In this episode, we are part two with Austin Arrowwood. This one is
called Austin Gets a Dick. If you haven't listened to part one, you're
like what or we just trust me? Okay, if you're listening to this
you didn't listen to part one, go ahead and get to part one.
I have Austin Arrowwood here. We are doing an interview and Austin gets dick
surgery slash bottom surgery next week, and so we are going to discuss so
be right back. Well, hello there, this is Hellllo. This is
Shelley from Latderday Lesbian podcast, the ex Mormon gay girl, just trying to
figure out life. I'm here with Austin and we are continuing our discussion.
Austin, how you doing. I'm good. How are you? I am
great? Are you ready to talk about body parts? Absolutely sweet? Okay,
So quick review. The last episode kind of went over some of your
history. Again, go listen to it if you haven't yet. We already
talked about your boob surgery. Those came off. Basically that was just about
the best thing ever for you as far as your mental health, your physical
health. So at what point were you then thinking hmmm, so boobs are
gone, now what? So I would say it was after after I started
to lose weight and I can actually see my another regents because you know,
I had a postpartum belly, you know, I get it. Yeah,
so, and I just started to feel like I still wasn't complete, like
I thought I would be okay without it, and then I was like,
no, I'm really not. But when you're on testosterone, you get bottom
growth, so okay, you know, the clatorius grows and it can get
up to two or three inches long. Honestly, see, these are things
that I don't know, so feel free to like spill all all the goods.
Yeah, so you have like a little mini penis, like a micro
penis, but I still have my female parts as well, and I had
had my uterus, cervix, ovaries, tubes, everything removed, so there's
nothing in there, but it still reacts to sexual pleasure the same way.
So you get you know, moisture whatever, gotcha. I hate that word,
but yeah, okay, yeah, but it grosses me out like and
it always has, and so I was like, I want that gone.
And I have been trying to pee standing up since I was little, Like
that's not easy, by the way, as with woman parts, not easy.
Not with the anatomy I was born with. I have dribbled down my
legs so many times trying to stand over a toilet because I thought boys were
cooler than girls. Yeah, oh well yeah. And I remember being with
my friend. My best friend was a boy when I was ten. We
were dirt biking in the woods and he, of course could pee on a
tree, and I was like, well, I should be able to do
that too, because I realized I wasn't a boy, and it did not
work, and I peed all down my pants and I was like, what
the hell, Like that is not cool. So one of the huge bad
parts about having the female anatomy is the inability to properly pee on a tree
exactly. Yeah. You know, like if you have to pee when you're
driving down the highway, you can't just pull over and pee on the side
of the highway. No, it's like you got you pee all over your
leg? How do you wipe? Like now your socks are wet? I
get it. Yeah's been there yea. So so I just decided that I
needed bottom surgery. And I knew that, but then I had to decide
what bottom surgery I wanted because for you know, for male to female,
there's really only one. There's the vaginal plast and that did well for female
to You can either do a metoidoplasty, which is basically where they just release
the clatorus from the ligaments that surround it so it can extend to its full
length, and then they seal up the vaginal canal. If you want it
sealed up, they can extend the urethra to the tip of the clatorus and
then you you know, turn the laby into a scrot them in there you
go with falloplasty, there's a little more involved to it. So at first
I wasn't going to do that because I thought, I really don't want the
scar. You know, they take my forearm and they will take a graft
from my forearm that's like five inches long, goes all the way around your
forearm, and then they take another graph from your leg to cover that spot
and they make the phallus out of your forearm. Why do they use the
forearm skin? Is it more similar to penis skin? Is that correct?
Yeah? So it's the texture, the elasticity, everything is very similar to
a natal penis. And then There's also the sensation is better in your forearm.
So if you take your finger and you rub it along the inside of
your forearm compared to like the inside of your thigh, there's definitely more sensation.
So they try the area with the most sensation and the best blood flow,
which generally is people's arms. Most people have better blood flow in their
arms than they do in their legs, so they're going for the best blood
flow, the best nerve supply, and the best skin that resembles a natal
penis. So I was really hesitant to do that at first. I was
like, I think I could just do the metoio plasty and I'd be okay
with that. Had you spoken to any doctors yet or are you just kind
of looking online at this point and looking at options. I had been looking
at falloplasties online for like ten years. Oh wow. Yeah. So before
I even came out as trans, I was looking up the surgery, like,
okay, let's talk about that, Austin. You suld do that whole
thing. Jesus Austin, this is some big shit. Okay. So before
you even came out as trans, you were looking at at surgeries that a
trans person would get So then, were you thinking you were trans you just
didn't want to admit to it, or you were curious what was going on?
No, I knew, like I said, I knew when when I
was twenty five, I knew. I just couldn't vocalize it because I did
not want to hurt anyone. I didn't want to hurt my family. I
didn't want to hurt my kids. I was so afraid of the backlash people
pleaser, I get it. Yeah, I was like, I can't do
this. I can't hurt them. So you're getting information, but in your
mind, are you just it's curiosity because you're not going to actually do it
right, or were you maybe hopefully you know. I was like one of
those people that was like, if I could go to sleep and wake up
with a penis, it wouldn't be the worst thing, you know. So
it's kind of like cool, Like I wasn't really looking at I'm going to
do this to myself. It was more Wow, science is so cool,
Like they can do that, they can wow, you know, like this
is amazing. And so when I would tell people about it and they would
give me a weird look, I would be like, I'm just amazed at
what science can do, like, isn't this cool? Like, well,
so was there other science things you looked into or was it just the people?
