1 00:00:14,359 --> 00:00:19,199 I would welcome to another exciting episode of Adventures and DevOps that might be live. 2 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,800 I'm not actually sure. We're using some new software today and it says 3 00:00:22,839 --> 00:00:27,800 I'm streaming, so if you're watching this live, cool. I hope I 4 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:34,000 don't see anything stupid and foolish. I'm excited today to have as my guest 5 00:00:34,119 --> 00:00:36,479 Jack, Jack, welcome to the show. Would you tell us a little 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,960 bit about yourself and what you do? Yeah, Hey, Jonathan, pleasure 7 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:48,320 to be here, maybe live or or maybe maybe, but yeah, pleasure 8 00:00:48,359 --> 00:00:51,119 to pleasure to be here, and thanks for having me on the podcast. 9 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:56,840 My name is Jack McCarty. I am a DevOps advocate at a company called 10 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:04,120 gear Set. We are a DevOps platform for Salesforce. So my background over 11 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:11,480 the last four and a half years is being helping Salesforce development teams streamline their 12 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:18,079 release management practices at when it comes to Salesforce helpum work carecept for for four 13 00:01:18,079 --> 00:01:22,280 and a half years and doing exclusively that in the last year and a half 14 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,519 in my role as a DevOps advocate, and that involved producing content. I 15 00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:32,120 run my own podcast as well, which is called dev up Stories, and 16 00:01:32,239 --> 00:01:37,280 I present the whole wide range of Salesforce community events and Salesforce events that you 17 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:41,599 that you find in that ecosystem. Cool. I'm looking forward to learning a 18 00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:45,719 little bit about Salesforce and DevOps. But before we dive into that, let's 19 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,640 set the stage a little bit. I imagine that many of our audience know 20 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,959 as much or less than I do about Salesforce. So let me just sort 21 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:57,640 of paint the picture what I understand Salesforce to be and my experience with it, 22 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,920 and then you can sort of fill up the gaps. So yeah, 23 00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:04,840 not not not to start the show off on a bitter note, but I 24 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,960 lost my job to Salesforce once. Oh no, it was okay, I 25 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,319 was actually ready to leave the company anyway. But uh I was. I 26 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,400 was managing an e commerce team. Uh, and we got the entire team 27 00:02:17,439 --> 00:02:23,240 got basically outsourced to Salesforce. H now almost the entire team. My predecessor, 28 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:28,400 no, sorry, my successor. Uh, he's still there actually and 29 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,719 manages the company. Uh and and works with the Salesforce team. Uh. 30 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:37,400 You know that that's mostly outsourced. It's mostly a consultancy, uh to of 31 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:40,199 course update Salesforce and so on. But I don't really have a clear sense 32 00:02:40,199 --> 00:02:44,639 of what he does or what they do with Salesforce. I mean, I 33 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:49,879 know that Salesforce is a CRM. I'm not a sales guy. I don't 34 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,319 really keep track of customer client relationships. So you know, a CRM is 35 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,039 sort of a nebulous concept to me in the first place. And imagine many 36 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,840 of our DevOps listeners kind of feel the same way. Like that's the thing 37 00:02:59,879 --> 00:03:02,360 that marketing guys talk about it the sales guys talk about, can you make 38 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:08,520 it concrete? Like what is salesforce from a technical standpoint? And how do 39 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:15,039 salesforce developers and DevOps engineers and so on interact with it? Yeah, that's 40 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:20,360 a great question. So you're right. So Salesforce primarily is a CRM, 41 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:28,080 so a platform used for managing the relationships with our customers, managing how they 42 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:30,199 market to them, how they store their data, how they use their data 43 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:36,080 to enable other business functions. So that's where Salesforce kind of starts. And 44 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,599 that's kind of a poor platform that a lot of companies use. Salesforceport is 45 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:44,840 the management of those relationships. However, Salesforce isn't just a CRM anymore. 46 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:52,520 So Salesforce over the last over the last twenty years Starry founded twenty one twenty 47 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:58,759 two years ago or so now has grown and the Salesforce suite of products now 48 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,120 is huge. So you have solutions for for sales, for customer service, 49 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:09,280 for e commerce, for marketing, for a whole bunch of things. Salesforce 50 00:04:10,479 --> 00:04:15,280 seem to bring out a new product or a new what they call cloud every 51 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,000 it feels like every month, but it's not often nothing every every month, 52 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,279 but a different a different cloud that enables you to do different things. So 53 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:30,279 what it is is ats core as unifying the customer experience for any business. 54 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,560 But a lot of people will use it that commonly use it will be in 55 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,240 in a sales team, in a marketing team, or a customer success or 56 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:42,800 service team. So that's that's kind of the foundation of what Salesforce is now 57 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,079 if we think about what Salesforce development teams do specifically and how that relates to 58 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:54,000 devils. So Salesforce is out and out of the book solution. So you 59 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,360 can buy Salesforce, you can buy one of their their clouds and use that 60 00:04:59,399 --> 00:05:02,720 cloud to to start doing things for your customers. So you'll have a base 61 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:11,360 product effectively, and Salesforce developers and Salesforce what we call admins or Salesforce administrators 62 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:19,079 can configure their company's Salesforce instance to do any number of the spot functions or 63 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:26,199 execute the spoke business workflows. So, say a lead comes into your company 64 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,920 and you want to nurture that lead and how your sales reps and service reps 65 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,120 interact with that customer. You can design the spoke workflows based on what your 66 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,120 company objectives and goals are and how you market to those people, et cetera. 