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Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro
Rojas. Open Minds Radio is a UFO

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news authority presenting evidence and the latest
news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your

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host, Alejandro Roja. Hello,
it is Alejandro. Welcome to Open Minds

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Radio, your UFO news authority.
This is Alejandro Rojas and we have another

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great show today. You know what, I don't know why I always say

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this too. I just get so
excited about our guests, and this week

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I'm definitely really excited about our guests. I'm sorry, I get so excited

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all the time. I'm just excitable. And that is Steve Volk. And

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here is a gentleman who is a
journalist. We talked about him last week

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at that He wrote a book called
Stringeology, and its subtitle is how I

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tried to explain away the unexplainable and
couldn't you know. He's a journalist.

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His family talked about ghosts. He's
like, yeah, right, you know,

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and he's kind of takes a typical
journalist where it took the typical journalist's

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kind of attitude and he looked into
this stuff and he found all of the

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credible stuff. And guess where he
found the credible UFO information right here on

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Open Minds Radio. Pretty cool dudes. But anyway, he's got a book

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out there. It's made some news. He's gotten on Huffington Post he wrote

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his story on He's got some stories
out there, so that's really exciting.

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His book actually tackles, of course, ghost stories, because that's how it

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all started from his family ghost stories. But he does talk about UFOs,

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psychics, near death experiences, and
other paranormal stuff that he just found.

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You know, wow, there's a
lot of credible stuff. There's some science

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done around some of these subjects.
And why do people run away from these

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subjects? Why do they make fun
of them? You know? Why does

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society have such a problem talking about
the paranormal? A question that has perplexed

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us here at Open Minds for decades. We've been doing this business for nearly

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one hundred and fifty years now,
and every year we wonder that same question.

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Actually, it's been a lot less
than that, but it feels like

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a long long time, a long
journey, probably because past lives. We're

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probably doing this paranormal research in past
lives and many past lives, and I

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think he talks about past lives in
his books. So that's if you're doubting

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me, If you're like, yeah, really, dude, pass law Is,

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go check out his book and he'll
talk about some of the information that

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may show you there is possibly some
legitimacy to that study as well. So

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this is going to be a lot
of fun talking to Steve. He's a

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really great guy, a great researcher, and of course, as my listeners,

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especially our listeners, appreciate, you
know, kind of middle of the

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road taking a look at everything and
being unbiased and weighing the evidence here or

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there. So that's gonna be a
lot of fun. Of course, we've

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had some move On guests on lately, some people who are going to be

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speaking at the move On Symposium this
July twenty ninth to the thirty first in

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Irvine, California. We're looking forward
to being there and checking that out and

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having a booth and signing stuff.
We'll sign your T shirt even if you

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don't ask us to, we'll just
run up there and sign it. But

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Open Minds was here, so you
remember us. And we're also going to

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be in Roswell from July first to
the fourth because that is a famous Roswell

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festival. A lot of stuff going
on, and we cover daily UFO news

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every day to let you know about
the UFO stuff going on all around the

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world. And we have this incredible
news correspondent who's with us every week.

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Ladies and gentlemen, help me give
a warm welcome to Jason McClellan. Jason,

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how are you good? Thanks Bud. That was quite warm. There's

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people clapping all over this place.
Hooray. They're trying to drive and clap

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while they're listening. Well, I
certainly hear it. Hello Alejandro, and

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greetings to all of our listeners.
This is your Open Minds News Brief for

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Monday, June twentieth, twenty eleven. In Alejandro, I share your enthusiasm

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for today's guest, and so I
feel I must start off the news with

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a story about our wonderful guest today. Great So, a Philadelphia reporter recently

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took a journalistic look into the paranormal. In an effort to understand the unexplainable.

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Steve Volk put his journalistic skills to
you since spent three years researching paranormal

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phenomena from a variety of angles and
sources. According to phillybirds dot Com,

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and the result of his multi year
research are in his new book. As

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Alhondra mentioned, the book is fringeology. How I tried to explain away the

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unexplainable and couldn't. In a recent
interview with Philly Post, Walk was asked

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about the percentage of things that are
truly unexplainable. He responds by pointing to

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UFO studies that show how a low
percentage of UFOs remain unidentified, and similar

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information was presented by someone we've had
on the show before, also a journalist,

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Leslie Kane, author of UFOs,
general's Pilots and government officials go on

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the record. After a ten year
investigation, Kine concluded that ninety five percent

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of all UFO sidings can be explained
as ordinary phenomena, leaving five percent of

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the sightings unexplainable. Falk set out
to gain a better understanding of paranormal topics.

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Phillybirds dot Com points out that Balk
is no closer to having all the

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answers about the paranormal, but he's
fine with that. Through his book,

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he hopes to spark discussion and debate, and hope skeptics and believers will learn

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to listen and learn from each other. And I have not read the book.

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I'm actually really excited to read the
book and I can't wait for the

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interview. Yeah, I haven't read
the whole thing. I've read the UFO

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part, the introduction and other pieces
and parts, but I'm I'm really excited

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to sit down and I know I'm
just going to sit down and want sending

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and read it to beginning to end. It's a great read. He's a

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great writer. It's a lot of
fun, and it's I'm really excited about

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the book. It's it's great,
and I get excited when people do this.

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You know, journalists or other people
happen to sort of casually look into

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paranormal paranormal related topics and they get
hooked. Yeah, you know, they

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have a response they didn't expect to
happen, and they just it sort of

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overtakes them. They're oh, wow, I didn't realize it was so much

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here, And I was certainly like
that. That's one of the reasons,

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you know, I kind of relate
to the book because I was a journalism

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student when I really got into this
stuff, and so I didn't really put

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too much into it. But then
you know, when I really started looking

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into it, it was like,
holy moly, there's something here, Martha.

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And with this top with UFO topic
and any other topic, really,

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it's sort of refreshing when someone comes
in with a fresh perspective and a truly

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sort of journalistic approach to it.
They're coming in with a fresh set of

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eyes, no knowledge on the subject, and they're just looking at the facts

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that they can dig up. Yeah, that's always great, and it's great

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to hear from you listeners, because
sometimes we hear from the listeners who are

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like, you know, I wasn't
really I put much into sticking to this

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subject either, but I heard an
interview with guests of yours and I've really

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gotten into it, and that's wonderful. I love to hear that. Absolutely.

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Well, we've talked, oh,
not really a lot, but we've

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talked a little bit about SETI over
the past few weeks. A recent budget

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deficit hampered the SETI Institute's effort to
scan the skies for extraterrestrial frequencies, causing

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operations that their Alan telescope array in
California to be suspended. Fortunately for SETI

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and other researchers, though the search
continues. While their Alan telescope array is

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inactive. SETI continues to operate vers
City of California, Berkeley astronomers recently announced

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a listening project in progress that involves
pointing the Robert C. Berg Green Bank

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Telescope in West Virginia at eighty six
planets that have been selected as world's most

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likely to resemble Earth, with the
hopes of detecting alien signals. The data

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collected from this project will be analyzed
by a network of computers running SETI software,

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called the SETI at Home Project,
But search efforts aren't isolated to the

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United States. Europe's Low Frequency Array, or lo FAR, came online last

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year and hopes to compliment seti's search
for signs signals from that could point to

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signs of extraterrestrial life. Theworld dot
Org describes lo FAR as it consists of

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fields of antenna spread out over five
European countries, and while many radio telescopes

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scans for signals at higher frequencies,
lo FAR is designed to aim at the

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lower noisier bands. So astronomers are
working with lo FAR hope that SETI can

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get back online completely soon because they
feel that their efforts work nicely with seti's

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because then they can cover more ground
looking at larger, larger frequency bands,

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more coverage. But still they acknowledge
that it's sort of a crapshoot. But

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yeah, yeah, I knew people
would be coming to seti's rescue. You

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know, people get excited about SETI
all over the world, more so unfortunately

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than you know, some of the
grassroots kind of UFO investigations, which I

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think are a better investment. In
fact, I think it was Bernard Age,

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but it was a well known astronomer
who said, you know, people

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who are actually investigating UFOs will probably
find the smoking gum before we get a

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signal from somewhere. But it's interesting. It's always good that people are continuing

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to be interested in looking for e
T well. And it's interesting how the

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SETI news, the news about their
budget problems, it still is making headlines.

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Still see it reported as it's something
fresh, something that just happened,

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when it happened more than a month
ago, right, And you know,

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this is just my thought, but
I assume SETI is appealing for headlines because

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it's a scientific organization. There are
other organizations looking for extraterrestrial life. I

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mean, NASA, almost every public
university, but they have search for extraterrestrial

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intelligence in their name and that's what
they are. So I think when they

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see the science organization and a lot
of I think that's why it's still making

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headlines because I think there are a
lot of news organizations out there that had

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no idea there was an organization searching
for extraterrestrial intelligence. Probably yeah, I

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mean it's just such old news to
us, but you're probably right. There

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are probably people all over the place
thinking, wow, there are actually scientists

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doing this right well. As we've
stated before, I certainly wish them luck

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and hope they get back to what
they do, but again I would like

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to see money going to other efforts, but they need money to you know

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what. I kind of get this
image in my head of you know,

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them getting a message and it says
we're right behind you and they turned around

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and there's a UFO like Mars attacks
or something that's big silver who added that

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to Mars attacks? Write the writers
were right behind you? Yeah, Mars

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attacks too. Excellent. Well,
New Zealand has proven itself to be quite

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the UFO hotspot and lately the city
of Rotorua seems to be inundated with UFO

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sidings. Witnesses have reported many UFOs
in the sky above Roetrua. Lately,

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these UFOs have buried in appearance and
have demonstrated various behaviors. The Daily Post

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has been publishing stories about the sightings. Any stories have resulted in additional witnesses

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sending in their own eyewitness accounts,
photos and videos to the Daily Post.

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In response to one of these videos, a reader suggested that the object in

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question could be the Space Shuttle because
at the time the video was taken,

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the Space Show was re entering the
atmosphere. With most of these sightings,

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most of these sightings that are reported, readers like to respond with their opinions

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of what the unknown aerial objects could
be. The suggestions sometimes there are plausible

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explanations, while other times they are
far far stretches by people trying to force

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an identification to make sense of something
unknown. And I watched the video of

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this one particular object in the sky
that one reader suggested could be the Space

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Shuttle, and it's certainly possible because
it's moving pretty quickly through the sky.

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And I've seen the Space shuttle in
the sky, not re entering, but

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when it was in space, and
in space it was moving quite fast.

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But this was supposedly when it was
re entering from a mission, burning through

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the sky. But just a month
ago there was another video from the same

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place and the light just kind of
sat there above the trees and it moved

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a little bit one way and stayed
there and then moved back. And that

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is certainly not a space. But
lots of different UFO sightings in this area,

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like I said, different behaviors,
different shapes, different movements. It's

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interesting too. From one city.
We keep hearing about this right and fortunately

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for them and for everybody, the
local press seems to cover it quite a

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lot. Unfortunately for us, it's
hard to say the name of the town

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and hopefully we're getting it right road
to Ua Roa, Torua Road Torua,

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but yeah, hopefully there's It is
really interesting that they're having so much activity

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and it seems to be you know, yeah, why is it just a

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big craze in the area where everybody's
looking. That doesn't seem to make sense

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because you don't you know, it's
not like Hoole Town to typically get really

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excited about something like that. Yeah. Well, and as I mentioned to

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you Lehandro that when The Daily Post
has been posting these stories. Along with

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the stories of the sightings, they
posted a poll that asked their readers,

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do you believe in aliens? And
eighty percent have responded yes, they believe

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in aliens, which is great.
And I know you and I have talked

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about this and that's probably true here
too, But I don't know if those

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numbers would come through if you talk
to people in person. Certainly an online

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poll that's kind of secret. But
I know when you talk to people in

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person, they're not so quick to
admit that they accept the idea that extraterrestrial

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life is out there, especially if
they're in a group of people. You

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know, they don't want their friends
to know. The default response is to

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laugh it off and wait and see
what other people respond. And it's always

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good to break that down, you
know, do you believe in extra trustrials?

