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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of Superhero Ethics. Today, I'm talking

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about one of my favorite sets of
books that I actually decided to reread recently

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because good friend of the podcast and
frequent guest, Danielle written in the Star

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Wars, did a great series of
tiktoks as she reread them, and I

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was just like, Okay, not
only does this make me want to reread

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the books, but this makes me
want to talk about those books with her.

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So, Danielle, welcome, and
I'm so glad to hear to talk

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about Hunger Games trilogy. Thanks for
having me. I'm excited to talk about

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it. I haven't been on anything
to talk about it other than my TikTok

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videos. So yeah, awesome,
awesome. Well, and let me just

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kind of start there and ask,
so, what was it that made you

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decide to kind of give these books
a reread? Well? I never read

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The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes when
it first came out. I always meant

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to, but I just kind of
kept pushing it off. And I decided

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this year that I wanted to go
ahead and read that. But before I

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did it, I wanted to reread
the Hunger Games because I hadn't read them

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since I was probably like sixteen years
old, and I'm twenty nine now,

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so yeah, I figured it was
time. I hadn't read them as an

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adult, so I wanted to do
that, and gosh, they held up

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so well. Yeah I was older, I read them as an adult.

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But I think when I read them
most mostly just like, okay, I

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want to have an idea what's going
to happen in the movies, and utterly

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fell in love with them. I
think I read them in like two days

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because I was traveling a lot and
getting to go back and read them though

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it really there was just so much
more depth that I had forgotten about,

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so much more just ways in which
I think the book format allows you to

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explore things that you know. And
I think the movies are fun but they

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don't really show up on screen.
Yeah, definitely. There's something that with

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Catnis being the first person, which
I find is really interesting because it's hard

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to write first person and get all
of the emotions of other characters and of

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the pop across to the reader because
you can be so focused on just the

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character who's perspective you're telling the story
through. But that wasn't an issue with

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this. I find there are some
things I wish there was a little more

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exploration of, but the plot is
explained very very well to setting everything,

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even though it's in first person.
Yeah, I think the fact that it's

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in the first person is one of
the things that struck me most. I'd

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forgotten how effective that is. First
of all, just because you get so

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much of her internal monologue and don't
we will be talking all about that.

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We're kind of start in general here, but also that not in a bad

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way. I think the way any
human being is. She's an unreliable narrator,

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and so we're constantly seeing both PETA's
actions and Gail's actions and her fathers

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and Snows and Hamade through her perspective, and there are definitely some times where

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you are like, oh, I
kind of wonder what was really happening,

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And even a few times you're like, cats, You're fantastic, but I

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want to shake you because you're hearing
this in a way that I think is

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not what was being said, and
it just you know, I kind of

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felt the same way about a lot
of other adaptations like that. There's a

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way in which the camera is always
going to the camera appears to be giving

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an objective perspective that doesn't actually really
make sense. And I feel like,

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in a world where so much of
the book is about doubting your own perceptions

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because so many others are trying to
control who you like, who you don't,

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how you look at them, having
to be from that perspective really helped

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to underline that point a lot more. Yeah, I agree, It's it's

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funny because when you're I think about
the first time I read the book,

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you're with Catnists on this. So
you don't know the same way she doesn't

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know that Peta is only with the
careers because he's trying to save her.

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We don't know if he's only with
the careers because he's trying to save her.

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We don't know what his reasoning was
behind telling hay Mitch that he wanted

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to train separately after that those first
couple of days, just like Catanists doesn't

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know. And so it's funny to
go back and reread it after knowing all

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of these things, and it's it
is so easy to be like Ketnis,

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that's not what he's trying to do, That's not what you know. He's

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trying to save your life, but
it's easy to forget that we used to

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be along the same path as her, wondering what his real motivations were,

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for sure, And I think it
does a really and we'll talk more about

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this. I think one of the
big things we wanna talk about is the

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romance among the three of them.
But one thing that I really love is

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how much it shows that her paranoia, her sort of having to look for

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the worst in people, can be
frustrating, but also it's so incredibly earned.

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Like everything, there's never a moment
where I don't think, Like,

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sometimes you'll read something like that,
you're like, come on this, like

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it should be obvious. I always
believe because Susan Collins, the author,

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does such a good job of putting
you inside her head and her world enough

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that you understand why she has to
treat everyone like that, because you know,

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you know, it's that idea of
like, you know, if if

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you're trying to tell yourself not to
worry too much, but a couple of

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the times when you didn't worry it
actually turned out to be really really bad,

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Like, now that's a good reason
to keep worrying so much. Yeah,

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she had to be the protector of
her sister and her mother at a

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very young age. And if she
didn't worry, they didn't get fed,

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they didn't have food, you know, they didn't have semi full stomachs,

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they didn't have a place to live, they didn't have any of the things

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that they needed to survive if she
didn't worry. And so when that happens

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at such a young age, it's
natural for that to continue on throughout your

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life where she gets to the point
where she doesn't trust that Peta is being

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genuine because she has to be suspicious
of everything, and it takes her a

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while to come out of that.
I think now, I think it's a

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great point. I want to start
diving into some of these specific topics,

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which just one more thing I'm curious
your thoughts on, especially because I know

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you do a lot of writing analysis. One thing that throws me every time

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I wrote the books, because I
always forget, is that they're written in

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present tense, which is not something
we as readers are used to because most

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novels are written in past tense,
as though someone is narrating it to you.

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You, what are your thoughts and
kind of how either why that was

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done? Or how it affects how
it reads to us. Well. I

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think it's a couple of things.
I think when you're writing in first person,

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it's much easier to write in present
tense as well. So instead of

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saying I didn't know what to do, you say I don't know what to

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do, and that it just it
feels more natural because it's more of like

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almost a stream of consciousness. It
puts you in the character's head as a

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writer and a reader, as in
it's as if you're experiencing all of these

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things along with the character. Instead
of reading about something that happened to them,

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you're reading about something that is happening
to them. And I think that

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is very much key in keeping the
reader engaged and keeping the momentum going because

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it's just it just it just keeps
adding on to one thing after the other

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after the other. And I watched
someone's TikTok, I can't remember who it

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was. They were talking about why
The Hunger Games works so well structurally,

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and it follows the rule of threes, which is in writing, you have

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build up certain build ups two events, and it usually happens in like three

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acts, which is what plays do. And it happens naturally in novels as

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well. Are it's supposed to happen
naturally in novels, but you can manipulate

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it a little bit. And Suzanne
Collins uses threes. She has three books

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obviously in the trilogy, and then
in each of those books there are three

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parts, right, so it's separated
into three parts. Within those three parts,

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there are nine chapters. Sometimes there's
one less or one more, but

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there are nine chapters within those three
parts. That's, you know, a

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variable of three. And then within
those chapters, most of them end on

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a cliffhanger, and so those chapters
follow the story arc a story arc.

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They end on right at the precipice
of the story of that chapter, and

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then the next chapter takes care of
it, builds up ends, next chapter

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takes care of it, builds up
ends, and so it's like it's that

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thing that makes you want to keep
reading, And that's why it's so easy

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to read them so quickly, because
you just keep going one after the other

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after the other. The momentum never
ends, and I think that works.

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So I'm really going to put it
that way. I've never really picked up

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on that because to me, part
of what also conveys is it's the immediacy

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for her. Like one of the
things that I was thinking. First of

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all, there's a sense of if
I'm reading something that is written in the

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past tense, on some level,
my brain is going to think that means

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you survived this, you know,
Whereas if I'm reading what's basically a stream

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of consciousness, then I feel like
it's more likely the author might be like,

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you know, and then she died
and now here's you know, the

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epilogue or something like that. Yeah, But more to the point, I

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also think when you read it in
the past tense, there's often a sense

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of like the author is able to
now see the whole thing and consider what

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was going on, Whereas because it's
written in that present tense, it really

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I think it helps give that idea
of like, this is not a person

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who there are some times where she
gets to sit back and make immediate thoughts,

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but so often she had you know, prim is called she has to

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decide what to do. Peter says
he loves her. She has to decide

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what facial expression to make, Like
everything she has to do is in the

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moment and the present tense. I
think part of I think why I was

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thinking of it is not getting a
whole of the tangent. But there's a

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set of books in a Star Wars
universe that I've recently read that we're also

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written in present tense, where I
felt like it really didn't work. I

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think part of it is because in
that the POV is shifting constantly between different

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characters, and a lot of it
is in the third person, not first

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person, and so to me this
just felt like I was like, Okay,

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I feel like you can be a
gimmick or here is used so so

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well. Yeah, I think I
think you're correct. In past tense,

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it is like the author is kind
of saying, here's this profound thing we've

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learned from this story as the story
is being told, which which has its

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merits and can be done really really
well. And there are some people who

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just write that way more naturally,
but first person is like, there's not

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so much time for profound, thought
out sayings. In first person, it's

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just yeah, they can happen,
and they do happen. They happen in

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the Hunger Games, but it is
much more the action that this is what's

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happening, this is what we have
to do. Right, Let's talk about

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some of the major elements. And
what I know, because I know you've

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commented on this a lot and the
even characters, is that there is a

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romance at the heart of these books, as there often is in Ya,

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and it's a love triangle, as
there frequently is. But this one was

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really kind of it felt like flipping
the narrative on a lot of the Twilight.

