WEBVTT

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Long Host Radio. Welcome to Open
Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds

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Radio is the UFO news authority presenting
evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO

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phenomenon. Here's your host, Alejandro
Rohat. Thank you mister Bob Dean for

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your wonderful intro. It is so
welcoming and warm and just as as mister

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Dean is, thank you everybody for
being here at Open Minds Radio, your

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UFO news authority. We have a
magnificent show. I wanted to choose the

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right word that was most accurate to
describe today's show, and that word is

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magnificent. We have Greg bischopon and
I'm excited to have him because he wrote

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a book called Project Beta about the
story of Paul Benewitz, national security and

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the creation of a modern UFO myth. Now he's not saying that UFOs are

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a total myth, but a lot
of what we believe about UFOs we do

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because these jokesters, you know,
back in the seventies and eighties working for

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the Air Force, we're feeding the
UFO field a bunch of malarkey, and

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it's important for us to know the
MARLARKI that they were spewing, so we

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look in the right direction as opposed
to creating more fantastical stories around what was

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already fantastical malarkey in the first place. People, we got to be a

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little careful here, come on show
a little discernment, my friends. But

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great Bishop's a great guy. He's
a writer, radio host. He's editor

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of Excluded Middle magazine. He writes
for the website UFO mystic dot com.

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He has his own radio show,
which we'll talk a little bit about.

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And this book was great because you've
heard me talk about Dody before, and

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I bring him up because he was
the guy who worked for the Air Force

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who was putting out a lot of
these stories, and a lot of these

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stories we believe in, you know, come from this era. So we

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have to remember that Dody did this. And right now when he's talking about

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certain stuff, you know, like
Project Sirpo is something that Dody says,

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Oh yeah, it's a real deal. Well, how can we trust you,

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my friend, mister Doty, I
hear you're a great and nice guy,

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but how can we trust you when
you have contradicted yourself so many times?

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We talked to Linda Moulton Howe not
too long ago where she told us

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about an encounter she had with him
as well. Anyway, Greg Bishop is

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on the show, and so this
is going to be a great one.

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And he also is going to be
speaking at a conference coming up called wake

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Up Now Conference. It's in Albuquerque, New Mexico, March twenty nine to

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May first. There's a lot of
speakers there, some interesting people. My

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buddy Claude Swanson is going to be
there, I know, so there's gonna

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be it's gonna be a lot of
fun. You could go to wake Upnow

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Conference dot com and I'm wanna do
that right now, so I can tell

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you who else is gonna be there. See some of these names, some

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of these people I don't know.
Kawani laps Writis, I know him.

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He's a pretty neat guy. Nrio
Hayakawa is actually the guy who puts it

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on. He's really into Dolce,
which we're going to talk about in a

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minute here related to mister Doty.
And then Richard Dolan, one of everybody's

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favorites. He's been on the show
a couple of times. So it looks

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to be a fun conference. I
love New Mexico, so check that out

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a couple other things. I wanted
to mention the Contact in the Desert and

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this is an event going on June
third through the fifth, being put on

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by mouf on LA great group out
there. Steve Morillo is my buddy who

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still hasn't put me on the website. He said, oh, you called

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me out. Well you said I
didn't put you on the website. Well

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you still haven't, Steve, Come
on, buddy. But that's gonna be

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a lot of fun. This is
gonna be in Joshua Tree. It's gonna

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be kind of a camp out with
UFO speakers. Like I said, Contacting

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the Desert dot com is a website
for it. I'm very excited for this

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one. I know Roger Lure is
going to be there, Von Smith,

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Stan Romanek, and a lot of
other really cool people. I hope,

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I hope there's no non cool people, because I'm a cool people. I

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like cool people. Everybody's cool in
my eyes. I like everybody. You

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guys can tell that already. I
don't know if there's anybody I don't like

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that's in this field. That much. Contact in the Dessert is gonna be

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a lot of fun. I also
want to thank Todd van Hooser. They

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call him mister van Hooser at the
high school Desert Edge High School because he

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had kind of a little sci fi
conference there at the high school, which

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was kind of neat. He invited
us, We did a talk and we

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had a table there. He's an
author. He writes these books called the

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Laughing Moon Chronicles. If you're into
sci fi, maybe you know these books

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or not sci fi fantasy. They're
these fantasy books and he also has some

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fantasy games around them. So I'm
not too familiar with this new kind of

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Dungeons and Dragons type of role playing
game they have now, where it's all

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you have these models and you have
these little characters and it looks kind of

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cool, and you set up like
a little town or something, and then

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you roll the dice and you probably
kill monsters and maybe even your opponent's there

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with your warriors and your magic and
stuff like that looks like a lot of

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fun. Anyways, I want to
thank him for having us there. That

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was really cool and a lot of
fun. And it's great that he is

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trying to inform the high school students
and more than that, getting them off

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of their computers and their TV and
getting them together on a weekend to actually

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have some face to face interaction so
they can be socially competent human beings in

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the future. That's very important,
I think very important to humanity that high

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schoolers gets socialized. One of the
other things that's going on that's really cool

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is that we've been doing this news
thing on the website. We found this

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to be popular and helpful for people. We put up news headlines from around

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the world on a regular basis on
our website and there's a lot going on.

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And then what we do is we
bring this cool kid, Jason onto

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the Race Show to tell us all
about the news. And we're lucky enough

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to have him right now, If
Jason McClelland give us some news, buddy,

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I think I will. Alejandro,
thank you, sir. This is

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your Open Minds News brief for Monday, April eighteenth, two thousand eleven.

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Is that the right date, Alejandro
on the eighteenth, That is correct?

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All right, Thank you, sir. Stop me if you've heard this one.

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I'm kidding. A Russian physicist from
the Institute for Nuclear Research of the

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Russian Academy of Sciences recently put forth
a new theory stating that advanced civilizations may

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inhabit the interiors of supermassive black holes, being invisible from the outside and basking

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in the light of the central singularity
and orbital photons. Basically, this guy

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thinks that the inside of a charge
and rotating black hole is a suitable place

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for planets with alien life to exist. This new theory comes after a twenty

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tenth theory by a professor from Indiana
University that proposed Earth could actually be inside

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a black hole? Are we inside
a black hole? Alejandro? I don't

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know. Sometimes it feels like it. I contur this story is especially funny,

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and I'm sure and ironic because what
was it just last week or the

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week before where another scientist said there's
probably no alien life out there because they

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probably all got sucked up and destroyed
by UFOs. That is a very good

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point, and I'm glad you brought
that up. Isn't it funny how we

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go back and forth. It's all
just very speculative speculation. It's really funny.

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People looking for more papers write Alejandro, Yeah, and who knows where

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the aliens are? They're probably in
our nose. Like Paul Davies says,

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a lot of people think that.
I know, I've been itching my nose

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a lot more lately. Tip's allergy. The season's changing. That could be

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one cause. But it is interesting
to think. And you know, I

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remember this this theory coming out last
year about Earth possibly being in a black

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black hole. These are interesting things
to think about, but you know,

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we really have no way of knowing. And there the movie black Hole,

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they had some really cool little robot
buddies though, and I would like to

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have those robot buddies, like Wally, did you see the movie black Hole?

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I don't think so. It's a
really old one. It's like maybe

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seventies. This movie about this ship
getting stuck in this black hole and it

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was you know, uh take it
over by this It's kind of like I

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was a modernization of twenty thousand leagues
under the sea. This crazy guy had

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built this ship and he had these
robots that ran it, and there were

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these really cool little hover robots.
I know, you like Johnny five,

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you'd like this movie. Well,
I'll have to check it out. You

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keep giving me great movies to watch, so I'll add that one to the

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list. YEP. In other news, UFO sightings seem to be getting more

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attention lately and more people are actively
looking for UFOs, and because of this,

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a UFO hotline was just launched by
Joseph Kapp in Brooklyn, New York.

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According to AOL News, Who's Cap
decided to start a twenty four hour

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hotline where people can discuss UFO sidings
without fear of ridicule. Of course,

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other UFO hotlines already exist, like
the one the National UFO Reporting Center has

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and the one Mutual UFO Network has, but it's nice to see mister Cap

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willing to devote his time to listening
to witnesses. That is a huge commitment.

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Yeah, he's a busy little guy
there. I know him. He's

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a neat guy. And I like
your graphic. They're kind of a red

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phone hovering in Manhattan. That's actually
outside of Manhattan. That's Brooklyn, Brooklyn

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with a UFO kind of hanging out
with it. That's pretty foun I figure

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a hotline, you've got to have
a red telephone. Every hotline is a

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red telephone. Yeah, but kudos
to that guy, and good luck to

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him. I mean, I and
twenty four hours. I don't know if

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he's manning it all himself. Well, I think that's what Peter Davenport does,

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right, He certainly does, and
that takes a lot of a lot

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of devotion, a lot of dedication
there, and especially with something that people

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get so passionate about like UFO sightings. I mean, when people see a

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UFO, they get all jazzed up
and they want to tell their story and

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they want somebody to listen to them. And unfortunately, more times than not,

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it's difficult to find people to listen
to you when you have that story.

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To hell. That's why I think
it's amazing that move On gets hundreds

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of reports a month, because first
of all, people don't even know who

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they are, so how are they
supposed to find you know, they are

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able to find move On in the
first place, right and then report so

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Lord can only imagine how many sightings
are going to be going unreported. Well,

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I think it's incredible how people found
places to give their reports before the

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Internet existed. Now we hop on
the Internet, we can do a quick

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search and UFO report sighting and various
searches and find many places to report sightings.

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I'm surprised that life existed on the
planet without the Internet. Oh it

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didn't. That's just a myth.
Hey, I'm starting to believe that.

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Let's move on with other news.
Another man has the interest of UFO believers

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in mind, and that is Lewis
Romeo, and he plans to open a

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UFO motel in Baker, California.
He currently owns Alien Fresh Jerky, and

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after seeing his store attract so many
UFO believers who enjoy having a place to

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share stories, he decided to move
forward with plans to build his motel that

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will be in the shape of a
saucer and it will include twenty UFO themed

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grooms. Romayo told AOL News,
in addition to offering delicious, high quality

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jerky, We've been able to create
a place here just like a haven for

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believers. That's important because for many
of us it's hard to tell who to

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trust with these stories. Here there
is trust, just as there will be

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at the UFO Motel. He hopes
to have the UFO Motel open in two

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years. That sounds fun. I'd
go to a UFO motel. Yeah,

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I hope that. I would like
to earn the right to be a guest

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of honor there. Kind of fun. You could have the Aljada Rojas Suite.

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That would be neat. Yeah.
So this this jerky store apparently used

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to be located in Nevada, was
around Area fifty one, and the guy

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claims that he's sort of got muscled
out by people who worked at Area fifty

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one and other strange government entities.
They come in and take pictures and leave,

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and it sort of create an unwelcome
atmosphere for him. So he packed

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up and moved to Baker, California, and he's been very successful there.

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He's got a huge store and so
successful that he's going to build a motel.

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So is it a conspiracy or is
it that his jerky wasn't very good?

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Well, judging by the pictures I've
seen of his store, his jerky's

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probably pretty good. He's got a
pretty big store, and it's sort of

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like a mini museum too. He's
got little statues and other memorabilia there.

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It looks like a cool shop.
So, and obviously it's all enough of

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it to build a hotel office.
It's great. Yeah. In other news,

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New Zealand, New zealand'sin a hot
topic lately, and it's proven itself

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to be a major UFO hotspot with
regular UFO sightings. A strange flaming ball

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of light is just one sighting among
many and recent flood of sightings. Residents

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observed the flaming ball in the night
sky above Juera. Is that how you

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say that, Alejandro? I don't
know, you know the name where?

