1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,879 Hello, and welcome to Freed Indeed Live. I'm your host, Kevin Jay 2 00:00:06,879 --> 00:00:10,759 Anne Hughes, and I'm joined today by the man, the myth, and 3 00:00:10,919 --> 00:00:16,760 the legend, the one who made apologetics funny and made comedy into an apologetic, 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,719 Jay Dyer himself. Jay, how are you doing today? I'm doing 5 00:00:21,719 --> 00:00:24,359 great. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I like the introduction there, 6 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:31,839 that's kind of funny. Yeah, so I wanted to just for my viewers 7 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:35,119 in case you don't know who Jay dar ist. He has a really popular 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:41,640 YouTube channel. He does Orthodox apologetics. And Jay, you were a Roman 9 00:00:41,679 --> 00:00:47,200 Catholic for ten years and a Protestant for a number of years, and then 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,240 you converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. So just kind of start us out, tell 11 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:58,119 us about that, what made you decide to convert to Orthodoxy, and kind 12 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:02,479 of give us your story. Yeah, so, I mean I was raised 13 00:01:02,479 --> 00:01:07,719 Baptists and a lot of that that time. Growing up, we were not 14 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,120 super serious about church. We kind of had phases where we would go often 15 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:17,359 and then not go. My senior year of high school, I started getting 16 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:19,200 a little more serious about religion. I was reading the Bible all the way 17 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:26,599 through and attending a lot of evangelical Bible study groups and had friends and a 18 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,560 lot of different prostant nominations, and so it was getting more serious. I 19 00:01:30,599 --> 00:01:34,599 wanted to study religion and philosophy at a more academic level, so I went 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,200 to college to study that. We did a little bit of Bible school Bible 21 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:45,159 College, and then switched to Secular University and I'll get really into Reformed theology 22 00:01:45,239 --> 00:01:49,280 Calvinism and did that for many years, and I started to have questions ultimately 23 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:53,079 about the history of the Church and the formation of the Biblical Canon. And 24 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,359 at that time, back in about two thousand and three, there weren't a 25 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:01,400 whole lot of internet resources regarding Orthodoxy. It was primarily just if you looked 26 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:06,159 online you would find a lot of debates between Roman Catholics and Protestants, so 27 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,439 that was about all there was out there. There was maybe a couple of 28 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:14,400 Orthodox blocks, but I didn't know about those at the time. So that 29 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:20,360 really immersed in the Catholic Protestant debate, and eventually kind of just study my 30 00:02:20,439 --> 00:02:23,800 way out of Protestantism as a whole. Read a lot of books on the 31 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,159 formation of the Cannon, read a lot of the Church Fathers, and kind 32 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:31,080 of just took for granted a lot of the papal claims and the papal argumentations, 33 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,319 and I didn't know a lot about papal forgeries or any of that kind 34 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,319 of stuff. So I was kind of, I guess you could say, 35 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,240 duped by some of those things. But I had good intentions. I really 36 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,319 wanted to find the right church and you know, do the right thing. 37 00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:47,919 So I became Roman Catholic in two thousand and three. And when you shift 38 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,439 from Protestant Roman Catholic, there's, I guess you say, a honeymoon phase, 39 00:02:53,479 --> 00:02:55,319 and then you start to realize there's a lot of issues in the Roman 40 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:04,360 Catholic world that arise I think ultimately from questions of history and questions of theology. 41 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:07,199 So it's both of those things at once. And as I've gotten older, 42 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,199 I've more and more come to see that, you know, it's not 43 00:03:09,319 --> 00:03:14,479 just ideology and theology at work. There's a lot of other historical, geopolitical 44 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:20,080 factors as well. So I focus more and more on those things as time 45 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,280 goes by, because I think when you're a young guy, you're very idealistic, 46 00:03:23,319 --> 00:03:29,080 and you interpret things through the lens of the idealism of youth, and 47 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:35,039 you don't understand geopolitical forces and factors and state actors and non state actors that 48 00:03:35,159 --> 00:03:38,960 have a lot to do with the world of religion, and sometimes that's from 49 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,800 the background. So the more I got into the geopolitics of Vatican Two, 50 00:03:42,919 --> 00:03:47,280 the more I got into the what I saw to be really reconcilable issues between 51 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:53,800 the pre Vatican two and post Vatican do papal claims. I was just really 52 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,240 just kind of in an existential crisis for several years as a traditional Roman Catholic 53 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,599 went to the Latin asked for many many years throughout my twenties, and I 54 00:04:03,639 --> 00:04:09,879 finally heard about Orthodoxy, I think from somebody online and some online debates, 55 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:15,439 and I started looking at Antiochian churches around me. This is about two thousand 56 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:19,079 and six, two thousand and seven. But I was still very Tomistic in 57 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:26,600 my thinking and kind of immersed and a lot of Scholastic ideology. So I 58 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,040 was interested in Orthodoxy, but I wasn't really ready to convert yet. It 59 00:04:30,079 --> 00:04:34,120 just didn't make sense to me yet. So I attended an Orthodox church for 60 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:39,639 about a year with my girlfriend at the time, and we were both going 61 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:45,920 to be catechised and married in the church back then, but I wasn't ready 62 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,279 yet, so I kind of called all that off. I wasn't ready to 63 00:04:48,319 --> 00:04:51,800 be married yet either, So at the time it was difficult, but I 64 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,720 think it looking back, it was definitely the right decision, both the not 65 00:04:56,759 --> 00:05:00,920 getting married in and the decision not to convert. Yeah, because you know, 66 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:04,360 one thing that's different about Orthodoxy is that you're not I mean, we 67 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,079 want converse, but we don't. People want people to rush into it. 68 00:05:08,519 --> 00:05:12,000 So I made the mistake of rushing I think a couple of times early on 69 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:16,879 in my youth, not with bad intentions, but just with zeal without knowledge, 70 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,600 I guess, is a good way to put it, like Paul says. 71 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:24,839 So so I held off, and I kind of I kind of didn't 72 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,720 know what to do. For many many years I was I never became atheist 73 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,480 or agnostic, but I was just kind of like, you know, I 74 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,439 don't know if I think Catholicism is true. I definitely not Protestant, not 75 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:39,720 Orthodox yet. And when you when you're looking at orthodox you start to realize, 76 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,720 well, you know, Orthodoxy has its own set of problems. You 77 00:05:43,759 --> 00:05:47,079 know, nowhere it's going to be totally free of problems, But it's really 78 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,360 I think, a question of what are the problems, And if a problem 79 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:58,959 is systemic, meaning that the you know, something like contradictions in the papacy, 80 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,199 to me, that means that the system is not right. So we're 81 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:06,839 all we all have, you know, problems of immorality, immoral clergy and 82 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:14,800 this kind of stuff. But if it's doctrinal and dogmatic contradictions, then we 83 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,279 have another level of problem. And I just never saw that there was any 84 00:06:18,319 --> 00:06:24,519 possibility of that being reconciled within the Roman Catholic setting. It didn't look to 85 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,600 me, like, you know, after Benedict Francis was doing anything but going 86 00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:33,360 even further the Vatican two. So for me, it was just pretty much 87 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:38,959 done with Rome, I think in about twenty and seven eight, and I 88 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,560 just kind of held off, and I didn't really go to any church for 89 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,160 many years. And then about twenty fourteen I started kind of gradually getting back 90 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,079 into reading Church Fathers again. I read a lot of Saint Maximus, and 91 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,439 I got I was like, well, I'm gonna have to read Cappadocians at 92 00:06:51,519 --> 00:06:56,279 length. So I got really deep into reading all the Cappadoceans, and I 93 00:06:56,319 --> 00:06:59,879 had never really done that in my twenties. I'd mainly focused on my twenties 94 00:06:59,879 --> 00:07:02,000 on Latin Church fathers, and I just kind of assumed, like a lot 95 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,000 of Roman Catholics do, oh well, all of that first thousand years is 96 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,000 pretty much subtled. We don't have to worry about that. You know, 97 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:14,199 the debate is just between Roman Catholics and Protestants. But the more that you 98 00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:15,800 get into the church history and the more you get into, you know, 99 00:07:16,439 --> 00:07:21,560 the Eastern perspective on things, you start to realize that, as the Alexandria 100 00:07:21,639 --> 00:07:26,560 Document recently recently admitted, you know, there's a pretty good case for the 101 00:07:26,639 --> 00:07:30,759 Orthodox view. And I think that ultimately I'm saying this is my view back 102 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,000 in twenty between two thousand and eight to twenty fourteen, I just sort of 103 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:38,759 getting more and more into Orthodox stuff, going back to church, going back 104 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:44,480 to the liturgy, and eventually was received in twenty seventeen eighteen somewhere in there. 