WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:08.880 We understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.800 an idea. The population of atheists this country is going through the rule, 3 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:19.879 rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.839 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on 5 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:28.879 a book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 6 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:33.640 Take the risk of thinking feels so much more happiness. Truth Usian wisdom will 7 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:41.320 come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. 8 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:59.960 This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. So my wife 9 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:06.120 Life has been telling her friends in conversations they're talking about something else or texting 10 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:11.040 about something else, and she'll just sort of smirk at me and then interject 11 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:15.959 this. She'll say, Hey, by the way, if anything sketchy ever 12 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:22.200 happens to me, I disappear mysteriously or they find my body in a ditch, 13 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.239 I want you to tell the police that the first person they should look 14 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:34.879 at is my husband, because I'm a little nervous about the man. And 15 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:41.560 here's where that comes from. I'm a true crime addict. I know a 16 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:47.159 lot of it is trash television I know that sometimes they embellish or fill in 17 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:52.840 blanks with fiction, or ramp up the drama unnecessarily. I know that sometimes 18 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:59.599 true crime is not always true. I'm also fully aware of the CSI effect, 19 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:06.680 and this deals with our expectations the general public. Weaned on crime television, 20 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.719 we have this sort of mental picture of how the process is supposed to 21 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:14.960 go. Now, if you don't know what the CSI effect is, CSI 22 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:21.400 is a television crime show that released in October of two thousand on CBS. 23 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:27.560 This show blasted out of the ratings gate and dominated television. Everybody was watching 24 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.400 it, everybody was talking about it, and it's the type of TV forensic 25 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:38.159 cop crime show that you would expect week after week. Suspiciously attractive investigators are 26 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:46.240 using fancy forensic techniques to solve mostly murder cases. What happens in TV crime 27 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:53.360 The investigators outsmart that criminals and things are usually solved in short order. The 28 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:59.039 public perception, then, is that forensics is swift and clean and wan and 29 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:05.919 done, and there's always going to be a smoking gun. Forensics itself is 30 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.639 nothing new. We like to think that forensic examinations are novel and recent, 31 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:15.520 But I mean as long as there have been crime scenes, people have investigated 32 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:20.879 crime scenes. I'm reminded of this famous story. Forgive the digression, but 33 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:25.800 it's interesting. The story from like two thousand years ago about the Greek tyrant 34 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.039 of Syracuse, a guy named Hero the Second. He was not a good 35 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:36.000 guy. He was very vain, and he wanted a gold crown made for 36 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.479 himself, and so he hired a goldsmith. He gave him the raw material, 37 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:45.400 the pure gold, and he said, fashion me an amazing, beautiful 38 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:52.240 holy crown. And when the goldsmith delivered it, Hero the Second looked at 39 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:55.080 it and he was suspicious, and he thought, hey, wait a minute, 40 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.159 what are the chances that this guy took some of the goal for himself 41 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:08.000 secretly? And then he blended some other metals not as valuable into the crown, 42 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:12.879 easily disguised. It was still gold in color, It still looked like 43 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:17.319 gold, but not one hundred percent. And then the goldsmith just sort of 44 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:24.319 filled his own pocket, hoping nobody would notice. How was Hero the Second 45 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:30.839 gonna know the difference? Well, he brought in the famous Greek mathematician and 46 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:34.040 physicist Archimedes, and he said, I want you to figure this out. 47 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:40.240 Is it pure gold? Or is the guy ripping me off? Archimedes was 48 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.839 not allowed to take the crown apart, or damage it, or even scratch 49 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.639 it. Right, this was a holy object that had been dedicated to the 50 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:54.839 gods. How does he examine it without disturbing it? And according to our 51 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:59.439 history books, one day he was sitting in the bathtub and he noticed that 52 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:04.079 the more his body sank in the tub, the more water spilled out over 53 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:10.120 the edges. And he apparently had an epiphany in that moment, and he 54 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:15.439 jumped up stark naked, and he yelled eureka, eureka, And he ran 55 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.839 out and put together this experiment. He had the crown, and then he 56 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:25.399 had two masses of metal that were the very same weight. He had the 57 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:30.160 crown, then gold, a mass of gold, then a mass of silver, 58 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:34.319 and he took a large vessel filled it up to right at the brim 59 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:41.120 with water. He took the massive silver and he dropped it into the water, 60 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:45.839 and then he measured how much water spilled out. Then he filled it 61 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:49.040 back up and he grabbed the mass of gold. He dropped the gold in, 62 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:55.879 but not as much water spilled out, because gold is more dense than 63 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.959 silver. Meaning that even if it weighs the same, it will take up 64 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:05.240 less volume. After that, he grabbed the crown. He dropped it into 65 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:11.040 the full vessel of water, and he measured and low, and behold, 66 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:16.160 more water than should have been displaced by gold. Pure gold spilled out. 67 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:23.879 He had proven that the goldsmith had snuck in some cheaper metals into the crown 68 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.240 and apparently kept some of the gold for himself. Well, what is that 69 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:34.920 if not forensics fascinating story. The Chin dynasty, China, more than two 70 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:41.480 thousand years ago, they were filing autopsy reports, and the reason we know 71 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:47.079 this is because archaeologists have discovered them worldwide. By the early part of the 72 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:54.600 nineteenth century, police started to examine hair and fingerprints and blood more closely. 73 00:06:55.240 --> 00:07:00.800 Guns were becoming more popular, and so ballistics forensics sort of the involved with 74 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:05.839 them. The twentieth century saw us unlocking the mysteries of the human genome. 75 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:11.040 Before you know it, we've got computers getting into the game. The first 76 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:15.759 court case, a murder case involving DNA evidence, happened in nineteen eighty seven. 77 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:19.600 There was a guy accused of killing somebody else. They put him on 78 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:25.600 trial. They took a DNA sample and they compared it with the DNA of 79 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:32.519 five thousand other people, and this guy was cleared, the accused was exonerated, 80 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:41.279 and beyond that, the DNA evidence implicated and ultimately convicted somebody else. 81 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.800 The FBI would have a full DNA database starting in nineteen ninety eight. And 82 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:53.279 of course we talk about genetic testing all the time today. Crime scene investigation 83 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:59.439 the CSI effect. We think we expect, hey, somebody sweep up the 84 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:03.680 fibers and check the fabrics and look for the prints and test the secretions and 85 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.319 whatever, and you will find the killer. And if you don't, it's 86 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.879 your fault. But of course this is not how things go down in the 87 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:18.480 real world. I'm not saying that there aren't mistakes and efficiencies, bureaucracy, 88 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:24.279 laziness, oversights, corruption, or just incompetence. I'm not saying that we 89 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.920 won't find examples of people being like this, because you'll find it in any 90 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.559 situation where human beings are involved. But even when the pros are professional and 91 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:41.120 the process is working as it should, our expectations can be really unrealistic. 