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Those cities were difficult for me?
All right, we'll go with Hawera last

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Tuesday, and according to Stuff,
New Zealand's award winning news and information website,

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one resident described the object as a
flamy type object with a dark shadow

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on top, which looked to be
a pyramid shape with a round top.

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I don't know how pyramid has a
round top, but yeah, that's what

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he described it as. And after
the object hovered in the sky, the

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witness explained it turned its flames off
and it looked like it was cooling down.

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Strange lights in the skies above Hawera
and the surrounding areas have been common

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in recent months. According to Stuff, the Airways Corporation responsible for monitoring New

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Zealand air traffic has no explanation for
the UFOs and recorded nothing unusual last Tuesday

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night when the strange flaming ball of
light was witnessed by residents. Yeah,

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lots of sightings and there's it's cool
that they've been printing them. And it's

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funny because the website is called stuff
stuff dot co dot nz. But that's

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not like just some goofy site.
That's a big news site, right,

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big New Zealand news site. It's
just got a funny name stuff. So

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every time I post that next step
news like from the Daily Telegraph or from

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CNN or these other very newsy type
of names, and then you put stuff

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from New Zealand. But they're better
than these tabloids like out of the UK

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that we have a lot of stories
from, like the Sun. That's right,

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00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:02.799
it's good stuff. Yep, good
stuff. Got another New Zealand story

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00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:07.919
here. Shortly after the media New
Zealand reported UFO sidings last week, a

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00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:12.000
video showing a strange multicolored UFO was
sent to three News in New Zealand.

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00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:18.919
The video allegedly shows a UFO above
Hamilton, but three News hasn't been able

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to reach the videos submitter, so
apparently somebody just sent a video into them.

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And it's a neat video to watch
because this thing in the sky changes

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colors. It's blue and red and
green. Pretty cool. And so three

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00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.919
News tried to contact the person who
submitted the video, but they haven't been

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00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.679
able to reach him for comment.
It'd be cool to get some more information

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00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:45.039
from him. Yeah, and the
movement was weird. It's not like it

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00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:49.039
didn't seem like one single object changing
colors. It was kind of like different

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00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.799
parts of one object or changing colors, or maybe it was spinning. It

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was tough to tell. Yeah,
it was a great video. And that

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happened sometimes even when I was with
Moufon with investigation. Sometimes people would submit

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a siding and then they don't want
to be contacted. They're either afraid of

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00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:12.319
ridicule or sometimes they're like they think
the government's going to come after them or

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00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:18.720
something. Yeah, that's the sad
state of affairs. But also in this

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video, you know, it's really
boggling. It is this object in the

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sky and something that moves wildly and
sort of out of control like this thing

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did with all of its flashy colors
and stuff. It certainly could be some

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sort of some type of toy or
something. Yeah, I guess so,

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because toys are flashy. That's what
toys are supposed to be. Flashy,

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00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.599
and yeah it was. I mean
it looked like it passed over a tree,

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right, it looked like it was
up in the sky. So,

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but you never know, could have
been one of those helicopter ethingies that wasn't

231
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:57.200
necessarily a high priced, smooth flying
helicopter ethingy. But yeah, something you

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kind of throw up and it wobbles
around with light. Yeah, that's the

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00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:07.319
first one. That's the first time
I've heard someone try to debunk a UFO

234
00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:12.319
story saying it's a helicoptery thingy.
I've read helicoptery thingy many times. At

235
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:17.880
least you didn't say it was a
sea monkey like doctor and I did that

236
00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.119
one time. No, I don't
even call him a doctor. No,

237
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:22.519
I have no idea what that thing
is. And this guy, it's really

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00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.680
cool, and I do hope three
News gets the hold of this guy and

239
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.279
get the more details about the siding
and where he was, how he captured

240
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.960
this thing, and if there's any
more information about it. Yeah, and

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00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:34.799
if you're listening, don't be afraid, you know, buddy, be strong,

242
00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.880
be bold. Absolutely would love to
find out what that thing is.

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00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:44.799
Great well. Legendary actress Shirley McLain
appeared on Oprah Winfrey's show last week,

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00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.240
where she discussed many topics, including
UFOs. McLain is a strong believer in

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00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.920
extraterrest real life, and on the
show, she shared one UFO encounter that

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took place at her new Mexico home. She explained an instance where three UFOs

247
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:02.759
appeared and hovered over her hot tub
for ten minutes. Now, Alejandro,

248
00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.319
you know, I enjoy spending time
in my hot tub at home on an

249
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almost nightly basis, and I am
always staring up at the sky because it's

250
00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.640
the perfect time to stare at the
sky. And I still haven't seen anything

251
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.720
while sitting in my hot tub.
Give it time, my friend. But

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00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:22.079
here, Shirley McLean says that,
yeah, she had these three UFOs up

253
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.359
here. She has so many UFO
stories. But she also claims to have

254
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.839
seen a mother ship at one time. Yeah. Yeah, she may be

255
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:36.880
a bit liberal and interpretating what a
UFO is, but you know, it

256
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.440
reminds me of the story of the
Little Buddies that I talked about in South

257
00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.759
Park last week, where the guy
was hanging out in his hot tub and

258
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:48.400
he would see the UFO sometimes.
That's right, Maybe hot tubs are a

259
00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.640
good place to be. Yeah,
I hear a nice and relaxed, perfect

260
00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:53.559
timing, Except you're not going to
jump out of the hot tub and grab

261
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.680
a camera. I know. That's
what I think every time I'm sitting in

262
00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.920
my hot tub tun and looking at
the sky and saying, if I thought

263
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.400
something right now, how am I
going to work this? Yeah? I

264
00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.599
do relax. I figure out how
to flop out, run in and dry

265
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.480
myself off so I don't destroy my
camera with the water on me hm hmm.

266
00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:11.960
Yeah, I'll have to think think
about that war and had the camera

267
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.920
sitting in a better place. Yeah. Well. A new trailer for the

268
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:22.319
upcoming film Cowboys and Aliens debuted last
week during the popular television show American Idol,

269
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showing just how confident the film's creators
are that the movie will appeal to

270
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.559
a large audience. This movie is
being heavily marketed, with trailers premiering to

271
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.000
the largest audience as possible. A
teaser trailer for Cowboys and Aliens debut during

272
00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:40.119
the Super Bowl earlier this year,
the largest US television audience were single broadcasts.

273
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.000
Ever, the latest trailer was shown
during American Idol. One of the

274
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.240
most watched programs currently on television,
so it's interesting. Alejandro again an example

275
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:56.519
of these big production companies marketing to
very large audiences, which means they're spending

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a lot of money. They're confident
that people are going to go see it.

277
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Yeah, are you going to go
see it? Ah? Probably?

278
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I love one of the one of
the headlines or lines taglines to this movie

279
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.119
I saw recently. I believe it
was from a paper in the UK.

280
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I don't recall which one, but
it said something like Indiana Jones and James

281
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:26.440
Bond fight aliens because the two lead
actors in the movie are Harrison Ford and

282
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.400
but they left the character the other
the main character Daniels. Oh it's name,

283
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:38.160
I can't remember, Daniel Craig or
something like that. But yeah,

284
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.240
funny headlines. But this movie looks
great. They're really hyping it up now

285
00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:47.640
and it still doesn't come out until
later in the summer. Well, last

286
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:52.680
week we mentioned the media attention garnered
by the vaults that was recently launched on

287
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.240
the FBI's website, which allows people
to browse through select FBI files. Files

288
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:02.279
that many believed to be related to
the Roswell incident received lots of attention from

289
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:04.559
the media early last week, while
later in the week the focus seemed to

290
00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:10.599
shift to files about cattle mutilation.
Several FBI memos discussed bizarre mutilations that took

291
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place in New Mexico, Nebraska,
and Colorado. The Sun recently interviewed Nick

292
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.720
Pope, who worked for the Ministry
of Defense, about these documents. Pope

293
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.079
told The Sun, these documents show
how serious the authorities took the matter and

294
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:30.400
that they were prepared to debate theories
about extraterrestrial involvement. Yeah, it was

295
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:33.720
similar to the Condon Report or any
of these other reports where there were some

296
00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.559
really good cases that were unsolvable,
but in the end they just said,

297
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:41.519
oh, it's all predators. Yeah, when obviously you read these cases,

298
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that can't be the answer for everything. And our last story, a couple

299
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in East Texas found what appeared to
be crop circles in their yard. Last

300
00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:56.960
week, four circles mysteriously appeared in
their yard, and they told KLTV that

301
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they had a hard time believing that
any person or animal could have created the

302
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:03.799
circles, and apparently plants and bushes
in close proximity to these circles have been

303
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:10.640
affected. One BlackBerry bush in particular
now has dead limbs and stopped producing berries.

304
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.680
And they talked about this plant and
said that the just a week before

305
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:21.599
this happened, this BlackBerry bush was
producing all sorts of berries, then all

306
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.279
of a sudden, no more.
Yeah, that's very strange, and it's

307
00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:27.920
not the first time there's been effects
on plants from this sort of thing.

308
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:30.920
Right, Well, Allehundro, that
is it's for the news. Remember to

309
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.920
check out these stories and more at
openminds dot tv, your source for UFO

310
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.680
related news. Your Open Minds correspondent
Jason McLellan, and you've been briefed back

311
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.119
to you, Alejandro. Thanks for
the brief, Jason, you got it.

312
00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:47.960
A couple of quick notes before we
get into our interview. We have

313
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:52.279
a couple of articles that you're going
to want to check out on the website.

314
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:57.640
Michael Schratt did a great article on
the different types of UFO shapes that

315
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:04.440
are out there. You might have
seen his running series called I've talked about

316
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:10.759
it before, but UFO Case Files
revealed where he kind of takes UFO cases

317
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:15.079
and then makes a drawing of what
the UFOs look like. So now he's

318
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:18.519
kind of done a general idea of
what are the different types of shapes,

319
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:21.759
and you can see some of his
graphics in there too, so you want

320
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:27.160
to check that out. The other
one, it's the granddaughter of Sheriff George

321
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:33.599
Wilcox in Corona, New Mexico.
He was actually a Chavez County sheriff,

322
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.480
but his office was in Corona,
New Mexico in nineteen forty seven, which

323
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:45.319
is closest to the Foster ranch where
the UFO material was found. Mac Brasel,

324
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.000
who found it, brought it into
Corona to show the sheriff, and

325
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:53.000
the sheriff called the Roswell Army Airfield
and that's how everything got started. His

326
00:24:53.119 --> 00:25:00.720
granddaughter kind of talks about how she
didn't know her grandfather died a couple of

327
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:07.039
years before she was born, but
that she, you know, in the

328
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:11.759
aftermath and learning about the story and
then having her own signing later on,

329
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.039
she kind of shares what her family
went through during the time, you know,

330
00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:22.640
how her family's kind of how they
dealt with all of this, and

331
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.519
it's a very interesting story. We
have a story on the website and then

332
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:32.759
there's a video embedded because on our
YouTube we also have a video that we

333
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.839
did with her, so you're gonna
have to check that out. It's a

334
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.240
lot of fun and she seems like
a really neat lady, so you'll have

335
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.279
to. Her name is Christine Tulk. You have to check this out on

336
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:51.440
the front page of our website.
But without further ado, let us move

337
00:25:51.480 --> 00:26:00.440
on to our wonderful interview with Greg
Bishop. Okay, I am happy to

338
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.559
have Greg Bishop with us. Greg, are you there? Yeah, I'm

339
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:10.400
here. Great. Well, we
just finished, or I just finished not

340
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.880
too long ago, reading your book
Project Data, which is really exciting for

341
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:19.279
me because I've brought up on the
show Richard Dodie and some of that type

342
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:23.720
of those events that happened back then. Because I think, as you put

343
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:30.400
in your book, that whole era
with Benowitz, so much UFO mythology was

344
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.240
started back then, and it's a
really important period of time, and it

345
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.880
seems to be kind of just swept
under the rug these days. Yeah,

346
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.920
people don't want to hear about it
because it's not very exciting. It doesn't

347
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.960
make a lot of UFO people look
very good, but a lot of them

348
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.160
aren't really around anymore. Yeah.
Well, you know, I think the

349
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.920
main thing is that it doesn't have
anything to do with aliens from other planets

350
00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.680
or exciting things like that, so
people don't really care about it. And

351
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:02.599
also it doesn't you know, why
have people's dreams and fears and all that

352
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.960
broken up Because I guess people don't
like that. I like mysteries, you

353
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:14.720
know, I like recare and normal
I like trying to figure out what's going

354
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:17.480
on with it, And the weirder
the story is, the more it excites

355
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:22.039
me. However, when there's something
like well, we've you know, I

356
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.039
found out during the course of the
book that a lot of stories that were

357
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.519
making the rounds in ufology, as
you said back then and still do now,

358
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.839
about underground bases et cetera, deals
with aliens for abduction rights and all

359
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.799
that that was started back then and
people still believe that, and that came

360
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:42.920
out of a disinfo operation, which
means it's either partially or mostly untrue.