105 00:07:45,079 --> 00:07:48,480 So you know, to me, you know, in terms of Christianity, 106 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:53,079 I just don't really see any other possibility as to what Christianity could be. 107 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,360 I don't see Protestantism or Rome as contenders at all for Christianity. So 108 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,800 Christianity is true, it's gonna be Orthodoxy in my bee. So, you 109 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,319 know, in the last several years we've been kind of interacting with a lot 110 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:13,399 of Islamic debates, a lot of Protestant debates, a lot of atheist debates, 111 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,879 and some Roman Catholic stuff as well, and there really hasn't been anything 112 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:22,160 since you know, twenty fourteen fifteen that I've heard that has been that has 113 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,560 swayed me in any other direction. So I feel like, you know, 114 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,639 this is I don't I don't know where else one would go. I mean, 115 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,080 I feel like there's such significant, you know, kind of foundational problems 116 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:41,639 in you know, perennialist philosophy and atheist philosophy and Islamic philosophy that there's just 117 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,519 not many other options out there. So unless one wanted to be just full 118 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,120 on agnostic, I mean, you pretty much have Orthodoxy as kind of the 119 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:54,679 world religion that's out there as the faithful expression of the religion that Christ handed 120 00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:00,799 down. Amen. So you mentioned in there a little bit about politics. 121 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:07,159 How did you get into geopolitics because a lot of your best content is political 122 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:11,840 things. Right now, you've been covering a lot of the so called manisphere 123 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,879 topics kind of the red pill movement. You actually have a video called red 124 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:22,480 Pill Pros and Cons. So you've been covering that a lot. What's kind 125 00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:26,360 of gotten you into that political sphere? And you have a really awesome book 126 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:33,399 Esoteric Hollywood kind of walk us through how you got into that whole. Well. 127 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,360 I had multiple interests. So back when I was doing my undergraduate work, 128 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:43,200 I wanted to tie in philosophy and literature, so I was studying. 129 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,799 My university didn't have a film degree, and they didn't have like a like 130 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,000 a major. They might have had a minor, I don't remember, but 131 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,279 they had philosophy and literature for grad school and a lot of film classes, 132 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:00,399 and so I always was interested in theater and film. And when I was 133 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:01,080 a kid, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be a 134 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,639 comedian, So that was kind of my main interest. And then I think 135 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,960 what happens is that the Internet opened up a way for people to really just 136 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,120 sort of be themselves online, and eventually, if you do that long enough, 137 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,360 all of your interests eventually, for me at least for people like myself, 138 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:22,120 maybe that those interests come out. So the entire time I was doing 139 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,200 on undergrad, I had a lot of film classes. I was always interested 140 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:30,000 in movies in Hollywood and the philosophy of symbolism. So I wanted to combine 141 00:10:30,039 --> 00:10:33,759 all these things, and that's what I focused on in grad work was studying 142 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:37,919 propaganda and how Hollywood use propaganda. So that's kind of the basis for where 143 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:43,480 the two books on Hollywood came from. Simultaneously to that, I was also 144 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:48,320 studying geopolitics, and I would distinguish that from American politics or you know, 145 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,799 these political disputes about red pill stuff. I mean, I know there's some 146 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,559 overlap, but what I got into is really a kind of history of empires 147 00:10:56,639 --> 00:11:03,679 and did a history degree as well, so I really found the big geopolitical 148 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:07,279 stuff fascinating because you know, if you read a book like Tragy and Hope, 149 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:09,240 or you know, any of these other big geopolitical tomes, or if 150 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,120 you read Ashral Spangler or any of these people, you start to realize that, 151 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:16,840 you know, history placed into this as well. And again that's what 152 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,080 I'm trying to, I guess convey with you know. The deeper I got 153 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,879 into Vatican two and the issues behind Vatican two is that you realize it's not 154 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:33,279 all about theology. There are powerful interests that are really entwined with Vatican Two, 155 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:39,799 particularly people in the American power structure, Time magazine, people, Jesuits, 156 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:46,200 Cia, these people have a very strong interest in making Roman Catholic Church 157 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:52,000 into a form of soft power. So I realized the more I studied Vatican 158 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,360 two and all that I was going to have to learn about what does that 159 00:11:54,399 --> 00:11:58,480 mean soft power? What is Brazinski talking about when he's talking about using the 160 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,799 Romancolic Church in this way? And you know all these different famous you know, 161 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:07,279 people you hear about like Kissinger and rockefelleror Brazinski, And so I thought, 162 00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:09,960 well, I'm gonna have to go read these guys too. And then 163 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,600 again it was just kind of like I have multiple interests, right, So, 164 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:16,080 I mean, I'm interested in Hollywood, I'm interested in geopolitics, I'm 165 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:22,080 in theology and philosophy. So it wasn't planned. It just kind of all 166 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,120 came out that I wanted to comment on all these topics just because we're in 167 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:31,000 the age now where that's where you can do that. You can kind of 168 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:35,679 be your own talking head commentator. You know, nobody would have ever dreamt 169 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,240 of something like this in the nineties. So here we are, and yeah, 170 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:43,759 just just just kind of it was just the stuff that I'm interested in. 171 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,360 So I started talking to the red pill stuff because I studied a lot 172 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,679 of that a long time ago, when it was first kind of popping on 173 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,320 the scene in twenty ten, or at least that instantiation of it, when 174 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,679 books were coming out like The Mystery Method, and books were coming out like 175 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,679 Neil Strauss's The Game, and people were talking about, you know, learning 176 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:09,320 social dynamics and this kind of stuff, and then that kind of turned into 177 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:15,559 that kind of evolved into other things beyond pickup stuff, more political men's rights 178 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,320 stuff. I wasn't like an activist, but I listened to a lot of 179 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:26,360 those podcasts and debates and discussions ten years ago. So it's just another area 180 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,080 of interest. And so if I've spent a lot of time reading or studying 181 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:31,759 a topic, I like to comment on it. So that's why I did 182 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:35,440 it. And it's a hot topic. Everybody's talking about it, so and 183 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,759 then that you know, led to eventually going on Pearls Show, and so 184 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,159 you know, it's it's kind of out there. I interviewed one of the 185 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,679 Tates a couple of years ago before they got super big. So yeah, 186 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,519 I just happened to kind of be adjacent to a lot of that stuff. 187 00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:50,519 But that's why I talked about it. Now. When it comes to straight 188 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,360 up politics, I'm actually not that interested in it. Like Democrat Republican politics, 189 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,919 I don't really I don't really follow it. But I find that, 190 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,960 you know, the big, the big meta political stuff a lot more interesting. 191 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:05,080 That makes sense. I'm kind of the same way. A friend of 192 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,639 mine just recently posted a meme that was like him in two thousand and eight 193 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:16,679 talking about we need to invade Iraq because they want democracy, and then him 194 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,639 in twenty ten saying they don't care about democracy, and then in twenty twelve 195 00:14:22,679 --> 00:14:26,320 saying, wait, I don't care about democracy, and then kind of going 196 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:33,559 down until now he's orthodox and he's like monarchy is the way, so so, 197 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:37,320 and that resonated with me as well, Like I don't really care about 198 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:43,480 American politics, but like the stuff you cover, the larger political narrative is 199 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,039 very interesting to me. And that's actually kind of how I discovered your show 200 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:50,320 was because I was interested in that. But to be honest with you, 201 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,360 a lot of the people that I would want to listen to. It was 202 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,240 like there was all these kind of weird conspiracy theory type videos that would pop 203 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,360 up, and I'm like, I just can't follow this. But your stuff 204 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:09,720 is all very well grounded and really rooted in academic sources, so that I 205 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,679 don't feel like I'm getting some kind of weird off the wall speculation. Yeah, 206 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,399 I think it's it's okay to speculate. One comment on that real quick. 