92 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:48.600 We're thinking we're going to get CSI, CSI Vegas, CSI New York CSI, 93 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:54.960 Miami or whatever fast and flashy crime drama we've been binging for the last 94 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:01.000 two weeks. And this is the case even with true crime shows like The 95 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.279 First forty eight and the idea there is that most cases are blown wide open 96 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:11.080 and the killers are discovered and arrested within the first forty eight hours. You 97 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.159 got two days, and after that then things go cold and most criminals will 98 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.840 get away with it. So whatever you're going to find, whoever you're going 99 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.519 to find, you got to do it in the first forty eight hours or 100 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:31.159 you're host. So now you've got the general public developing unrealistic expectations while they've 101 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:37.720 been watching the real I have a confession. I'm a sucker for a show 102 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.320 on h l N called Forensic Files. This is an older show. It 103 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.720 started back in the nineteen nineties, narrated by one of my favorite voices in 104 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.919 all of broadcasting, a guy named Peter Thomas. He passed away some years 105 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.639 ago, but I just love his voice, so authoritative and professional and compelling. 106 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:03.039 I'd watch Forensic Files just to listen to Peter Thomas. But I will 107 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.679 sit in front of the television for show after show. Each episode is about 108 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.440 twenty three minutes, and they just loop on hl N. I will be 109 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:18.639 at a convention. After a long day at the event, I will go 110 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:26.480 back and decompress in the hotel room, binging forensic files until I finally fall 111 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:31.639 asleep. And of course I watched this show at home. So Natalie and 112 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:37.039 I are sitting there and she's passively listening to whatever crime is being portrayed on 113 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.000 screen's I don't know, she's reading, or she's scrolling her phone, or 114 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.080 just kind of resting with the dogs, and I am locked onto the murder 115 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:52.879 mystery. The forensic evidence discovered and examined. You know, the imprint of 116 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.960 the killer's shoe. It was a size eleven and a half combat boot a 117 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:05.279 specific man, not very many of those in the United States. I wonder 118 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:11.559 where this was purchased. There's a fingerprint belonging to somebody who did not live 119 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:18.440 in that house. They scrape out some skin cells from underneath the step mother's 120 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:26.440 fingernails. There's blood spatter in the back of the creepy white serial killer Van 121 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:33.879 Arson. Investigators find out that there was accelerant next to the victim who burned 122 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:39.080 to death in what was supposed to be an electrical fire. This is the 123 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.639 whole vibe of forensic files. And I'm sitting there watching, and as I'm 124 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:50.039 watching, the gears in my head are turning. The criminals are getting caught 125 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:54.000 because they made mistakes, or they had a bad method, or they just 126 00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:00.720 left a trail unnecessarily. So as I'm watching, I'm thinking, well, 127 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.799 I could do that better. I wouldn't make that mistake. Here's my method, 128 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:09.159 Here's how I would get away with it. And then I articulate these 129 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:16.240 thoughts to my wife, and Natalie says, who thinks like that? Is 130 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.840 there something you want to tell me? Have you been living a double life? 131 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:26.000 Are you secretly a serial killer? Because that's information that I would sure 132 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.559 like to have. And I always smile and go, baby, you're safe. 133 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.840 I'm good. I know. I'm a lover. I'm not a fighter. 134 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:41.600 I'd never hurt anybody. I'm just saying, if I was a criminal, 135 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.559 I could do a hell of a lot better than old Buster butt Scratch, 136 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.120 who lives in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, who buried the murder weapon out 137 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.120 in his yard next to the hot tub. That's all I'm saying. Okay, 138 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:03.279 I could do better. Natalie says, all right, fine, if 139 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.159 you were going to murder me, how would you get away with it? 140 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:15.559 Now, I'm not taking this bait. Yeah, I've not taken that bait. 141 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.879 I'm smarter than that. I said, baby, I'd never murder you. 142 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:24.120 I am safe people. And then she says, okay, fine, 143 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.759 it's not me. If you murdered somebody else, how would you get away 144 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:33.360 with it? And I'm still qualifying, right, well, this is just 145 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.679 hypothetical. We're just talking. This is I mean, nothing here has anything 146 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.679 to do with who I am as a human being. I am an agent 147 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.919 of healing, not harm. I'm just overcompensating. Having said that, here 148 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.720 are a few things I would do to get away with murder. And as 149 00:13:52.759 --> 00:14:00.320 her face remains totally blank, I start to lay out my evil plan and 150 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:05.240 I say, first of all, fibers. Fibers are always a problem at 151 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.240 crime scenes. Clothing. You know, you got your shirt, in your 152 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.799 pants, your socks, whatever, it's always fibers falling out. Then there 153 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:18.919 are skin cells which might be shed somewhere that's potential d in a evidence, 154 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:26.080 hair falling out of my head that may incriminate me, fingerprints I inadvertently leave 155 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:30.559 on a doorknob, or a shell, or a table, or even the 156 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:35.360 victim. That's a problem. So here's how I would create a protective shield 157 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:41.919 to keep any of me from remaining at the scene. I would encase myself 158 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.320 in saran wrap, and then I would dig out eye holes and put on 159 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:52.840 goggles, and maybe put on some kind of a mask, a gas mask 160 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:56.320 or one of those N ninety five masks, medical masks for breathing. So 161 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:03.919 I'm not exhaling any implyting genetic evidence onto the scene. I'm totally covered up, 162 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.440 and I'm moving fast so I don't have to worry about overheating. But 163 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:16.799 I am totally wrapped in plastic wrap. Natalie is processing that visual. She's 164 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:22.639 envisioning her husband totally saran wrapped, about to enter the crime scene. But 165 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.120 she is still listening. And then I say, this, shoe prints. 166 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:35.480 How many times has a killer left imprints even on concrete or tile. Certainly 167 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:39.440 if they go out and step in the dirt or mud, that's just dumb. 168 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:45.519 I would invent a solution for that. Now I wear a size fourteen 169 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:52.360 shoe. I would mount a shoe underneath the shoe. Not stilts, but 170 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:58.600 just a few inches under my size fourteen sole would be a smaller soul that 171 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:03.679 would eliminate me as a suspect. And I would practice walking around in these 172 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:10.679 sort of manufactured shoes over shoes. I would get really good at my movement 173 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:15.720 so that I wouldn't tip over and give myself away. Now the cops are 174 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.840 looking for a size ten and not a size fourteen. I think that's clever. 