361
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:45.720
A lot of it. Some of
it I think is totally untrue, but

362
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:51.119
you know, you can never say
for sure with the you know, UFO

363
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:56.279
circles and rumors, et cetera.
Right, So let's get into some of

364
00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.240
that and maybe we could start up
I mean, the heart of the story

365
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.880
is that this poor guy, Paul
Benowett, I guess you could call him

366
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:10.559
a scientist, yet he's very scientifically
apt, who had his company there over

367
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:14.119
by Kirkland Air Force Base. Maybe
you can, in a nutshell give us

368
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:19.200
night how this all started with BENOWITTZ
Well, as you said, he was

369
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:23.759
trained scientifically at a master's degree in
electrical physics, at least as I think

370
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.720
he did. Yeah, I said
so in his obituary, So yes he

371
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:32.039
did. And he had started his
own company called Thunder Scientific, which still

372
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:36.599
exists. His son's run it now, or one of his sons to run

373
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.640
it anyway. He had. This
was in the late seventies, about nineteen

374
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:47.000
seventy eight. He lived right next
to Kirkland Air Force Base, which is

375
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:52.000
this large, large air force base
next to Albuquerque. And the thing about

376
00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:00.480
this base is a lot of defense
testing, black budget things. Different government

377
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.599
contractors, laboratories are there. They
do a lot of they work on a

378
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:08.480
lot of secret projects. It's one
of the funnest areas to look at in

379
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:15.200
Google Earth because when you look in
all of the different areas like the Manzano

380
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.680
Mountain or things outside of it,
there's so many weird things, and of

381
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.240
course with Google you can kind of
click on them and people say, you

382
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:27.279
know, their opinions of what's going
on there, but laser testing and testing

383
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:33.759
of nukes and all kinds of crazy
stuff. Yeah, all that stuff's going

384
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.119
on there. I don't know if
they test nuclear material. However, at

385
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:44.680
the time they did store it was
the largest they did have on the base,

386
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:51.839
the largest storage underground storage of nuclear
weapons components in the world. Yeah.

387
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:53.519
I think they still do. They
just moved them from the mountain to

388
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:57.599
and more secret kind of underground placed
in the desert. That's still on the

389
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:02.279
base. Oh, I did not
know that. Yeah, kind of weird.

390
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.519
There are not as many nuclear weapons
and the Cold War is not really

391
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:12.039
on anymore. There's a different kind
of war going on. But at the

392
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.920
time that was all stored in Monzano
Mountain, which, like you said,

393
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:19.359
if you go on Google Earth,
you can see all these entrances into the

394
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:25.160
mountain, like hundreds of them.
It looks like, yeah, underground bunkers

395
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.119
you can see. I don't know, I hollowed out. But in nineteen

396
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.759
forty seven, strangely enough, the
mountain was dugout and used to store these

397
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:38.599
nuclear bomb components, and some people
even say bombers, you know, whole

398
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:45.759
airplanes and stuff went in there.
I think it had some structural problems and

399
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.559
it's leaking and all that in the
intervening years, which is why they haven't

400
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.759
used it as much. But Benowitz
lived next door to all this, and

401
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:56.000
Heath was he would for some reason
go out on his porch at night.

402
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.880
I never knew why. Maybe his
attention was drawn, but you know,

403
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:04.680
like at one o'clock in the morning
in the winter when it's like zero or

404
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:10.359
below there, or at least below
freezing, and he saw these lights flying

405
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.480
around, so he started taking video
of them. I think he had some

406
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:19.960
video equipment eight millimeters cameras, and
he's actually a UFO. I don't know

407
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.319
if he was a researcher but at
that point, but he was certainly interested

408
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:30.279
in them. He saw these strange
lights flying around silently around the Curland Air

409
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.839
Force Base. And contrary to what
I think I wrote in the book,

410
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.960
they didn't do anything very strange.
They would just lift up off the ground

411
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.880
silently, probably from a mile or
two away from his house, fly over

412
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:45.000
Monzano Mountain, and then drop on
them behind it. And they did this

413
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:51.799
over and over again, night after
night after night. So he thought that

414
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:56.200
these were UFOs, like alien UFOs
as the classic way that people think about

415
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.759
it. So he told the people
at the base about it. So they

416
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:04.119
they said, why don't you come
in and talk to us about this,

417
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.559
because of course they wanted to know
what he knew and how he knew it.

418
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.839
These were classified, you know,
a secret test of things, and

419
00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:14.200
they didn't want anybody to know.
Supposedly, as I found out that they

420
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.759
were, they were probably unmannarial vehicles, but they were very unconventional ones because

421
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.559
they were glowing, they were glued, they glowed at night, and they

422
00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:25.279
were kind of orb shaped, so
that's kind of strange. Anyway, this

423
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:29.599
all happened right on the base,
so obviously they knew what was going on,

424
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:32.200
and all the other people have told
me he actually saw people walking around

425
00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:37.799
them with flash flights and stuff before
they took off, so obviously they knew

426
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:42.039
what was going on. Anyway,
he wanted to tell them about this.

427
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.559
As it turned out, the only
people that were interested in it were the

428
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.279
base security people because they wanted to
know, Like I said, what he

429
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:51.920
was looking at, how he's finding
out what he was finding out he had

430
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:57.440
also built an apparatus to listen to
radio transmissions, and he told them about

431
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.440
that. What these radio transmissions were
were another secret project I think, having

432
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:07.319
to do with telemetry or control of
satellites or or missiles or maybe even these

433
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:14.359
things that were flying. Anyway,
over the course of a few years,

434
00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:21.759
probably four or five years, he
got more paranoid about some sort of alien

435
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.960
invasion he thought was coming, and
he told this to the Air Force,

436
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:30.599
and because they wanted to keep him
in their confidence, they encouraged him.

437
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:31.480
They said, oh, yeah,
sure, we want to know more about

438
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:34.960
this, because they just wanted to
keep them on the line, one to

439
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.240
keep them looking at stuff, and
two to find out who was talking to

440
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:43.400
in case he was leaking information to
the Russians or the Chinese or whoever.

441
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:49.160
The upshot of all this is that
eventually his family had him committed to a

442
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:55.920
mental institution because he had a nervous
breakdown. And the classic version of the

443
00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.319
story before I got involved in it, was the government drove him nuts.

444
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:07.000
Well, they did help. He
probably could have done it himself, but

445
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.480
not in such a severe fashion because
he completely trusted the government. I mean,

446
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:14.000
that was his Achilles Heel. I
think so yeah. I mean,

447
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.719
he's culpable in it, but the
government bears a great deal of responsibility for

448
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:22.760
it, although not all of it. I was able to talk to people

449
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.079
that were talking to him, involved
with him, looking in on him,

450
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:29.480
spying on him, breaking into his
house, and looking at his pictures and

451
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:34.960
all that. I talked to those
people and relayed that information in the book,

452
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.760
and some of the things that he
came up with and that possibly were

453
00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:42.960
told to him and given to him, ended up, as we were talking

454
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.239
earlier, as part of the bedrock
of a lot of conspiracy theories having to

455
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:54.199
do with UFOs ever since then.
And these were spread and encouraged by people

456
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:00.239
in the government who most of them
who will probably will never know who they

457
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:06.440
were, And then also a few
UFO researchers like John Lear and I think

458
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:10.639
to some extent Alexander, and then
a few other people that were well Alexander

459
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:16.039
was in the military, but mostly
the UFO researchers that would latch onto these

460
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:20.440
crazy stories and then just believe them
because they said, well, it came

461
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:22.920
from a government contact who told me
this secretly. I want to get the

462
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:27.840
information out, so it must be
true, which doesn't follow at all,

463
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.119
but it got people very excited for
a long time, and I think it's

464
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:36.119
to some extent still like that.
That's the story and as much of a

465
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.440
nutshell as I could make it.
No, that's a great Yeah. I

466
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:42.960
think he did a great job with
that, and they were feeding him then

467
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:49.800
the Air Force and at the counterintelligence
or whoever in his contact. A lot

468
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:55.000
of pretty zany stories. But essentially
there's two theories, and I wanted to

469
00:35:55.079 --> 00:36:00.639
hear what your current one is asked
to why they would do that? One

470
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:05.400
is that to discredit him. So
if let's say the Russians came along because

471
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.679
they knew he was seeing lights getting
signals, and then the Russian said,

472
00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:12.840
hey, you know what are you
doing over there? And he would then

473
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.599
history would be, oh, I'm
monitoring these aliens and these alien signals,

474
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:22.679
so that they wouldn't listen to him. One theory being that just that and

475
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:30.599
then the Russians would leave him alone, and the other theory being that they

476
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:37.559
were kind of giving UFO disinformation to
throw UFO people off, so we wouldn't

477
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:43.119
know the UFO truth out there.
Although I'm skeptical, the more I researched

478
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.840
that it really any of that had
to do with UFOs. They were more

479
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:51.440
not concerned with UFOs, just making
sure people didn't know about their top secret

480
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:53.679
projects. Yeah, well that's the
impression. I tried to give him the

481
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:59.719
book because that's the I got.
There were a few reactions to the book

482
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.440
from from different areas. One was
yours, which was, Wow, this

483
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:06.400
is fascinating. I think that we
had to watch out for this kind of

484
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:10.239
stuff, and it's it's good that
we know some of their tactics now so

485
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:15.599
that we can we can deal with
it. And the other reaction kind of

486
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.400
was you got duped. All these
people lied to you, which basically means

487
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:22.559
I don't want to listen to what
you have to say or read what you

488
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.679
have to say. I already have
my mind made up. That's that's the

489
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:30.280
reaction I got from some people too. And the third one was why why

490
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:36.599
wasn't I mad? Why didn't I
get upset about it? And you know,

491
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:39.639
my answer to that question that that
concern was, it's not my job

492
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:44.280
to tell you how to feel.
This is a news article. Basically,

493
00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:49.559
it was a big longs feature that
ran for an entire book length and if

494
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:51.679
I have to tell you how to
feel, It's like me telling you the

495
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.679
story of Cinder of a snow white
having to tell you that that the evil,

496
00:37:55.719 --> 00:38:00.480
which is evil and that you should
hate her. Why shouldn't tell you

497
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:04.599
that exactly? I really that's one
aspect that gets frustrating. I mean,

498
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.280
to be more credible, you know, it's better to do straight reporting and

499
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:13.800
get the information out. One,
why do we have to get emotional about

500
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.280
anything? What good is that going
to do us? And two? Yeah,

501
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.679
why do you want to hear me
ranting on about how upset I am

502
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.519
about something instead of just giving you
the information? Yeah? I mean if

503
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:27.199
people ask me, I say,
yes, I am upset about it.

