What is up, fellow thermonuclear a efforts. I am dam Fa Valley coming
at you with the one, the only, the highly sought after, hard
to get Adam Frommel who has never been on this podcast before, has never
had anything to do with it whatsoever except that's a lie. Follow him on
Twitter at Framo zero nine. He is currently basically just running the show at
Sportscasting right now, so check them out as well. He is also a
two time like former co host of The Hardwood Knox and we still have his
handles in. They're they're not the headers, but they're just they're in our
descriptions as well. So he is he is. He is Hardwoo Knox.
It's in his blood. Welcome back to Adam Framo. First time we podcast
in a few months. I'm excited. I'm off the wall. I can't
even talk. I'm so excited. FRO how are you doing? What a
warm welcome? It's been so long though, I forgot what is it?
What is a podcast? I don't know either. It's something that some people
listen to when the podcast is popular, so they don't listen to this one
all that often. But for the dozens of listeners that we have we do
it for you exactly. I'm just confused because I'm like seeing your face and
you know, since I left, like you've taken all the YouTube stuff and
the TikTok stuff and the Instagram stuff up to that next level impressive stuff,
like definitely, definitely kind words. I do not deserve it. It's amazing
what you can do when you don't prioritize the rest of your life. Let
me just tell you that as you also, as you well know, I
am excited to this feels like, I don't know, it feels like there
should be confetti or something. I'm sure, I'm sure the listeners are excited.
But I did ask you to come on so that we could do backcourt
rankings and during next season, just because why not. It was a it
was a question we had after the Calves trade from one of our listeners,
and I didn't think it was worth being a mail bag question. It feels
like not just an entire podcast, but a two part podcast, so I
asked you to do it. It's going to be broken into two parts.
We will do the bottom fifteen first, work our way up. We have
composite rankings. We will have our individual rankings to the side of that for
people who are watching on YouTube, and then they will also be tears to
help you follow along. This is all very if you get offended, like
I'm sorry, but this was This was one really hard, and two this
is just a casual basketball conversation. We're trying to project ahead. Some of
these might change hashtag Utah Jazz. We have no idea what's going to go
on with their back coordinat even the Lakers as well. But it was quite
an undertaking, easier than the front line, which I started to do and
then junked because I don't have any desired to have to look at it.
Three people right before we kind of cannonball in, how did you find this
exercise? Oh, it's impossible. You know. We have the same mentality
with all these always we always have where it's like we just spend way too
much time, you know, worrying over the minute details and whether a team
should be sixteen or seventeen and to lose sleep over it, and it was
no different this time around. I mean, I'm convinced that you brought me
on this episode solely for the Google sheets expertise that I could try to bring
to the table rather than the actual basketball stuff, but I'll take it either
way. I honestly forgot I was going to need it before you started working
your voodoo. Just before in court, I was like, I didn't have
any of this like tier and composite ranking stuff in my mind, so I
didn't ask you to come on for that reason. But now officially I'm happy
that I did. I just like kind of came on and took over,
like this was spreadsheet originally no longer that that's like par for how it used
to work around here, though, is that I'd make a spreadsheet that was
very low level and you would gussy it up for the better. So I'm
thankful. And just to reiterate, this is for the twenty twenty twenty three
season ahead, Like if you think that Jalen Suggs is going to be like
a five time MVP, that was not factored into this type of equation with
them, And for people that I following along on YouTube, I will change
the screen in just a few moments that you can see us unveil it,
because I know everyone's excited to watch that. But do you want to get
us started here by number thirty, which is this is the this is our
bottom tier, so it's tier six. I kind of feel like we have
to unveil thirty and twenty nine at the same time because we had a tie.
We talked about it before we started the show. I had one of
these teams thirtieth, the other twenty nine. You just had the opposite order.
So thirty for me was the San Antonio Spurs with Josh Primo and Devin
Vassell, and then we had the Lakers were in at twenty nine with Russell
Westbrook and Lonnie Walker. Although you could sub in Patrick Beverley if you really
wanted to, we're not counting Lebron James as a point guard for this episode.
To me, the Spurs came in in that final spot just because I
don't know that there's a star. I don't know that they're the creation and
comparing them directly to each other, since again we did have these two teams
tied in the composite rankings. It's the Russell Westbrook factor, where in all
likelihood he's going to continue to be that net negative, previous force who is
a shell of his old self. But but what if what if he does
accept a role that plays to his limitations and actually allows him to bring his
strengths to the forefront because there are still strengths. What if he buys in
on defense to some extent, because it's too late in the career for that
to happen fully, but if it happens a little bit, I think that
Russ alone has the highest upside of these four players for the twenty twenty three
season, and that just nudged them ever so slightly ahead, even though I
kind of feel like we could have had a seventh tier just for these two
teams, right, I mean, I gave it, I gave it to
you the Lakers tiebreaker here, but I'm just not confident in I hate the
Westbrook Lonnie Walker the fourth fit. I think if you played Beverly next to
Westbrook that might make more sense. I really just also don't have confidence that
this is going to be the Lakers backcourt anyway. And I'm higher on the
Spurs quite frankly. I know you mentioned you're worried about the shot creation.
I think Josh Primo brings enough of it. There's certainly you could wonder about
Devin Vassell, for sure, but I think Josh Primo has, like some
nice squishiness, wiggleness, who is off the dribble game, and so that
could help. And look, there might even be a down grade because we
don't know what they're starting five is gonna look like with this team, at
least I haven't seen it. So like if they go a little bit smaller
and Josh Richardson's in here instead of Devin Vassell, I don't know if that
would bump it up regardless, But I do think that the Spurs when you
sort of look at there are teams in front of them, and I would
say, like they're probably not built to pass much if any of them.