207 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,840 I don't mean to cut, because we're all gonna, in our thought 208 00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:28,759 process and analysis, have some degree of areas of unknown, and so I 209 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:35,480 think it's fine to have formulate theories because again it's just kind of unavoidable. 210 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:37,720 But what I do try to do, as you say, is lecture from 211 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:41,720 the big geopolitical power lead in their texts. So in that way, I'm 212 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,919 not typically theorizing. If I do have a theory, i'll say it's a 213 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,080 theory, but most of the time I'm just lecturing from those texts, and 214 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,159 so I can, you know, say pretty consistently that it's factual and not 215 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,840 theoretical. But yeah, I do agree with you that one thing you learn 216 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:02,600 as you get deep into this stuff is that there are real conspiracies, but 217 00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:06,039 there's also a lot of disinformation, and it can get really complex, and 218 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,440 sometimes it's very difficult to sift a wheat from the chaff in terms of the 219 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,879 noise of disinformation that's out there. Right. So one thing that another thing 220 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:21,559 you brought up was that you had come out of Tomaism, and I was 221 00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:26,519 wondering could you elaborate more on that, like what kind of influences let you 222 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:33,279 out of Tomaism? How did you come out of that? Because from my 223 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:36,960 perspective, Thomas I actually also came out of Tomasm. I'm a convert from 224 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,000 Catholicism, so I'm really interested to hear kind of what your angle was on 225 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:45,279 that. Well. At first one I heard a lot of the Orthodox critiques 226 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:48,919 of Tomas, and they were kind of weak, and they were built on 227 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:55,120 just kind of flimsy things like oh, we don't do scholasticism, we don't 228 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,559 do logic. And back in two thousand and seven or eight, I found 229 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:03,000 all that very unconsing because I'd read enough of the Church Fathers in the East, 230 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:07,839 like saying John Damascus to know that Welles he uses very scholastic logical, 231 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:11,880 philosophical argumentation and approaches, so it doesn't work to just kind of have this 232 00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:21,599 general broad hand waving approach. But then eventually doctor Bradshaw put out the book 233 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,759 Aerosol East and West, which i'd read as essays prior to the book coming 234 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:27,000 out back in two thousand and seven and eight, and I thought there were 235 00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:32,680 some really powerful critiques of Tomaism, but I wasn't ready to commit to giving 236 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,319 up Tomism yet in two thousand and seven and eight, just on the basis 237 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:40,519 of a few critiques. As I got deeper into studying absolutely one simplicity and 238 00:17:40,599 --> 00:17:45,160 the Roman Calviy perspective, and I basically read, as far as I'm aware, 239 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,880 most of, if not all, of Bradshaw's philosophical theological papers and essays, 240 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,359 and then when Aerosol East and West came out, I read that, 241 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:59,319 and then I read other academic critiques of Tomaism, and so I was finding 242 00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:02,839 the argument a lot more convincing. Then I realized, well, I'm gonna 243 00:18:02,839 --> 00:18:06,799 have to go beyond Thomas. Im I have to go read the Saint Gregor 244 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:11,000 Palamas. So I decided I would have to just start working through the literature. 245 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,799 So I read the Triads, I read Debate Dollar with Barla Might, 246 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,200 got into the hundred fifty chapters, read Apodictic Treatise on the Holy Spirit, 247 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,079 the advanced copy of that, and uh, you know, I was just 248 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,400 finding more and more the argumentation for the essence interdistinction against the Tomistic position to 249 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:37,480 be just irreputable. So that was a kind of a side thing I was 250 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:40,920 doing as I was reading through a lot of same Maximus as a literature back 251 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,240 in twenty fourteen, fifteen sixteen, and yeah, I was just basically, 252 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:52,039 I think by about twenty fifteen sixteen, I was pretty convinced that there wasn't 253 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:56,640 gonna be any Tomistic response because it was committed to this approach. And I 254 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,920 noticed in a lot of the debates of the Thomas they would ignore and I 255 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,920 think this is still the case, the dogmatic pronouncements, because at the end 256 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,119 of the day, in Rome Catholicism, it's not really a matter of oh, 257 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:11,480 I you know, have whatever school you want. Well, the way 258 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:15,640 that system is supposed to work is you're supposed to follow the dogmatic pronouncements first. 259 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,119 I think Bradshaw shows that the fourth Ladder and Council, which is dogmatic 260 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,319 for Rome adopts the Peter Lombard doctrine of simplicity, which is pretty strict. 261 00:19:29,279 --> 00:19:32,640 So if that's the dogma of Rome, I don't see how we can squeeze 262 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,559 in these other later positions like Skodaism and Tomaism, and I mean Tomaism, 263 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:41,960 I guess is more consistent with the Lombard definition of simplicity or identity thesis. 264 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:49,599 So for me, you know, that combined with the dogmatized position that Grace 265 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:53,359 in Roman colly Church is created, I mean it's a created, supernatural accident 266 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:59,000 in the soul. I mean it's clear and a couple of places in Denzinger 267 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:02,119 and it's clear and awe. So that's the traditional position. I think it's 268 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,079 more honest to admit that than trying to, you know, cope and come 269 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,200 up with all these things. And coupled with that, it's just sort of 270 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,880 like Thomas don't ever really respond to the last five hundred years of argumentation, 271 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:21,519 so I don't think in philosophy, so there's a lot of challenges to Thomastic 272 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:27,960 notions of self evidence and first principles epistemic justification that Thomas just never cared to 273 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,599 answer and then just ignore it and then when I read Father stan Eloy's Orthodox 274 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:37,599 Dogmatics Volume one, and like the first chapter is saying, we don't do 275 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,559 natural theology, we have natural revelation. I read that and I think twenty 276 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:45,279 sixteen that sealed the deal for me. I was like, yeah, exactly, 277 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,880 that's that's answering a lot of these dilemmas that I've had for so long, 278 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,680 because that's much more in line with kind of the presuppositional argumentation that I 279 00:20:55,759 --> 00:21:00,000 was reading, ironically as a Calvinist. So I saw the orthdox position as 280 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:08,039 really in many ways harronizing irreconcilable problems in Calvinism and van til and in Tomism 281 00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:12,559 and Roman Catholicism. So you have this Orthodox position that kind of seemed to 282 00:21:12,599 --> 00:21:19,440 have the best of both worlds. Yeah, that's awesome. So what is 283 00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:23,640 it? Just? Kind of first off, for anybody who doesn't know, 284 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:30,559 can you just explain a little bit about what is the essence and energy distinction? 285 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:37,079 And also what is Lombard's view of divine simplicity and why do you say 286 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:41,200 that those things are not compatible with Tomism? Right? So in the Fourth 287 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:47,920 Ladder and councilor when it Sielomber by name, it says that it identifies the 288 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,839 attributes with all identical amongst themselves and with the Divine Essence. And so this 289 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,680 is known as a strict identity thesis, that God's love, wisdom, mercy, 290 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,839 etc. Are all identical to the Divine Essence and even identical amongst themselves 291 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:08,200 when you name them. So the problem with that is that it denies a 292 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,039 real distinction between the attributes, and that would also be a real distinction. 293 00:22:12,079 --> 00:22:15,400 It denies a real distinction between God's essence and his actions. So that means 294 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,119 the action of, for example, creating the world would be then synonymous with 295 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,519 the Divine essence. The Divine essence is necessary, eternal, etc. Unchanging, 296 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,599 Then the action of creating the world is also, by extension eternal, 297 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:32,680 necessary and unchanging. That would make an eternal world, which is precisely the 298 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:38,880 argumentation of Aristotle. Aristotle argument that the world had to have a eternal actualizer. 299 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,240 Now, romancallity theology doesn't admit that, but yet we have so many 300 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:51,039 places where even Romancallic philosophers like doctor Faser, basically in his book Five Proofs, 301 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:55,400 admitting that maybe we should adopt this kind of philosophical augumentation of eternal world. 