1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,359 So once in a while, in a Q and A or in a video, 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:09,359 I will mention in passing something like subtle bodies. Usually the context where 3 00:00:09,359 --> 00:00:12,880 I will mention that is when we talk about angels and the manner in which 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:17,920 the church fathers describe angels. And so I thought I could maybe give some 5 00:00:18,039 --> 00:00:22,440 of my own insight on this question. Now, it's important to understand that 6 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:28,879 my insight is mostly there to help connect the ancient way of thinking with a 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,640 more contemporary way of thinking, because sometimes we look at the ancient way of 8 00:00:32,719 --> 00:00:37,880 thinking and we're such materialists that we struggle to see what it is that the 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:43,119 fathers or the ancients are referring to when they talk about something like subtle bodies. 10 00:00:54,640 --> 00:01:07,640 This is Jonathan Peshel, Welcome to the symbolic world. And so, 11 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:11,680 first of all, what are we talking about when we were talking about subtle 12 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,760 bodies. So the idea is that there are some beings and angels are the 13 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:19,719 way that it is usually described that do not have corporeal bodies like we They 14 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:27,560 don't have physical bodies like we do, but they're not also completely spiritual. 15 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:34,519 That is, they exist in a kind of intermediary realm in which they have 16 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,120 what we could call or what the Church Fathers call subtle bodies. Now, 17 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,760 the Church Fathers don't completely agree on this. You'll find obviously different types of 18 00:01:42,799 --> 00:01:48,760 descriptions. And some of the Fathers tend to oppose materiality and immateriality very clearly, 19 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:53,319 and so in that sense they'll say angels are immaterial. But sometimes there's 20 00:01:53,359 --> 00:01:57,959 an intermediary like you talk about let's say spirit, soul and body. Mind 21 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:01,079 soul and body, that's how you translate it. But sometimes there's like a 22 00:02:01,079 --> 00:02:07,519 triple idea, and you have this in between space, which is what we 23 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,680 could call the space of subtle bodies. Now I'm going to read a little 24 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,159 text from you from Saint John Damascene, and it'll help you see why it 25 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:21,360 is that it can cause some confusion, all right, And so so here's 26 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,960 Saint John Demoscene on angels. So he says that that God he himself and 27 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,719 the maker and creator of the angels. He is the maker and the creative 28 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:31,319 of the angels. So he brought them out of nothing into being and created 29 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:37,400 them after his own image, an incorporeal race, a sort of spirit of 30 00:02:37,759 --> 00:02:42,080 immaterial fire. In the words of the Divine David. He makes his angels 31 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,560 spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Now, notice already the 32 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:51,400 problem that we've got here. Now, you know, we say angels are 33 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,879 wind and fire, and so the way that we understand wind and fire is 34 00:02:57,039 --> 00:03:00,639 that they are material things. And so we have lost in some manner the 35 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:06,439 analogy that the ancients used to use about the things which were invisible, the 36 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:12,199 things which were ungraspable even in the physical world, as ways to signify that 37 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,360 which is immaterial in the strict sense, that is, things that don't have 38 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,560 bodies, like ideas, like you know, like virtues, like you know, 39 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:27,639 the things that activate bodies, they themselves are not embodied. You could 40 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,840 say they don't have bodies. But and so you can see already the problem. 41 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:34,639 So it's like, you know, these angels are made of wind and 42 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,120 fire, and so already materialists can read that and think, well, they 43 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,759 are material. They do have bodies, they're made of wind and fire. 44 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:46,240 But you can see even he makes this effort to say that they are a 45 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:52,800 sort of spirit of immaterial fire, right, and so he's using the analogy 46 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:58,199 of the physical world to describe something which is incorporeal in the strict sense. 47 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:04,039 Okay, and so he later goes on to try to explain this, and 48 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:11,120 it's difficult, right, because he says, the angel's nature is rational and 49 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,759 intelligent and endowed with free will, changeable in will, for all that is 50 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,680 created is changeable, and only that which is uncreated is unchangeable. And so 51 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:26,639 the very definition of creation is that it is changeable. Only God is completely 52 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,000 unchangeable, all right. And then he continues on to describe this, saying 53 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,399 that they can turn towards goodness or towards evil, but they are not susceptible 54 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:40,480 to repentance, because the angels are incorporeal, all right. So here is 55 00:04:40,519 --> 00:04:44,000 a good description of something that can confuse someone. And so he says, 56 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:48,680 talking about angels again, seeing that they are minds, they are in mental 57 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:55,120 places. They are not circumscribed after the fashion of a body, for they 58 00:04:55,399 --> 00:04:59,680 have not a bodily formed by nature, nor are they extended in three dimensions. 