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And then do you believe that?
You know, do you a foes

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or extraterrestrial that's always interesting because and
then again the other one they like to

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throw in theres do you believe extraterrestrials
are here? Visited? Earth or are

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here now, because the numbers vary, And that's the one I get really

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interested in. Right, we saw
a recent pull. Their pulls all the

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time, but he saw a recent
one that had fairly high numbers for people

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feeling that extraterrestrials are here with us
now. Yeah, and I don't remember

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what that was me either. Well, exciting, all right, very much.

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On the Costa Rica, a tour
guide captured a video of what could

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be a UFO, either above or
on top of a volcano in Costa Rica.

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The tour guide saw a shiny reflection
coming from the top of the Arena

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volcano, something he's never seen before, so he took out his camera to

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record video of the strange occurrence.
It's possible that the reflection was from a

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person on top of the volcano,
but as Inside Costa Rica points out,

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climbing the Arena volcano is illegal and
it's surrounded by a national park with restricted

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access. This video was shown in
the local news and it's currently being analyzed.

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Yeah, and it's I mean,
whatever it is, it's on the

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rim up there, right, and
it looks like it's on the rim.

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Yeah, possible it could be floating
behind it, but it's probably on top,

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right on the rim. Yeah.
So yeah, something big and refective

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up there. It's interesting. It
is interesting. And the individual who took

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this video works for Caravan Tours,
which is a very large tour company in

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Costa Rica. I'm in fact going
to be using them later this year,

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the Costa Rica trip. Cool.
They're very, very popular. They do

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lots and lots of tours consistently.
So I don't know how long this guy

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worked has worked for Caravan Tours,
but he's there all the time. Yeah,

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and his story there all the time. Yeah, and had never seen

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that, right, So it's an
interesting one. And I don't know if

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UFOs are attracted to volcanoes or not, but we have another UFO of volcano

220
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story. Many witnesses deserve strange,
strange lights and objects above a volcano in

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Chile as it erupted on June fifth, one witness managed to capture a photo

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of a UFO above the erupting volcano. Other photos and videos were allegedly taken,

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but according to LTMFO dot com,
experts have yet to authenticate this evidence,

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and that one was actually an object
in the air in the sky sort

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of to the side of a UFO
as it was erupting or as a volcano

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was dropping. Yeah, I know
in Mexico supposedly they've gotten videos of UFOs

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near volcanoes, but it does seem
to be somewhat of a popular thing.

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Interesting. Yeah, maybe they like
the warm space is cold, they're warming

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up next to a warm volcano,
and it could be you know, like

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again, there could be lots of
explanations, but yeah, certain certain things

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tend to tend themselves to have higher
photos and videos of UFOs, Like there

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are lots of UFO sightings around the
fourth of July. And while that could

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be because there are a lot of
fireworks in the sky, yeah, it

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could also be that more people are
looking up to the sky at that one

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to that point. So with volcanoes, more people are watching an erupting volcano.

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There's lots of live cams on volcanoes
too, right, and that's where

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people get UFO videos often. So
that would make a lot of sense that

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there's cameras on volcanoes a lot.
That's why we get them so much.

239
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Right, Well, I have another
story. I get excited when I hear

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things like this, But a professor
at Penn State is searching for Earth like

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00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.079
planets and is optimistic about finding a
planet or planets out there capable of sustaining

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life. Jim Casting is a distinguished
Professor of Geosciences in Penn State's College of

243
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Earth and Mineral Sciences and is an
expert in atmospheric evolution. Before joining Penn

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00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.799
State, Casting was a research scientist
that NASA's Aims Research Center, and he

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00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:37.519
has become one of the foremost experts
on planetary habitable zones. He even wrote

246
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a book called How to Find a
Habitable Planet. Casting says that lack of

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00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.839
funding is a big obstacle in the
search for extraterrestrial life. He recently told

248
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:51.480
Penn State Live. What hurt our
funding is the previous administration's interest in putting

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men back on the Moon and trying
to send them to Mars. Also,

250
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right now, a lot of astronomers
are more interested in researching the Big Bang

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and dark energy, as well as
gravitational waves. We need to convince more

252
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of them to be interested in planets
and the search for extraterrestrial life. Casting

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is just one professor and a growing
trend of university scientists searching for habital planets

254
00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:15.359
and extraterrestrial life. Yeah, kind
of coots, kind of like I wonder

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if that's going to be a major, major, major soon. I mean,

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it's like you could go to any
university and you can study extraterrestrial life

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and how to discover extraterrestrial life.
It's becoming so popular, extremely popular.

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I've actually had conversations with people recently
who I just met, and when they

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find out what I do, they
say, oh, our daughter is thinking

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of going into astrobiology. Really wow. In astrobiology, as we've talked about,

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really in mainstream universities, is a
new field, and asu Arizona State

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here in our hometown, happens to
be at the forefront of this. But

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I think you're right. I think
astrobiology and these other scientific fields of looking

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for extraterrestrial life is going to become
quite common, which is exciting. And

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I mean, of course, manned
spaceflight is very exciting, but searching for

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extra treasural life doesn't necessarily mean you
need manned a space flight. It's probably

267
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.880
easier with robots and rovers and things
like that. And if we focused on,

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for instance, looking for life on
Mars or is the Moon going to

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those places? Where there's water or
more likelihood of it. Who knows,

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maybe that would that would you know, be more fruitful. And it's always,

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of course exciting to think about what
will happen when that happens, but

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it's you know, I think also
we heard from Nick Pope who was at

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the Royal Society of Science, you
know, when they had their astrobiology conference,

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and how you know, up on
stage or in public, these guys

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don't want to acknowledge that they have
anything to do with UFOs, or think

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about UFOs or have any opinion.
But behind the scenes, when he went

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to dinner with them, when I
enjoyed a pint at the pub, you

278
00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.160
know, they were willing to say
that, yeah, we're into UFOs and

279
00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:08.000
we follow that stuff. And he
was surprised, he said, at how

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00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:14.519
many of these scientists really knew a
lot about UFO researching UFOs. That's why

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I love seeing these professors at these
universities where that is their main focus,

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and it's known that that's their main
focus. They talk about it, they

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00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.160
write books about it, and then
it becomes more accepted. Maybe they'll be

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a secret UFO society. It's where
they can get together and talk UFOs,

285
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:37.279
but they, you know, take
a pledge not to share. Who believes

286
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.920
in what that already exists? My
friends, oh my gosh, and Alejandro

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00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.519
will get to the last story for
today. A thirty year old one farmer

288
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.839
claims to have been hospitalized after an
encounter with the UFO in Manipur, India.

289
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:55.279
The Atham Tribune reports that the alleged
incident took place on the afternoon of

290
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June fifteenth, and according to the
witness, he was shooting video of fish

291
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farm with his cell phone when he
suddenly saw the UFO in the sky.

292
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.839
He claims that the UFO sped towards
him, resulting in an electric shock that

293
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.039
rendered him unconscious. After regaining consciousness, he returned home. His family took

294
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him to the hospital, where he
was treated and released the same day.

295
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.960
But in the article published by the
Assum Tribune yesterday, the witness said he

296
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:23.240
had not fully recovered from his UFO
encounter. Yet. Critics of the video

297
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.640
footage suggest the UFO was nothing more
than a glitch in the camera resulting from

298
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:33.279
shooting directly into the sun. However, there's been no official explanation for the

299
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:37.599
UFO or for the physical reaction claimed
by the witness. What do you think.

300
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.480
We've seen that glitch of the sun
a lot, and if you were

301
00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.680
to go out there people and video
the sun, it happens a lot.

302
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.400
You get a dark spot in the
middle of the sun, and a lot

303
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.240
of people think that UFOs, but
it's not. It's a defect of the

304
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.960
camera, right, and that's certainly
more likely to happen with a lower quality

305
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.319
PHONK than is a lower quality.
It looks like he was shooting at the

306
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.240
sun, though I remember looking at
this and I don't remember thinking, oh,

307
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:07.279
he's shooting right at the sun.
It's difficult to tell from the video

308
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.839
that we saw because it's so cut
together and weird. There's some interview with

309
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.319
the guy and so it's hard to
tell. It really didn't look like direct

310
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.759
into the sun but unsure. Yeah, and then he gets sick. Yeah,

311
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.599
yeah, interesting reaction. He apparently
fell back and knocked himself out.

312
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.559
Ouch. Yep. That's careful,
Yeah, be careful when you're shooting UFOs.

313
00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:34.400
I know it's difficult because you get
really excited and the adrenaline gets going,

314
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.839
but so I guess it's hard not
to pass out. If the UFO

315
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:42.839
zooms at you. Yeah, that's
scary. Always practice safe UFO hunting,

316
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.160
safe ufoing. Yep. Absolutely.
Well, that is it for the news

317
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:48.640
for today, Alejandro. Be sure
to check out these stories and more at

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00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.799
Openminds dot tv, your source for
UFO related news. I'm Jason McLellan,

319
00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.640
your Open Minds News correspondent, and
you've been briefed back to you, Alejandro.

320
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.960
All right, thank you, Jason. So a couple of the feature

321
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:06.400
stories that we've put up. We've
talked already last week a lot about Steven

322
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:14.079
Spielberg and Reagan and Reagan's comment during
the showing of the ET at the White

323
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.799
House in nineteen eighty e two.
And we have the guest list stuff.

324
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.599
I told you we'd have that up
and that iscept Now. I have a

325
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.880
review of Super eight up. It
was awesome. I liked it, Go

326
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:30.000
check it out. We also have
more information on the Argentinian Air Force UFO

327
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:34.720
Commission, so they've actually started the
commission. They've stated their mission which is

328
00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:41.480
to document, analyze, and study
unidentified phenomena in an orderly, systematic and

329
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:48.799
truthful manner by means of conventional control
systems on the airspace under the national jurisdiction

330
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:55.000
so that's really cool. This is
coming from the Argentinian Air Force. They're

331
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:59.880
actually starting a commission of officers who
are going to be looking into the uf

332
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:04.000
subject. They're going to be studying
cases, They're getting a website up,

333
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.519
they have a cool little logo up
already that we have at the website,

334
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:15.440
and this is a breakthrough. Another
breakthrough is they're actually meeting with civilian UFO

335
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:22.480
organizations, their version of move On
and others to ask them their advice,

336
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:27.079
to talk about cases they should look
into, to hear their stories, and

337
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:32.359
to work together. So they're working
together with the civilian So this is pretty

338
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:41.640
incredible, great news from Argentina taking
a very proactive, very open approach to

339
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.400
investigating UFOs. So really exciting news. And we have that story and all

340
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:52.640
the data on our website on that. Also, Jason and I have talked

341
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.480
about this before, even in detail, about a video or some pictures that

342
00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:03.079
Jason got in Mexico using some of
our equipment that's really high tech, and

343
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:07.039
what he thought of what he had
captured. So and he even felt that

344
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:11.880
this was possibly some sort of living
entity that he captured floating around in the

345
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.599
sky. So you can go to
our website and see hits video on that.

346
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:21.720
It's gone very popular. Whitley Strieber
posted it today. We've gotten a

347
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.839
lot of hits on that, so
go check that out too. And you

348
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:29.519
know, Jason tells a whole story
of how it happened and what he thinks

349
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:32.759
there as well. So those are
some of the cool stories that we have

350
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.920
up right now on the website.
So you're gonna want to go check those

351
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:42.319
out Open Minds dot tv. However, without further ado, let us go

352
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:48.160
ahead. I'm really excited to get
Steve Vulk on the line. So let's

353
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:55.480
talk with Steve Vulk about fringe Ology, his new book. All right,

354
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.960
I am so excited, and I
always say that I always am usually,

355
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.240
I'm so excited to have Steve Bulk
on the show. Steve, thanks for

356
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.359
joining us. Thank you so much
for having me. I've been looking forward

357
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.960
to this. Well, I'm really
excited about your book and the whole idea.

