Welcome for Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO
news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your
host, Alejandro Rohan. Thank you, mister Bob Dean. He's got such
a relaxing, mellow voice. I hope I'm one of the relaxing mellow old
men and not one of the grouchy ones who's just mad at everything and little
kids running around them all around when I get that age. Hello and welcome
to Open Minds Radio. This is Alejandro Rojas and we have a great show
today. Our guest is Kathleen Martin, so this is going to be fun.
Another guest that we haven't had on before, and another guest that is
speaking at our incredible UFO Internet UFO Congress. And Kathleen is very important for
many many reasons in this field. First of all because she's the niece of
Betty and Barney Hill, Betty and Barney Hill being the first abduction story to
hit the news and one of the most credible ones. And she'll tell us
all about that and the details and some of the debunking that's gone on and
why it doesn't hold any water. She has also written a book about that
with Stanton Friedman, so we'll talk about that book. Another reason she's so
important is because she was a big part of the Mutual UFO network for so
long. She was actually their director of field Investigator training for quite some time.
In fact, she's the one who graded my investigator test and passed me.
And I promise I did not slip her any money. I just passed
it right off the bat. I'm that good. Also, she's continued to
be a researcher in this build. She's actually retired from her move On position
and has gone on to write other books. In fact, most recently she
wrote a book called Science Was Wrong, also with san Friedman. This one
more focused on the historical references to how science thinks they have it right and
they find out they have it wrong. Pretty much every it seems like outstanding
theory eventually gets put on its ear as they make discoveries to find out,
Oops, I guess we had that completely wrong. Surprise, surprise. She
also, in her experience with investigating the Betty and Barney Hills case, has
done a lot of research on abductions and has some interesting opinions regarding the use
of hypnosis, and also, of course some of the Harvard studies about false
memories and dreams and sleep paralysis and all of this stuff. So it's going
to be a very very interesting show. I'm very very excited about it.
Also, we've gotten a great increase in YouTube subscribers, Thank you very much,
and continue to go ahead and subscribe to those. We have a video
up now with it's kind of a little trailer of the DVD. I think
I told you about that last time of our investigations that you can buy at
our website. So if you want to see what that's all about, go
to YouTube, go to Open Minds TV on YouTube and you'll be able to
see a little trailer that shows you what that's all about. And in UFO
Congress News, before we get into other news, I want to let you
know that some of you may have found that when you call a hotel,
they're already booked. I think I told you a little bit about that last
week. So the main hotel is booked up, which is awesome because we're
getting so many people, and now we're starting to fill a second hotel that's
the Comfort in Fountain Hills. Comfort is their specialty, so you're going to
be comfortable. It's a wonderful place. It's right around the corner, and
they have a free shuttle that takes you to the event. So just come
on over in the morning and come party with the rest of us. Come
party with Santon Friedman and Kathleen Martin and all of the speakers, and we'll
have a lot of fun. So comfort In is a place. You can
find more information on our website, or you can actually call the radison and
they'll give you information about the comfort In At least that's what they told me
this morning. They're going to start doing. But otherwise, as usual,
the best thing to do is listen to Open Minds Radio to stay up to
date and at all that is going down regarding the UFO Congress. So we're
very excited. Like I mentioned before, we're taking over the whole town of
Fountain Hills and this is like, you know, a fancy area outside of
Scottsdale, which is known nationally as a fancy area. So it's just gonna
be so much fun and you're gonna feel fantas So you're going to feel like
a fancy upologist. The home of the fancy upologists. So moving on UFOs
in the news. There has been a lot of news this week, as
there is every week. We've been keeping up on the news and you can
see that at Openminds dot tv. And one person in particular who keeps up
on the news. He's very diligent about this, and then he brings that
news to us every week to tell us all about it. Very insightful,
very intelligent. And now he's got a fojok going on, so very stylish
as well. And that's Jason McClellan. Hello Jason, Hello Alejandro, and
greetings everyone. This is your Open Minds news breed for Monday, January tenth,
twenty eleven. We're just more than a week into the twenty eleven year
and New Year's Eve always results in several UFO reports for many reasons. First
of all, you have fireworks being launched and those can be mistaken for UFOs.
And second, you have more people looking up at the fireworks, so
their eyes are up but the sky, making it more likely that they'll notice
something strange in the sky. And the state of Florida was a good example.