Come on now, yeah, I researched all the science stuff. Okay,
I bet yeah no so uh yeah, my Google searches were kind of
weird, but I bet yeah. So I had been looking like into surgery,
it's like that for like ten years. So I it was more amount
of when I decided I'm going to do bottom surgery, it was what do
I want to have done? And there were things that I knew were non
negotiables for me. I wanted to vagnect me because I cannot stand having any
kind of pole there. And I wanted you rethrow linkedening because I want to
stand to pee like. Those were my two non negotiables. After that,
it was do I want well with the matoidoplast. The issue is some men
can't clear their fly because there's not enough lengths when you're only using an extended
clatorus to clear the fly in like peet a urnal, so I would still
have to go into a stall. Gota got you, gotcha? And most
female born people have not been in men's restrooms in a man's men's restroom in
like a store or whatever, there's generally one stall and three urnals. So
if someone's in there watching a game on their phone, which generally seems to
be the case, or playing a game or whatever trying to kill time,
then if people have to use the stall, they have to wait. So
you know where women seem to go in, they pee, they wash their
hands, and they leave. You know, men go in the bathroom and
kill time in the stall if it's available. So, and the stalls are
always disgusting in men's bathrooms, they're gross. So I was like, okay,
Jenny, the p is not negotiable. I say, Plus, urinals
are very cool. They are. I mean I have gone drunk, thank
you, drunk into a men's restroom because women's was packed and thought this would
be fun to use the urinal. Now I don't have a penis. I
made a mess. I was drunk, But like, they're just one of
those cool things I think that you just have to experience once in your life.
Yeah, all right, so you want to be able to pece standing
up, which I get. I'm not making light of that, like like
yeah, that's yeah, I get it. Yeah, And no, vaginal
canal. So those were my two, Like have two? What do you?
I know, I'm really prying. Now let's talk about the vaginal canal.
Is it gross to you? Is it too female for you? What
is it that makes you like I don't want that? All of the above?
Yeah, Like it was always gross to me. So from the time
I was old enough that I started having any kind of discharge. So I
was like, this is disgusting, Like this is so gross. I don't
what is the point of this whole thing. Ew So you know, I
had an eating disorder when I was a teenager to stop my periods. So
I had like three percent body fat in high school. Okay, let's talk
about that. You just skimmed over this part of your life, Jesus awten.
And this is why this is now a two parts interview. So you
what was it about your period? Was it because it was such a female
thing that you didn't want to have, or was you just like gross in
general? It was a reminder that I had the wrong body every month and
wow, you know, so I would get suicidal every month when my period
would start, and I was like, this is so gross. It's just
gross, Like why what is the point of this, And of course I
knew it's so you could have babies. Bah whatever. No, it's like
it's still disgusting, Like can't we just do away with it? And You're
not the first trans man that I've heard say that about having their period is
like practically a death sentence every month, like this is so horrible. I
don't want to be here anymore because this is so bad, because it's just
not who you are right right. Well, And there was also the my
mom had the you couldn't use tampon's rule, shut the fuck up. Yeah,
so I only got pads, and you know, they didn't have the
nice little thin pads that they have now that they were pillows back then.
Yeah, And so I was like everyone could see it in the outline of
your pants, you know, like they were just disgusting. And I was
like you you like, ah, so yeah, no, it was horrible.
Yeah. So you knew that if you lost enough weight, your period
would likely stop, right, Yeah, that was some science I found out
by accident. Actually really tell me. Yeah, So I started self harming
probably around the time my period started. It started restricting food. I joined
the track team so I would get up and I would do a paper out
in the morning at four. Then I went to seminary, then I went
to school. After school, I had track practice. I would come home
from track practice and I would run another ten miles Jesus. I usually ate
once a day. So and it was not a lot of food, like
an apple, maybe a sandwich, and that was it. Why Because I
hated my body, telling you, okay, I wanted to be just all
muscle, like got it, Okay, you didn't like the curves and the
baby fat and the female okay, okay, I did not want boobs.
So while I was doing all that, I had no boobs. I was
three percent body fat and I had no period. So I was like,
yes, like teenage boyhood without having the boy you know, super healthy choices.
Austin huh yeah, God, oh that makes me sad, but I'm
sure so many people do that. Wow. Yeah, you know. I
always thought I was fat too growing up, and I don't it. Maybe
I wasn't, but it was like, you know, just the girl padding.
I had boobs and I had you know, like when you hit puberity,
you start women's their hips spread a little bit. Not that I did
that much I still have my boy hips. But any kind of like that
padding that's natural and healthy for a woman when you don't feel like you're a
woman and that hits you that, I can only imagine how that would feel.
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't It wasn't good. Did your parents know
that you were that you had an eating disorder? Was that anything that you
talked about? No? No, I mean they kind of figured out I
was self injuring, but I would tell them I got beat up by a
bully at school, or that I tripped and fell, or how were you
self injuring? I would cut myself with anything I could get hold of.
I would hit myself in the face, like smash my face against stuff.
Yeah, that kind of stuff. And when you were doing that, why
what was your brain telling you? So most people who self injure do it
because the pain inside is so great that if they can refocus it to external
pain, it makes it go away. Not for our long time, but
for a little bit. You can ignore the pain internally because you're focusing on
a pain externally. Gotcha, that's how it was for you. Wow,
at what age were you doing that? Did you start when you start your
period? Said roughly yeah, okay, So so in your mind, then
did you recognize that it was because you didn't feel like your gender and your
parts lined up, like did you have the maturity? I guess the thought
pattern of this is why I'm doing this, or you're just were like,
I hurt, I need to stop hurting. It was I hurt and my
body is wrong. Not that it didn't align, because I didn't really put
that together because I didn't think that was an option. So it was just
it felt wrong. So it's one of those things where if you always feel
wrong in your body but you don't know why, you're just kind of like
I just feel wrong, like, you know, And I couldn't really put
words to it because I didn't know, like, I just knew it felt
wrong. So that's what I would tell people, like I just feel wrong.
And they're like, but you're you're fine, you know, I got
you're cute. You should be a cheerleader, you know, blah blah blah,
and that's what you want to do. Yeah. Well, and they
wanted me to be the flyer, you know, so because I was tiny,
so they were like, we want you to be the flyer, you
know, And I was like, no, Like, if I'm in a
cheerlead, I want to be like on the bottom of the pyramid. Yeah,
and I want to are peeling those girls up yeah, you know right,
you know, like if I can look up their skirts. Cool.
