WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:15.359 Good evening and welcome to the Hollywood Babylonians. Oh hello, hello friends. 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:21.199 This is your happy Hollywood History host mister Ben Burke here with another episode of 3 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:27.000 the Hollywood Babylonians, your Favorite Classic Film in Hollywood History podcast, in which 4 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:30.879 we talk about the greatest classic films of old Hollywood and the history behind them. 5 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:36.359 And today we are talking about our seventh film on the Hollywood Babylonian seven. 6 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:39.280 Can you believe it? We're really getting up there, And that is 7 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:45.880 producer Arthur Fried's and Vincent Minelli's nineteen forty four Technicolor musical Family Valentine Meet me 8 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:50.479 in Saint Louis, starring Judy Garland, Mary Astor, Lucille Brimmer, Joan 9 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:55.000 Carrol Marcot, O, Brian Leon, Ames, Harry Davenport, Marjorie Main 10 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:58.240 and on, oh and Tom Drake the Boy next Door, and on and 11 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:02.799 on and on. And today I have joining me that wonderful actress, that 12 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.159 wonderful songstress of the Broadway stage, off Broadway stage all over, and I 13 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:11.400 think a lover of Judy as well. And that is my great friend Ruby 14 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.400 Racos. Hello, Ruby, Hi, Ben, Thank you for inviting me. 15 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:19.680 Oh of course I am so excited and so honored to have you on. 16 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:26.319 How have you been lately? I've been good. Not much going on 17 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.040 in the theater world for me, but you know, I'm still here, 18 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:34.079 I'm still kicking. Well that's okay. How much you're performing is not based 19 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:36.799 on yourself worth. You're a wonderful human being no matter what you do. 20 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:41.640 So I'm so glad that we finally got to record this episode because I feel 21 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.480 like I messaged you over a year ago and was like, let's do an 22 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.040 episode on meet me in Saint Louis, and then life got in the way. 23 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:51.000 And then a year later and I messaged you, and then it was 24 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.000 several weeks of I got sick, and then you had something, and finally 25 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.439 we're getting together and we're doing this, so I hope it's I hope this 26 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.760 goes well. I'm making sure that it's recording so we don't have to do 27 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.239 it again. But anyway, I would love for you too. I've been 28 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:08.919 talking a lot, so I would love for you to tell your the our 29 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:15.080 audience kind of your your background and how that led into your involvement with Judy 30 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:21.439 and what you've done that has brilliantly depicted Miss Judy Garland. Yeah, so 31 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:29.120 I have played Judy Garland in a new musical about her childhood called Chasing Rainbows 32 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:36.639 the Road to Oz for almost nine years maybe now, since I was in 33 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:40.840 high school. And so this it's a part of her life that's not widely 34 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:46.639 explored or discussed since it's not as sensationalized as other parts of her life. 35 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:53.000 But it starts with her at six years old, you know, moving to 36 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:59.599 Antelope Valley in California and going to Hollywood, and then you know, jumps 37 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:05.319 to her twelve years old performing with her sisters as the Gum Sisters on the 38 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:10.800 Vaudeville circuit and finally landing a contract at MGM, and eventually ends with The 39 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:15.039 Wizard of Oz with the filming of the Wizard of Oz. So it's only 40 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:17.439 up through like age sixteen, and I think it's a part of her life 41 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:24.840 that is really interesting. And I've spent most of my research on Judy focused 42 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.280 on that earlier part in her life. So this is actually I'm not as 43 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:35.639 familiar with Meme and Saint Louis or her life at that time as I would 44 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.840 be you know, other movies, but it's still I mean, Judy did 45 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:43.840 say it was one of her favorite films, so I'm happy to talk about 46 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:47.680 it. Oh yeah, and yes, I mean anything that involves Judy Garland. 47 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:52.120 I think she had really a life like no other. But she had 48 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.159 a life like no other. So whether you know it's little Judy when she 49 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:00.319 first started performing, or whether it's Judy at twenty one, you know, 50 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:04.680 she basically by the time she left MGM, she had lived seventy five years 51 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:09.960 compared to a lot of us for what she had done. I was just 52 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.000 listening to the commentary on the blu ray that I have of Meet Me in 53 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:17.759 Saint Louis done by the fabulous mister John Frickey, which I know, you 54 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.879 know, I have not had that pleasure, so hopefully one day I will 55 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:25.879 have the pleasure. But I don't know if there's anybody I've ever heard or 56 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:30.879 read about, or any anybody that loves Judy like John Fricky does, and 57 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.399 he talks about her with such passion, And what I appreciate about him is 58 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.399 that he doesn't over sensationalize her life, which I feel like so many people 59 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.600 do, because she has such an interesting backstory. Yeah, John John is 60 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:50.160 actually he's our sort of resident Judy historian and consultant on Chasing Rainbows and a 61 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:56.759 friend of mine. I love him very dearly. I've been going through some 62 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.519 of his books that I have to do research for this episode, so I 63 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:06.360 definitely will be will probably be quoting some stuff that he wrote. He is, 64 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:12.680 he is, he is truly. His thing about Judy is that he's 65 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:17.759 he's very protective of her and he cares very deeply about her as a person, 66 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:24.319 and to sort of boil her down just to the tragedy or the like, 67 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.800 you know, the negative things that happened in her life is really just 68 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:33.199 kind of missing the whole point. So he's he's really wonderful. Yes, 69 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.160 he is. Well, yeah, he's awesome. Hopefully one day I'll get 70 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:40.519 to meet him. But he was on a podcast recently called The Extras, 71 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.720 and he was talking about Judy at one hundredth. Also, this is her 72 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.560 one hundredth birthday this year. It was back in June, so yes, 73 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:51.680 and but he was talking, well, he just talked about her, Like 74 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:56.560 I was like, there's probably her husband's probably didn't even love her as much 75 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.680 as he did, you know, and more than likely because the majority of 76 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:03.800 their her husbands were homosexual. But he's seen her perform live too, which 77 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:10.120 is he did. Yeah, Okay, he saw her twice, I believe. 