67 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,199 So that's the responsibility of a Salesforce administrator and then a Salesforce developer a 68 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,199 lot more. The Salesforce developers will write custom code and custom logic to match 69 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,199 those business objectives and things like that, as well as to increase the extensibility 70 00:05:51,199 --> 00:05:58,199 of the platforms so that you can have custom websites for customers or customer experiences 71 00:05:58,959 --> 00:06:02,319 custom experiences for those customers as well. So that's the core function of the 72 00:06:02,399 --> 00:06:09,920 Salesforce developer on the platform. When it comes to debus and traditional develops, 73 00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:15,839 traditional devils doesn't really apply to Salesforce because Salesforce posts host of the infrastructure, 74 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,759 so things like things like standards, security, standard scalability, and all those 75 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:26,240 things are actually taking care for you by Salesforce anyway as a platform as a 76 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,360 service. Now where debups comes into the mixes is all about the release management 77 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:38,560 and how you can seamlessly ship new features and the functionality and that extensibility. 78 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:45,360 That was just mentioning about the platform to your Salesforce end users. So debups 79 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,680 is an integral part of the release management cadence. So developers may well used 80 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:57,199 to be using verse control systems and they already have may have experience using CI 81 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,000 tooling and things like that, whereas Salesforce administrator doesn't. So a lot of 82 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:06,399 Salesforce platform is clicks not code interface and clicks not code building rather than custom 83 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:13,800 custom scripting or writing a text code, which is Salesforce's development language. And 84 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:20,680 as a result, the methods of getting those customizations from a developer environment or 85 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,160 what you call a sandbox in Salesforce, so this is like like a like 86 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:29,519 a testing environment or a staging environment if you will. Getting those changes out 87 00:07:29,519 --> 00:07:32,560 into a live production system in Salesforce can be challenging, and that's why companies 88 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,920 like gear Set exists to help with that process and help you build automations to 89 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:41,680 get it through However, many stages of handbooks as you have and out into 90 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,839 a live environment. So Salesforce develops is a lottle bit atypical to to what 91 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,000 the listeners of this podcast will be more familiar with when you think about develops. 92 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:57,240 Okay, fascinating. So it is the salesforce development similar to say, 93 00:07:57,959 --> 00:08:03,079 right, developing against a Google API or something like that. Or or is 94 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:09,240 it more define like like imagine there's a pis that you can talk to with 95 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:11,759 in Salesforce, but maybe it's more standbox or something like that. I don't 96 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,519 know, maybe you can, yes, So yeah, if we think, 97 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:24,079 if we if we think about a typical, typical piece of work that a 98 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,079 development might do. So a request might come from the business and say we 99 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:37,559 want to execute this flow inside of our salesforce environment. When as a lead 100 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,320 moves from this stage to this stage, this is a Salesforce developer salesforce appening. 101 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:46,879 Sometimes depending on skill sets, et cetera, and what's actually required, 102 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,559 we'll go, we'll pick up pick up that ticket and they will operate in 103 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:58,080 a a sandbox environment which somewhat mimics the production environment in the real life environment. 104 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:03,000 What they'll do is they'll then add their customizations either directly in that developer 105 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:09,120 environment using the clicks of code interface that Salesforce has. If custom scripting is 106 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:13,480 required, then the developer will be involved and they will they will build that 107 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,879 and then they will test it and make sure it works in their developer environment, 108 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,480 and then what they will do is they will then look to ship that 109 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,360 and push that to a testing and usually another testing environment, so this will 110 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,559 be an environment that is a lot closer to the live production environment, and 111 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,000 best practice is for most orders to have what they would call a UAT or 112 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:43,639 staging or pre proud sometimes the naming convention varies, or or to org and 113 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,679 then that will be then be tested against to make sure that those new customizations 114 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:52,039 that you've added will then be able to work with everything else that already exists. 115 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,159 So it's very common for Salesforce to be integrated with other ERPs or billing 116 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,000 systems and things like that, so making sure that any customization that happens doesn't 117 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:07,080 break those integrations and integrations with other APIs before then shipping those changes up to 118 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,720 production and for the end users to play with. How long that process takes 119 00:10:15,039 --> 00:10:22,159 varies widely from organizations to organizations. So a lot of the larger, larger 120 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,080 enterprise companies will will only release production every two weeks. For example. Smaller 121 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,799 organizations or more agile organizations will be able to ship changes once a week and 122 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,639 a couple of times a week or maybe every day, depending on how their 123 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:39,639 debop process is set up and how fast they can run through the testing requirements 124 00:10:39,639 --> 00:10:46,200 that Salesforce has itself or their self and posed testing requirements or any user acceptance 125 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,519 testing that they might want to do as well. So, yeah, the 126 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:54,320 Salesforce development happens all like within the Salesforce platform and Salesforce Salesforce gives you plenty 127 00:10:54,360 --> 00:11:00,080 of customizability. We can expand that customer ability customized ability with custom code and 128 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:05,639 then uh and and make make Salesforce what you want it to be. No 129 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:11,480 two Salesforce are the same unless you happen to have two people to two organizations 130 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:16,519 using just sales Cloud or Marketing Clouder service plant write out the box with no 131 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,840 customizations. You can do that, but it's not recommended. It's probably not 132 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,600 only going to be basically fit for purpose. Okay, I'm curious. Uh 133 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,960 so you talked about some organizations or release every two weeks, some as frequently 134 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,120 as once a day, or or maybe multiplants per day. Is the the 135 00:11:33,159 --> 00:11:39,639 ideal of continuous delivery and deployment like in the sense that the developer makes a 136 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,440 change and everything else from that point on is automatic, test run automatically. 