This past New Year's Eve. There were multiple reports across the state of
strange lights in the sky. Many witnesses described seeing floating red or orange lights,
and as has become pretty common, many of these reports have been dismissed
as Chinese lanterns. One couple who witnessed the strange life on New Year's Eve
said they were sure the lights were from Chinese lanterns because they have launched Chinese
lanterns many times themselves. They explained, if you don't know what the thing
is, you're going to think. At the UFO, a grandmother and her
granddaughter found a down Chinese lantern and Ellington, Florida, and the media was
quick to push that as proof that the lanterns were to blame for all of
the sightings. However, the lantern that was discovered was discovered two days prior
to New Year's Eve. Yeah. Well, and of course we've launched them
ourselves, so we know what's going down. I don't know if you're going
to talk about that later. I'll hold on to that a little bit of
information. I'm not going to go too much into it, but yeah,
I mean, certainly, after seeing how Chinese lanterns look in the sky,
how they behave in the sky, you know, depending on the brightness of
the sky at the preticular time they're in the sky, they can look like
different things. But you know, a lot of these sightings with how they're
described the movements, people say these things are making in the sky rapid turns,
different things like that. Chinese lanterns. Just I won't say they can't
do it. Yeah, I'll say most of the time not likely as the
Chinese lantern. Well, let me ask you this, because since we've launched
them ourselves. Now we did this a few days ago, I think most
of these sightings are actually less likely Chinese lanterns than I did prior to us
launching them. I agree with you one hundred percent because of the distance.
And you know, like you said, New Year's Eve, fourth of July
is also a period of time where there's a lot of sightings. And interesting
enough, during Stephen Bill, there was a sighting on New Year's Eve in
San Diego and that was covered in the local news. You would have thought
that that would have been a big deal. They even got some video of
these lights blowing across the sky for a period of time, and these were
like engineering students in San Diego. But instead these anomalists lights which nobody ever
got pictures or video of, and Stephenville became the big story. Chinese lanterns,
there's certainly something we're looking a lot at. You know, I'm definitely
fascinated by them, and I'm interested in doing more testing on myself, just
because so many sightings now there are a lot of orange and red lights in
the sky, and Chinese lanterns become the weather balloon. Yeah, you know,
everybody pushes it off very quickly and goes, oh, that's the Chinese
lantern, but they don't look at the time these things are in the sky
and say, well, Chinese lanterns don't stay in the sky how long?
And just different behaviors. I won't go too much into it. We're working
on an article for the magazine right now, but definitely something I'm looking more
into because I think a lot of these things get brushed away too quickly.
And different colored orbs, especially red and orange and white have been common throughout
a UFO history. That's right, as things that have been seen for decades.
Here's another example. A UFO was spotted over Horrorboro, England, last
Sunday night. The witness describes seeing an orange light that seemed to get bigger
and then turned to its right. It went higher at incredible speed and disappeared
into space. Several mysterious lights in the sky have been reported in Harborough,
and most have been dismissed. This Chinese lanterns. And again, as one
would suspect, even a Chinese lantern isn't going to go higher at an incredible
speed. It can certainly go higher, and as you and I have personally
witnessed, because of different air currents and different altitudes, the wind can sweep
it up and push it to the side and push it back to the other
side, and then it can go down quickly. But these sharp sweeping motions
and accelerating and jumping, increasing in altitude, and just very strange behavior not
typical of a Chinese lantern. Someone actually asked what a Chinese lantern is.
That's just so very good question, Yeah, because I don't know if we've
actually described exactly what it is. It's just kind of a large round light
paper and in the middle of this is a little wire array holding something that
has a flame. In the case that what we did were these probably the
safest. It's like this little cardboard stuff that has some sort of flammable fluid
on it, and you like this and it heats up inside of this paper
and it floats around and then falls down. And these ones were biotegrater,
but these were probably the safest kind. They're definitely the safest. They have
a big problem in the UK with varying kinds of Chinese lanterns where these things
come down and the fuel source used on them causes fires, it harms livestock.
So a lot of places have called for a ban on these things,
and there have actually been press releases and warnings issued by various emergency organizations in
the UK and entrepreneurs over there warning people asking people not to launch Chinese lanterns
because they're being mistaken for warning players. Yeah, there are so many different
varieties of Chinese lanterns, and that's another thing that makes it difficult to really
analyze the behavior of Chinese lanterns as a whole, because there's so many variations
on what a Chinese lantern is. And some people do the homemade variety and
take a candle and wrap some teleophane around it and tie it to a balloon.