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I think it is the easiest example
that comes to mind, and Collins

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has mentioned that it's something she's trying
to like go into direction from, but

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I think it's kind of a long
history of that, and so I worked

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to sharp my kind of getting a
sense for you of like what's kind of

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your thought on love triangles in general, in why romances or romances in general,

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and then how you feel about how
this one was handled. Well.

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I find that what we call love
triangles shouldn't be called love triangles because for

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various reasons, if you think about
the shape of a triangle, ultimately it

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should be everyone is connected to each
other, so there should be feelings between

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everyone for everyone. And there are
some books that I've seen that do that

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and that aren't afraid, you know, the intern too, the those types

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of feelings. But obviously early two
thousands, two thousand tens, we're not

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going to get that, Really Galena
developing feelings for each other, it was

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just not gonna happen. It's a
love V. Is that a better term?

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Yeah? I think that is a
better term because it's one person having

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complicated feelings for two different people.
And so that's my first issue with it.

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My second is that usually sometimes this
isn't the case. But usually when

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there is a love triangle or love
V you can tell who the author has

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a preference for and who is inevitably
the winner. There's never really a surprise,

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Like I don't think that Peta being
the one who ends up with catanis

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in the end and not Gail is
a surprise. I think that there are

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maybe as you're reading it, but
if you go back and reread it,

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it's all there. It's all there
in the subtext that if she has to

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be with someone, it's going to
be Peta, it's not going to be

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Gail. And and so in that
case, I'm always just kind of like,

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I'm not bored in this case because
it's Hunger Games. I love the

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Hunger Games. That none of it
could ever bored me, But there are

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some where it's just like, if
you're going to have that complicated, those

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complicated feelings between two characters, buy
another character, and you want there to

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be suspensed and you want there to
be tension, then it needs to be

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unbiased. There needs to be a
reason for both of them to be possible

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suitors and not you know, something
that just completely takes one of them out

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of it. A book that is
very clearly about vampires is not going to

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have your main character run off with
a werewolf. Yeah, that's just not

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how that's going to work. No. I think that's a really good point,

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and I think that to me,
I think one of the things that

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I really found appealing about it,
and Meryelle commenting at the time, is

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that And again, good quielights the
easy one to bash, and I don't

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want to do that if you did
a great episode on Twilight a couple of

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months ago on here. But I
think a lot of them, often the

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female character is the one with the
least agency, Like there's a kind of

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like I'm sitting here sighing, wondering
which one to pick. I think the

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thing that I liked the most about
how this one played out is that,

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and I think it shows Catiness's journey
so well. Is that for most of

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the book, at least as I
read it, And tell me if you

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see it wrong, she isn't thinking
in terms of who do I really want.

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She's thinking in terms of who will
who will either bring the most benefit

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into my life right now or who
will do me the most harm if I'm

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not not that they will do the
most harm. But you know, it's

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like, Okay, I have to
be with Peta because of all of this,

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or no, the only way I
can survive is if I'm with Gail.

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Like there's a there's a real sense
of I don't mean that's in a

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bad way that she's like playing them
off against each other, because I think

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that it's the survival mentality that they're
all in. I'll think Gail a little

218
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more than Peter, and that's what
I'll talk about later, but like she

219
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is the one who has absolutely all
the agency among the three of them throughout

220
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the entire thing. And I think
that was just for me incredibly refreshing and

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felt like a real change from that, as you said, very standard trope

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that I think a lot of people, myself included, he had kind of

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gotten tired of. Yeah, I
think I would. I think I would.

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I think I would argue that that
is the way Gail and petas her.

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But that's not how Catness sees herself
in this situation, because I think

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Gail and Peta do see her as
choosing who is who is going to benefit

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her the most in this situation,
or what she has to do to survive

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in this situation. But Catness sees
it as just surviving. Like she's not.

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She's not saying, oh, I
have to be with Peta because I

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have to survive. She's She's just
looking at what is in front of her

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and thinking, I have to survive. This is what it is. And

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she's not viewing it as romance.
She's not viewing it as a relationship.

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And I think that's why there's a
part in mocking Jay when Peta and Gail

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think she's asleep, because you always
have to have a scene where the two

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suitors think that they think the girl
is asleep, and they are talking about

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their feelings for Catness and about what
she might do, what she might choose,

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and Gail says it's easy, She's
going to choose who she can't who

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thinks she can't survive without, or
who she thinks, you know whatever,

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And Catness is hurt by that.
She's hurt by Gail saying it. She's

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hurt by Peta not denying it because
her feelings have always been used against her

241
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her entire life, and especially since
the Hunger Games. She's not allowed to

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explore her real feelings for Peta because
she has to continue on in this facade.

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She's not allowed to explore it.
She's not allowed to think about what

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her real feelings might be because she
has to put up these overly dramatic fake

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feelings. And she's not allowed to
explore what her feelings for Gail might be

246
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because he's, you know, he's
trying to get something from her that she's

247
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not sure that she wants and but
she thinks she might want it, but

248
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she's not sure, and she can't
because Snow will use that against her,

249
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and Coyn will use that against her. People will always use that against her.

250
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And so she's taught herself to keep
her truth to herself pushed back in

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the back of her mind so that
no one can use them against her.

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And so I think for her to
hear someone say that she would choose,

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it would be like math like math
for her to choose which one she's going

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to be with. I think it
really hurt her because that's not who she

255
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is. She's a very emotional person, and that's what I like that.

256
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Suzanne Collins added to that was that, no, like, maybe she will

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choose the person who she can't survive
without, but it's not going to be

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because of that. It's going to
be because she's finally letting herself feel for

259
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the first time. Now, I
think you're really right. I think you

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said that much better than I could, because that, to me, that's

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kind of what I meant to that. I don't think she's doing it calculating,

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like I think it is very much
that she It is just the survival

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sense. It's not this cold calculating
thing, but that's how it appears to

264
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others. Yeah. Yeah, to
me that what you said about the end

265
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is very important because to me,
that's one of the things that is so

266
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beautiful about the the ending chapters and
the epilogue is that it's when she finally

267
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actually has the ability to choose,
you know, that she can allow herself

268
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to feel. And one thing that
I kind of and again I don't know

269
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if I was reading. I don't
know if I was reading into this or

270
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if you think it's there as well. Obviously one of the major plot points

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early in the first book, but
it runs through all of it, is

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that when her mother died, I'm
sorry, when her father died, her

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mother utterly fell apart and just and
could not take care of the two kids.

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And that's a big She couldn't work, she couldn't do anything, and

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that's a big part of why all
three of them almost starved to death,

276
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and that Catanis at the age of
eleven, had to take care of the

277
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family. And I think that's a, you know, a horrific thing for

278
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her kid to go through. I
related a lot to her journey as someone

279
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who had alcoholic parents at that age
and started going to PC meetings from my

280
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sister. But kind of what it
made me wonder is is a part of

281
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because one thing that I think it
is so powerful about it is, as

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you said, she often want start
to feel feelings and stop herself because she's

283
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like, I can't allow myself to
do this, even to the point of

284
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there's so much compassion where she's like, well, but it would be mean

285
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to like Peter has to think that
I don't have feelings for him, and

286
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.160
so it would be mean to like
go cuddle with him now, or it'd

287
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be mean to Gail like she wants
to protect them. Almost my point all

288
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this being, do you think it's
fair to say that part of why she's

289
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so afraid of that is because she
saw how dependent her mother was on her

290
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father, that when she lost her
father, her mother just broke. Yeah,

291
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and that a part of her on
some level is like, I don't

292
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ever want to be that dependent on
someone else because I have all I have

293
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to take care of Haymans, I
have to take care of my mother and

294
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sister, I have all this responsibility. I can't be vulnerable like my mother

295
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was. Yeah, I think there's
I think there's a part in either catching

296
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Fire I think it was. I
think it is catching fire where she thinks

297
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that, where she thinks is this. It's somewhere along the lines. I

298
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hope I'm not who, I'm not
misremembering this, but I feel like there's

299
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a part either catching Fire or marking
Jay where something happens to one of them

300
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and catness feels a little more sympathetic
towards her mother because she realizes, is

301
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this what she felt? Is this
like absolutely paralyzing, destroying, feeling what

302
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she felt? Who am I to
say that I wouldn't have ended up the

303
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same way? And I want to
say that you see this, you see

304
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this in the way that she feels. Because when Gail gets whipped within an

305
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inch of his life and Catching Fire, she is beside herself. They have

306
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to take her out of the room. She can't deal with it. And

307
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when Peta sorry, when Finnick has
to bring Peter back to life in Catching

308
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.559
Fire in the arena, she is
beside herself again. She won't move,

309
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she won't leave. She stays there
with him until someone brings him back to

310
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life. And then at the end
of Catching Fire, I believe in the

311
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beginning of mocking Jay, the whole
thing with Peta, she's ready to go

312
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kill Peta because she doesn't want him
to be tortured when she thinks that he's

313
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still there, when she doesn't realize
that he's been kidnapped by the Capital,

314
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and when she sees what the Capital's
done to him and she realizes that it

315
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.440
might be her fault. That Snow
might be ready to kill him if she

316
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.480
says anything wrong. She can't speak, she can't do what she needs to

317
00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:37.359
do to survive and to help others
survive because of that debilitating feeling, and

318
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she I think she sees that in
herself, and I think she recognizes it,

319
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and it's only when everything's over and
done that she lets herself fully feel

320
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that, right, because I think
one of the things that happens is that

321
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she no longer feels like she has
to live for someone else. Yeah,

322
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.279
there's this crushing I think codependency that
she hadn't mean and like it's a kind

323
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.240
of easy word to be, like
to judge someone else. I don't mean

324
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.000
it in that kind of a bad
way. But she has to live for

325
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.119
her sister, She has to live
for her mother, she has to live

326
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.720
for pame At, for Gail,
for kid, his siblings and all that.