137 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,679 Everything's automatic and is deployed as soon as everything is green. Is that realistic 138 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,679 within salesforce or uh? Or not? For for the for the reasons you 139 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,960 are describing. That's a great question, and I might get myself in trouble 140 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:07,320 trouble with with the answer here, can you do it? Yes? Should 141 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:16,159 you do it? Probably? Not? So everything everything up to everything from 142 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:24,879 that initial development shipped to the first testing environment. Everything else theoretically can then 143 00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:28,960 be automated and wait for every every dream check to go. If you have 144 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:33,519 a robust process, and if you have if you have confidence in that process 145 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,720 as well, if any of those checks failed, it could be a fallback 146 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:45,080 to developer review and say all those green lights, all those green lights are 147 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,080 green. Theoretically you could have the stage that automatically pushes pushes to a production 148 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:56,559 environment. The problem with pushing salesforce production environment live is when that happens. 149 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:03,120 So when that happens without a button to say go to production. A lot 150 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,519 of times you will want to deploy to salesforce production environment outside of user working 151 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,080 hours or typical user working hours to make sure that something does go back wrong. 152 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:16,639 You can invent your rollback strategy or things don't just change under under a 153 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:22,320 user's speed. So the key thing about salesforces. Salesforce is in every organization 154 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:28,360 with tier one business critical applications. So if you accidentally take it down by 155 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,720 having an opmated deployment process and something does go wrong, even if all the 156 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,000 green lights pass, something doesn't work as anticipated, you know you skip, 157 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,120 you skip a user acceptance testing in your new business logic doesn't quite work as 158 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,320 anticipated. Confused as users you know take you take out your your core business 159 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,200 application, which can be sometimes be one thousand, two thousand and three thousand, 160 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:52,440 four thousand and five thousand users prevents them from doing their job. So 161 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,399 theoretically, theoretically, yes, it is possible, like a platform like gear 162 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,399 Set or our confessors is out there should be able to enable that for you. 163 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,960 However, in terms of best practice and the realistic vision for and what 164 00:14:09,039 --> 00:14:13,519 salesforce is used for in every organization that often makes it not practical. What 165 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,279 you can do, however, is do all of those green light checks and 166 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,600 validate against production as well. So Salesforce is a function where you can validate 167 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:26,720 a deployment package of new features to production and allow you to be able to 168 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:31,200 then deploy that at a time of your choosing. So everything up until that 169 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:41,200 last stage can be automated to some extent. Where the Salesforce development is again 170 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:48,440 is a typical. Often the less mature delivery teams won't use something like version 171 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,559 control, so a lot of the listeners here will be used to working with 172 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:58,600 version control, and that's your de fact that development method working in those branches. 173 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,039 But because Salesforce is a lie is continually continually live environment, production can 174 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,000 actually be edited as as it is by a Salesforce administrator. If you have 175 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:11,679 the permissions, it's you're not dealing with It's not we have an application and 176 00:15:11,679 --> 00:15:13,679 we're going to shift and up big to it, and then you get the 177 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:18,600 new version of the application and the application is always live. So so salesforces 178 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,600 source of truth if you like, this is a big This is a big 179 00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:26,200 argument in in in the Salesforce developed world is what is your source of truth 180 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,480 because technically, the source of truth is production as it is currently live. 181 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,480 Whereas teams that teams that are developing in a source driven method, those your 182 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:39,879 source driven method will always be a few steps ahead of production just by the 183 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,320 nature of development. But your source of truth technically is as it currently exists. 184 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:52,919 Val So, how long have you been doing your podcast? So I've 185 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:58,519 been doing my podcast for I started in November November, all right, so 186 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:03,000 a year approximately. Yeah, So that should give you a pretty good amount 187 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:06,559 of time to answer my next question, which is going to be what are 188 00:16:06,559 --> 00:16:11,960 some of the biggest challenges that come up for whether it's a perception or technical 189 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:17,080 challenges whatever, what are some of the biggest challenges that devlops people face when 190 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:26,679 interacting with with salesforce and salesforce deployments and teams. Yes, I try and 191 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:33,600 pick just one. So I think the word that you used there was a 192 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:41,600 perception, and the perception is for a lot of folks that salesforce step ups 193 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:51,480 is quite difficult to be able to do salesforce stepmomps really well and really effectively. 