Yeah, I don't want to hear you know, sit on my hand.
I'll hold you above my head. Absolutely. I don't want to be up
in the air like no, oh wow. So so how long? And
I know we're hopping around because that's how my brain works. How long did
you continue with this pattern of self harm? Like? Did this go well
into adulthood and marriage and everything? Oh? Yeah, yeah, up until
pop surgery? Really yeah your therapist? Did you tell your therapist about it?
M h? And their response was they knew. I mean, of
course they wanted me to stop. I signed so many safety agreements through the
years, you know whatever. You just get better at hiding, yeah,
what you're doing. Yeah. So I just thought of a question, what
was it like for you? You being pregnant and having a child. That's
probably people will look a look at that as being like the most womanly thing
a woman can do, right, What was that like for you? I
didn't mind being pregnant I had easy pregnancies. Uh, and my periods stopped.
Ah, good point, you know, so for the pregnancy plus breastfeeding,
I didn't have to worry about it. That was definitely a bonus.
It was weird, I guess like I would. I remember watching my stomach
when you could see like the baby's feet move across, your hands move across,
and being like an alien. You know, it's just kind of weird.
But but I mean, it is weird, let's be honest. Yeah
it is, but it wasn't bad. It wasn't bad. It wasn't You
don't know if it was extraordinarily weird for you because you felt like a man.
Yeah no, I felt just disconnected. Okay, I get you.
That makes sense. Like I could look at it as I'm growing a baby.
Mm hmm, so it was like a science clinical Okay. Yeah,
I'm thinking about this in my head because I'm thinking about how I felt being
pregnant, and it was again I'm not trans. It was fine. I
didn't feel extraordinarily womanly. I did hate how huge my boobs got, but
that's just because I am not a fan of having huge boothe but it's not
because I'm trans. I just don't like huge boobs. What was that like
for you? I mean, did your boobs get huge? So I was
a double D prior to pregnancy to a G they make those, yeah,
yeah they do. It looked like watermelons on both sides. I was,
Yeah, I did not like that part at all, right, right,
And I remember I googled a lot of breast reduction, you know, like
what what would you need to get a medical brass or rest reduction? Yeah,
and I never liked those. I did have an issue with that.
What about nursing? Was that weird? Not really, but again and I
kind of detached myself from it. I guess we just like I'm feeding my
kid, and you know it was like I'm just feeding my mother child bonding.
No, I mean it wasn't that way for me either, because I
hate breastfeeding. But again, not trans I'm just as I'm thinking of things
that I didn't like about pregnancy. Yeah, just wondering like was that like
the breastfeeding that's such a again in quotation woman thing to do, but you
just sort of disconnect it. You're just feeding a kid. Yeah. I
looked at it as well. It's easier than making bottles and it's healthy,
and you know, like it was all just a it was a process.
So I guess I was good at disconnecting myself from my body. But I
had to do that in order to have sex. Good point, Oh you
want to talk Do you want to talk about that? Sure? I mean,
yeah, I I married my ex husband because he courced me into having
sex prior to us being married. Gotcha, I knew I was chewed gum
and no one would want me because I had been tainted. You have no
choice at that point in my mind, I had no choice. I was
seventeen, Like right, you know, seventeen year old aren't smart? So
whatever. Yeah, So anyone listening that doesn't have a Mormon or religious background,
there's this teaching in the Mormon Church and other churches that the girls are
taught from go right, to keep yourself clean and pure for your future husband,
like this is your value as being a virgin and being chased, and
I fucking hate that shit. So there there would be teachings like in class
as you're a teenager, a teenage girl, about would you chew somebody's already
chewed gum? No, you wouldn't. Well guess what if you're not a
virgin, you're chewed gum. There was one of the teaching. I remember
that teaching, and I remember about the who wants apple with a bite already
taken out of it? Right? More recently, in in the last ten
years, it was do you really want a cracked iPad? You know,
like, what the fuck? What a horrible teaching. And I know that
I've talked about this a shit tone on multiple episodes of the podcast because it's
so so damaging. But you know, look at what it did to you.
Again, you chose to marry him, did you? Did you really?
Right? Right? Like, no, you didn't because because you're only
worth is being a virgin for yourself, right, and so since your virginity
was gone, it's it's him or no one in your mind. I'm sure
I was not a virgin when I got married, and so I this is
going to sound horrible. I would have married whatever boy, man, whatever
came along and was willing to marry me. Right. I remember you saying,
you know, it's like whoever, what have you? Because you're taught
your value just went like you know, strike driving a used car off the
lot, you know, like, yeah, your value just decreased by seventy
five percent, Like what, so it's so fucked up, it's so fucked
up, And so then you end up having these marriages that should have never
happened in the first place. M h. Which is why the divorce rate
is astronomical. Astronomical. It's funny too, and I'm going off track here,
but you know, people in the church will talk about how wicked the
world is getting that, you know, the divorce rates are so high,
and if you leave the church, your family will fall apart, your marriage
will fall apart. In that psych because you're doing wicked things. But no,
no, no, no. I think people who leave the church,
a lot of them recognize I never should have gotten married to this person.
And it's not a dis on the other person. I'm just saying, they're
like, there' see, I should never I would never do this in the
real world with my actual brain functioning and be making choices on my own.
And that's why the marriage is end. It's not because now you're a sinner.
It's because you're finally able to use your brain and recognize this shit should
never have happened. Like, wow, we have nothing in common. We
you know, let right, we hate each other. I don't even want
to have coffee with you, Like, what what the fuck? I you
know? Uh yeah, So no, you don't just leave the church and
become wicked and that's why your family falls apart. You leave the church and
you start thinking about your life and you're going, oh hmm, yeah,
that that was a bad choice that was made. Choice in quotations that was
made. Yeah, I don't know what got me off on that tangent?