I mean, there's so many different things in different fuel sources. So
until we test them all, we don't know one hundred. But my good
buddy Dan Okie and the chat had a comment, and I want to ask
you, Jason, because I know you did more research in the types of
Chinese lanterns. He says, there there's an expensive type that will totally go
into space. I wouldn't doubt that. That's probably more along the lines of
the varying research balloons, weather balloons, things you can get for these.
I forget what they're there. Dan should know he worked at a weather station
for a while. I think light it's a weather man. There's a term
for it, and I know it's it's very big as a hobby and a
lot of schools have have hobby groups that do this. They launched these pretty
sophisticated balloons that have HD cameras and GPS and and uh so there there are
tons of variety. I'm sure there's because I know some of these Chines,
the manufacturers of the of the Chinese lanterns. You can get custom made Chinese
lanterns and they'll make them enormous sized balloons. Did A lot of places really
say are unsafe, so they won't allow you to launch them. But these
people will make enormous balloons for you. You can have your logo or favorite
sports team printed all over them, and I bet those suckers will go for
a while. Yeah, they'll go very high. If you've been wanting to
travel to space. There are now seventy six travel agencies in the United States
that have been authorized to sell tickets for Virgin Galactic space flights, and there
are countless others other travel agencies in countries around the world. Virgin Galactic has
announced a ticket price of two hundred thousand dollars and they say each flight will
be able to carry six passengers and two pilots, and they plan to offer
three flights a day, five times a week. But if you're living in
the twenty first century like I am, and you want to book your own
flight rather than going through a travel agent, Yeah, who uses travel agents
anymore? Will that show up like on cheap tickets dot Com. It's possible.
I would think they would need help pushing these tickets, But they haven't
had a flight yet. Passenger flights haven't started. But Virgin started selling tickets
in two thousand and five, and they've got a pretty hefty list and people
have to put down at twenty percent deposit and start going through all of their
training and everything, probably helping their funding a lot. They're getting a lot
of upfront, absolutely, but you know, for people who don't want to
use the travel agent, Virgin Galactic is just like any other airline. You
can go to Virgin Galactic's website and book your ticket right now. I do
that. I do mine on my Little south West app on my iPhone.
Hopefully they'll have an app, Virgin Galacti. By the time they're ready to
launch, they probably will have an app. If they don't already have an
app. Probably. I think it's incredible if how you know, prices always
go down once technology hits How many years is it going to be till these
are really affordable. There will be a time where these tickets are going to
be very affordable. And if they're starting in the next year or two,
who knows, that could be ten years from now where it's going to be
maybe a couple thousand bucks. It wouldn't be surprised if it is sooner than
that. With this, the so many companies all competing to get into space
and do the space tourism thing. I think the market is really going to
drive the price down pretty fast. Cool, not as fast as I want,
But I'd like to not have arthritis by the time I get into space.
Maybe it'll help relieve our arthritis. It could. I want to be
weightless. Here's an interesting story from the past week. Birds, fish,
and other wildlife have been showing up dead by the thousands around the world.
Tests have been done on the animals and their environments to determine if disease or
toxins played a role, but none have been discovered so far. Stress,
weather, indigestion, and clumsiness have all been offered by experts to explain the
strange deaths, but there doesn't seem to be any definitive answer in any of
the cases. Some officials have been baffled by the mysterious death while others have
claimed that these deaths are natural and happen regularly and surprise. Recently wrote a
story on this, and when I was researching it, I couldn't believe how
many cases have happened in the past. I was looking for something that just
happened last week, and I was finding things from nineteen ninety seven where one
hundred tons of fish or one hundred thousand tons of fish have died. A
million fish died, and it happens in these places all the time. It
was a particular I think it was in Louisiana where a bunch of birds died
on a freeway and people there were saying, oh, yeah, it happens
all the time. Where he used to seeing the dead birds, not usually
in its number, but it happens all the time. I mean, I've
been paying attention to paranormal for quite some time now, and it always has
been a fairly regular thing here and there, but not so much as right
now. I mean, right now, to have all these different types of
species all over the world, it's happening a lot more than ever before.