358
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:17.400
I mean, it kind of draws
upon my own experiences because I was

359
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:22.519
really a journalism student when I really
got involved with the paranormal and it was

360
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.440
kind of, you know, a
similar to kind of like, well,

361
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:27.200
let's look into this. I mean, you know, at first I blew

362
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.160
it off, and when I took
a hard look, it was like,

363
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:37.920
wow, you know, I can't
blow all of this off. Yeah.

364
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:41.359
I mean obviously, for me,
I had in a way a leg up

365
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:44.279
on some people because I grew up
with this kind of family ghost story in

366
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:49.000
my background, and so I always
had some sort of interest in the paranormal

367
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:55.920
in general and a kind of empathy
for witnesses to strange things, because it

368
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.359
just seemed to me like in our
situation, creaking floorboards and superstition couldn't account

369
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:06.559
for it, you know, And
that's sort of the weather balloon equivalent of

370
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:11.240
the description for ghosts, you know
that the art skeptic will give, right,

371
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:17.720
So I always just kind of felt
like the explanation that's given should at

372
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:22.720
least to some degree match what's been
reported, and that's often not the case.

373
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:30.960
So I came into it really just
sort of interested in delving into some

374
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.079
of the areas I hadn't before,
right, So I'd done some reading on

375
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.839
these things. I certainly looked into
ghosts quite a bit because of my own

376
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.440
family background. But for me as
a reporter now, to take the skills

377
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.359
I've learned I mean, I've been
reporting for fifteen years to say, Okay,

378
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:51.200
how am I going to tell or
really exciting and in some ways hopefully

379
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:55.400
you know, definitive UFO story,
right, And it was just a gas

380
00:28:56.200 --> 00:29:00.559
now getting into you being a journal
and you mentioned that in the book that

381
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.200
kind of the rule of THEMB for
journalists is to make fun of this.

382
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.119
You know, go out during Halloween
and film The Ghost Hunter and kind of

383
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:11.759
I have some tongue in cheek fun
with it. Now, did you run

384
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:18.559
across that when you began as a
journalist and how did you Did you have

385
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:23.000
a problem with that at first?
Well, I mean it's in a lot

386
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.440
of ways. It's not like it's
ever even spoken. It's just sort of

387
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.480
assumed. And I think it's just
by tradition and custom. This is how

388
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.720
these things are covered. You cover
them in Halloween, or you cover them

389
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.960
in time with some big movie premiere, and you do it in a way

390
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:41.640
that winks at the reader and lets
the reader know you know, you're not

391
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.559
one of them. And what's funny
is I mean, I'm not one of

392
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.680
them. I have a very balanced
view of this, I think, But

393
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.039
at the same time, no,
you're one of them. I've read your

394
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.880
book. Sorry, I wanted them. Which one of them am? I?

395
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.319
No that I want to get into
them and the who's the them?

396
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.200
But who them is? It depends
on which side of the fence you're standing

397
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.279
on right right, you know,
Well, so you can tell me which

398
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:08.720
one of them I am? I
guess as this was, I'll look forward

399
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:15.519
to the diagnosis. Well, the
hard part is just by entertaining the idea

400
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.880
to a lot of people, you're
one of them, right, And I

401
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.440
just think that's total bass. I
mean, I think that's fortunate. Yeah,

402
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.759
that position falls down and throws up
all over itself before it even reaches

403
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.920
the first hurdle. You know,
if you don't look into something, you

404
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.680
can't know what's going on. It's
that that part to me seems pretty clear

405
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.039
one, especially as a journal journal
if that's what you do. You look

406
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.440
into something, You take an unbiased
look, to take a to see what's

407
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.960
there. And you know, that's
what I love about journalism and what we

408
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.440
try to do. If you're not
making a you're not forming opinions, you're

409
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:53.240
informing about the back. Well,
and I have to say something else that's

410
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:57.519
been important to my career as a
journalist is I started out in alternative newsweeklies

411
00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:03.200
and I work at Philadelphia Magazine NAW
and have for several years. And in

412
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:07.480
both of those realms, one of
the things we talk about and fess up

413
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:15.039
to is that true objectivity is impossible. You know. You come to this

414
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:21.039
with some sort of worldview to begin
with, whatever it is you're covering,

415
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.720
and what's good about, say the
alternative weeklies. And for people who don't

416
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:26.880
know what those are, it's like
think the Village Voice in New York,

417
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:33.319
you know, that's the most famous
of them, or the Boston Phoenix in

418
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.400
Boston. But every city, you
know, most major cities have an alternative

419
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:42.759
weekly. Right. We allow for
the fact that we have a worldview by

420
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.440
going ahead and putting it on the
page, you know, right and so

421
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.559
and in here at Philadelphia Magazine they
always say, well, what's your take?

422
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.720
You know, that's the phrase we
use here. So in other words,

423
00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.160
what you know, where are you
coming out on this story? What's

424
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.920
your position? Ultimately at the end
of the day, I mean, I

425
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:04.440
make it admission. I think somewhere
in here that one of the reasons I

426
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.559
didn't look into alien abductions is because
it was just sort of too much for

427
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.680
me, right, I mean,
it was just that part was just somehow

428
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:15.359
a step too far. I would
have had such a hard time wrapping my

429
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:22.079
mind around that is that possibility and
dealing with it head on that I decided

430
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:25.039
to stick to sightings, And so
I sort of admitted I could have done

431
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:30.279
it, sure, you know,
but it would have been a bigger challenge,

432
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:32.119
right, And so I decided to
just sort of table that. You

433
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:35.440
know. The other issue for me
doing this, and this is something I

434
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:40.079
hope people come to understand about both
UFO coverage in particular, since that's,

435
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:45.039
you know, your focus, and
paranormal coverage in general, is that particularly

436
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.079
with this book like this one,
right, I'm getting into mental telepathy,

437
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:52.839
I'm getting into ghosts, I'm getting
into UFOs, spoon bending, prayer,

438
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:58.319
meditation, dreaming, a wide array
of topics, each of which is the

439
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.400
subject of books in and of itself
that I'm doing at a chapter's length.

440
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:07.079
So I also had to make decisions, real, really ruthless decisions early in

441
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:08.920
the process. Where am I going
to draw the line, like, so

442
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:13.000
I don't end up trying to cover
everything and miss my deadline by five and

443
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.160
a half years, right, And
yeah, and I think where UFOs are

444
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:20.319
concerned. I mean, look,
I'm over the last three years in particular,

445
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:22.839
right. I mean, I've been
listening to Coast to Coast constantly.

446
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.599
I've been listening to this show quite
a bit. I've been listening to lots

447
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:32.400
of different paranormal radio shows and podcasts. And you hear people talk a lot

448
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:38.160
about the media ignoring these things.
I think one of the things that encourages

449
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:44.400
the media to ignore them is that
there's so much paperwork, and there's such

450
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:50.480
a glut of you know, cases
that different people consider absolutely pivotal. Well,

451
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.759
you've got to know about this case. And I remember, I can't

452
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.359
remember who sent me an email,
but at one point I got an email

453
00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:00.119
from some researcher telling me I had
to look into the Trent case in Micmanville,

454
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.920
and then if I didn't, I
just shouldn't even bother. Oh wow,

455
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.200
It's like, look, you know, and that's a fascinating little case.

456
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:08.599
I mean, I did look into
it. It's a fascinating little case.

457
00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:13.239
Somebody could easily build a very worthwhile
chapter out of that. But it's

458
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.639
not as if there aren't you know, tons of other cases that are worth

459
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:20.960
looking into. And so I think
for a reporter who's looking at well,

460
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.719
I'm going to go ahead and cover
this, a lot of times they're going

461
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:29.119
to take the path of least resistance, and seeing the amount of literature that's

462
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:34.760
out there, particularly on UFOs,
I mean, it's it is daunting and

463
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.960
a lot of decisions need to be
made up front about what you're gonna what

464
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.559
you're gonna read, and what you're
going to cover. And I think for

465
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:43.440
a lot of reporters it's easier to
just keep their tongue in their cheek,

466
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.840
you know, right about the standard
plate story and move on, rather than

467
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:52.760
do any actual research. Well,
I've learned what doing pr for? Move

468
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:59.920
on that exactly, that that you've
got lots of people, even a move

469
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.840
fun people. And when we get
into Stephenville, it was a perfect example

470
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.239
of this. Aren't really upset with
the media and how they cover it,

471
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:13.280
so they aren't helpful with the media, and then of course they're surprising the

472
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:17.079
media doesn't cover it well. Or
there are times I always took their perspective,

473
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.039
help them out as much as possible
and only give them the good meaty

474
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.519
stuff which they loved. They love
meaty stuff. They love to say a

475
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:31.519
major said this, or an astronaut
said that, or in the koustinage situation

476
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:36.519
that the presidents had said, uh
this or that. And so it depends

477
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:37.599
on if you if you give it
to them, and you've got to talk

478
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.880
to them in the first place in
order to give them some of that good

479
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.679
stuff. Otherwise, like I learned, like what you said there, the

480
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:51.360
media is largely lazy and they're gonna, well they're they're busy people. Yeah,

481
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:53.760
there's just so many deadline stacks.
Yeah, I should say, that's

482
00:35:53.800 --> 00:36:00.400
a better way to say it.
Yeah. And then also they they're gonna

483
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:05.239
want themselves to look good. Yeah, and you got to keep that mind

484
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.239
and that sometimes that doesn't work in
your favor, but if you're careful at

485
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:12.039
crafting the way you communicate with them, it can work in your favor.

486
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.360
Yes, I mean I agree with
all of that. And you know I

487
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:20.960
had to deal when you talk about
the media, you wouldn't believe I call

488
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.480
it the second head. Look,
then I got a lot when I would

489
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:25.519
somebody would say I heard you're working
on a book, what is it?

490
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:29.360
Yeah, And I tell them what
it was. They would sort of rear

491
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.960
back, and you can see they
were just reappraising me on the spot and

492
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.199
sometimes literally, And it's funny when
you think about it, because it's a

493
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.599
subconscious reaction in their part. I
think they would literally look me up and

494
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:44.039
down, like look down to my
shoes, you know, and up like

495
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.199
I'm gonna be wearing clown shoes I
got. And I think the reason they

496
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:51.880
had to reappraise me was because,
you know, they know me as somebody

497
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:57.480
who goes to like Philadelphia's cedious drug
corners and reports on what's going on there.

498
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:04.400
And does you know a lot of
street level journalism and covers politics in

499
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:08.199
town and these things are seen.
Is so very very different, you know.

500
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.639
But I mean, at the end
of the day, its story is

501
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.559
a story. And I do feel
like the media, while I'm not sure

502
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.920
that anyone should necessarily have a UFO
beat, right, I think that might

503
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:22.039
be a little much that. Yeah. I do think, however, that

504
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.760
from a journalistic perspective, You've probably
heard the phrase low hanging fruit, right,

505
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.239
this is low hanging fruit. You
know. There's these are dramatic stories

506
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:35.840
that, in some cases, rightly
or wrongly, right, they change people's

507
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:43.960
lives. You've got generally sympathetic protagonists, who are people who are not deluding

508
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:50.039
themselves, but they saw something they
couldn't explain and they're trying to reframe sometimes

509
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:53.760
the whole world according to what it
was they just saw. Now, me

510
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:58.840
as a professional storyteller, like,
that's great material to work with. Why

511
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.920
would I turn that down? Yeah? But the custom is to turn that

512
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:07.440
down and to keep moving. Were
you hesitant to take this project on?