504
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.039
Yes, I think it was wrong
what the government did. No, I

505
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:34.119
don't think it was completely their fault, but that doesn't excuse them. That

506
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.599
is my personal feeling on the matter, and my personal feeling about the people

507
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.840
involved in the story. No,
Richard Doty shouldn't have said those things to

508
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:44.679
Paul Benewitz and maybe should have told
him what was going on, but he

509
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:49.159
was following orders, et cetera.
No, Bill Moore should have should have

510
00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.679
actually told Bennewitz what was going on, and he shouldn't have made this deal

511
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.960
with the government, although that's really
complicated and I think that was probably wrong,

512
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.599
and I don't know if i'd do
the same thing. Probably not,

513
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:04.119
I do not know. But it's
not my job to pass judgment on these

514
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:09.119
people publicly. That's the job of
you know, people that are reading and

515
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:15.079
possibly although I don't think it will
ever happen the justice system, which is

516
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:19.559
I think people in the story are
pretty much immune from that because it has

517
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:22.440
to do with national security and there's
things that couldn't be revealed in court,

518
00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.440
so it doesn't really matter. I
mean, a couple of researchers have said

519
00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:30.079
these people should be brought to justice. It's like, well, you know,

520
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:35.480
that's like saying that there's a lot
more important things where people should be

521
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:37.679
brought to justice, Like, you
know, a lot of people in the

522
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:42.400
Bush administration that are never going to
be prosecuted for the things, for the

523
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:46.079
things they did and the people they
hurt and the problems they caused. So

524
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:52.079
it's way down on the list of
government malfeasance. But yes, it's still

525
00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:54.840
there. And know it shouldn't have
happened, and I'm glad that some of

526
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.719
the people at least told me what
happened. I admitted to it, at

527
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:02.119
least part of it, so that
we know we could set the record vaguely

528
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.000
straight on what happened in that period
and who had happened to and what tactics

529
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:13.280
they were using and what you know
to separate the noise from the signal from

530
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.159
the noise. Yeah, before we
get into more of those details, I

531
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:21.039
did want to comment to on the
second reaction that you said people had,

532
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:25.320
which is another funny one. I
find people telling you that you were lied

533
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:31.599
to. And it's interesting because,
you know, as a writing stories about

534
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:37.320
these different UFO mythologies and trying to
discover, you know, the signal from

535
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:42.239
the noise like you're talking about,
but just doing an honest due diligence around

536
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:50.639
reporting something journalistically, a lot of
these mythologies have their origins in the Benewitz

537
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.639
information and we know that some of
those stories and the information he got,

538
00:40:54.679 --> 00:41:00.559
like you had said, was disinformation. So that's just the fact, and

539
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:04.280
it's funny that people would then say, oh, well, you shouldn't have

540
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:09.920
believed those people. Really, what
gets difficult in this build who people choose

541
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:15.280
to pick and choose who what they
usually do is the people they choose to

542
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:16.880
believe are the ones that are saying
what they want to hear. Right,

543
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.519
well, they don't want to believe
the people that are saying things they don't

544
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.280
want to hear that make them sound
like they were wrong or whatever. I

545
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:29.880
try not to do that personally.
I try. I mean, I'll give

546
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:34.000
you an example. That's the underground
base thing. When I wrote the book

547
00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:37.079
and for a couple of years afterwards, I thought there are no underground bases

548
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:39.760
at Dalcy. That was just a
big cover to get Benowitz to get his

549
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:45.360
attention away from Kurrentland. But as
it turns out, I started to think

550
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:50.000
after talking to a few people two
or three years after the fact, a

551
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:53.559
couple who have no you know,
connection with Benowitz, the Air Force or

552
00:41:53.599 --> 00:42:00.239
anything whatsoever, told me, yes, there is actually something there. There

553
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.599
was. That doesn't mean there were
aliens there and there were boiling people in

554
00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:07.400
Vats and all that. It just
means that I was wrong about there being

555
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.480
no base there. Maybe there was
that there is, and I'm willing to

556
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:15.960
change my mind about that. But
in regards to me being lied to or

557
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:22.480
disinformed or whatever, and you know, people get irritated with me for saying

558
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:24.800
it, but I think Bill Moore
said it best. He said, you

559
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:30.239
enter into an agreement with these people
that they will talk to you, and

560
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:37.800
you listen, and therefore you were
entered into a game. And that game

561
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.800
is to try and get as much
to the heart of the truth as you

562
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:46.639
can. And they're part of the
game is to mess with you and to

563
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.920
try and tell you if they don't
want to help you as much, as

564
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.280
much, as little as they can, and if they do want to help

565
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:57.760
you as much as they can.
And I think I got both sides of

566
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:01.239
that sort. And the other thing
is when you do play that game,

567
00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:06.280
you are basically, yes, involved
in a game, and the game is

568
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:09.920
the game is, like I said, get as much as you can and

569
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:13.960
try and determine if it's the truth. But the point of the whole thing

570
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:15.719
is if you don't play the game, if you don't enter the arena to

571
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.440
play the game, you get nothing. And so when you go go and

572
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.679
start playing that game, you have
to start trusting that your discernment, your

573
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:30.320
powers of discernment about what is true
and what isn't is working properly, or

574
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:35.280
that you can trust it. And
the other thing is one way you do

575
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:39.159
that is by double and basically cross
checking what people tell you. Yeah,

576
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:45.719
and percent of the stuff in the
book was either available in an open source

577
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:52.840
and in another way, or was
told to me by somebody else outside of

578
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:59.800
the outside of the people with government
clearances. For instance, when somebody said,

579
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.280
how do you know Paul Bennolitz was
flown over the Archiletta Mason your Dulcie,

580
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:07.000
New Mexico and shown Pops on the
ground to make him think there was

581
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:12.480
an underground base there. Well,
because first Richard Dotey told me, oh,

582
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.679
well, the guy lies, he's
a horrible liar. Well, then

583
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.039
Gabe Valdez told me Gave Valdez is
not in the government, He was a

584
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.719
state highway patrol and he said,
oh yeah. Benowitz was so excited about

585
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.199
that. He said he couldn't believe
that they were taking him up there and

586
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:30.719
showing him this stuff like. Well, then I guess Richard Doty wasn't lying

587
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.760
to me in that case, was
he. Well I put that one in

588
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:37.159
the book because you know, and
that's just one example. If I could

589
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:43.400
find, if I could find at
least one person outside the loop there that

590
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:49.119
either had exactly the same information or
basically the same information, I would figure

591
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:51.360
that there was some truth to it, especially if it fit in with the

592
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.599
rest of the story, and if
it didn't, I wouldn't put it in

593
00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:59.480
with the exception of one thing that
Bill Moore told me, and nobody's ever

594
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:02.800
said anything about it, really,
and that was the fact that he told

595
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:07.679
me. J. Allen Heinich,
the famous UFO researcher, founder of Center

596
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:13.639
for UFOs. People know who he
is, had given Paul Benowitz a computer

597
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.440
program that basically led him astray,
or actually a computer a whole computer setup.

598
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.519
Somebody had delivered it to him,
and he Bill told me that Heinich

599
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:27.559
told him that he had done it. Now, I don't know, you

600
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:30.440
know, apart from the fact that
a lot of people suspect that Heinich was

601
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:35.119
on the payroll of the Air Force
after Blue Book until his death, I

602
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:37.480
can't, you know, I haven't
been able to find anybody else that can

603
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:40.800
confirm that for me. But I
thought it was so important that I did

604
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.800
put it in the book, and
also mentioned Moore was the only person that

605
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:49.559
told me that. Yeah, you
know, two reasons, One it's really

606
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.119
important if it's true, and two
if somebody can read that and say,

607
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:57.920
oh, yeah, I can confirm
that, right tell me or confirm it

608
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.639
somehow publicly, then that piece and
be added to the puzzle. Which is

609
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:06.519
why I included the one that's the
one unfounded piece of information or from one

610
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:09.880
person that I did include. And
at least if that rumor circles, people

611
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:15.239
can then research this back to an
origin also, which I think is important

612
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:16.920
too. Yeah, there's a lot
of things I include in my writing and

613
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:22.960
in the books and all that,
things that I put out publicly that are

614
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:27.880
basically in there because people that know
what I'm talking about will be able to

615
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.360
confirm it for me or for themselves
or whatever, hopefully to me and public

616
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:35.119
right. Yeah, I just put
out a feeler. I mean, that's

617
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:39.760
the That's That's another thing about the
intelligence community. Their currency is information,

618
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:45.039
and if you have a valuable piece
of information that they don't have, that

619
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.280
is your currency, and they will
you can sell them, You can buy

620
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.559
information off them with with your information. Not that I'm I'm you know,

621
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.599
I'm on the very I'm the below
of the bottom wrung and that in that

622
00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:00.360
scenario. But every once in a
while I would have a piece of information

623
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.159
from another person, and they would
give me a piece of information that they

624
00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:07.599
wouldn't have given to me unless they
had learned something from me. And to

625
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:13.360
kind of get into who some of
these players are, you've mentioned Richard Doti

626
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.880
and he worked for the Air Force
Intelligence at the time, and with the

627
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:21.440
guy speaking with Benewitten, He's got
other history that we'll get into. And

628
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:27.079
then William Moore, who was a
UFO researcher, wrote the first Roswell book,

629
00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.079
which was a big deal obviously,
and then I think, like you

630
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:37.239
do, he came out eventually and
told about how he was not on their

631
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:43.960
payroll, but how he was dealing
in information. He was spreading their disinformation

632
00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:50.920
knowingly and working with the Air Force
secretly, as well as being a UFO

633
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.559
researcher and having the confidence of people. Of course, people got upset when

634
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:58.960
he came out and told people this, But we wouldn't know all of this

635
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:02.920
information and the details about what happened
if it wasn't for him coming forward.

636
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.760
I personally am grateful that he came
forward. I don't know how much disinformation

637
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:13.719
he spread knowingly. Now there's a
lot of people that would say, yeah,

638
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:19.880
that's all he did the whole time
he was UFO researcher. But as

639
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:24.440
far as I can tell, the
only disinformation he spread knowingly because he was

640
00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:31.639
told to, was telling Paul Benowitz
that this the giving him that Aquarius document,

641
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:35.360
which if you've seen the book,
you know what I'm talking about,

642
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:40.360
just the one that's basically it's a
teletype that supposedly says that the Air Forces

643
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:46.599
at Bowling Air Force Base was looking
at some film and stills and all that

644
00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:54.639
and interested in some anomalist pictures that
Benowitz had taken it at Kirtland. Obviously,

645
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:59.800
the thing was designed to get Benowitz
excited that the Air Force was secretly

646
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:05.800
discussing things that he was doing.
More was told to give it to him.

647
00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:08.000
He hesitated, and they told him
that he was not going to be

648
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:12.719
including anymore in their deal unless he
gave it to Benowitz. So he gave

649
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:15.440
it to Benewitz, but also warned
him. At least that's what Bill told

650
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:19.960
me. Whether he did or not, I do not know. I've never

651
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:22.039
caught him. I never did.
I mean, I don't talk to him

652
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.400
very much anywhere, but I never
caught him lying to me or telling me

653
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:30.280
anything that was false. Ever,
over the course of many years. All

654
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:36.679
the stuff I've been able to check
out later was true basically through other people

655
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:40.159
and through you know, doing research. So you know what am I to

656
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:43.920
think the other thing he's like,
Well, Bill Moore lies to people.