Oh the so the sex with the with the husband. So the reason that
you got married was because you were now tainted, right, So well,
if you're gonna get married, it's gonna have to be him. And that's
such a healthy way to start a marriage. Absolutely, it's the best way
to start a marriage. So, so, did you guys get married civilly
and then went to the temple or did we wait a year? Yeah?
Uh, we got married civilly and then a year later went through the temple,
and of course that was the disappointment of the family. You know,
got to have a civil wedding because you're you know, the center. Did
your bishop do the wedding? He did, and he gave the lovely speech,
you know, that that's like, now, remember that this is only
for time because blah blah blah, and when you die, you're not going
to be together anymore, and the only way to do that is to go
through the temple. And it's like, you know, like your wedding is
just one huge, like lecture, and it's like it was like a death
or something, and you're like, wow, this is such a great occasion.
I'm so happy I'm doing this, Like, wow, let's let's celebrate.
I'm like, what is wrong with you people? So well, you
probably knew, I mean, had you had you been to civil weddings before,
like been to wine seeing that shit? Okay, so did were you
prepared for the lecture you were getting there? Okay? Yeah, I went
to a friend's wedding. I mean I was probably twenty at the time,
I guess, and she had gotten pregnant and so they had a civil wedding
first, so she had to hurry and get married before she was starting to
show, right, But everyone knows, like if you're Mormon and you're getting
married not in the temple, people know it's either because you got knocked up
or you're for sure having sex, Like that's that's oh yeah, and you're
not gonna stop having sex, So you're gonna get married and then go to
the temple in a year. You're gonna have sex for that year. It's
ridiculous, But I remember the bishop, uh there, and these, by
the way, are not temple weddings when the bishop is doing them like in
the cultural hall for listeners who don't know that, by the way, the
cultural hall is basically a gym. Yeah. I think we did a whole
episode about like the ridiculous decorations in a cultural or wedding streamers from the basketball
hoops. Yep, hell yeah, uh. Anyway, it's I don't know
if the bishop is instructed to say this. He probably is, or they
just can't resist the urge to point out that your wedding valves that you're saying
they're in the gym slash cultural hall are not for time and all eternity.
It's till death do us part. And it is driven home to you that
you fucked up by having to get married for time only, and that the
only way to have this person for eternity is to basically get your shit together
and go to the temple in a year. Yep. Yep. And if
you die on the way home from your from your honeymoon, you're fought.
Well, you're done, like not getting into heaven. Now that's such a
Jesus thing to do, by the way, to just fucking separate people who
love each other. Right, No, Well, well, you know,
when my daughter got married in the temple, I had a bunch of people,
you know, who would make comments to me like you're choosing a lesbian
lifestyle over being in your daughter's wedding, And I'm like, not really,
Like I'm not the one who chose to get married in the temple. I'm
not the one who chose to exclude me from the ceremony. Like that's the
church that chose that. You're also not the one who chose to be a
lesbian, like right, Like that you didn't choose to be attracted to women,
right. And I had another child who had already left the church.
So I was like, so you're telling me that I'm basically having to choose
between my children because when I die, you know, if I go to
heaven, I'm not going to see him, But if I go to Hell,
I'm not going to see her. So so I have to choose God,
Like, does God really do that? Does he make you choose between
your children? No kind of supreme being that I would ever believe in would
do that, Like, that's some bullshit, but I hadn't thought about that.
So with you having one kid that's Mormon and a believer and one that's
not, Like, if you become super Mormon again, not that that will
ever happen, so that you can go to the highest Kingdom of Heaven and
be with your super obedient family. That's like telling you your non Mormon kid,
like, sorry, I'm gonna go be with the righteous people, right,
right, But if you choose to live your authentic life, which I
would say would be good for the kid who's not a member, right,
you're setting the example of being true to yourself. Well, now you're excluding
yourself fraternity from being with your super Mormon kid. Yeah that's so fucked up.
Yeah, but people don't see that. Oh Mormon's you know all about
family really yeah really yeah Jesus. Anyway, that was quite the offshoot tantrum
that got no one here to really back in. So I'm just going for
it works for me. Okay, So you had to get married sex with
the husband was this just like this connect, this isn't happening. Whatever,
be done with it? Yeah, like out of body kind of yeah,
disconnect. So I know for me, it was hard for me because again
I'm a lesbian. That's kind of a name of the podcast. So having
straight sex was not a thing that I really wanted to do. And so
because I did something sexual but I didn't want to do, I always felt
cheap, kind of like a whore. And this wasn't put on me by
my husband at all. He didn't even know I was having these thoughts at
all. This was just my internal conversation anything like that. For you,
what was it? It was more like being raped, Yeah, because you're
doing what you don't want to do. I'm sorry. I think a lot
of women in marriages go through that. Whether you're straight or gay, it
doesn't matter, but I think that a lot of women just kind of like,
well, this is my job, this is what I'm supposed to do.
Well, yeah, because if he masturbates or watches port, it's your
fault, right doing your job. Yeah, he's not getting enough. Yeah,
So you know, it's like you're responsible for your own salvation and your
husband's salvation and your kid's salvation. And that's a lot of people that you're
trying to get into heaven, you know, So aren't you glad we'd have
to worry about getting people to heaven anymore. Hallelujah, let'm worry it's about
themselves. Let's just all go to hell Jesus, It's gonna be way better.
Yeah. So, how many years were you married? I was married
for ten years. Okay, so ten years of just trying to toe the
line. M h and I during your marriage? Was that a lot of
the time that you spent in and out of facilities for mental health? I
think it's been about once a year for the last four years we were married.
Yeah. And then I was like, I can't do this. Yeah.
Terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. That's some deep shit. I
hate that for you and for everyone. And by the way, thank you
for being vulnerable enough to share this. I mean, this is some deep,
dark shit that I'm sure there are people right now listening that are like,
oh wow, I thought I was the only one who went through that,
But there's a lot of people that have silently suffered, and I think
people like you being willing to talk about it just saves lives. I really
believe that I do. Yeah. So back to penis talk. Yes,
let's jump. So last episode when we spoke, we talked about you know,
you got divorced and the girlfriend, the wife, etc. Et cetera.