78 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:13.519 Okay, do you know, I guess that was in the sixties more 79 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:17.319 than likely. Maybe in the yeah, yeah, but yes, and yeah, 80 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.079 it's it's amazing. After her film career, she went on to a 81 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:27.480 very fab or just an amazing, prestigious career on the stage as a concert 82 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.600 performer. And that's where she made all she made and lost all of her 83 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:33.160 money and her later years as well. But I was going to say, 84 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:39.800 talking about like Judy, this is her favorite movie. She she loved the 85 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:43.920 like the ending sequences of the film, and this entire film is built upon 86 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.759 sequences and vignettes in Saint Louis when it's snowing and the families together at Christmas 87 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:53.040 time, because that reminded her of her childhood in Minnesota before her mother picked 88 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:57.879 her up and threw her into California and being with her father, And she 89 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:00.480 loved that because it reminded her of the close as a family and feeling good 90 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.800 and feeling warm, and you know, she never had that after she left. 91 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:08.759 I don't think but that she often referred to that as the happiest time 92 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:12.600 in her life. So that's one reason why she said Esther Smith was her 93 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:15.319 favorite role. So I wanted to ask you, Oh, I had a 94 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.079 question on the top on the tip of my tongue, but I can't remember 95 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:26.000 about something about John Fricky, But so you talked about Oh, I was 96 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:29.439 going to ask Chasing Rainbows. So I wasn't sure because I knew that was 97 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.759 a big deal at paper Mill Playhouse right before the pandemic, and I was 98 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:36.399 going to get tickets, but I couldn't because I mean, we were introduced 99 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:41.199 by a wonderful, wonderful person named Lacy Franklin, and she was like, 100 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:43.319 oh, you can get tickets at the last minute, It'll be fine. 101 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:45.920 And then I tried to get tickets and they were like five hundred dollars and 102 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:47.519 three left, and I was like, what happened? It's because you're so 103 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:51.480 talented and the show was so amazing. So is it still like, oh, 104 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.439 is it still going on or are there are people behind it that are 105 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.639 still trying to I guess plug it. Yes, one hundred percent. The 106 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.920 panda did not kill us, That's that's for sure. There's a lot of 107 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:09.040 really fun and exciting stuff coming up. You know, I can't talk about 108 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:13.920 it, but you know, just keep keep an ear out, you know, 109 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.160 Yes, it's still here. It's still kicking, awesome, amazing, 110 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.879 that's so exciting. Yeah, and you had a spectacular cast in that as 111 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.519 well. And I know a lot of us are very excited that it might 112 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.360 one day go to the Broadway. But I guess we'll just have to wait 113 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.799 and see, and that you'll be there to lead the way. But anyway, 114 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:35.600 I wanted to now segue into the film that we're actually talking about, 115 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.320 which is Meet Me in Saint Louis. And do you remember, like the 116 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:45.480 first time, what your thoughts are, just you know, general thoughts on 117 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.080 this movie and Judy, I've only seen this movie a few times. The 118 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:54.559 first time I remember seeing it was only a few years ago. Yeah, 119 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:56.720 I think it was Christmas. I think I decided to watch it because, 120 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:58.960 I mean, for some reason, you know, everyone always says it's a 121 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:01.600 Christmas movie, and so I was like, okay, i'll watch it. 122 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.679 And it was on Christmas and I'm watching the movie and I'm like, there's 123 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.799 about I don't know, thirty twenty thirty minutes of it that's Christmas, Like 124 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.240 it's I was like, oh, okay, it's not a Christmas movie. 125 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.240 It just has like one of the best Christmas songs of all time in it, 126 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:26.000 and so that the whole Halloween sequence is absolutely insane. Yeah, I 127 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.559 don't I don't know what my first impression of it was, mostly that I 128 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.240 was surprised that it wasn't a Christmas movie. Probably yeah, because I know, 129 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:39.840 I know a lot of people who it's like their favorite Judy movie, 130 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.440 whereas MY favorites are usually her early stuff, where I, you know, 131 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:50.200 I just mostly don't think she's on you know, on screen enough in the 132 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.000 earlier stuff. Basically. Yeah, And the music from some of the older 133 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.240 films are in the show Chasing Rainbows, and I, you know, sing 134 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:05.919 them myself. Hearing them is always a joy. But I didn't realize how 135 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.879 many there's not that many new songs in this show. I mean, we've 136 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.080 got me, We've got like the Boy next Door in the trolley song, 137 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:22.480 and I think have yourself a merry little Christmas. And I think that's it 138 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.600 for original music that was written for the show. Yeah. Oh, and 139 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:33.559 skip to My lou Apparently Ralph it says it's Ralph Blaine. Also did the 140 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.519 music and lyrics to skip to My lou And then there's a deleted song that 141 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:43.679 I have not found. It's called Boys and Girls Like You and Me and 142 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:46.039 she did go on to perform it in some places, so it's got to 143 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:52.320 be around somewhere. Yes one. Yeah. Boys and Girls Like You and 144 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:58.039 Me Were was written by Rogers and Hammerstein for Oklahoma the Broadway Show in nineteen 145 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:03.440 forty three. And there's a lot of listening to the commentary by John Fricky 146 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.919 because he just knows everything about Judy. This movie had so many deleted scenes, 147 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.720 and I think the original runtime was over two hours, and Boys and 148 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.639 Girls Like You and Me was one of the things that got dropped because Minnelli 149 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.360 felt that, you know, this film was one of the very first to 150 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:24.000 kind of stray away from the movie musical formula in the fact that it psychologically 151 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.600 and emotionally furthered the plot and what the characters were feeling, and it gave 152 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.960 you new information about how this plot develops. And he just felt like Boys 153 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.080 and Girls Like You and Me was Minelli did was commentary on exactly what was 154 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.440 going on. He was like, we don't need this because this is you 155 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:46.399 know over this is overstating a hat on a hat exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 156 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.840 Well, well, one thing that Judy was very surprised by working with 157 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.919 Manelli because this is the first time she's really she's worked with him as a 158 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:03.279 director. And she had said that the first that first scene with her sister, 159 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.480 right lou Sail Brimmer with Yeah, with Lucille Brahmer, he made her 160 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:15.799 do it eleven times, which up until that point she's kind of she was 161 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.600 kind of known as like a one take wonder pretty much. She you know, 162 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.840 shows up, does it perfect the first time and goes home. H 163 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:28.919 So she's very surprised and was just thought she had completely lost her talent and 164 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:33.960 her touch because she was like, how like he maybe do it over and 165 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.960 over again, like was I really that terrible? And it turned out he 166 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:45.440 really just wanted to get her out of herself and into into the character of 167 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.559 esther, who you know, significantly younger than her and you know, it's 168 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:54.000 nineteen oh three, she's you know, seventeen years old, so he was 169 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:56.759 just trying to get her, you know, more to be more natural, 170 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.799 right, And once she sort of caught on to the way that Manelli works 171 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:07.039 and what he wanted from her. They had a a great working relationship and 172 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:13.039 then obviously later marriage. Yes, yes, and that that's awesome. I've 173 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.279 heard about Like the very first scene that Judy shot with Manelli. She had 174 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.879 been working with Charles Walters for several weeks and he's the one that did really 175 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.159 like the skip to Myleu sequence, trolley song sequence, and Chuck Walters was 176 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.159 a choreographer MGM, a choreographer and director at MGM who also directed Easter Parade 177 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.360 Funny Enough, another film with Judy. But the very first day that she's 178 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.279 shot with Manelli, she I know that everybody was a little bit stand offish 179 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.600 because Manelli had only directed two films at that point, which where I DoD 180 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.159 It in Cabin and This Guy, and both were successful for the studio. 