But this is a team that I think could move its way up because so
much about the players that we're using, even though Devin Vassell's entering year three,
they are still they skewed towards unknown, and as we find out more
about them, we could just become much much higher on them. But I'm
I'm a firm believer that's an Antonio's backcourt is going to be better than the
Lakers is because I think Russell Westbrook, even insofar as he tried to adapt
that points last season, I just think he's an actively detrimental player unless the
team it's building image is catered to what he does best and the Lakers aren't.
So you're counting on him to adapt and him adapting I don't even know
what that looks like because I can't picture him. You know, Is he
going to suddenly become a good jump shooter? Are we going to see him
set more more screens? He's gonna knocked down shots off the catch, become
a really accomplished cutter. So I just have a ton of questions there.
To me, it's one of those situations where the most likely outcome might be
the Spurs being marginally better than the Lakers, but the ceilings are drastically different
because we haven't seen enough from Primo or of a Cell yet. Even if
the Cell looks like he's already a nice role player, we haven't seen the
glimpses of startup. And if Westbrook does become a star cutter and commits on
the defensive end, I think the ceiling is high enough that, even if
it's not the most likely outcome, I'm pushing them slightly ahead here. Again,
it's fair, we're probably quipling. I think it's interesting that this next
team, though finished at number twenty eight ahead of both of these teams because
this team was hard and so we have the Orlando Magic at number twenty eight.
We both had them at number twenty eight, by the way, in
our own rankings. This was tough for me because Jalen Suggs is not coming
off a good rookie year. He did get injured, and they did they
shouldered. I saw some people say that he needed like more freedom in the
offense. He had plenty of freedom within the offense. I might argue that
they test him with doing too much and playing with Mark l Folds for a
full season, also having Pawlo ban Caro there to where you can streamline Jalen
Suggs's role where you're sort of he's not dabbling in on ball touches, but
he doesn't have to be your primary creator, and you can get him more
higher quality off ball looks. I just think we're in for a much better
sophomore season from him, and I still I'm just a big believer in kind
of the strength when he gets going down hill and his ability to absorb contact
even if the finishing is not always there. I think he will be able
to generate better separation going downhill and on his jumpers, and I just expect
him to be more efficient when you're looking at some of the shots that he
was taking last year. And could I see this team rising up if Mark
hill Folds stays healthy. We've seen him add more directionality to his own downhill
game, and he does have sort of the little middie. I'd like to
see him get to the line more, maybe just even get to the rim
with better frequency. The defensive potential of this duo, though, I don't
want to say it's off the charts, but it's pretty high because I think
Suggs is gonna end up being like a really tough defender as well. Then
you have Faults, who's just sort of disruptive and can cover bigger players too.
I didn't know where to put them though, because there is the Faults
health question. He missed a bunch of time last these he looked good upon
return, and both of these players they have limitations and Faults specifically like his
offensive limitations do worry me. And then we're dealing with the uncertainty of Okay,
well, what does Jail and Suggs look like from year one to year
two. I'd argue that could definitely benefit them because I would expect him to
just be a lot better by virtue of how much he struggled as a rookie.
It almost feels like this is a team with a backcourt comprised of experienced
rookies because Marquelle Folts has had no continuity whatsoever in his career thanks to the
injuries, thanks changing teams and changing systems, and then Jalen Suggs, as
you mentioned, even if he's going to become that five time MVP now that
we referenced off the top, like, he is essentially still going through the
hurdles that first year point guards have to undergo. Where turnovers are problematic,
shot selection is problematic. The game hasn't quite slowed down, and I think
that's the biggest thing for this duo is on the offensive end, Like the
game still hasn't slowed down for either of them. Folds has shown flashes when
he's been able to stay healthy, and I think they can get there.
They're probably going to be aided by an improving magic roster around them, with
Banko with with Friends Wagner, who has looked phenomenal in EuroBasket to this point.
They're only Brons. I still maintain that you should rebrand this podcast as
only Dan's and only have guests named Dan. That's been off podcast that's neither
here nor there. But yeah, I mean this is it's like an experienced,
inexperienced backcourt with loads of potential and loads of uncertainty. I do think
that there's a good amount of separation between Orlando and the two bottom teams in
these rankings, but it's hard to be confident given what we've seen to this
point in a surge coming, especially because if the magic are better than expected,
if they're drastically exceeding an over under total, it's likely going to be
because the front court plays above expectations, not necessarily because the backcourt does.
Their best passer is probably in the front court. Looking at Pablo bank Caro,
I think he's their best passer already, I will say, with him,
and then you also have like Mobamba, of course, but there's some
stretch to Wendell Carter Junior's game. You have Wagner, you have Gary Harrison
Ross, there's a lot of lineups now that it could have a ton of
spasing, which felt like Orlando's offense could get a little clumpy over the past
two years, and that could help elevate the play of this backcourt. Did
you want to bring us to our next back court, which I think was
this They were also tough to place. They were tough to place, and
yet we were both at number twenty seven for them. And that's the Houston
Rockets with Kevin Porter Junior and Jalen Green. Kevin Porter Junior was one of
my biggest breakout candidates last season and it just didn't come to fruition. There's
just there's still not enough intelligent decision making there where it feels like he makes
his mind up before actually moving with the basketball. He telegraphs passes, he
telegraphs driving lanes, and it's made it tough for him to capitalize on the
athletic potential. On the flip side, Jalen Green talk about a strong second
half that really should Curry a lot of favor moving forward because it looked like
much like Anthony Edwards's second and half of his rookie year, where like it
started to make sense for him and you could tell that his scoring prowess was
starting to be realized. In the moment, I think you often see the
game feeling like it's slowing down for guys like Jalen Green who have that natural
scoring talent, and then all of a sudden they can make it work.