They say it could be temperature changes. Now they're saying it could be a
change in the magnetic who knows, but there's definitely I mean, a lot
more of these deaths happening than I've ever seen. Well, it's really fascinating
with what species are affected. You know, in a lot of these situations
it's just one species. Yeah, So you know, the officials were looking
at poisoning or something or freezing, you know, weather issues but just one
species in a river, one species of fish would turn up dead. Yep,
really weird. I mean, why do you see on one beach it
was a bunch of crabs, right? Why just the crabs? Why not
the other sea life out there? Just to crabs? Very strange. And
you know, this has been getting a lot of attention. And because UFOs
and UFO related stories have been getting a lot of attention, you know,
as you mentioned previous stories, this has come up to people suggesting that cloaked
UFOs invisible UFOs possibly could be to blame because in a lot of the bird
cases, officials, after performing autopsies, find out that these burned birds suffered
physical damage. They like ran into something or something hit them or surprise them,
causing internal bleeding. I wonder if they feel bad. You know,
you're in your UFO cloaked up there, hanging out and all of a sudden,
tump tump, tump, tum tump, and you run through the window
and oh, go around. I don't know if you've ever done that in
your car, but it's the worst feeling in the world. Luckily I haven't
hit a bird. Oh it's awful, yeah, but yeah, I can't
imagine hitting a thousand birds at once. Yeah. I hope that's not the
case. They need to get one of those little sound things, the little
whistle things that make sure that the animals stay away from your vehicle when you're
driving. You can give them that suggestion when you meet them. Yeah.
A recent article on MSNBC highlighted the fact that UFOs and related topics are very
popular with most people. In highlighting their most popular space stores from last year,
many related to UFOs were on the list, including the release of Leslie
Keane's best selling book UFOs, Generals, pilots and government officials Go on the
Record, and NASA's teasing press release that caused many to speculate whether or not
NASA was going to announce the discovery of aliens. Very cool. I mean
it shows the interest. The interest I think in this build is so secret
a lot of people. When you're you believe in this stuff, you feel
like, oh man, no one else believes in this. They're going to
make fun of me, and and you know, people tease me all the
time. But even those people that are out there kind of teasing people doesn't
necessarily mean they don't believe they're just not comfortable enough to say, yeah,
dude, I believe in aliens too. You know, it's more fun to
tease people about it if they say they've seen a UFO, but not that
I do that, but others do. There's a lot more. The poles
always show. There's you know, nearly fifty thirty to fifty percent. The
poles always show sometimes more that people believe in this stuff. Right. A
new station in South Texas reported a story about a mystery missile caught on camera
in Padre Island last week. I'm sure you remember the mystery missile that the
media went buzzing about off the coast of LA that was just at the end
of last year. The witness captured video of the object and its trail on
his phone. Skeptics were quick to dismiss the object as an airplane, but
the witness in the news station bull stated that the object was moving too fast
to be a plane. But you know, this one looked even less like
a missile than the LA one. It looked just like an airplane contrail.
And that's what a lot of people were saying that it. Oh, clearly
it is because you can tell it's not moving that fast. But again,
on a cell phone camera, you can't tell that much. Yeah, it's
really hard to tell, especially when you have eyewitnesses there, and I think
they had multiple eyewitnesses, right, So we're saying that it was a missile,
so you know nothing. Your cell phone's just not going to catch much.
But your eyes can see a lot more because of course, when we
see a jet in the air, you can stare at it and see its
wings and stuff. But who knows these mystery missiles and it's not uncommon for
other parts of the world. It's more uncommon for the United States, but
you know, there's unclaimed missiles flying around unfortunately in Eastern Europe and stuff all
the time. The thing about these mystery missile cases that is the most alarming
to me is when the reporters try to tract information about it, they call
the FAA, they contact the military bases, and no one can tell them
what it is. Yeah. I think it's ridiculous. It makes no sense.
I mean, I've experienced on UFO investigations calling the fa and saying,
hey, you know, there's a security guard who just got back from Iraq
and he says, something weird was flying over the mountain and it's on the
same we're jets by in this area, and oh, you know, we
don't take those kind of calls called the UFO Reporting Center. Well, come
on, aren't you in charge of the safety of these commercial planes? Why
are you not paying attention to this stuff? It doesn't make any sense.
It's awful. They're very confusing cases. I mean, when I see them,
I kind of unfortunately, I kind of shrug and obviously it's an airplane
contrail. But then when you dig deeper, the answers just aren't there.