175 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.919 My wife is getting increasingly uncomfortable. If I had better judgment, I 176 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:33.799 might listen to it, but I continue anyway. I'm right handed. I 177 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:41.440 would practice doing everything left handed so it looks totally organic and natural. Then 178 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:48.320 they might be looking for a left hander. That seems prudent. If I 179 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.919 was doing a tandem crime with somebody else, we would speak in a different 180 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:59.759 language, something other than English, because I only speak English. So if 181 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:04.880 they're looking for someone who speaks a different language, that might rule me out 182 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:10.240 as well. And this is something we could practice certain words that we harvested 183 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.920 and had ready. Of course, my first thought was, well, what's 184 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:18.039 the second most popular language in the United States. It's going to be Spanish. 185 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.319 And I thought at first, well, that would you know, that 186 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:26.119 would really increase the suspect pool beyond me or make it harder to pin me 187 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.200 down. Natalie brought up this since she's absolutely right. She's like, oh, 188 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.720 great, you will potentially implicate someone else, and you will add to 189 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:42.319 the stereotype of the immigrant criminal in the United States. And I had to 190 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.680 give her that one. And then I thought, well, wait a minute, 191 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.400 I'm already a killer. I have no moral center anyway. What do 192 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:53.559 I care what stereotype I perpetrate? But I okay, fine, I take 193 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.279 her point. And then I think, well, how about a different, 194 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:03.440 more obscure language from a cross the ocean. The man caught on security video 195 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:10.400 was speaking Belarusian. Do I think that detectives are going to hop on a 196 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.079 plane, go to Belarus and start knocking on doors to ask questions? I 197 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:23.160 do knot. Another language seems prudent. I would not keep certainly, I 198 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:32.599 wouldn't park in my driveway the evil scary Painter's white nineteen seventy seven serial killer 199 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:38.079 van. How many people keep driving around with the car they used to perpetrate 200 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:45.799 the crimes. I would paint it and sell it. I would maybe dig 201 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.240 a huge hole in a field and just bury the whole thing. I certainly 202 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:53.160 wouldn't be driving around town where a cop could pull me over for a routine 203 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:57.200 stop. You got an expired tag or a tailed is out by the way, 204 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:02.039 Can you open the back doors at the van and let me take an 205 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:07.319 inspection? Holly? Yet, why do you have a human body sized freezer 206 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:12.599 that has bloodstains on it? Now? This seems easily avoided, I'm just 207 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:18.279 saying. And then I finish with an idea that I admit is totally dark, 208 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:25.640 but it has always bugged me. Why do killers leave the body where 209 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:30.680 it is quickly and easily discovered. I think the whole point is as little 210 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:36.359 evidence as possible. Why drop it in the river so it washes up on 211 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.799 shore. Why just stick it under a few leaves and branches. It'll be 212 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:44.759 found immediately if you bury it. Why only bury it eighteen inches? You're 213 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.480 at the mercy of the next big rain. No what I would do, 214 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.799 And I got this idea from somebody on my own Facebook page, so I'm 215 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.079 not the only one who thinks like this. I would use a post hole 216 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:04.160 digger, something that vertically and I would dig way down to about fifteen feet 217 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:10.960 and I would bury the body vertically. I would fill the hole up to 218 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:14.960 a certain height, and then I would add some rock near where the natural 219 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.079 rock table would be, and then I don't know, a couple of feet 220 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:23.960 under the surface, I would put roadkill, probably a dog. I'm not 221 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.279 going to kill a dog. I'm not a monster, right, I'm not 222 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.599 going to kill a dog. But unfortunately in our world there are dogs who 223 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:37.359 are hit by cars and whatever. So I would find one and I would 224 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:45.359 bury it maybe two feet under the actual surface of the ground. So the 225 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:49.119 surge parties out. Everybody's doing the grid. They've got the cadaver dogs. 226 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:55.359 Hey, they get a hit, the ground is doug up, there's a 227 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:02.640 dog that has been decomposing. False positive. They check that spot off their 228 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:07.160 list and they go away. I've been working it out in my brain. 229 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:15.519 That seems like it might work now. Since that day, since that conversation, 230 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:22.880 my wife has not looked at me the same way. She's like, 231 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:30.319 you have a dark side? Something wrong with you? Who thinks like this? 232 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:34.559 And I told her, Honey, I don't care how sweet and kind, 233 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:41.839 cherub faced and wonderful you are, you have a dark side. I'm 234 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:48.920 convinced every human being has a dark dungeon in the back of their skull somewhere. 235 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.160 I don't care who you are. I don't care how many protests you 236 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.759 hear from people who say their thoughts only consist of happy, happy, joy 237 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.559 joy, lifetime movie harps and confetti and gold light. You know, I 238 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:07.720 don't care how many people tell you that they're lying. I'm convinced everybody has 239 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:14.559 a dark side, and I have been reading some research on this that having 240 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:18.640 a dark side is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it might 241 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.400 be healthy. Oh, we got to talk about this. I'm going to 242 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:30.279 share more about what I have been reading on humanity's dark side. Next, 243 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:41.200 we're talking about the dark side, the dark shade of human nature. Do 244 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.200 we all have that dark side? I'll make a confession, since I've been 245 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.680 talking about my own thoughts, mostly because I want you to feel safe to 246 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:53.640 have those thoughts as well, or at least to entertain what they are, 247 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:59.640 to understand why they exist, and so fine, I'll put myself out there 248 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.240 and will share a specific from my past. It was one of my first 249 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:08.079 radio jobs. I was in my early twenties. Granted, I was kind 250 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:12.599 of a hot, tempered, piss and vinegar young twenty something, so I 251 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:18.559 was pretty ramped up, but I had a boss at a Christian station. 252 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:27.359 The owner of that business one of the worst people I have ever met. 253 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:33.640 It is rare in my life that I use the word hate. I mean, 254 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.400 I talk all the time about how we want to defeat hate on this 255 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.680 planet. Maybe you are like me, desperate to find some redemption, some 256 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:49.759 redeeming quality in everybody, or almost everybody. I am telling you this guy 257 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:56.720 was just poison, insecure, temperamental, demeaning. He would just walk in. 258 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.480 He's one of those guys when he would walk in the room, and 259 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:07.240 when he walked in the building, the temperature cooled. Everybody got tense, 260 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.559 speaking voices turned into whispers, and everybody was like, is he here? 261 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:17.160 Is he still here? Has he left? Does anybody know when he's gonna 262 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.759 leave? Because we couldn't wait for him to leave. His presence meant that 263 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:26.680 at any moment he might turn the corner, walk into your room and make 264 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:33.200 you feel like shit, just destroy you verbally, and then remind you that 265 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:37.599 because he wrote the checks and he determined who got hired and fired, he 266 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:44.279 essentially held your destiny, your job, maybe even your career and future in 267 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.759 his hands and having made that proclamation and firmly put you in your place. 