657
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:47.800
If you've got friend, and I
was fairly friendly with him, I would

658
00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:52.719
consider him a friend. If you've
got people you trust and that you like,

659
00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:55.239
wouldn't you be more inclined to be
a little bit more straight with him

660
00:49:55.239 --> 00:50:00.760
than somebody that you couldn't trust or
you didn't like, or both. So

661
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:04.719
you know, I don't know if
that's an ironclad thing saying that. You

662
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:07.000
know, I was always told the
truth by Bill, but I would tend

663
00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:10.519
to think that he was more apt
to tell me what he thought he could

664
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:17.639
as truthfully as he could. Well
on other UFO researchers that were working with

665
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:24.639
him prior to his involvement with the
Air Force seemed to have good experiences with

666
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:28.800
him and not a problem with him. I mean, I think that's part

667
00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:32.800
of the problem. A lot of
researchers really liked him and felt he was

668
00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:37.079
an honest person, and one of
the reasons why they were disappointed with his

669
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:43.440
secret affair with the Air Force.
Yeah, well it's you know, who

670
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.079
knows how many of those people would
have taken the same deal. Of course,

671
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:47.079
all of them in hindsight say no, no, no way. Now

672
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:51.800
that's another good question, you know, But there are some who did,

673
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:59.639
and possibly I've got certain suspicions and
other people have too. But the thing

674
00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:02.519
is that one they weren't and by
his own admission, one they weren't arrogant

675
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:07.360
about it. And two they haven't
told anybody about it, right, So

676
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:10.519
you know, that's not to take
guilt off of him. But the thing

677
00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.199
is that, you know, he
made a bargain. And the other thing

678
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:16.840
is that he said that you know, they'll say one thing like, well,

679
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:19.840
we'll give you this if you'll give
us that, and then it gets

680
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.360
more and more and more involved,
and before you know it, you can't.

681
00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:28.599
You can't extricate yourself easily from this
bargain you've made. So he said

682
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:34.320
he became problematic for him to stay
in this bargain doing things that he didn't

683
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:37.800
want to do occasionally, and as
far as I know, the only disinformation

684
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.440
he spread was de Benewitz and he
warned him about it. Other than that

685
00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:45.880
he may have spread disinformation. But
I think he did it because he thought

686
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:51.280
one it was exciting, important stuff, and two he hadn't found out that

687
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:54.519
if the stuff was actually really real
or not. Like the MJ twelve stuff,

688
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:59.400
at this point he thinks it was
mostly or all fake. Right first

689
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:04.679
came out, him and Jamie Shanderray
and Stanton Friedman were fairly certain that most

690
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.960
of it was true, if not
all of it. But in hindsight he

691
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:13.800
says, yeah, probably not.
I mean he said that repeatedly because these

692
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:17.800
were documents that came Now, from
what I understand, the document the MJ

693
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:23.719
twelve did not well at least not
proven that they came directly from Richard Dody.

694
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:30.320
Well, they came from Albuquerque,
which is where Kirtland is. Somebay

695
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:37.400
in intelligence somewhere right mailed that package
from Albuquerque. This is Eisenhower briefing document,

696
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:39.679
not all the other stuff. When
people think MJ twelve documents, they

697
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:44.480
think of the Eisenhower briefing document,
which is that what is a ten page

698
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:47.920
thing that says, supposedly is a
briefing document for President Eisenhower telling him about

699
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.039
MJ twelve and the UFO problem as
it was up to then. In nineteen

700
00:52:52.079 --> 00:53:00.480
fifty two or whatever it was.
But that you know, it's not the

701
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:04.440
whole of the MJ twelve thing.
There are many, many, many documents

702
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:10.159
when it is brillianting more on Jamie
Chanderray and that main one came from Albuquerque,

703
00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:17.760
was mailed from Albuquerque anonymously and arrived
on Jamie Schandray's doorstep in nineteen eighty

704
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:22.960
one I think it was, I
can't remember now. And then to Moore's

705
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.760
credit, he was hesitant about the
document and they were not. They were

706
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:34.079
doing their research and they were not
releasing the document until the Air Force was

707
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:38.719
pressuring them to release it, right, And then they even gave Timothy Good

708
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:42.519
the document, saying, hey,
we're going to give it to someone else

709
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.679
and let him put it out if
you don't, yeah, so, and

710
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:53.079
unfortunately he and Chanderray and Stanton Friedman
took the bait and released it. Obviously,

711
00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:55.400
if they're trying to push it like
that, they've got an agenda.

712
00:53:55.440 --> 00:53:59.480
And if there's agenda, that makes
you really question what's in the document.

713
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:04.880
Yeah, but they did it anyway, I think partly because one they didn't

714
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:07.199
you know, it was an ego
thing, Jesus. So some guy in

715
00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:10.239
England's going to release it first,
which is the wrong way to go about

716
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.880
things. But I can see why
they did it, even though I don't

717
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:17.000
with it. And there's also a
hindsight thing too. I mean, like,

718
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:21.119
you know, what if you think
you're sitting on the biggest bombshell in

719
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:27.000
fifty years and somebody tells you release
it or or or forget it, right,

720
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.199
you know, it was a mistake. It was a big It was

721
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:34.360
a big mistake, and I'm sure
Bill would admit it now that's even to

722
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:37.639
be pressured like that, but that
was part of the pressure they were putting

723
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:44.119
on him and people that were releasing
stuff too. Yeah, And that's to

724
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:50.320
create a false impression of things and
to also get certain people interested in things

725
00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:52.800
so they could track them. Right, And now here we are with m

726
00:54:52.920 --> 00:55:00.679
J twelve. This is huge part
of the UFO mythology and certainly for me

727
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:07.440
questionable. I mean, I've certainly
read Stanton Friedeman's book Magic, which talks

728
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:14.559
about, you know, the evidence
that he has found that perhaps at least

729
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:22.199
that something similar to this organization possibly
did exist back then. But it really

730
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.559
seems, you know, it makes
it difficult to swallow the whole thing,

731
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:31.000
and unfortunate that it's just a given
for a lot of the public that this

732
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:37.000
group existed or and or exists,
when it has such origins that people don't

733
00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:44.079
even remember. Yeah. Well,
MG twelve was strangely enough mentioned in the

734
00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:47.719
Aquarius document. It was the first
place anybody had ever mentioned it, and

735
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:52.599
it's a special access granted only to
MJ twelve to they spelled out the twelve.

736
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:55.599
They put it in quotes, So
I don't know what was up with

737
00:55:55.639 --> 00:56:02.280
that. But after many years of
talking to Bill about it and looking at

738
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:07.880
the documents and seeing what the reaction
to it was and seeing what actual real

739
00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:15.159
documentary evidence there was, I think
most people that are up to up to

740
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:21.159
speed on the UFO government thing,
well it would agree with you that they're

741
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:30.000
they're unfounded and probably false to a
great degree. But however, I think

742
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:35.400
that there was an MJ twelve something
called MJ twelve. It probably had nothing

743
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:39.440
to do whatsoever with UFOs. It
probably wasn't an aerospace thing or something to

744
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:45.280
do with flight or rockets or something
like that, but it was so small

745
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:49.559
and so secret that it was really
easy to hang all this UFO stuff on

746
00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:52.639
it. Because of that one memo, the Cutler Twining memo that mentions MJ

747
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:59.119
twelve. It doesn't say we're going
to talk about UFOs next week. Sorry,

748
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:01.920
we can't hanseled. The canceled the
meeting about UFOs and aliens. We're

749
00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:05.840
going to do it next week or
some other time. All it says is

750
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:09.199
MG twelve's, you know, was
canceled. We're going to meet next week.

751
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:14.079
And this is an official document,
but it doesn't say what MB twelve

752
00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:17.800
is. But what whoever made up
these documents wanted everybody to believe that there

753
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.159
was something called MG twelve having to
do with the UFOs, and they had

754
00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:27.920
this one little piece of documentation that
would stand up to scrutiny that didn't say

755
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:30.400
what MG twelve was. And that's
what happened for many years. And the

756
00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:36.320
piece of documentation was actually planted so
that more and chanderret would find it.

757
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:39.239
I mean, it was actually planted
in the National Archives in a place where

758
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:44.880
they were pretty sure they were going
to find it well. And they touted

759
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:47.840
this for many years. And now
Bill and many other people think I think

760
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:51.679
the same thing. I you know
that I've come to the same conclusion you

761
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:54.400
have, and everybody else has that. Yes, it existed, now,

762
00:57:54.440 --> 00:57:59.480
it had nothing to do with the
UFOs. Maybe there was some sort of

763
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:01.840
organization like that, but nobody's been
able to determine what it is yet,

764
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:07.719
right and to show how that's a
classic part of disinformation by releasing a memo

765
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:15.320
that had a reference, but then
releasing this less credible stuff that explains it

766
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:22.559
in an unrealistic way. Was a
memo that was engineered by Dody for the

767
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:27.559
APROL people, and I think that's
one where they dig it. Upset with

768
00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:34.320
More too, because he knew that
this was hoaxed and remember the sighting,

769
00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:37.480
there's no reason to get him upset
with it. The oh god, I

770
00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:45.920
can't remember the name of the the
doc. Dody just to a bunch of

771
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:50.039
UFO organizations, yeah, saying that
this guy was inside the Air Force and

772
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:52.639
he had seen something. He had
seen the UFO land and they had taken

773
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:55.800
pictures and it'd be been debriefed and
there was a men in black thing.

774
00:58:57.159 --> 00:59:02.000
Anyway, this came to uh Aerial
Phenomenal Research Organization of which More was a

775
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:06.639
member, in the late nineteen seventy
or yeah, late seventies, early eighties.

776
00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:12.280
I think it was received in nineteen
seventy nine or eighty. Anyway,

777
00:59:12.400 --> 00:59:15.039
he told me, and nobody's contradicted
it that he went to Jim and Coral

778
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:19.159
Lawrens and who ran it after they
had handed it to him and said,

779
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:21.599
no, this is false. I
actually called them up and found out.

780
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:23.119
I found the guy, and the
guy says, yeah, we saw something,

781
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:27.079
but all that other stuff is fake. I mean, it didn't land.

782
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:32.000
We weren't debriefed about anything. So
he said, well, then you

783
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:36.880
know, it's obviously a false flag
from somewhere, so let's not worry about

784
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:39.440
it. I don't know of some
other information that says he was pushing it

785
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:44.320
to other people and saying it was
real. He actually told APRO to ignore

786
00:59:44.360 --> 00:59:47.880
it. And I wrote that in
the book too, which is kind of

787
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:52.119
weird that people don't read that if
they do and start saying, well,

788
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.760
he said this was real. Actually
had one researcher did say, you know,

789
00:59:54.840 --> 01:00:00.719
he more got this memo, got
this letter and told Apro that it

790
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:05.519
was real and that they should they
should really look into it, and which

791
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:07.559
is exactly the opposite of what I
said in the book. He told him

792
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:12.079
it wasn't real because he checked into
it right. Part of the reason why

793
01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:14.920
he is recruited, at least as
he says, is because he checked up

794
01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:20.199
on things exactly right. And yeah, I had heard you know, you

795
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.320
know how people just they kind of
grab reasons because they really want to be

796
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:28.280
upset with more. And the one
I had read on that one was that

797
01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.199
he didn't share that it was not
real when he knew it wasn't real,

798
01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:36.360
which wasn't the case according to your
book. I didn't know it was wasn't

799
01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:38.679
real. He checked up on it. He wasn't even involved with anybody in

800
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:43.000
the Air Force at that point.
It was a feeler going out to see

801
01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:46.159
who would take the bait and how
they would react. And more was the

802
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:51.960
only one that reacted by actually calling
the base or calling around till he found

803
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:54.320
the guy that was referenced in that
supposedly had written a letter in asking him

804
01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:59.559
about it. Yeah, nobody else
did that, so you know, I

805
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:04.119
don't know, you know, they're
in his cap that he actually checked it

806
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:07.239
out. Yeah, which is pretty
cool, but which is a demonstration though

807
01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:10.920
of how you know, it was
a real UFO sighting, but it was

808
01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:15.519
a mundane sighting that was blown up
in this disinformation piece that was sent out

809
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:19.719
to people. Yeah, I mean, it's just it was a test.