327
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And I think part of what happens
at that end there is that she's

328
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.559
able to be free of that.
And part of its tragic because I mean,

329
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her mother has now gotten better enough
that she can take care of herself,

330
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but also her sister is dead.
Yeah, but also that now that

331
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all this to me I mean,
one of those heartbreaking things throughout it all

332
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.680
is the part of why she doesn't
ever want to be with someone is because

333
00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:36.440
she fears getting pregnant and having kids
because then those kids would be subject to

334
00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:37.480
the Hunger Games and all that as
well. Yeah, so, you know

335
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.720
what I think is really interesting you
saying that, like she's had to live

336
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.839
for someone else up until the very
end. I think we see that like

337
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:48.200
get chipped away a little bit.
And part of that has to do with

338
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.839
her being in the Hunger Games,
because before she was in the Hunger Games,

339
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.640
she had to live for Prem,
and then when she's in the Hunger

340
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.079
Games, part of her is still
like, I have to get back to

341
00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.680
my sister. I have to get
back to my sister. But apart with

342
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.119
Ru, where she thinks she thinks
about if it's just her and Ru at

343
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the end, and she's like,
I have to get back to Prim.

344
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:14.799
But wait, Prim has people.
Prim has Gail, Prim has their mother,

345
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.400
Prim has PETA's father, everyone in
District twelve who promised they would look

346
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:26.400
after her. Prim has Ru has
nobody in that arena except for Catnes,

347
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.160
and that catness separates in her mind. Prim has what she needs. I

348
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.279
have to be here for Ru,
so she's living for Ru in that situation,

349
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and then in the end, after
Ru dies, Catness has to kind

350
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.319
of live for herself for the first
time instead of for someone else. And

351
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:47.200
each time she's in the arena,
she decides what she's going who she's going

352
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.119
to be living for, if it's
herself, if it's someone else, And

353
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.680
I like that we see that ship
away in each book until in the end

354
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:57.200
she doesn't have anyone else to live
for. She has to find a reason

355
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:02.200
to live for herself. One of
the things I thought was so powerful was

356
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:07.400
just reading how she feels about keeping
Peter alive in book one verson book two,

357
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:11.799
because in book one, I mean
she went through this whole thing and

358
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.000
first of all thinking that he was
a career and that he was trying to

359
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.720
kill her, and also not understanding
the declaration of love and not knowing if

360
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:22.240
it's fake or what, and also
this feeling of oweing people, which I

361
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.079
want to get to in a second. But when she does go to save

362
00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.240
him, she's very clear in her
head it's because she feels like she could

363
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.559
never go back to District twelve if
she did let him die, Like there's

364
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.640
a real sense of she wants to
take care of him, but also it's

365
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:41.119
a constant like I need to keep
him alive so that I can Again,

366
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:42.880
not in a calculing way, it's
just it's just the immediate where her plan

367
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.880
goes. Compare that to book two, where she goes in fully resolved to

368
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.839
die so that he can live.
Yeah, and it's no longer about you

369
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.319
know, at this point, like
both of their families are in their Victor

370
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:59.200
village and his family isn't. His
family is doing well because they're merchants sort

371
00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:03.279
of. You know. It's not
about like I have to live for someone

372
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.839
else. It's just that about like
she's convinced Petas is better than her,

373
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.279
and she owes it to him to
to try and live. I also think

374
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:11.440
it is a little bit of a
cop out on her, like I'm not,

375
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.599
I'm not on both their ends wanting
to die for each other because they

376
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:22.000
couldn't stand the idea of living.
Yeah, and knowing that their life cost

377
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.160
the life of a person that they
care deeply about. And Katness isn't ready

378
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.119
to call that love yet Peta is. But neither of them can stand a

379
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.240
living that way, And and so
I mean, I don't mean it in

380
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:37.920
a rude way, but it is
a little bit of a cop out.

381
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.759
Is to kind of says this in
the book to her. You know,

382
00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:45.799
she's thinking it it would be worse
to live than it would be to survive

383
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:52.039
in this case, And I think, yeah, yeah, no, I

384
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.880
think that's such a good point.
And it's I know you made a made

385
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.079
a I know you were poking fun
at the idea, but he made a

386
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.880
TikTok about like, no matter how
in love you'll be, you'll never be

387
00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.440
the two of them fighting to keep
the other alive. And I responded with,

388
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:06.480
actually, i've been in codependently tips, Yes, I have been.

389
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.160
It wasn't good. It's a it's
a love that's nice to read about,

390
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:15.359
but in practice is not so fun. Yeah, And I think that's that's

391
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.119
part of it, is that,
like I think if it had just been

392
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.359
that that love gets to continue into
book three, it would have been a

393
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.079
lot worse. The fact that it's
challenged again. Yeah, and it's funny.

394
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:29.400
I never even thought about this,
but throughout the whole book, she

395
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:33.039
is constantly questioning his motives for the
whole series, and one of the things

396
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:38.119
that the that the Capitol does that
snow does to him is to now make

397
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.559
him question her motives. And that's
the thing, and they never thought about

398
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:42.799
it this way, But yeah,
I think that kind of puts them on

399
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.759
almost an even level, that they
now both had to go through this because

400
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.279
I know she always feels like she
can never live up to him, Yeah,

401
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.200
because he has always loved her and
she hasn't. Yeah. Yeah,

402
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.680
I think that there was a lot. One thing that was holding her back

403
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.599
is that Peter has always put her
on a pedestal and she can't. She

404
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.839
could never see herself the way he
saw her, and that made her uncomfortable

405
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:08.039
because she I think it made her
feel like she had to live up to

406
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:11.559
a certain expectation he had for her, and he didn't see the ugly parts

407
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:18.720
of her and the cruel and mean
parts that she could see in everybody and

408
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.279
especially in herself. And I think
there's a part in mocking Jay when they

409
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:27.319
get Peter back and she hears him
say like that he hates her and that

410
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:30.880
he wants nothing to do with her
and all these things, and she thinks

411
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.599
he's finally seeing the real me.
I don't like it, like I want

412
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:38.880
to go back to when he saw
the best of me, because he was

413
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:44.359
the only one. Not the only
one, but he was the person in

414
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.559
her life who made her feel like
she could be something other than what she

415
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.440
saw in the mirror. And to
have that taken away from her, I

416
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:57.880
think was needed, but also to
have it taken away that way must have

417
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:02.960
been excruciatingly painful. Yeah. No, I think you're very right. I

418
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:07.359
think actually I saved that page,
and I think she does specifically say like

419
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.799
he was the one person who saw
who saw that it could be better.

420
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.960
And it's one of the juxtaposed where
there's a line where when she's thinking about

421
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.559
like she can be with Gail and
she's kissing him of like this is easier

422
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.400
because Gail. She doesn't quite say
it, but theres an element of like

423
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:23.319
Gail is as broken as I am. Yeah, Yeah, it's powerful.

424
00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:26.359
The other thing I kind of came
up from me is we're talking that I

425
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.000
haven't thought somebody won't want to hear
what you think. In the books,

426
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:37.519
the idea of owing people is constantly
in her head, and she's always very

427
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:41.200
worried about it, Like she hates
the idea of accepting help because then she'll

428
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.759
owe somebody. She hates the idea
of, you know, when Phoenix saves

429
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:48.119
her life, it means when Phoenix
saves PETA's life, she's so happy that

430
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.960
he's saved, but she also is
like, I'm so upset about this because

431
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:56.319
now I owe finish something. And
that's true for people in the hobb In

432
00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:00.680
back home throughout her life. Where
do you think that comes from? And

433
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.960
why is it so focused on that? She is always worried about the debts,

434
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.599
not monetarily but like emotionally, you
know, and all that that she

435
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.880
owes people well. She tells pet
in the first book that if he was

436
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:17.640
from the seam, he'd understand,
but he's not. And I think that

437
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:22.160
that it was a connection with Gail
she had was that they never wanted to

438
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:26.000
owe each other. They never wanted
to owe anyone else because I don't know,

439
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:30.519
I guess maybe there's a sense of
pride in being able to take care

440
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:36.240
of what's yours and being able to
take care of yourself, and if you

441
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:41.559
can't, then that's a like and
someone takes care of that for you.