Yeah, you think it would be something simple, they'd go, oh,
yeah, that's our delta flight whatever from exactly, But no, they have
no idea. I don't know what that was. Weird, man, This
is a cool story from today. Scientists are suggesting that world governments coordinate a
plan of action for when contract contact with extraterrestrial life is made. This recommendation
is stated in a recent extraterrestrial themed edition of Philosophical Transitions of the Royal Society
A. The suggestion is made that the UN should come up with an established
plan for dealing with any contact with extraterrestrial life. Probably remember back in September
of last year, when rumors swirled about the UN appointing a UFO ambassador,
a rumor the UN quickly denied. Unfortunately, as has been previously stated by
Stephen Hawking, some critics are suggesting that Earth needs to prepare for the worst.
Simon Conway Morris, a professor of evolutionary paleo biology at Cambridge University,
explains that light somewhere else will most likely have similarities to life on Earth,
including tendencies toward violence and exploitation. I really get upset by all of these
asceptions that aliens are mean. I think it's really funny because well, because
a lot of astrophysicists have we talked about that before, don't believe that.
But there are some that do. But the physicist and the conventional scientists are
the ones to jump to conclusions first. They seem to be the least scientific
of everyone, especially the bigger they are. Of course, they have these
gigantic egos where they think because they look at the stars every time. And
what's interesting is a lot of the fundamental theories related to their own science.
For instance, dark matter is highly controversial whether it exists or not. A
lot of them, oh yeah, dark matter exists and here what it is,
and none of that is proven at all. It's still a mystery.
And they find more and more mysteries all the time, such as black holes
being created in places they shouldn't have and they don't understand why they're in proximities,
or this that we don't understand anything related to very much to the cosmos.
And these guys are just talking about wild speculation, huge speculation. And
I'm sure if I actually listen to one of these people give their full talk
of whatever makes sense to them, I might not be. So I don't
know upset what they're just jump there, but I forget. I don't have
his name, but one of the scientists there actually said that, oh,
when extraterrestrials come, they're going to look like us. Well, how do
you know that? What are you basing that on? Yeah? And a
lot of times they will do that without justifying or their statements and saying,
well, according to this research or research, or we ran a model to
show this or that, just throwing stuff out there, right, these crazy,
crazy scientists. I've got a little time left, so I think I'll
throw in some WikiLeaks news. Oh yeah, a Norwegian news site called Austin
Postin. Austin Postin has posted links to alleged WikiLeaks documents that reference UFOs.
Well, there is no earth shattering information in these documents, there are some
interesting mentions of government officials in Russia and Japan who feel their government should be
investigating UFOs. These documents don't seem to be on the wikileak's website, but
that doesn't mean they aren't authentic. Well, actually, and I have an
update interesting enough. I just got an email from Grant Cameron, who originally
sent that to us from PRESIDENTIALUFO dot com, and he was able to find
some references where there's kind of this little battle going on so often. Postin
the Norwegian Greek kuite said they got a hold of the WikiLeaks cables and they're
going to release them all they want, whenever they want, because they're upset
that as Songe, the guy who owns wiki leaks, is holding information back
and only releasing it when he wants to. And the Guardian newspaper, which
we talked about before, responded and said, no, we've had those WikiLeaks
since way back when, and a song just never told us when to release
anything. We release whatever we want, whenever we want. And of course
we had the earlier story about the Guardian saying the McKinnon story was the only
thing that they found in the wiki leaks cable. They must not assured search
too carefully because they missed these two that the Norwegians found. But it was
confirmed that the Norwegians really do have the files, the whole two hundred and
fifty something thousand, and they found a couple more UFO references. Of course,
these are like they're little references, like the Japanese story was in the
news three years ago, and so they were referencing a news article. We
already covered that or back then UFO think covered that. But and then the
other one with a Russian It was like an interview where some guy says,
why aren't you guys investigating paranormal anymore? Right, and they kind of said,
well, we don't think there's anything to it, but someone I mentioned,
yeah, that we probably should or something like that. So they are
little mentioned. But but you know, this controversy, I guess is to
be expected. I mean that's sort of the age we live in, and
you know, anybody can come up with documents and say, oh, well,
these are real documents, and we're releasing them because no one else will.
I mean, and even now WikiLeaks. You know, if some if
wiki leaks releases something, everybody is just accepting it as fact. Yeah right,
And and the what this all confirms so is that the WikiLeaks are kind
of already out there. People have them, a lot of news organizations have
all of them. And so I mean, if there were any gigantic revelations,
we see them soon. In fact, the Norwegians are really going after
some where they think are unethical German dealings that they're focusing on. I have
nothing to do with UFOs, but yeah, I mean, and remember these
are just communications between embassies and embassy officials. That doesn't mean they're all substantiated.