And he made it work in the second half of the year, and I
think that he can continue doing that. I just don't know how consistent it's
going to be. The upside of this backward is probably higher than the upside
for the next few in our rankings, but the downside is going to be
popping up more frequently than Houston would like to admit. Yeah, I just
don't see it from Kevin Porter Junior anymore. I think he's better suited as
sort of a microwave sixth man. I thought, you know that after his
first half season in Houston. I thought there was more to plumb from his
playmaking. But I think he's just overstretched if he wanted to be the actual
point guard now. Jalen Green is good enough where the dynamic still works,
But long term for this team, I would like the idea of maybe testing
out thy Ty Washington almost right off the bat. I would be fine with
Josh Christopher if you really want to go with Jail and Green being like the
like, that's your guy who's going to lead you in scoring en Assis and
that's how you view it. And so I'm not saying they need to deviate
away from this, but I think there's gonna be more upside and experimenting with
a different player next to Jaalen Green at this point, which is why I
couldn't bring myself to put them any higher. And look, I could see
San Antonio or Orlando specifically leap Froggy Man. I just don't think there's any
upside and the like. Wherever the Lakers end up like that, I feel
like they have a very I know we talked about up like you said that
Westbrook's the best player in this tier perhaps and we're close to it, or
it could has the highest upside, and yeah, I just see limited value
there. But yeah, Houston is Houston's tough, but having Jalen Green is
like a mega good star for them. And if I would consider nudging them
up immediately if you told me that thy Ty Washington or even Josh Christopher is
going to be the guy that logs more time next to Jalen Green and the
more important lineups. It is funny having next to twenty six, which we
have as the Los Angeles Clippers with Reggie Jackson and Norman Powell, because I
think people are gonna might if they don't listen to this all the way,
like Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. We're banking on the clip like this is
the like they're gonna be wings. They'll have Leonard or George's like qualifies the
four with the way they're gonna play, unless you just think that it's gonna
be Kauai, Paul George and Reggie Jackson and then like Marcus Morris or Nick
Latum slash of eats the zoo Bots. I didn't know how to treat this
one, so I interrupted there. But that was tough. It's like,
I wasn't gonna put Paul George as the two here, because even if the
Clippers start games like that, I think invariably their most used backcourt combination is
not gonna be with Paul George's the de facto two. I was fully on
board with that, but I am glad you explained. But the point here
is there's a big disparity in upside versus high floor. I think the Clippers
backcourt as listed is the high floor backcourt where you know what you're going to
get from Reggie Jackson, and you know what you're going to get from Norman
Powell. And in both cases it's good, it's not great. There's not
that much more to plumb. You can use Norman Powell as like that secondary
pick and roll ball handler who can put some pressure on the basket. You
don't want to do it that frequently. He can make passes, he can
serve as a facilitator, he can operate off the ball, but everything has
to be in moderation. And the same is true for Reggie Jackson, even
if Reggie Jackson doesn't want it to be true. So you know what this
is. This is a pretty easy one to place, set it, and
forget it, and then see what they do with their various lineup combinations.
Because the upside for the Clippers is clearly not coming here. It's coming from
the health of the players we're listing as wings. Right, I would say,
like if we were talking about their real upside is I could see putting
them ahead of maybe the next two teams to start the forthcoming tier. And
that's just where I'm at. And look, they're dynamic offensively. You look
at Norman Powell's downhill pressure his shoot if he's healthy. Reggie Jackson, he's
become like a really good set jump shooter and he gives you some He's like
not a top tier creator, not gonna put a ton of pressure on the
basket, but he can really be confident with the ball in his hands.
Their value, though, is the fact that they're both not predominantly on ball
players. Any like Reggie Jackson can be a steward. But if they're in
a Clippers lineup, like you want to run things through Paul George or you
want to run things through Kwhi Leonard, I also do wonder is there a
chance John Wall enters this fold. I know everyone expects him to come off
the bench, and it makes the most sense to sort of give him ownership
over the lineups that will include at most one of choir Paul George. But
could you see a scenario in which like it's it's Norman Powell and John Wall
for this or I guess less likely, even less likely be Reggie Jackson and
John Wall. The Clippers are just so versatile that we're past positions. Like
even separating them into a front court and backcourt feels stupid at this point.
I mean, if you know what to expect from John Wall, congrats on
beating John Wall. Maybe he hasn't played basketball and so long. At this
point he's thirty two, I believe by the time this comes out, how
do we know what to expect from him in any way? Like, yeah,
he could absolutely play good basketball in the starting lineup, probably alongside Powell.
Even then, I don't know how much higher this is going to rise
because it's it's impossible to figure out what exactly John Wall is going to offer
in twenty twenty two, twenty three. That wraps up Tier six. And
so just to recap, this is our bottom tier. The Spurs, the
Lakers, the Magic, the Rockets, and the Clippers were all in our
bottom tier. I would probably listen if people wanted to nudge the Clippers up
into Tier five. But we get to tier five, which is ranking number
twenty five, and it is the Indiana Pacers, and we have Thyreas Halibert
of course, and Benedict Mathrin for me personally, just a vote of confidence,
and Tyrese Haliburton, who was taps lock fucking awesome once he was traded
Indiana, and guess what he was capsock fucking awesome in Sacramento. I was
really impressed with a lot of this stuff that he did in Isolation and Indy.
He is still I don't think he's ever going to be hardwired to be
as selfish as he needs to be. But he is an a plus passer,
A plus plus passer to me, and he is going to make every
single lineup work because he can basically accommodate any situation. If you wanted to
play him next to someone who is more ball dominant, hey guess what that's
gonna work. I remained intrigued with Bennednick Mathren. I think because the Pacers
have committed to this rebuild, he might be a dark horse Rookie of the
Year candidate. There was a lot more on ball juice to him watching what
I did of Summer League than I thought there was going to be. I
think he and Haliburton can play off each other really well, and I'm excited
for this backcourt. Could I see them needing to be pulled back a bit
just because Bennnick Mathern's a rookie, and you know, historically I do feel
like rookie guards have harder learning curves. That's not a scientific study done by
me. That's just me saying that and having red stuff that suggests that.
