WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:06.719 In this episode, we have a special guest, the Reverend doctor Angela Yarber. 2 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:12.519 You know when I hear RIV, I don't think, I think, 3 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:19.839 oh my god, chure, Yeah I feel that. Yeah right. Angela's 4 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:24.760 spiritual journey is so interesting. It's not at all threatening. So nobody be 5 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:29.079 scared. Do not turn off the podcast. It is gonna be a great 6 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.479 interview of promise. Yes. Plus, she has an amazing cool new book 7 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:37.640 called Queering the American Dream, and we're going to talk all about it. 8 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:43.439 Yes, yeah, so super queer friendly, not scary religious, just putting 9 00:00:43.479 --> 00:00:47.320 that out there. I'm pretty sure we will not discuss fire and brimstone. 10 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:54.799 Not a thing unless we're gonna roast marshmallows some morse. I do all about 11 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:58.719 that fire and brimstone. Well, maybe that's awaiting us in our afterlife. 12 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:00.759 Some moors for everybody of it. Okay, help me in. Why don't 13 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.920 we take a quick break and get to the interview. Let's go all right, 14 00:01:03.959 --> 00:01:12.319 be right back. Hey, everybody, welcome to Latter Day Lesbian, 15 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:15.799 the podcast about an ex Mormon gay girl just trying to figure out her life. 16 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:21.200 My name is Mary, my name is Shelley. So Shelley we have 17 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:26.120 a special guest today. We do. Yeah, this is so cool. 18 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.799 I'm not I can't even quite remember how we were turned on to Yeah, 19 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.719 weird wording turned on by Angela just can't turn on to Angela. Sorry, 20 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:38.640 Angela, you're gonna have to deal with us. We can't mean it's we 21 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:42.359 really can't. But uh, I don't know, It's just it just seemed 22 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.200 like such an interesting story that I was like, we should have her at 23 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.599 So, yeah, I'm going to introduce the Reverend doctor Angela Yarbor, and 24 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:52.159 I'm gonna go ahead and read her bio that I picked up on LinkedIn and 25 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.560 we were talking earlier, and she's like, um, I think that's right. 26 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:57.280 I don't know. We're gonna give it a shot, okay. So 27 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.599 Angela Yarbor is no award winning author and artist. She's the executive director of 28 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:09.120 The Holy Women Icon's Project, a nonprofit seeking to empower marginalized women by telling 29 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:15.840 the stories of revolutionary Holy women through art, writing, and special events. 30 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:21.360 Through the nonprofit, she leads retreats in addition to offering art exhibits, workshops, 31 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:25.120 lectures, and dynamic public speaking around the world. She was a pastor 32 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:31.000 for fourteen years and continues to consult with churches on queering worship, preaching, 33 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:35.879 and spirituality. And we're going to circle back to queering worship because I want 34 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:38.960 to know more about that. She was a professor for Women's Gender and Sexual 35 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:44.919 Studies and Divinity School professor for over a decade. Her painting, writing and 36 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:51.120 work has been featured on NPR's Progressive Spirit, Maya Angelou's Memorial Celebration, and 37 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:55.560 the television show Tiny House Nation. That's really interesting. She is the author 38 00:02:55.560 --> 00:03:00.240 of seven books, four of which have been included in the top lgbt Q 39 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:06.080 Christian books of their respective publication years. Whether it's painting, writing, leading 40 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:09.919 retreats, or public speaking, her work endeavors to inspire and empower, offering 41 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:16.639 beautiful hope and creative justice in the midst of systems designed to disenfranchise and oppress 42 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:23.800 the marginalized. Nice up, give it up. Welcome, Reverend doctor Angela 43 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.439 Yarbor. Thank you for being here, Thanks for having me. I appreciate 44 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:31.280 it. That's quite the intro it is. I'm realizing that's a long bio 45 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:36.919 there on LinkedIn. I'm realizing that I need to update some of that are 46 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:43.000 the title of our nonprofit has shifted to the Tahome Center t h oh Am 47 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.000 since I posted that, So that's a good reminder to stay on top of 48 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:50.080 all the things that need updating. That's right, But it's still the same 49 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.599 project during the same work, just called the Tahome Center now rather than the 50 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:58.199 Holy Women Icons Project. What is tahome refer to? Oh? To home 51 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.759 is a Hebrew word that means deep or depths, and it's I won't go 52 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:08.439 into the whole long etymology of the word, but it's the word used in 53 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:13.240 the Genesis Account for Jews and Christians out of the depths God creates. And 54 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:17.240 it's this feminine term for the watery chaos or the depths, syncretized with the 55 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:23.040 Tiamat, which is a Babylonian creation goddess. So all this like queer, 56 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:28.399 feminist Wiley stuff is embedded in that one word. Very cool. Yeah, 57 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:35.759 well she's got some weird watery depths going pretty sure. Ge Well she gave 58 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.920 birth to seven children. Oh oh yeah, yeah, I could do that. 59 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:43.040 I told you I was a Mormon. I mean, what do you 60 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.120 do excepts at home and have babies? Yeah, what are the ranges of 61 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:51.800 your your kiddos their ages. The oldest is twenty two, the one that 62 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:55.199 disappoints my dad, like I was telling you, because he lives with his 63 00:04:55.279 --> 00:05:00.240 girlfriend. And then the youngest is about to turn nine. Not fast enough. 64 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:02.639 Yeah, I got a lot of time till retirement. Unfortunately. My 65 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:06.560 oldest is eight, so same age, and then my youngest is four. 66 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:12.759 Yeah. Oh you're hating it. You're hating hard right now. Oh yeah, 67 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.199 I love them so much, and it's so hard. It's so hard, 68 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.680 especially when you're trying to like queer parenting and subvert the status quo with 69 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:27.480 everything about families that makes it's wonderful and good and challenging. Yeah, you 70 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.319 can't just turn them loose to the system. And I don't mean that in 71 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:34.639 like an anti system way, but just I feel like they need more, 72 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:39.839 They need more shown to them than what still is just out there in the 73 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:42.639 world teaching them about families and life. And yeah, no, I'm with 74 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.839 you on that for sure. Yeah, and don't just default to bullying, 75 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:49.600 because that's I feel like middle school, I mean even elementary school to a 76 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:55.319 degree, but definitely middle school in high school is so fraught with that need 77 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.079 to fit in. You're just looking on the kid that's weaker than need to 78 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:01.279 pick up everyone. It's just this instinct that we all have. It might 79 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.240 be in little ways. For oldest is eight, don't freak her out. 80 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:12.959 Hey, Angela gets worse. Okay, that's trying to say, buckle up, 81 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:16.319 Angela. That's interesting. Mary and I were having a conversation yesterday. 82 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.959 She's never had kids, never been involved in like kids stuff, really, 83 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:25.519 and so me having all these kids, it's difficult and it's difficult for me 84 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.040 too. And she's asked me, and it was yesterday like, how do 85 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:30.759 you do it? Aren't you just exhausted and crazy? And not my time? 86 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.199 I am. However, I look back to the years where they were 87 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:38.160 all younger, like where you are right now, Angela, and I'm like, 88 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:42.000 oh, I know, it could be so much worse. I've been 89 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:45.519 through the worst. Yeah, I feel like we've just gotten out of some 90 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:49.839 of the really tough times and ages because now everyone can like feed themselves, 91 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:56.439 they can go to the bathroom by themselves. That's huge. Those things really 92 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:00.079 make a big difference. Yeah, So I'm grateful for that and our process 93 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:06.160 of becoming a family and foster care systems and adoption and unjust policies and all 94 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:13.680 of that have made becoming a family with children really hard, and so I'm 95 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:19.800 grateful and raging and tired at the same time. Oh yeah, yeah, 96 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.319 I'm sure. I was actually looking in some articles as far as like, 97 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:28.639 when did it become I guess legal, sure, legal for a gay couple 98 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.199 or anything outside the norm to adopt children, And it's been relatively recent that 99 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.560 it's even allowed. For the longest time, they couldn't adopt if they weren't 100 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:40.839 married, and of course marriage was illegal for anyone except for straight folks. 