And then these UFO cases, they are usually references to news articles.
So these news articles are the ones to substantiate whether or not these stories are
real. And we probably have all those these news articles on our website yep,
or have had them correct yep. We are just like we're really good
at staying on top of it, do our best. Yeah, that is
it for the news. You remember to check out these stories and more at
Openminds dot Tv, your source for UFO related news. I'm Jason McClellan,
your Open Minds News correspondent, and you've been briefed back to you, Alejandro.
All right, Thank you, Jason, another wonderful job. And I
want to thank Grant Cameron for sending us this information on these WikiLeaks so we
can be up to date on what's going on on that front. And you
know what, tomorrow I'll post something that he sent me regarding all of this
back and forth with The Guardian and the often Buston and so you can have
all that information as well. And I also want to thank all of our
good friends at the comic convention that we went to this weekend, the Arizona's
Amazing Comic Festival. It was really fun, a lot of funny people,
and in fact, a lot of them brought up a lot some of these
stories. One gentleman brought up that he used to live in LA and that
it wasn't that uncommon for people to see these stray missiles. And of course
these could be tested in Southern California because Southern California has a lot of high
tech stuff going on. They have some of the big bases there where they
do. In fact, US Space Command has a lot of their research going
on down there in southern Calor, so that's what it could be. That
could be what they saw on the outside of La the mystery missile. But
still it was interesting for this the guy to come up and talk about the
South Patre missile and then you know, the LA missile and that he has
seen that kind of thing before. We had a lot of friends that joined
us there and it was a lot of fun. Otherwise, you know the
stories, I think we covered a lot of the stories. The other stories
that are going on that we didn't talk about really are related to movies.
A lot of alien movies are coming out very soon. New trailers on these
movies. Of course. There's a comedy named Paul coming out very soon that
had a trailer and it's kind of these two guys chasing UFOs, these UFO
hunters, and they have some kind of little alien friend they cruise around with
or something. But it's a comedy. There's also a new trailer for a
movie coming out out here, I Am Number four, these aliens being hunted
down and killed. So a lot, of course these movies are mostly pretty
negative and scary and bad aliens coming to get us. So hey, someone
mentioned in the chat also V on TV, and that's going on. They
asked me if I like it. I gotta admit I did a review on
V in the magazine. I didn't like it very much. It's really slow
and it's kind of convoluted. I think it's kind of like the event.
I wasn't that into that. Disappointed in both, but I really do like
the battle Starticle Galactica. When that came up with the robots, I can't
remember what it's called. That's very cool, Caprica, that's what it's called
on sci Fi. However, I believe we have our guests on the line,
Kathleen Martin. Kathleen, are you there? Yes, I am yes.
I was led to believe the truth that you were there. How are
you doing. I'm doing fun, good good. You sound energetic, which
is good because it sounds like you were just on another radio station just a
little while ago. So you keep very very busy. Yes, I do.
Well. I want to thank you very much for being on the show.
We're very excited to have you at the Congress. And you might have
heard we have people registering like crazy, especially since the new year. The
rooms are booked up in one hotel, we're starting to book up another hotel.
We're going to take over this small little town outside of Scottsdale. It
seems like it's going to be like a tell you ride, but for UFOs,
Well, that's really good news. I'm so happy to hear that.
Yeah, very exciting. We're going to get a lot of people, and
we have a lot of wonderful guests such as yourself there. Well, thank
you, I'm looking forward to it. Well, let's go back and kind
of at least start off a little chronologically, and some of what I've wanted
to ask you about is are things like when you had first heard about your
aunt Betty's experiences, what did you hear and what did you think of it?
Well, actually I first heard about that experience on the day they arrived
home after having it, so immediately I was thirteen years old. My mother
was Betty's sister. They were very close, and Betty called my mother.
I was seated in the same room, so I overheard the conversation. When
my mother hung up the phone, she told me what Betty had said,
and at that time my mother was then calling a neighbor of ours, physicists,
because she and Betty were both concerned that they might have been contaminated by
this craft in such close proximity to their vehicles, and he wanted to know
what to do. So I was there for all of that, and within
a couple of days my family drove down to Betty's in Barnie's house. It
was about twenty miles from my childhood home on the sea coast of New Hampshire.