59 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:05,079 But whatever posts they may be assigned there, they are present after the 60 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,319 manner of a mind and energized, and cannot be present and energized in various 61 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:14,959 places at the same time. And so you know, this can cause serious 62 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:17,920 confusion because you can think, well that means that angels are You might think 63 00:05:17,959 --> 00:05:21,800 that it means that angels are physically located, that they have that they are 64 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,519 in certain places in certain time, but that's not what he's saying. Saying, 65 00:05:26,519 --> 00:05:30,600 there are in mental places, and they are circumscribed by mental places. 66 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,560 And so, you know the idea, you could understand it very simply that 67 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:39,600 you know something, you know a mental activator. Let's say the Angel of 68 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:46,959 of of a virtue. Let's say the Angel of hope cannot also be the 69 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:54,920 angel of faith because they are circumscribed by their an activating principle for hope, 70 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,399 for that aspect of reality. That is, they're given a role. They 71 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:01,680 have a role in the world to manage certain aspects of reality, and they 72 00:06:01,879 --> 00:06:08,959 are circumscribed by that role, not circumscribed physically in the world. But it's 73 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,800 because we're so not used to thinking that way, we struggle to understand what 74 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:17,439 it is that we mean. And so, you know, that's why many 75 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:24,920 of the church fathers will talk about the notion that angels have what we call 76 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,160 subtle bodies, which is that they're not completely incorporeal in some ways, God 77 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:39,439 only is completely incorporeal, but that their bodies are not also circumscribed in flesh, 78 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,720 but they have more fluid bodies, more subtle bodies, and so it's 79 00:06:44,759 --> 00:06:47,319 difficult again. And one of the reasons why I'm talking about this is because 80 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:53,120 I was reading Perilandria again and there's some really wonderful C. S. Lewis's 81 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:58,040 book, and there's some wonderful insights in that book, and also out of 82 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,720 a silent out of the silent planet, there's some wonderful insights, but some 83 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:05,519 of them can be very, in my opinion, can be misleading because the 84 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:13,959 perception of these angels is really uses a lot of material But maybe he's doing 85 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:16,040 it just because he knows the story and there's no other way to talk about 86 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,519 it. But he talks about, you know, beings that are kind of 87 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,879 made of light, almost in a physical way. It seems like that's what 88 00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:28,079 he seems to be describing. That are you know, that are kind of 89 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,399 like another dimensions of all that kind of stuff. But I think that when 90 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:35,519 we go down that line too much as materialists, we lose an understanding of 91 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,839 what it is that we can mean by a body of light or a body 92 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:44,639 a subtle body. You know, it's like a body of light means that 93 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,040 it's a body that projects meaning onto other bodies. It's a body, a 94 00:07:49,079 --> 00:07:55,959 spiritual body that is circumscribed because it's doing a certain thing. But it's also 95 00:07:56,079 --> 00:08:00,639 but it's projecting light on other bodies, it's making sense of their things. 96 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,000 And so you can understand. And so we all, like you know, 97 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:07,519 you, all of us have subtle bodies in that sense, all of us 98 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,560 also have a physical body, but also a subtle body that is ways that 99 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:18,959 we influence the world without being directly physically connected to them. And so our 100 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:24,560 very capacity to make meaning is in some ways a form of subtle body. 101 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,480 So a good example would be, you know, when you look at, 102 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,559 you know, stories of fairy tales or kind of fantasy stories where they talk 103 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,559 about magicians who act at a distance, you know, And so you could 104 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:43,120 come up with really elaborate, you know, weird kind of New Age materialists 105 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,960 spiritualist ideas about some like subtle substance right with it. Edgar Case came up 106 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,159 with the idea of ectoplasm, which is an actual physical substance, by the 107 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,519 way, which is a subtler physical substance that can make the magician, you 108 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,480 know, act at a distance like all that kind of nonsense. But the 109 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,799 idea of action at a distance through a subtle body is something that you do 110 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,000 every single day and it is quite