513
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:10.840
Oh? Yeah? And I mean
there were nights, I have to be

514
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.519
very honest with you, Even once
I took it on and had the contract

515
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.519
and all this sort of stuff,
there were nights where it just sort of

516
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:21.840
hit me when I was doing and
I would actually like wake up at three

517
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:23.679
am with my heart racing, thinking, my god, what have I done?

518
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:29.559
Because my career is going just fine. You know, I'm real happy,

519
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:37.000
and now I'm people are forced by
by just the culture in a way

520
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.159
to reappraise me, and I do
I want to go through that? And

521
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:45.000
what I kept coming back to you
was that these stories are just so common,

522
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:49.159
you know that, Yeah, twenty
percent of Americans. Depending on the

523
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.440
pole you're looking at, it's always
around here, you know, right,

524
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.679
report a ghost around twenty percent report
a UFO, you know, having seen

525
00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:00.519
one of thirty percent. Sometimes I've
seen as high as forty percent report some

526
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:05.880
kind of psychic experience. And I'm
not saying that all these experiences by any

527
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.599
means are real, right, but
well, it's always a real experience,

528
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:15.280
you know, it's always a real
experience. Something happened that was odd and

529
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:22.039
that this person may still be trying
to figure out. And for us to

530
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.800
then stigmatize. Gosh, when you
look at that Baylor Religion survey, sixty

531
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:30.280
eight percent of America holds some sort
of paranormal belief, you know, whatever,

532
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:38.519
whatever the subject might be. To
stigmatize people over this, stigmatize is

533
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:44.880
such a massive proportion of the population
that just seems ridiculous. And so the

534
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:52.400
books in part a permission slip for
people to tell their stories and be willing

535
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:59.280
to consider all the possibilities that might
explain it. And that includes the mundane

536
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:05.400
ones, but yes, goes all
the way out into the ones that qualify

537
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:09.000
as paranormal. At this point,
do you regret writing the book? Not

538
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:12.679
at all? Good, Not at
all. At this point, I'm very

539
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.480
very glad I did it. At
this point, I've gotten a lot of

540
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:20.559
good feedback, and it is an
incredible thing to go through the process and

541
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:24.519
be able to look at the final
product. Did you have any preconceived notions

542
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:30.800
about the people you would be interviewing
or talking to when you started doing the

543
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:38.239
research that were changed. That's such
a good question. I think I've learned

544
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:43.719
enough over the years that you've just
got to go meet people and sort of

545
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:49.320
take it on, and my preconceptions, if this makes sense, end up

546
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.119
being formed in the first few seconds
I meet someone, and sometimes those get

547
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:57.480
exploded, if that makes sense.
So, like in other words, I

548
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.280
hadn't everything before I met somebody.
I think with a pretty open mind,

549
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.119
because I've just learned that, you
know, the sound of someone's voice on

550
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:07.280
the phone doesn't tell you what they're
going to look like. The quotes you've

551
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.320
seen in the paper don't tell you
what wasn't quoted. You know, what

552
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:13.400
they what else they might have said, or what else might be be behind

553
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:17.000
all that. So I really kind
of take people on fresh when I go

554
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.880
to meet with them. But the
funny part is the times when you first

555
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:27.159
see someone and you have an impression
of them and then that gets exploded,

556
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.360
you know, like half an hour
later or something like that. Yeah,

557
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:32.320
Like the first thirty seconds you might
be thinking, ah, you know,

558
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:37.599
I don't know about this guy,
and then half an hour later they do

559
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:42.719
something or say something where you're they
turn your head around. You know.

560
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:46.079
One of the things I found is
that some of the people, particularly in

561
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:52.400
the UFO field, they have a
source experience i'd call it, like,

562
00:41:53.199 --> 00:42:00.320
so they start talking to you about
Niberu and the alien implant and an arm

563
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:05.199
that they don't actually want to get
removed because you know, they make they

564
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.880
give you some reason for it,
but it just doesn't sound rational, right,

565
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:10.000
because if you have something like that
in your arm, you'd figure you'd

566
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:15.239
want to get it out and prove
that it's there. Hm. And I

567
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:17.559
had I met a couple of people
like that who seem more interested in being

568
00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:22.480
able to go to UFO conferences conferences
and say that they have something in them,

569
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.599
then actually get it removed and verify
that they have something in them,

570
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:30.280
right, you know. But with
those with those people as well, and

571
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:32.440
I have to confess, when I
hear this sort of thing, I would

572
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:36.599
immediately be thinking, well, there's
not going to be much for me here.

573
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:38.000
And what I started finding out is
that they had what I call this

574
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:46.519
source experience. Something strange happened,
They saw something that wigged them out.

575
00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:51.920
You know that they couldn't explain.
That sounds really odd, and that sighting

576
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.719
or whatever it was, sounds very
credible in comparison to the other stuff they're

577
00:42:55.719 --> 00:43:00.239
saying, and it kind of affected
their filter, if you know what I

578
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:04.920
mean. I know exactly what you
mean. Yeah, And so now they

579
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:08.119
start viewing I don't want to say
everything, that's too big a word,

580
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:13.239
right, but they start viewing a
lot of things as potentially, you know,

581
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:19.079
either part of some conspiracy or strange
or paranormal, when those things might

582
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:23.360
actually have a very reasonable explanation.
But there's that core source experience that started

583
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:27.079
it all. Did you mind if
I talk about some of the besides UFOs

584
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.280
for a second, some of them
what something designs UFOs for a second.

585
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.559
Oh no, definitely, you know, cover the gambut. And now it's

586
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:37.920
just going to say that, you
know, I love the psychological aspect too,

587
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:43.599
and even with people who are very
grounded, people I've seen exactly what

588
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:46.840
you're talking about, they have an
incredible UFO experience. But then all of

589
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:53.280
a sudden you know, they're seeing
things that are definitely airplanes, and that's

590
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:58.480
the UFO. They kind of they're
filter a kid to just like you're talking

591
00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:01.880
about about, right. And so
in the first chap try and deal with

592
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:07.519
Elizabeth koopl Ross, the lady who
wrote on duson Dying as a psychologist and

593
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:14.800
you know, famous book kickstarted the
whole hospice movement nationally and internationally, you

594
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:16.599
know, rightfully, one of the
most important books of the last century.

595
00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:21.079
It's just, you know, it's
rare to be able to say that about

596
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.679
a book, but that was really
qualifies and Cooubler Ross, in the midst

597
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:29.960
of researching what terminal illness was like
for the people going through it, for

598
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.960
the medical staff around them, and
for of course their loved ones, and

599
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:39.039
coming up with a kind of psychological
diagnosis of all these people, was also

600
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:45.119
hearing these stories of near death experiences
and then that phrase hadn't been coined at

601
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.199
the time. It was, you
know, the mid sixties to late sixties

602
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:52.599
when she was doing this work,
and so this was stuff that nobody had

603
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:57.320
heard about before. There were other
people I actually ran across my research.

604
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:00.519
There was an Army colonel named Diane
Corcoran, who was a nurse at the

605
00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:04.519
time who had an experience very similar
to kouble Ross's, and that she was

606
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:09.440
hearing these stories from soldiers in Vietnam. But anyway, kouble Ross encounters the

607
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:15.880
near death experience, which I consider
to be still unexplained. And it doesn't

608
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:17.719
mean that they won't eventually come up
with a material explanation for it. I

609
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.559
just don't think they have yet,
and so not to go too deep down

610
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.519
that particular rabbit hole. But you
know, the near death experience, if

611
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:31.639
it's brain based, the different circumstances
under which it takes place, it should

612
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:36.360
produce a different experience, right,
So if somebody was under anesthesia or not

613
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:39.719
under anesthesia, they're lacking for oxygen
or not lacking for oxygen, it should

614
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:44.840
produce some change in the experience because
the brain is mediating everything we take in.

615
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:47.159
But the skeptics don't really have a
model for that yet, for how

616
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:53.719
these big differences in the circumstances create
any meaningful differences in the experience itself.

617
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:59.480
So I considered at this point still
unexplained. So kuble Ros encounters this experience

618
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:01.480
and the next thing, you know, man, you know, six years

619
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:06.679
later, after on Dathan dying,
she's writing the forward for Raymond Mooney's Life

620
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:08.960
after Life. That's fine, that's
good. She's outing herself now as someone

621
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:14.599
who had experienced these things. But
in the backlash to that, when she

622
00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:20.880
was being criticized for having done that, she starts seeing psychics. She starts

623
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:25.400
seeing really just occultists, frankly,
and she ends up getting taken in by

624
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:30.000
a con man. And it was
a really long con that went on for

625
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:32.559
a number of years and did severe
damage. I write about this in the

626
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:37.159
book. It did severe damage to
her credibility and her reputation, and it's

627
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.800
a cautionary tale the way I see
it. But the one thing it doesn't

628
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:44.960
do, and the one thing it
doesn't alter, is that those initial experiences.

629
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:46.639
I mean, it wasn't just one
patient who told her about something like

630
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:52.559
this. I talked to her,
you know, her research partner, the

631
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.960
Reverence she worked with at the time, and he said they had two of

632
00:46:54.960 --> 00:47:00.320
those long, deep filing cabinet drawers
just filled with your death experiences and what

633
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:06.840
they call death by visitations. So
they encountered some real mystery and it damaged

634
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.639
for filter. That's the only way
to put it. And I just think

635
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:14.079
that that goes on a lot.
That's why I think, you know,

636
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:17.960
reporting on one of the reasons why
reporting on it and communicating this sort of

637
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:27.039
information is so important because in our
Western thinking, our very rational, logical

638
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:34.000
kind of perspective, we don't prepare
people for the situation. Let's say they

639
00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:37.159
see a UFO and like you explain, and like I try to explain,

640
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:42.639
that just means unidentified, doesn't mean
she knows what it's from. But they

641
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:47.679
need to be prepared to take some
sort of action to alleviate that, even

642
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:53.000
the trauma or the effect that has
on them personally and otherwise. I think

643
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:58.480
stuff like this happens when they don't
have an outlet. There's these extremes that

644
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:05.960
people go to. And here's an
example where unfortunately this person had ran into

645
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:08.920
a lot of problems. Yeah,
oh, I mean think about it.

646
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.679
To go from really the heights of
her profession to being a pariah. I

647
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.000
mean, there are few, you
know, I'd have to think long and

648
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:22.320
hard about. I mean, Michael
Jackson sell that hard. Yeah, you

649
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:25.760
know, that's the kind of cultural
icon you have to think about. You

650
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:32.000
know, who else in our the
last fifty years has fallen to that degree.