302 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,359 Well, this is just really surrendering Christianity at this point. So it 303 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,680 amounts to Hellenic philosophy and its principles above divine revelation. It puts Hellenic philosophy 304 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:11,440 and its principles above the councils and their definition, particularly the Cappadocean clear as 305 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:15,759 day teaching of the distinction between the essence and the energy letter two thirty four, 306 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,640 A Basil's very clear. And then you know from that you get Saint 307 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,599 Cyril very clearly demarcating the essence from the energy and pointing out that in the 308 00:23:23,599 --> 00:23:30,599 Eucharist you partake of the deified energized flesh. So the flash of Christ and 309 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,359 the Eucharist is the deified energized flesh, in other words, energized by the 310 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,960 uncreated energy. So Cyril's very clear about that. That's the theology that underlized 311 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,960 Ephesus. This comes up again in the sixth Council with Maximus making the essenceneries 312 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,839 stinction the basis for his crystological diophysicism and dio energism. So Maximus is idea 313 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:56,400 that there's diotealotism and there's two wills two energies to natures is premised on the 314 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,200 essencenergies sanction. If you read the dispute with Purists, that's really clear mc 315 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,559 caathers. We're always just denying this and saying that no, it's not a 316 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,400 real distinction. The whole argumentation and disputation with Purists is based on it being 317 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,240 a real distinction. And John Damascus in book three, section fifteen of un 318 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:17,200 the Orthodox Faith takes all those same arguments from Maximus then just teases them out 319 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:22,319 in Christology. So once you understand that Christology necessitates the essence inery distinction, 320 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:29,160 that's pretty much open and shut case right there. So basically we have to 321 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:36,400 have a reality that distinguishes different real distinction between different actions and attributes and God. 322 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:38,960 God can do different things. So for example, Palamas when he argues 323 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,720 with Barlam, he says, when God rests on the seventh day, it 324 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,759 means you stop the work of creating. And if you have a theology of 325 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:55,200 identity thesis that identifies action with essence, there's really no way to explain God's 326 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,480 ceasing to act or ceasing this act and doing some other thing. This also 327 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:03,960 underlies the denial of the Theophanes. In Roman Catholic metaphysics, they consider that 328 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,640 Theophanes impossible, and so they have to be created holograms or angels. And 329 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:15,079 yet we're told countless times in scripture and in the Patristic tradition that no these 330 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,720 are the angel award really is energetically present in time and space. And if 331 00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:25,160 you realize that the second I mean, if there's not a problem, let 332 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,400 me rephrase it. If it's not possible for the second person that God had 333 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:37,039 to energetically manifest in time and space and the Old Testament because of absolute simplicity, 334 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:41,519 as many Roman caloities argue, then there is no incarnation. You see, 335 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:45,240 this uncuts, it underdoes the whole theology of the incarnation, because the 336 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:49,640 incarnation is the second person of the Godhead entering into a mode of being that 337 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,519 the Father and the Spirit do not. And if God is reducible to and 338 00:25:53,640 --> 00:26:00,480 identical to actus purists, then you can't have actus purists entering into time space 339 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:03,799 in a mode of being that's really incarnate. It's a very simple point. 340 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,720 And yet they will talk infinitely in circles to cope and get around this objection. 341 00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:11,559 But to me, that's open a shut case, as well as the 342 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:18,039 arguments that marleym has with Saint Gregor Palmas, because Palmas says, well, 343 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,759 let's just end this debate with asking about what we participate in. We all 344 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:26,079 agree that we can't participate in the divine essence, So what is it that 345 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:29,119 we're participating in? And if the answer from the Roman calog is that it's 346 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,799 another creature, even if it's a supernatural creature, it's not good enough. 347 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,440 That's the area and argument that you can be saved by a creature. Palma 348 00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:41,960 says, when Christ came John seventeen to give us a share in the glory 349 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,240 that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world, that's a 350 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:51,559 real sharing and eternal glory is not a creature. End of debate. So 351 00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:56,480 do you think that's why the West doesn't have very much talk about theosis? 352 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,960 Yes, in part I mean cal the Catechism mentions it, and they've they've 353 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,000 had this desire to want to revive this Eastern lung of the Church and its 354 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:14,160 ideas. But you know, the whole argument throughout the post Tridentine period was 355 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,480 that the Eastern churches lack and have lost the fullness of the faith and now 356 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:25,319 we have Bishop Baron on videos saying the Papal Church needs to recover the fullness 357 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,480 of the faith by finding the Eastern Fathers and letting the Eastern lung of the 358 00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:33,640 Church breathe. So you'll notice there's been a complete flip in the post Tridentine 359 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:41,680 counter Reformation apologetics and dogmatization versus what we get in the Chi eighty document, 360 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:47,440 in the Alexandria Document now admitting all of the almost of the objections the Orthodox 361 00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:52,759 Church for the last thousand years. So to me, the Alexandria Document is 362 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:57,440 yet yet another nail in the coffin because it's a papally approved theological commission admitting 363 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,200 basically ninety ninety five percent of our arguments and points. So if that's the 364 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,759 case, the Vatican One is false and the Roman Gallic Church's false, right 365 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:14,880 exactly. You You also mentioned about how you saw a lot of the Orthodox 366 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:21,440 apologetics as bringing together kind of the best of both worlds with what you had 367 00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:26,319 experienced in Calvinism and Toomism, and I thought that was really interesting because some 368 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,960 of the other folks that I've interviewed on this show before have talked about how 369 00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:40,319 in their process of converting to Orthodoxy. What they actually found was that Orthodoxy 370 00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:45,799 was the fullness of everything that they loved about whatever they had been before, 371 00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:53,519 especially if it's a Christian, you know, sacked. So, you know, 372 00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:56,240 could you talk a little bit more about that, like, do you 373 00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:02,400 see Orthodoxy as kind of the fullness of you had experienced when you were Reformed 374 00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:07,880 and Roman Catholic and all of that, And if so, kind of what 375 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:14,039 are some ways in which you think Orthodoxy is the fullness of of those other 376 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,119 realities. Yeah, there's a lot of ways you could approach this question. 377 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,279 First I would say is that we have to be very clear and precise that 378 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:29,400 I'm not saying that just because there's a medium medium position that it's necessarily right. 379 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,559 In other words, Centrism can also be wrong. So it's not true 380 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,960 just because it's Centrists. Somebody might misunderstand me as if I'm saying that or 381 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:41,079 oh, because I see this as a position between Rome and Protestantism is therefore 382 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:44,680 true. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the elements in Catholicism 383 00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:48,160 that were correct and the elements within Protestantism are correct. I think as you're 384 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:55,279 pointing out are really the fullness of those things are in Orthodox theology. So 385 00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,359 you know, we could think of things like criticisms of the papacy that the 386 00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:07,240 Reformers had the Orthodox had already had right and yet you know, criticisms that 387 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:12,920 Roman Catholics would have a Protestants in terms of tradition apostolic succession. You know, 388 00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:17,720 Orthodoxy makes those same arguments and has that same critique. So you know, 389 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,240 a lot of a lot of those kinds of things was probably your audience 390 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:23,960 is familiar with, but you can get really nuanced as well and deep into 391 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,200 you know, areas for example, where van Till would critique Tomistic epistemology. 392 00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:33,319 Even though I don't think van Till had the answer, I think he had 393 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:40,880 good critiques, and he would make critiques that echo or are parallel. I 394 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,960 don't think he read Steany Lloyd, but I think Staniloy and van Till both 395 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:49,839 had critiques of Toomaism that overlap. So you know, people can recognize good 396 00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:52,440 and bad arguments. And also we have to be clear to a lot of 397 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,279 people will make this fallacy. They'll say, oh, you're making the argument 398 00:30:56,319 --> 00:31:00,519 that the transant argument for God. That's a Calvinist argument. That's a genetic 399 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:06,680 fallacy. So an argument is true or false irrespective of its source. It 400 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,839 has nothing to do with who made the argument. So it wouldn't matter if 401 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,279 Calvin or Aristotle made the argument. I mean, Calvin doesn't make the transi 402 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440 argument, but it wouldn't matter either way because the argument stands on her own. 403 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,880 It's nothing to do with the source. That's again the genetic fallacy. 