268 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:56.119 He would turn and waltz out the door, conscience free. I hated that 269 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:02.599 man, and I fantasized one day he'd walk in the room, dress me 270 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.279 down, make me feel like shit, just go off, and I'd let 271 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:12.880 him finish, and then I would throw him through plate glass. I think 272 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:18.119 we've all had those moments where we say, it's a good thing for you. 273 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:25.720 I'm civilized. A man named doctor Leon Seltzer. He has a doctor 274 00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:32.480 in both English and psychology. Former professor at Queen's College in Cleveland, State. 275 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:37.160 He's written several books on psychology, and he writes the Evolution of the 276 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:45.599 Self blog, and he has this article just how dark is your dark side? 277 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:49.519 Doctor Seltzer says this, when we talk about having a dark side, 278 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:57.559 where're generally calling attention to our most aggressive or lustful anti social instincts, or 279 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:04.720 the mean spirited, blood thirsty belligerents presumably lurking deep within us, or our 280 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:11.839 acting out impulses that would disrupt others' lives, if not outright decimate them, 281 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:18.119 rape, mutilation, murder, unconscionable acts of thievery, betrayal, treachery, 282 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:25.480 sadism, massochism, unbounded greed, incest, and so on. But what 283 00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:30.440 I'd like to suggest here is that perhaps your darkest fantasies shouldn't be understood as 284 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:37.720 all that demonic, or at least they can be much more compassionately appreciated as 285 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.839 audacious, disinhibited, primitive, grandiose, or hedonistic, as opposed to say, 286 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:52.079 degrading, disgraceful, or nefarious. Freud, in his classic Civilization and 287 00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:59.200 its Discontents nineteen twenty nine, postulated that being part of a civilized society safeguards 288 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:04.440 us from personal chaos, from being dominated by our moral id So, as 289 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:11.279 civilized beings, we appoint communal authorities like police to protect us not simply from 290 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:17.680 others' baser impulses, but also our own. Yet, to Freud, this 291 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:25.720 necessary protection also culminates in our discontent, for we're thereby required to subdue our 292 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:33.119 pleasure seeking instinctual drives. To live harmoniously with others, we must subdue our 293 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:40.319 otherwise impetuous desires. I believe most people would agree that, although it's somewhat 294 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:45.839 reductive, there's something profoundly true in Freud's assumptions about the human psyche. At 295 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:51.279 the same time, I think that while we may be wired to at least 296 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:57.960 imagine what it might be like to boldly and unabashedly follow our inborn predilections and 297 00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:06.119 without the slightest regard for how they might affect others, just envisioning ourselves engaging 298 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:11.880 in such behaviors hardly means that finally we'd choose to enact them. After all, 299 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:18.440 in so many ways, we need literally to rely on others for survival. 300 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:23.519 Additionally, we're a gregarious species, and so wouldn't want to do things 301 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:29.720 that might offend others and alienate them from us. Though we might not be 302 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:36.759 able to resist fantasizing various acts that might enable us to freely pursue our altogether 303 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:44.160 personal pleasure principle, the overwhelming majority of us are strongly motivated to restrain ourselves 304 00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:52.920 from actually carrying out such clearly sociopathic behaviors. Given these natural internal constraints, 305 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:59.440 we need to question whether our dark side is ultimately all that dark. That 306 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:03.960 is, we're generally cognizant that whatever fantasies we may have of power, revenge, 307 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:11.240 conquest, or reckless expression of libido are just that fantasies, but by 308 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:18.000 permitting ourselves to at least daydream about them, we can afford ourselves some kind 309 00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:25.240 of compensatory gratification. At a safe remove from reality. We can offer ourselves 310 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:32.400 the alternative of imagining what in actuality we wouldn't really choose to do, or, 311 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:36.160 for that matter, be, And in that sense, our dark side 312 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:42.200 can be seen as well rather innocent. Permitting it to surface in day dreams 313 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:49.000 represents a measured indulgence, offering us an escape from the pro social behavior that 314 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:55.759 almost all of us regularly elect to participate in. For we do want and 315 00:29:55.960 --> 00:30:00.079 need to keep our social ties safe and secure. Though we may have a 316 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:07.519 competitive streak in is, we also place a high value on interpersonal cooperation. 317 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:15.079 So voluntarily we monitor our impulses and we take care to keep them in check. 318 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:22.480 And as a respite from all our self discipline and forbearance, we periodically 319 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:29.359 permit ourselves to fabricate a world than which our desires, however outrageous or antisocial, 320 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:37.200 might nonetheless reign supreme. Given that our dark side embodies are more primitive 321 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:45.240 pleasure or power seeking instincts, must we zealously avoid disclosing it or reject it 322 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:51.079 as despicable, something other than respectably human, and therefore to be shunned and 323 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:56.920 repudiated. In the end, such dark predictions really can't be seen as intrinsically 324 00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:04.119 culpable, and that most of them merely represent appetites or urges innates in all 325 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:11.559 of us. So might we finally honor them, appreciating our most aggressive or 326 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:19.319 erotic fantasies day dreams and many night dreams too, as a psychological safety valve. 327 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:26.680 To me, unsatisfactory alternative is to view them shamefully, as depicting a 328 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.920 part of us so abhorrent that it must be hidden from others and, if 329 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:37.519 possible, from ourselves as well. Many psychology researchers have written about the practical 330 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:45.640 utility of day dreams, for as already suggested, they can function positively as 331 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:51.440 a much needed outlet for our frustrations, enabling us to give at least covert 332 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:57.920 expression to impulses and inclinations we know would be foolhardy or hazardous to act out, 333 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:06.759 and so are simply entertaining such fantasies doesn't really reflect any disastrous potential that 334 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:12.960 must thereby be viewed as dark or depraved. The reason that horror movies are 335 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.839 perennially popular, especially among the young, is that they too enable us to 336 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:28.240 experience a safe release from or vicarious expression of our most primitive anti social instincts, 337 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:34.559 and the same is true for many TV shows like Dexter. We are 338 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:42.359 finally all animals, and what helps us to transcend the raw instincts of our 339 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:49.279 more primitive, less evolved ancestors is that, in our highly developed interest in 340 00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:57.279 pro social behavior, almost all of us freely consent to forego id related pleasures, 341 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:02.079 the pursuit of which we realize would hurt others and almost certainly come back 342 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:08.079 to haunt us for both inner and outer balance. We have a fundamental need 343 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:15.119 to express, however indirectly, our whole being, and we hardly need deny 344 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:22.359 our forbidden thoughts, for they're only a relatively small segment of what's naturally inside 345 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:29.559 us. Fully accepting our basic humanity actually necessitates that we acknowledge and make peace 346 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:36.200 with