810
01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:24.199
This is one of the things that
the people in the spy business do and

811
01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:29.880
in counterintelligence do. They mess with
people to see how they will react.

812
01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:32.400
Yeah, for them, it's all
fair game. It's it's it's war.

813
01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:36.320
It was a Cold war, and
it was fair game to do this to

814
01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:43.440
American citizens in further into finding out
one what they knew, and two if

815
01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:47.239
anybody from outside the country was was
talking to them, and you know,

816
01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:51.519
and a few were. There were
people that were saying, I'm an innocent

817
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:57.360
UFO researcher from China or Russia or
wherever. And some of them weren't innocent

818
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:00.679
UFO researchers. They were they were
spies working for the governments of these countries

819
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:08.199
trying to find out information on defense
projects through UFO researchers. It seems really

820
01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:12.000
logical that this would be a way
to get information, at least in the

821
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:15.239
heights. It would. And it's
happened more than once, many many times,

822
01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:19.480
and I cite some of those in
the book. And it happened after

823
01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:23.559
all the stuff with Benewitz, and
it happened all the way up to the

824
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:27.639
end of the Cold War, and
a little bit passed it too, and

825
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:32.239
I'm sure it's still going on in
another form now. I wanted to talk

826
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:37.559
also more about Doulce because we've talked
about it a bit. But I found

827
01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:40.639
that interesting because there were things in
your book that I hadn't known. I've

828
01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:45.280
been looking into Dulce for quite some
time. I lived in Colorado my whole

829
01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:51.960
life, and I've been out there. I've interviewed some of the locals out

830
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:54.360
there, but and I used to
believe there was something to it until I

831
01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:59.679
really looked into more of the history
been out there and some of the investigations

832
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.360
that that were gone on. And
I think I've heard some of what you

833
01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:08.800
might have heard about it, but
I was surprised to what extent Dody was

834
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:15.599
going to to really convince Benewitz that
there was something there. I hadn't known

835
01:03:15.679 --> 01:03:21.719
about what you had mentioned earlier about
them putting props on the Mason flying him

836
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:24.440
over it. Yeah, they did
it twice in helicopters. Dody went with

837
01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:29.480
him once and I can't remember the
name of the guy that was running a

838
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:36.159
security for Kurrentland at the time that
he went with him. Once and Benowitz

839
01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:38.119
was also a pilot, so he
after they took him up there, he

840
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:43.599
went up there with his plane and
took more pictures. Unfortunately, he took

841
01:03:43.639 --> 01:03:45.360
pictures of things that were he said, there were things, and then after

842
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:50.559
that they just pulled all the props
away and put them back. I guess

843
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:52.840
he did see something when he was
up in the plate in the helicopter with

844
01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:55.400
him, but he went back took
pictures of things. And the only pictures

845
01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:00.400
I've ever seen are just they're just
picture which was the forest up there and

846
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:04.440
the mountains, and he's got little
circles and diagrams showing where everything is.

847
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:08.480
But if if you weren't looking the
way he was looking at they it just

848
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:14.920
looked like pictures of forests and and
mountains and rocks. So, like I

849
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:16.639
said, he was in a lot
of ways, he was his own worst

850
01:04:16.719 --> 01:04:21.239
enemy. Yeah, but I think
the feeling this could be another red herring.

851
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:28.719
I mean, I believe that in
the mountains further more remote, because

852
01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:31.920
Dulce is not as remote as you
know people think it is. That there's

853
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:35.360
a town at the foot of it. There's a casino at the foot of

854
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:41.400
this mesa there and as more remote
in the early to mid eighties than it

855
01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:45.800
is now. I went there in
nineteen eighty nine or nineteen ninety. It

856
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:50.920
was pretty damned remote. There's I
think there's there might be a few more

857
01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:55.159
highways out there, and like you
said, yeah, there's a casino there.

858
01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:59.920
Now. The population's gone up,
but it's pretty remote and a lot

859
01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:04.360
areas around there are used for training, particularly for the all right, but

860
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:08.880
there's a lot more remote in Colorado. I mean when you get into the

861
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:12.400
rough mountains, and that's kind of
what a lot of the people in the

862
01:05:12.480 --> 01:05:15.519
area feel, is that you know
some places because there's a lot of space

863
01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:21.320
out there that's not accessible by vehicles
except only by the air, which makes

864
01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:26.800
a lot more sense to put something
a secret base like that, especially because

865
01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:30.559
I know Dolese has been around probably
since the turn of the century. They've

866
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:36.000
had at least a few hundred residents
at the first census in the thirties.

867
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:43.400
But again, all the stories I've
heard and talking with people going and hiking

868
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:48.320
and trying to finally supposed ducks and
things like that, have never found anything.

869
01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:53.079
I was told by a couple of
people that live out there that they

870
01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:55.239
would take me out and show me
that. And I said, sure,

871
01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:58.920
I'll go, but we haven't done
it yet. I don't know if I

872
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:03.639
ever will. I don't really care
if there's something there or not right now,

873
01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:09.440
because if there is, it's just
not it's not. I don't think

874
01:06:09.440 --> 01:06:14.079
it's active anymore. But there the
people that live out there that I you

875
01:06:14.119 --> 01:06:19.159
know that some of them that I've
known for a while now, so I

876
01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:23.480
can't really put it down to them
messing with people from outside of the tribe.

877
01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:27.639
I'm talking about tribal members that actually
live on the Hickorya Reservation land.

878
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:31.159
Yeah, they've said, yeah,
there's some stuff there that's a little suspicious,

879
01:06:31.239 --> 01:06:32.960
and we can take it out and
show it to you. And I

880
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:40.719
was like, okay, I'd love
to see it. The other part of

881
01:06:40.719 --> 01:06:43.519
this story is that, like I
said, at first, I didn't think

882
01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:48.280
there was anything to the stories and
it was just total disinformation. Subsequently,

883
01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:56.480
I met a guy completely at random, almost completely. I mean, he's

884
01:06:56.480 --> 01:07:00.239
involved in the ultra light community like
I am, and so, but he

885
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:01.360
said, oh, yeah, you
got to talk to him. He was

886
01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:08.880
involved with government projects in Arizona or
New Mexico or something like that. At

887
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:12.119
some point he might be interested,
so I gave him a copy of the

888
01:07:12.119 --> 01:07:15.280
book. He read it, and
then I met him again a few months

889
01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:18.599
later and he said, yeah,
well, there was actually something at Dulcie.

890
01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:21.599
I said, what, how do
you know? He said, well,

891
01:07:21.639 --> 01:07:27.000
because I worked in underground facilities,
and there was it was common knowledge

892
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:30.199
among us that there was a facility
up near there, somewhere like north of

893
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:35.199
Los Alamos, really, you know. And then he said, yeah,

894
01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:39.760
I never went there, but we
would. We would go, you know,

895
01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:42.159
we would go to a certain place. We'd go down in an elevator

896
01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:45.360
and we'd work underground all day.
We'd probably we'd take a train somewhere underground.

897
01:07:45.719 --> 01:07:48.400
We wouldn't know where it was because
we weren't supposed, so we'd work

898
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:53.920
on it. We'd come back up. And the guy did work for the

899
01:07:53.960 --> 01:07:57.639
Department of Defense, and yes,
he did have clearances that you know,

900
01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:01.480
he told me he had, so
either yeah, lying to me, or

901
01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:05.559
he has some information that there is
or he said it wasn't active anymore,

902
01:08:06.679 --> 01:08:11.000
that there is or was something underground
there. And then I do a little

903
01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:18.119
bit further research about activity in the
area, specifically earthquakes that took place in

904
01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:24.119
the nineteen sixties and seventies. There
there's no earthquakes going on in that region.

905
01:08:24.840 --> 01:08:30.640
It's not an act of geologic region. There was a series of mid

906
01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:34.079
sized earthquakes at very regular intervals for
quite a while, which to me indicates

907
01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:41.319
explosions underground. So there's a good
deal of evidence to suggest that there was

908
01:08:41.399 --> 01:08:45.319
some sort of a base there,
or may still be. I do not

909
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:46.760
know. But the point of telling, you know, what's the point of

910
01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:50.920
telling Benewitz that and telling them aliens
are there? Why tell everybody where there's

911
01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:54.840
a you know, exactly where an
underground base is that you want to keep

912
01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:59.119
secret. Yeah, that's why I
feel possibly there is, because I've heard

913
01:08:59.119 --> 01:09:02.680
those other the story two of the
noises and that they erupt, and I

914
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:09.159
know others have pinpointed locations near there, but not exactly under the Mesa,

915
01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.159
which would probably make more sense.
They kind of give you a red herring.

916
01:09:13.159 --> 01:09:16.399
Hey, everybody climb around this mountain
while we're actually under this other mountain.

917
01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:21.760
Tell everybody that there's something there,
or you know, make a secret,

918
01:09:24.199 --> 01:09:28.479
open secret of it, and like
you said, tell people exactly where

919
01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:31.039
it is. But it's in the
wrong place. It's like ten miles away,

920
01:09:31.640 --> 01:09:34.640
right, or even three or four
miles away, and everybody's busy crawling

921
01:09:34.680 --> 01:09:38.920
all over the mountains in the back
country looking for this thing, and maybe

922
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:42.760
you shove a few poles in the
ground to get them excited, yeah,

923
01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:48.880
which is all it takes. Yeah. But the thing is that there's another

924
01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:53.880
benefit of that, and the benefit
is look and see who's out there looking

925
01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:57.079
for it and what they're saying about
it, and especially now with the Internet,

926
01:09:57.279 --> 01:10:00.279
who's talking, what they're talking about, where they're from, and who

927
01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:04.199
what their identities are. It's a
good way to get a lot of activity

928
01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:10.479
going and to see who's interested in
what they're saying, right actively. So

929
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:14.560
there's a lot of reasons why you
would do something like that, and it

930
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:17.520
makes sense to me that that there
probably is or was some sort of a

931
01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:20.479
base there, and hooking it up
with the alien thing just made it,

932
01:10:20.960 --> 01:10:25.239
you know, it made most people
just laugh at it, of course,

933
01:10:25.840 --> 01:10:30.600
right. But the people that weren't
laughing were either you know, really into

934
01:10:30.640 --> 01:10:35.840
the UFO thing, one or two
crazy or three talking to these people because

935
01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:41.359
they needed to know where underground facilities
were and they didn't really care about aliens.

936
01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:44.920
But they're making believe that they do
just to so they can get information.

937
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:50.119
Yeah. Scott Ramsey, the Aztec
researcher who I'm sure you've probably talked

938
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:56.920
with, I think you probably spoke, lectured at the same conference before.