181 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.919 But they felt that he was too green and Judy had always played as I 182 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.360 know, you know, she was. Mayor called her his uh her, 183 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.440 his little hunchback, you know, he had she had always been this this 184 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:03.879 smart girl that wasn't pretty enough. You know. Mickey Rooney really didn't realize 185 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:05.919 that he was in love with her until the very last real because apparently she 186 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.679 wasn't beautiful enough. She was the next door neighbor who was who had a 187 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.799 very wry sense of humor. You know, she kind of came out with 188 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.080 Zinger. She had a great sense of humor, which I don't think many 189 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.519 people realize. But up until Esther Smith, she had never played like the 190 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:26.720 Lana Turner type on Janu at MGM, and I know that she really didn't 191 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.879 want to play this role, and so she was saying all the lines with 192 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.399 kind of a wink and a nod, particularly because you know, she thought 193 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.759 the script was a little bit silly. Everybody did, and she also it 194 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.240 was just Judy's sense of humor. It was Judy Garland being Judy Garland, 195 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.320 and it took her. I know. They took several takes in the morning 196 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:50.279 and then Minelly Broke called for lunch, and then at lunch, Arthur Freed 197 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.720 came to see him and said, well, I've just talked to Judy and 198 00:14:54.279 --> 00:15:00.159 she thinks she's lost her talent. She's absolutely heartbroken, which made Manelli kind 199 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:01.000 of distraught, and he was like, don't worry. I told her, 200 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.879 you know exactly what you're doing. So they came back, and you know 201 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:09.600 it, it was a time before he completely got her to break down into 202 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.960 that character, which I think is a really beautiful character because like, like 203 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.759 you know, we talked about, she had never played the entreneur before, 204 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:22.799 and she this kind of beautiful type of leading lady she had never done. 205 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.879 And he was the one that first photographed her, you know, framed her 206 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:31.039 in beautiful composition, in beautiful technicolor. And then on top of that, 207 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.240 Dottie Pontadell, do you know who she is? Her makeup woman. So 208 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:43.440 before Dottie Pontadell, I believe Judy was just her makeup was done by the 209 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:48.279 head of Metro's makeup department, which was Bill Tuttle or William Tuttle and William 210 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.080 and she never was made to feel beautiful by William Tuttle and Minnelli. Somebody 211 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.080 brought in Dorothy Pontadell, who had done makeup for a lot of people at 212 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.159 this point. But Judy came in with all of these caps for her teeth 213 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:04.320 and disks that she would insert into her nose to make her nose look different, 214 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.720 and you know all of these things. Was like, you need to 215 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.600 do this to make sure I look like this on screen, And Dottie Pontadell 216 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.159 said, no, no, you're a very beautiful girl. We don't need 217 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.720 to do much. So she just raised her eyebrow, made her bottom lip 218 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.080 very full, and then put white eyelander under her eyes and put a very 219 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.320 very thin layer of bass on and she said, and she was Judy, 220 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:27.759 and she was beautiful, and she plucked her hairlined a little bit, but 221 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.000 that's besides the point. So but it was. I think it was one 222 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:34.759 of the very first times. And that's one of the reasons that I think 223 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.440 Garland fell in love with Minelli the way she did, because she had kind 224 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.279 of a stand off. She didn't like exactly working with him, because he 225 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:47.720 was a perfectionist. Most people that see this movie are like, it is 226 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:52.399 just technicolor fluff. There's not much to it. Technically. It's an amazing, 227 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.639 amazing film for the time, because so many of the shots are these 228 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.840 great, big, swooping long shots throughout the house, throughout a two story 229 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.400 structure that they built, and they built an entire streak for this movie. 230 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:08.319 What he does with lighting, Manelli and the cinematographer, what they do with 231 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:14.920 lighting, Oh no, I've lost my thought again. But going into like 232 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:22.480 Judy looking beautiful, it being technologically more advanced than other films there. Yeah, 233 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.519 there is a lot to it. And then I mean, we could 234 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:29.240 talk about so many people say there's absolutely no plot to this film, which 235 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.599 I think for nineteen for war torn America in nineteen forty four, there is 236 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.839 definitely a plot to the film. Yeah, which was you know, it 237 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.799 came out at the absolute perfect time in November of nineteen forty four, because 238 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.440 people were just exhausted by the war. They wanted it to be over and 239 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.880 to show a film. I mean, this is a type of film that 240 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:52.160 you know, would show up these type of plots on television in the fifties 241 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.400 and sixties, but at this time people didn't have television. These were beautiful 242 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:02.400 family sequences that were constructed very one fully by Manelli and by everyone involved. 243 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:08.519 And it touched America's hearts, I guess you could say, in a different 244 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.599 way than it ever had before. And the fact that it broke away from 245 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:18.039 the American musical film formula, you know, and it gave people a nuisance 246 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:22.000 of what a musical could be was one of the reasons that it was. 247 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.720 I believe it was the most successful film musical that MGM had ever seen. 248 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.000 Also, well, and it might have been the most successful film that MGM 249 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.960 ever saw outside of be Gone with the Wind. But what I was going 250 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:40.680 to say about Judy and Minelli them Judy seeing herself in the rushes and being 251 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:45.799 like, oh, you actually actually shot me very beautifully, was that she 252 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:48.000 did not like working with Manelli because he was a perfectionist. She was known 253 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.279 as a one take wonder and he would have them like the dinner sequence at 254 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.480 the very beginning of the film was an exhausting sequence because he had to you 255 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.839 know, there were so many things on the table, there were so many 256 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:03.240 things around the room. They had to constantly be reset and reset and reset. 