But I could see them needing to be pulled back. But I'm bullish on
Tyrese Haliburton as someone who's going to be an all NBA staple, if not
like making a team every single year, like he's going to be in that
discussion continually, and it could happen as soon as next season. For me,
maybe not because the Pacers could be bad, but I think that when
we're talking about two players, one player can very much elevate the standing of
a backcourt, and I think we'll see that with Luka Datchets in Dallas whenever
we get to them. But like Mathron might be good right off the bat,
and so I love just the dynamic between these two without having even seen
them together yet, I was really surprised that I ended up having in this
low because it much like you two players I really really like watching and think
the world of Haliburton is just good in every single situation and has already shown
more on ball juice than we expected in his first couple of years in the
NBA. There's still so much room to grow even if he's not going to
be that true alpha scorer, and that could be Mathron, who was one
of my favorite prospects in this entire draft. The mentality that he has as
a scorer as a defender, like he just it feels like he gets it.
That said, without the talent to really bolster them in Indiana, they're
going to face a lot of defensive pressure. And I think that's why I
ended up having them lower is just they're probably going to put up stronger raw
numbers than you would expect from a team sitting this far down in the backcourt
rankings. Whether that translates to winning, probably not at this stage of their
careers because they're going to be trying to figure out how to operate alongside one
another, how to best probe different defensive looks that are thrown at them throughout
a long, grueling schedule. So I just I don't see it yet from
a productivity standpoint, once you factor in winning and efficiency, even if they're
going to be fun to watch and they are going to be flashes of excellence
pretty frequently, brings us to number twenty four. This is just like was
impossible, and this because we're recording this in advance, it doesn't become dated
in any way. But it's the Utah Jazz at twenty four and Colin Sexton
backcourt staple. Now like he's gonna start locking in. Is he playing with
Mike Conley or Malik Beasley? None of them? We don't. We don't
really know at this point. I would hazard though the fact that it,
like I would Peggan, is a better than fifty percent chance it's gonna be
one of those two players to start the seat, I would think it's Beasley.
I think Conley will either come off the bench, not play, or
more likely than not, be moved. That's not like, yeah, the
Jazz might force a pullback, but like, that's not actually a bad back
court. There's not a ton unless he's If Conley's not there, you really
lack creation. I think Sexton's passing downhill is good enough, and I think
he can make passes out of the pick and roll. Are you gonna trust
him to create something out of nothing for others? Is he gonna pass guys
open though, He's going to be more of a reactive passer. But he
is shot very Yeah, you want to see his three point volume go up
a little bit more. I mean, if he's gonna take pull up jumpers,
you want to see them hit him in a higher clip. But he's
efficient on drives, Defenses react and if you can get him to take more
threes, he's been a very efficient for his career off the catch three point
shooter. And then you play with Malik Beasley, who has like some off
the dribble juice and he has a little bit of a down season for part
of last year, but he can work. Is going to space the floor.
Your defense is gonna be iffy. Even if Mike Comley's healthy and playing.
Yeah, he's probably the best defender of these three, which is weird
to say. Beasley as the physical tools, Sexton has not been great.
I still think he has another gear to get to on the ball because there's
just like when you look at some of his stances and the pressure he could
put on I'm not I'm not ruling it out, but this was it was
impossible to place. But I also think if you want them to just be
thrown down the thirty the worst version of the Jazz. It's so guard heavy
right now that just by virtue of halling Colin Sexton there's going to be quality
in the back court, and I think you can, you know, reasonably
predict that. Okay, if Conley's not there, then Jordan Clarkson or Malik
Beasley might be. So we're not going to get to a point you know,
it's Jared Butler and Nikkil Alexander Walker being there their primary ones and twos.
We should though, that'd be great. I want to see a lot
of Jared Butler. If anyone cares that that, I don't think they do.
But I mean the discrepancy in our personal rankings here because I had the
Jazz at twenty first and you had him at twenty six, is just solely
who we picked in that second backward spot because we're recording this while Mike Conley
is still on the roster, and I think that he makes the most sense
alongside Collin Sexton at this point. So I had them at twenty one because
Conley still has good basketball left in the tank, even if he is not
the peak version of himself any longer, as was made painfully clear throughout this
last campaign. If it's Molik Beasley, I probably dropped to right where you
have them at twenty six. His shooting from the outside. His ability to
catch and shoot in particular, gives them a good floor. Just the ceiling
isn't quite there with him in the lineup, so it's in flux. It
could look nothing like this, as you said, But Sexton alone elevates them
into this tier. What if they just decide very quickly, if they decide
we're gonna bring Sexton off the bench and it's gonna be and Beasley, does
that move it up or down for you? Probably a little down. I
mean, the exciting part of this is the the on ball, rim attacking
pressure that Colin Sexton can put on a defense. And if you're taking that
away to have him feature as a sixth man, your team probably isn't getting
significantly worse. But if we're looking at starting backcourt rankings, they're gonna drop
a little bit. Number twenty three is the Milwaukee Bucks we had Pat Connaton
Pennsyllena is the starting two. I think that makes the most sense. I
would rather like. I'd definitely rather see that over Grace and Allen. It's
a very it's a quality backcourt. And Drew Holiday shot a trillion percent.
That's that's factually a trillion percent on step back three's last year, and he
can be you know, he's got like that that physicality that strengthened him on
offense too, and if you sometimes wish he would as a score operate a
little bit more quickly. I think Connaton has turned into just like the quintessential
three and D swing man, wing, whoever you want to classify him,
and he can move fairly well off the ball. If he's going to continue
to shoot the ball like he did last season two, I would listen to
a case for this being up. It was just tough. It's it's always
tough to place the backcourts where it's like there's one all star caliber player and
then very much someone who's more of a role player, and the his best
case outcome is not necessarily a mystery or it's there. There's limited value there.
So twenty three feels so low. If it was gonna be you know,
if they decided to start West Matthews, I don't think this changes.