939
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.800
He says that he had done some
research because he was researching Dulsee. Also

940
01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:04.960
that he found that they were building
some caves because they were going to use

941
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:13.239
it as a nuclear waste dump until
the camp project was canceled after some conflicts

942
01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:18.079
between the federal government and New Mexico
state government over what waste was going to

943
01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:21.479
go there, so they canceled the
project, so that at least there was

944
01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:26.439
some tunneling going on there at some
point. Oh well, maybe that's what

945
01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:30.920
it was, and maybe they just
used it as a red herring, you

946
01:11:30.960 --> 01:11:35.319
know, just to mess with him
and other people, and then there really

947
01:11:35.439 --> 01:11:41.920
was something there, but it was
completely useless and and like you said,

948
01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:45.600
it abandoned. Yeah. I don't
know that that would be interesting to find

949
01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:53.159
out. You know, Dulcie's a
weird place. There's also there's all kinds

950
01:11:53.199 --> 01:11:58.680
of strange aerial phenomena sited there,
which may or may not be secret testing

951
01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:03.119
of something or you know, both
something known and secret testing. Well,

952
01:12:03.159 --> 01:12:06.760
the entire San Luis Valley, which
is really strange. What the hell are

953
01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:11.039
they doing there? So, oh
yeah, well, the entire San Luis

954
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:15.000
Valley has lots of strange stories like
that. My family, Dulci could is

955
01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:17.359
basically could be considered the very southern
tip of the San Luis. But if

956
01:12:17.399 --> 01:12:20.319
you go up into Colorado, you're
basically at the very southern edge of the

957
01:12:20.319 --> 01:12:25.319
San Luis Valley, right over the
border from Dulci, right, Yeah,

958
01:12:25.319 --> 01:12:30.960
because that valley has sightings that my
family has some history back that my very

959
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:33.680
first UFO siding was in the valley, and then you're right, and then

960
01:12:33.720 --> 01:12:39.000
in the the southern tip of the
valley and the mountains out there, there's

961
01:12:39.039 --> 01:12:43.479
all of these big foot sightings,
which is, like you said, what

962
01:12:43.560 --> 01:12:45.920
the heck is going on out there? It's a weird place. The whole

963
01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:50.640
entire valley is a really weird place. Yeah, if you, I'm sure

964
01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:54.760
you've read them, but people listening, they should read Chrys O'Brien's books.

965
01:12:54.960 --> 01:12:59.039
Yeah, various valley under the Valley, and I think there's one other after

966
01:12:59.079 --> 01:13:03.000
that. The specific perfictly deal with
his time living there in the eighties and

967
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:05.600
nineties what he found out. I
mean, he was basically a full time

968
01:13:05.680 --> 01:13:12.800
anomalies investigator there for over ten years, and he's found out some very strange

969
01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:18.479
stuff about that area and why there
might be UFO sited there constantly. In

970
01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:23.680
addition to other things, I mean, there's also you know, phantom hitchhiker

971
01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:30.359
stories and Brujo Mexican witch stories and
sightings of the Devil and all this.

972
01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:34.800
It's, you know, the high
concentration of weird stuff for such a sparsely

973
01:13:34.840 --> 01:13:40.000
populated area. Yeah, So a
couple of the other theories out there that

974
01:13:40.039 --> 01:13:44.880
I wanted to get your take on
Falcon. Falcon was supposedly this guy who

975
01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:49.279
was essentially like Doty's bot. But
then niation of the operation with Benewitz.

976
01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:54.119
Yes, he went there's his boss
in the Air Force. But he was

977
01:13:54.159 --> 01:13:59.000
in he was in the CIA and
the CIA was running. He had brought

978
01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:00.479
and been brought out of return firement. This is what I was told.

979
01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:05.039
He'd been in the CIA for a
long time, like back through the fifties,

980
01:14:05.079 --> 01:14:10.920
and had been in the OSS before
that, and he was stationed in

981
01:14:11.600 --> 01:14:16.439
East Germany or West Germany and worked
with yin Ard Galen in the after World

982
01:14:16.439 --> 01:14:21.479
War Two. He was stationed I
believe in the Middle East somewhere for a

983
01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:28.279
while. And he was an old, old, old hand at Soviet counter

984
01:14:29.119 --> 01:14:32.439
intelligence. And this was Bill Moore. Who is he the one who gave

985
01:14:32.479 --> 01:14:38.840
you that information? Yeah, okay, And I've been trying to find out

986
01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:43.520
for years now if anybody can corroborate
it, and I haven't been able to

987
01:14:43.560 --> 01:14:47.319
find that yet. Yeah. I've
been writing an article which I'm I don't

988
01:14:47.319 --> 01:14:51.800
know about halfway through where because I
couldn't corroborate it anywhere. So friend Ken

989
01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:57.840
Thomas, actually my friend Ken Thomas, who published Steam Shovel Press. I

990
01:14:57.920 --> 01:15:00.279
mentioned this to me. He goes, why don't you just publish it anyway,

991
01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:03.159
Just publish the name of the person
who you think it is and see

992
01:15:03.159 --> 01:15:05.840
if you know, if you can
find it by now, at least get

993
01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:11.079
the damn name out there, so
somebody come back and corroborate it somehow,

994
01:15:11.079 --> 01:15:15.039
somebody with more resources than you have
and see what happened. So I would

995
01:15:15.039 --> 01:15:19.000
like to do that, And I
think I would like to finish that article,

996
01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:21.239
but I want to see who's who
might pay for it. If not,

997
01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:24.720
I'll just put it on the site
that I'm putting together right now that

998
01:15:24.720 --> 01:15:29.399
has my writings on it. There's
a lot of suspicion that Doty is Falcon.

999
01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:34.439
Well, that's completely, one hundred
percent absolutely wrong, okay, as

1000
01:15:34.479 --> 01:15:38.960
far as I can tell. I
mean, everything's an opinion. Right.

1001
01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:45.479
Well, the reason people say he's
Falcon is because one he told Linda how

1002
01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:48.880
that. Well, since when do
you trust Richard Doty's word on anything?

1003
01:15:49.720 --> 01:15:53.159
Right? One, you say he's
a big fat liar. And then when

1004
01:15:53.159 --> 01:15:56.159
you say he admitted to Linda Howell, and then why do you trust him

1005
01:15:56.159 --> 01:15:59.960
in that case and not in any
other case? That makes no sense.

1006
01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:04.600
And the other one was that was
brought up I think was that he had

1007
01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:09.920
he had admitted this to the producer
of UFO Cover Up Live. He had

1008
01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:15.319
said I am Falcon this producer,
and it's like, okay, so Doty

1009
01:16:15.479 --> 01:16:19.239
was also telling another person this.
So that makes two times Doty has said

1010
01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:23.640
something to somebody and you trust him
when you say he's a big liar in

1011
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:26.920
all every other case, it makes
no sense whatsoever. To be well,

1012
01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:30.319
I heard a story that the real
Falcon couldn't make it to that television show.

1013
01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:38.720
Dody stood in as him. Well, the real Falcon apparently, as

1014
01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:41.520
far as I can tell, did
make it to the show, sat in

1015
01:16:41.560 --> 01:16:44.479
the audience at least for part of
the time. But when they did the

1016
01:16:44.560 --> 01:16:47.920
voiceover things saying us government agent talking, it was when the strawberry ice cream

1017
01:16:47.960 --> 01:16:54.359
thing came out and embarrassed everyone.
The person that, you know, one

1018
01:16:54.359 --> 01:16:59.359
of them said Condor, which apparently
was Robert Collins, that he was in

1019
01:16:59.399 --> 01:17:03.279
shadow and his voice was altered,
and the other one said government in you

1020
01:17:03.319 --> 01:17:08.960
know, government agent or informant Falcon, and that was Dodie with his with

1021
01:17:09.079 --> 01:17:15.479
his voice altered, and the and
the uh in silhouette. Does that make

1022
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:18.720
them Condor and Falcon, Well,
it made him that for the for the

1023
01:17:18.760 --> 01:17:24.359
purposes of the show, that doesn't
mean that's who they were. And besides

1024
01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:27.840
that, you know, these are
designators that Bill Moore and Jamie Schanderay came

1025
01:17:27.920 --> 01:17:31.359
up with. They weren't any official
thing. They're just they're just words names

1026
01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:34.000
that people they came up with so
that they could refer to these people in

1027
01:17:34.039 --> 01:17:40.000
conversation on the phone, right,
which was talking about like they say,

1028
01:17:40.119 --> 01:17:42.560
they'd say, like, you know, Condor told me this, Oh they

1029
01:17:42.560 --> 01:17:45.279
know they're talking about Robert Collins or
Seagull told me this, Oh they know,

1030
01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:49.359
well they're talking about Bruce mccabee or
you know, they weren't necessarily government

1031
01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:56.199
agents either. Some of them were
just other researchers that that had access to

1032
01:17:56.199 --> 01:17:58.800
some of the same information. Or
Owl said this, Oh, well,

1033
01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:00.640
then they know they're talking about how
put off. Yeah, that was their

1034
01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:04.600
group of researchers and more was the
one who kind of created that, which

1035
01:18:04.760 --> 01:18:09.159
is a group called the aviary.
Yeah, well, him and Jamie Chandering.

1036
01:18:09.760 --> 01:18:15.000
But the person they referred to as
Falcon, who was, you know,

1037
01:18:15.079 --> 01:18:17.000
at the top of the thing.
You know, a falcon flies higher,

1038
01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:21.159
it basically has dominion over other birds. I would suppose anyway, they

1039
01:18:21.199 --> 01:18:25.000
called him Falcon because he was at
the top of the heap. He was

1040
01:18:25.039 --> 01:18:28.039
at the top of the pyramid that
ran this whole thing as far as they

1041
01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:31.159
could tell. Because you know,
Dotey took orders from him and a few

1042
01:18:31.159 --> 01:18:35.800
other people did too, and he
didn't care about the UFO thing. He

1043
01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:41.439
didn't he didn't you know, really
care at all. All he cound about

1044
01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:46.159
was finding Russian agents, catching them
and either them out of the country or

1045
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:49.600
fingering them so that the Russians would
say, well, can we have them

1046
01:18:49.640 --> 01:18:53.199
back so you can have our age. You know, the agent we caught

1047
01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:58.359
of yours and had to do with
the international espionage. Nothing about UFOs,

1048
01:18:58.399 --> 01:19:00.520
nothing about government deals with they,
is anything like that. That was all

1049
01:19:00.520 --> 01:19:05.680
in furtherance of this operation, of
which Bennowitz was a tiny, tiny,

1050
01:19:05.720 --> 01:19:11.439
tiny part. So you know,
UFO people look at this and think there

1051
01:19:11.479 --> 01:19:15.199
was a big conspiracy against the UFO
community. No, it was a big

1052
01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:21.680
conspiracy against Russian agents, and the
UFO community was involved in it for about

1053
01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:27.399
a fraction of a percent, you
know, of the whole picture. Now,

1054
01:19:27.479 --> 01:19:30.640
Dodie, like you mentioned, he
has really he changes his story a

1055
01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:33.880
lot, and it sounds like I
think in the book even that he gave

1056
01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:39.279
you conflicting information at times, which
is nothing new for him because he has

1057
01:19:40.359 --> 01:19:47.039
all throughout the period of time he's
talked to people in this community, which

1058
01:19:47.119 --> 01:19:51.479
then makes it difficult, like you
said, to believe anything that he has

1059
01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:56.279
to say. Yeah, but it
goes back to what I said is that

1060
01:19:56.479 --> 01:19:59.319
you play the game, and some
parts of the game are easy and some

1061
01:19:59.359 --> 01:20:03.319
parts are difficul called. And while
I like Richard Doty personally, he's been

1062
01:20:03.439 --> 01:20:08.640
nice to me. He's always been
polite to me. You know, it

1063
01:20:08.640 --> 01:20:12.920
doesn't mean I trust everything he says, and I should anybody else. However,

1064
01:20:13.079 --> 01:20:16.920
if he does tell you, you
know, forty things, and you

1065
01:20:17.000 --> 01:20:21.640
go check out those forty things and
five of them turn out to be corroborated

1066
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:29.600
by other people, circumstances, released
documents, open source things like news articles

1067
01:20:29.680 --> 01:20:32.600
or whatever, yeah, well then
I know that probably at least five percent

1068
01:20:32.600 --> 01:20:35.960
of what he told me was true. He told me lots of stuff.

