WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:12.199
It's Maria's MutS and Stuff, a
great idea i ARD Radio. Welcome to

2
00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:17.280
Maria's MutS and Stuff and with me
is Sandra Postel. She is the director

3
00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:22.320
of Global Water Policy Project as well
as the co founder. She's written many,

4
00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:26.399
many, many books about her passion, which is fresh water. So

5
00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:33.159
we're here to chat about water today
and National Geographic Kids book. Water very

6
00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:37.320
important thing in our lives that I
think many people don't realize. So Sandra,

7
00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:41.799
thank you for talking with me today. Oh it's a pleasure to be

8
00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.280
here. Thank you, thank you. So first let's explain, help my

9
00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:53.560
listeners understand. Explain to me what
Global Water Policy Project is exactly. Well,

10
00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:58.119
it's it's basically an effort to connect
the dots between the science and the

11
00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.439
policy and the practice around water and
understand how water, you know, influences

12
00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:10.079
agriculture and the environment, and even
you know, international relations as water and

13
00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:14.719
rivers flows between countries and states.
So it really covers a lot of ground.

14
00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:19.959
But it's all about how we can
have a more secure water future for

15
00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:23.599
both human societies as well as the
natural world. Right, I mean,

16
00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:27.719
water is a very very important thing
even for us, just as humans and

17
00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:32.280
living on a daily basis, which
I think sometimes people don't realize, you

18
00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:38.319
know, something will go wrong and
it's because they're dehydrated. Yeah, I

19
00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.079
mean water is central to good health. Exactly. We can go a lot

20
00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:47.560
longer without food than we can go
without water. Water is critical to life,

21
00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:49.840
right, No, of course,
of course. So with the National

22
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:56.920
Geographic Kids Book Water, it was
this book put together basically to enlighten kids.

23
00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:01.719
So I mean, since there are
future and the plant, we're handing

24
00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:06.239
them a planet that needs some help. I guess is a wake up call

25
00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:12.879
for children. We are handing the
next generations a planet that needs some help.

26
00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:17.479
Absolutely well put thank you. I
think the and I think the you

27
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:23.360
know, the hope for the book
is really to engage more people, Um,

28
00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:27.400
you know, kids, their families, their parents, their grandparents in

29
00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.240
this water challenge. You know that's
really kind of take it on. Um.

30
00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:34.400
You know, we all sort of
take water for granted. It comes

31
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:36.840
out of the tap for most of
us, and there it is. But

32
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.879
when we look beyond, it's it's
a big challenge to have enough water for

33
00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:45.319
all the things we need it for
and a healthy world around us at the

34
00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:49.759
same time. So I think the
hope is to have more kids identify as

35
00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:54.080
water warriors and really you know,
look to conservation and protection of water as

36
00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:57.520
as a big part of what they
do. Right, Oh, I love

37
00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:01.039
that water warriors. That's perfect.
So I would I mean, I'm guessing

38
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:06.000
or if this is obvious, that
our biggest challenge or the biggest problem with

39
00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.599
water is it's that arm waters are
polluted, polluted, whether it's oceans,

40
00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:14.919
lakes, rivers that they're polluted.
Is that correct? Or is there a

41
00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:20.960
worse problem that they're drying up?
Well, it's both. Yeah, pollution

42
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.039
is certainly a problem. And you
know, when I was a kid,

43
00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:28.199
we're worried about, you know,
just the pollution of rivers. It was

44
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:32.319
so bad that we had rivers like
the Kayahoga in Ohio catching fire from the

45
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:36.879
oil slits on top and so on. We made some progress, We've made

46
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:38.800
a lot of progress, but there's
still pollution, of course, that we're

47
00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:44.479
worried about. We're worried about peace
as we're worried about nitrogen and phosphorus causing

48
00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:49.599
these algal blooms and our lakes and
coastal bays and so on. The pollution

49
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:55.840
is absolutely a problem to be addressed
and something we're very concerned about plastic pollutions.

50
00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.719
But you raised another important issue,
which is the supply of water and

51
00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.960
the fact that in many places where
taking more water than nature is putting back

52
00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:11.560
in, so we're depleting it and
that's just not sustainable in the long term.