101 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:44.920 So I know this has nothing to do with your book, but well it 102 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.040 does. It's interesting to me. How was it, How was it for 103 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.279 you adopting, because you just said there's struggles there. So for my son, 104 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:56.319 who is eight, we did an open adoption, which meant that we 105 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:00.759 connected with his birth mother during pregnancy, and she's aw and is a huge 106 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:05.079 part of our lives still, and so is his birth father. But we 107 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:07.279 had done all of the adoption, home study, case study, all of 108 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.319 that stuff in my name when I was a pastor, and then that job 109 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:13.920 became really toxic. And this is all a part of the book. Wearing 110 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.319 the American Dream, so it ties in, but the job became really toxic, 111 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.399 so I ended up quitting and then called my adoption agency, who is 112 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.920 their agency is the oldest with working with same sex couples in the entire country, 113 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.800 and so they get it. And on the one hand they're like, 114 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:33.679 well, we're glad that you're honoring who you are and all this, And 115 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.960 what this looks like legally is that a single person with a stranger living in 116 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.480 her home, who doesn't have a job, is trying to adopt a child. 117 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.720 So we had to do the world's fastest home study for my wife instead 118 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.480 of me, so she was able to legally adopt him. I couldn't until 119 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.879 same sex marriage became legal, and then it costs like four thousand additional dollars 120 00:08:54.960 --> 00:09:00.159 and all of this extra invasive work. So that happened with our son, 121 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:03.360 and just a few years later, my daughter's only four and we adopted her 122 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:07.639 through foster care, and that came with a host of traumas and really invasive 123 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:13.080 homesteady interviews for us. But some of the first things that were said when 124 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.679 we went into court the judge, the first thing he said was that our 125 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.720 two year old was fat oh my god, and asked us what we had 126 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:24.600 been feeding her, and then made a joke about how complicated this was going 127 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.679 to be because there's no dad, why because it was my wife and I 128 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.360 and how he didn't know what to say. And normally I'm a person who 129 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.240 would offer corrective, who would say something or call someone in, but here 130 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.360 we are waiting to see if he's going to rule like in favor quote unquote 131 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:46.480 of us adopting our child. So we couldn't really say anything because of that 132 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:48.960 power dynamic. Yeah, you have to sit there while he beats on you 133 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.679 and says rude things, and it's like whatever you say, whatever you say, 134 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.960 because you want your child. Oh ass truly was he old and white? 135 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.440 I'm just throwing that out, yes, And this was in this was 136 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.440 in Hawaii. So in Hawaii, like if you're white, you're called a 137 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.399 hawe yes, And the essence of being a halle is also being kind of 138 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.960 like a dumb holle. And so he encapsulated the essence of what that word 139 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:16.000 means in every possible way. And I just remember us and our social worker 140 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:20.919 and our attorney all looking at each other like with our eyes enormously why thinking 141 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:26.679 what on earth is wow ass hat saying? And how does he get to 142 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:31.039 make family decisions? Like exactly how is even allowed to talk to people's right 143 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.480 like, oh, I'm so sorry? How old was your daughter? And 144 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:37.200 was she in the room? She was in the room, and so is 145 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.039 my son? Did they hear that? They did? I don't know if 146 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.320 they quite registered it. And at that point, my son, I think, 147 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:52.080 had experienced a couple negative things from kids who you know, didn't understand 148 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.720 that you could have a two mom family and said, oh, that's gross 149 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.759 or something like that. But on the whole, my kids have had pretty 150 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:03.120 good experiences around that kind of thing, and that's part of because of the 151 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:07.919 people that we've chosen to surround ourselves with. Yes, yeah, so we 152 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.240 feel really really lucky about the chosen family, the o'hana that we've created. 153 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:16.399 Yeah, how long ago was it that you were in the courthouse with your 154 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.799 two year old daughter and this guy said those horrible things? Oh it was 155 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.879 only two and a half years ago. Yeah, so it's not like it's 156 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.960 nineteen fifty seven. People, get your shit together, come on, truly, 157 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:33.639 truly, And what's infuriating is that so many times if you were to 158 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.600 share that story. A lot of straight folks would say, oh, well, 159 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:39.080 you know, oh, no big deal, it's right, you know, 160 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.919 it's just one comment. But the thing is, and that's not even 161 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.080 a microaggression, but it's an example of these little underhanded slights that happen all 162 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:52.399 the time, and they're like death by a thousand paper cuts, absolutely, 163 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.279 you know, and you don't really know how to defend yourself against those kinds 164 00:11:56.279 --> 00:12:01.279 of things because you're you're stuck wondering, like this guy really say that? 165 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:07.879 Yes, man, I'm so sorry, And you know you're right about straight 166 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:09.639 people, wouldn't. I mean, the straight people might feel bad for you, 167 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:13.840 but whatever, it's not their problem. But it is the straight people. 168 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:16.279 I think they need to stand up and call out these howlies and be 169 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.720 like, hey, man, no, because he's not he's not going to 170 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.679 care if you say it. He obviously doesn't respect you anyway, So it 171 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:28.000 needs to be his peers. I don't know exactly exactly, And they were 172 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.039 all in a weird power dynamic too, because you know, they were the 173 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:35.159 social workers and the attorneys, and ultimately he was the one who you know, 174 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:39.559 got to make that decision. But nevertheless, my daughter is with us. 175 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.200 Yay, safe and well, so good. I'll count that as a 176 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.879 win. But but yet another example of how we have to actively queer what 177 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:52.000 it means to be family, to queer what it means to be pretty much 178 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.559 anything these days, because the self is at odds with everything around it. 179 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.960 Yes, well that is kind of a good segue because I kind of feel 180 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:03.759 like we're burying the lead here. It just got so good. I couldn't 181 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.759 help. Mary's always like the lead. And I'm also talk about this the 182 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:13.720 judge. I mean, we're here ultimately to discuss Angela's new book called Queering 183 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.000 the American Dream. Yeah, Mary needs to read some ship that we can 184 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.120 go back to talking. Mean you okay, Angela? Mary, so you 185 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.759 keep using that. It's so great. It's like queering this queering that is 186 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:26.720 that? Would that be an adjective at that point? Yes, right, 187 