If they start Grayson Allen, I don't know if it changes much. So
if you think it's gonna be one of those guys, it's definitely not.
If it was Drew Holliday and Chris Milton, which I do not like.
That's never maybe in some lineups when you're playing super big perhaps, but that's
that wasn't even up for consideration. So it seems low because the Bucks are
so good as is Drew and Conaton's fine. But I also think when you
start to look at the names to come, you begin to understand it.
I couldn't move the Bucks any higher as much as I wanted to because Drew
Holliday. I'm just I'm worried that there is a little bit of a decline
coming because we typically see point guards or shoot guards as well, they don't
always age gracefully as they enter their thirties. He's thirty two now. We
also saw last year he created for himself unlike he had before. So last
season, nineteen point seven percent of his made twos were assisted, forty three
point two percent of his made threes were assisted. Those are significantly below both
career averages and recent year averages, where he was at twenty six point seven
and fifty seven point one, respectively for his career. And he coupled that
with better efficiency on those shots than we'd seen in his recent history. And
I don't know how sustainable that's going to be in an offense that is going
to continue to feature Janisanta Dakumbo and Chris Middleton and doesn't have him creating as
a primary option as frequently. I hope it can be continued because Drew Holiday
is amazing and so fun to watch and perpetually underrated. And maybe we're underrating
ourselves here now, but I just I don't know that. I totally buy
the version that we saw last season. Wow, so you look, you're
the one who might be understand I totally buy it. I'm with it,
like and look, so this is clearly the best defensive backcourt so far,
right, I'm trying to think of yeah, and it's it's it's pretty easy
looking at number twenty two, and again we are still in Tier five.
It is. This one was just like, I feel like it reads weird.
But Darren Fox and Kevin Herder and Sacramento. I love the offensive potential
of this group. Kevin Hurder is just he can be a very fiery shooter.
There's some stuff he can do off the dribble, but he's just very
elusive if you get a moving without the ball, and he can take a
lot of those quick fire threes, the fact that you have to deal with
the thrust from Dearn Fox on the ball with Kevin Hurder sort of floating around.
This could be a deadly just like one two combination in transition where Fox
is getting out and sprays the ball to Kevin Hurder who's trailing. They're also
going to work well in the half court. I like that the Kings have
surrounded some bonus and Fox with a bunch of shooting. I question what the
defense is gonna look like, including for this backcourt. Herder has been I
guess he had. He's six seven, and you can sometimes feel him on
defense. Box is underachieved by and large. I think when you looked at
some of his second halves, he's been better defensively than he's been you know,
through other you know, the first parts of the season. We need
to see him put it together for an entire year. I felt weird having
them in front of Milwaukee, and like some other teams, I think they
were just in front of Milwaukee my own rankings, yes they were, but
I ultimately think this is where they belong. And again, that's so weird
because we're talking about two like pretty young players and Daron Fox still has that
all NBA ceiling, Like look at how he closed last year. He was
just an absolute monster. So again this feels weird looking at it, but
without seeing the other names that could also make it difficult. I remember putting
them here and it was the same feeling with Drew and Pat Connaughton. I'm
like, putting them in the bottom ten just feels almost egregious. Yeah,
to be a a sustainability question where if you do have this this new look
front court in Sacramento, that's going to demand a lot of touches that's taking
away from these guys, and then are they going to be able to stay
as engaged when Darren Fox isn't always operating with the ball and isn't always able
to move and warp speed. He could, he certainly did at the end
of last season, but again it's a consistency thing. And the same is
true for Hurter where in Atlanta he could fill just about any role that you
would ask of a backcourt member or a true wing in moderation, and then
he would disappear. So you'd have those games where he's looking like a strong
secondary creator creator, sometimes even a primary creator. He's looking like a guy
who can hit pull up jumpers, looks like he can knock down the catch
and shoot jumpers, and then he just disappears and you forget he exists.
So that's the issue to me, is as talented as they can be without
the opportunities to be players on a regular basis, what happens when they aren't
the primary options? Yeah, I think that's a perfect way to frame it.
With Kevin Herder specifically, this next team at number twenty seven, I
single handedly put them here, and I don't want to say, oh,
excuse me. At number twenty one, I don't want to say that I
regret it. But it's the Detroit Pistons. Jay Nivy, Kade Cunningham.
Jay Nivey is just a question mark in the NBA. We haven't seen him
yet, and so was this giving him too much credit? Maybe this was
all a bal kade for me. You watch him play last year. Fuck
the efficiency numbers, don't I don't care. This is ball on a string.
Shit Like he just has the entire game the way he can see it
and process it in decisions. He could make you give him more spacing or
more talent. I think Detroit's giving him slightly more talent than last year.
I feel like he single handedly got Marvin Bagley paid in free agency, and
Marvin Bagley was really good with the Pistons last year. He showed some really
nice touch around the basket and some nice little paget Marvin Bagley. By the
way, right, Adam did say one of one of the podcasts, Marvin
Bagley still has an all star ceiling, so he's he's with you Pistons fans,
but this is all about Kade for me, and not that anything you
get from Ivy as a bonus. I do think it's gonna be big.
I think Kay Cunningham can work off the ball. I think we're gonna see
a three point clip skyrocket and that's gonna maybe make him like an even better
defender if he doesn't like and he just has the size to come up stuff
the one, the two, the three, the four, He's fantastic.
I think the big thing here. I like the element that Jay Nivy adds
going downhill if you want to get moving in transition, the way that Kade's
able to play off of him. We could see some I'd like to see
Kay Cunningham be a screen center here, U screed screen center. Excuse me
for not a screed center. A screen center for Jay n Ivy here.
I think what it's gonna come down to is one just how good Jay Nivy
is is a rookie, but also can he work off of Kate Cunningham.