Then you are to the point of deciding, yes, I would like
bottom surgery. So you've been researched, seeing different types, You've talked about
that before. At what point did you decide, all right, let's talk
to a doctor. I wanted to say. That was twenty twenty one.
Yeah, and then once you schedule the consult they're like six months out.
So at that time they were six months out and now they're years. So,
by the way, what's the process do you have to anymore have like
a psychiatrist say yes, this person needs this surgery. What's the process.
So when I had my consult so again this was twenty twenty one, I
had to have three letters. I had to have one from a medical professional,
my doctor who prescribed my hormones, stating how long I'd been on testosterone.
I had to have a letter from my therapist saying how long I had
been presenting as mail. And I had to have a letter from an additional
therapist stating that they agreed with the first therapist that I actually did have gender
dysphoria, as this is, you know, a persistent pattern of belief that
I am in the wrong body. So how do you feel? How do
you feel about that? I have no opinion on that at this point,
I haven't thought about it. What's your opinion? Having three people need to
kind of agree with you. You know a lot of people are upset about
that. I personally feel for bottom surgery for gender confirmation surgery because it's considered
an irreversible surgery. You know that it wasn't a bad thing to have multiple
people have to agree that this is actually something I'm dealing with. You know,
it's the same thing with people are saying that miners are getting gender confirmation
surgery. No they're not, they're not. You know, a sixteen year
old cannot go into the doctor's office and be like I want a penis and
have surgery scheduled a week later. Like, that's not going to happen.
You know. For me, it was I had to be in therapy for
at least a year. I had to be on testosterone for at least a
year. I had to be presenting as my desired gender for at least a
year, like those are the minimum requirements. So and that means you're out
socially, you're out at work, you're out at home, you're out to
your friends. You are that gender in all your dealings every day. So
not I just put on address every once in a while, and or you
know, I just put on pants every once in a while. Like,
no, it was not an easy process. And then once I had my
console, so I actually had consoles with two different surgeons for folloplasty and two
different surgeons for metoidoplasty, so I've had four consoles all together. To talk
about there, to look at a bunch of surgical photos which are not at
all pleasant to look at. They're very gory, to hear about complications,
to hear about the preparation, you know, and then it was like,
okay, your BMI has to be under this amount. You have to not
carry your weight in this way. I had to get a stomach surgery done
first to remove the excess skin from pregnancies. Really, so that was back
in August that they had to go into that as like a mini tummy tuck
because the overhanging skin can cut off blood supply to the fallac and create cause
it to fall off, so which you obviously don't want to happen. We
don't want that, right, These are good things. These are good things
to know. I would never would have known anything about this, the things
that you have to go through to be spiteful. And then X husband,
right exactly, you know, because I can't my ex husband and then yeah,
you know, and then I had to do hair removal on my arm
that took almost a full two years. I did laser and electrolysis. So
I have spent over three thousand dollars of my own money to remove hair from
my arm so that it won't grow back ever. That right, because they
use the interior of your arm. So I'll kind of show you here,
So my arm, where my tattoo is, that will actually be inside my
urethra. So they create the urethra out of your inner form and then the
external form will be the exterior of the penis. So it has to be
completely hairless at least on the inside for sure, because any hair that you
can grow in the urethra can cause issues for sure. Yeah, okay,
so you have to go through that. You know, I had to lose
weight. I had to get the surgery to remove the excess skin. Yeah,
Like if you smoke, which I don't. I never been on.
You don't just wake up when morning decide hey, I'm a man, I'm
going to go get a penis. Like, that's not how it works.
That's how some people would watch people to think that it works. And you
know, the kind of like a scare tactic of well, now people just
decide one day they're a boy and they go and they butcher them their bodies
up. That's not how it goes down. Yeah. No, no,
if it were that easy, some people would be very happy. But to
even get on testosterone is not that easy. Like top surgery was two letters.
I had to have two letters to get top surgery. So you know,
it's a lot of meeting with mental health professionals and having to prove who
you are repeatedly. And you know, it's like if someone if your kid
comes to you and they say I feel like a boy, and they're five
or six years old, and you just repeatedly tell them, well you're not,
you're a girl, shut up, go away, you know whatever.
Like I don't know, I feel like that's crushing a part of who they
are. Yeah, and it's not that hard to say, Okay, that's
how you feel, why don't you. You know, if they want to
cut their hair, let them cut their hair. It's hair, it'll grow
back. If they want to wear boys clothes or girls clothes, let them
wear the clothes they want to wear. Their clothes, they're covering their naked
body. Who cares? You know. It's kind of like boy toys and
girl toys. Toys are toys, you know, Like if my kids wanted
to play with toys, they played with whatever they wanted to play with.
I did not care. I just wanted to be quiet. I don't care
what you're playing with. Just be quiet and do it. Yeah. And
I was like, the world is so gendered, and they try to stick
kids in boxes. Kids don't fit in boxes. People don't fit in boxes.
And I think if they just laid off and let kids be who they
are, there are kids who will say their trans until they hit a certain
point and then they're like, actually I don't feel that way anymore, No
harm, no foul, right, you know, they go on with their
life exactly. And on top of that if if the kid truly is trans
and you're telling them their whole childhood that they're not, they're gonna have some
some fucking issues. And if they're not truly trans, they're they're gonna change
back, change their opinion or what have you. Anyway, So just be
supportive and let them figure their shit out, right right, yeah right,
And that's why I've had actually several friends come to me who know that I
transitioned. They've come to me later down the road and said, my child
just came out to me as trans, and I need to know what to
do. These are people who I knew from the church, so people I
grew up with in the church and they're kids have come out to them as
trans, and they've come to me because they know they saw me as a
teenager, and they're like, what do I do? And I'm like,
you listen to them, respect that they know themselves, and let them do
puberty blockers because the only thing that will do is stop puberty. That's it.