257 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.480 And Margaret O'Brien at five or six years old, kept constantly playing pranks 258 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.640 on the prop master and messing everything up, and so they had to go 259 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.400 back and retake and retake and retake, and Minnelly kept calling rehearsals for scenes 260 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:19.559 like that or like scenes like it. Took a lot of rehearsal with the 261 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:23.240 camera, with the dancers, with everybody to get that all put together, 262 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:27.599 and Judy did not exactly like that. He had to keep because Judy would 263 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.799 do like one rehearsal then run off the stage jump in her car, and 264 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.279 he said he had constantly have to call the policeman at the gate to intercept 265 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.319 Judy and be like, no, no, we're not finished yet. But 266 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:41.839 she didn't exactly fall in love with him until she saw the finished product, 267 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:47.079 and then she trusted him as a human being and as a director. And 268 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.079 then of course he went on to direct her in the Clock, which is 269 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:55.119 one of her best I think probably her best performance as an actress at MGM 270 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.720 is in the Clock, and you know, from there on its history. 271 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:02.960 Yeah, I mean I could understand why she yeah, because since she was 272 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:11.400 the one take wonder. She was also notorious her being late. There's one 273 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.440 story John Ferky writes about where they were waiting for her to record. I 274 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:22.839 think it was The Boy next Door or something, and they waited for her 275 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.440 for five hours and she shows up with her two little dogs five hours late, 276 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.599 and they're like, oh, do you want to run through it once? 277 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.359 She's like no, I'm good, yeah, and she does like one 278 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.839 take and then it's like you got it and like leaves and it's and it 279 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.839 was perfect, you know, like she didn't need she didn't need the constant 280 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.599 again and again and again all that time. Yeah, she was also there 281 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.839 was a lot of sicknesses and absences during the filming of the movie. I 282 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.680 mean she herself was out for like a total of three weeks or so, 283 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.279 and Margaret O'Brien was pulled out of the film at one point by her mother 284 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:07.559 because she needed rest, right and Judy had actually, you know, saw 285 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.119 a lot of herself in Margaret O'Brien, you know, because she was working 286 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:17.160 when she was five too, you know, in vaudeville, and so she 287 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:19.720 I think there's a quote about, you know, how that little girl, 288 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.279 you know, she doesn't she doesn't have a life, you know, like 289 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.480 she doesn't get to have a childhood. I think I heard I think still 290 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:32.480 Brimmer say that at one point that Jady was very close to Margaret, and 291 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.440 you know, they were all sitting around on set one day and she told 292 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.599 Lucille Brimmer and the other dancers, you know, she she it's very sad 293 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:42.799 because she doesn't have a life. She's not a normal little girl. Yeah. 294 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.720 Yeah, but yes, and you were also talking about, oh what 295 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:53.839 what what were you just talking about? You're talking about Margaret And yeah, 296 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.319 I was getting pulled out by her mother yes, her being pulled out. 297 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:02.119 So that's a that's an interesting story. Because Okay, there's a book called 298 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.200 Get Happy, The Life of Judy Garland by Gerald Clark. Have you read 299 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:10.119 Get Happy? I believe that is the one of the I don't think that's 300 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:11.119 the one I read all the way through. I think that's the one I 301 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:15.440 like stopped after the Wizard of was well, there's a few biographies where I 302 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.759 just stop at the Wizard of Oz and like, don't read the rest of 303 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.400 it. I don't. Well, I don't blame you, first of all, 304 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.240 because I feel like Gerald Clark kind of has well. It's a very 305 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.599 informative and I feel at times well educated book, but it does sit a 306 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:38.119 lot in over sensationalized Judy, and it focuses a lot on her romantic relationships 307 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.119 and her sexual habits, which I'm like, why do we need to know 308 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:48.200 all of this information? But yeah, he tells the story of Margaret O'Brien. 309 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:51.720 Okay, so I've I heard a commentary by Margaret O'Brien and I read 310 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:57.000 the book. Margaret O'Brien said that halfway through the shooting, Margaret's mother got 311 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:00.119 the schedule for the rest of the film, and she stormed up to Louis 312 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.799 V. Mayor's office. She was like, this is ridiculous. You cannot 313 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.240 overwork my daughter like this, and he said, you'll do exactly what you're 314 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.279 told. So she pulled her out of the film and they went to I 315 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.839 think they went to South America for a little while to rest, but ended 316 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:18.880 up going to New York where Low's Incorporated, who owned MGM, was located, 317 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:23.359 and she went to Nicholas Shank I believe was his name, who was 318 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.640 the head of Lowe's Incorporated, and said, if you want to keep working 319 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.079 with my daughter like this, you are going to pay us more money. 320 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.519 So she got the pay raise and then they got start production back on. 321 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.119 But you were also talking about the illnesses well, and for one Judy, 322 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.079 I mean, she never needed, honestly, more than one take, and 323 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.599 that's the person she was. I feel like when she finally got into the 324 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.000 role of esther, it was it just came naturally, like everything else did 325 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.720 for her. But I know, you know, there was a time I've 326 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:57.720 read several places where she just completely lost her ability to sleep. And when 327 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.599 you're a movie star and you're required to be on the set at five am 328 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.559 in the morning, bright eyed, bushy tailed. You know that's very stressful 329 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.880 if you look absolutely exhausted, and you know she was on uppers and downers, 330 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.519 and you take too many uppers and downers and you lose your ability to 331 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.960 sleep. And so I know that's one reason why she was late. And 332 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.440 she had to call the ad so lots of times and say, will not 333 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:23.559 be in today because I cannot sleep, And she called Arthur Freed several times. 334 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:27.880 But I know there was a sinus infection that ran rampant through meet me 335 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:33.200 in Saint Louis and added lots of days onto the shooting schedule. But Mary 336 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.960 asked her who played the mother. She eventually got inn ammonia and was in 337 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:40.720 the hospital for two weeks, and then Joan Carroll, who played Agnes, 338 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.359 got an emergency appendectomy, so she was out for several weeks. Harry Davenport, 339 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.400 I can't remember what happened to him, but he was just he was 340 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:52.480 just old, you know, and old people in the nineteen forties didn't live 341 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:56.880 for very long. I don't think anybody lived very long. But I know 342 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.240 he was constantly out due to some different illness. But yes, it was 343 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.839 I would think for the for the type of movie that they were shooting, 344 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:10.000 that that had to be a very very stressful set for Manelli to be like, 345 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.680 Okay, I set this goal this high and we have to come in 346 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.640 and do this every day. But everybody's getting sick. I'm having you know, 347 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.759 Judy doesn't exactly trust me. And yeah, talking about Judy, this 348 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:25.359 book by Gerald Clark, who well talked about her relationship with Tom Drake. 