194 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:57,720 It does involve implementing version control. It does then extend to ultimating parts 195 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,559 of that and the foundations tends to be verage control. I've mentioned already a 196 00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:07,039 couple of times Salesforce has a has a Clique NOTT code interface, and that's 197 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,200 how the majority of Salesforce development work is done. So Salesforce, if we 198 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:17,559 look at the history of the platform and how a work traditionally traditionally went, 199 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,599 it started with clicks not code, like that was all rage Salesforce. You 200 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,799 then started to see folks move away from them, and the more bespoke business 201 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:33,319 processes were requested developers and coding became quite heavily important. So there there are 202 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:38,599 Salesforce orbs out there that are so heavily customized with custom code that you know 203 00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:45,200 that those orbs can become fairly unmanageable, and that obviously increases the complexity of 204 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,200 the devils process and all the checks and balances that need to happen and and 205 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:52,599 make make making sure that code is maintained. But over the last couple of 206 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:59,960 years, Salesforce internally have been doing this really big push to use the law 207 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,039 more of the native the native functionality that's built into the platform that they've built 208 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:11,799 for you to refer to that with clicks not code, messaging so so as 209 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:15,160 a result, a lot of the Salesforce ecosystem, I don't really want to 210 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,200 put a figure on it, but I would say good sixty to seventy percent 211 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:29,880 of Salesforce administrators for developers, for example, don't have experience coding, which 212 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,480 as a result makes that barrier to entry for adopting devilops best practice is quite 213 00:18:34,519 --> 00:18:37,839 difficult because version control, when you're trying to wrap your head around it is 214 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,440 I remember when I when I first started a gear so I don't have a 215 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,440 tech background, like I'm not developing myself. When I came to Gearson four 216 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,480 and a half years ago, I had to wrap my head around versus control 217 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:56,160 and the what SALESFORCECTIC best practices look like in comparison to how our engineers were 218 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,799 working. And version control is quite a scary concept, and that barrier to 219 00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:03,680 mentoring, that initial barrier to entry, I think is quite high, and 220 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,319 that learning curve can be quite steep, and that's something that we've made quite 221 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,119 a concerted effort to do it. Gearsa is build a platform. So we 222 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,839 have a learning platform related to Salesforce DevOps called DevOps launch Pad, which I 223 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,400 like to burge control fundamentals have to get started to burgeon control for the salesforce 224 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,440 and things like that. That barrier to entry can be can be quite high. 225 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:34,119 The I think the other biggest challenge for any salesforce team looking to change 226 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,799 the way they're working is a cultural thing. So this is where so I 227 00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:44,880 have a gear set called rob He is a salesforce developer and architect by trade, 228 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,759 and as the background, he's spread super technical, whereas a lot of 229 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:53,759 my career I've focused a lot more on business change and culture change. And 230 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,839 there is this in a lot of teams. This this pro sets in inertia. 231 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,559 You know, we've always done it this way, and we're so scared 232 00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:07,720 of this thing looks quite demops, looks quite hard and quite difficult to difficult 233 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,480 to implement, and we've always done it this way. Yet it's pretty painful, 234 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:15,799 but it works. It's not optimal, but it works. That we've 235 00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:21,440 always done it this way in mindset can be quite hard to change because typically 236 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,559 a lot of teams tend to be risk averse. There's a lot of challenges 237 00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:29,240 on the platform as it is, let's not mess with anything. So driving 238 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:33,319 people to see and envision that there is a better way of doing things. 239 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,759 It requires a little bit of upfront work and a bit of upfront effort to 240 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:40,079 change, but it can be done, I think is one of the other 241 00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:45,759 other biggest, biggest challenges and drivers behind that. So yeah, that that 242 00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:52,119 cultural piece is absolutely absolutely huge, and it starts with it starts with the 243 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,079 people. But if you have the people there and you invest in the people 244 00:20:55,079 --> 00:20:59,359 in their learning journey, the importance, the importance of salesforce develops and the 245 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,920 benefits else worse devellops and users getting features faster and things like that really start 246 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,519 to come into the fold. If if that, if you have I guess 247 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:11,440 executive sponsorship is a big thing. The exec sponsor's got You've got to have 248 00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:14,920 somebody that says, yes, this is a good idea from a slightly higher 249 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,279 level, and especially when there's larger teams, to say, hey, yeah, 250 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:21,160 we do want to do this, we do want to improve everybody's lives 251 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,680 and one of at the end of the day, improve our end users lives. 252 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:29,720 And you know, adopting best practice debuts does change the salesforce delivery team's 253 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:33,400 lives. It was a common thing. So I used to I used to 254 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,000 sell gear sets, products, I used to be an account executive and help 255 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,519 build the sell a team at gear Set. Commonly, I would speak to 256 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:44,079 salesforce teams and their developers and appmans will be would be up at two three 257 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,640 am in the morning doing un deployment. It would take ten hours to do 258 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,880 a production deployment because of how quirky and challenging the system is to deal with. 259 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,839 And then when they implement a solution like gear Set for example, or 260 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,279 any of our any of our competitors, that brings it down to do it 261 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,200 two hours and you know, being able to go home at seven pm on 262 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,039 a Friday rather than eleven pre Those are very very real, real life stories 263 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:12,599 that you hear pretty frequently in this space. So yeah, that was That 264 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,160 was a bit of a rambling answer to what was a very simple questions. 