It doesn't hurt them, and if they change their mind, they stop
them, and their puberty starts like it's supposed to and they go into their
natural puberty. But if they truly are. Trans It stops their period and
it stops boob growth, and that could save mental health. It's like if
I had been able to do that, Yeah, wow, we know so
much more now than was out you know, years and years and years ago.
And again it's because people talk about it, right. I mean,
if someone could have understood you as a child and you, if you would
have had access to puberty blockers as you're just kind of figuring your shit out,
you likely wouldn't have been punching yourself in the face and cutting yourself.
And you know it would have been so people who are listening now, I
guess you would tell them what you just said, like, love your kids,
support your kid. You know, it's it's only hair, and believe
your kids. Believe your kids, yes, and that's with any kind of
thing they tell you. You know, they're they're queer, they're whatever.
Just believe them. They know themselves better than you do. Even though you're
their parent and you think you know them better than anyone in the world.
No one knows you better than you. And you can raise your kids however
you want to raise them. They're going to do what they're gonna do.
If you love them, you'll at least have the good relationship with them,
so you'll know your child not You know, my parents didn't know me.
They didn't know me until then. Now they know me now years old nine.
Yeah, you know, I think of the relationship I could have had
with them if they'd known me all along. Yes, think of the relationship
they could have had with you if they had known you all along. That's
beautiful. And one thing I often tell people, and this is something that
I heard a long time ago, you know, it was would you rather
have a dead child or a gay child? You know? With my parents,
it was what would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son?
Yeah? Either way? That person you knew doesn't exist anymore, right
that person? Yeah? Absolutely, So you can know the person who is
here, or you can have no relationship with your child at all. Would
you rather? Right? I know? Wow? Huh some deep shit.
Okay, back to this upcoming surgery. So you had to go you had
to be years of a stomach surgery to get rid of any kind of overhanging
flesh from from your baby making days. Uh, letters from doctors stopping your
hair from growing on your arm? What else? What else? Are you
your preparations. Uh, let's see. I mean that's pretty much it for
physical preparations. I guess, you know, getting in shape, you have
to make sure you have good cardiovascular and blah blah blah. But the surgery
itself, you know, is not a picnic. So this is a nine
to twelve hour surgery in the operating room that you're under und stea show.
So starting today, I had to start showering with hippocleans, the antiseptic cleanser.
I have to do that every morning. I have to do it the
night before surgery and the morning of surgery. I'm four days away now,
four days okay, the day before surgery, so Sunday I have to do
a colon cleanse, like is if you're having a colonoscopy, So you get
to do the lovely prep where you're you know, in the bathroom all day
because you have to be completely empty. So yeah, so you're on like
a clear liquid diet. The day before surgery, you're doing the colon cleanse.
The morning of surgery, you know, it's the hospital six hours after
surgery. You're in the ICU the first night because you can end up having
to go back for emergency surgery anytime in the first twelve hours after you're done.
You still don't get to eat for the first twenty four hours after surgery.
Oh, that would be the worst part. Yeah. Yeah, So
at this point it'll be like three days with no solid food by the time
I can finally eat again. And all of all of this to spite your
ex husband. Wow, yes, you see how much I hate him.
So you're in the hospital for five days. You're flat on your back for
the first four so you can't even sit in a chair like you know.
I will have four drains and two catheters coming out of my body. I
will have a wound back on my arm and dressing on my leg. They
have like a cloud, they call it the cloud. It goes around the
pallas to keep it at a forty five degree angle away from your body because
it has to stay in that position to make sure that the blood flow stays
good, that nothing detaches where it shouldn't. And then on day five you
can be discharged from the hospital. We have to stay in California for five
weeks. I have postop visits every week. So this is you know,
you're paying for a rental in California, which is not cheap. Plus your
normal house bills back at home, you know, so it's yeah, it's
a very expensive. The surgery out of pocket is over one hundred thousand dollars.
I'm lucky that my insurance covers a lot of it. But there's still
the travel, you know, all the hair removal, none of that was
covered, all of that stuff, So it's still a lot of money.
It's a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of mental
you know, when you think about being in a hospital bed for five days,
like that's a lot of mental crap. So especially for someone who's active,
like right by you, Yeah, what are your what are your worries?
My worries are mostly recovery, the mental aspect of recovery. Like I've
had twelve surgeries. I think I don't even know a lot of surgeries.
And the main thing I'm concerned about is the length of time I have to
be inactive after this one, Like I can't ride a bike for four to
six months. That's going to be hard. Because they're the vaginectomy, they
cauterize the vaginal canal, so they completely seal it shut. It's cauterized it's
gone, and that's painful that, you know, you can't sit, especially
on a saddle which I have like a racing bike, can't run for at
least, you know, eight weeks. I think it is so basically my
physical activity. And I was one who was going to the gym like five
times a week. So yeah, it's you can't work out, you know,
I can't work like, I can't do my job. So I'm like,
mentally, it's going to be really hard for me. I'm not a
person who can sit and do nothing ever, so I never have been.
I have add really bad, so I'm I always have to be doing something.
So my girlfriend and I are sitting here trying to figure out all these
things to keep me busy while I'm sitting in a bed for four weeks.
Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah that, Yeah, that's gonna be
tough. I can imagine though that you can spend lots of time on Facebook
chatting in our Latter Day Lesbian Podcast discussion group about how you're doing. People
are going to be wanting to check in on you and everything like that.
What do you think, like, when are you going to get to see
it? When do you get to look at your penis. That's a weird
question, but I'm just so curious as soon as you wake up from surgery,
so it's not wrapped up, Yeah, they'll show you. Yeah,
Okay, it's not right, so it'll be I'll be able to see it
right away. And I'm super stoked about that moment, like I wonder.