349 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.480 And okay, did you know that Tom or the boy next door was supposed 350 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:33.279 to first be played by Robert Walker, who started opposite her in The Clock, 351 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.319 which I think would have been wonderful. That would have been a different 352 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:40.680 kind of boy next door. It would have been very bad. That would 353 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:45.920 have been even added even more chaos to the set because he was a raging 354 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.160 alcoholic. Well, yes, and at that time, at that time, 355 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:55.680 okay, so you know, Robert Walker was boyfriend girlfriend. His girlfriend was 356 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:59.440 Jennifer Jones, who was under contract, who was a big movie star under 357 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.160 contract to David O's Selznick. And he found out around this time Robert Walker 358 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:10.480 did that. Jennifer Jones and Robert Jennifer Jones and David O Selznick were having 359 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:15.119 an affair, and so that's one reason that perpetuated Robert Walker's alcoholism when he 360 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.359 found out that Jennifer Jones was having an affair with David o' selznick. Yeah, 361 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:23.160 it would have been absolutely crazy. Another choice Robert Walker didn't work out, 362 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:30.359 and then they went to Van Johnson and Van I don't know why he 363 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.079 wasn't okay. I mean, he would have been the great boy next door 364 00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:37.440 too. It almost seems like for what you need in the Boy next Door, 365 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.119 Van Johnson would have been a little bit too much. Have you seen 366 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.559 anything with Van Johnson before? No, I haven't, okay. He was 367 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:48.759 in like some of her later films, like in the Gods Summertime Till the 368 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.720 Clouds Roll By. I think he only made two films, two or three 369 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:56.839 films with her. But then they finally got to Tom Drake, who was 370 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:00.599 brand new to the studio, and so was Lucille. Lucia Brimmer was there 371 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:06.079 because she was Arthur Freed's protege end quotes. I've heard many places that she 372 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:11.400 and Arthur Freed were hooking up on many, many different levels, and that's 373 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:12.960 why she got the two or three years at the studio that she did. 374 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.400 But Tom Drake, according to Get Happy Gerald Clark, Tom Drake, you 375 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.519 know, like many men in Hollywood were, was a closeted homosexual, and 376 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:27.599 so she judy latched onto him, and when they tried to consummate the relationship, 377 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:32.240 he could not perform, and she took that as a great insult to 378 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.240 her, so she shut him out after that. But also John Fricky has 379 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.319 written that they stayed great friends throughout the years, and that when she was 380 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.119 taping one of her television shows in the early nineteen sixties, he was in 381 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.039 the audience. She brought Tom Drake up to the stage and said, this 382 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.960 is my boy next door, and seeing the boy next to her door to 383 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:53.759 him, and it was all very sweet and whatnot. So you know, 384 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.160 you really don't know who to believe, do you. No, No, 385 00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:02.839 And it looks like we did a lot of the same research because I read 386 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:08.559 those same exact stories, except I didn't know about the the Clark stuff. 387 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.119 I didn't know about that, but I did know the all the different all 388 00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:19.559 the different boys next door, the Tom Drake coming on to her show in 389 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:23.119 the sixties. I mean, I've talked a little bit about like why this 390 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.759 film is so important. I just just have to say on this podcast, 391 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.880 because every prison I talked to about me, Me and Saint Louis, this 392 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.200 is this is one of the very first films I can ever remember seeing, 393 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.640 Like I've been watching old movies with my grandparents since I was three or four 394 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.440 years old, and it's not one of those things that you remember a first 395 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.160 time. It's just always been there, like your parents or your grandparents or 396 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.960 siblings or something like that. And I think, you know, I fell 397 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:52.920 in love with it because it was very it's a very very comfortable film to 398 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.920 watch if you're part of a big family and you have that in your life. 399 00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:57.200 Also, you know, some people could be like, well, this 400 00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:00.640 is just a bunch of privileged white people, you know, living a high 401 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:04.440 falutine life in Saint Louis in nineteen oh four. But that's besides the point. 402 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.559 I mean, I think the point that Manelli and Freed were trying to 403 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.839 make was even if this is not how the past looked, this is how 404 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.079 the past should have been, which gave people an even greater warmth. And 405 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.759 it's the evolution of a family over a year. And to say that it 406 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:23.640 doesn't have a plot is like to say that our lives don't have a plot 407 00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:27.319 or they don't have a point like big families don't. So anyway, I 408 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.759 have to say that say about that. But I did want to talk a 409 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.839 little bit about I mean, I have some notes over the development of it. 410 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:38.039 And it came out of like Sally Benson's stories, who was She published 411 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:41.400 her story short stories in a magazine. Arthur Reed read them, Arthur Freed 412 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:45.119 bought them, and then he went through lots of different screenwriters before he could 413 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:52.079 find two under contract at Metro that actually wrote something that he liked. But 414 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:56.000 then also there were all of these little subplots that they had to cut out. 415 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.599 Did you know that Lucille Brimmer was supposed to have a very large love 416 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.160 interest in the film, played by Hugh Marlowe, who was in All about 417 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.160 Eve the Colonel. Have you read some of this? Uh, yeah, 418 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.519 that you know. And there was a plot where Esther is trying to set 419 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:17.559 her up with the colonel and hides a closet and ends up getting arrested. 420 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.039 Yes, And then there's this big lawsuit I mean they were Yeah, in 421 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.039 the film, there's supposed to be this big lawsuit against the family and they 422 00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:27.640 were grasping at straws. I feel like some of the screenwriters to be like, 423 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:30.759 this film has no plot. We have to get how do we make 424 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.160 it dramatic exactly? How do we give it some sort of a conflict. 425 00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:40.279 But I mean it was the entire plot, the entire point conflict to the 426 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:44.160 film is There's no place like Home, which Arthur Freed loved and he was 427 00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:48.400 one of the people that was kind of got Wizard of Oz on the road 428 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.799 with producer Morvin Leroy, even though Arthur Freed is not credited for that film, 429 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.720 but he loved the idea of a big family and it was it. 430 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.599 Does it seems like conflict enough to me? I don't know about other people. 