404 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,839 Oh, it's wrong because it came from that person and I don't like that 405 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,960 person or whatever. I mean, Aristotle makes arguments about causation and teleology that 406 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,720 pass into tons of people in the Protestant, Roman, Catholic and Orthodox tradition. 407 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:40,160 Are we going to say, oh, well, Aristotle was not a 408 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,279 Christian, so therefore the arguments are all false. That's again, has nothing 409 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:48,240 to do with a true or false So we have to be careful of genetic 410 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:55,440 fallacy. That's a misunderstanding. But yeah, I mean, there's just so 411 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,440 many different ways you could go about kind of addressing this issue. And then 412 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,799 you know one of the big ones, which is related to us since there 413 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,680 distinction as Philly okuway, and you know, I never saw either Roman Catholic 414 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:17,200 or Protestant people really really addressing this sufficiently. The closest thing I could think 415 00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:24,240 of to a sufficient addressing of the question was the Vatican Clarification on the Philly 416 00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:28,599 Oakway, which came out in the nineties or whenever, two thousands, whenever 417 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:34,599 that came out. The Vatican Clarification of the Philly Oquay admits that at one 418 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,839 point, as you get down throughout the document, it admits that there are 419 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:45,759 still tensions between the Father as the soul cause versus the causal power of the 420 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:51,400 Father being somehow shared or committed or transmitted to the Sun. And the document 421 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:58,519 admits that that's kind of a irreconcilable difference between the Council of Lions and Florence 422 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,480 and the Orthodox, traditional Palamite and Photian approach. So, you know, 423 00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:09,799 if Protestantism in Rome never sufficiently address that, and if I see that, 424 00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:15,599 for example, you know Constantinople one is really adopting pretty clearly the Cappadocean model 425 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,960 the Trinity, which is a soul source, the fathers the soul source. 426 00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:25,759 To me, that's again another kind of open and shut case where neither Protests 427 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:31,240 nor Orthodoxy has really sufficiently dealt with or can dealt deal with or answer this. 428 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,799 And I would say for people who really want to go deeper into that, 429 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,599 just watch the lectures from doctor bau Branson on that topic. Awesome. 430 00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:45,160 I think other things too you could mention as well, like the geopolitical power 431 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,559 of the papacy. You know, the Protestants critique that for a long time. 432 00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:53,400 That's actually against the cannons. You know, the ancient cannons, the 433 00:33:53,440 --> 00:34:02,640 first seven Councils don't allow for the bishopric to become a giant state power. 434 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,960 And yet that's what we have with the papal states. And you know, 435 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,000 I'm well aware of all the Roman Catholic attempts to justify that, but it 436 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,079 completely goes against the canons. So you know, that's a thing that you 437 00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:21,239 would hear luther or different Protestants perhaps bringing up. But that doesn't make Lutheranism 438 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,199 and Protestantism true. So again, you know, just I would just constantly 439 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:29,119 be finding, you know, kind of a midway between these positions. Think 440 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:35,320 about works of super irrigation, you know, super superabundant, great works of 441 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,840 us merits and all this kind of stuff indulgences that we have in the medieval 442 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,760 Latin tradition, you know, Protestants of critiquing that, and that's a great 443 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,800 critique because we don't find that in the first thousand years of Christianity. But 444 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,199 that doesn't mean that I'm gonna jump over into Luther's you know, sola fide 445 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:57,280 so, because that's also not patristic. So if I if I find it, 446 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,679 you know, well, once again orthodox, he has kind of got 447 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:07,920 the the the correct middle ground here. Awesome. Awesome. Now I also 448 00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:14,400 have some questions for you from our from our viewers, if that's all right. 449 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,760 Sure. So the first one is actually I just wanted to say that 450 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,159 the vast majority of comments I got when I asked people if they had questions, 451 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:28,800 the vast majority of people who wrote in didn't have questions. They just 452 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,840 wanted to let me know that they really appreciate your content and that they've been 453 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,079 following you for a long time. So a lot of the people following my 454 00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:42,719 stuff are also following your stuff and really appreciate it. Can I ask you 455 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,960 a question just out of hers? Yeah? Sure? What was your Roman 456 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:51,119 background? Were you a trag cat Latin mass or like, what what what 457 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:58,320 was your path? I was actually pretty nominal so I didn't get into theology. 458 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,519 As a Roman Catholic, I was pretty nominal. I went to church 459 00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:06,400 every week. I wasn't like a twice a year Catholic. But I was 460 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:14,480 kind of just very superficially Catholic. It wasn't that important to me. It 461 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:17,400 was just kind of a part of my life. And then when I was 462 00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:23,440 still pretty young, I converted, or I began the process of converting to 463 00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:31,360 Judaism. But somebody challenged me with the words of Christ in John chapter fourteen, 464 00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:35,519 I am the way the truth in the life, and no one comes 465 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:39,599 to the Father except through me. And I was really struck by that because 466 00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:45,800 I realized that all of the rabbis that I had been reading, they all 467 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:51,800 said that Christians could still go to heaven by being good people. But Jesus 468 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,719 said that if we don't follow him, then we don't have God. And 469 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,199 I kind of had this Pascal's wager happened where I was. It's like, 470 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,360 well, if I leave Christianity for Judaism and it turns out I'm wrong, 471 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,960 yeah, then I lose everything. If I stay a Christian and it turns 472 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,840 out that the Jews are right, then I still get to go to heaven, 473 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,440 So it seems like a no brainer to stick around. It's a good 474 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,960 point. What's that also too? On that point, I mean, I'm 475 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,239 not an expert on Judaism, but you know, to me, it looks 476 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,440 like it's kind of all over the place, you know what I mean. 477 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:34,719 Right, there's as many Judaisms as there are basically rabbis. So you know, 478 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,880 you'll get told, oh, no, you really should be orthodox Jew. 479 00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:43,320 You know, that's the best way to be as assuring your place in 480 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,000 the afterlife, all the way down to you know, all the religions are 481 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,760 just past to God. I mean, so there's like, really, it's 482 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,199 very relativistic, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And then 483 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,920 I think they have they have an idea that you only ask your local rabbi 484 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,320 and you do you do whatever he says, right, But what if my 485 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:07,880 local rabbi contradicts the other local rabbi exactly? So it's very relativistic, and 486 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,079 to me, it's like, I just don't see how that's coherent. There's 487 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:15,880 also a lot of political ideology that goes into Judaism. Yeah, there's a 488 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:22,719 lot of Zionism and these things that's very important to Now that's not to say 489 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:28,440 that all Jews are Zionists. Obviously there's Jews for Palestine and stuff, but 490 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,960 there's just a very even then though, you have this very interesting sort of 491 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,480 political agenda that comes in, which is why you always see Jews involved in 492 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:50,079 sort of social movements, because politics is very much, very very much a 493 00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:54,679 part of the Jewish life. I think you could argue the same with It's 494 00:38:54,679 --> 00:39:00,840 the same with Roma, Uh, same with Protestantism in a lot of ways, 495 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,280 and also the same with Islam. Islam becomes very political eventually too. 496 00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,559 Yeah, definitely. I from what I've studied, it seems like Islam is 497 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:14,639 actually more of a political system even than it is a religion as we get 498 00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:20,159 more modern, seems that in a lot of ways. Right. So that's 499 00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:22,920 that's always been very interesting to me. But so after that, I spent 500 00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:31,079 a time in Seventh day Adventism, which is super cringe but uh, but 501 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:37,360 over time, what brought me out of Seventh day Adventism was comparing Ellen G. 502 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:45,840 White's statements to the Bible and realizing that these things just can't be reconciled. 