53
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.039
You know, we're seeing this with
groundwater, which literally is out of

54
00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:17.800
sight, out of mind, and
so we you know, we pump more

55
00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:23.879
water out than is being recharged by
actual rainfall, and so that supply is

56
00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:29.040
diminishing. And that's a concern,
especially with more drought, because when the

57
00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.720
rivers are drying up and the reservoirs
are shrinking, where do we turn for

58
00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:40.759
water? We often turn to our
underground supply. In groundwater depleted that then

59
00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.560
that's a bigger problem. Sure.
Sure, And I'm guessing again that the

60
00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.360
droughts and everything. How how drastic
the weather. I feel like the past

61
00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:55.240
couple of years that are the weather
across the country. It's just so drastic,

62
00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:00.399
especially in places that don't usually have
that tie. Meaning it's snowing in

63
00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:08.680
Texas, or it's really hot in
a place that's usually very cold. And

64
00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.480
I guess this is all the result
of climate change, which is why we

65
00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:16.319
have the droughts where we normally wouldn't
have that and places are drying up.

66
00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.879
Is that correct, Yeah, we
have to use extremes. You know,

67
00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:27.920
we can't always say for sure that
a particular weather event is a result of

68
00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.800
climate change. We're getting you know, scientists are getting better at being able

69
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:35.040
to do the analyzes that allow us
to say that this event, whether it's

70
00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:40.639
a drought or a flood, the
probability was much higher because of climate change.

71
00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:44.199
We're are getting better at that kind
of attribution science as it's called.

72
00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.120
So we can't always tell. But
but you're absolutely right that what we expect

73
00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.759
is what we're starting to see,
which is that we're going to have more

74
00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:57.319
extremes, so we have more extreme
throughout. You know, the Colorado River

75
00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.879
has been in the news this week, and that's basin has been basically in

76
00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:08.040
a twenty three year drought. It's
started around two thousand. There have been

77
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:12.720
a you know, some years of
respite with more rain and snowpack, but

78
00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.319
for the most part it's been a
twenty three year drought, which is the

79
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.160
worst on record, the worst in
twelve hundred years as far as we can

80
00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:24.959
tell. So this is a big
deal. And and then you point to

81
00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:30.120
the floods. You know, we
had tremendous floods in Houston in twenty seventeen

82
00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:35.839
with Hurricane Harvey, Florida with Hurricane
Irma, Puerto Rico with Hurricane Maria,

83
00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:41.079
and then many since then. And
these are worse than we've come to expect,

84
00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.879
you know. Plus we tend to
be living in harm's way a little

85
00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.319
bit more in the floodplains of rivers
and so on. So so it's a

86
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:51.439
big challenge. And you know in
building that you know, resilience to these

87
00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:58.279
climate impacts is is going to be
very important, both droughts and floods and

88
00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:02.199
wildfires which are often in the headwaters
of our drinking water supplies and so on,

89
00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:09.079
right right, So, I mean, if there's one, there are

90
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.079
so I feel like there are so
many things that people can do to help

91
00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.399
this, because I feel like now
is the time it really needs to be

92
00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.000
taken seriously, obviously by adults,
but as well as children, which is

93
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:24.079
where the book is very helpful for
children to learn. But if there was

94
00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.120
maybe I don't even know if there
is an answer to this, that there's

95
00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:31.600
one one thing that everyone who is
listening right now can do that they might

96
00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:36.040
not be doing to help the water
situation. Or is there one thing?

97
00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:40.240
I mean, maybe there's not an
answer to that. I don't know,

98
00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:44.680
well the kind of there is.
I mean, I think we can all

99
00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.680
plug in, you know, in
the way that we most identify. Right.

100
00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:51.720
But the basic challenge in my mind
has two parts, and you know,

101
00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.439
one is to shrink our human water
footprint. You know, the reality

102
00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:01.319
is water on Earth is finite.
There's only so much there and because human

103
00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:07.519
population has risen so much now to
now eight billions, our demands for water

104
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:13.439
have increased. So so we can
figure out how to shrink that human water

105
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.759
footprint. It can't keep getting bigger
because water's finite, Right, We've got

106
00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.480
to figure that out, and there's
a lot of a lot of ways to

107
00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:22.680
do that. We can look at
our personal water footprints. You know,

108
00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.800
what is our diet consists of how
much water does it take to to produce

109
00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.720
the diets that we eat. We
can probably change our diet a bit,

110
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.279
tweak it a bit, and use
less water, right. We can We

111
00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:39.519
can look at our energy use and
energy it takes water to create energy,

112
00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.360
but turning off the lights. Turning
off anything that we're not using saves water.