431 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.359 I love this movie so much and I talked to it, talk to 432 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.279 other people about it. I'm like, I just feel like I watched the 433 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.000 entire thing with rose colored glasses, Like I don't know any better. You 434 00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:15.039 know that it is just a beautiful movie. But talking a little bit about 435 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.920 like Vincent Manelli, did you I mean in Chasing Rainbow is it probably doesn't 436 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:25.920 even bring him up because it's about the younger Judy. No, yeah, 437 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:33.079 I mean, he's not even I don't even think he's working at MGM yet 438 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.319 at that point. But Roger Edens, who did the musical adaptations for the 439 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:44.440 movie, was Judy's longtime vocal coach, and there's a lot. We have 440 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.240 a lot to do with him in the show. That's awesome, And I 441 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.519 mean I love Roger Edens because he I mean, he did a lot of 442 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:55.480 the arrangements. He was her vocal coach for movies and movies on top of 443 00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:00.480 movies going into the nineteen sixties. But do you know much about Roger Edens 444 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:04.400 working on Me, Me and Saint Louis. That's one thing in the commentary 445 00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:09.480 that John Fricky didn't mention. Yeah, not really. And in the books 446 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:13.759 that I have, you know, there's like, I think one photo of 447 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.599 him in reference to Meet Me in Saint Louis. So I don't think he 448 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.480 really had that much to do with this movie. I think he was more, 449 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.680 you know, he did the arrangements and stuff and then was just sort 450 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.440 of you know, out of the picture right well. And at this time, 451 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:37.839 also, you know, Kate Thompson, who is Liza's godmother, had 452 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.839 come to I think she'd come off of Broadway, had recently come to Metro 453 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.319 and she, from what I've read, she was a little bit too eccentric 454 00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:50.759 for Arthur Freed, so they did not put her under contract as an actress, 455 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:53.839 but he put her under a contract as a vocal arranger, which she 456 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:57.359 had done a lot in the past, and she was a great performer on 457 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:01.759 Broadway. So I know that at this point a lot of Judy's gestures, 458 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:07.119 just how she sold a song was primarily influenced by Kay Thompson. And you 459 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.839 know, Kay Thompson was under contract at MGM in the mid nineteen forties, 460 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:16.200 So I don't even know if Roger Edens had that much as much to do 461 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:22.880 with this film as he did with Judy's previous films. Yeah, you know, 462 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.000 that seems to be what was going on. Yeah, because even in 463 00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:30.519 the story of her showing up late to record, it was Kay Thompson who 464 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:34.519 asked her if she wanted to run through the song. So I think she 465 00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:37.160 was the one who was there on set with her, yes, and it 466 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:42.039 yeah, more than likely, and she yeah, I would From what I've 467 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:44.720 read, she had, you know, just several people that she really really 468 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:47.359 trusted that she kept close to her at all times, and Kay Thompson was 469 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:52.160 one of them because she became Liza's godmother eventually and for people wondering, really 470 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:59.359 who Kay Thompson is. She played the fashion designer and funny face with Audrey 471 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.640 Hepperin in Front Stare in nineteen fifty seven, which I believe Roger Edens had 472 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:06.480 something to do with. Well, MGM had something to do with that, 473 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.079 because they put the entire film together and then Paramount wouldn't let them have Audrey 474 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:15.000 Hepburn, so then they sold the entire product to Paramount Pictures. But talking 475 00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:19.719 about Paramount Pictures, and you chime in whenever you went to Ruby, I 476 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.920 don't want to hog all of this time because I know you have some great 477 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.320 facts too, and that's why we're here to share these little stories. But 478 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:30.079 Vincent Manali had come from He's one of my favorite directors from Metro because he 479 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:37.119 directed so many great musicals well and several great comedies and melodramas in the late 480 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:40.599 fifties early sixties at Metro. But he was one that was he could the 481 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:45.199 composition. The visual composition was always going to be beautiful. He was going 482 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.239 to pack it with details, pack it with color, and then arrange it 483 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.360 in a way that was just breathtaking to look at. And I feel like 484 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:57.840 he was one that was fully enveloped in high art. He wanted to bring 485 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:00.639 that to musicals and all of his films as well. But he had he 486 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:07.679 was I think about twenty two years older than Judy, and he had first 487 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:14.639 worked I believe at department stores in Chicago, dressing windows out, so you 488 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.079 know, first and foremost, that's where he got his eye for composition, 489 00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:21.719 was dressing these giant windows in the Chicago department store. But then he went 490 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:24.920 on to New York and he directed numbers. He directed Broadway shows, He 491 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:30.679 directed giant folly numbers at Radio City Music Hall, which you can see some 492 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:35.920 of the influence of those folly numbers later in his films like zig Felt Follies 493 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:42.440 and American in Paris. And he had he was also a scenic designer, 494 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.519 and I know Arthur Freed had brought him to MGM around nineteen forty forty one, 495 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:51.679 but he had worked at Paramount Pictures for a short while in the nineteen 496 00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:53.679 thirties and they had tried to get him to direct musicals because he was such 497 00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.639 a big deal on Broadway and at Radio City Music Hall, and that didn't 498 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:00.960 pan out because Manelli said he did not like working at Paramount, so he 499 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:06.519 went back to Broadway. Then Arthur Freed brought him to MGM and he had 500 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.119 him direct several different musical numbers and like Strike Up the Band, I think 501 00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.159 Babes and Arms, Babes on Broadway, while not Babes and Arms because he 502 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.920 wasn't there yet, but like he directed one of Lena Horn's first musical numbers 503 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:24.199 and a musical adaptation called Panama Hattie. And also Freed just paid him musical 504 00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:29.920 producer. Arthur Freed just paid him to walk around the lot all day and 505 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:35.559 go watch rehearsals and the filming of their musicals so he could learn how to 506 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.079 make film musicals, which would be just like a dream job for me. 507 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.559 I was like, I wish somebody would pay mu to go watch them make 508 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:46.760 MGM musicals. But yeah, that's one of the very first things he did 509 00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:50.519 was he was just paid. He was put under contract to go watch them 510 00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:54.360 make musicals, which I think is absolutely fascinating. But he was also he 511 00:36:54.440 --> 00:37:00.559 was also definitely a character. He was very shy, but he always dressed 512 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:04.159 very very well and I know one of the very first films he went to 513 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.039 go watch them film was a Shirley Temple movie, the only movie Shirley Temple 514 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.320 did at MGM. He showed up with a full face of makeup, which 515 00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:15.519 shocked all the women you know on the set and so and you know, 516 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:20.760 Catherine Grayson was always like, he's just not somebody. He's not marrying material 517 00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:22.880 is what the women would call him. And then of course when Judy got 518 00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.280 wind of these rumors, she said, well, I can change him, 519 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:30.360 which anyway, it was a different time, as you will know. Yes, 520 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:37.960 and she was often attracted to gay, closeted gay men, so because 521 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:43.559 her father was a closeted gay man, and he died when she was thirteen, 522 00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.320 only a couple months after she shined her contract with MGM. So it's 523 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:51.480 sort of you know, she sort of spent her life looking for him and 524 00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.960 other people, right, Well, yes, I would definitely think that, 525 00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:00.320 and I mean, yeah, I know her father they had. One of 526 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.960 the reasons that Ethel and Judy left California was because they had kind of been 527 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.880 run out because her father ran a movie theater in Grand Rapids and this is 528 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:15.119 nasty, nasty stuff in the get Happy book. But he was caught more 529 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:17.639 than once doing stuff with young boys in the back of the movie theater. 