651
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:38.480
Yeah, and unfortunately people do fall, and I think it's one of

652
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:45.719
it's something you definitely tackle them.
For instance, let's take Kusinich. Yeah,

653
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:51.199
you know, he fell when he
was interviewed very near the Stephenville period

654
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:58.039
of time on by Tim Russert and
of course asking him about his UFO siding

655
00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:02.199
that was written about in Shirley McLain
book. And I thought, for me

656
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:07.679
and I would like to hear your
perspective as well, it was kind of

657
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:15.760
creepy when Tim Russard asked that question
and people laughed. Yeah, I see

658
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:19.320
when we talk about him falling.
Now here's a guy who, as near

659
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.880
as I can figure, I'm not
sure that his filter was damaged by what

660
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:27.599
he saw necessarily, and I'm not
sure if that paradigm, but it shows

661
00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:32.960
you culturally that to just even go
here at all is for boton. Now,

662
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.440
I think there's an extra layer to
this also with you know, Kusinich

663
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:43.199
was considered this kind of marginal candidate
to begin with. I do think even

664
00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:46.039
his physical stature and his appearance and
the fact that people already described him as

665
00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:50.719
elfin didn't work in his favor,
you know, So it was like the

666
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:53.719
deck was just completely stacked against him. And you know, Tim Russer knew

667
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:58.960
exactly what position he was putting Dennis
kussinic in and just as a reporter,

668
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:00.079
I'll tell you this man, I
was going to do something like that to

669
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:05.119
somebody on live TV, I would
know in my heart that I'm about to

670
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.000
wipe this guy out of the election, right, And that's exactly what Russer

671
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:13.039
did. It was I mean,
you know, Kucinich couldn't have begun with

672
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:17.840
a more rational response. He said, very forthrightly, with no offling when

673
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:22.079
he said, you know, did
you see UFOs? Where I think Russert

674
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:25.519
wrapped up his question and he said, yes, right, so they're you

675
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:30.440
know, leaving no doubt and not
seending the hedge at all, which I

676
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:32.199
really admire. And when you watch
the YouTube video of it, it's pretty

677
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:38.639
dramatic, but immediately people gasp and
start laughing, and he of course reaches

678
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:43.920
for what the definition of a of
a UFO is people, it's an unidentified

679
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:47.159
flying object. And you know,
I actually side with the people to some

680
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:51.599
extent, even though I didn't get
into this in the chapter. Who want

681
00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:54.000
to go with UAP? Right?
Unidentified aerial phenomena. I have a lot

682
00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:59.920
of respect for that position. But
anyway, he starts to emphasize the idea

683
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:05.119
five part of that acronym, and
and people won't let go. I mean

684
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:09.039
you just hear them continuing to titter
and laugh. And his candidacy, while

685
00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:14.800
it was never gonna result in the
presidential nomination, was over in those few

686
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:19.960
seconds by you know, this Tim
Russer flash knockout, by just invoking UFO

687
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:22.039
at all. The staggering part about
it to me too, is that,

688
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:27.480
look, I mean, Jimmy Carter
talked about it, Rat talked about it,

689
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:32.119
you know, and Hillary Clinton,
I mean Hillary Clinton actually dedicated people

690
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:40.440
to work with Lawrence Rockefeller on this. She actively was doing something regarding UFO

691
00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:45.400
research. But of course, and
she was on stage right there. Yeah,

692
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:47.440
it would have been interesting to pursue
her on that. I have to

693
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:51.400
be tell you to choose. I
didn't. I haven't done the full load

694
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:54.119
of research on that. There's that
image of her with the book under her

695
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:58.880
arm, yes, and you know, there's every possibility and again I haven't

696
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.920
looked into it that. You know, you have a guest and he gives

697
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:05.039
you a book, and you you
end up carrying it with you. You

698
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:07.119
know, there's more to that.
You'd have to look at presidential UFO dot

699
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:15.000
com. There are documents would show
Rockefeller working with the president the advisor on

700
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:19.559
science, and they talked about how
they were channeling this information through Hillary Clinton's

701
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.239
office, and her office was it
was about UFOs, It wasn't about something

702
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.360
else, because that's the only thing
I heard that it might have been something

703
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:30.119
else. Definitely there's another one then, But should we even need another one?

704
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:32.400
Like it says what I mean,
like should we yea said Carter and

705
00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:36.440
Reagan, And we've got just this
whole history in which people are seeing this

706
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:39.239
and all he's saying is he doesn't
know what it was. Call him down,

707
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:44.519
people relast. It was just kind
of quickly that they were just yeah,

708
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:51.039
just so. I think people kind
of wanted to get rid of Kustinitch

709
00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:55.239
anyways, because they felt that he
was frivolous and his campaign wasn't going anywhere,

710
00:52:55.280 --> 00:53:00.679
and so they wanted to traversation.
But so who knows if they would

711
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:05.360
have reacted the same way if the
question was asked to Hillary or something similar.

712
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:09.840
But it's an example of right just
being associated with the topic kind of

713
00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:15.639
hurting people, and you know,
I talked to the LA Times during that

714
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:19.920
and that's what I said. I
said, Unfortunately, you know, people

715
00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:22.599
bring it up in politics to hurt
their opponents, and it works very effectively.

716
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.559
But at least their coverage was pretty
good on that story because I mentioned

717
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:31.599
the other presidents and they put that
in there and they had a serious tone,

718
00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:36.599
and I felt and I get your
perspective on this too, because most

719
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:40.760
of your chapter on UFOs is around
Stephen Bill. That Stephen Bill in the

720
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:47.320
media. Even though there were aspects
of it that weren't positive and spun in

721
00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:53.159
kind of a silly way, it
still overall was treated a lot better than

722
00:53:53.280 --> 00:54:00.480
some of the previous UFO stories.
I agree with that, and I that

723
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:06.239
when you consider the history of these
reports, this was one of the better,

724
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:13.039
better treated groups of witnesses that you're
going to run across. At the

725
00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:16.159
same time, though, I do
think that some of these you know,

726
00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:21.800
the fact that the Walmart line got
recycled again and again, and Steve Allen,

727
00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:24.599
for those who you know, need
the background on this, had described

728
00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:29.360
the UFO initially as being as big
as a Walmart, and that quote was

729
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:32.480
continually recycled, and you know,
look, as a reporter, I printed

730
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:36.519
it. Of course I printed in
this context. But I would have wanted

731
00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:38.920
to print it too, because it's
just it's fascinating and it's a colorful detail.

732
00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:44.079
But it also serves to locate him
in this very specific you know,

733
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:51.320
socio cultural context, right or sootconomic
context. And Ricky Sorels, this is

734
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.960
the one I don't think I would
have done. He kept being described as

735
00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:59.920
a deer hunter, you know,
and in that space, that parenthetical space

736
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:06.239
where people will insert between commas what
someone's profession is. Instead of saying machinist,

737
00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:08.440
you know, or instead of describing
as him as a husband and father,

738
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:12.880
you know, they described him as
a deer hunter. And that certainly,

739
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:19.159
I mean, it just sends that
that hicic label out there, and

740
00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.000
and that to me was really unfortunate. And and that was one of the

741
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.559
things I wanted to try and get
across in that chapter is you know,

742
00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:31.039
these weren't hicks, whatever that means, you know, to people. Now,

743
00:55:32.920 --> 00:55:36.320
these were from what I could see
and from the people I met,

744
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.400
I mean, these were credible people
who saw something that they couldn't explain that

745
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:45.679
sat outside you know, all the
normal boxes for them. Here's the question

746
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:50.519
I have for you. And that's
always been curious to me because I was

747
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.599
there, you know, when the
Well Stephen thing, Stephenville thing started and

748
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:59.000
h you know, I was working
for move On doing PR and you know,

749
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.400
talking to low News, talking to
AP, talking to different news sources

750
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:07.679
all of the time. And there
were lots of stories about UFOs very similar

751
00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:14.519
to Stevenville, with multiple sighting witnesses, people seeing something at night in rural

752
00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:19.079
locations, and in fact not too
Just a few days before there was a

753
00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:23.320
sighting in San Diego by some college
students, one of them at least a

754
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:27.760
physics student. And I thought that
was a really interesting story, and I

755
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:31.159
was excited for that one to blow
up, and that was Fox covered it.

756
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:35.559
So I get the call from Angela, work with her to get her

757
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:37.480
with the move On people, get
the call from the AP lady, which

758
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.920
is exciting that she's going to write
on it, but it's just kind of

759
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:46.639
an everyday thing. I never could
understand why that story blew up, as

760
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:51.599
opposed to the many stories that were
very similar. In fact, some of

761
00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:54.519
them, like I said, in
the middle of downtown San diego. Yeah,

762
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:58.079
you know, who knows what that
alchemy is? Right? I mean

763
00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:02.760
one of the things that I would
say, and don't I don't remember specifically

764
00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:09.760
everything that was going on at the
time. What else was happening in that

765
00:57:09.880 --> 00:57:14.719
few day window that allowed us to
take off? So, in other words,

766
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:20.079
was there so little happening for whatever
reason in that forty eight hour time

767
00:57:20.119 --> 00:57:23.159
span or seventy two hour timespan when
when the story started to leak out of

768
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:28.039
Stephenville that people felt like they needed
something to run with us? I mean,

769
00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:31.239
because to me, what really made
that story take off was the amount

770
00:57:31.239 --> 00:57:36.239
of coverage CNN and Fox were giving
it, right, you know, when

771
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:42.039
the national news agencies like that arrive
and I felt that their tone was hugely

772
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:45.719
respectful. Yeah, I felt that
too. I mean it was shocking.

773
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:50.039
I was having Hurraldo kept calling me, his guys kept calling me. We

774
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:52.559
want to send someone out, Where
should we send someone? When can we

775
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:54.519
send someone? Can you help us
with this? Can you help us with

776
00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:59.480
that? And you know we've got
well why didn't you tell us that CNN

777
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:00.920
was going to be there? And
why didn't you tell me? And it's

778
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:07.760
like, you know, it was
we were inundated and that really surprised me

779
00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:13.800
that, I mean, it got
that big and so much attention, like

780
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:17.840
you said, from the big guys. I can tell you I think it

781
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:22.119
it happened now. I mean I
wanted to kick around an idea or two

782
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:34.440
there, But to me, it's
that you've got multiple witnesses from different angles

783
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:38.440
and perspectives who weren't all seeing it
together in one group, you know,

784
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:43.719
And and for me as a reporter, that starts to lend it credibility right

785
00:58:43.719 --> 00:58:47.519
away that you know, it's something
a little odd must have been happening because

786
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:52.239
you've got people who it's not like
they were all like Steve Allen had a

787
00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:54.239
little group of friends out there.
Well, it wasn't just Steve Allen and

788
00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:58.320
his group of friends that saw it. You know, there were other law

789
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:00.280
enforcements. There were not other laws. There was a LA enforcement there,

790
00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:04.719
but there were law enforcement people that
saw it from different angles, multiple law

791
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:08.280
enforcement people, there were you know, other citizens. I mean, they

792
00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:15.119
sort of had this thing staked out
from a lot of different angles, and

793
00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:19.800
that's that's gosh. That gives it
a lot of a lot of weight.

794
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:23.840
I mean, some of the illusory
sort of explanations fell down right away,

795
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:29.079
like the one about sunlight glinting off
a jetline, because I mean sunlight glinting

796
00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:31.079
off a jetliner. Hey, look, I'll give you the benefit of the

797
00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:36.400
doubt man that that dramatic description that
Steve Allen and as people described, I

798
00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:37.960
mean, I don't think they could
be described. It could be explained by

799
00:59:38.119 --> 00:59:43.039
some some like living off a getliner
at all. But let's just even pretend

800
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:47.639
that it could. Why would somebody
then another mile or two over in another

801
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:52.239
direction also see something mm hm,
you know what I mean? Because those

802
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:55.519
sorts of illusions are are very definitely
based on, you know, the angle

803
00:59:55.559 --> 01:00:00.800
at which you're standing and perceiving this
thing from. So so that one just

804
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:04.639
right out of the gate was so
laughable. Yeah. And then at the

805
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:07.559
other enigma for me with the media
was that then the biggest part of the

806
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:12.719
story I felt was it wasn't that
big of a deal as far as sightings

807
01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:20.039
go until the radar analysis was done, where we had a radar expert and

808
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:23.639
a guy at MUFON who were able
to determine that there was radar data from

809
01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:29.039
the FAA that could show that there
was an object where those witnesses said it

810
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:32.360
was, but that got practically no
media at all. If it wasn't for

811
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.079
Angela helping us to get it on
Larry King, it wouldn't have even gotten

812
01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:40.480
on there. Yeah, I mean, they just moved on. And I

813
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:44.760
think it shows you to some degree
that, you know, when they were

814
01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:52.920
covering it, were they ever necessarily
taking it all that seriously? You know,

815
01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:57.880
I just still look back at that
part of the episode and I tried

816
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:04.440
to view things a lot to the
the lens of you know, believer of

817
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:09.719
v skeptic, right, and so
like looking at the James mcgahey explanation,

818
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:21.400
mcgahey ends up getting quoted saying that
this they took a couple of hits from

819
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:25.039
from the radar data and drew a
line between them, and it was just

820
01:01:25.159 --> 01:01:30.159
such a convenient And I certainly and
accused him of being wilfully deceitful. But

821
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:34.920
in the event, you know,
it sort of turns out to be deceitful,

822
01:01:35.679 --> 01:01:38.519
because that's not the track that's most
interesting, you know, that that's

823
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:44.119
the track that I suppose could be
coincidence. I mean, the other track

824
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:46.920
that's so fascinating is the one where
they had over you know, well over

825
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:53.639
one hundred straight hits from a tower
that wasn't malfunctioning. And you know,

826
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:58.159
they had a radar expert in tow
here who could tell them what are the

827
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:01.280
signs of a functioning tower, and
this is not a functioning tower, and

828
01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:05.880
it corresponded to some of the witness
testimony. Now here's my thing, Man,

829
01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:09.039
that doesn't mean it was an alien
spacecraft. I'm not saying it wasn't

830
01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:15.519
an alien spacecraft or that it was, but it definitely doesn't mean that because

831
01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:21.199
there was something there that James mcgahey
can't explain that aliens came to visit Stephenville.