503 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:52,639 And then I discovered that Ellen G. White had made a whole bunch 504 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:59,599 of prophetic predictions that never came to pass. For example, she predicted that 505 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:07,440 Britain was going to enter into the American Civil War and that Britain's involvement would 506 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:12,639 force the rest of the European nations to get involved, and that this would 507 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,679 result in a global conflict that would, I don't know, cause a bunch 508 00:40:17,679 --> 00:40:22,159 of destruction and all this, and she said all that was going to happen. 509 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:28,679 Well, obviously it didn't happen. So so adventists have all kinds of 510 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,840 excuses why that's okay. But at the end of the day, sacred Scripture 511 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,320 says that if a prophet prophesied falsely correct one time, you're supposed to put 512 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,519 them to death. And not that I'm saying we should have put Ellen G. 513 00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:46,480 White to death, but I am saying that if God right exactly, 514 00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:52,119 it shows she was a false prophet. And there's myriads of these away. 515 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:55,639 It's the same for the split off of Seven Day Avenues, which I was 516 00:40:55,679 --> 00:41:02,719 witnesses, because all stays Russell came out of SDA, and then between him 517 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:09,440 and judge what's his face, there's a whole bunch of false in Times predictions 518 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,960 as well, because he built He built Beth Serum, which was supposed to 519 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,280 be where King David would live in californ San Diego when he came back. 520 00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:22,280 Basically this was like you know, two story, you know, million dollars, 521 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,639 giant house. And then what do you know when David didn't come back, 522 00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:29,840 you know, judge, what's his face? Ends up living there? 523 00:41:31,159 --> 00:41:37,199 Exactly all kinds of these things. So then my to kind of make a 524 00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:42,880 long story short, I started Freed Indeed Ministries mostly to try to win Seventh 525 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,039 day Adventists to the true Gospel. So I was always debating Adventists. And 526 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:53,159 at that time I was a Protestant. I actually became a Reformed Protestant brilliant. 527 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,440 He got a Reformed background like me. I did. I did. 528 00:41:57,519 --> 00:42:04,320 I got into theology there. I started going to I went into the I 529 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,920 actually started seminary in an Adventist seminary. But then when I realized that I 530 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:16,559 couldn't stay Adventist, I left and switched over to Liberty University. And I 531 00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:21,880 loved my time at Liberty, but I was always doing debates with Seventh Day 532 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,719 Adventists, and I kept having this this argument that I would bring up where 533 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,880 I would say, well, Adventists claimed to be the true Church, but 534 00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:36,199 you guys weren't around until eighteen forty four, so where are all the Christians 535 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:42,079 before eighteen forty four? And you know, that was actually a pretty good 536 00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:47,119 argument. It was really successful at getting Adventists to think. But the problem 537 00:42:47,199 --> 00:42:52,599 was that eventually I turned the argument around on myself and said, well, 538 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:55,880 wait a second, where were all of the Calvinists before John Calvin? Where 539 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,639 were all the Lutherans before Martin Luther. If I'm going to keep making this 540 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,559 argument against administs, then I have to be intellectually consistent. So I started 541 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:10,679 studying church history a lot, and I have some cringe videos that are still 542 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,719 up on YouTube where when I first started this, I was I read, 543 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:22,239 I think I read the letters of Saint Ignatious of Antioch, and in one 544 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,079 of those letters he said something about predestination and I just clung to that, 545 00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:30,920 and I was kind of telling people, see, look, the church fathers 546 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,519 were Calvinists, so I'm going to find Calvinism all through the yearly church. 547 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,639 Well fast forward five years, when I've been doing this study for a while, 548 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:45,360 That's not what I found. Predictably, so I ended up I ended 549 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:51,000 up first becoming an Anglican because it was just much more familiar to me. 550 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:57,519 What kind of reformed where you Reformed Baptist or like PCA. I started out 551 00:43:57,559 --> 00:44:01,880 as a Reformed Baptist, but I found them to be very similar to Adventism 552 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:07,960 culturally, and so I got honestly, I got turned off by that pretty 553 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:13,280 fast. I joined a high church Presbyterian Church, so they were liturgical, 554 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:20,960 which I liked, but they were yeah, So I was in that for 555 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,880 a while. I still have a lot of respect for Doug Wilson and the 556 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:31,679 CRIC guys, but but over time I just couldn't stay there because I was 557 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:37,639 realizing more and more that you just can't find Calvinists in the Early Church and 558 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:44,159 it's just not a consistent framework. And then after I got out of it, 559 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,880 I started to realize how many philosophical problems there are and theological problems. 560 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,440 But when when I was in it, I couldn't see that. All I 561 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:58,840 could see was that there was this huge polemical problem. And then really I 562 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:04,039 converted to Orthodo. I wanted to convert to Orthodoxy, but I didn't feel 563 00:45:04,079 --> 00:45:09,519 ready yet. And then the code, the Big Sea happened, and all 564 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:15,559 of the churches in my area shut down, and I ought to be honest 565 00:45:15,599 --> 00:45:19,000 with you, I thought that was a really cowardly response. I wrote a 566 00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:23,639 letter saying that I thought that it was just really cowardly that I thought the 567 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:28,599 churches should stand up. And basically, if we got arrested, we got 568 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:35,960 arrested, but we should stand up to the tyrant, the medical tyranny of 569 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,159 shut it. They can't shut down church, was what I kept saying. 570 00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:45,239 Well, it just so happened that about five minutes from my house there is 571 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,440 an Orthodox church that never shut down and that basically had the same philosophy I 572 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,360 did, that the government doesn't have the right to tell us to shut down, 573 00:45:57,159 --> 00:46:01,760 and they were really the pre there who's now my priest father, Michael, 574 00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:08,280 was very intelligent, so he figured out that one of the things that 575 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,960 you could do was have gatherings as long as they were outside. So he 576 00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:19,280 started holding the liturgy outside so that there was nothing they could do. We 577 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:24,960 were still following the rules because we could have gatherings outside. So I started 578 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,360 attending the Divine Liturgy, and the very first time I attended the Divine Liturgy 579 00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:37,440 I was. I was pretty much sold. I joined the church. I 580 00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:42,559 joined the church in twenty twenty and then I just I've been part of the 581 00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:46,840 Orthodox Church since then. So it's been a weird journey. It's it took 582 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:52,079 me kind of a long time to get into Orthodoxy, but in a weird 583 00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:58,960 way, I thank God for COVID. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't really 584 00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:01,480 get back into it seriously, you know, until twenty thirteen, fourteen, 585 00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:06,760 So yeah, uh, you know, my first exposure two thousand and six 586 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,800 seven, and you know, it probably took me, you know again, 587 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,760 ten years before I was like, you know, I'll probably I'll probably just 588 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,920 go this route, you know, so I definitely understand the long term conversion 589 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:24,280 route. That was my approach. Good. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting 590 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:30,039 you and I have a lot in common, so that's pretty cool. How 591 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,400 if you don't mind me asking, Yeah, pinpoint right, I'm just curious, 592 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:40,239 like, how long were you Reformed a slash Anglican before you got into 593 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:46,119 Orthodoxy. I was in the Reformed movement for about three years, and then 594 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:53,440 I was Anglican for two years, and I probably would have stayed Anglican longer 595 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:59,440 except that when COVID happened, and they shut down. That was it for 596 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:05,360 me. That was that was really too big of a too big of a 597 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:12,800 just cowardly movement. I couldn't especially when there were like down in California, 598 00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:17,599 John MacArthur didn't shut down his church and was fighting against the state. And 599 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,760 not that I endorsed John MacArthur, I think that he does a lot of 600 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:29,719 stuff wrong. But I was so taken aback by the fact that someone with 601 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:36,760 no connection to the Apostles whatsoever, was clearly demonstrating a lot more courage than 602 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,719 the people in this Anglican Church, and really in any of the churches in 603 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,440 my area except to that Orthodox Church. But the Anglicans were making a claim 604 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:52,760 that they were the successors of the Apostles, that they had all of these 605 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:58,960 you know, martyrs in their history. Really was it like a conservative like 606 00:48:59,559 --> 00:49:02,199 calvin Anglican, like a high Church? It was a It was a very 607 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,679 high church Anglicanism. And I was still a Calvinist, but I think that 608 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:13,880 most of the people in the Anglican church I was at probably were not Calvinists. 