our so called dark side, which finally is far less dark when we 347 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:40.440 see it for what it is. As Carl Jung said, everyone carries a 348 00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:45.880 shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the 349 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:52.680 blacker and denser. It is moreover, young believe that, in spite of 350 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:58.640 its function as a reservoir for human darkness, or perhaps because of this, 351 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:04.920 the shadow is the seat of creativity. And it makes perfect sense that if 352 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:10.639 creativity entails a certain freedom from our customary constraints and thought and feeling, then 353 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:19.760 giving ourselves the license to create also involves granting ourselves the privilege to inwardly explore 354 00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:27.320 and outwardly express the darker side of our latent tendencies and impulses. It may 355 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.960 well be that what makes a work of our great in the first place is 356 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:36.400 its universality, And what makes it universal is that it addresses so much of 357 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:43.119 what resides deep inside us, the unprincipled and ignominious, as well as the 358 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:47.320 wholesome, praiseworthy, and noble. I'll close with a set of four brief 359 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:52.000 quotes, all of them suggest in just a few words much of what I've 360 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:59.960 labored to express in so many more. And the quotes he includes are the 361 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:05.320 This Anthony Hopkins, the actor who made so famous the character of Hannibal Lecter. 362 00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:09.000 Hopkins, the actor said, I think the healthy way to live is 363 00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:15.440 to make friends with the beast inside oneself, and that means not the beast, 364 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:20.360 but the shadow, the dark side of one's nature. So have fun 365 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:28.280 with it and accept everything about yourself. Self help author John Bradshaw said this 366 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:32.280 evil is a source of moral intelligence, in the sense that we need to 367 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:37.079 learn from our shadow, from our dark side, in order to be good. 368 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:43.679 Sue Grafton, who is the author of so many detective novels, wrote 369 00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.159 this. She said, we all need to look into the dark side of 370 00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:52.239 our nature. That's where the energy is, the passion. People are afraid 371 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:57.920 of that because it holds pieces of us we are busy denying. And the 372 00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:02.360 article finishes with a quote from film and stage actor Sheryl Lee, who said 373 00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:07.719 this, the more we deny that we have a dark side, the more 374 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:15.840 power it has over us. I have calls with callers who apparently have a 375 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:22.199 dark side lurking just beneath the skin, and let's find out what they have 376 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:31.599 to say after this. I am about two and a half weeks out from 377 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:37.039 speaking in Orlando, Florida. That's going to be March seventeenth. I've also 378 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.880 got a whole bunch of dates, not just my speaking events, but conventions 379 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:46.519 American Atheist and Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance anyway, all of 380 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.440 these events Los Angeles, Little Rock, Kansas City, Saint Louis, Denver, 381 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:58.800 and more. Just scroll and find the city near you the Thinkingatheist dot 382 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:08.760 com slash events. We continue talking about our dark side, the uncivilized primate 383 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:15.760 lurking just beneath the skin of the civilized primate. Three one seven is it? 384 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:20.400 Josh? Can you hear me? Uh? Yeah? What do you 385 00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:24.559 think about this? My father was put on drugs when he was a baby, 386 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:30.440 and when he met my mother, he overdosed a lot, was taken 387 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:34.039 to a hospital, was taken off the drugs, but because he had such 388 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.800 a history with drugs, he hallucinated an angel and thought God was talking to 389 00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:44.400 him. And so with this new found faith, he then indoctrinated all of 390 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.800 my siblings, which are five of us, into his faith. And when 391 00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:52.599 I was a kid growing up, I was never taught critical thinking. I 392 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:57.960 was never taught like who I am. Truly, when I was about eleven, 393 00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:04.400 my parents both heavy evangelicals. My world was that house. My world 394 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:08.639 was that perception of what my father taught us, and so I never knew 395 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:13.639 anything outside of it. And we were homeschooled, living in the country, 396 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:19.800 and so as a kid growing up, I thought that getting beat with a 397 00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:24.079 mighty might attachment was normal. I thought when my dad would use a pig 398 00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:30.039 whip on us, that was normal. I thought when he screamed and yelled 399 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:34.159 and did terrible things, that was normal, because that was my world. 400 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.239 But as I got older, it was harder and harder for him to keep 401 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:44.159 that world together. And eventually I started asking questions and he started putting me 402 00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:47.280 under more dogma, making me feel bad, trying to destroy my sense of 403 00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:51.840 self, trying to put me back under that perception of what he wants me 404 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:55.760 to be. He stopped schooling me and my twin brother because, according to 405 00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:00.119 my parents, what would you do with an education. When I was about 406 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:05.719 twenty five or twenty six, that's when the brainwashing pretty much totally broke. 407 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:12.119 I was suicidal and I didn't know myself. I remember when I was leaving 408 00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:16.000 the house, I went up to the train tracks and started crying because I 409 00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:20.480 had no education. I didn't even know how to fill out a check. 410 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:28.360 I realized that I didn't matter. They were just using the Bible in order 411 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:35.119 to abuse all my siblings and me and they just didn't care. Do you 412 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:40.599 ever find yourself having dark thoughts about all of this? Well, the way 413 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:44.800 that I've gotten over dark thoughts, especially in the early days of this, 414 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:50.400 was pretty much trying to gain as much knowledge as humanly possible. My thing 415 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:54.760 is trying to use logic and reason and trying to learn who my father really 416 00:39:54.840 --> 00:40:00.840 is and my mother. It's what kept the bad thoughts away. I mean, 417 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:04.280 with what you said, you wanted to take that guy who's a dick 418 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.079 to you and throw them out a window. Yeah, I've had those thoughts. 419 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.639 I think everybody at some point has had those thoughts when it comes to 420 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:15.639 fantasizing and having a dark side. Now that I can think critically and logically, 421 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:21.719 oh hell yeah, there's many times I wanted to go over to their 422 00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.760 house, kick the door in, run up to this guy and just pick 423 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:29.639 him off the ground and make him realize, oh shit, he's going to 424 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:34.400 kick my hat. But the thing is, I think I've come to the 425 00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:38.079 point now where I don't even feel sorry anymore. I just look at him 426 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:43.039 and I'm like, what hell did you go through to make you into such 427 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:47.719 a lunatic? That's actually an important point. Many of the abusers have been 428 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:53.199 abused, many of the victimizers are in some ways victims. It sounds like 429 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:59.920 that we're excusing the behavior. The fact that you have that perspective is just, 430 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.199 I think, real maturity. So thank you for being a part of 431 00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.480 the conversation. This is actually a little more sort of sobering than I had 432 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:10.719 started. I feel like, I hope I'm doing your call justice after I 433 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:15.760 do a whole twenty minute ranch full of I'm cracking jokes about crime scenes, 434 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:20.719 you know. But no, no, you're good, Josh, Breathe the 435 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:23.920 free air, my friend, and thanks for being a part of today's broadcast. 