832
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:25.639
But mcgahey and the skeptics act like
they seem to me anyway, to

833
01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:29.639
act like if they just sort of
throw their hands up in the air at

834
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:34.440
some point, or even give Muffon
credit for having unearthed more than they gave

835
01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:38.000
them credit for that. Somehow,
the whole world's going to fall apart if

836
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:43.360
there was a UFO, If we
admit that there was something unidentified, we're

837
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:46.239
all going to die and the culture
is going to end. It's ridiculous.

838
01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:52.000
Yeah, I think you mentioned we've
touched on false certainties, which you talk

839
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:55.159
about in the book on both ends
such as mcgahey and it's false certainty that

840
01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:02.079
there wasn't anything there. I was
just radar without you know, looking fully

841
01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:06.480
at the evidence. And on the
other side, we've talked about believers and

842
01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:10.800
how sometimes people will have these false
certainties that there's something going on where there

843
01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:15.360
isn't something going on, and this
aspect of false certainties, you talk about

844
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:21.519
how that's dangerous and especially when people
take it to these extremes. And I

845
01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:24.400
think, yeah, like you said, it is one of those unfortunate aspects.

846
01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:30.480
But it's kind of the middle ground
is not as interesting, doesn't seem.

847
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:34.440
And I could see that where the
media would want to pick up on.

848
01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.119
It's not as interesting to cover some
guy who says, I don't know.

849
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:40.920
It's more interesting to cover some guy
who says, damn it, this

850
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:45.000
is it. You know what though
I and I hear you, and I

851
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:50.039
understand where you're coming from. I
really do. But I think if people

852
01:03:50.159 --> 01:03:52.960
thought about it for a beat,
right, if e medias thought about it

853
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:57.239
for a beat, I don't know, is where the fun starts. I

854
01:03:57.360 --> 01:04:00.719
agree, because that's where I am. Yeah, there's there, and who

855
01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:04.920
doesn't want to solve a mystery.
I mean, here's my thing. I

856
01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:11.280
don't think that people like uncertainty in
general. And look, I'm a person

857
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:15.920
I don't like uncertainty. But I
tried to get comfortable with it as I

858
01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:18.239
kept running into it again and again, and I found that, you know

859
01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:21.239
that the more I ran into it, the easier it got to sort of

860
01:04:21.519 --> 01:04:28.880
tolerate. So so people see UFO, right, and they see unidentified there,

861
01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:32.440
and I think they the instinct is
to force a conclusion on that mystery.

862
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:39.159
Well, you know, it was
weather balloon or the military three weeks

863
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:42.559
later, so they were dropping flares, so that must be what they saw.

864
01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:45.719
And on the other end, it's
well, you know, I guess

865
01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:48.760
it was. It was et And
of course the worst thing you run into

866
01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:53.559
on the on the real hardcore us
on and as the people who know it

867
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:57.320
had to be like some people from
Niberu, you know, who were actually

868
01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:02.880
in that craft. And and so
they force a false conclusion on what remains

869
01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:08.920
a mystery. And I just I
think that, you know, in that

870
01:05:09.199 --> 01:05:13.639
space where something's unidentified, one of
the things we can do, like one

871
01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:17.639
rational response is to just enjoy the
story. Yeah, I mean, it's

872
01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:25.199
a fantastic story what happened in Stephenville, and the fact that there isn't a

873
01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:29.360
firm conclusion on it yet it might
make it hard, I guess, to

874
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:31.320
shoot the feature film in some respects, but I think it could be all

875
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:35.440
the more poignant for that. Yeah, the feature film that'll come up with

876
01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:41.079
a conclusion. I would assume that
they would, although I think that,

877
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:46.119
you know, not knowing what it
was, the people in Stephenville, to

878
01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:50.840
my mind, have been finding their
own conclusions. And I don't necessarily mean

879
01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:55.079
that they've been they've been then,
you know, forced to one of these

880
01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:00.719
false certainties. I think that they've
largely as a town, been working on

881
01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:04.119
making peace with the fact that this
weird thing happened and no one's sure what

882
01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:09.280
it was. And yah, yeah, oh, I was just gonna say,

883
01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:12.599
I like, you know, it's
something that I repeat over and over

884
01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:16.000
on this show and the most the
people I respect the most who I bring

885
01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:20.079
on the show, or those who
are willing to admit they don't know.

886
01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:25.639
Typically when you go to a lecture
or you start a book on the paranormal

887
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:29.960
where they say I've got it all
figured out, it's most likely not going

888
01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:34.960
to be a very good book or
a lecture. But when they say I

889
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:39.679
don't know, it's usually like,
well, that's where you're going to learn

890
01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:43.320
the most. And these people say, and the people who have been researching

891
01:06:43.360 --> 01:06:47.280
the most, and especially scientific minded
or often say they don't know. I

892
01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:51.800
gotta I gotta share this with you. I've done like something like twenty interviews

893
01:06:51.840 --> 01:07:01.000
now, and it's been really fascinating
to me how some people get so disappointed,

894
01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:05.199
Like when I you know, there's
probably about six interviews, six of

895
01:07:05.199 --> 01:07:08.599
the twenty five or six of them
somewhere in there, because it's not like

896
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:12.719
I've been keeping this as a statistic, but I feel like once, you

897
01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:15.559
know, every five or six interviews
I do, when I just say,

898
01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:17.920
well, you know, I don't
really know what it was, there's this

899
01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:21.320
kind of gasp on the other end. And I think it's because they're used

900
01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:25.400
to people if they wrote a book
about it. It's because you know,

901
01:07:25.440 --> 01:07:29.239
they're claiming to have found the conclusion. But I mean, that's just total

902
01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:32.000
bs. I mean, and you
know, they may have found here's the

903
01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:38.639
thing. They may have found a
plausible or semi plausible conclusion, and like

904
01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:42.039
the skeptics will put something forward and
say well, this is you know,

905
01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:45.880
more likely statistically or whatever, since
we know that weather balloons exist and we

906
01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:50.719
don't know that alien spacecraft exists.
Well, I'll even concede that a prosaic

907
01:07:50.760 --> 01:07:55.800
explanation is quote more likely, But
it doesn't mean it was the explanation,

908
01:07:56.039 --> 01:08:00.679
and it doesn't mean it was it's
now explained unless you really have an data

909
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:04.119
to demonstrate that this was what it
was. Was there a weather balloon in

910
01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:09.800
the area, pal, you know, If not, then you've just got

911
01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:15.680
an idea. I've got a thought. Congratulations, I've got something do it's

912
01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:19.319
still a UFO and and you know, and I think that what it is

913
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:23.479
from the skeptical point of view,
I mean I think that in that because

914
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:26.319
of an unidentified space people can leap
in and then say, well, it

915
01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:29.880
must have been alien. They feel
like they've got to guard against that,

916
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:36.399
and I think they undermine their own
cause drastically because they start to seem irrational,

917
01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:42.800
like they're they're so committed to explaining
it away that it's like a religion.

918
01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:51.039
Yeah yeah, And when I have
found that there are especially with the

919
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:59.520
conventional media, when you tell them
I don't know, they respect you as

920
01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:03.800
an end instigator researcher of the paranormal
more because they can see that okay,

921
01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:09.079
it's someone who's interested in looking into
it, but they're not going to give

922
01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:13.880
us some really zany kind of answer. And I've gotten some good responses that

923
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.479
way, and I think luckily I've
been able to create some research or some

924
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:21.680
relationships with some people that way.
I think from you know, and I

925
01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:27.479
think in your context right as the
guy who and forgive me, I can't

926
01:09:27.479 --> 01:09:30.520
remember now, I think you moved
on from Mofon, right, yeah,

927
01:09:30.760 --> 01:09:34.399
yeah, because when I met you
and you were with Moufon. In your

928
01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:38.840
context is a guy who's running a
podcast on UFOs. I mean, I

929
01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:45.359
think people would expect you to be
this kind of pie eyed believer, and

930
01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:49.399
when you're willing to say I don't
know, it does give you tremendous credibility.

931
01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:54.520
Now, on the other hand,
for me as an author, when

932
01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:57.640
I say I don't know, there's
this sense of like, well, what's

933
01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:02.640
your book about then, because usually
people write books claiming they've got the answer.

934
01:10:02.680 --> 01:10:06.239
And in my point in this is
that you know, I don't know

935
01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:11.840
is often where we're at, and
then we plaster it over with a bunch

936
01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:15.920
of garbage, right like with our
own beliefs. And that's a lot of

937
01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:17.039
what I'm trying to get at in
the book. I mean, you know,

938
01:10:17.159 --> 01:10:20.319
even with the Old Family ghost story, I'm not saying ghosts exist,

939
01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:24.520
ors that they don't. I'm saying
that, you know, we can't go

940
01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:29.720
back at a time capsule and gather
enough data from those days to determine what

941
01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:32.880
was really going on in my house
in nineteen seventy five. We are left

942
01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:40.760
in uncertainty, and people can create
whatever kind of you know, narrative they'd

943
01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:45.319
like to explain what it was,
and I guess if that helps them get

944
01:10:45.319 --> 01:10:47.319
through the night, like have a
nice night sleep, you know, But

945
01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:51.840
the fact is it's it's still unexplained. Doesn't mean it was a ghost,

946
01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:57.039
doesn't mean it wasn't. And I
just think that's that's how the paranormal lines

947
01:10:57.079 --> 01:11:00.319
up a lot of the time.
And we're dealing with eyewitness report wors.