113
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.720
We can think about our material life, right, we can think about

114
00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:54.799
buying used things rather than new things, which and you know, so there's

115
00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:56.639
a lot that we can do if
we look at our personal water footprint.

116
00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.240
And again we can feel like,
well, I'm just you know, just

117
00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.120
one person, what difference does that
make? But if you multiply that by

118
00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:09.159
ten hundreds, you know, millions
of people, well that creates a difference.

119
00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:13.360
And that's the other things to get
the word out talk about water.

120
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.360
You know, we're so accustomed to
water just coming out of the tap that

121
00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:22.679
we don't think of it very often
as an issue unless you have a pollution

122
00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.000
problem. That's very evident to us, right, right, exact thing about

123
00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.480
it, and you realize, yeah, realizing and then the second piece,

124
00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:33.000
so shrink that water footprint and then
return some water to the natural world.

125
00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:39.360
The natural world is hurting very badly, and we need to return water there

126
00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:46.279
in very strategic ways. And the
good message there is that nature is resilient.

127
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:52.720
If we give water back to nature
again in strategic ways, it will

128
00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:58.120
bounce back and life will come back. We have taken down in the United

129
00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:03.840
States overall, we have removed sixteen
hundred dams over the last thirty years,

130
00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.159
Dams that were no longer really doing, you know, used for their intended

131
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.639
purpose, right, maybe they were
built in the nineteenth centuries for textile mills

132
00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.080
in New England and so on.
A lot of those dams have come down

133
00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.440
because they're unsafe or unnecessary. Well, that has opened up miles and miles

134
00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.039
and miles of river for habitat,
for fish to come back and aquatic life

135
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.879
to come back, and we do
see it come back, often faster than

136
00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.240
we would have imagined. We've seen
large dams come down in Washington State on

137
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:39.039
the Ilowa River where you know,
four thousand nut salmon came back within a

138
00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.799
few months, So you can see
this resilience. We've seen it in dams

139
00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:48.240
coming down in Maine and in many
places where life comes back. To me,

140
00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.720
that that creates an honest hope that
if we are able to do this

141
00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:58.200
to shrink our human water footprint,
would save that water, return some of

142
00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.679
it to nature. We can establish
auld better balance for the web of life

143
00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.399
that we're a part of. And
I think that's a really important message,

144
00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.679
and to me, it's where the
inspiration comes from that that we can you

145
00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.879
know, we can build that kind
of security for ourselves and to the natural

146
00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.879
world we're part of, sure,
I mean, because that's what we need

147
00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:24.399
for the humanity to survive really and
to continue. That's right. You know,

148
00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.399
we think of ourselves as separate from
but we're not. We're part of

149
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.360
this, of this web of life. And you know, if we're in

150
00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:33.759
a dry area and we have,
you know, a very thirsty green lawn,

151
00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.799
but what about you know, changing
some of that lawn out for native

152
00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:43.639
plants that brought local flora and fauna
and uses less water and is maybe good

153
00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:48.559
for the local species. Um pollinator
plants that are good for bees would be

154
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.840
a great thing to think about,
right, sure, sure, So,

155
00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.720
so there's a lot we can do
right in our own yards to be part

156
00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:58.960
of the solution. And again,
it seems like a drop in the bucket,

157
00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.600
but if you add many drops in
the bucket, you start to get

158
00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:05.879
something, right. Yeah, I
mean, there's a reason why there's that

159
00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.600
saying it takes a village, you
know, and I know it takes a

160
00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.559
village. So if we all do
our part, I mean, it's True's

161
00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:15.360
so funny because I was going to
bring up about people watering their lawns because

162
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.559
it makes me crazy when as we
get into the summer months, It's like,

163
00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.000
why are you wasting all that water? Who cares if your lawn is