265 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,200 No, it wasn't a simple question. I mean a simple question, but 266 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:27,160 I expected a fair amount of nuance. I'm curious, Maybe I don't know 267 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,599 how much you want to talk about your career, but I'm curious how you 268 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,160 got interested in DevOps in sales sports. You know, how did you know 269 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,000 we jump up being an account executive and you know, so you sounds like 270 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,440 your career is taking a more of a technical turn at some point. How 271 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,480 did that happen? Yeah, it's a really interesting, really interesting story, 272 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:52,799 I think. So. My background prior to prior to your set, well, 273 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,799 I did find a bunch of different different things beforehand, but predominantly hugs 274 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:03,359 In didn't retail sales. Did I didn't work for a local utilities company. 275 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:07,799 I did, And the job that I have before Gearset was as a recruiter, 276 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,799 so I specialized in building architecture and design, not architecture as we as 277 00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:17,839 I t people think about architecture. So I did that for for three years 278 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,440 and an opportunity came up to work at gear Set. In the early days, 279 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:29,160 Gearset was thirty other people. When I joined the company in March of 280 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,799 twenty nineteen, an opportunity came up, came up to be a recruiter, 281 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,559 so I spoke to the CEO and went through that process and they ended up 282 00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:42,000 going with somebody else for the recruiter role. And CEO turned to me and 283 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,720 he said, given, if somebody else did a lot bit more experience based 284 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,359 on what we need, we do, but we really liked you and think 285 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,400 you could do a good job on ourself team, do you want to come 286 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,960 and do that instead? And at this point I was just like I was 287 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,799 sold on gear Set because the company of the culture was amazing and I really 288 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:03,799 want to be a part of and you know, and entry into a tech 289 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,119 startup, you know, as what a lot of a lot of folks are 290 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,039 striving for these days, you know, you know, tech startups seem to 291 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:14,559 be seemed to be one of the places that a lot of people strive for, 292 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,839 especially coming out of college or university these days. Anyways, So so 293 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,319 yeah, it's one of the take a shot, So kme Gearsett join joined 294 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:27,720 the company. We're about thirty people back then. And when I say so, 295 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:32,400 but like, don't don't turn off when I say sales, folks that 296 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,559 are listening, you know, so we're not that scary of but sales and 297 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:38,279 gear Set is a lot bit different different back then. So whilst my time 298 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,880 was account executive, what we were really was an account executive and a solution 299 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,799 engineer kind of wrapped up into one. So we as account executives did the 300 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,400 demos. So often, folks that you've ever been on a product demo for 301 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:56,759 any of the other stuff where that you might be investigating. We're currently usual 302 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,640 have an account executive that does a bit of a pitch and a bit of 303 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,480 the sale, and then that would get taken over by a sales or a 304 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:07,039 solution engineer which will then demo the product and talk to you about the technical 305 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,880 nuance at the tool and platform and the problems that you're solving. Big gear 306 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,160 set, we work on executives and solution engineers all in them. So me 307 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,200 and my colleague, a few of my colleagues were that and the sales so 308 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,920 as a result of that, they got quite embedded into the technical issues that 309 00:25:25,079 --> 00:25:30,440 folks face on the platform. You know, growing startup kind of wore different 310 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,599 hats and customer success as well, so often in the early days I would 311 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:37,960 be doing customer support as well when I had a spare minute and we needed 312 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,960 support. So all of our support is done by an intercom, which is 313 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,599 a chat widget in the app itself, so in the early days I'll be 314 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,480 in there and helping debug issues with customers that they might be facing. So 315 00:25:49,599 --> 00:25:52,359 a lot of the early days of working for a start giving me a lot 316 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,519 of exposure to a lot of different things rather than just doing sales. So 317 00:25:56,519 --> 00:26:02,559 I hope you're the sales team there, helped implement different selling motions and things 318 00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:04,880 like that, And I was just like, there's some things that I like. 319 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,799 There's there's some things that I really like about this this job and like 320 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:11,039 what I do, and there's some things that I don't like. How how 321 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:15,119 can I do all the things I like doing and try and abstract what I 322 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,119 don't enjoy as much? And that's how I came to have the have the 323 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,759 job that I have now. So I enjoy educating, educating folks on DevOps 324 00:26:23,759 --> 00:26:30,720 that I enjoy presenting public speaking as has though it was terrifying in the beginning, 325 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,359 it's something that I quite enjoy. And being able to interact with folks 326 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,799 in this space has been really fun and it's really fun, and I think 327 00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:48,240 it's just it's one of those things that you embed yourself into into an environment 328 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,160 that fosters these best practices and the like I say, I'm I have a 329 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,480 colleague robber. It is far more technical than I am can actually code that 330 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,839 we have skills that compliment each others. So I have a lot more experience 331 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,640 in pitching to pitching and speaking in a in a way that an executive will 332 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:12,799 understand and translated to business value, as well as having enough enough technical knowledge 333 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:18,240 that a developer or an architecture things like that well also also listen