Yeah, I was. Actually I was talking to our friend Kirsten, and
I told her that I've had several people ask me like, are you sure
this is what you want? And I'm like, I have wanted a penis
since I was five years old, and I'm going to go to sleep and
I'm going to wake up with one, Like this is this is a dream
come true? Like you know? Yeah, so no, I'm I'm one
hundred percent positive that this is what I want, right You're not like,
eh, we'll see they I'll return it. Yeah. So how long how
long post surgery before you can you know, use your penis if you know
what I mean? Yeah, anywhere from six weeks to twelve weeks, depending
on how it heals, if there's any complications that you know, any open
like any seams open that shouldn't open, that kind of stuff. So basically,
once it's all healed and everything, the stitches are gone, then you
can use it. I'm just sorry, I'm so full of questions. Is
there a time, because you know, anytime after a surgery, things kind
of swell and they look kind of like they got beat down. How long
before I think, I guess that your penis will look normal. I guess
that's a bad word to use, but you know what I mean, like
it it's gonna look all So is it gonna yeah? Yeah? They said
the swelling generally can last up to six months, so okay. And unfortunately
this is not just one surgery, so there's actually three surgeries. This is
just the first one. What yeay, carry on, tell them tell me
more so. The next surgery, which is generally six months to a year
later, is when they put the implants in the scrotum so you'll get the
testicles, and they do the glands pasty to create the head of the penis
to make it look more realistic, I guess. And then the third surgery,
which is another six months to a year down the road, they put
in an erectile device. So there's two different kinds you can choose from.
I'm going to go with the one that's inflatable. So what will happen is
they'll remove one of the testicular implants. They put up a bulb in one
of your testicles, and then it has like two inflatable rods that go through
the penis itself, and you can pump the testicle and it'll actually blow up
the rods so you can get an erection and use it. Gotcha, gotcha,
I've heard about I've heard about that before. Yeah. And then we
also you can get medical tattooing so it looks completely relate. They'll talk to
the veins on, they'll change the skin color so it would pass one if
someone were to see it, like in a locker room. Ah wow,
that's okay, that's cool, because I mean, you know, that's that's
probably a concern for people as well. I would think it's like, am
I am I gonna look weird? Right? If so, if I'm in
a locker room or if I'm peeing in the urinalal and someone glances, like
because you don't want you don't want to continue your life feeling like do I
pass right? Right? Yeah? Like I'm finally to the point now where
I'd never get missgendered like ever, right, But I do worry, you
know, like if I were naked in a locker room, that would be
a different story obviously. So yeah, you know, like when I go
to the gym or even in public, I still hardly of we'll go into
the bathroom unless it's like an emergency, because I just am extremely uncomfortable going
into a men's restroom. So yeah, I'm hoping that will dissipate as right.
You know, so you plan on doing all the tattoos and everything.
Yeah, yeah, I plan on doing That's cool. So I'm looking at
like a three year process from That's what I was. I was trying to
do the math in my head, and I suck at that. So it's
it's not again, It's not you decide one day, I'm a dude,
you go get surgery next week, and then you know, three weeks later,
you're healed up and you're living as a land like this is this is
a big ass process. This is a huge undertaking. Wow, I didn't
I didn't know it was three years. I didn't know the extra surgeries obviously.
Like I'm sure so many people have learned so much from listening to this
podcast, not just about you, but about the process of you know,
getting the surgery. Sorry, I'm kind of just like in a daze right
now, thinking of like taking it all in, like wow. So then
they do this and then there's the pumped part and then three years and that's
amazing. Yeah, it's definitely a process and to see where you came from.
Yeah, yeah, wow. Sorry, I'm almost speechless and that's hard
for me, and I'm just like taking this all in. It's incredible.
Someone note that on the calendar right, Shelley was speechless. It won't last.
It won't last. Don't worry. So if people who are listening,
who are in the situation that you were back when we met, back when
you started listening to podcasts, what kind of advice would you give. Never
put off being yourself to make a partner, family, kids, whatever,
happy, because it doesn't. That's what I've learned. It doesn't make them
happy when you're not happy with yourself. When you can't love yourself, you
can't be a good partner, you can't be a good parent, you can't
be a good child to your parents. Like you know, if you hate
who you are are, you can't love anyone. Else, So it actually
was more damaging for me to keep When I thought I was doing it to
make them happy, it actually made everyone more miserable. So it's better to
just accept who you are and live your truth, and if people are meant
to be in your life, they will deal with it and they will come
around. So speaking of coming around, how's your family dealing with the fact
that you're having surgery? Do they all know? Is it? They are
actually good? Now? Wow? They all know. We actually talked about
it at Christmas and for my birthday this last year, my mom gave me
a card that said, son, today's your day. I hung it on
the wall in my bedroom because that was the first time she called me her
son. Wow. So yeah, so my family is they're all awesome now
they've come Yeah, that is amazing. People people change, they do not
everyone, they don't, but give give them a chance. By you being
yourself, that gives them a chance to actually kind of like rise to the
occasion and love more purely and more deeply, you know, instead of I
feel like when you're pretending to be someone you're not to try to make them
happy, they're not actually loving you. They're loving who they want you to
be, which to be is kind of fake ish, it's very it has
its limits well, And one thing I see a lot, especially in the
church, is that people think they can't cut off their family. Like,
it's not okay to cut off your family. It is absolutely okay to take
a step back from people who hurt you and say things that you know,
if they refuse to respect who you are as a person and respect your truth,
it is perfectly fine for you to take a step back and say,
like, you know what, I don't need to have you in my life
if you can't respect who I am. Absolutely like, you do not have
to stand there and be abused by people, No, because they're your family,
it's not required. Well, and when you stand there and accept the
abuse, there's really no need for them to change because it's exactly But when
you set a boundary, then it puts the ball. Well, first of
all, you've protected yourself, and then it puts the ball in their court
where they have to decide am I really going to love my child or am
I going to say well whatever then and a lot of parents are really going
to love their child. They really are, Like your parents have come around,
my parents came around. My family came around. Not everyone's parents and
family will I'm not saying that everyone. This is all you know, kumba
yaf for everyone now, but do what's best for you and let people make
the decisions if they're going to truly love you, and they just might you
know. Yep. Yeah. How are your kids with everything? They're good,
They're good. My daughter actually calls me her dad now wow, but
she doesn't have a relationship with her biofather, so that's kind of you know.