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:33.360 that's a verb? Okay, dr Yeah, I feel like we're all losing 188 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.440 the English language as we know it. Let's let me just text an emoji 189 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.360 to convey all of my emotions, the queer flag, and we know we 190 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:48.679 need do you say any actual words? Well, what's interesting is that, 191 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.360 like you know, queer can be used in so many different ways. But 192 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.879 the queering I think of that quote of the Late Bell Hooks where she said, 193 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:00.200 I don't want to mess up the quote, but the essence of it 194 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:05.039 was queer, not so much as who it is that you're sleeping with, 195 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.639 though that can be a part of it, but queer as the self that 196 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.039 is at odds with everything that is around it. And then you have to 197 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:16.279 create and invent and imagine places to survive and thrive. And so I think 198 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:22.960 in that way, queering obviously applies to everyone in the LGBTQIA plus alphabet soup 199 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.480 community, but it also applies to others who are at odds with everything that 200 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.080 is around us. And when the self is at odds, I believe, 201 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.279 like in my book and Queering the American Dream, when the self is at 202 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:39.519 odds with this farce of a dream where we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps 203 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.919 and slap on a good Southern woman smile, you know, and make our 204 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:48.679 own dream like that, when all the systems are designed to disenfranchise you, 205 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.120 it just doesn't work right, and so we have to subvert and overturn and 206 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.960 dismantle and ultimately queer that dream. So that it's expansive enough for everyone. 207 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.639 I love that. Well, before we get into the book, let's go 208 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:05.799 let's go back a little bit and talk about you. Our listeners are probably 209 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.200 like, way, mate, who is this person and it's a friend we're 210 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.440 chatting with and having coffee in the morning. It doesn't feel like that. 211 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.440 Yeah, that's kind of how we roll. Okay, So let's back up 212 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.759 before you were a reverend or a doctor. Let's just talk about Angela for 213 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:28.000 a minute. I'd love to hear about your background. You did not grow 214 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.360 up religious, is that correct? Right? Okay, it's correct. You 215 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:37.080 chose that at some point. WHOA, why did you just throw that down? 216 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.320 Let's hear more about that. Because you identify as queer, that's right, 217 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.440 and you're married to a woman, that's right. Okay, So let's 218 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:52.720 hear about that story, your journey to becoming ordained. So I don't come 219 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.039 from a religious family, although I did grow up in the Southeast and so 220 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.960 I was in the Bible Belt. It was present and everything that we did. 221 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:03.120 Because as when I was living in a government subsidized living place, there 222 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.639 was like a van that came and pick up kids and brought them to vacation 223 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:12.720 Bible school. So I had that like evangelical quote unquote saved experience. Because 224 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:17.320 of that, I could sing vacation Bible songs with you all day long. 225 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:22.919 You know, deep and what deep and what? I'm a fountain flowing deep. 226 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:29.120 Y'all sound weird. Oh, there's so many, this little light of 227 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.159 mine, I'm gonna let it. You know that one too, I'm sure, 228 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:37.399 of course. Abraham head Man, he's on Man's on Sarah. There's 229 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:45.799 so many. Mother and the concubine. Don't forget the concubine and the bastard 230 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:51.080 child, the bastard child who founded Islam. Wait, that's not it's not 231 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:56.279 a left those parts out, sure, exactly exactly. Y'all had to be 232 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.440 the patriarchs. No patriarchs present, that's right. So I wasn't raised in 233 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:07.160 a religious home, working poor family, and had this plan as a high 234 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.519 schooler to go into the performing arts, and I did end up being a 235 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:15.359 professional dancer for a number of years while simultaneously being clergy. So wow, 236 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:21.799 the dancing reverend. Truly, I'm assuming it was not exotic dancing. It 237 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.359 could be role dancing. No, there's lots of money to be made there, 238 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.839 but whatever that's true. They passed the play. They passed the play 239 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:34.680 the plate. Now that sounds like a very subversive liturgy. I kind of 240 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:41.839 want to design that absolutely. So I ended up going to this conservative though 241 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.960 I didn't know that at the time because I didn't know anything about Christianity, 242 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:49.759 this conservative Christian church because they had a rock climbing wall and I was interested 243 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.240 in rock climbing. So they kind of like hooked, you know, teenagers, 244 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:56.400 and that's a good one. And in that I had a really conservative 245 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:04.039 religious experience that I called Jesus is my boyfriend, and so I did that 246 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:10.160 where I kind of fell in love with Jesus. My sister was in love 247 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.160 with Jesus, and one of your girlfriends was, and that's why you lost 248 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.599 her. I did lose a girl to Jesus. Yep. And at that 249 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.680 point I wasn't out to myself or to anyone else. I didn't even have 250 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.680 the framework. How old were you, I'm sorry, I was sixteen seventeen. 251 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.960 So instead of planning on heading to Juilliard and you know, creating a 252 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.799 life on the performing arts, it was this pivotal time in my life where 253 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.519 the ministers at that church sat me down and said, the performing arts, 254 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.799 the arts, those bring glory to you and not to God. Do them? 255 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.720 So yes, I ended up going to a small liberal arts college that 256 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:55.160 was associated with Baptists, but luckily the religion department there was moderate, so 257 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.960 I wouldn't say progressive. One of them was progressive. They kind of pulled 258 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.720 me aside and said, you know, this version of Christianity that was handed 259 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.279 to you, that's not the only version. There are lots of different versions 260 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:08.000 and lots of different ways to be a person of faith. I ended up 261 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:14.000 becoming the youth minister at his church where his children were youth at the ripe 262 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.079 age of eighteen, so wise to be a youth minister then. And they 263 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.000 also said, you know, we don't know anything about dance or the arts, 264 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:23.359 or that's not our thing. But if those are your skills and your 265 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.839 talents and your loves, and you also have this love for faith, why 266 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.319 don't you put the two together. So that started this long journey for me 267 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:34.200 of looking at the connections between the arts and dance, believe it or not, 268 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.680 which has a very rich history in the Christian tradition, but that's completely 269 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:45.599 erased strategically erased by most people in power right, And so through that process 270 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.359 I ended up becoming ordained, going to seminary, and then going to do 271 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:53.119 a PhD. But all along the way I realized in my preaching and serving 272 00:19:53.200 --> 00:20:00.200 churches that my language was really shifting from I believe to we believe to the 273 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:06.480 Christian tradition teaches us. Because my own theology was morphing from a theology more 274 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:11.720 to a philosophy, especially as I explored more of goddess traditions from around the 275 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.400 world and interfaith dialogue. And so that's more where I reside now. I'm 276 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.599 still ordained, but I say I hold my ordination with an open hand, 277 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:23.119 so it could be revoked. But no one has tried to do that yet. 278 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.160 Oh so that's a thing they could just say, like, nope, 279 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.480 