to me 334 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,240 and have a difference. So being able to have two different style of conversations 335 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,880 to translate value, I guess for everybody involved, and that's kind of helped 336 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:32,240 how it how it kind of developed. I still haven't tried to try to 337 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,920 write script anything. Maybe that's something that I do in a bit of downtime, 338 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,160 but I'm quite fortunate to be supported by my colleague Rob who who handles 339 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,279 the more technical side of the topics that we cover, and a lot of 340 00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:45,680 what I do is based on extracting value. So I mentioned earlier in the 341 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:52,440 podcast, and Salesforces is a Tier one business application. The companies run their 342 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:53,920 businesses on it at the end of the day, and being able to get 343 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,759 the most value of that platform is hyper important to them. The selfware develops 344 00:27:59,759 --> 00:28:04,680 and good DevOps practices not only enables change faster, so digital digital transformation and 345 00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:11,799 change management is you know, a huge, huge bausewords and DevOps. DevOps 346 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,440 and poor DevOps is actually a really big innovator for that, inhibitor of that 347 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:19,240 happening in our space of being able to speak to executives in that way to 348 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:23,119 help them get the most business value out of what is an expensive platform like 349 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:29,759 Salesforce isn't cheap. It's probably the biggest expenditure in any enterprise organization. So 350 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,319 that is that that is super important and something that I'm passionate about is is 351 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,279 help. It is helping those folks being able to do their jobs happen faster, 352 00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:41,519 make their lives happier, and like, like again, the amount of 353 00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:45,759 stories I get told about that this is this was such pain or as such 354 00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,480 pain in us positive stress and sleickless nights, and you know, the implement 355 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,039 a solution to remedy that pain and it really gets it gives quality of life 356 00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:59,079 back to people's jobs. So so that's kind of a bit the journey that 357 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:04,279 have been on, and we'll continue. Sleep driven development is a powerful motivator, 358 00:29:04,319 --> 00:29:10,400 isn't it. Coffee driven development. I think it's the most common type 359 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,720 of development I see. So if our engineering team is anything to do by 360 00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:18,920 anyone, I'm curious to learn a little bit more about gear Set. I 361 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:27,079 mean, obviously gear Set sells services related to the salesforce, but can you 362 00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:33,200 maybe elaborate on a little bit what what does gear set? Do you know 363 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:38,240 who would hire gear set and port for Yes, so, so gear set 364 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:45,079 actually has has an interesting story. So gear Set as it exists right now, 365 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:51,720 we are an all in one Salesforce Salesforce depuls platform for companies that use 366 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:57,279 Salesforce. So, but when you're thinking about how do we protect our or 367 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:02,839 how do we make sure it's backed up should we have like a production disaster 368 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:08,359 or what have you, we have a backup service if you need to need 369 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:14,240 to move data between environments for testing or for any other reason than we have 370 00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:18,720 tooling to do that. We have c I tooling, automation tooling, pipeline, 371 00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:22,680 development pipelines like you would set up in in bit bocket, or an 372 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:29,559 action similar to things like actions. We have tooling for for Salesforce specifically. 373 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,480 But the gear Set, gear set, the gears term is really interesting because 374 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:40,920 gear Set was founded by so Kevin and Matt. We're software engineers at a 375 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,359 company called red Gate. And you might be familiar with Redgate or if it 376 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,880 sounds familiar. The reason for that is is because they are a company based 377 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,519 out in Cambridge, UK, which is where gear sets headboard that create uh 378 00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:57,599 that have databased det ups, tooling for Microsoft tools, SEQ server and things 379 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:04,480 like that. So when when Redgate we're looking at Salesforce and doing their own 380 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,240 Salesforce implementation, they were just like, Oh, there must be a better 381 00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:11,079 way to do all of this than what Salesforce gives you out in the books. 382 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,720 And that's how you founded is founded by We're used to being able to 383 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,240 do all these cool things for the Microsoft products that that we made tooling for, 384 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,240 Let's see if we can do it for Salesforce. So bringing that that 385 00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:30,640 engineering culture to Salesforce and Salesforce DevOps specifically is how Gears has founded. So 386 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,640 one of one of Breadgate's flagship products is SQL compare, which allows you to 387 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:42,160 compare compare side by side those those bases, and that's what where gear Sets 388 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,319 started, being able to compare what's in a sandbox environment versus what's in a 389 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,559 production environment, which can drift dramatically in Salesforce developments. That's that's kind of 390 00:31:52,599 --> 00:32:00,079 the journey. And through so our CEO is and stuffware engineering background CPOs or 391 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:05,519 engineup our background. Really our company has grown from software development best practices is 392 00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:08,720 Anyway, I think that's where Gear said is kind of set apart from our 393 00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:15,960 competitors in this place, is we are really best peraps engineering first and making 394 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:21,839 lives Salesforce developers, Salesforce administrative, Salesforce architects, Salesforce DevOps engineers, all 395 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:30,720 those people's lives better. Awesome. Oh one other questions I have before I 396 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:37,720 ask, well, getting ahead of myself, if anybody listening is interested in 397 00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:43,279 learning to do Salesforce development, do you have any suggestions or support or direction 398 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,680 tips for them to consider. Yeah. So, the great thing about Salesforce 399 00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:54,039 and Salesforce development in particular is anybody can learn it, and anybody can learn 400 00:32:54,079 --> 00:33:01,799 it for free. So Salesforce have this amazing it's like an academy if you 401 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,920 like. So it's called Trailhead. So Trailhead is a learning platform for any 402 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,039 Salesforce professional which will allow you to go and learn the basis of Salesforce, 403 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:16,920 teach you how to code apex for Salesforce. You can, you can go 404 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,079 and you can it's all self learning. Trailhead dot com create free account. 