And she did it because it actually started because she was babysitting this little
girl who was eight, and I video chat with my grandbabies every day because
they're four and two and they're just so I video chat with them every day.
And the little girl asked, my daughter, who are you talking to?
And my daughter was trying to stop for a second because she realized,
you know, this guy with a beard deep boys talking to, you know,
and she's like, oh, it's my dad. So that just kind
of and then it just stuck. So cool. And Katie, the four
year old, is very obsessed with what genitals people have right now because she's
ata ache, you know, So she asked her dad if I she's like,
does Lola have a penis like daddy or vagina like mommy? And her
dad was like, Lola has a penis like daddy, which I was very
grateful for because he is very LDS as well. So but you know,
they were like, we don't want to confuse her, and you're a boy.
That's all she sees. So you know, good good. So they've
all been amazing mysef. It's been amazing from the get go. You know,
both my kids are just awesome. So that was never a problem.
That's great. I love that. I love that. Well. Is there
anything you want to add? By the way, I will be having you
on again post surgery so we can talk about it because everyone's going to know
how did it go? Send pictures? I'm just kidding. I'd probably get
blocked from Facebook inappropriate content, Yeah for sure. Yeah. Is there any
questions that that's right? Yes? Let me let me pull up this question
really quickly. Have a question for us and about what kind of thoughts he
had and what research he did before he chose a surgeon and a method for
surgery relevant for both top and bottom. I wish all the best for next
week and It's great to see on social media how happy he is with his
transition and new body. Lots of love from Denmark. So you got some
Denmark fans. Yeah, how did you try to choose your surgeon? Let's
let's answer that one. Yeah. Yeah, So I had two different surgeons
that I was debating between, which is OHSU that's the medical training hospital here
in Oregon, and the Bunk Clinic, which is the group I ended up
going with. They're down in California. The reason I chose the Bunk Clinic
is because they have a one percent complication rate for foloplast They've been doing only
folloplasty surgeries for ten years, so this is what they specialize in. Their
team of surgeons specializes in it, and one percent complication rate for this type
of surgery is phenomenal. You know, generally you hear of much higher complication
rates. Plus, I met both doctor Watt and doctor Chen, who are
my two surgeons. They both have awesome bedside manner. They're just incredibly the
way they talk to you. They do not talk to you like you're stupid.
They don't talk to you like they have to explain everything. It's what
do you want to know, okay, do you want to see photos of
that? You know, like they make sure you know all the risks of
course going in. But I never felt stupid to them, like they respected
what I wanted. They said, we can definitely do that, you know,
and they'll be upfront with you if they can't do it for whatever reason.
So I just like I liked their bedside manner. I talked to a
couple other surgeons where I just didn't really like how they talked to me,
Like, you know, I've done a lot of research, so I was
like, I don't need you to tell me what I need for my body,
Like I know what I need for my body, I need you to
tell me if you can work with that or not. That's kind of how
I went into it. Got it, So got it? That's great.
So just meeting the doctors and knowing their their stats as far as there being
any issues after the surgery, that's cool. So that just you just felt
comfortable, like go with your gut right, Yes, that's yeah. And
I'm on a bottom surgery board on Facebook, so you can see how people's
experiences were with different surgeons, and that really helped as well, you know,
because everyone who had surgery with this particular group was always happy with how
it went. The bedside manner, they office staff, the billing like everything.
It was smooth, whereas other surgeons you need to read horror stories and
it's like, you know, I had this complication and they wouldn't return my
calls, you know, like that kind of stuff. I don't want that.
That's not something you want to hear when you have a surgery that involves
genitals. No, no, yeah, you know, especially if you're in
another state right where it's like you can't just go to your family doctor,
you know, like and you can't go to any old r when you've had
gender confirmation surgery and be like, I'm having this complication because they have they
might not have any clue. Well, right, they have doctors there.
Well, they will try and put catheters where they shouldn't. They have doctors
you know that will think that because your trans you botched your own body.
So you can just deal with it, like you know. So, yeah,
it's definitely important to do your research into how they respond to different things.
Oh, this has been a great interview. I still have ten million
questions, but I'm going to save those until I get you back on again
after the surgery. Anyone who has questions or comments or whatever, feel free
to send in an email. I will put the email with the show notes,
and gosh, we just wish you the best. I know you're gonna
sail through this. You've been through so much. And to see you just
happy and excited in just plowing ahead, I fucking love it. I love
you. I just am just in awe. You're amazing. Gosh, thanks
for coming on. Oh thanks for having me. Course, you know,
I enjoy I've enjoyed the podcast from the beginning. I think that you have
done amazing things for, you know, all the Mormons out there that we're
trying to figure out how to deconstruct the religious upbringing and how to deal with
dating for the first time and all that fun stuff that you know, we
kind of missed out. I sure did growing up. So yeah, so
it's definitely this podcast has helped a lot of people. And I've seen the
letters that pour in, you know, when they had the letter episodes,
and listening to all the people that you changed lives for, and I thought,
yeah, I'm definitely down to be a part of that. So I
can help someone then yay, thank you. I appreciate that. All right,
I guess this is time for me to wrap it up and try to
remember again how to wrap it up. Say thank you Dan for leaving it
in Dan and Extension Audio. He is my badass editor in chief, actually
the only editor. I don't do editing because I got I got seven kids
in like twelve jobs, so I don't have the time. Again, thank
you Austin for coming on and I will be recording more episodes soon. Also,
always remember steer clear of cults because they are no joke. Talk you
later. Hi. Everyone,