948
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:08.600
We're dealing with a subjective assessment of
what was what these people saw see and

949
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:13.760
I love that. I think that
may be one of the most helpful contribution

950
01:11:13.880 --> 01:11:18.319
to society that paranormal research can have, is to get people to a place

951
01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:23.600
where they're comfortable to say I don't
know, because I don't know. Is

952
01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:29.880
opens up great possibilities. Anything's possible. And then more than that, it

953
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:33.560
keeps people from diluting themselves and coming
up with these, like you said that,

954
01:11:33.960 --> 01:11:41.119
the false certainties that are just as
irrational on either side. And I

955
01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:43.760
don't know if you'll agree with this
or not. You know, I'm not

956
01:11:43.800 --> 01:11:45.199
clear on how much of the book
you've read. And you know, there's

957
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:48.720
always the possibility that I fail,
right, But my idea in writing the

958
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:54.840
book was to write a book,
and this look just developed over time too,

959
01:11:54.880 --> 01:12:00.920
as I did the research to write
a book that has ghosts and UFOs

960
01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:04.680
and mental telepathy and spoon bending and
all these things in it, right,

961
01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:10.800
But it's not necessarily about those things, or at least it's not only about

962
01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:12.520
those things. I mean, at
the end of the day, I think

963
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.399
this is a book about us,
you know, this is a book about

964
01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:19.479
what it means to be human.
And I think we have brains built to

965
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:25.720
bring us to a conclusion. You
know, when we don't know what something

966
01:12:26.199 --> 01:12:29.520
is, or we don't know what
to make of information, we get a

967
01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:32.720
lot of anxiety messages within our own
brains, and it's like it's that sort

968
01:12:32.760 --> 01:12:36.800
of danger Will Robinson moment from Lost
in Space, you know, with a

969
01:12:36.920 --> 01:12:42.399
robot alert going on up there.
Yeah, you know that we got to

970
01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:47.000
figure this out, and so people
will immediately move toward a territory that's more

971
01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:51.800
safe, where they have some definition
that's part of humanity. And so I

972
01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:57.199
agree with you fully when you say
that the paranormal is this sort of great

973
01:12:57.279 --> 01:13:01.039
jumping off point for people to understand
there are we don't have all the answers,

974
01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:05.560
and that you know, in that
space there's there's a real freedom to

975
01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:10.600
create and think and hypothesize what might
be there. And I also think there's

976
01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:14.079
a great space to get together.
You know, like if we could get

977
01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:16.279
Joe Nichol to admit that there's something
he can't explain, you know what I

978
01:13:16.319 --> 01:13:20.439
mean, or mcgahey, and then
have them sit down with Stanton Freeman.

979
01:13:21.079 --> 01:13:24.880
They may have a story. I'd
love to you know, be able to

980
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:28.279
talk to them mcgahey and unravel this
story where he was, you know,

981
01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:31.920
last week in his closet crying because
he thought a monster was in his house.

982
01:13:33.039 --> 01:13:39.000
You know what. You may have
his own story that would be awesome.

983
01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:42.239
Yeah, but you know what we
should write one. I love that

984
01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:46.159
idea, but you know, like, to me, that space of uncertainty

985
01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:49.880
or mystery really is a place where
people can get together, you know,

986
01:13:50.079 --> 01:13:54.920
and maybe let their guards sound a
little bit and understand that we are in

987
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:58.840
this together. Yeah. Yeah,
I love that, and I love that

988
01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:02.640
you covered all the different aspects because
I think it's another funny quirk that there

989
01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:08.199
are probably people listening to this show
right now who are UFO? People are

990
01:14:08.199 --> 01:14:11.199
thinking, oh, man, ghosts, that's just a bunch of who and

991
01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:15.760
you know, just disclosed minded about
other paranormal phenomena than the one that they

992
01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:20.560
subscribe to. And I've certainly ran
across that, which is another strange dynamic

993
01:14:20.600 --> 01:14:25.159
that I find because, as you
mentioned in your book, you know,

994
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:30.760
there's still when especially when you're asking
people, well, religion's kind of the

995
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:33.720
same thing, when you're asking people
to accept that I can't prove something,

996
01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:39.159
but I believe it, and I
ask you to respect my belief, but

997
01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:42.279
you're not willing to do the same
for others. You know. One of

998
01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:45.199
the things I've come across, because
you know, in giving and doing sort

999
01:14:45.239 --> 01:14:46.920
of public appearances to promote the book, and that's sort of thing. I

1000
01:14:47.000 --> 01:14:50.760
mentioned those statistics that I mentioned earlier
about twenty percent of seeing in UFO and

1001
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:55.439
twenty percent of ghost and I've run
into a lot of people later on and

1002
01:14:55.520 --> 01:14:58.520
say, well, but aren't they
the same twenty percent, like very dismissively

1003
01:14:58.520 --> 01:15:00.359
because they don't believe in either of
them, and they're not. They're not

1004
01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:03.119
not any percent at all. And
I actually I don't have the numbers in

1005
01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:05.039
front of me. I've been meaning
to go back and look them up,

1006
01:15:05.079 --> 01:15:09.159
but like out of the Baylor Religion
survey, for instance, they're not the

1007
01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:14.199
same twenty percent in the least,
and you know, and that and that

1008
01:15:14.319 --> 01:15:18.159
really starts to widen the pool of
people who would claim definitely some sort of

1009
01:15:18.199 --> 01:15:21.880
paranormal experience. That's what I was
thinking of when you were going over those

1010
01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:28.159
stats, because I actually do.
I've have for years held a lecture series

1011
01:15:28.239 --> 01:15:31.640
on different aspects of the paranormal.
I've gone on plenty of ghost hunts and

1012
01:15:32.039 --> 01:15:36.079
even a big foot hunt here and
there, and I've gotten im botherss all

1013
01:15:36.119 --> 01:15:41.119
of it, just to kind of
just look and discover and see what people

1014
01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:46.279
are saying, because I think these
things are sociologically interesting yep. And unless

1015
01:15:46.279 --> 01:15:50.600
you can definitely disprove something, you
know, I think it's wise to keep

1016
01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:55.840
an open mind to it, because
what if there's something there? Yeah,

1017
01:15:56.079 --> 01:16:00.199
you know, it's funny you bring
the Bigfoot one up. I was going

1018
01:16:00.239 --> 01:16:02.720
to write a chapter on Bigfoot,
and I decided not to. And one

1019
01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:06.600
of the things I was going to
explore is the idea that you know,

1020
01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:13.920
among the most responsible sorts of researchers
and I have no opinion on Bigfoot,

1021
01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:15.760
but I thought it was a good
way to sort of analyze the sorts of

1022
01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:19.520
things we're talking about. When you
listen to like the Lauren Coleman's of the

1023
01:16:19.560 --> 01:16:26.359
World, they're not describing a paranormal
creature, you know, they're not describing

1024
01:16:26.479 --> 01:16:29.840
something that exists outside the realm of
science. I mean, is it really

1025
01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:32.239
outside the realm of science to discover
an unknown animal? Heck? No,

1026
01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:36.680
do it every year, you know. Now this one would be particularly unusual.

1027
01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:42.279
But when you filter through some of
the more odd aspects of the reports,

1028
01:16:42.279 --> 01:16:45.600
which are actually fairly rare, I
mean, usually people are talking about

1029
01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:50.359
I mean, just from the little
cursory reading I did to consider using it

1030
01:16:50.399 --> 01:16:56.000
as a chapter. You know,
they're usually describing what sounds like an animal,

1031
01:16:56.560 --> 01:17:00.640
you know, and so I don't
get it, and like, I

1032
01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:04.640
just don't get it. Where there
there becomes this sense erected that somehow,

1033
01:17:05.239 --> 01:17:10.199
if someone's interested in going out and
looking for bigfoot over the weekend, that

1034
01:17:10.239 --> 01:17:15.960
they're they're they're deficient in some way. I mean, it's simply not the

1035
01:17:15.039 --> 01:17:23.800
case. Yeah, and oh man, I had a good point foria,

1036
01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:30.079
but I lost it. You can
add that aspect. Yeah, but you're

1037
01:17:30.239 --> 01:17:35.720
I you know, there's there's cryptozoological
especially is along those lines. But yeah,

1038
01:17:35.720 --> 01:17:39.880
it keeps coming back to like you
mentioned, and I just love the

1039
01:17:40.159 --> 01:17:45.000
uh, the whole phrase of false
certainties because you find a lot of that

1040
01:17:45.159 --> 01:17:50.439
and where really uh it perplexes me
and some of these skeptics, especially the

1041
01:17:50.520 --> 01:17:57.880
scientific sort, because it's kind of
counters scientific and being an ultimate skeptic because

1042
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:02.520
science has always been found in those
areas and you even get into this where

1043
01:18:02.880 --> 01:18:11.039
people are exploring beyond their comfort realm. You know, you mentioned about how

1044
01:18:11.479 --> 01:18:15.159
a lot of the discoveries people make
are not in the lab, but in

1045
01:18:15.239 --> 01:18:19.279
the shower or driving down the street
right right, And my favorite story,

1046
01:18:19.359 --> 01:18:25.159
like Fenn, is the Hansburger story, and I guess it was during World

1047
01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:30.920
War One and he was a soldier
and he fell off a horse and was

1048
01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:35.840
nearly killed by an artillery sort of
brigade that was behind him, you know,

1049
01:18:35.880 --> 01:18:41.319
a horse drawn artillery carriage, and
the driver managed to bring it to

1050
01:18:41.359 --> 01:18:44.479
a halt, and he but he
had a moment where he thought for sure

1051
01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:47.920
he was about to die. And
when he got back to the barracks or

1052
01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:55.600
whatever, there was a telegram and
his sister had been worried that he was

1053
01:18:55.640 --> 01:19:00.239
in grave danger. And you know, her fear was from the same time

1054
01:19:00.319 --> 01:19:04.239
as this incident, and he took
it as as not to be a coincidence.

1055
01:19:05.239 --> 01:19:10.560
And so he started off on a
search for what physical mechanism could explain

1056
01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:16.439
this, and settled on electricity and
eventually invented you know, despite the derision

1057
01:19:16.479 --> 01:19:24.159
and howls of protest from scientific colleagues, he eventually invented the EEG and found

1058
01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:29.359
there is electrical activity in the brain. I mean, you know, people,

1059
01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:32.760
the world is like worth exploring.
You know, let's let's do it

1060
01:19:32.880 --> 01:19:35.840
and do it with an open mind, and who knows what we'll find.

1061
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:40.760
I mean, I I just think
that's a fabulous story because the EGE just

1062
01:19:40.760 --> 01:19:45.439
became sort of the foundation of modern
neuroscience. Mm hmm. Yeah. So

1063
01:19:45.479 --> 01:19:49.600
if you have people complaining about what
you're doing, it probably you're headed in

1064
01:19:49.720 --> 01:19:54.359
that right. Well see, and
that's right, that's it's an interesting point.

1065
01:19:54.359 --> 01:19:57.039
And I know you're overstating it to
make the point, right. I

1066
01:19:57.079 --> 01:20:00.720
mean, sometimes people are complaining and
they're they're really as bad science going on.

1067
01:20:00.840 --> 01:20:08.720
But it's also true that you know, very very possibly the best discoveries

1068
01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:12.640
that we'll be looking at twenty years
from now will be things that a handful

1069
01:20:12.680 --> 01:20:14.880
of people were saying, hey guys, look at this, Hey guys,

1070
01:20:14.920 --> 01:20:19.600
look at this right right now.
And that's a part of the history of

1071
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:26.720
science. And so whenever people sort
of guard the current store of knowledge rather

1072
01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:30.680
than guarding the method, you know, like the scientific method, mayantenna go

1073
01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:36.159
up because science isn't its current base
of knowledge. Science is its method,

1074
01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:41.560
and the base of knowledge is always
changing, you know, because we're always

1075
01:20:41.640 --> 01:20:45.520
learning more. Right now, I
want to get back before because we're starting

1076
01:20:45.520 --> 01:20:48.000
to run out of time. One
question was when it came to UFOs,

1077
01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:53.760
because you did you know, how
you had those ghost stories that in your

1078
01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:58.720
family, and so you were open
to that particular subject. How did you

1079
01:20:58.840 --> 01:21:01.880
feel about the UFO? And I'm
a prior to investigating it for the book

1080
01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:11.840
interested, right, and I had
read books already over the years, so

1081
01:21:12.000 --> 01:21:15.119
here and there. But I have
to admit, you know, it's not

1082
01:21:15.159 --> 01:21:18.079
like it was a passion. So
it was a really enjoyable chapter in to

1083
01:21:18.119 --> 01:21:25.039
do in that way because I was
I was able to enter into it really

1084
01:21:25.159 --> 01:21:30.119
fresh, and I had a very
open mind on the topic because look,

1085
01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:33.359
I'm still waiting for a smoking gun, you know. But at the same

1086
01:21:33.439 --> 01:21:40.680
time, aren't we all. I
love the way your voice fell there.