1069
01:20:36.039 --> 01:20:40.359
I mean, I think probably five
percent of the stuff he told me actually

1070
01:20:40.359 --> 01:20:43.159
made it into the book because the
rest of it either wasn't important or I

1071
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:47.479
couldn't check it out right. And
then you have the situation because I brought

1072
01:20:47.479 --> 01:20:57.319
this up with Alexander because demonstrating an
actual secret Air Force project that had to

1073
01:20:57.319 --> 01:21:02.560
do with disinformation, and he,
because of course Alexander Field, there aren't

1074
01:21:02.680 --> 01:21:05.439
very many of these groups, and
the ones that are out there he knows

1075
01:21:05.479 --> 01:21:12.640
about. He kind of was in
burring because of his not answering directly that

1076
01:21:12.760 --> 01:21:17.359
Doty was working on his own,
kind of like some loan rogue. A

1077
01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:23.479
few ways, he was because they
give him in that in that sense Alexander

1078
01:21:23.560 --> 01:21:28.239
was actually being sort of truthful because
I talked to other people in a fos

1079
01:21:28.319 --> 01:21:32.439
I, specifically to my friend Walter, who was in a FOSI starting about

1080
01:21:32.439 --> 01:21:35.880
five years after Doty was out,
and Doty was a legend in a fos

1081
01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:43.000
I, and in the fact,
you know, in the in that he

1082
01:21:43.159 --> 01:21:46.680
was an example for a lot of
people what not to do. You get

1083
01:21:46.720 --> 01:21:50.479
a lot of latitude. Apparently when
you're an a FOSI agent, when you're

1084
01:21:50.520 --> 01:21:56.159
an Air Force intelligence you are told
this is your assignment or we need to

1085
01:21:56.159 --> 01:21:58.880
look into this or take care of
this, and then you go figure it

1086
01:21:58.920 --> 01:22:00.840
out. You know, you don't
have to take orders about what to do.

1087
01:22:01.720 --> 01:22:08.640
To go and use the resources available
to you, working within the laws

1088
01:22:08.680 --> 01:22:13.319
and the constraints of what you can
and can't do to complete that mission.

1089
01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:16.159
If that includes lying to people and
covering up your identity and all that,

1090
01:22:16.159 --> 01:22:24.079
that's fine. But apparently Dody went
a little bit further than that and said

1091
01:22:24.119 --> 01:22:28.720
things to people that were unauthorized and
caused some headaches for people higher up and

1092
01:22:28.760 --> 01:22:30.720
all that. So yeah, I
mean, he was very eager to do

1093
01:22:30.760 --> 01:22:33.960
things in his own way, to
the point that he went past some of

1094
01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:39.239
the regulations apparently, which is why
he got in trouble. Right now,

1095
01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:41.920
we're almost out of time, and
I have so much more I want to

1096
01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:44.960
ask about, but I guess I'll
just end on this and your take.

1097
01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:48.720
Then on Doty's meeting with Linda Howe
and he brings her to Kirkland Air Force

1098
01:22:48.760 --> 01:22:55.279
Base, and so it shows her
an alleged secret UFO document. Do you

1099
01:22:55.279 --> 01:23:00.760
think Dody really had that sort of
information? Do you think he had much,

1100
01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:05.439
if anything, on secret UFO information. I think he was handed a

1101
01:23:05.479 --> 01:23:12.159
bunch of stuff and then he was
told to gauge her reaction to it and

1102
01:23:12.199 --> 01:23:15.319
what she might do with it,
and how she would spread that information to

1103
01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:18.279
other researchers. And she did a
real good job of it, because at

1104
01:23:18.319 --> 01:23:25.119
the time she was flattered by the
attention, and she apparently repeated a lot

1105
01:23:25.159 --> 01:23:29.760
of it. As time went on, she realized that what that game was

1106
01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:32.479
and how that game was played,
and she got a lot better about weeding

1107
01:23:32.479 --> 01:23:38.079
out stuff from government people. At
least I think she did well. I

1108
01:23:38.119 --> 01:23:42.880
know she feels that document was one
accurate. Well, she was shown a

1109
01:23:42.880 --> 01:23:45.199
lot of stuff, But the thing
is she was only able. She wasn't

1110
01:23:45.239 --> 01:23:49.000
able to take a picture of it
or take notes or anything, so she

1111
01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:54.359
had to remember it. But what
happened was she's probably seen stuff that corroborates

1112
01:23:54.399 --> 01:24:00.920
it in different ways subsequently, you
know, years later, and figures that

1113
01:24:00.920 --> 01:24:02.640
that holds it up. I don't
know what she knows. I haven't seen

1114
01:24:02.680 --> 01:24:05.840
what she's seen, so I don't
know if i'd feel the same way.

1115
01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:09.199
To me, it just seems like, well, if you saw some stuff

1116
01:24:09.239 --> 01:24:13.760
later, maybe it corroborated stuff that
they were. You know, it was

1117
01:24:13.840 --> 01:24:16.079
it was a lie held up by
stuff you said you saw later. I

1118
01:24:16.119 --> 01:24:20.680
don't know, you know. But
the main, the main reason they did

1119
01:24:20.720 --> 01:24:26.760
that was because she was an up
and coming UFO researcher. She was interested

1120
01:24:26.760 --> 01:24:30.800
in cattle mutilations and either they wanted
to get her off that and get her

1121
01:24:30.800 --> 01:24:39.680
interested in something else, which it
didn't work right, or they and or

1122
01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:43.800
they wanted, like I said,
to get to gauge her reaction to something,

1123
01:24:44.199 --> 01:24:48.239
to a set of information and see
what she did with it, and

1124
01:24:48.279 --> 01:24:51.840
that you know, she was one, you know, vocal enough and to

1125
01:24:53.119 --> 01:24:56.359
go get her enough that she would
do something with it. Yeah, And

1126
01:24:56.520 --> 01:25:00.840
and she did. And that's that's
why the they had some contact with her

1127
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:05.159
for a while till finally either they
or she got tired of it and she

1128
01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:10.880
moved on to other things. And
later and I can't even think of why

1129
01:25:10.960 --> 01:25:15.560
right now, a lot of what
she had seen as what then was released

1130
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:23.399
and got labeled Project Aquarius, which
was originally that Benewitz document. Yeah,

1131
01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:26.640
I mean it. It would seem
to me, you know, looking at

1132
01:25:26.640 --> 01:25:29.479
that and seeing the history of that
and what happened later and what was labeled

1133
01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:34.000
as Project Aquarius, it would seem
to me and to most people that it's

1134
01:25:34.920 --> 01:25:39.600
very definitely mostly disinformation, if that's
what they're going to do with it,

1135
01:25:39.560 --> 01:25:42.800
if it's one thing one day and
one thing another another thing another day.

1136
01:25:43.319 --> 01:25:46.960
But basically I'll designed to late and
attract UFO researchers and people who listen to

1137
01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:51.960
them. M. Well, we're
out of time. But I really appreciate

1138
01:25:53.399 --> 01:25:58.560
what you do and this book Project
Beta. It's been great talking to you.

1139
01:25:58.600 --> 01:26:01.199
I've always wanted to talk to you
some more. And the website is

1140
01:26:01.319 --> 01:26:04.880
UFO mystic dot com where you do
your writing, and well, I don't

1141
01:26:04.920 --> 01:26:10.680
write there is often anymore, but
there's like four four years of nearly daily

1142
01:26:10.720 --> 01:26:15.159
writing there. But you can spend
days there checking out just my writing.

1143
01:26:15.520 --> 01:26:17.640
And then there's other people on the
site like Nick Redfern and Scott Carlis and

1144
01:26:17.920 --> 01:26:24.760
Regan Lee and Leslie Gunter. You
can also read their stuff too. Okay,

1145
01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:27.159
is there anything else you're up to
that you want to let people know

1146
01:26:27.199 --> 01:26:30.520
about. Yeah, well, my
radio show Radio mysterios is on Sunday nights

1147
01:26:30.520 --> 01:26:34.640
from eight to ten pm at kill
radio dot org that specific time, eight

1148
01:26:34.680 --> 01:26:41.760
to ten pm. And the site
Radio Mysterioso, which is m I S

1149
01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:48.159
T E r Ioso Radio in front
of It dot com is nearly up and

1150
01:26:48.199 --> 01:26:54.159
you'll be able to listen to the
shows and podcasts again probably within a week

1151
01:26:54.279 --> 01:26:58.119
or so. And I've been doing
this, I've been doing interviewing people on

1152
01:26:58.159 --> 01:27:02.039
the radio since nineteen so there's a
lot of shows that are loaded in,

1153
01:27:02.279 --> 01:27:05.720
a lot that are coming that are
in the archives. Awesome, cool,

1154
01:27:05.880 --> 01:27:09.279
all right, Well, thank you
so much for being on the show.

1155
01:27:09.920 --> 01:27:14.119
Well, thanks for having me.
It was it was fun, all right.

1156
01:27:14.600 --> 01:27:17.560
And remember that book is Project Beta. You can go get that at

1157
01:27:17.600 --> 01:27:23.159
Amazon dot com and it has a
lot of what we talked about in there,

1158
01:27:23.399 --> 01:27:28.199
and it was called Project Beta because
interesting enough, Benowitz wrote about everything

1159
01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:31.560
that he experienced and everything he got
from the Air Force, and this is

1160
01:27:31.600 --> 01:27:35.119
in the book. He called it
Project Beta when he wrote it all up.

1161
01:27:35.960 --> 01:27:40.520
Years later, Dody told him that
I liked to you some of that

1162
01:27:40.560 --> 01:27:44.239
stuff wasn't true, and Benowitz was
kind of just so far gone. He

1163
01:27:44.279 --> 01:27:47.319
said, no, I don't believe
you that this wasn't true. That you

1164
01:27:47.359 --> 01:27:53.880
know, he believed that it all
really was real. So and so do

1165
01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:59.800
many others out there, So the
legends continue. Remember that Greg is also

1166
01:27:59.800 --> 01:28:03.800
going to be at the wake Up
Now Conference, which is the URL for

1167
01:28:03.880 --> 01:28:09.920
that is Wakeupnowconference dot com and that
will be March twenty ninth to May first

1168
01:28:10.079 --> 01:28:15.800
in Aurbu Karacame. That is it
for our show. We are out of

1169
01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:21.680
time. Thank you all for joining
us once again listening to Openminds dot tv

1170
01:28:21.880 --> 01:28:28.319
for all your UFO news and information. Don't forget to check out the website

1171
01:28:28.319 --> 01:28:31.000
because we have the news going on, and then don't forget to join us

1172
01:28:31.079 --> 01:28:35.880
next week where we'll have another amazing
guest. Once again, thank you for

1173
01:28:36.079 --> 01:30:16.600
listening and we will talk to you
next week. To trap Trump to t Yes