I didn't watch a ton of Ivy in college, but when you do go
back and you look at like his strengths as weaknesses some of the tape,
I want to know if he's going to be able to play off the ball
like a higher amount just because you want the ball on Kade's hands. Just
because he can play off the ball doesn't mean that you want to take it
away from him. And therein lies my concern and why I had this team
seven spots lower than you and my rankings. I share your sentiments about Kaid
Cunningham. I think it's going to be a rough rookie year for Jade and
Ivy. And that's not to say that he's not going to develop into a
star player. I actually do think that he's a really good long term prospect.
But Detroit was drafting for talent, not fit here, which is the
right thing to do in the Pistons situation where you are very much in talent
accumulation mode, not trying to plug in the pieces that are going to immediately
vault you up the Eastern Conference standings. Ivy was an on ball stud at
Perdue. He does not have that much experience playing off the ball, which
he's going to have to do if you're maximizing Kaid Cunningham's talents. Beyond that,
he's very much the type of prospect who's going to go through those those
issues that befall most first year of guards, where a lot of shot selection
is poor, There are going to be a lot of clients off the rim,
and there are going to be a lot of turnovers because you think that
the game is not moving as fast as it actually is when you're trying to
serve as a facilitator, trying to probe into lanes in a crowded space.
This, to me, my ranking is because they're going to give big minutes
to Ivy and it's not always going to go well. And I cannot be
more clear that I don't think that means he's not a good prospect or isn't
going to be good down the road, But this particular setup is not ideal
for him to thrive right off the bat. I'd be with you there,
and this feels like one of us will just be very wrong, is what
It's clear. So either you're going to be I'm almost thinking that I'm too
in love with Kade and I inflated their ranking, but I'm not gonna think
that's possible though fair enough, so I think that we should do these next
three teams together to round out to year five. What do you think?
I'm for it? All right? So number twenty the Charlotte hornets LaMelo Voluntary
Rosier, nineteen the Knicks with Jalen Brunson and RJ. Barrett. Please note
Donovan Mitchell is not part of that backcourt. And eighteen is okay say with
Josh Giddy and shake Gil just Alexander my rationale very quickly. Tyr Rosier and
LaMelo Ball worked perfectly together. There's just not a lot of on ball scoring
there, and that's I think like you need you want at least one of
your backcourt members to be an aggressive or higher level on ball scorer. I
think LaMelo Ball can get there. I question whether he's he's wired or do
it? Are you going to see him still improve as a finisher if he
gets stronger. I believe in the shot. I do think he can create
a little bit more of his jumpers off the dribble and hit them at a
higher clip. His passing is just absurd, and the way that he gets
his teammates running in transition, and the way that defenses are sort of trying
to plan around his decision making because there's like a randomization to the way that
he passes, and it's just really incredible. It's flashy and their substance to
it. For the Knicks, I think they have the potential to skyrocket up
here. Maybe I'm viewing this too much in the context of like well as
Julius Randall and Mitchell Robinson both gonna be playing a ton of minutes with them,
and then who's going to be the other players? R J. Barrett
gonna be playing a lot of three still for this team. I had questions
about what they're back, whatvers even gonna be. I think it's really just
a lot hinges on what does John Brunson look like in a Knicks system that's
not going to afford him as much spacing or complimentary shooting as Dallas did.
And then is what do the Knicks allow RJ. Barrett to do? We
saw them give him the keys for about half the year last season he looked
good. Can he improve as a finisher? Can he improve sort of that
like off the dribble mid range game? Is his passing gonna get even better?
I'm just fully confident that he'll We made a good set jump shooter.
I know there were some ebbs and flows to his season there last year,
and then Josh Kitty and Shay for Oka se Jay gil chows enters that guy
looking at his self creation, he had a down year from an outside shooting
perspective, but when you look at the level of difficulty on his shots,
his life should get easier even without Chet Holmgren this year. And I'm kind
of hoping that maybe he could play better, right And I'm kind of hoping
he can defend at the level he did during his rookie season with the Clippers.
We've still been sort of waiting for that since he arrived in Okay.
See, I'm not the biggest believer in Josh Giddy though. That being said,
the idea of Josh Giddy working with Chip England behind the scenes maybe makes
me think that I need to reevaluate that. And he didn't look like he
or rather he looked like someone who didn't belong in Summer League this year,
which is encouraging. That backcourt has a lot of nice size which will help
them for rebounding even if they're not. And then like Giddy's a solid defender,
I think she has been decidedly below average in Okaycy. There's a lot
of different dimensions though that I think those two could take. I do worry
about their shooting overall. Is Giddy gonna have the ball enough or warrant enough
attention when he does from the defense because they know he's not looking to score.
Is he gonna go to his floaters? Is he gonna look to attack
to him that Shay gets these higher quality looks as a set jump shooter,
or is too much of the offensive creation Burton going to fall on him?
And does Okay see without ched Homegrenn have enough you know, orbiting shooters to
maximize and optimize those guys. And so I think you could probably fuck and
fiddle with the order here. If I had to bet which three had the
highest upside leading into next season. I actually think it's the Knicks because Jalen
Brunson is really good. But these three for me were absurdly tough. And
that's even looking at them now. I didn't actually have them. You had
them one right after the other in your rankings. I did not, but
I had the thunder of the Knicks right together. They're basically inseparable for me.