normal. All you need to do to 111 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,960 experience it is to, I don't know, ask your child to bring you 112 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,559 a glass of water, and then watch the child bring you a glass of 113 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,240 water. That is a subtle body. That is action at a distance through 114 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:28,600 meaning making, through intelligence and not through actual physical you know, like physically 115 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,720 taking your child to the water and then having them bring the water to you. 116 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,039 You are using your subtle body to affect reality. And so that is 117 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,120 the best way to kind of understand what subtle bodies are. They are related 118 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:46,360 to meaning, they're related to meaning making, and they energize, you know, 119 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:52,559 like a mind energizes a body. They energize bodies to move according to 120 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,519 the role that they play, according to the intelligence that they participate in. 121 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,279 And so that is honestly, like they're just the best way to understand a 122 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:05,720 subtle body. So you can think about subtle bodies like try to find example 123 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,759 examples of subtle bodies in the world. And so a story, for example, 124 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:16,000 is a subtle body. A story is not encompassed in the world. 125 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,080 You can't. You know, you can write down the story, but even 126 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,559 the writing down of it is not the story. The story is a series 127 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:28,679 of a series of intelligent points that are brought together in a coherent whole, 128 00:10:30,279 --> 00:10:33,960 and that has an effect on people. And so if I tell a story, 129 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:39,200 I can affect you through my subtle body so that it will change the 130 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,840 way that you act. I can bring you under my you know, under 131 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:50,200 my spell if you will, or under my management by using tools of meaning 132 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:56,039 and tools of intelligent projecting. Right, And so that is the kind of 133 00:10:56,039 --> 00:10:58,159 the way to understand it. So, you know, you could say something 134 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:05,559 like, let's say, especially the notion of angels that often especially the lower 135 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,799 angels, right, So let's say the angels and the archangels and the guardian 136 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,720 angels. You know, we in some ways are their bodies, you know, 137 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,120 because they act on us. They receive from God and they act on 138 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:24,440 us, and then we embody the patterns that they rule over as we function 139 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,759 the world. But it's a dangerous way. It's a dangerous to think that 140 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,759 that's the only way to understand it, because the higher levels of angels, 141 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:39,080 they don't act directly on us. They act through other angels on the bodies, 142 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,720 and they also act through intelligent means from humans or to other humans. 143 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:48,120 And so very very high angels are so subtle that the type of pattern that 144 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:52,600 they manage is so high that it manages other patterns. It's the best way 145 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:58,080 to understand it. And so it's like one angel has other angels below them, 146 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,639 and then those angels all act on the world, et cetera, et 147 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,440 cetera, until you get to the corporeal world, which is managed by this 148 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:15,080 hierarchy of agency above it, a hierarchy of patterns that comes down upon reality. 149 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:20,159 And so you could say that all these other levels are in some ways 150 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,240 the bodies of the higher beings, but they are not necessarily corporeal. They're 151 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:30,519 not necessarily physical bodies that extend in the three dimensions. Saint John Damistein says 152 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,679 that they don't extend in three dimensions. You know, the angel of the 153 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:41,399 Angel of Hope does not extend in three dimensions. It acts through us and 154 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:45,200 it finds, you know, it finds its anchor through us. But the 155 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:50,720 way that it acts on us is like a mind energizing the world. And 156 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:54,240 so I think it's important. I hope that you can kind of understand. 