442
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.880
They take care of what's yours,
They take care of your life. How

443
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.480
do you repay that. How do
you repay them for taking care of something

444
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:55.759
you couldn't and you want that to
be even I think because of that pride

445
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.839
and because of the I guess the
probably shame that comes with not being able

446
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.079
to do that, and when you
don't have to do that, when you

447
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:08.200
don't have to worry about whether your
family is going to eat or not,

448
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.519
then you don't really know what that's
like because you've never had to ask for

449
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:17.799
that help or you've never had to
accept it. And I think that that's

450
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.960
just something that Katans has had to
deal with her whole life, and she

451
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:25.559
adds it to every aspect of her
life after that. Yeah, I love

452
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:26.839
that. I don't really put in
those terms. I was thinking a slightly

453
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.039
different angle, and I think there's
kind of maybe some truth to both that.

454
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.960
Like you said, Pete doesn't get
it, and one of the common

455
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:38.960
themes is that Peta is at least
by District twelve standards, and especially in

456
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:44.640
her perspective, a little more comfortable. I part of what I got the

457
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:48.319
sense it was also that, like
both her and Gail have grown up in

458
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.599
a world where the idea, the
idea that you could ever have enough to

459
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.920
generously give to someone else is just
not really conceived of easily, and so

460
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.960
there's a sense of like that a
lot of most of life has to be

461
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.039
somewhat transactional, you know, and
like, yeah, but so I think

462
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.720
it's just one more part of the
books that I love is the way that

463
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.200
that gets talked about with her.
Yeah, and I think I think those

464
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:15.880
what you and I said fit fit
together, and that like someone can't give

465
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.079
you something out of the goodness of
their hearts because it's going to cost them,

466
00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.599
and so like how do you how
do you pay back what it costs

467
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:29.000
them? And that's a lot harder
when it's not in monetary terms. Yeah,

468
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:33.599
I think it's really true. So
let's talk about the two suitors,

469
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:36.920
because I know you have some pretty
strong opinions, and I think we're mostly

470
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.279
in agreement, but I may defend
one a little bit. Give me your

471
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:42.400
case against Gail Well, not about
why he wasn't gonna get choosen. I

472
00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:45.000
think that was always clear. But
from your TikTok, I get the sense

473
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.559
you are not a Gail Stan.
I want to hear why, well,

474
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.400
I want to I want to be
clear. I am not a Gail Stan.

475
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:59.599
When it comes to the way he
treats catmis. I understand absolutely why

476
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:05.160
he thinks the way he does when
it comes to rebellion and when it comes

477
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:08.960
to war, and when it comes
to his vindictiveness against the capital, because

478
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:15.400
they have done absolutely horrible things.
And I speak from experience, when someone

479
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:20.839
has done absolutely or an entity has
done absolutely horrible things to you and yours,

480
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.880
it is natural to feel like if
I could flip a switch and end

481
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:29.279
them, I think I would because
maybe that would solve some of my problems.

482
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:32.799
And so I get that feeling,
and I think it's natural, especially

483
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:37.759
in eighteen nineteen year old boy,
to feel that way, and so I

484
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:42.759
don't begrudge him those feelings. I
don't at all. I completely understand them.

485
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.079
What I do begrudge him is,
and I think this comes from my

486
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:53.799
experience growing up as a girl,
is that he was not satisfied with his

487
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:00.440
relationship with Catanists as it was.
And I know how that feels on the

488
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:04.720
receiving. On the receiving, it
like to be Catness and to have your

489
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:08.880
best friend in the world, the
one person you trust, suddenly change their

490
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:14.119
mind and then what you're giving them
isn't enough, and you don't know how

491
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:19.440
to make it enough and still be
comfortable yourself and still keep them. You

492
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.680
want to keep them the way that
they are. You want to keep your

493
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.240
relationship the way that it is,
and you will are willing to do anything

494
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:29.319
even if it makes you uncomfortable,
even if it makes you question things,

495
00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:32.559
and the other person isn't willing to
do that as well on their end in

496
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:40.440
the reverse. And I think that
is a really really like not cool way

497
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:46.640
for Gail to act towards his best
friend. And I feel this most when

498
00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:52.359
there are certain there are certain scenes
where, specifically in mocking Jay and Catching

499
00:33:52.400 --> 00:34:00.000
Fire, where he gets all pouty
and tells Catness you only you only feel

500
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:04.039
this way about me whenever I'm hurt, because you want to make it better,

501
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.079
and I'm like, we're in the
middle of a war. Catness has

502
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:14.840
been through unimaginable horrors and your biggest
concern right now is whether or not she

503
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:20.440
wants to kiss you for real,
and that I have an issue with because

504
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.760
it's not fair to her. And
I think that that is where like pet

505
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:27.920
and Gail are unfairly matched, I
will give Gail bad. They're unfairly matched

506
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:32.159
because from the bat like, Peta
has his moments at the end of the

507
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.599
first book and beginning very beginning of
the second where he's hurt that Catiness doesn't

508
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.400
feel the way about him that he
does about her, and he's hurt that

509
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:46.519
she played along into this game that
he didn't realize was a game, and

510
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.400
he takes a while to come around, but he does, and he tells

511
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.119
her he takes it all on himself. He doesn't blame her. He tells

512
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:58.079
her that he's sorry for the way
that he acted and that she is under

513
00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:02.000
no obligation to feel that way about
him or to continue the game, and

514
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:06.599
he wants but he does want to
be friends with her. And I think

515
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:09.320
that went a long way for Catnis
because he started on the opposite end of

516
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:14.800
Gail. Yeah, but then was
willing to give that up, to sacrifice

517
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:17.800
that just to be her friend.
But Gail wasn't willing to sacrifice his feelings

518
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.599
just to be her friend, which
I think is I mean, to me,

519
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.719
that's really where I define love.
Is not to a codependent way,

520
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:29.800
not to a way where you're violating
your own boundaries, but he is to

521
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:35.159
a way where you are you know, like let's say whatever the person is

522
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.679
to you, you know, they
get a job offer that's the perfect job

523
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.800
offer, and it's on the other
side of the country. And your response

524
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:45.599
can be to say, this is
really great for them, and I'm happy

525
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:49.079
for them. I'm sad that I
won't live next to them anymore, and

526
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.440
I will find an appropriate place to
explain that, but primarily, this is

527
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.480
what is good for them, and
I love them and I want what's good

528
00:35:54.480 --> 00:36:00.199
for them, or it can be
you know, not only am I upset

529
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:01.800
that you're going to move away,
but I'm going to take it personally that

530
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:04.960
you're choosing that over me, you
know, that kind of thing. And

531
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:07.760
I think that's really where they separate
some Well. I was hoping, honestly,

532
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:09.719
I was hoping would get a good
debate out of this, But actually

533
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:13.880
I think we totally agree, because
because the main way I wanted to defend

534
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.599
Gail is that I do think that, but you just said all of it

535
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:22.679
like that. Gail's opinions on the
war do make a lot of sense from

536
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.239
where he is, and I guess
the one thing I would add is and

537
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:29.599
I think this is true, like
I think Peta is just fundamentally compassionate,

538
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.719
and that to me, one of
the arcs of the books is that Catnus

539
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:37.360
has a lot of compassion, but
she generally fights it because she believes she

540
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.159
like she has compassion for everyone,
but she has to take care of the

541
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:44.039
people she has to take care of, and to be part of the point

542
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:50.519
of the books is her learning compassion. I read a great uh piece a

543
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:52.519
while and I'm sorry I saw a
TikTok a while ago. I need to

544
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:54.679
get better like writing down the people
who do these TikTok it always inflordes me.

545
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:59.440
But basically, they were kind of
doing a literary analysis of love triangles,

546
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:00.639
and they said that one of the
points off and of a love triangle

547
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:05.719
or love v as you said,
is that one spoke represents the character if

548
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:09.480
they stay the same, and that
one spoke represents the character if they go

549
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:13.119
into this new aspect of being,
you know, a new part of who

550
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.000
they could be. And I think
that's very true for who Gail and Peter

551
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:19.239
represent for her. The other thing
I just say, though, is a

552
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.039
little more of a defensive Gail.
I still don't think it excuses the way

553
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.599
he talks about her like that.
I totally agree with there, he like

554
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:30.119
he never actually asks her, do
you actually have feelings for Peta? Do

555
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:32.599
you have to force all this?
Like he never interrogates that with her.