So I'm glad that you unveiled these as a trio because you can shuffle
them up in any order and you can pretty easily justify it. I think
an interesting way of looking at it is just you know, we have six
players here, one to six, best to worst. I think it's probably
Shay at number one, LaMelo at number two, RJ. Barrett and Jalen
Brunson to me are pretty even at three and four, and then it's probably
Rose Yeer at five and Giddy at six. But I think Shay has by
far the highest, Like I can carry a unit ceiling because LaMelo, as
good as he is at so many things, he requires other pieces. I'm
with you. I didn't want to ask who do you think is the best
defender of these six. I know a lot of people don't think guard defense
matters but it matters at least a little bit. Probably is it already it's
LaMelo or Barrett, right, I think it's probably Barrett or LaMelo. Then
I would go with Barrett, and then Rosie is probably ahead of Brunton,
Shay and Giddy at this point. But yeah, I just thought that was
that was fascinating. Who do you which backhard is the highest upside next season
to you? Of these three? To me, it's LaMelo and Rosier actually,
because I think that LaMelo has scoring upside, he just doesn't play that
way and what if he does? To me, like more than any of
these other guys, I think he's the one who can become the all around
superstar. I don't I don't know that I ever see s Ga becoming an
all defensive player while also scoring twenty five a game. I can see Lamello
doing that and also you know, having nine or ten assists a game.
Yeah, he's the better, He's the better passer. There that those two
are interesting, Like I've never needed to compare them, and I don't know
why you would until this discussion, But that's sort of a fascinating debate.
So that wraps up Tier five for us and so the members of Tier five
were and this is in you know, ascending order, the Pacers, the
Jazz, the Bucks, the Kings, the Pistons, the Hornets, the
Knicks, and the thunder. That moves us too tier that was tier four.
Excuse me, this moves us to tier that was tier five. Wow,
I'm tripling all my words. We were in Tier four. And the
first member of Tier four checking at number seventeen in our back court rankings is
the Miami Heat with Kyle Lowry and Victor Oladipo. My first instinct is,
this feels too high. It does feel too high. Immediately, I'm trying
like, Kyle Lowry can still be good. Was banged up last year.
I don't want to read too much into how he sort of finished the season
in some of the playoff moments that he had. Victor Oladipo coming back and
being healthy and not needing to be even the Heats like second best or even
third best player is interesting to me. I do think this could sneakily be
the best defensive backcourt that we've seen to date in these rankings, and that's
including above the oh my god, I'm stumbling here, the who's the best
defensive backcourt that Drew Holiday Pat Connatton. So far, I could see this
these two getting at least that honor, but they were I'm wondering if I
was. We had them in similar spots, so were we too aggressive with
them? Kind of feel like we were, Like a big part of me
wants to drop them into Tier five here. My whole thing is that this
is the one of the few backcourts we've seen to date where both of the
players can be above average defensively and then also generate their own shot on offense.
And that is like a pretty big deal. Imagine how good this lineup
would have been in like twenty seventeen. But like, that's the issue,
right, is that how much more are you going to get from these guys?
Lowry showed those first age related cracks last season. Oladipo is a ticking
time bomb with the constant injury issues that he's had to deal with. I
don't know that I'm ever gonna feel comfortable betting on him playing upwards of seventy
games, and Lowry's probably not gonna either, so as talented as they are,
I kind of as we're going through this exercise and talking more about some
of these younger players and how they fit together, like I might revamp and
have them like below Charlotte. Yeah, I think I'm thinking we put them
too high. But there's also just the level of like I said, the
dynamism that I've said for both ends on them. And look, I'm just
buying into like Kyle Lowry being better and healthier this year, and that prospect
is enough for me. And he's also just he elevates the play of his
teammates when you look at the way he defends, you look at the stuff
he does on away from the ball, on offense. As we get to
number sixteen here, and I'm gonna give you the talking stick for this one,
we have we have the Brooklyn Nets with Kyrie Irving and Steph Curry.
The one thing I'll note is, because Kyrie's there and you look at the
Nets wing rotation, Ben Simmons is not a wing, but he's not going
to be the starting point guard here. I did wonder for a second there's
a line that they can run out where maybe Kyrie and Ben Simmons are the
backcourt, and I think that would change the complexion of these rankings a ton.
But the Nets are at number sixteen, that is outside the top fifteen,
and we did share similar sentiments on this, So I want to hand
the talking stick to you so you can justify why they're in Tier four.
Availability is part of it, right, We're not going to see the same
reasons for Kyrie Irving being kept off the floor that we did this last season.
But even beyond that, now, does he want to play eighty two
games in a season? Is he capable of staying healthy enough to play anything
close to eighty two games in a season? Even if you've passed the availability
concerns, which Seth Curry has had some of as well, it's kind of
a one dimensional backcourt. Or I think you can make a case that Seth
Curry throughout his career has been a little bit underrated on the defensive end.
He has good hands, he has some good instincts on the perimeter, but
he can get bullied around. He loses track of his man off ball.
It's not always pretty. And I don't have anything to say about Kyrie Irving's
defense because for me to have something to say about it, it would have
to exist. So the offensive for a tiny little bit, the offensive ceiling
here obviously through the roof, this could look like a top five backcourt on
any given night, because Kyrie Irving can go for sixty points on any given
night. It's what happens when that doesn't happen that is the issue. So
I think this is a significant step up from Kyle Auron Victor Oladipo, which
I realize is ironic considering I'm staring at me ranking Kyrie Irving and Seth Curry
one spot below them. But I don't know how much I believe in this
back court despite the obvious name power. And I think even if you included
Ben, I don't think that's gonna end up being the back court. But
if you said it was Ben Simmons and Kyrie, there's just so much combustibility
here with health. Ben Simmons dealing with the back stuff, Seth Curry just
had ankle surgery, Kyrie Irring has always just dealt with something when it comes
to injuries. Joe Harris working his way back from ankle surgery as well,
if you want to throw him in here. So the ceiling is through the
roof, as Michael Jordan would say, or the ceiling is the roof,
as Michael Jordan would say, but there's just not enough certainty here. And
I look, there's defensive concerns for sure. We know so much of an
NBA offense now is finding weak points on the team's defense and just poking it
and prodding it and continuously going after it. I feel like you can do
that a lot against Brooklyn's back court. Right then you want to throw Patty
Mills in this equation or whatever, And so Ben Simmons will help neuter some
of that. But again, are we viewing him as the back court?
How often is he even going to play if we consider him as that?