157 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,399 And it would be a good example to think of examples of subtle bodies like, 158 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,559 for example, you know, if you if you write books, even 159 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,799 the Internet is very much a participation a subtle body. That is the type 160 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,279 of influence that you have online by writing posts, by posting things, by 161 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:18,320 you know, writing comments. These are subtle influences. They're not They're not 162 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,639 like how can I say, there's not like me hitting someone over the head 163 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,320 with a baseball bat, their action at a distance. There's subtle, different, 164 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,679 subtle influences that are an extension of my own subtle body. And so 165 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,639 a good way to understand, let's say, the subtle body, is to 166 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:41,320 understand the notion that one part of the extension of me, one part of 167 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,279 the manifestation of me is one which is related to meaning and to you know, 168 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:50,440 to meaning making. That's a good way to understand it to spirit in 169 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,039 that sense. And what's also, let's say, the last part of what 170 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,480 I want to say is that although I'm pushing towards helping you see the difference, 171 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:05,120 right to not confuse when the when the Holy Fathers say something like that 172 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:11,360 the angels are made of immaterial fire to not confuse it with a type of 173 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,960 corporeality, you know in a science fiction way that you know they're they're there, 174 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,919 but they're in another dimension. Of that kind of nonsense. It really 175 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:26,600 is about how minds activate bodies. But it's not completely disconnected from the analogies 176 00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:31,519 that are used. And that's probably what makes it so difficult for us to 177 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,960 understand it is that in some ways some of the analogies that we use are 178 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:43,279 proper are proper analogies because they are really direct images of what the incorporeal aspect 179 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,720 is representing. So let me give you an example. It's very simple, 180 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,600 which is that in the Orthodox Church we have a practice which is called the 181 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:58,120 Jesus prayer, and the Jesus prayer is a is a prayer that you repeat, 182 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:00,639 Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mer see on me a 183 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,159 sinner. And in the traditional ancient practice, the monks would look at their 184 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:11,240 navel or look at their center, and then they would breathe in at the 185 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:13,639 first part of the prayer. They would breathe out in the second part of 186 00:15:13,639 --> 00:15:18,720 the prayer, and through that breathing and rhythm they would try to make the 187 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:26,639 prayer enter into their heart, and the prayer would align with their heartbeat, 188 00:15:26,679 --> 00:15:31,799 so that in some ways their heartbeat was becoming the prayer. And so now 189 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,639 you have two things going on here. On the one hand, you have 190 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:41,080 the physical action, which is the repetition of the prayer, the breathing, 191 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,720 the standing still, the looking at your center right, the coordination of breathing 192 00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:52,000 in spirit and then pushing it down through attention, you know, like breathing 193 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:58,559 and pushing the breath down into your center with the prayer. That's a physical 194 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,919 action that you're doing. But as you're doing that, you are also doing 195 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:07,639 the subtle action, which is, you know, in a more in a 196 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,919 more kind of psychological sense, or in a more purely spiritual sense, you 197 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:18,159 are trying to make that prayer enter into your center of your being. You're 198 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,960 trying to replace all the flighty thoughts, all the all the all the kind 199 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,720 of distractions that you have in your in your being and replace it with that 200 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:36,360 prayer. And so the physical action of doing this practice is aligned with the 201 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:41,200 more you know, subtle action of entering the prayer and the thought of Lord 202 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,840 Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner, bringing that past your thoughts 203 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:51,000 into your core, into the center of your being, and in some ways 204 00:16:51,039 --> 00:16:55,600 replacing your thoughts, replacing all the distraction, all the chaos or the passions 205 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,799 with that prayer, so that it becomes in some ways the basic pattern by 206 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:04,319 which you exist, and the pattern of the prayer itself, that is the 207 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:10,160 pattern by which you should exist. Which is, right, an invocation of 208 00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:15,319 Christ, right, an invocation of the ideal, and then a recognition of 209 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:19,640 my distant from the ideal. Right, And so it's like that's actually the 210 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:25,119 pattern of reality. It's a little it's a little hero's journey, right, 211 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,240 It's like, you know, you recognize your loss, and you come back 212 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:32,680 to the invocation you invoke, you recognize your your distance, and then you 213 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,680 try to remember and come back to Christ. So the idea of remembering God 214 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:40,319 through this prayer, all these things are all spiritual things that we do. 215 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,279 They're all a spiritual practice that we do. But they are in line with 216 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:52,039 the analogical physical action that we do. And that is what makes the subtle 217 00:17:52,079 --> 00:18:00,640 body question the most difficult to understand