1087
01:21:42.319 --> 01:21:45.239
But at the same time, I
think a lot of the arguments that come

1088
01:21:45.319 --> 01:21:48.600
up against this sort of you know, interstellar travel are just funny, you

1089
01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:51.560
know, because they're based on what
we know about the world right now,

1090
01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:57.000
and we're they're based on the technology
we can conceive of right now, and

1091
01:21:57.039 --> 01:21:59.520
that is on its very face.
Now, Look, I understand that those

1092
01:21:59.560 --> 01:22:04.439
things are important, but they're not
authoritative. They don't close the discussion because

1093
01:22:05.399 --> 01:22:08.840
you know, in the last hundred
years, I write about Edgard Mitchell in

1094
01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:12.199
the book. In one hundred years, his family went from traveling west and

1095
01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:15.800
covered wagons to putting him on the
moon, right, so what we accomplish

1096
01:22:15.840 --> 01:22:19.720
in the next hundred years, for
the next five hundred years, It is

1097
01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:25.399
laughable to me when people just sort
of snort derisively and wave their hand and

1098
01:22:25.439 --> 01:22:29.960
say, well, that sort of
thing isn't possible. It's just a non

1099
01:22:30.039 --> 01:22:32.119
starter from the people who have done
that in the past when it comes to

1100
01:22:32.279 --> 01:22:36.760
fight or quart crafting the ocean or
anything that they they're the fools, the

1101
01:22:36.840 --> 01:22:42.640
skeptics when it came to sure,
you know what another comment that you made,

1102
01:22:42.640 --> 01:22:46.880
which I thought was great. Then
It's something that I've said before too,

1103
01:22:46.960 --> 01:22:49.199
is when people ask, well,
why would they do that? Why

1104
01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:55.399
would they go to you know,
the middle of nowhere in Texas and like

1105
01:22:55.479 --> 01:23:00.039
you similar to what you're saying now, you know there, if they exist,

1106
01:23:00.119 --> 01:23:04.039
if there are aliens, they'd be
alien by definition. We wouldn't have

1107
01:23:04.199 --> 01:23:09.439
no idea. And I often when
people ask about motives, say, I

1108
01:23:09.479 --> 01:23:14.600
have we have There's no way we
can have any idea behind motive of why

1109
01:23:15.079 --> 01:23:16.920
someone might be doing something. All
we can do is follow the data.

1110
01:23:17.439 --> 01:23:19.840
The data you know, I have
to tell you. And then also reflects

1111
01:23:19.920 --> 01:23:26.119
such a cultural bias, particularly where
a place plank Stephensville is concerned because you'll

1112
01:23:26.199 --> 01:23:28.439
you'll hear people say, well,
why would they go to a countdown,

1113
01:23:29.520 --> 01:23:33.319
you know, as if aliens are
going to be interested in the met you

1114
01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:38.359
know what I mean, like more
naturally. I mean, it just it's

1115
01:23:38.399 --> 01:23:43.640
another claim that just sort of it's
just laughable on its face. I had

1116
01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:46.479
a great time in Stephenville for that
matter. Let me point that out.

1117
01:23:46.520 --> 01:23:49.199
I live in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
I love it here. It's a big,

1118
01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:53.600
big city, you know, I
love it here. Maybe they went

1119
01:23:53.600 --> 01:23:56.079
there because they thought it would be
a great time, you know what I

1120
01:23:56.079 --> 01:24:01.960
mean, I'd have no clue.
Yeah, until we can act, right,

1121
01:24:02.079 --> 01:24:05.920
until we can converse with them,
you know who it would say,

1122
01:24:06.039 --> 01:24:10.880
Yeah, I'll tell you what the
Heart eight Barbecue would be worth coming in

1123
01:24:10.920 --> 01:24:13.800
for. By the way, a
funny story there, Alejandro. I went

1124
01:24:13.840 --> 01:24:16.239
into this place called the Heart eight
Barbecue in Stephenville because I mean, I

1125
01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:19.199
wanted to you know, while I
was there, I wanted to enjoy Texas

1126
01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:23.800
and Texas culture need some good barbecue. And I go in there and the

1127
01:24:23.840 --> 01:24:27.520
song A Third Rock from the Sun
was playing. Oh that is funny.

1128
01:24:27.800 --> 01:24:30.079
That is absolutely awesome. I just
burst out laughing. It was terrific.

1129
01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:33.840
I know Angela would enjoy that too. Yeah, it was absolutely terrific.

1130
01:24:33.880 --> 01:24:35.840
I had a great time with her
as well. I mean, she was

1131
01:24:35.880 --> 01:24:42.159
a good interview. And you know, the people of Stephenville, and I

1132
01:24:42.159 --> 01:24:43.800
don't know how he's about this,
and I know you need to wrap it

1133
01:24:43.840 --> 01:24:46.359
up, but I just say this, the people of Stephenville, I think,

1134
01:24:46.439 --> 01:24:50.479
also provide a kind of lesson for
the rest of us in terms of

1135
01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:54.640
how to handle this because you're taught, you know, and by this I

1136
01:24:54.680 --> 01:24:58.880
mean the paranormal, because you're talking
out a town of seventeen thousand people where

1137
01:24:58.920 --> 01:25:01.680
they all know each other and feelings
can run awfully hot, you know,

1138
01:25:02.479 --> 01:25:08.680
and they're finding a way to coexist
and continue on with life as they knew

1139
01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:12.760
it in spite of the fact that
this very strange thing happened in town.

1140
01:25:12.800 --> 01:25:15.560
And by the very strange thing,
I would include, you know, the

1141
01:25:15.640 --> 01:25:18.880
media hitting them like crazy, you
know, and becoming a media center where

1142
01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:23.319
they never thought that that would ever
happen to them. And the decision the

1143
01:25:23.359 --> 01:25:26.199
town had to face as to whether
or not to embrace an identity is kind

1144
01:25:26.199 --> 01:25:30.239
of like a UFO mecha or not, and the tension that developed between the

1145
01:25:30.279 --> 01:25:32.720
people who were embarrassed by the fact
that the UFO was seen there and the

1146
01:25:32.760 --> 01:25:38.640
people who simply want to know what
the UFO was. They've gotten along in

1147
01:25:38.680 --> 01:25:43.000
spite of all that, and they
were so careful and so kind and so

1148
01:25:43.239 --> 01:25:46.159
caring when they talked about people on
the other side of the fence. You

1149
01:25:46.199 --> 01:25:50.720
know, after spending months and months
and months mired in the literature going back

1150
01:25:50.720 --> 01:25:56.760
and forth between skeptics and believers,
it was so refreshing to see real people

1151
01:25:57.079 --> 01:26:00.680
focused on caring a little bit about
one another and getting along. Yeah.

1152
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:06.760
I love that part in your book
because it's always we shouldn't have to avoid

1153
01:26:06.840 --> 01:26:13.039
talking about religion and politics or paranormal
you know, we should be able to

1154
01:26:13.079 --> 01:26:17.039
be civil with each other and respectful
with each other talking about differing opinions.

1155
01:26:17.039 --> 01:26:20.199
And it's unfortunate that it's almost a
rule of them that you don't go there

1156
01:26:20.199 --> 01:26:26.039
because you know and decidedly we don't
know how to be civil talking about those

1157
01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:30.640
subjects. Well, you know what, I loved the chapter of the book

1158
01:26:30.680 --> 01:26:34.199
on Stephenville. I think you got
the bigger story there with not just how

1159
01:26:34.239 --> 01:26:42.760
people reacted and treated each other,
but how the media handled it, what

1160
01:26:42.800 --> 01:26:45.840
these people were like. I think
that you were able in one chapter to

1161
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:51.520
encapsulate the Stephenville situation on a bigger
scale and how it relates to all of

1162
01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:57.920
us, more so than anything I've
read on Stephenville or really on UFOs.

1163
01:26:58.399 --> 01:27:01.960
Oh, thank you very much.
It was awesome. I haven't finished a

1164
01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:06.039
whole book, and I'm so excited
to finish the book because i just really

1165
01:27:06.199 --> 01:27:12.520
love the perspective, not just the
openness, but just the frankness and really

1166
01:27:12.560 --> 01:27:16.640
grounded down to earthness of the book. So I'm very excited about it.

1167
01:27:16.680 --> 01:27:19.680
Thank you so much for writing it. Well, you know what, man,

1168
01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:23.479
thanks for all those kind words,
and thanks for having me. And

1169
01:27:23.640 --> 01:27:26.760
you know, i'd listened to this
show many times as part of my research,

1170
01:27:27.399 --> 01:27:30.000
and uh, you know, it's
it's a kick to be on here

1171
01:27:30.039 --> 01:27:33.960
now myself cool. Yeah, Well
we'll have you on again because I feel

1172
01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:38.119
like I just scratched the surface of
some of the stuff I wanted to talk

1173
01:27:38.119 --> 01:27:42.039
about with you. So it was
a lot of fun. Okay, thanks

1174
01:27:42.119 --> 01:27:47.439
on, all right, thank you, all right, Steve. Book ladies

1175
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:54.479
and gentlemen, so really neat guy. You know, a very thoughtful person.

1176
01:27:55.840 --> 01:27:59.520
He's put a lot of thought into
this, and the book shows that.

1177
01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:03.880
I think he brings a fresh new
perspective to this whole thing. And

1178
01:28:03.920 --> 01:28:08.760
that's why I really enjoyed the Stevenville
thing. I mean, it reminded me,

1179
01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:14.199
of course, of what went down
when all of that happened, but

1180
01:28:14.960 --> 01:28:18.720
he was able to touch on aspects
that others hadn't touched on, and some

1181
01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:27.079
of the importance of that case that
others haven't gotten onto either. So I'm

1182
01:28:27.159 --> 01:28:30.800
very excited about his book. I
love the UFBO chapter. I've lost some

1183
01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:33.039
of the other stuff, and I
can't wait to finish it. It's a

1184
01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:36.319
great read, so I didn't want
to put it down, but I had

1185
01:28:36.359 --> 01:28:40.680
to because I had to go back
to work and I had to do the

1186
01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:45.159
interview and stuff, or else i'd
be reading it. Probably right now,

1187
01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:49.319
people, we are out of time, My fine friends, thank you for

1188
01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:56.560
listening to Open Minds Radio. Don't
forget to visit Openminds dot tv for more

1189
01:28:56.920 --> 01:29:02.640
UFO news. Next week we'll be
on the air and we will have mystery

1190
01:29:02.880 --> 01:29:06.760
guest X. Why is it a
mystery? Because I'm not quite sure,

1191
01:29:06.800 --> 01:29:10.680
to be honest, who we're gonna
have on X, but it's gonna be

1192
01:29:10.720 --> 01:29:14.119
somewhat exciting. I have a lot
of ideas and a lot of people I

1193
01:29:14.159 --> 01:29:16.800
want to bring on. I was
holding out for some Moufon guests to hear

1194
01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:21.880
back because I'm helping them with their
symposium, so possibly a Moufon lecturer.

1195
01:29:21.920 --> 01:29:27.680
But if I don't hear from a
Moufon lecture by tomorrow, I'm gonna go

1196
01:29:27.680 --> 01:29:31.560
ahead with some of the other really
cool guests that I have been holding on

1197
01:29:31.600 --> 01:29:35.000
to. It's gonna be a great
show next week either way. People,

1198
01:29:35.399 --> 01:30:04.479
thanks for joining us, and we
will talk to you then. T T

1199
01:30:05.319 --> 01:31:11.119
T to tr tr tr t t
y