530 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:22.719 And so finally they were kind of shunned and run out of Grand Rapids. 531 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:30.679 That's why they left Minnesota. And then that's partly why Judy and her mother 532 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:37.000 went and moved to Los Angeles from Antelope Valley as well. They had to 533 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.360 sell the house, and he was sleeping in the movie theater, right right, 534 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:45.039 Well, and yeah, that's very sad, And I don't think that 535 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:50.239 she was completely aware of that. Probably not at the time, No, 536 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:52.719 And I don't know, I don't know if she was ever aware of that, 537 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:57.000 but yeah, she was. To come back to the point that you 538 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.199 were making, she was very much attracted to closet a gay men. In 539 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.679 closeted gay men are still attracted to her, aren't they to this day? 540 00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:08.480 To this day, all gay men okay, in the book Get Happy. 541 00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:12.719 Of course, I keep telling you how nasty it is. It is nasty. 542 00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.239 It made several interesting points though, because, like we were talking, 543 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:20.880 she had never played the on Jenue beautiful leading strawberry blonde on Jenoux like Esther 544 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:24.480 Smith. She had always been the quirky girl with a ricense of humor. 545 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:30.199 That was Mickey Rooney's best friend. And she so she had gotten married in 546 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:35.159 forty one or forty two to a man named David Rose. And he was 547 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:39.000 a He had his own orchestra. He composed like easy listening, like Holiday 548 00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:43.039 for Strings was one of his pieces. He was in his early thirties. 549 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.360 She was like eighteen or nineteen. Have you heard about David Rose? What 550 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:49.480 a character. Oh, I don't know much about him, but other than 551 00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.840 that he was her first husband, yeah, yes. And he also he 552 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:58.480 was obsessed with trains. So when they got married, they bought a big 553 00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:04.039 house in California, and he laid train tracks throughout like their living room, 554 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.719 their house, and out on their front lawn. And he had like a 555 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:10.960 little miniature like a little miniature train that you would see like at a children's 556 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.679 amusement park. And after working every day, he would just come home and 557 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:17.840 ride that train on the tracks around and around and around. And he would 558 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:22.519 invite friends over just to ride that train. And that's how he blew off 559 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:24.719 steam. He didn't play golf, He didn't play a sport, you know. 560 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:28.840 He didn't listen to the radio or go to the races. He just 561 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:34.360 rode his train, which I knew was very frustrating for her, and the 562 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.400 fact that he was a very much older, more kind of he was definitely 563 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.599 an introvert and she was more extroverted, and they just did not get along. 564 00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:45.760 And another reason that that relationship did not work out was because she did 565 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:49.880 get pregnant and he did not want a baby. Ethel did not want her 566 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:54.119 to have a baby, and neither did Louis b. Mayor. So after 567 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:58.239 she found out she was pregnant, you might have heard this story, but 568 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.360 Ethel went to Judy and said, you know, Judy, this cannot happen. 569 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:04.559 David doesn't want it. You have a very busy work schedule. You 570 00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.119 cannot take care of a baby. And I know Judy loved children, and 571 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.800 that's one of the reasons she got married to him, even though she could 572 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:13.159 see that it might not work out. For all times, she was like, 573 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.960 at least I get to have a baby. And they I know Ethel 574 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:22.159 took her to a clinic outside of Los Angeles and they got they they aborted 575 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:27.480 it, and that that was kind of a nail in their coffin for the 576 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.360 relationship. I feel like, but after that, I mean it was she 577 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:35.079 was in love with Artie Shaw at a different time. That was a sad 578 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:37.320 story because he was in his late twitter. Does Artie Shaw pop up and 579 00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:45.199 chasing Rainbows? No, But I think the Areaty Show thing happened before she 580 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:49.760 married David Rose. I think that's what sort of pushed her into because he 581 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:54.280 just like ran off and like eloped with Ava Gardner. I think Lana Turner, 582 00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:01.559 Lana Turner some some some beautiful at MGM. Yeah, and like I 583 00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:06.519 think, you know, they were they did have a relationship and then he 584 00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:13.559 just she finds out that he eloped, like in the news basically yeah, 585 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.760 and then she's, yeah, that's sort of what pushed her, uh to 586 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:22.599 David Rose. Well and David Rose. Okay, so this is going back 587 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:24.639 a little bit because Judy was like fifteen or sixteen at the time that she 588 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:29.800 was in a relationship, in a relationship sort of with Artie Shaw, and 589 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:34.280 he was in his late twenties. And when Judy found out in the news, 590 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:37.719 she had to that day go on to Bob Hope's radio show, which 591 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:42.119 she did every Tuesday night, and David Rose and singer Margaret Whiting were the 592 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.920 two people that comforted Judy after she found out about Artie. So then she 593 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:49.320 lashed onto David Rose because he had been there to comfort her. He felt 594 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.679 very very comfortable. But after her Okay, so now we're going to jump 595 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.039 back into after David Rose's relationship while that was still fizzling out, and they 596 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.280 were trying to get a divorce, which took a long time in California in 597 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.519 those days. It might still. I don't know. I've never tried to 598 00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:07.400 get a divorce in California. But she was. She met and fell in 599 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:13.440 love with Tyrone Power. He was married to a French actress. They got 600 00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:17.039 along very well, orson wells for just like a hot second, and then 601 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.719 I know that And this may not exactly be an order, but by the 602 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:23.800 time that she was in talk for Meet Me and Saint Louis, by the 603 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:27.599 time Freed came to her and said this will be your next picture, she 604 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:30.800 was dating Joseph L. Makowitz, the Joseph L. Maqwitz, writer, 605 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:36.880 producer, director of All About Eve and Letter to Three Wives and Barefoot Contessa, 606 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:39.519 some of Hollywood's biggest and best films, And at that point he was 607 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:44.320 a producer at Metro. He had also worked as a writer. He wanted 608 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:47.320 to work as a director, and he had gotten an offer from Fox with 609 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:52.199 more money to be writer, producer, director, and he you know, 610 00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:57.719 he had dated a lot of glamour girls at Metro, but he stated that 611 00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.599 they were all superficial compared to Judy. She was like this raw, pulsing 612 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:05.079 nerve of emotion, one of the most interesting people he had ever met. 613 00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:08.199 He at the time was married, but his wife had gone. His wife 614 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:15.000 was undergoing psychoanalysis in another state because she had had a severe emotional breakdown. 