556
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:35.880
I mean, not interrogation, but
like, you know, he never questions

557
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.719
that. I think though, the
thing that I think is important, And

558
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:42.360
I do think this is kind of
a point of the book is and this

559
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:47.679
lets me not blame gail Less but
also understand him. In the very relative

560
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.280
world of twelve wherein fairness, everyone
is still very poor, Peter is still

561
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.440
a lot more privileged. And that's
part of the whole. Like we're not

562
00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:59.920
from the he's not from the seam. And I do think part of what

563
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.000
the books are about and I think
this is like often we talk about privilege

564
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.880
and in a very bad way,
and I think that's a really important thing.

565
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:13.360
But I think that Peta is given
the chance to have like what Peta

566
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.679
does of throwing the bread to the
to this you know, starving girl.

567
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:21.559
Part of why hits Catin is so
hard is she could never imagine doing that

568
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.840
because every scrap of bread is either
needed for me or is needed for the

569
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.719
goat, or you know, whatever
it is. And so yeah, I

570
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:30.559
guess that's just to me. My
other thing is like I feel like Gail

571
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:35.719
is absolutely unfair to her and wrong, and I disagree with him where he

572
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:39.039
gets politically. But I think that
the part, part of what I think

573
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:45.960
the point is is that the horrible
situation that they're in the seam is part

574
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.960
of what makes both Gail and cat
and is who they are. Catnis gets

575
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.519
the chance to get out, in
part by going to the Hunger Games and

576
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.559
meeting Pete and all this, and
Gail ever gets that chance. Yeah,

577
00:38:54.679 --> 00:39:00.920
yeah, that is a good point
that if Peter was allowed room to have

578
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:06.559
compassion build up in him, which
is interesting because his mother is not compassionate

579
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:12.039
at all, and and it's it's
it's almost like, you know, I'm

580
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:19.320
thinking of this now, just now
as I'm talking. But Catness and Peta

581
00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.880
end up as polar opposites of their
mother. Really, I mean they have.

582
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.280
I mean Catness has some of her
mother and her I think that comes.

583
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:29.719
I think I think she does have. Kettness has a strong ability for

584
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:31.639
compassion, and we see that over
and over and over again. And I

585
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:36.679
do think that that comes from both
her father and her mother. But where

586
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:43.679
her mother isn't able to push past
some of her grief and take care of

587
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.840
her children, which is understandable.
I think I think her mom gets a

588
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:51.280
little bit of a bad rap,
because that would what would be unimaginable pain

589
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.320
to have to go through, and
she was in depression and you can't always

590
00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:59.880
control what happens during that. Catness
is not like that, and she would

591
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.119
no, I don't think she would
allow herself to become like that when other

592
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:07.679
people depended on her. Yeah.
Now we see her like that after prim

593
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:10.960
dies, but no one is there
to depend on her anymore, so she

594
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.320
has no one to fight for.
And then with Peta, Oh, go

595
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.119
ahead, I would you say?
And I think part of that is also

596
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.559
why she's so hesitant to let anyone
depend on her. Yeah, And maybe

597
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:24.480
that's also part of the owing thing, is because if you owe someone something

598
00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:28.679
when they are depending on you to
eventually like do the favor back or whatever

599
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:30.639
it is. Yeah. And then
with Peta his mother, who we don't

600
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:35.199
get a lot of understandably because it's
not through PETA's perspective, but his mother

601
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:44.400
is very cold and very abrasive and
judgmental, and Peta is the exact opposite.

602
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.320
And I think it's it's kind of
kind of beautiful to see how that

603
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:52.639
was able to how he was able
to become so compassionate. And I will

604
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:59.320
say also that one thing I've realized
and my reread is that Catness's weakness is

605
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:05.079
human compassion shown towards her. And
I think it's because she got so little

606
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.519
of it. She's not used to
it, she's not used to letting it

607
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:09.119
in. And we see that like
over and over again, we stay with

608
00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:15.480
Peter. Peter being compassionate to her
is an absolute like pierced to her armor.

609
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:22.639
Finnick being compassionate to her another pierce. Every single person who shows her

610
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:29.719
compassion, she is unable to let
them go. Yeah, I think it's

611
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:31.559
really beautiful. Ever to put it, We can talk to so much more

612
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:35.159
on this. I want to kind
of talk keep on a similar topic but

613
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.400
expanded a little bit, because again, this is something that the books going

614
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.800
to a lot more that the and
in this regard probably really couldn't show it

615
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.559
on screen. And that's better.
But I've forgotten how much in the books

616
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:52.440
the way that the victors are sexually
exploited is really a big theme. I

617
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:54.800
mean, it's funny because it's very
much like it is. The language is

618
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:59.559
never like purple in any way.
I mean, it's Ya from the two

619
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.519
thousands said, it's funny. I
think it's not been that long. You'read

620
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:07.159
Ya today. It's much much more
explicit. Like the most explicit we get

621
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:12.239
is her having a hunger as she
kisses him, and that's all. But

622
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.000
you know, they talk about how
most of the victor most of the not

623
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:19.960
the victors, most of the tributes, like their costumes when they come in

624
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:23.599
for the gala are often they're just
naked or they're incredibly sexually provocative. And

625
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:29.119
this is when they're children. Yeah, and Finnick talks about how he was

626
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.400
given away, you know, and
it's implied, but I think in the

627
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:37.599
books it's made much more clear that, like the sexual favors of the victors

628
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:42.239
are traded quite openly. And yeah, I'm kind of curious your thought on

629
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:45.199
how how that part of the book's
played for you and kind of what what

630
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.000
effect it has and why I was
in there and whether it's good or not.

631
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:52.119
Yeah, I was. I mean, I guess not surprised because a

632
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.039
lot goes over your head. I
think when you're when you're younger and reading

633
00:42:55.079 --> 00:43:02.079
these but I completely got about the
fact that they wanted to give Catness breast

634
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:08.519
enhancements, yep, when she's sixteen, and and the fact that Sinnah had

635
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:15.440
to or not Senna Hami Hamich stood
outside her door and threatened to kill anyone

636
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.320
who came near her with that,
and like that that makes me emotional thinking

637
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:23.199
about actually, and I wish,
like I don't wish. I'm glad they

638
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:28.840
didn't put the breast enhancement thing in
the movie, But I also wish we'd

639
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:34.199
gotten that side of Hamich in the
movie, because that is so It's so

640
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:40.760
clear in the book that he truly
viewed Catinus and Peter as his responsibility,

641
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:49.400
and him being like knowing that he
needed to be there during that time and

642
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:52.960
not just like slacking on his responsibilities
like everyone always says he does. He

643
00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:59.159
was there, he knew that they
would probably request something like that, and

644
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:04.320
he said, absolutely, not over
my dead body, you will. And

645
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.400
I think it's so important to show
that that people can be there for women

646
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:13.000
because like you know, obviously we
don't have the Hunger Games now in our

647
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:16.360
own real life right now, but
it's important to show that in other facets.

648
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:21.960
I think that people can stand up
for other people, especially women in

649
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.440
those instances when things like that happen. But I just thought it was just

650
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:37.079
it's so incredibly devious and evil to
make children fight for their lives anyway,

651
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.880
to kill each other, and then
to have it not even be over once

652
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:45.719
they leave the arena, Like leaving
the arena is just the beginning. You

653
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:49.199
are going to be fighting for the
rest of your life. And I think

654
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:53.239
it's so sad. In mocking Jay, when Catanists learns about everything that everyone

655
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:59.559
has been through, all the victors, Hey, Mitch, Joanna and Finnick,

656
00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:04.679
she thinks, would this have been
my life after? Not only would

657
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.280
she have had to pretend that she, you know, feel feelings for Peter

658
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:10.079
that she wasn't ready to admit to
or that she wasn't ready to feel,

659
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:17.360
but she would have also been subjected
to probably sexual assault and so many horrible

660
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:22.440
things. Her mother and sister may
have been killed in the process after she

661
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:25.920
tried so hard to save them,
and everyone she loved may have eventually died

662
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:34.519
anyway, And that's just it's it's
so so cruel, yeah, on the

663
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.960
Capital's part to do that, And
I think it's such a powerful point that

664
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:42.880
Colin's making here because I know that
she and she spoken openly about this,

665
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.639
that part of what she was trying
to get out with these books is the

666
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:50.840
culture of like you know, of
like glorification of violence and the way violence

667
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:54.840
has shown and you know, the
way people tear each other down from the

668
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:59.360
amusement of other people. And I
don't know if she talked about this specifically,

669
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:00.719
but I think one of the points
that it really makes in the books

670
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:05.920
is how there is in our culture. I mean very careful in my language

671
00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:08.000
here, because I don't want to
say that this is always bad, but

672
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:14.159
that there isn't our culture a lot
of linkages between violence and sexuality in ways

673
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.920
that are not focused on consent and
are not focused on like people choosing to

674
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.519
enjoy those in consensual ways, but
much more about the sexualization of violence and

675
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.079
the you know, making and vice
versa and all this kind of thing,

676
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:29.239
and like, you know, to
me, like one of the things I

677
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:30.920
thought about that when they're like,
oh, yeah, we need to give

678
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:35.719
her breast and prants implants now that
she's this victor, was how it's gotten

679
00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:37.440
a lot better, I know,
And now the women often have a lot

680
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:42.719
more control of it. But you
know, women wrestlers were incredibly sexualized,

681
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.559
or you know, if you think
about like the Lingerie football League or things

682
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:47.960
like this, like there's just all
this pressure on, oh hey, you're

683
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:52.960
a or even just like you know, the fights over what volleyball teams get

684
00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:54.239
to wear with the Olympics, and
I think to wear leggings or there's tiny

685
00:46:54.280 --> 00:47:00.239
little shorts or whatever. Like there's
such an attitude of in order to be

686
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:04.760
you know, athletic and powerful or
violent or just you know, strong,

687
00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:07.679
you also have to be sexualized.
And the books just because again it's so

688
00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:13.079
it's so blinking you miss it because
it is very tame, and they kind

689
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:15.280
of make a big deal about catness
being really approved in some fun way that

690
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:20.360
in the ways that you know,
like she has to look away when and

691
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:22.719
Finni talks about how fun it is
to try to get an under skame.