we're going to take that away from you. It could be, but because 280 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:34.480 there is not a centralized hierarchy in the Baptist Church, it makes it a 281 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:40.160 bit more complicated because you're ordained by a particular faith community, and so that 282 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:45.359 particular faith community, we need to gather together the twelve men who served on 283 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:51.039 my ordination council and have them called together their own I don't know synod of 284 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:55.319 sorts to say that they should revoke my ordination, and I do have clergy 285 00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:00.279 who have since renounced their ordination, and I've toyed with that idea, But 286 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.079 instead I think of the myriad queer women who have come before me and who 287 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:08.240 are still seeing me, who've never seen a representation like that, And so 288 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:12.400 I choose to keep it kind of on behalf of the communities that I represent, 289 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.559 and see that as really important. Yeah. Yeah, well, in 290 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.160 Mormonism, you don't have to be ordained at all, but you can lead 291 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.680 a congregation. Well you got to be a man. Oh well, of 292 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.920 course you have to be a man, but yeah, you could be like 293 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.240 a local plumber or electrician or something like, Hey, you look like you 294 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:32.480 could lead this entire congregation. You're you're in charge, quite realize, Oh 295 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:34.880 yeah, there it's um. Oh no, it's a calling from God. 296 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:37.759 Yes, let's not forget that. Yeah. No one has to go to 297 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.240 like preacher school. You just preach your school, random guy, and they 298 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.799 need seminary. They lead someone to lead a congregation, so they're like, 299 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.920 oh God wants you. You don't get paid or anything. You just have 300 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.000 to give all your time, and the bishop can be a dentist, a 301 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.359 plumber, whatever, and then he, somehow, because God's mantle is now 302 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.160 on him, has the ability to counsel people. Yeah, that's so crazy. 303 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.680 Seriously. Okay, yeah, it's like getting the worst therapy of your 304 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:07.079 life and you think that you think that what he's saying is from God talking 305 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:11.559 about screwing people up. Yeah, it's horrible practice. Well, and I 306 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.200 feel like I knew that about the role of bishops, but I assumed that 307 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.799 it functioned like it does in most denominations where they had a training. No. 308 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:25.200 No, the bishop's training is basically here's the manual, which means like, 309 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.680 here's here's the punishments you dole out. Like I remember, I know 310 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.759 it's not about me, but when I was sixteen, I had had sex 311 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.960 with my boyfriend and so I went into the bishop with all the guilt and 312 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:38.599 shame and told what had happened. And he literally got the handbook from his 313 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.400 shelf, set it down. It was like he was going, let see 314 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:47.839 for anication, for anication. Okay, you yeah, you are this fellowship 315 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:51.640 for six months. You cannot take the sacrament. You need to come in 316 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.559 and meet with me as it. There was no like say three Hail Mary's. 317 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:00.799 Yeah, and our father and most Mormon, I'm gonna say most when 318 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.960 they go into their bishop, it's like they're looking for spiritual guidance and family 319 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.200 guidance. And these guys have no clue. They're just like, oh, 320 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.519 well, you know, and it's their opinions. Well, if you would 321 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.799 be intimate with your husband more than he would treat you better. I mean, 322 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:21.240 I've heard horror stories. Oh so predatory, isn't it. Yes, 323 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.920 yeah, so, Shelly, this sounds like a good time for a break. 324 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:33.279 I agree. We'll be right back. We are back anyway. Now 325 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.680 I'm not the guest being interviewed, but I haven't put that out there. 326 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.359 Back to you, Angela, back to our guests. Yeah, So how 327 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.880 old were you when you went through seminary, became ordained around that time, 328 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.759 and then when did you kind of back out slowly? Well, I was 329 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:53.119 only twenty two when I was ordained, So I was in seminary from age 330 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.839 twenty two to you know, for three years, so till twenty five, 331 00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:00.720 and then started my PhD. So I was really young. I went directly 332 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.240 from high school to college to seminary to PhD program and then finished all that 333 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:11.000 at twenty nine. You like school, Yes, I do. It occupied 334 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.279 all of my twenties, and I do love learning still, but I'm glad 335 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.799 that I don't want to now I'm the professor who gets to take papers rather 336 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:22.039 than write the papers for someone else to grade. And I would say that 337 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:29.079 I started moving away even as I was being ordained, but it wasn't a 338 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.279 moving away at that point of faith. It was of even at the point 339 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:37.519 of ordination, I didn't have any traditional views, like my views were not 340 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:42.279 seen as orthodox, and I even remember talking about that on my ordination committee. 341 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:47.279 Because it was a relatively progressive group of people, A lot of their 342 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:53.519 ideas weren't orthodox either, and so believing things like Jesus was a revolutionary and 343 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.480 maybe not necessarily the son of God, those kind of things we're okay, 344 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.839 wow, right, Even the feminist theology side of things was affirmed by this 345 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.200 group of twelve men. That's pretty amazing, actually, yeah. But then 346 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:15.319 it kept moving farther and farther and farther to where I was wondering, well, 347 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.640 you know, I don't I don't know if there is a god doing 348 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:23.480 the calling, and I definitely believe Jesus was a historical figure and still today 349 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:29.720 quite the revolutionary who did a lot of subversive queer stuff. I wouldn't call 350 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.480 him a son of God because I don't know if there's a God who exists. 351 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.119 I think that we've constructed lots of versions of goddesses that I think are 352 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:42.599 very compelling and meaningful. But I also don't come down on a firm line 353 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.960 to say that I'm an atheist or an agnostic, because that's a little too 354 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.640 wishy washy, And then an atheist is a little too firm. So do 355 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:56.039 you check that spiritual but not religious bucks pretty much? Yes, I would 356 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.319 definitely do that. Yeah, I like it. I have such similar viewpoints 357 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.599 to you, and I love the idea of Jesus being queer. Let's just 358 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.200 go ahead and say he was, because like did he definitely? Was he 359 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:12.039 more into Mary Magdalen or was he more into John Beloved right right? Exactly 360 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:17.319 and exactly? And he raised Lazarus from the dead, so he must have 361 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:21.640 thought he was pretty special. I'm just saying exactly, but I agree completely, 362 00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.759 and so many of the things that he did fall into this category of 363 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:30.799 queering the self that is at odds with everything around it, and so flipping 364 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:36.599 over tables and being friends with the outcasts and the tax collectors and sex workers 365 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:41.759 like those weren't everyday ordinary things that rabbis did, though there are plenty of 366 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:47.640 fabulous rabbis today to do. But at that time, you know, this 367 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.440 was quite subversive. And in that way, I would use the term queering 368 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.079 almost almost hand in hand with the term subversive, And in that way, 369 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:59.119 I do think that Jesus as a person, as a historical figure was very 370 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:03.920 subversive. Sure, I love that people, and I'm just learning this, 371 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:10.079 