609 00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:20,039 Was it Reformed Anglican or like mainline Anglican. It was Anglo Catholic. 610 00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:25,199 It was Anglican province of Christ the King. So I uh, I think 611 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:30,360 that that's based in California, if I remember correctly, but very conservative, 612 00:49:31,079 --> 00:49:40,280 very traditional, and still but still open to Calvinist people. So it's not 613 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:49,199 totally like against Calvinism, but Denglicanism has had that history of kind of tolerating 614 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,239 high and low Church Anglicans right and Calvinists, as you know. So yeah, 615 00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:58,480 right, which I think that to a certain extent, that's what draws 616 00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:01,880 a lot of people to it. But I was telling somebody the one time 617 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:07,679 that what draws you to Anglicanism is also what will eventually repulse you, because 618 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:15,159 as you become more and more firm in your convictions, you'll start to realize 619 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:22,360 that Anglicanism's big tent leaves a lot of room for frankly heresy to just pop 620 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:29,519 up and run a mock. So the very things that make you want to 621 00:50:29,519 --> 00:50:32,280 be Anglican at first are the things that are gonna make you not want to 622 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:39,039 say yeah. So another question I got, which I can't pronounce this guy's 623 00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:45,039 name because it's Greek, but he asked if you could explain the meaning of 624 00:50:45,079 --> 00:50:52,840 the thousand year reign of Christ in the book of Revelation. I think the 625 00:50:52,880 --> 00:51:00,440 thousand year reign posts Constantinopolitan Creed has to be understood spiritually. So just as 626 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:06,840 God doesn't literally own the cattle on a thousand hills, and then the cattle 627 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:13,000 that's number one thousand and one he doesn't own, so likewise, the thousand 628 00:51:13,119 --> 00:51:16,480 years is not a literal time frame, but a common usage in scripture for 629 00:51:16,679 --> 00:51:21,480 just a really long time. So I think that the kingdom is clearly set 630 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:24,360 up at the First Advent. The kingdom is the Church, and that's why 631 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:31,039 the resurrection that's spoken of is baptism, the first resurrection, second resurrection is 632 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:39,480 bodily resurrection. So you know when Constantopolitan Council number one in three eighty one, 633 00:51:39,559 --> 00:51:45,280 when it clarifies in the Creed whose kingdom shall have no end? That's 634 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:52,320 added to exclude killyism or literal millennialist interpretations. So as Orthodox, it's not 635 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,840 permissible to think that it's a literal thousand years. You could potentially conceivably be 636 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:06,239 post millennial because postmollinialism doesn't necessitate a thousand years. It just argues that Christ 637 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:10,280 comes at the end of the thousand year reign, which I think is true, 638 00:52:10,679 --> 00:52:15,639 and the real difference between Ahmil and Postmill would be whether or not things 639 00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:22,679 have the world gets Christianized prior to the return, or it doesn't and things 640 00:52:22,679 --> 00:52:27,360 get worse. So that's really the essential difference between those two. And I 641 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:34,920 think both of those are potential positions in the Orthodox view because they're not acclesiastic. 642 00:52:36,599 --> 00:52:38,039 So that's the Yeah, that's that's and I would say that there's a 643 00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:42,599 lot of other texts and things you can read to make it pretty clear that 644 00:52:42,639 --> 00:52:45,239 when Jesus came, he set up the kingdom. And so if jesus Kingdom 645 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:50,360 is a thousand years, well did the world end or did he come back 646 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,480 in the year one thousand thirty three. No, so clearly it's not a 647 00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:59,920 literal thousand years. Right now, speaking of Postmil, you actually studied at 648 00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:04,960 Bonson Seminary, right, Yeah, I still have all my post Mill stuff 649 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,960 up there. I've got you know, Gary North, and I've got bonds 650 00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:15,280 and rush to any Ken Gentry books, David Chilton books. A lot of 651 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,199 those books are still useful, still very good. David Chilton's commentary in Revelation 652 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,199 is really good. And I mentioning you mentioned the Doug Wilson stuff. I 653 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:28,719 just not too long ago bought Lighthearts two volume commentary on Revelations, which is 654 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:30,840 over there so or it's over there so but yeah, I mean I think 655 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:37,519 there's value in those commentaries and whatnot some of those books, but I don't 656 00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:45,400 think that, Like you said, ultimately they're ecclesiology and the historicity and you 657 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,039 know, the big issues like essence, energy and Philly oquay like they don't 658 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,920 They're just they have no idea about any of that stuff. So yeah, 659 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,519 I just think it's completely a historical and unworkable. I mean, how can 660 00:53:58,559 --> 00:54:05,760 you have within the same church reform Baptists who will not commune their children and 661 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,840 payto communion people right next to him, right? I mean, was payto 662 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:15,079 communion optional in the first thousand years of Christianity? No? No, right 663 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,920 exactly. So yeah, the whole Doug Wilson thing is kind of silly, 664 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,360 but a lot of people, it funnels a lot of people Orthodoxy, right, 665 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,599 it does, It definitely does. Now. You know, it's interesting 666 00:54:28,639 --> 00:54:35,280 because one of the questions I got was actually a guy named James who's Orthodox 667 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,679 curious but he's Presbyterian, and he was actually asking what your thoughts were on 668 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:47,800 post millennialism. So you mentioned that it can be you know, it can 669 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,400 be held with an orthodoxy. Do you feel that there's a strong case for 670 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,920 post millennialism and orthodoxy or what do you think is kind of where would you 671 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,599 go with that? I think that there's a pretty good case for at least 672 00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:08,199 some kind of maybe what they call optimistic eschatology. But what are your I'm 673 00:55:08,199 --> 00:55:12,400 open minded. I don't know. I mean, you know, it's just 674 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,360 really hard to say, and there's a lot of various scripture that I don't 675 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:20,199 understand, so it would be presumptuous of me to, you know, try 676 00:55:20,199 --> 00:55:23,719 to get really dogmatic about it. I mean, it's possible that, for 677 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:29,400 example, if we have an optimistic eschatology, uh, you know, let's 678 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,599 say something like the conversion of Jews, which anything is a future event. 679 00:55:32,199 --> 00:55:37,599 If that occurred, you know, and Paul's prediction in Romans eleven of the 680 00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:40,679 world converting as a result of that, that might be something happens quick, 681 00:55:42,519 --> 00:55:46,599 you know, maybe within a few years there's some you know, worldwide conversion, 682 00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:54,719 and that fulfills things like Zacharia fourteen. Right. Perhaps Zechari fourteen is 683 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,480 just fulfilled in a spiritual sense. Throughout the history of the church, it 684 00:55:59,519 --> 00:56:07,039 seems to speak of kind of a worldwide thing and nations that don't convert or 685 00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:14,079 submit experiencing cursing and punishment. So it can't be eschatological. There's no you 686 00:56:14,119 --> 00:56:21,000 don't get blessings and cursings in the Escatan right because history is done. So 687 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,039 it seems to presuppose some kind of still historical process of phenomena going on. 688 00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:30,960 But so you know, there's different ways to read and interpret Zaka fourteen. 689 00:56:30,039 --> 00:56:32,880 So it's just, you know, there's a lot of things that are that 690 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,079 are I just don't have the answer to. So, you know, maybe 691 00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:44,159 twenty years from now, if I God willing have been given more scriptural enlightenment 692 00:56:44,159 --> 00:56:47,719 and discernment, maybe then I have a better answer. But I think as 693 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,400 you go, you you more and more learn how much you don't know. 694 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,039 So I would say, yeah, I mean, I just don't know. 695 00:56:54,119 --> 00:57:02,559 I mean I would hesitate to say whether I don't know, that's probably I 696 00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:07,119 mean, I'm open to I hope there's a you know, the world continues 697 00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:09,880 for ten thousand years. When we get ten thousand years more years of people 698 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,280 converting, I mean there's more people in heaven, right, So yeah, 699 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,800 that sounds good. Right, certainly, I hope it is not the end 700 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:21,440 of the world and we're not going into some beast system right now. So 701 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,840 I'm opted. I hope that the optimistic view is correct, but also at 702 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:30,159 the same time, if it's not, then you know that's God's will. 703 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:36,440 So whatever, right, God will get us through whatever happens. So now, 704 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:42,159 do you think do you think that maybe I don't know how to ask 705 00:57:42,199 --> 00:57:45,119 this question, it's going to come out weird, I think, But