692
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.360
But I think part of what she
is getting at is that she's reacting to

693
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.039
the incredible sexualization of everything around the
Hunger Games in a way that yeah,

694
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:35.000
I mean, you can't show teenager
like there's no reason to show it,

695
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:37.320
because then I think that is just
adding to the sexualization of it. Yeah,

696
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:39.599
but to read about it, I
think it's really powerful. Well.

697
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:44.280
I think it's also like, I
think it's interesting that they were all for

698
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.639
catn As being this innocent little girl
when she showed up to the Hunger Games,

699
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.360
but then as soon as she's the
victor, she has to she has

700
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.400
to play a different part and in
order to stay interesting. And I see

701
00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:01.239
that a lot with young actors especially. I'm thinking, you know, like

702
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:06.880
Millie Bobby Brown and Sadie Sink that, you know, they start acting when

703
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:13.320
they're young, when they're children,
and society humors them, but then how

704
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:16.920
long does it take before you see
nasty, gross people in the comments of

705
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:22.199
Instagrams and uh, you know,
other social media as soon as they turn

706
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:29.360
eighteen? Ye, And it's just
it's just it's disgusting, and it's like

707
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.360
they're allowed to be innocent in the
beginning, but then once they reach a

708
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.519
certain point, they're no longer allowed
to be innocent. And and I think

709
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:39.840
that's so that's so devastating because you're
not only you're already having something taken from

710
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:45.719
you, and yet you can't keep
even this one thing that is supposed to

711
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:51.000
be yours and supposed to be your
choice. It's it's being taken from you

712
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.039
as well. Yeah, and and
to me, I think one, I

713
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:55.320
think it's a great example how it
happens in our own world. And to

714
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.719
me, one of the most damning
parts he is not only does the Capital

715
00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:01.639
do it, but District thirteen winds
up trying to do it to her.

716
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:07.039
And granted it's because it is stylists
from the Capitol, but they make her

717
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:10.000
look very sexy. They want her
to look like the mocking j Is this

718
00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:13.880
like sexually appealing, like I want
to, you know, follow her,

719
00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:15.320
I want to date her, I
want to be her. And and it's

720
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.800
you know, it takes you know, Hamich to kind of lead the session

721
00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:21.360
where they realize, like, no, wipe all that makeup off of her,

722
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:23.159
you know, let her look like
she's always looked, because even in

723
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:27.159
District thirteen, they're kind of still
doing that. Yeah, and Haymie,

724
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:29.199
I feel, like you said,
Haymich is still there to protect her.

725
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.400
Yeah. It really is one of
these. Correctly, I want to say

726
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:34.559
about Hamich that that I think you're
right. A lot of it doesn't come

727
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.679
through in the book, in the
in the movies, A detail that just

728
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:40.280
made me sob And it's at the
very end of the third book, we're

729
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:45.360
talking about how her and Haymidche and
Catnis, Hamidch, Peter and Catness and

730
00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:49.599
even like their families a bit put
together this book of like memories of all

731
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:53.760
the people they've lost, and in
it they say the Hamich tells stories about

732
00:49:53.800 --> 00:50:00.119
all of the tributes who came before. Yeah, and it just it's true

733
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:06.559
that he is so cold to them. I'm sorry, I'm yeah, but

734
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:08.239
because I think what it says is
that he has had he has had to,

735
00:50:09.159 --> 00:50:15.000
you know, really care about kids
for twenty years and every time watch

736
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:17.639
them die. Of course you're gonna
have to start wauling yourself off from that.

737
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:21.159
Of course you're gonna have to start
protecting yourself from that, you know.

738
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:24.519
And I think it just like like
Peter, as horrible as Hamich is

739
00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:28.599
at times, in that moment,
I was like, yeah, I completely

740
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:30.119
understand now who you are and why
you are and how much of a journey

741
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:36.719
you went on. Yeah. So
it's it was twenty four years before Catnis

742
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:43.400
and Peter came that Hamich had to
be a mentor. Because we don't know

743
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:52.360
how long the mentor before him,
Lucy gray Baird lived until and that's what

744
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:59.639
fifty plus kids that he had to
watch. He had to accompany to the

745
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:04.159
capitol and then go back home by
himself. Yeah, and without them,

746
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:07.519
And like what does that do?
Like, no wonder he ended up the

747
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:10.840
way he did. It's a wonder
he's survived. It's a wonder he didn't

748
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:17.119
do something drastic. And like it's
just I can't I can't imagine having to

749
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:22.559
live with that. It's just so
powerfully done well. And because we talked

750
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:24.880
about District thirteen, I want to
use that to talk about the last big

751
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.960
thing I want to talk about,
and then give you a chance with any

752
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.639
of the last things you want to
add. So in the start of the

753
00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:39.119
third book, Catness is so angry
that all these people had a plot to

754
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:44.519
get her out but to not get
pet and that they had been lying to

755
00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:52.599
her all along, including Hamish.
Was District was the conspiracy right to do

756
00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:53.880
it the way they did? Though? Because it does, she is an

757
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:59.880
essential part of overthrowing this horrible totalitarian
government. They almost replace it with another,

758
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:06.440
but they she's able to stop that. Were they right or were they

759
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:10.079
justified? Maybe? Is the better
question. It's it's tough because I understand

760
00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:19.800
why they didn't tell her or Peta, because their focus is on the mani

761
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:27.519
cataneis and PETA's focus would always be
in that moment because of what they've experienced

762
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:32.039
themselves, like each other, and
because they're the only two people I think

763
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:37.840
in the in their worlds that they
completely and utterly trust. There is no

764
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:39.960
one else I think, after after
they survived the first Hunger Games, there's

765
00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:45.880
no one else that they completely and
utterly trust except for each other. And

766
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:52.320
and so I understand why they didn't
tell them. Where I think they were

767
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:59.639
not justified is the goal to do
it, and it just expect that Catness

768
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.320
is going to go through with it, and just just expect that she's not

769
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:07.559
going to have any questions, that
she's not going to be upset. And

770
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:13.920
it just shows how much they truly
didn't understand her. No, I really

771
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.000
think that the only two people in
Katness's life who understood her or Haymage and

772
00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:25.320
Peta. I think Gail knows her, but he doesn't truly understand her and

773
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.320
doesn't understand what makes her tick,
what makes what is most important to her.

774
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:35.719
Catness doesn't care about a revolution.
She ultimately does, but it takes

775
00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:38.239
her some time to get there.
What's most important to her is always what's

776
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:40.880
right in front of her, because
that's that's what's important to a survivor.

777
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:45.280
When you have to survive every day, you're not thinking about ten years in

778
00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:50.159
the future. You're thinking about what
am I going to do tonight? How

779
00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.760
am I going to survive to tomorrow? And so it takes her some time

780
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:55.719
to get there, and I think
she she does. She does care about

781
00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:02.159
what is happening to people. She
does, but I can't imagine at sixteen

782
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:08.199
seventeen being forced into that that like
being forced to be a hero when she

783
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:13.119
does not want to be a hero, and she she doesn't want she does

784
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.360
wants to be, and I think
that's what's the most fascinating about her.