615 00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:17.599 So he started this love affair with Judy and she Judy told her sister, 616 00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:22.079 you probably know this, well, he's the most interesting man I've ever met. 617 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:24.960 Judy at this point for me and my gal presenting Lily Mars were two 618 00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:29.559 of her first adult roles, and she really liked that. And so when 619 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:31.199 Freed came to her and said, well, you're going to play this teenage 620 00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:35.079 girl next door, She's like, ah ah no, not again. And 621 00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:38.400 Mikawitz even said, this is not good for your career because now you're backtracking 622 00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:44.000 back into the Andy Hardy series, which you know, she didn't want to 623 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.679 be a look like looked at that like that anymore about critics and even I 624 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:52.039 think in nineteen forties, in nineteen forty with Strike Up the Band, critics 625 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.400 had started to say, miss Garland as growing into this beautiful young woman, 626 00:44:55.440 --> 00:45:01.119 why don't you start using her as such? And so so Makawitz had told 627 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:06.400 her. Makawitz had actually written a script for her, which was called The 628 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.039 Pirate, which she ended up doing in nineteen forty seven, nineteen forty seven, 629 00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:12.880 forty eight. Yeah, you roll your eyes when I say that. 630 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:17.079 That was Have you heard about the name too? That is Manelli, Yeah, 631 00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:22.320 Jean Kelly, and it is it is gorgeous to look at is Yeah, 632 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:28.679 but it's really bad. Well, and I think it. The finished 633 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:32.119 product ended up being a lot different than what they originally had planned. Judy 634 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:36.519 was all well, they had to cut out so many musical numbers for Judy 635 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:40.639 because she had just gotten off of maternity leave with Liza, and she had 636 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:45.519 just cold turkey, stopped all of her pills, all of the alcohol cigarettes, 637 00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:49.159 and then just picked it up immediately. She did not want to be 638 00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:52.719 at the studio. And that's another thing we can talk about. An interesting 639 00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.960 article from forty four to forty five with Judy, but yeah, she didn't 640 00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.760 want to be at the studio. She was not at the top of her 641 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:02.360 game. Gene Kelly events at Manelli kind of they g and Kelly said later 642 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:06.320 they formed their own boys club that they kept Judy out of because they were 643 00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.239 trying to create something so big and beautiful in high art that they lost track 644 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:14.119 of what they were really trying to create. But yeah, what was I 645 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:16.039 talking? Oh? Yes, Makeowitz had written a script for her of the 646 00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:22.800 Pirate what she wanted to do free and I think the script that they worked 647 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.559 on later was not written by Makowitz because what happened was Judy said, I 648 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.280 do not want to do this picture. And then on top of that, 649 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.920 Makowitz had suggested to Judy that she undergo psychoanalysis every morning before she go to 650 00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:38.920 the studio. And you might have heard this story before, but she ended 651 00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:45.480 up going through psychoanalysis for several months, which caused in Judy Garland a rise 652 00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:51.880 in individualism. And Ethyl Gum noticed it first. And you know, Judy 653 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.000 had always been the good little girl who did what she was told by mister 654 00:46:54.079 --> 00:47:00.639 Mayor and Ethel Gum and Judy started questioning everything. Ethel was telling her to 655 00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:02.199 do and why do I need to do this? Why do I need to 656 00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:06.719 do this? Why do I need to overwork myself? So Ethel found out 657 00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:10.000 about Joe Makeowhitt saying you need to undergo psychoanalysis. And then so she went 658 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:13.719 to mister Mayor and she said, now this isn't going to work out, 659 00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:17.400 because yeah, it's not going to work out. And uh so Mayor called 660 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:22.679 in Makowitz to his office and said, now this has to stop. Joe. 661 00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:25.079 You know, she can't continue to do this. And Joe Mankowitz was 662 00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:28.760 like, well, she's a very very sick little girl. She needs, 663 00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:30.400 you know, some sort of help, and you can't just control her. 664 00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:35.159 She is not your puppet. Joe Mancowitz stormed out of the office. They 665 00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:37.960 didn't say anything until several weeks later. They were both on the train from 666 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:44.000 New York to Los Angeles and Mayor and Makowitz bumped into each other and Mayor 667 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:45.719 said, now you need to stop with stop this with Judy. You can't 668 00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:52.280 do this anymore with Judy, and Makowitz said, Mayor went on this long 669 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.159 rant about patriotism and a woman's role in society and a man's role in society, 670 00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.480 and you know you are my worker and you should do as I'm told. 671 00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:04.039 And then Makewitz said, after Louis v. Meyer was finished, he 672 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:07.800 said, that is just the ravings of a jealous old man. And so 673 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:13.440 Makewitz it was kind of you know, he just walked away from the studio 674 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:16.440 and two weeks later he was over working at twentieth Century Fox for more money 675 00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:21.079 where he could direct, write and produce. So part of the reason that 676 00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:23.400 Judy was so pent up about not doing meet Me and Saint Louis. With 677 00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:28.519 Joe Makeowitz also talking about Ethel Gunn. Did you know she was under contract 678 00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:34.480 to Metro to report to mayor everything Judy did. Uh, yeah, and 679 00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.519 I know that she Yeah, she got paid, she had her own yeah, 680 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:42.239 heycheck, and she made more than Judy did it early early on. 681 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:49.920 Really yeah, not that Judy's money didn't go directly to her anyway. Right. 682 00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.280 Yeah, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm kind of making you cringe 683 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:54.800 now. You're like, oh, this is all the bad stuff, all 684 00:48:54.800 --> 00:49:00.039 the bad memories. But I mean, it's just very interesting how all this 685 00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:05.320 all came together, with Judy and Joe, Megowetes of all people, and 686 00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:07.920 Ethel Gumm and Louis v. Meyer. For me, it's very interesting, 687 00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:13.880 and the original script had all these different subplots in it that Judy thought were 688 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:20.840 silly and ridiculous as well. Thank you for listening to the Hollywood The Babylonians. 689 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:29.840 You have been listening to The Hollywood Babylonians. The Hollywood Babylonians is produced, 690 00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:36.039 edited and hosted by bin Berg and co hosted by Ruby Raco's audio engineering 691 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.360 by Andrew Davis, with artwork by bin Berg and Jamie Lee. If you 692 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.840 liked what you heard today, be sure to rate, review and subscribe and 693 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:49.119 follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube at the Hollywood Babylonians. 694 00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:54.159 For more Hollywood Babylonians content, tune in next Friday, December twenty second, 695 00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:59.199 as we continue to discuss meet Me and Saint Louis and Judy Garland with 696 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:06.639 Star They promote Playhouses production of Chasing Rainbows The Road to ourz Ruby Rakos, 697 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:09.039 thank you for listening and having a good night.