it's actually okay to take the version of Jesus that you were taught in some 372 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:15.240 of these hardcore religions and still like have a love for Jesus, but an 373 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:21.119 understanding of who he was not, you know, because it was hard for 374 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:25.519 me leaving Mormonism because I had this, I had this connection to Jesus just 375 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:29.519 because like that's when you're raised in Jesus and the Manger and he loves you 376 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:33.319 and blah blah. So when I left Mormonism was hard to kind of like 377 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.400 toss Jesus. But the more I thought about how I was raised, who 378 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:38.920 Jesus was yeah, I'm like, hit the door Jesus, you know, 379 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.599 God's son and blahl, Like the whole thing was just this ugly, patriarchal, 380 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:47.839 growdy thing to me. But now like listening to you talking about no, 381 00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:49.720 Jesus, he was a rebel, you know, and he hung out 382 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:53.359 with these people, probably wasn't even the son of God. Like that sits 383 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:59.519 nicely with me to still have that person in my mind of someone to be. 384 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.279 I think about the cool stuff that he did, but get rid of 385 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.000 the guilt and shame that he died for my sins and every time my sin 386 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.039 he cries, and you know, all that horrible stuff. So yeah, 387 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.960 wait, you don't believe Jesus was a demigod whose celestial father had sex with 388 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.359 a teenager to create him. You don't believe all that was right and that 389 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:23.079 was hard. I love Jesus, but story I don't like. I love 390 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:27.519 Jesus, but the rape path? Why do we believe that? Why do 391 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.839 any of us believe that? It doesn't even make sense to me what you 392 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.000 have bought that? And in Mormonism, if I were to go in for 393 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.920 my worthiness interview, which is basically, if I can get a temple recommend, 394 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.559 which means I can go to the temple, which means I could be 395 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:42.039 saved. So if I don't do this, I don't get saved, I 396 00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:47.000 don't get my family. The plumber slash head of the church gets to interview 397 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:48.920 her and decide if she gets to be saved or not. Yes, so 398 00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.640 what exactly? And there's a list of questions and one of them is, 399 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:55.519 um, I'm misquoting it, but it's like, do you believe that Jesus 400 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.799 is the son of God? Blah blah blah. If I were to say 401 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.200 no, like I love Jesus blah blah, but I don't think he was 402 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.000 a literal son of God. Sorry, you can't go to the temple, 403 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:06.720 meaning you can't be saved, meaning when you die, you are separated from 404 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:10.799 your family, Like you have to have this exact version of Jesus. And 405 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.759 finally, like this realization, like I don't actually have to have their version 406 00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.640 of Jesus. And so I love hearing you say this, like this is 407 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:19.440 my version of Jesus and it kicks ass. I love that. Thank you 408 00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:25.119 for sharing that. Totally. I personally feel like we have all been taught 409 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:32.279 that Jesus is like a demigod because of ancient Greek and Roman mythology. It 410 00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:36.599 was fitting in with that whole mindset. Wasn't it Constantine that tried to get 411 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:41.160 everybody on the same page and change change the Holy Day to Sunday because that's 412 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:45.240 when the Pagans were worshiping, and he wanted everyone to let's all get along 413 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:51.799 here with our religions, oh and vote for me. Right. We never 414 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:56.640 see anything like that today, No, that would never happen. How did 415 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:02.480 queerness fit in to this whole old journey with the church and becoming ordained and 416 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:07.079 your belief in Jesus, etc. Well, I was not out to myself 417 00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:10.400 or to anyone else when I was ordained. In fact, at that point 418 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:15.559 I was engaged to marry a man along the way realized that's not going to 419 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.519 work, and it wasn't even because I quite realized that I was queer at 420 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.839 that point, even though I knew I wasn't super into him like sexually. 421 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:29.559 So instead of getting married on our what would have been our wedding day, 422 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:33.359 I spent I was in the Middle East doing research on interfaith dialogue. As 423 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.920 you do, Yeah, exactly. I think I was dancing with whirling Dervishes 424 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:42.039 in Syria around the time that I was supposed to be, you know, 425 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:49.200 walking down the aisle that's called Angela dodges a bullet. Yes, that's your 426 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.160 next book, by the way, you're welcome. Oh perfect, I love 427 00:30:52.200 --> 00:31:00.920 that a bullet and instead dances with the dervishes as you do, as you 428 00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:04.240 do. So I didn't end up coming out until I moved to Berkeley, 429 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.200 California. How cliche, that'll do it, and I met my wife there, 430 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:14.960 the person I'm still with today, and was doing my PhD and also 431 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:19.599 teaching where queerness was huge. This was at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, 432 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:25.920 which is associated with UC Berkeley, and a host of the seminaries attached 433 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:33.680 to it are either nondenominational or Unitarian Universalist or Disciples of Christ UCC more progressive 434 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:40.400 denominations where queerness is affirmed but not simply affirmed, but also like celebrated. 435 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:45.920 Yeah, and so a big number of my students identified as queer. It 436 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:52.000 was my first time with my knowledge encountering trans folks. I had never met 437 00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.079 anyone who was trans to my knowledge up until that point, and so being 438 00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:01.240 exposed to and learning about with gratitude and openness. The queer community also helped 439 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:07.440 me realize that the desires and yearnings of my own heart lived there as well. 440 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:12.319 And so even though I feel like it's super cliche that the girl from 441 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.920 Georgia moves to California and then comes out as queer, that was indeed my 442 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:22.680 experience. I think I saw that on a Hallmark movie. Was that was 443 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:28.720 the story one only recently? Right, it was just a flash Christmas. 444 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:30.519 Right. I was about to say, it's been like the past couple of 445 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:36.200 years where they're like, let's make queer holiday movies. Yes, was there 446 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:42.680 a reindeer out of a stable somewhere and the girlfriend had like a beautiful lab 447 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:46.079 puppy in that one together? And the old man who's the school custodian turns 448 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.519 out to be Santa. Yeah, sure, pretty sure that's how it went. 449 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:57.160 Yes, it was a big city of small town. Oh yeah, 450 00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:05.039 exactly. They're probably listening in and next year we're gonna sit down. Here's 451 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.720 the screw. I haven't done the school custodian angle yet. We'll have to 452 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:15.400 do that exactly, and we're like, where are royalty go to court? 453 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:21.359 I just know it, that's funny. I'm hoping we don't get that judge 454 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:27.079 that I have, right, I think we've gotten to the point in this 455 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.440 discussion where I want to entro your book unless there's something else to the book. 456 00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:34.240 I think we're finally to the book, unless there's something else you want 457 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.359 to discuss about your background and sort of how you got I mean, there's 458 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.720 so many questions. I mean, at what point did you start writing literature? 