785
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.960
Yeah, it's right. I've never
thought about this until now, but you're

786
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:22.559
so right. One thing we talk
on this show a lot is about heroes

787
00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:25.039
people are claiming to be or given
that mantle. And I think one thing

788
00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:30.519
you often expect about a hero is
if you know there's a burning building,

789
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:32.199
and in one room there's the person
you love, and in another room there's

790
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:38.480
twenty anonymous people like you're gonna try
and save the twenty people, And I

791
00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:44.119
think there's some justification of like all
the things being equal, that that that's

792
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:49.559
the heroic thing to do, but
it's also like not everyone wants to sign

793
00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:52.400
up for that or can sign up
for that, And I kind of love

794
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:54.960
that these books are actually all about
flipping that on its head, because she's

795
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:59.199
very much not the hero in that
good regard. She's heroic, I think,

796
00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:01.840
and it is a hero different ways, because yeah, it's a question

797
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:07.760
I've wrestled with a lot, especially
because one of the things that kind of

798
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:09.840
struck me. And I don't think
they're the same at all. I don't

799
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.159
think these are on the same level
at all. And he might tell me

800
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:15.199
that I'm totally wrong, and I'm
probably how you hear it. But I

801
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:21.639
think there's some connection between them lying
to her about what their real goal in

802
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:24.079
the arena is and her lying to
Peta about what her real goal in the

803
00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:28.039
arena is. And I think that
there is, because it is there is

804
00:55:28.039 --> 00:55:30.719
still some level of like, but
the difference is she's trying to do it

805
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:36.280
for PETA's own good. They're trying
to do it because she thinks they will

806
00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:39.719
serve the nation's better good, you
know, and I think that it's a

807
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:45.760
hard to mealance, you know,
and good. Well, I think Katnets

808
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:51.599
justifies lying to Peta in that like
this is literally how they're going to survive

809
00:55:51.639 --> 00:55:54.199
to the next day. Like this
is literally how they're surviving. And this

810
00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:58.519
is what she gets. She gets
survival from day to day and how you're

811
00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:00.760
going to get there, how they're
going to make it to the next day

812
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:05.800
is if she plays along with their
perception of a romance between her and Peta

813
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:09.519
with with God be here, I
mean specific not that lie, I mean

814
00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:14.960
specifically when she is she has decided
that she's going to die in the arena.

815
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.159
Oh oh yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I do I do

816
00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:21.119
see I do? So what you
mean there? Do you know? Do

817
00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:23.079
you know? I think I think
both her and Peta knew that the other

818
00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:30.079
one knew what they were going to
do, and but they both but Catness

819
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:34.519
was naive enough to think that Haymich
wouldn't try to double play her, and

820
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:38.639
Peta expected that Haymich would try to
double play him. And uh, and

821
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:43.320
so that's why he says, you
know, I think Hamich probably made us

822
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:47.719
both promises, and like, I'm
not going to let him back out of

823
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:52.079
this one, or I'm not I'm
not going to allow the promise he made

824
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:57.400
to you supersede the promise he made
to me. And and so I think

825
00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:00.280
that was a little different. I
think that was a little different because is

826
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:04.400
I don't know if Catanis would have
lied Sepeda if she thought there was no

827
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:08.280
way he would know what she was
planning. I think that's definitely fair.

828
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:13.639
And yeah, I mean everything about
them. In some ways, it feels

829
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:17.599
like it is a slow motion version
of the scene between Clint and Natasha in

830
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.840
Avengers Endgame when they're both kind of
fighting to be Hugh's going to be the

831
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:27.119
one who's going to jump over and
die and to take one of the comparison

832
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:29.880
like that, I'm wondering if you
also had this feeling reading it through now

833
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:34.920
as I was reading and again thinking
about like the Republic and the not the

834
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:37.960
Republic, but like the rebellion and
like what is it doing and is it

835
00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:40.400
right or is it wrong? I
was really thinking, like to me,

836
00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:49.199
Plutarch and Gael and Luthan from and
or we're kind of they all kind of

837
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:52.320
remind me of the same, you
know, of the like they're doing things

838
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:59.559
that I find morally reprehensible. They're
also winning and they're overthrowing tyranny, and

839
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.480
I want to sit in judgment of
them. I also know that, like

840
00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:07.639
there is a greater good to what
they're doing and is just if I think

841
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:13.079
I think both properties are great because
it's not cut and dry like Prim dies

842
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:19.159
and that's horrible and terrible and the
capital falls, you know, and like

843
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:22.320
I think that last bombing so it
can't be justified anyway, but just it

844
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.320
just did means with both of them, I just really leaves me wondering,

845
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:29.960
Like I can't say for sure.
Well, what I think is interesting is

846
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:37.400
that Gail doesn't know that the last
bombings are planned. Yeah, he was

847
00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:44.000
part of the team that came up
with the that type of strategy, but

848
00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:46.880
I don't I truly, truly don't
think he knew based on his conversation he

849
00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:51.599
has with catanists at the very end, that that was part of the plan,

850
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:55.440
yeah or then, And he definitely
didn't know Prim was going to be

851
00:58:55.480 --> 00:58:58.840
there, even if he did know
the rest of it, which doesn't make

852
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:00.159
it any better if he didn't know
it, but didn't know prim was going

853
00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:04.159
to be there. But I truly
don't think he knew about any of that.

854
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:08.480
I don't know if Plutarch knew.
I don't know if that was just

855
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:15.920
a president coin thing. And I
would say he probably had a good idea,

856
00:59:16.599 --> 00:59:20.920
but maybe it was just enough in
the dark for like plausible deniability.

857
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:24.679
But I think it's interesting, like
when you hear snow and Snow it's such

858
00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:29.400
a manipulator that you can't really believe
much of what comes out of his mouth.

859
00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:32.440
But he didn't lie to catanists in
that instance. When he says he

860
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:37.159
was ready to surrender, there was
and when you look back at it,

861
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:45.719
there was no There was nothing else
he could have done. The rebel forces

862
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:51.559
were winning and so but what they
needed was for the public to hate Snow

863
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.800
as much as the rebellion did.
And the way to do that was to

864
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:59.880
make it look like he killed a
bunch of children. And I think the

865
01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:04.079
that is reprehensible, and I think
that that once Katness sees that is when

866
01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:07.719
she's like, you are absolutely no
better than the capital that we were trying

867
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:14.280
to get rid of, and I
will not allow you to take everything I've

868
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:21.000
been through for you, everything,
I lost, my sister, her friends,

869
01:00:21.039 --> 01:00:24.920
everything, and just turn this into
Capital two point zero. And I

870
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:29.079
think that was the most powerful thing
is that that's when Catnas steps up and

871
01:00:29.239 --> 01:00:34.719
becomes the hero, the like anti
hero or whatever you want to call it.

872
01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:38.039
That's when she becomes the person that
needs to do that does what needs

873
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:42.599
to be done but no one else
will do it. And I think that's

874
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:45.440
a beautiful moment for me when she
shoots coin instead of snow, because that's

875
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:51.280
her saying, this is me,
this is the mocking Jay you asked for.

876
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:54.320
I will do what no one else
is going to do and I don't

877
01:00:54.360 --> 01:01:00.480
care what the consequences are. And
that is just Catness's character all summed up

878
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:04.559
in that scene. It's really beautiful, it really is. And I think

879
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:07.440
reading that last book, I think
one of the things that really comes through

880
01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:12.679
it's hard to see is that you
know it's her compassion expanding because part of

881
01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:15.280
which happens is she learns compassion from
people in the Capitol. You know,

882
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:20.440
she'd already had it somewhat with Darius
the Peacekeeper, and then you know when

883
01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:23.920
he becomes an a box. But
then like you know, the like she

884
01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:29.079
I think she always feels kind of
weird about Plutarch, but like Cressida and

885
01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:31.960
the camera people, she really starts
to feel about them. The scene with

886
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:36.320
Tigress, this person who was like
who was a part of the games and

887
01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:38.320
it was, you know, part
of this machinery of death, but then

888
01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:42.880
got easily tossed aside because she made
a fashion choice that then went out of

889
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:46.599
favor, Like, yeah, to
me, it's all part of that that

890
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:50.639
when Snow wants to then say,
okay, so now we're going to do

891
01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:53.400
this to the Capitol's children, You're
right, that's I think it's it's the

892
01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:57.280
bombing and then it's that because those
are the two poements where she's like,

893
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:02.360
what Snow wants to do is to
allow it to teach all of the districts

894
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:07.000
to not to not see the capital
of fellow human beings, but to see

895
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:10.159
them as the enemy. Yeah,
or what Coin? What Coin wanted?