do 706 00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:51,320 you think that there's maybe a problem within Christianity broadly, and maybe even Orthodoxy 707 00:57:51,400 --> 00:58:00,719 specifically, of kind of reading too much into parent events and seeing kind of 708 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,800 seeing the Book of Revelation unfold, so to speak, where you're kind of 709 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,199 reading the newspaper through the lens of revelation. Yeah, I said Jesus, 710 00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:12,360 Yeah, I think that that could play anybody. I mean, I've seen 711 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,400 it in Ruman Catholic traditional circles. I've seen it in Protestant evangelical circles circles, 712 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:23,800 I've seen it in Orthodox circles as well. So sure, yeah, 713 00:58:23,159 --> 00:58:30,000 I have a friend kind kind of a loose connection, but he converted to 714 00:58:30,079 --> 00:58:37,800 Orthodoxy, and now he's always posting about like this Russian nationalist stuff and he's 715 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:43,960 an American but he's just super into Russian nationalism and that's fine. But but 716 00:58:44,039 --> 00:58:50,119 it's just funny because he's got this kind of like Russia centric ends times speculation 717 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,199 going on. Yeah, I've always been I've always been hesitant about any of 718 00:58:53,199 --> 00:58:59,360 that kind of stuff. I mean because I've seen I've seen a lot of 719 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:04,119 people get burned with that kind of stuff every years. So yeah, but 720 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,000 you know, I think he's a sincere guy. I just I can't see 721 00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:13,760 that particular thing. I mean, so if that happens, then though, 722 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,519 okay, I guess that's cool, right, I mean, right, whatever, 723 00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:23,119 But yeah, I'm hesitant about a lot of that stuff, right right, 724 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,880 which I think is good because since you're a person who studies a lot 725 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:32,159 about politics, I can imagine that it would be tempting to start to kind 726 00:59:32,159 --> 00:59:36,360 of pull in some of these things. You know, you're into theology, 727 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,320 you're into politics. It's like this, this could this could easily blend, 728 00:59:40,519 --> 00:59:44,920 right, Yeah, But I mean there's also a lot of you know, 729 00:59:45,119 --> 00:59:47,679 people get duped and and conned by a lot of that stuff. So yeah, 730 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:53,280 right, exactly. So the same guy with the Greek name did also 731 00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:58,599 want to know, speaking of kind of the end time stuff, he wants 732 00:59:58,639 --> 01:00:01,800 to know if you could have explain the connection between the marriage Supper of the 733 01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:07,960 Lamb and the Eucharist, because he I think he's getting at but he's a 734 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:13,199 little bit confused about whether the marriage Supper of the Lamb is supposed to be 735 01:00:13,239 --> 01:00:19,199 seen as an eschatological events. All of the things that are eschatological are also 736 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,000 in the here and the now, so this in theology is called already not 737 01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:28,440 yet. So everything that is described, for example, a book of Revelation 738 01:00:28,519 --> 01:00:32,519 about partaking of the marriage feast, that's the divine liturgy. And if you 739 01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:37,360 read the Gospels, you know Jesus making that clear when he's talking to the 740 01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,519 apostles about I will sit with you, you know, eating in the kingdom 741 01:00:40,559 --> 01:00:44,519 and judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So that's that's the history of the 742 01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:49,039 Church Christ amongst the apostles, in the liturgy, in the in the marriage 743 01:00:49,039 --> 01:00:52,079 feast. So the marriage piece is the divine liturgy, and it's also an 744 01:00:52,199 --> 01:00:57,960 eschatological event too, so it's not either or it's a both end and I 745 01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:02,159 wouldn't. I don't recommend Roman Catholics stuff typically, but you know Scott Han's 746 01:01:02,199 --> 01:01:07,840 book marriage stuff with their lamb. The basic idea there is orthodox nice, 747 01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:17,599 okay, And James wants to know where do you get your awesome eighties Miami 748 01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:24,920 vice kind of attire? Where do I buy that? Like I guess is 749 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:29,039 whenever I go to a store and I find a shirt that I think is 750 01:01:29,039 --> 01:01:34,119 exceedingly garish and ugly, I buy it. So not one place, I 751 01:01:34,239 --> 01:01:36,280 just kind of get it wherever, and then it kind of just kind of 752 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,519 turned into its own thing, where then my family members and people just buy 753 01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:40,719 me. They're oh, this looks like Jay, I'll buy that form So 754 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,079 it just kind of turned into it. So sometimes things just kind of take 755 01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:47,760 on a life of their own. So, you know, I just started 756 01:01:49,119 --> 01:01:52,840 kind of doing that when I moved to Florida in twenty eighteen, and then 757 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,480 it kind of just stuck with it. So, yeah, he's gonna steal 758 01:01:57,519 --> 01:02:04,039 your look, man, he's gonna steal cares. I'm just playing. I 759 01:02:04,119 --> 01:02:07,280 just like Florida and the beach and all that, so nice. Yeah, 760 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,960 that's cool. Now you live in the Midwest, though, right, Well, 761 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,920 we bought a place in Florida, so we might be moving moving back 762 01:02:15,079 --> 01:02:21,000 the Okay, we have a house in Tennessee too, so wow, I'm 763 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,320 outside Nashville. But we also I went I lived in Florida for a year 764 01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,719 in twenty eighteen to see if I liked it, see if I wanted to 765 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:35,360 move there. And then right after that, when I was thinking about moving 766 01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,920 there, is when COVID happened, So everything kind of changed. And then 767 01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,639 I got a deal on a house in Tennessee, so I was like, 768 01:02:42,679 --> 01:02:45,760 well, I don't want to pass up that deal, so right, but 769 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,880 then we wanted to be back in Florida because I don't like the Tennessee weather. 770 01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,679 I mean, I have a lot of friends and family that I like 771 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:58,840 in Tennessee, but I would much rather be in Florida. So so anyway, 772 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,880 so yeah, I mean we now we just need to sell a rental 773 01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:07,519 house that we have here before we can move down there. That's cool. 774 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:12,039 Yeah. I really love Florida too. I actually live in the Northwest, 775 01:03:12,559 --> 01:03:16,719 which I have to admit I have grown to appreciate the Northwest a lot. 776 01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:23,239 Yeah, I mean I really love the scenery, I really love the nature 777 01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:30,480 here. I don't really love the politics here. Yes, Seattle and Portland 778 01:03:30,679 --> 01:03:37,199 pretty much dominate Pacific Northwest, make it obnoxious. But like, if you 779 01:03:37,239 --> 01:03:42,480 can kind of look past all that and just enjoy your surroundings, you can 780 01:03:42,519 --> 01:03:45,920 go hiking all the time, you can go well Tennessee, Tennessee is really 781 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,480 pretty for nature. I mean it's got nice but I mean I grew up 782 01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:55,679 in Tennessee, so and then I grew up in San Diego for teenage years 783 01:03:55,719 --> 01:03:59,400 in part, and then grew up back in Tennessee again. So I feel 784 01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:06,440 like I've they've had my share of woods and forests and lakes. So I'd 785 01:04:06,559 --> 01:04:13,039 rather be in beach climate than forests and lakes. And I mean Tennessee gets 786 01:04:13,079 --> 01:04:16,199 ice storms, and I just it's not any fun. So I get you. 787 01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:20,800 I completely understand. Yeah, I've had a lot of fun trips to 788 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:26,119 Miami, so I would definitely, I would definitely live in Florida. But 789 01:04:27,239 --> 01:04:30,000 yeah, well, Saint Augustine is where we we got a place, and 790 01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:32,400 I mean it's a lot more it's a lot more chill than than Miami. 791 01:04:32,599 --> 01:04:36,760 It's it's the oldest city in America, so it's very It feels like if 792 01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:41,320 you've been to California, like Balboa Park or something. You know, it 793 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:46,000 feels like it's Spanish. It's Spanish architecture, and so it's got like a 794 01:04:46,039 --> 01:04:49,840 it's got like a Spanish pirate vibe, which is which is fun. So 795 01:04:50,119 --> 01:04:56,679 that's awesome. Ye, Saint Augustine, Florida. Wow, that's cool. 796 01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:02,159 Speaking of Saint Augustine a fellow, but I got head out pretty soon, 797 01:05:02,239 --> 01:05:04,719 sure thing, sure thing. So this is the last one. A fellow 798 01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:11,039 named Sean wants to know. Since Saint Augustine seems to get quite a bit 799 01:05:11,199 --> 01:05:17,119 wrong theologically, why do we unorthodox he still consider him a saint. Well, 800 01:05:17,119 --> 01:05:21,480 he had the humility in the book to say that he submits the Book 801 01:05:21,599 --> 01:05:26,079 on the Trinity to the judgment of the Church. And you know the later 802 01:05:26,159 --> 01:05:30,960 councils that mentioned his works when they mentioned him as a saint, the Fifth 803 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,440 Council, for example, I mean, they don't mention on the Trinity, 804 01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:40,320 they mentioned his anti Manichean works. So you know, the reality is, 805 01:05:40,639 --> 01:05:45,000 you know, Church Father's got things wrong independently, and getting things wrong is 806 01:05:45,039 --> 01:05:50,239 not you know, I mean, salvation is not mainly iq test So the 807 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:59,079 Church adjudged his life of sanctity to cover for whatever theological you know, wrongs 808 01:05:59,079 --> 01:06:02,719 there were. So so that's my answer to that. Awesome. Well, 809 01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:09,519 thank you and thanks again for joining today. I appreciate your time, and 810 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,320 everybody, please do share this with your friends so that they too can be 811 01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:16,920 freed. Indeed, and I'm gonna go ahead and include links in the description 812 01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:21,480 to Jay Dyer's YouTube channel and also to where you can buy his book, 813 01:06:21,639 --> 01:06:26,360 Esoteric Collie Wood. That's on my website. Be sure not to get it. 814 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,360 Don't get it from Bezos and Amazon. Yeah, get it from his 815 01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,519 website directly. Don't support the evil Empire exactly. All right, thanks having 816 01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:38,840 to appreciate it. Great chat. Bye,