is that it is not completely disc connected 218 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,920 from the spiritual part. The analogies are not arbitrary, they are important, 219 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,839 and they can sometimes be very strict analogy between the two. And so that 220 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,680 means that that means some things that might be a little tricky for materialists and 221 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:22,799 modernists to understand. That means that when someone experiences this type of agency, 222 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:30,160 this type of subtle being, it is possible that they experience them in a 223 00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:36,519 way that is very close to or really is a seeing or a hearing or 224 00:18:36,559 --> 00:18:44,559 a physical manifestation, because the analogy between the physical manifestation and the spiritual meaning 225 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,640 is not completely arbitrary and impossible. So what that means is that it is 226 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:55,000 possible to see an angel, it is possible to hear, you know, 227 00:18:55,519 --> 00:19:00,880 an angel. All these things are possible, and they don't take away from 228 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,480 the understanding that the way that it happens is through a kind of analogy. 229 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:11,920 That is, it is pointing towards true incomport incorporealness and true spiritual realities. 230 00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:15,839 And like I said, I know that that last part is the part that 231 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:19,960 might stretch you beyond your limit. But if you can't go there yet, 232 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,319 you can't go all the way there, you might as well at least try 233 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:30,200 to understand the first part, and that you know, understand that some of 234 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,640 these things are documented in the sense. Let me give you an example of 235 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,839 an interesting documented case. Forget the name of the missionary, but there was 236 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,279 a missionary who went I think it was in Papua New Guinea or somewhere in 237 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:47,440 the Third World. I heard this from Paul Vanderklay, and then I found 238 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,440 the story later that forget where I saw it, though. So this missionary 239 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,799 is there with these people from another culture, like a more traditional culture, 240 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,319 and the people from the culture say, you know, so, you know, 241 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,200 the goddess is appearing at this place right now. The goddess is there, 242 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,359 and the missionary is like, you know whatever, and so they like 243 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,759 take the man, the missionary to the place where the goddess is appearing, 244 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,599 and they're like, look, the goddess is right there. The goddess is 245 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:19,599 there on the beach, and everybody can see her. But the missionary can't 246 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,000 see her. He can't see the goddess. And so, you know, 247 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:27,720 you could come to two conclusions, which is one, everybody is delusional. 248 00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:33,200 Everybody is having a delusion. Okay, you can come to another conclusion, 249 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:41,400 which is that those people have been trained to let's say, notice subtle patterns 250 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:49,480 in reality through which they're capable of seeing with their eyes or the eyes of 251 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:56,799 their heart. At least they're able to see the agency manifesting itself in front 252 00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:00,839 of them as the goddess itself. Yea, And so all right, So 253 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,319 I don't think I've ever pushed you guys as far as I'm doing now, 254 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:10,720 But you know, I think that meditate on it, think about it, 255 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:15,079 and you'll see that, you know, if you watch the discussion where I've 256 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,119 talked about with Rap Kelly, where we talked about the possibility of seeing a 257 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,799 face in the clouds and that that face could speak to people, and that 258 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,440 that face could speak to a group of people they could all see it and 259 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:33,519 it would all be in some ways a principality communicating with them, and that 260 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:38,000 that is completely possible, and that it is not doesn't contradict a kind of 261 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:45,400 more material causalities. It has to do with the capacity to notice subtle patterns 262 00:21:45,759 --> 00:21:48,200 that are kind of manifesting themselves in the world. So anyways, I think 263 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,039 I've seen it said enough, and I think I've kind of pushed you enough. 264 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:53,799 Feel free to comment and to engage in the discussion. If you want 265 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,279 to also engage in the discussion on the circle community of the Symbolic World that 266 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:03,799 could be fun to do and so yeah. So I hope you enjoyed this 267 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,799 and I hope that it was at least a little useful to you, and 268 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:08,720 I will talk to you very soon. Bye bye. If you enjoy these 269 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:14,200 videos and podcasts, please go to the symbolic world dot com website and see 270 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,319 how you can support what we're doing. 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