896
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:15.039
Yeah? Yeah, Yeah. It's
it's intense. And I love that about

897
01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:22.039
Catness because I love that she is
able to see and it's understandable how people

898
01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:25.840
aren't able to see this, Like
I understand why why Gail has no love

899
01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:30.519
for anybody from the capital, I
get it. Yeah, but Catness has

900
01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:35.360
experienced their compassion, and like I
say, that is her weakness, is

901
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:38.960
human compassion shown to her, and
once she feels it, once she sees

902
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:45.360
it, she's not able to ignore
it, and she then has to justify

903
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:47.320
it in her head. How are
they able to treat me with such kindness

904
01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:53.000
and yet celebrate the hunger games as
if they're not what they are? And

905
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:58.480
she realizes, she comes to realize, well, when you grow up in

906
01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:02.119
this, when you are on the
other side and it is just a game

907
01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:06.440
and you don't have to see the
consequences of it, you don't have to

908
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:10.559
truly experience the consequences and the horribleness
of it, then yeah, you would

909
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:15.400
probably become desensthetized to it, and
you would think it's normal if that is

910
01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:21.280
your everyday normal. And so she
doesn't excuse them, but she begins to

911
01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:24.159
understand them on a very human level. And not everyone is able to do

912
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:29.039
that, and that's understandable. But
the fact that Catness is I think is

913
01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:34.599
just part of what makes her such
a great and heartbreaking character. Yeah,

914
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.280
and I think it's her true and
I think it's it's one more of the

915
01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:40.679
great points that Collins is making about
this particular world, but also a world

916
01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:45.280
and general that you know, so
much of the evil that humans can do

917
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:49.280
to each other. It starts with
dehumanizing. You know, they're not like

918
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:52.800
us. They are different because they're
gay, or they're trans, or they're

919
01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:55.000
across that border, they worship a
different god, or they're different skin color,

920
01:03:55.119 --> 01:03:59.239
and like, you know, you
look in, you look in,

921
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:01.800
you know, and think from like
journals of slave owners up to like you

922
01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:06.679
know, racists on Twitter today.
Like is not to excuse it in anyway,

923
01:04:06.679 --> 01:04:11.119
but it's clear that there's like just
a lack of understanding of the humanity

924
01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:15.679
of someone else. And that a
lot of the ways that you know,

925
01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:18.800
part of why representation, I think
matters so much is it helps to human

926
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:23.480
It gives people a chance to see, Hey, this group that you always

927
01:04:23.480 --> 01:04:27.039
think of in these like idiot terms
that your uncle uses at Thanksgiving, here's

928
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:30.320
actually what that person actually is,
you know. And that the way in

929
01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:36.480
which her stylists, in particular,
because as Hamas recognizes, Peter humanizes her

930
01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:40.320
by being in love with her,
and now everyone in the capital sees her

931
01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:43.679
not just as one more tribute.
It's not really a person. We don't

932
01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:46.679
have to worry about them, but
someone who someone can love. Now everyone

933
01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:50.320
falls for her as well, and
they can't stomach because now she's a human

934
01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:53.920
being to them. Yeah, And
I think there's also something to be said

935
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:58.960
about the way they sensationalize the Hunger
Games in that it becomes something where the

936
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:04.119
tributes are celebrated and they're pampered in
the week before they go off to kill

937
01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:09.039
each other. And I can imagine
the Capital citizens and I think they do

938
01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:12.159
viewing the tributes, says, oh, this is such a wonderful opportunity for

939
01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:15.119
them, Like, oh, they
get to you know, they live in

940
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:19.599
such you know, squalor and horribleness
their entire lives, but then they get

941
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:23.719
to come to the Capital and experience
all this great stuff for a week.

942
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:27.719
And if they die, at least
they got to experience this. And then

943
01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:30.960
if they win, they get to
live the rest of their lives in a

944
01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:33.119
nice, fancy house in their district, and they get enough money that they

945
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:36.360
could ever need, and they get
to go to the Capital every year and

946
01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:42.320
experience that wealth again. And so
I could see I could see how like

947
01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:46.599
it is a very manipulative tap tactic
to get your own the capital citizens to

948
01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:53.480
think that this is actually a good
thing for those tributes, which is why

949
01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:58.199
two things. I'll say that One, as you say all that, one

950
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:00.480
of the first things that I heard
was, oh, no slaves benefited,

951
01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:02.719
they learn skills. Yeah, you
know, which is the thing that they're

952
01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:06.480
trying to teach in Florida the exact
same reasoning. But also it makes me

953
01:06:06.519 --> 01:06:11.320
really excited to at a later point
talk to you about Of Songs and of

954
01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:14.480
Snakes and Songbirds, because that book, for those who don't know it's it's

955
01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:17.079
a prequel. It's set during the
tenth Hunger Games, a long time ago,

956
01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:20.960
with an early and Snow's career,
and you really get a sense of

957
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:24.840
the Hunger Games aren't the spectacle that
they grew up to be, you know,

958
01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:27.159
and you see a lot of how
the Hunger Games became them. And

959
01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:31.159
yeah, well this has been awesome, Danielle. We're gonna have a patron

960
01:06:31.239 --> 01:06:33.559
section where we talk about something different, but it's one of the last things

961
01:06:33.639 --> 01:06:39.119
you want to say about what we've
been talking about and Hunger Games books,

962
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:42.480
and I mean, I'm definitely recommend
people check out your TikTok. You have

963
01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:44.840
so many other great thoughts, but
any other kind of questions you want to

964
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:46.880
raise or points you want to make, well. I have a theory I

965
01:06:46.920 --> 01:06:55.159
came up with in my last three
read where Buttercup Prim's cat is actually is

966
01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:59.920
actually a metaphor for Catness's character growth
throughout the series because, and I will

967
01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:04.599
give this very quickly, she appears
in the first chapter of each book.

968
01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:10.239
Buttercup is the only person besides Catness
who shows up in the first chapter or

969
01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:13.639
person. She's not a person,
She's a cat only other character besides Catness

970
01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:17.000
that shows up in the first chapter
of each book, And the way that

971
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:25.199
Buttercup changes in how she acts around
Catness is symbolic of the way Catness is

972
01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:30.360
changing the way she interacts with the
people around her. And I highly encourage

973
01:07:30.360 --> 01:07:32.920
anyone who is thinking of rereading the
books to pay attention to that, because

974
01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:35.960
I was blown away, and I
made a video about it, and I

975
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:40.800
genuinely would love to talk with Suzanne
Collins about that and ask if she intended

976
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:45.000
that, because it feels like it
I never thought of it. Tells saw

977
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:46.199
your video. And then I went
back and re read some of those early

978
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:50.559
chapters and one of things I realize
is something else they share, Like Buttercup

979
01:07:50.760 --> 01:07:57.599
is just a miserable hissing in everybody, mean to everybody except Plant, who

980
01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:03.480
he loves and takes care of.
Catanist shuts everybody out and justifiably is mean

981
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:10.559
to her mother and the only person
she shows softness towards is Prim. And

982
01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:14.559
then in book two they both kind
of come back to try and find Prim,

983
01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:20.119
and then in book three they eventually
bond over both missing Prima. Yeah,

984
01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:24.000
no, you're right, I think
there really is a way. They're

985
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:27.119
just so brilliantly written, and I'm
really like, I want to do like

986
01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:30.920
a full English class on these so
much we could talk about so well.

987
01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:32.319
Danielle, thank you so much for
being a part of this offer. People

988
01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:34.880
who do want to find out more
about these tiktoks you keep talking about and

989
01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:39.439
other creations you do, where can
they find you. I'm on TikTok at

990
01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:42.680
written in the Star Wars. I'm
also on Twitter at Danny s three ninety

991
01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:47.439
four and Instagram at written in the
sw Yeah, all those things definitely worth

992
01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:51.159
a follow, especially TikTok. I've
learned so much about Star Wars and other

993
01:08:51.199 --> 01:08:55.560
things like that. And right now
you're doing a lot of book content,

994
01:08:55.600 --> 01:08:58.520
which I really appreciate other creators who
are doing what I'm doing or trying to

995
01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:00.479
avoid the struck content. And I
really love what you've been doing there.

996
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:03.439
I found a lot of good books
that I want to read. So yeah,

997
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:05.920
definitely check out all this stuff to
any of those and of course I'll

998
01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:09.159
let us know what you think.
What do you check out all the stuff

999
01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:12.119
The Ethical Panda is doing. You
can find this podcast on my other podcast,

1000
01:09:12.159 --> 01:09:15.520
Star Wars Universe podcast. We are
finding lots of things to talk about

1001
01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:17.560
that aren't the movies and TV shows. We've talked about books, we have

1002
01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:21.079
an episode about lightsabers, We're doing
an episode about costplay. There's a lot

1003
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:24.479
of great content to talk about there. But of course, and you can

1004
01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:28.159
find all that on the website The
Ethical Panda dot com. But most importantly

1005
01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:30.560
on the website, you can find
all the ways to contact us Facebook,

1006
01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:34.000
email, Twitter, TikTok, whatever
you want to do. If you can

1007
01:09:34.039 --> 01:09:36.520
send a carrier pigeon, well no, not giving you my address, you

1008
01:09:36.520 --> 01:09:40.800
don't do that, but also not
good animals. But yeah, whatever you

1009
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:43.319
want to do, send us your
feedback. We had a backlog. We're

1010
01:09:43.359 --> 01:09:45.000
slowly working through it now, but
you know, send us your comments,

1011
01:09:45.079 --> 01:09:48.640
love to read them on air or
just you know, internalize them and talk

1012
01:09:48.680 --> 01:09:51.640
to you about it directly over email. Love talking to you as fans.

1013
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:56.039
So we're gonna go into the Patreon
in a second. We have changed things

1014
01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:58.039
a bit, so you're gonna hear
the end of music and then we'll be

1015
01:09:58.039 --> 01:10:00.920
the Patreon. We're gonna talk about
glubshit uh And for everyone else though,

1016
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:03.000
thank you so much for being a
part of this. We have spoken