436 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.559 It's been great talking with you, you two, sir, all right, 437 00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:32.960 take care David at nine one nine, are you there? Nice? 438 00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:38.599 That's dark side, I definitely have one. Never had a hard life. 439 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:44.000 I grew up in a not very rich household at all. My father was 440 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:51.159 a Baptist minister in the North American Baptist so wealth was the only privilege I 441 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:55.760 wasn't born with. And haven't had any major blows in my life. I'm 442 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:00.280 sixty eight almost and you know, a couple medical things, but nothing really 443 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:08.400 big, So no life experience to make me have dark thoughts, especially towards 444 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:15.119 myself, but I have them. I'm a huge fan of Dexter, and 445 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:16.559 you know, I watched that show, and I think of how I might 446 00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:22.880 want to dispose of somebody so I couldn't get caught. And there's a certain 447 00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:29.239 public figure whom I would love to see a particular brand of great harm come 448 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.159 to. And I won't go into details, stopping there for a second because 449 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:35.559 I think you and I might be in the zip code. But I try 450 00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.679 to frame it like this. I would never want external harm to come, 451 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:45.079 but if they had a sudden aneurism, I would not be all that grieved. 452 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:46.920 Is that a terrible thing to say? I wish I could see me 453 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:52.679 nodding, and yes, that's exactly where I'm at. And I'd wish a 454 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.280 certain particular outcomes of that said aneurysm. That's a hard thing to say. 455 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:04.559 Yeah, And like, we have someone down the street from me who flew 456 00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:07.760 a Trump flag constantly. Now he fled I live in Virginia. Now he 457 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:13.840 flies underneath the American flag. He's got a youngin flag. And I drive 458 00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.320 fast at and I think of like parking in the high school parking lot across 459 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:22.639 from that during school with binoculars to check out the flag pole, and then 460 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:25.880 coming by at night and parking around a corner dressed all in black, and 461 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:30.960 I'm gonna cut that frickin' youngkin flag down. And it's just a I think 462 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:37.400 it's literally it's a it's a healthy release, assuming you don't act on it, 463 00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:42.559 of course, but just entertaining these thoughts is sort of the same as 464 00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:46.480 watching the true crime shows and things like that. Thanks for calling, and 465 00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:51.519 thanks for the kind words. I enjoyed. I enjoy your I appreciate you 466 00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:59.199 so very much. Thanks man. Take care. Jenny at two zero nine, 467 00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:04.360 thanks for waiting. Are you there, Yes, I'm here. Recently 468 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:08.440 I've been holding back my dark side, but I've come to a conclusion that 469 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:15.239 with all these attacks on women's healthcare and now they're going after ibs, which 470 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:19.960 that is the only way I got one of my grandsons, it makes them 471 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:25.559 so angry. These people don't even have a medical degree and they make decisions 472 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:30.039 on women. So now, you know, I try to channel it. 473 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:34.079 You know, it's like, should we start protesting churches? Should we do 474 00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:37.199 stuff? No, I think we need to start a movement to take away 475 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:42.119 their Dackstreet exemption. Jenny, let me give some quick context to people who 476 00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:46.199 aren't in the know, especially that we have an international audience. The Alabama 477 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:57.119 Supreme Court just ruled that frozen embryos are human beings and if anyone destroys an 478 00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:02.320 embryo, that's essentially murder, kind of murder. And now there are organizations 479 00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:09.440 who are shutting down. They're in vitro fertilization programs because you essentially, they 480 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.760 don't want to be prosecuted for murder. And there's all these other things going 481 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:17.840 on. The couples who are going through IVF treatments are horrified. It is 482 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.360 just traumatizing and an assault on human rights, and it's just stupid. I 483 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:27.280 saw somebody and they showed they had a dozen eggs in the passenger seat of 484 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.840 their car, and they said, now I'm going to drive in the hov 485 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:36.079 lane because now I have thirteen people in the car according to the Alabama Supreme 486 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:38.480 Court. And you're right, they don't have medical degrees. They're spouting the 487 00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.960 name of God every ten seconds. Zalots. The Christian nationalists, they are 488 00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:50.719 using xelotry and ideology to make law, and they're forcing their limited value system 489 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:53.559 down everybody else's throats and it makes us enraged. And I think your anger 490 00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:58.800 is absolutely understandable. Jenny, Yeah. I mean I listen to people all 491 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:04.559 the time, and older people who are really heartbroken that their kids aren't even 492 00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.719 going to give them grandchildren because of the way the situations are going. They 493 00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:13.719 don't feel safe, and I don't blame them. My two daughters went through 494 00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:20.119 pregnancy during COVID and one had to do IVF, and she went through so 495 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:25.519 much to have my grandson that you know, I was just heart wrenching to 496 00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:30.400 me because I couldn't be so close to her and everything. But I do 497 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:32.280 you know, at one point my girls had said maybe we're not going to 498 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:37.039 have kids, you know, And I couldn't hold it against them, But 499 00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:40.599 I do know more and more women are deciding either to have their tips tied 500 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:45.880 or whatever because they don't want to be put in bad situations and looked on 501 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:51.760 as a second class citizen. Doesn't the dark part of us occasionally admit to 502 00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:55.280 saying, wouldn't it be nice to take all of the Alabama Supreme Court who 503 00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:01.840 voted for this and put them in a van and them to an island surrounded 504 00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:07.519 by sharks and alligators and radio. It's just an island that they cannot leave, 505 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:14.280 and you know, give them and then the rest of us go and 506 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.360 evolve society. You know, you go over here and you be small and 507 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:22.599 restrictive and paranoid and fearful and controlling. Have a nice day, you guys 508 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:24.960 ruin each other's lives. We're going to go over here and evolve as a 509 00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:29.880 species. I do fantasize about that, yeah, I mean, the one 510 00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:36.159 of the Supreme Court judges down there talks about how there's some sort of seven 511 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:42.880 pillar Christian thing that they're trying to rule all parts of government, and I'm 512 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.480 like, are you freaking kidding me? You know, what happens in Alabama 513 00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:52.440 is really a reflection of what's happening in Bible Belt states, key parts of 514 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.920 the United States. You know, they don't just want to do this in 515 00:47:55.960 --> 00:48:00.239 one part of the country. They have a mission to overtake the colorlture. 516 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:05.280 They want Gilead. Your anger is understandable, and I think it's understandable if 517 00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.480 you and I occasionally go back into our dark closet and say, what if 518 00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:14.079 something happened to those guys and we didn't have to worry about him anymore. 