459 00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.559 It was during my PhD program because my first book ended up being my 460 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:52.920 dissertation, and so all of my previous books before this one, before Queering 461 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.519 the American Dream were academic books. Well, and then I had one coloring 462 00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:00.519 book because I'm an artist too, so that doesn't come It would be for 463 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:06.359 my children, yea Holy Women Icons contemplative coloring book. But prior to that 464 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.639 it was all academic publishing. So this is my first foray into memoir, 465 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.960 into commercial publishing. So this is really new for me, in a new 466 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.800 way of writing. I'm both really excited and thrilled about it, and a 467 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.039 little nervous too. Do you enjoy it though, I mean clearly, oh 468 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.760 yes, I love it. I do. I see it. I'm very 469 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:31.760 lucky that my jobs are painting and writing, and they're also my spiritual practices, 470 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:37.440 the methods of self care. And so I do sincerely pinch myself on 471 00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:42.119 a pretty regular basis that the things that I really love doing it to be 472 00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.440 my work. That's cool, that's awesome. Well, I was going to 473 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:50.039 read just a short blurb from near the beginning of the book. Please, 474 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:52.880 okay, Well, let's let's just dive into it. This is an excerpt 475 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:58.159 from Queering the American Dream. And there's a link in the show notes to 476 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.239 be able to order this book. And I'll repeat this at the end in 477 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:04.199 case anyone was like, where do I get that? Again? You have 478 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:08.000 to copy and paste the link into a browser window. Unfortunately, our podcast 479 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:12.079 host doesn't let you just click it just a little fyi there. People have 480 00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.559 been like, your link is not clickable, Like, I know, that's 481 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:20.760 unfortunate, But this excerpt says how in the hell did we get here? 482 00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:25.400 It should be just a travel memoir, not a eulogy. For eighteen months, 483 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:30.679 my wife, Toddler, and I roamed the country as my brother's addiction 484 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:37.360 morphed into a bigger and bigger beast. In this meandering travelation, nice word 485 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:43.679 turned a funeral narrative. The lives, legends and legacies of the revolutionary holy 486 00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:49.679 women I paint and write about were and continue to be my guides. They 487 00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.480 are how I survived this, and I believe they can help you survive and 488 00:35:53.639 --> 00:36:00.719 thrive too, no matter your grief or loss. So there's a lot going 489 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:06.760 on in that statement. You were traveling. You were traveling around the world 490 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.159 at that point, around the country, around the culture and the United States. 491 00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:13.440 Okay, and what was going on with your brother? So, my 492 00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:17.960 brother or my late brother he's since deceased, was an addict for a good 493 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.440 portion of his life, and at this point in time, he was addicted 494 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:27.599 to duster, which a lot of people aren't familiar with. It's when you 495 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.880 inhale computer duster. Yeah, anytime you do it, it's called sudden sniffing 496 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:37.199 syndrome. It can just cut off the connection between your brain and your body 497 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.559 and kill you anytime. So each time you do it is like a game 498 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:45.840 of Russian roulette. And at the beginning of our travels, we thought that 499 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:51.199 he was just struggling with something, but we didn't know what. And a 500 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:55.119 midway through our full time travel, we learned what it was and had never 501 00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:59.519 heard of that, and we're trying to get him into rehab. He didn't 502 00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.360 want to go to a faith based rehab, and all of the ones that 503 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:07.519 our family could afford are faith based and rooted in twelve step programs. Also 504 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:10.480 a lot of rehabs, when you go in, you have to test positive 505 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.400 or some kind of a drug or alcohol, and he can't because computer duster 506 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.920 doesn't make you test for anything, because it's not made to be a drug, 507 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.719 right, And so getting him treatment was incredibly challenging, and so we 508 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.840 left on this adventure the day the Supreme Court ruled our marriage legal, and 509 00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:36.360 for eighteen months, the intent was discernment, traversing the American landscape to see 510 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:39.599 where we might end up and plant roots to form this retreat center. But 511 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:44.800 along the way, because of my brother's addiction, it kind of enveloped what 512 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.360 we were experiencing, and so it was impossible for me not to experience the 513 00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:53.360 world and these travels and even these revolutionary women that were traveling alongside of me 514 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:59.239 in the forms of paintings, to not experience them through the lens of my 515 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.760 brother's addiction and then subsequent death from that addiction, and throughout it all he 516 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:09.840 ended up spending upwards of twenty thousand dollars on computer duster and essentially, you 517 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:15.159 know, dusted himself to death. Wow. Sorry, that's tragic. It 518 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:22.159 is he died when he was only thirty three years old and had experienced a 519 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:25.320 hell of a lot of trauma before that, and had a family who loved 520 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:30.199 him, and we did everything that we could. But loving an addict is 521 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:34.880 really really hard because of someone, especially someone who does not want to get 522 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:39.119 help or whose addiction prevents them from trying to get help. And so it 523 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:44.519 breaks my heart still. It's almost five years ago now that he died, 524 00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:49.440 and it breaks my heart, especially for my mother. Absolutely. The book 525 00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:53.599 opens with me officiating his funeral. Wow, you officiated his funeral. That 526 00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:58.519 must have been not easy. No, it was not easy at all. 527 00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.719 And I'm very fortunate that I had a lot of clergy colleagues and others who 528 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.639 offered to officiate and who offered to help. But the thing is is I 529 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:13.039 didn't trust anyone else with I didn't want addiction to be the only memory of 530 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.760 him. He was the first full person, right, and I didn't trust 531 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:22.760 anyone else with the rituals and lamentations and words for honoring someone like him, 532 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:27.400 and it ended up being a very small family affair for a host of reasons. 533 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.920 But yes, that's how the book opens and then goes back in time 534 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:36.119 to when the Journey Journey began, and at the very beginning there, we 535 00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:37.960 didn't really know anything was going on with him, So it was just kind 536 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:43.880 of my wife and my toddler and me, and we're footloose and fancy free, 537 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:45.760 you know, kind of like gallivanting through the woods in rural Vermont. 538 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:52.000 Yeah, let's take another quick break and a more booze. We'll wrap this 539 00:39:52.199 --> 00:40:00.400 up. So, Shelly, I know you know first hand that nothing says 540 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:06.400 I'm an apostate like drinking coffee, And no one says that better than apostate 541 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:10.039 coffee. That's right, if you're ready to express your apostateism. Is it 542 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:15.719 a word apostatism? Nope, but I liked it. Visit apostate coffee dot 543 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:20.320 com and check out tasty blends like Cup of Joe, choose the Light, 544 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:25.039 Outer, dark Roast, and more. All apostate coffees sustainably sourced, fair 545 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:29.960 trade and organic. Oh even better, so you can feel good about being 546 00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:34.119 an apostate, are you kidding, it's the best, So drink for yourself. 547 00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:38.440 Head to www. Dot Apostate Cooffee dot com, enter LDL when you 548 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:42.639 check out and get ten percent off your order. Oh it's like you get 549 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:47.320 a full tie back with every purchase. Do it and we're back Hello. 550 00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:52.599 So this book is a memoir essentially. What inspired you to write a memoir? 