405 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,480 You know that there's mascots and fund trails and they give you you get your 406 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,519 own environments to build all of these things in and you can learn so much 407 00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:32,839 about the platform. So if you're interested in Salesforce development from what Salesforce is 408 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:39,079 used for and the hundreds of applications that you can that you can apply to 409 00:33:39,079 --> 00:33:44,000 to the business, then Trailhead is definitely the place to go. If you're 410 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:51,920 interested in Salesforce DevOps and how that is different in comparing to to what you 411 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,400 what you currently do or getting best development practices, then DevOps launchpad dot com 412 00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:00,960 is the place to go. So caveat that is a platform the gear Set 413 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:05,960 created as well as our learning platform. However, is it is agnostic, 414 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:09,400 so it is all about Salesforce develops and the different different flavors of that and 415 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,559 what's involved. Yes, of course there's your gear set courses on how to 416 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:16,400 use a gear set product on there, but the learning journey is super agnostic 417 00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:22,159 when when it comes to learning versus control best practices and things like that for 418 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,559 the platform. But yeah, trail anybody can go and learn, learn Salesforce 419 00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:30,159 and develop on Salesforce with trail h platform. And it's often it's one of 420 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:36,559 those things that Salesforce is an incredible, incredible platform because it's because because of 421 00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:40,840 that low barriers and entity to learn salesforce and that clicks not code mentality, 422 00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:47,880 so many people from every different background can can get involved. So folks from 423 00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:53,440 underrepresented groups and things like that have a free platform that they can use to 424 00:34:53,480 --> 00:35:00,400 start a career in tech and like routinely changes changes people's life. So there's 425 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:06,920 a number of great nonprofit organizations out there like pep up Tech or Maribus for 426 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:13,000 for veterans that have learning programs dedicated to salesforce to give give people that that 427 00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:17,559 leg up into technology salesforces. Salesforce is a guidance and guidance evaluation of thirty 428 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:21,880 six billion or something that as a company for the for the next year, 429 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:28,320 and the ecosystem around that will be many many, many, many many billions. 430 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,159 So it's it's it's it's an industry where there there's a lot of money 431 00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:36,480 to be made and there's a lot a lot to go around, and you 432 00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:42,199 can start start a career in salesforce fairly easily. It will take will take 433 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,320 drive and determination if folks aren't aren't already in in that space. Because it 434 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,840 is competitive and a lot of people career transitioning, they see it as this 435 00:35:52,199 --> 00:35:54,320 can see it as a golden ticket, I guess. But with bit of 436 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,519 determination and hard work, all the resources out there, you just got to 437 00:35:58,519 --> 00:36:02,760 go and get it awesome. Is there anything else that I should ask you 438 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,880 about or anything important that I that we should discuss that I that I haven't 439 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:14,840 before we move towards the end of the program. It's it's all. It's 440 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,480 it's all important, I think. I think for the biggest thing for for 441 00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:27,480 folks either either looking at Salesforce and think about Salesforce, Salesforce develops like in 442 00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:31,679 particular life, there is Salesforce DevOps is a challenge. So I would I 443 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:38,840 would encourage anybody that's listening to the podcast or two to take a look at 444 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,320 Salesforce DevOps and I think there is there is There is probably probably a gap 445 00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:52,920 for Salesforce DevOps specific engineers and people with a really good DevOps background two to 446 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:57,840 go in and and learn a little bit more about Salesforce and then help help 447 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,800 the team transform transform that they're doing internally. With that little bit of understanding. 448 00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:06,199 There will be frustrations because of the way the Salesforce works and some of 449 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,239 some of the API limitations and things like that. However, that and the 450 00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:16,480 methodology wise, I think there there is generally a gap for in larger enterprises, 451 00:37:16,519 --> 00:37:20,760 you're going to see both with that kind of knowledge anyway, and a 452 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:27,559 lot of like previously previously and working working here have done liaison with internal DevOps 453 00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:30,079 teams that don't understand why things have to be done a certain way in Salesforce, 454 00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:35,199 and you know that that relationship management is is really important when you think 455 00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:40,199 about think about debuts for Salesforce, but like things like implementing robust testing, 456 00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:46,280 so not just not just the testing that Salesforce makes makes you do. Some 457 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:52,239 Salesforce has uh testing, you have to test written for all your custom code 458 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:57,239 and have to code coverage about a certain percentage and things like that. So 459 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,519 it's like managtory testing and Salesforce. But the more that you can do in 460 00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:07,719 terms of setting up a robust testing strategy for security and load testing and testing 461 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,199 that make sure but you're functional testing and the user regression testing and things like 462 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,440 that, those things and how that's importanated into the process and where those kind 463 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,280 