519 00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:15.679 We don't want harm to come to them. I'm just saying, if the 520 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:20.960 aliens came, you know, if you're going to probe anybody, can you 521 00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:23.920 probe the people on the Alabama Supreme Court and keep them all night? You 522 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:27.599 know, they don't have to be anywhere. I'm just saying, Jenny, 523 00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:30.800 thanks for calling this show, and hang in there. Okay, okay, 524 00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:37.760 all later. She is referring to what's called the Seven Mountains mandate. There 525 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:45.239 are seven aspects of society that hardline Christianity wants to overtake. Family, religion, 526 00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:51.119 education, media, entertainment, business, and government. If you conquer 527 00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:55.920 all seven of those mandates, you have conquered the culture. And that is 528 00:48:55.960 --> 00:49:00.840 what is being invoked at the level of the Alabama Supreme Court. So I'm 529 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:06.840 going to quickly try to squeeze in two more A zero one? Is it? 530 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:12.159 Mark? What do you have? I'm an AI optimist, but I 531 00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:19.679 naively hold the idea that the solution to evil AI is more AI. However, 532 00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:28.800 this new creature AI is watching us, and the training data that it's 533 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:35.119 getting is not necessarily showing humanity in the most flattering way. So I mean 534 00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:38.199 there's a lot of ways that AI could be good, but there are so 535 00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:43.559 many ways that it could go bad. So I've kind of come to the 536 00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:51.159 conclusion that it may start looking at the rotten things we do and come to 537 00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:55.400 a conclusion that that's how we prefer to be treated. So are we talking 538 00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:00.400 sky in that here? Oh? I think it's far worse in that. 539 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:06.519 You know, some cultures they have demons in their mythology called thought form, 540 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:12.119 where literally the demon itself is a is an incantate, a result of an 541 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:17.880 incantation or the imagination of the sorcerer or the whoever. And I think that's 542 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:22.679 kind of what we're making. This is an interesting angle. So let's say 543 00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:30.320 that artificial intelligence becomes sentient. It is conscious, It is a conscious mind, 544 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:37.400 and it sees the darkness that infects the human race and the horrible things 545 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:43.880 we do to each other, right, the inhumanity of humanity, And even 546 00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:46.599 if it thinks it's acting in a benevolent way, it's saying, oh, 547 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:52.800 they must really like that, and then it begins to build societal models based 548 00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:59.840 on darkness, pain, and cruelty. You've cut My hypothesis is exactly spot 549 00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:02.679 on. That's freaking scary. Uh oh, they will like, oh, 550 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:08.920 how many people murder each other? They must love murder? Well AAI AI. 551 00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:14.920 I mean there are lots of different flavors of AI, but generally speaking, 552 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:22.079 AI is optimized for certain objectives. And if it comes to the conclusion 553 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:24.199 and see, we're we're not telling you we're not. Yeah, we have 554 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:30.679 some guardrails that we put up, but more and more as cognitive powers become 555 00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:36.599 super intelligent, which is soon, frighteningly soon, it's going to come up 556 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:42.519 with its own moral imperative that human beings scarcely have the capacity to under even 557 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:47.559 begin to understand, even conceptually, let alone practically. Well, let me 558 00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:52.559 ask you this. The vast majority of us do not act in anti social 559 00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:59.719 ways. We are pro social creatures. So I believe there is more kindness, 560 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:05.800 there is more benevolence, there's more charity, there's more good, And 561 00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:13.760 so wouldn't an artificial consciousness see that? And then way it's actions based on 562 00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:17.679 how much good and how much evil there is in our society. Well, 563 00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:22.360 I think the word if is doing a whole lot of heavy lifting. I 564 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:24.599 can't help when I think about this scenario. I can't help to think about 565 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:30.320 the old Santa Claus is coming to town lyrics. It sees you when you're 566 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:35.239 sleeping, it sees you when you're awake. It knows if you've been bad 567 00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:39.320 or good, so be good for goodness sake. And I think that's important 568 00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:45.480 to remember because it is watching it and being good and benevolent to one another 569 00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:50.360 might not just be a good thing to do in and of itself, but 570 00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:55.039 it might be a survival strategy for us as humans. Interesting I've spoke to 571 00:52:55.199 --> 00:53:01.159 Professor Nita Farahani, who is an expert in AI and is a big proponent 572 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:06.360 of cognitive liberty. As more and more in the neuralink age, you know, 573 00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:10.639 people are talking about how what's happening under the skull can be scanned and 574 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.079 read at least to a degree. What if AI could see our dark sides, 575 00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:22.320 the stuff we don't show everybody and somehow measure that and think, Oh, 576 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:24.800 they enjoy that. They got a you know, they got an endorphin 577 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:31.679 rush from Seth fantasizing about throwing his evil boss through the window. Maybe will 578 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:36.800 weigh society in that way? Oh yeah, yeah, that's horrifying. Mark, 579 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:38.199 thanks for that. Think, Hey, I'm going to have a question 580 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:42.960 quickly. And since you're an AI guy, I don't want to sound like 581 00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:45.800 the guy resistant to new technologies. I don't want to be the person who's 582 00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:50.119 like, wow, these kids today, you know and back when I was. 583 00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:52.960 I know, you're just a lud eyed as the next genera. I 584 00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.519 know someone call me a lud eye the other day, and I'm like, 585 00:53:55.559 --> 00:54:00.719 no, no, no. I think raising legitimate concerns about new technicies that 586 00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:05.360 may start thinking for themselves. And more than that, I'm a little bit 587 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:12.519 nervous about the replacing of human creators. I love the idea of technology lightening 588 00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:17.960 the service load of humanity, a lot of the menial load, making our 589 00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:23.719 lives easier and less laborious in that way. I like the idea of tools 590 00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:30.719 for creation human creation. What's starting to bother me is this idea that people 591 00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:37.840 now who are painters and who are animators, and they make art and music 592 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:44.280 and all these things, they are now in competition with machines or software that 593 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:49.960 can do it for nothing, sometimes meaning that they've lost their livelihood or in 594 00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:53.320 some ways might be replaced by the machines. I don't think that's hyperbole, 595 00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.760 and it kind of grieves me. I'm working on a project right now, 596 00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:01.599 Mark, I'm trying to do a visual life version of the story of us, 597 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:06.840 the story of you, And so I'm using images of the universe. 598 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:09.639 And there were supernova's and the Big Bang and planet Earth and whatnot. And 599 00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:14.159 for half a second I thought, Wow, I could use AI images for 600 00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:16.480 this, and I could probably do it pretty cheaply. And then I thought 601 00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:22.880 about all of the people who create these animations and shoot these videos of the 602 00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:27.599 night sky and the faces and the breeze and the close ups of the eyes. 603 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:30.320 You know, they lit the scene and frame the camera and they put 604 00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:35.199 it together. And I think I'm replacing them. What does that do to 605 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:38.079 their lives? What statement am I making about humanity? If I rest so 606 00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:44.199 much on the machines for the creative part of expression. That grieves me. 607 00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:46.639 Do you have an opinion? Mark? Am I wrong there? I do 608 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:51.559 both academic and real. I'm a first time novelist, and I will not 609 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:55.599 plug my own book. But I realized during the editing process and when I 610 00:55:55.639 --> 00:56:00.360 was having it converted to an audiobook, that I like would be one of 611 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:08.400 the last human authors ever, which is little consolation to the reality that authors 612 00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:16.840 and musicians and entertainers and surgeons and CPAs and the list goes on and on 613 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:22.159 are being replaced by a machine. And that you're right, It isn't hyperbole. 