551 00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:58.679 Well, I've always loved travel memoirs. That has been my kind of 552 00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.719 like armchair travel, my go to when I want to read something that's just 553 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:07.440 for fun, because as an academic, so often i'm reading for research and 554 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:09.639 not just reading for fun. So there was that piece of things, and 555 00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:14.400 that's what I thought from the outset. But then as my brother's addiction got 556 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.840 worse and worse, and then as he died, I wanted to honor him, 557 00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.840 and I wanted to provide hope for other people who are struggling with addiction, 558 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.840 to see that there are ways out. And then alongside that, because 559 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:30.079 you've got my story. But then in each phase along the way, there 560 00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:34.760 are these different revolutionary women from history and myth whose stories that I share, 561 00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.639 and so part of it is also to give an even bigger platform and to 562 00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:43.920 shout their stories from the rooftops and say, it's not just my family who 563 00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:47.679 queered the American dream, but they are all of these amazing I keep using 564 00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.320 the word revolutionary, but that's the best word for them, revolutionary women who 565 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:55.239 have queered this dream throughout history. And if we follow in their footsteps, 566 00:41:55.239 --> 00:42:00.199 if we heed their wisdom, then we can kind of, as we talked 567 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.079 about at the beginning, go back to making this dream expansive enough for all 568 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:07.800 people. And how did each of the women that you chose to be part 569 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:13.239 of this story play into it? Like how did you select them, and 570 00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:17.119 how are they pivotal to different parts of this book. It's really interesting because 571 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:23.559 I've painted or created assemblage art for about one hundred and fifty women from history 572 00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:29.280 and mythology, and about one hundred and twenty one twenty one hundred and thirty 573 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:32.039 or so of those are sold in homes and galleries throughout the world. But 574 00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:35.960 at the time that we were leaving, I think I had about one hundred 575 00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:39.760 in the collection and there were only about sixteen left, and I had a 576 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:44.000 couple shows along the way as we were traveling. So what I did was 577 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.239 I packed up those actual paintings so the paintings of the women in this giant 578 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:52.760 green tuppaware container and it was stored in the storage compartment of our pop up 579 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:58.000 camper traveling all over and then we had these really wild experiences, like in 580 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:02.159 rural Vermont where the binge stored and I randomly, as a campground host, 581 00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:08.639 meet a couple who loves folk art and we call my iconography folk feminist iconography, 582 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.239 and so they're going on and on about how they love it, and 583 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:15.239 I say, well, I'm I'm actually a folk artist, and looking at 584 00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.559 images on my phone wasn't enough for them. So we end up hauling out 585 00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:23.280 the green tupaware beIN and like hanging a pop up show on the birch trees, 586 00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:27.519 and they end up purchasing some of the pieces and we hiked them down 587 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:30.400 to their camps and just kind of wild stories like that. And then some 588 00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:35.800 of them were the roles of the women, like Polly Murray, for example, 589 00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:40.960 who was the first African American woman ordained as an episcopal priest. But 590 00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:45.639 before that she was a civil rights attorney who coined the phrase Jane Crowe to 591 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:52.000 acknowledge the sexism that accompanied racism at Jim Crow Laws she also didn't have the 592 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.480 language for it at that time, but was queer and was likely gender nonconforming 593 00:43:55.559 --> 00:44:00.599 or transgender. So here she is this woman who's criminated against for her race, 594 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:06.000 her gender, her gender identity, and her sexuality, right and all 595 00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:09.079 of these profound rays who writes a book that Thurgood Marshall called the Bible of 596 00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:14.519 the civil rights movement. And I am teaching about her and writing about her 597 00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:22.159 and showing her painting when I'm in rural Virginia and seeing Confederate flags flying everywhere 598 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:28.519 that are hampering the otherwise gorgeous like autumnal glory from the gorgeous mountains and trees. 599 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:31.800 And so there's just different women who kind of come to the forefront of 600 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:35.880 the travels because of things that were happening in the world at the time, 601 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.079 or because of the location of where we were traveling. Wow. Yeah, 602 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:45.559 So it sounds like the locations corresponded to the women's stories that you are also 603 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.079 painting about and then writing. Absolutely, that's cool. So what is the 604 00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:54.800 sort of takeaway that you would like readers to know when they read the book? 605 00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.719 What are they going to get out of it? Potentially? My hope 606 00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:05.119 is that they'll leave both inspired and empowered and perhaps more than that, galvanized, 607 00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:12.880 like to go forward and queer their own dream and subvert and dismantle all 608 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.480 of these dreams that are handed to us as what the status quo is, 609 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.559 the way that we have to live and have to be, and say, 610 00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:22.280 you know, that's not working for me, and that's not working for most 611 00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:27.960 people. Actually, that it's these are dreams and status quo that disenfranchise the 612 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:32.599 marginalized and erase the voices of so many who deserve to be heard. And 613 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:37.599 so to reimagine, to invoke radical imagination of what it means to live and 614 00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:42.159 be and embody your dream in the world. Yeah, I guess that's my 615 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:46.960 next question for you. What does queering the American dream mean to you personally? 616 00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:54.039 That's a really great question. I would say that it means for my 617 00:45:54.159 --> 00:46:00.400 family in particular, that the way that we were living and the dreams that 618 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:02.800 were kind of passed down to us as the way that we need to be, 619 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:07.800 the family living in a big house with the white picket fence and you 620 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.880 know, two point five children and all of that. That that's designed by 621 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:17.519 a system and a structure that's rooted in white supremacist sis, heteropatriarchy, to 622 00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:22.519 throw the big woke words out there, and that it's not a system that 623 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:25.079 works for my family and that works for most people, and so we want 624 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:30.800 to dismantle it and reimagine something better, to reimagine a better world, and 625 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:35.440 to say that that world isn't just off there yonder by and by, but 626 00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:38.760 here now on earth, in the present, for us and for the people 627 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:44.199 that we care about, and for indeed all people. That's great. And 628 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:49.679 one percent of the proceeds from book sales go to support your foundation. That's 629 00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:53.199 the Tea Home Center. Am I saying that correctly? Tay Home? Okay, 630 00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:58.119 Tay Home. So what's interesting is that all of the money goes to 631 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:02.159 two different charities. One is are my publisher, Parsons Porch. They are 632 00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:07.639 a nonprofit publishing house whose motto is books to bread, and so everything that 633 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.679 goes to them goes to help feed hungry families. They're in Cleveland, Tennessee, 634 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.760 so in that area. And then all of my author royalties that typically 635 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:20.679 go to the author go directly to the Tahome Center to help empower marginalized women 636 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.159 by teaching about these revolutionary women through art writing, and special events. That's 637 00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:29.039 amazing, cool, thank you, Yeah, yeah, tell us more about 638 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:34.000 that center. How does that work? Sure? So it started off well, 639 00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:37.159 the work of the center with these revolutionary women in art and in writing 640 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:40.760 has been going on for well over a decade with me, but we didn't 641 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:45.760 become an official nonprofit until about five years ago on Hawaii Island, and then 642 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:50.800 it moved here with us and we were first incorporated as the Holy Women Icons 643 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.239 Project, And after a while we realized we aren't just a project, We're 644 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:59.280 a center. And also that name is quite a mouthful, and so we 645 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:02.880 ended up that we are the to Home Center, which means deeper depth, 646 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:09.400 so a center for deep spirituality and a place where marginalized women can come to 647 00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:14.920 find a breath for self care, where people can come to learn more about 648 00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:19.840 social justice issues, and then where we lift up these stories of revolutionary women 649 00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:22.719 from history and myth. That's really our primary goal, and that's both in 650 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:28.760 painting and in writing. And then those modalities come out in the retreats that 651 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.079 we lead, the courses that we teach, workshops and things like that. 652 00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:35.559 How do people find out more if they want to come to a retreat, 653 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:39.079 is that something that's open to anyone really or absolutely yes, So they could 654 00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:44.920 check out our website that's home Center, that's t h O M Center so 655 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:49.639 C E n t R dot org org and check out what we're doing. 