of things start and you know best practices it can be taken from software development 464 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,480 and applied to a Salesforce team. Can be really powerful, especially if you 465 00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:30,039 have this. It's not uncommon to see three or four teams working on salesforce 466 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,719 and they all have different processes, so being able to unify and government processes 467 00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:42,400 is really important. So there is there are challenges in in the salesforce space 468 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,800 I think can be solved by develops engineers from from a traditional background, if 469 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,960 you will. So it's really interesting. It's not great. It's not for 470 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,800 everybody, not for everybody for sure, but there are a lot of interesting 471 00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,239 challenges and a lot of a lot of things that can be solved by quite 472 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:06,599 driven, driven driven people in this place, for sure. Cool. Well, 473 00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:08,400 Jack, how can people are get in touch with you? Are you 474 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,199 on social media? Obviously? Have a podcast? There's your chance to tell 475 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,760 us all the all the places where you live on the internet. Yes, 476 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,599 sure, so you can hear more of my voice, actually probably slightly less 477 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:22,960 less of my voice. I should let the guests do the talk, a 478 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,480 lot of the talking. And it's just that the shoes been on the other 479 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,960 foot today, which is which is quite strange. My podcast or gear sets 480 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:37,320 podcast DevOps Stories, which my host is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. 481 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:40,960 All those good places, exciting Times is a recently rehabb the format, and 482 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,000 then have done recorded a few video episodes on YouTube as well. You'll be 483 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,039 able to see that on the Gearset YouTube channel. But yeah, debups ditories. 484 00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,639 I talk a lot about salesforce develops in particular with my guests, but 485 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:58,360 I also have guests come on and talk about cultural changes and things like that 486 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,880 as well, talking about their kind of career journeys and burnout, mental health 487 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,800 and all those kind of things are featured on the podcast as well, all 488 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,719 the things that I think can contribute towards improving for sure. You can find 489 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,880 me on on x or on Twitter if you like it so underscore j x 490 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,559 C k n c C providing Elon hasn't burned it down in the next couple 491 00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:27,880 of weeks with its new valuation that came out today, which is how the 492 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,760 Bloody bought it for and you can find me on LinkedIn as well, posted 493 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:37,760 a lot on across Twitter and LinkedIn. Awesome, well, Jack, thanks 494 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,320 for coming on. I feel like i' learned quite a bit. One last 495 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,239 thing before we in the program. On this show, we like to do 496 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,920 picks, So I don't know if you have anything you want to pick. 497 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,719 I have one thing I will pick. Uh, do you want to go 498 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,880 first or do you want me too? You go first, I'll go first. 499 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,920 Okay, So I'm going to pick a book. I listen to the 500 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,719 audio format. It's called The Art of Action. How Leaders Close the gaps 501 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,800 between plans, actions and results. And it was a really fascinating book. 502 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:15,159 It's it's about, well, how do I say what it's about. It's 503 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:21,039 sort of some case studies dating back to pre World War One military operations and 504 00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:24,960 how they can apply to business with regard to sort of a bias for action 505 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:30,639 or how we how we can interact, how we can well, as the 506 00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:34,880 subtitle says, bridge the gap between plans, actions and results. So it's 507 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,840 it's kind of the antidote in a sense, or one possible antidote to the 508 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:44,880 strict, top down hierarchy approach that you know, Taylorism may be promoted. 509 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,800 So it really ties in with, uh, the the ideology of agile and 510 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,679 DevOps and all this sort of stuff, which is why I'm bringing up on 511 00:41:53,679 --> 00:41:58,199 the show. So it's it's a it's an interesting book. If you like 512 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,519 history, uh andy like business, this is the perfect book because it really 513 00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:05,719 ties those two together for you. So that's my pick for the week. 514 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,039 The Art of Action by Stephen Bungay. I think is how you say his 515 00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:15,000 name, So that's my pick. Cool. I am gonna take a take 516 00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:19,760 a little bit of a different angles, So my pick is going to be 517 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,800 actually, what I watched on Netflix last night. So I watched I watched 518 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:31,280 Pain Hustlers on Netflix last night. I thought it was fantastic. So Pain 519 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:42,960 Hustlers is based on the true story of a company's rise of rise whilst selling 520 00:42:43,119 --> 00:42:52,199 a Sentinel Sentinel spray and how their business practices contributed to the opioid crisis in 521 00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:57,559 in the United States. I think the best way I can kind of describe 522 00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:04,800 it is it's a hone down version of the Wolf and Wall Street by the 523 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,800 toneedown version of Wolf and Wall Street. But it's shot really well. The 524 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:15,840 into interpersonal relationships in that in that movie you are fantastic and there's some really 525 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,000 great acting. It's directed by David Yates. So if you're a Harry Potter 526 00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:23,000 fan, I like what you did with that. This is a certainly more 527 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:30,679 grounded and based version of of his his way of storytelling, which I thought 528 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:35,320 was really excellent. So Yeah, Pain Hustlers on Netflix with t out of 529 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,519 ten. I'll check it out. What's a good Thanks Jack, it's better 530 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:40,320 a pleasure. Hope to chat to you again soon. Donan, thanks for 531 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,119 having me. Thanks everybody, Yours