So, yeah, I didn't know what to do with this team. I
feel bad putting them this low. I also don't feel bad at the same
time because of how much uncertainty needs to be caked in with just like,
is this even? Is Kyrie of an even in Brooklyn to finish the season?
I know everything's not hunky Dorian Brooklyn, but we just had the Nets
wouldn't give him a max contract extension. He was looking actively for another destination
and couldn't find one. It had to opt in because he wouldn't have gotten
max money in free agency probably like and then Kevin Durant requested a trade and
then rescinded it. This is just like the nets are so unbelievably combustible.
I don't actually feel bad about putting them here. So you look at the
talent and it's like, oh okay, and you even look at the offensive
fit it should be fine. There's just too many question marks here. Plus
I didn't want to feel like there's a step up as soon as we get
to this next team. And well, I was also going to say,
like, we had these next four teams looped so closely together, so do
you want me to unveil them at the same time? And this is how
we're going to conclude the first part of this. So at number fifteen,
we have the Denver Nuggets with Jamal Murray and Contavia's Caldlopope. At number fourteen,
we have the New Orleans Pelicans with CGM call Him and Herb Jones.
At number thirteen, we have the Chicago Bulls with Lonzo Ball and Zach Lavine.
And at number twelve we have the Washington Wizards with Monte Morris and Bradley
Beale. We both had these all of these teams ranked between twelve and sixteen.
So this is just very apropos that they landed here. For me specifically,
I don't like all of these were tough. Bradley Beale's coming off a
down year. I think he's probably the best player of this eight at his
peak, though Jamal Murray's coming back from an ACL injury. Lonzo Ball isn't
even gonna be ready to start the season at this point. I think Zach
Lavine is just so good that you have to bring him up. And so
I'll I'm like jumping around here, and so I'll start with the Nuggets.
I could envision this being higher because Jamal Murray and KCP worked really well together.
KCP is gonna give you some point of attack defense in addition to his
shooting on offense. I think he can move fairly well and transition away from
the ball too. And then Jamal Murray when he got injured, was playing
like some really gritty defense himself. And we know about out is off the
dribble creation he improved as a pass or the way he works off of Nicole
Yokich is just absolutely fantastic. There's a much higher ceiling here than number fifteen.
It's just Jamal Muray is coming back from an ACL injury, and so
there is sort of that question mark there, and then you're looking at like
SJ. McCollum and New Orleans being so good and Herb Jones being a dominant
defender. I think Zach Lavine is just an absolutely fantastic player if Lonzo Ball
is healthy, He's just sort of the ideal offensive connective tissue as an away
from the ball shooter or somebody who can keep the ball moving or get you
jump started in transition. So you're just like, my thoughts are incoherent here
because these four were so inextricably tied together. And I think what's what's really
funny is that these four I maintain this order. But if you were asking
me like ceiling expectations, I might just reverse it because I think that Jamal
Murray has that explosive potential, has shown that defensive grittiness and is a really
strong fit with KCP if KCP is in full working order as at three and
D guy who can take all sorts of pressure off him Hurt Jones, there's
he's a defensive menace, a defensive system unto himself already with room to GROW's
offensive game. CJ McCollum just shot flames as soon as he arrived in New
Orleans Lonzo Ball. Aside from the injury, he's currently dealing with just a
perpetually underrated defensive force who is still a somewhat efficient offensive player, and if
his three point shot is falling, is actually a pretty good player. And
then the least exciting of them is probably the Wizards as my I mean,
you know how much I love Monte Morris, but like he is what he
is. He's an efficient point guard who doesn't make mistakes, which also limits
his ceiling on any given night. And we know what Bradley Beale is.
He's not getting any younger. So as much as I think that Bradley Beale
is the best player of this group of four, that this order that we
have makes a lot of sense. If you're asking me, like upside rankings,
just totally reverse it. Yeah, I think that's a good point.
I might say the McCollum HERB Jones, one might I guess HERB Jones can
improve so much, it's just there's not gonna be a ton of creation are
even with CJ having improved there the past couple of years. I do think
the Bulls maybe they need to be lower entering the year, just knowing about
Lonzo Ball's injury. I made my rankings before it. You made it after
the news that he was gonna not be ready with that knee injury. But
Zach Colvine is just so good, Like he has to be one of the
if you're asking someone just create a jump shot, three point shot off the
dribble in the NBA, there's like maybe four or five players you'd want instead
of him, honestly, Like he's just become that much of a force.
And so but the Lonzo Ball injury, it's like, so Zakovine is sort
of carrying the Bulls at this point because the uncertainty with Lonzo's injury. I
could listen to an argument for why they would need to drop again. It's
like I said, there's questions elsewhere. It's with the Pelicans. I like
the idea of them going with this backcourt. You have Ingram and Zion williamsone
he's healthy, and you just get your creation from those two in McCollum,
But when you look at this backcourt specifically, there's not actually a ton of
primary self creation here. You'd probably rather have Ingram and maybe even Zion run
the offense than McCollum, just because of the attention Zion draws when he as.
I'm also just trusting you with McCollum and Herb Jones because I believe where
I was filling out my ballot it specifically said just trust me. I talked
to Pelicans people I wanted to confirm, and look, they did it.
They announced it this way too last year. But the Pelicans rosters like kind
of wonky. But I love the idea of like going with this and then
having Ingram and Zion and then Joas out and Jutis and that's you're starting five.
If we're wrong, then I actually think that they can only go down
if it's McCollum and DeVante Graham. Unless it's McCollum and brandon Ingram, you're
not gonna You're not gonna move up, would be my argument there. I'm
ready for the brandon Ingram, Zion Williamson backcourt. Look some of those lineups,
if they really wanted to, they could just roll with it and try
it. Have have Herb Jones, Trey Murphy and then Larry Nance. Just
that's your front line, Like they'll defend the front line. That's gonna do
it for part one. Hope you enjoyed this. Please remember to subscribe to
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