656 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:53.800 They can also follow us at the to home Center on Facebook, Instagram, 657 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.119 Twitter. We're kind of on all of them. I still haven't learned TikTok, 658 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:02.079 but maybe one day we keep trying too and it escapes us. One 659 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:05.320 of these days we'll get it, and then we'll help you get it too. 660 00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:08.360 Might be perfect perfect. I hope that my young in turn was gonna 661 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:13.000 help me figure that out, but she's one of the rare gen zs who's 662 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:20.400 like, I don't get it either one exactly. So any of those platforms, 663 00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:22.440 we also have an email list that they can sign up on through to 664 00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:27.800 homecenter dot org, and that's also where they can go and purchase the book, 665 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:30.760 or anywhere books are sold actually is a great place to to get it, 666 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.079 or even at your local library. If you don't have the funds to 667 00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.079 buy it, you can ask libraries to order it for you, and most 668 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:39.599 of the time they will no nice. That's why I say, even if 669 00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.000 you can buy it, go in there and tell your library to order it. 670 00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:45.679 So that's there for others. Absolutely, we did this interview with some 671 00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:51.199 book people. There's a better word to that. Now. These are the 672 00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.960 people who collect them and put them in packs. Flight, Oh, curators, 673 00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:59.079 curators, that's Oh, it was called our shelves. Our shelves. 674 00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:02.400 Yeah, it's through kid books. They curate diverse kids books. Yeah, 675 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.440 yeah, so how cool. Yeah, because they're so hard to find. 676 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.320 And the issue is they're hard to find because no one requests them. It 677 00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:13.079 libraries, well, no one requests them because they don't know they exist, 678 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.280 because they're not in the library. So it's this cycle of like they're out 679 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.920 there, but no the libraries will order because nobody requests them. No one 680 00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:22.480 requests them because they don't know they exist. So that was why I'm saying, 681 00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.239 go into your library regardless and say, hey, can you get this 682 00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:29.440 book so it can start to be publicly available there. That was my Absolutely, 683 00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:31.840 that was her little spiel. I love it. I love that spiel. 684 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:36.760 Thank you, thank you. What have we left out? What else 685 00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:38.639 would you like our listeners to know? To be honest, I feel like 686 00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:46.000 we have covered a whole lot a lot together. I definitely want people to 687 00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:50.719 know that the work of the home Center can't happen in a vacuum. It 688 00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:53.000 can't just be me doing it. It has to be this amazing community, 689 00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:58.519 the community that I call the Subversive Sisterhood of Saints I love around the world, 690 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.280 who you know, who lives up these stories together, and so the 691 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:06.440 more folks get involved, the better. So I imagine there's a way to 692 00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:10.920 donate right on your website. Absolutely, absolutely, We're always happy for donations. 693 00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:15.480 And where do the retreats happen right now? Since we moved from Hawaii, 694 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.440 our most recent retreat, which was a pilot retreat called Queering the Dream, 695 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:24.000 happens here in the Saint Pete, Florida area, which was recently ranked 696 00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:28.280 for the second year in Ago as the top beach in the United States. 697 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.360 So that's a lovely place to holiday. Yeah, so that's not that far 698 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.119 or drive for us. We did that last year. I'm you know, 699 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:37.440 it's away. It is quite the drive. I mean, it's pretty, 700 00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:45.719 but that's pretty far. Okay, Well, the Tampa International Airport is only 701 00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.679 thirty minutes away. There you go a quick ride, and so we offer 702 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:53.760 those here and then we also offer some online retreats, including some free ones. 703 00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:59.199 On the website, there's access to a free seven day online self care 704 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.280 retreat, just that we've been offering throughout the pandemic because I don't know about 705 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.000 you, but I think we all need some serious self care right now, 706 00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.960 especially that kind of like radical self care for collective good. Yes, so 707 00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:15.679 we have those available as well. That's great. Well, gosh, Angela, 708 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:20.599 thank you so much. This has really been a very very interesting conversation. 709 00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:22.519 We really appreciate you coming on the show. Mary. You didn't tell 710 00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:27.400 me she was so awesome. Oh okay, I god, no idea. 711 00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.719 I'm like, oh no, another She's like when she say you unwrap, 712 00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:37.039 you find that out after you unwrapping. That's so nice. Good blushing over 713 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:39.639 here. Good thing. This is a podcast and not a video. We'll 714 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:47.440 have been amazing and hilarious. You're fantastic, No, you're fantastic, nose 715 00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:54.440 go on, stop. Well, our guest today has been the lovely and 716 00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:59.599 vivacious doctor, Reverend Doctor, Angela Yarbour. You got to get those things 717 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:05.719 in the order, I think, Reverend Doctor. And the book is Queering 718 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:09.000 the American Dream. It's available now. Check the show notes for the link 719 00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:14.280 to order yours or I guess your local bookstore. Perfect, don't forget to 720 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:19.119 visit Tayhomecenter dot org and throw some support. That's right, and get some 721 00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.199 support from them as well. Yeah, there we go, perfect, there 722 00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:23.599 you go. Thank you so much, Angela for being on the show today. 723 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.639 We'll really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Well, 724 00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:30.159 that was amazing. Yeah, what a cool person. I really enjoyed that 725 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:34.480 coming. She might be my new best friend. She doesn't know this yet, 726 00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:37.079 but I'm about to call her. Are you guys are going to go 727 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:40.440 brunch or something? Yes? Okay, yeah, Well we're gonna skip over 728 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:45.840 patrons this week. Thanks to everyone for their support on Patreon and supercast. 729 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:50.559 If you would like to give a support, please visit Latter day Lesbian dot 730 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:54.880 org slash support. We really really appreciate it. And while we're feeling appreciative, 731 00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:59.840 why don't we thank Dan from Extension Audio for leaving it in for sure. 732 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.719 Thanks for leaving in Dan, Yep, thanks so much. And remember 733 00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:07.360 everybody please sear clear of cults because they're no joke, no joke at all. 734 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:08.199 Calculator. Hi,