164
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.759
you know, velvety green or a
little bit brown, But you're right,

165
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.120
just replace it, you know,
and put bushes and plants and flowers,

166
00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.799
because I feel like it's such a
waste all summer and spring because everybody's you

167
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:41.639
know, yeah, you know,
I think Las Vegas, some of the

168
00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:46.480
innicipal water utilities in the West will
actually pay you to rip out your lawn

169
00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.320
and put in something more native.
So nice of it. Yeah, cash

170
00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:54.360
for grass program. They'll give you
cash for the grass. Right, Well,

171
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.480
that's a great idea to put in
something. Yeah, yeah, that's

172
00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.519
that's made a difference. And I'll
quirky Las Vegas, you know, some

173
00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:03.879
of the Western cities have done this
and it helps people, you know,

174
00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:09.519
to just reorient their their landscape.
Sure, and I love when I see

175
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.120
a house that has you know,
the like a cement path going to the

176
00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.519
door, but they have all these
different like bushes and they have plants,

177
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.120
like exotic plants or just it's just
it's very it's very unique, I think,

178
00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.120
and it stands out and creative and
I just like it a lot better

179
00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.679
than just a green lawn, you
know, I mean, yeah, yeah,

180
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:33.840
no, it's true. So um
so well, I thank you because

181
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:37.759
you are just so so chock full
of information. And I know that we

182
00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:39.279
have a time limit, because I
would love to talk to you even more

183
00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.799
and more. But I know that
there were some silly things. I figured

184
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.240
let's leave on like a silly note. Um, is there are there any

185
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:52.960
myths or something about water that we've
all thought since we were little kids and

186
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.480
it's not true at all, like
something silly or at all? Yeah,

187
00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:03.120
it's funny, it's about that.
What's silly about One of the things that

188
00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.759
I think, it's just kind of
inspiring that I think about and I think

189
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:11.240
others have found these too, is
the idea of, you know, the

190
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.960
dinosaurs drinking some of the same water
we might have used to make our tea

191
00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.679
this morning, right, And yeah, yeah, it's this fascination you know

192
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.159
that water is just it's because it's
finite. It's cycles all the time,

193
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:28.679
across across the ages, across space, and so it's in a way it's

194
00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:33.879
sort of very connecting realization, right
that the molecules that are in our life

195
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.600
today could have also been in the
lives of the dinosaurs, and they could

196
00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:41.240
have drunk the same water we're drinking
today, you know, at different time,

197
00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:46.320
different space. But water is always
cycling, right, and it's it's

198
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.679
a marble really of the Earth.
It is to me, it's Earth's greatest

199
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.759
gift, this water cycle. It's
we learned about it probably in second or

200
00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:56.879
third or fourth grade, and then
we sort of forget about it. But

201
00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.559
it is really a magic thing,
and it's we're so fortunate to live on

202
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.639
a planet that has this miraculous water
cycle. Sure, and the trick is

203
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.200
to preserve it, protect it,
restore it, and keep it going absolutely,

204
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.639
And I think that too often,
and you make such a valid point

205
00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.320
because I feel like waters just taken
for granted by most people. They don't

206
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.960
really You're right, they don't think
about it until it doesn't come out of

207
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.279
their faucet, right, yeah,
yeah, yeah, And to really start

208
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.559
to appreciate all that it's doing,
whether we're seeing it or not, you

209
00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:30.039
know, it's keeping everything going right. Right. Well, I thank you

210
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:31.759
so much for all that you do. I thank you for your information and

211
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:39.279
your knowledge. Sandro Postel from Global
Water Policy Project along with nat GEO kids

212
00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.000
book Water, which I think my
listeners would love to pick up because it's

213
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.480
it's great. It's it's a book. I mean it is for kids,

214
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:48.679
but I'm enjoying reading it and I'm
not a kid, So so thank you.

215
00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.080
Absolutely yeah, you're come. It's
a great place to dive in.

216
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.159
Literally absolutely absolutely well. Thank you
again for doing all that you do,

217
00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.240
Sandra, and thanks for talking with
us today. Thank you, appreciate it.

218
00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:10.440
Never been a reader operator and this
mort see you reader for Gator