614 00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:27.480 It's absolutely real, and it's happening in front of our very eyes, 615 00:56:27.519 --> 00:56:31.880 and it's happening across all domains, all of it. Mark, When I 616 00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:36.639 was in a video as a video producer, and back then, we would 617 00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:40.119 spend you know, ten grand for an HD video camera. Oh, it's 618 00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:44.440 a big deal. You know, it shoots ten adp wow, And it 619 00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.599 was a lot of money. And now you can shoot four K or higher 620 00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:52.079 on a cell phone and everybody's got one. So the industry changed and we 621 00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:55.599 saw a lot of video houses closed and everybody had to adapt. I think 622 00:56:55.679 --> 00:57:00.079 that's different. You know, technology evolves, we as a society have to 623 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:07.079 evolve with it. I think the creation of thinking machines that might replace the 624 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:12.159 creator, the human creator, I think that's a different conversation. That doesn't 625 00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:15.880 make us lattites, does it, Mark, No, Seth. This creature 626 00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:23.880 is trespassing on what has normally been a very selfish realm of humanity. Our 627 00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:31.119 ability to think, our ability to create, is there anything more. You 628 00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:36.000 know, I'm really kind of a loss for words because I can't think of 629 00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:39.880 an allegory that's worse than the reality. I don't know. There are some 630 00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:43.199 I've seen who are like, well, that's going to happen anyway, so 631 00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:45.000 let's find a way to go with it. What's that line, I'd rather 632 00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:50.719 be a pet than cattle. You know, if it's going to take over, 633 00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:52.320 at least I'm going to be involved in the process some way. But 634 00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:55.400 I feel like, at some point, don't we as a society, as 635 00:57:55.400 --> 00:58:00.280 a species, consciously say we're going to partition this out. As flawed as 636 00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:04.719 it is and sometimes as slow and imperfect as it is, but this is 637 00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:08.360 a human thing where humans do this and the machines will do that. I 638 00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:12.199 don't think it's ever going to happen, but I am watching closely. And 639 00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:15.400 you know, if AI can ever read the human dark side and interprets that 640 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:21.800 dark side in the wrong way, then maybe it is Skynet or worse. 641 00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:24.320 I don't know. Build a bunker. Let's build a bunker. Mark, 642 00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:28.880 Yeah, yeah, all right, thank you, sir. I appreciate your 643 00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.760 man hanging there. We may have to do a whole broadcast on AI. 644 00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:36.840 I think everybody. Most people have an opinion, and they're polarized opinions. 645 00:58:36.920 --> 00:58:38.840 I've talked to some people who were like, you know, it is what 646 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:44.760 it is. You're just resisting change. Just sound like your parents. And 647 00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:50.440 there are other people who are saying this is foreign territory. The technology is 648 00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:55.920 developing faster than our development of the understanding of the consequences. We got to 649 00:58:55.960 --> 00:59:00.320 slow down. I think that's the message everybody, to slow down. Because 650 00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:04.000 we can do it, doesn't mean we should because it becomes exponential. Maybe 651 00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:07.679 that's a whole show. Would you welcome a show like that? Would you 652 00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:12.320 want to have those discussions and depth for zero four? You've been so patient, 653 00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:15.119 Thanks for waiting. What's your name for Darth? We're talking about the 654 00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:17.719 dark side. What do you have for us? Okay? Well, I 655 00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:23.360 was thinking about the Crench gets route of star Ture where Kirk the transport being 656 00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:30.039 split him in two and one was the very kind, u civil but weak 657 00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:35.320 indecistient. He's very indecisive Kirk, and the other was strong and there is 658 00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:38.679 such a work, very animalstic and spock headswich thing to him that's inside of 659 00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:44.320 you. It's part of what makes you such a magnificent starship captain. Without 660 00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:47.679 that, you are not Kirk. So it is in us. It's what 661 00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:52.960 Mark Twain said that most of us are like the shining bright moon, you 662 00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:57.039 know, in the darkest night. But each of us has a dark side 663 00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:00.440 that you should ever suit. And my uncle said that coming back from war, 664 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.679 and he learned that you could cradle a child and embrace a woman and 665 01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:10.039 also kill a man to defend it. So it's that part is in us. 666 01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:15.119 It's part of the reason why the book jack O and Hyde was written 667 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:20.320 because he was fascinated how each human has both of those in us. It's 668 01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:24.440 in us, you know, and one, as Kirk discovered, one controls 669 01:00:24.519 --> 01:00:29.639 the other. But without that, we're not who we think we are. 670 01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:32.960 We're something all together different. It's in you. It's part of what makes 671 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:38.880 you such a magnificent starship captain. But that controls that side of you. 672 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:44.159 The nice Kirk was indecisive, he was weak, he couldn't lead, and 673 01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:45.880 he said, no, we've got we've got to find a way to put 674 01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:51.239 you back together again so that you can be the Kirk that is this magnificent 675 01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:57.920 commander. I will say that Evil Spock was a badass. Evil Spock with 676 01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.440 the goat wasn't He was just a badass. He was a bad He was 677 01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:06.760 a badass, badass. Bernard, you're awesome. Thanks for capping the show 678 01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:08.960 and hang in there. Okay, thank you, sir. All right, 679 01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:12.639 So I want to I want to tell you the other day. I'll look, 680 01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:15.239 you got the picture, but I saw a man at the gas pump 681 01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:20.760 a few days ago and he could be your brother. I mean, I 682 01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:22.559 said, you need you need to behave yourself because you have a doctor. 683 01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:28.679 There's somebody out there that looks you want to mistake I don't. I don't 684 01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:34.039 want him to be mistaken for you. You behave yourself. All right, 685 01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:39.119 Thanks, I'll send the picture, all right. Appreciate you. Brother. 686 01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:45.679 That's Garry. Is somebody out there, some poor sap looks like me. 687 01:01:46.119 --> 01:01:51.679 I am so very sorry. I don't think my parents have anything to tell 688 01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:57.880 me. Speaking of Dexter, I fantasized about consequences for the people who wrote 689 01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:02.840 season eight and the finale of Dexter, because I think there might have to 690 01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:08.000 be consequences. I just had to throw that out there. As we finish 691 01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:15.719 our conversation today about the dark Side. I appreciate you listening, thanks for 692 01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:19.360 putting up with your host. I'll see you back here next time. Follow 693 01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:24.000 the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of podcasts and videos, 694 01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:29.199 products like mugs and t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to 695 01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:34.440 atheist pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. 696 01:02:34.840 --> 01:02:39.840 Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.