And that is when I actually had the opportunity to witness the spots on
the trunk of the car, to hear about the scrapes on Barney's shoes,
to actually see that their watchers were no longer working, and to hear some
of the story. And Barney sat in the room with my father and told
him about the non human entity that he had observed on board the craft.
So what did I think. I was amazed, This was totally new.
It was a complete shock, but I had no reason to doubt what my
aunt and uncle said. They had a great deal of respect for them.
They were known within the family as people who were honest and truthful. Now
maybe you can go over then the story and especially what you had heard at
that time, because of course the stories expanded over time, but if you
could go over what had happened to them, okay, just briefly. They
were on their way home from a trip first to Niagara Falls and then up
to Montreal. They decided to drive home during the night, and they were
going to stop at a motel if they grew tired. But Barney worked the
night shift at the post office in Boston, so he didn't think he'd have
any difficulty doing it. He was well rested the night before and in high
spirits, and so he thought he could drive home. When they were south
of Lancaster, New Hampshire, and this is in northern New Hampshire, driving
south on US Highway Route three, the major north south route up there,
Betty spotted a new light in the sky. We were all interested in satellites,
and she thought that it might be a satellite, and she wondered if
maybe it was a falling star at first, but the thing was, it
flew upwards and it was traveling rapidly. She had never seen a satellite before,
so she didn't know how they traveled across the sky. She continued to
watch it, and it grew larger and larger, and this sort of sparked
some curiosity in Betty, and as she watched it over the next twenty or
so miles, it drew closer and closer. She finally was so curious that
she asked Barney to stop the car so that she could actually get out and
look at this thing through binoculars. Fannie was a confirmed skeptic. He was
telling Betty the whole time that, oh, it's just a conventional aircraft.
It's maybe a Piper CoV or a commercial airliner on its way to Montreal,
to the airport up there. But he finally did stop the car for Betty.
She told him that the dog needed to take a walk use the bathroom,
so that was her reason. He didn't particularly want to stop, but
they did, and they got out and they looked at this thing. They
got back in. It appeared to be unconventional. They continued to drive down
the highway. They were approaching a tourist section of New Hampshire down as a
Franconian Notch, and that's where the New Hampshire state symbol, the Old Man
of the Mountain was located. Fell off the mountain. Unfortunately, in two
thousand and three, I think it was. But as they approached Franconian Notch,
this was about four miles south of their first stop, Betty saw the
craft passing over Cannon Mountains. There's an aerial tramway there. There's a tower,
a lookout tower, and with an aircraft light warning light on top of
it in a restaurant. Well, as the craft passed over the top of
that light, the light blinked out, and that's pretty significant because it was
a steady light and it normally wouldn't blink out. So this might be an
indication of electromagnetic interference because that he didn't know it at the time. It
then traveled around to the back of the mountain and came out beside the Old
Man's profile, which was forty eight feet from forehead to chin. Now the
craft stopped beside the profile and Deddy and Varney noticed that it was about one
and a half time the height of the Old Man's profile. At that point
it moved erradically. They got out of the car again. It seemed to
bounce back and forth in the sky. It was traveling in a stairstep pattern,
very perplexing, and it was completely silent, and it seemed to be
rotating. They got back into the car and head itself through Franconia Notch and
came out at the area called Indian Head. And Indian Head is where the
turists, cabins and attractions begin as a more populated area, but they were
traveling at night during the off season. There are a lot of people up
there now during the off season, and there's a much higher population rate up
there than there was nine teen sixty one. There was hardly anyone else on
the road that night Betty and Betty was growing excited. Barney, of course
was driving and watching the road, and Barney thought that Betty really became excited.
He wanted to know what she was so excited about. He started to
look for a place to pull off to the side of the road again,
but before he had the opportunity to find the spot, this craft shifted the
head and stopped in the just to the right of the highway, just to
the right of Ruth three, and it was then several hundred feet in the
air and it rapidly descended towards their vehicle, causing Barney to have to stop
his car right in the middle of the road. Wow. He jumped out
of the car. He got his binoculars and he had his pistol in his
pocket. He grabbed didn't put it in the pocket. It was on the
floor of his vehicle. He had taken it out actually at the first stop
because it was an area where there might have been bears coming out of the
woods. There were picnic barrels there well. On this third stop that they
made, this is the close encounter field, and Bonnie looked at the craft
through his binoculars. Both he and Betty could see that it had stopped approximately
one hundred to two hundred feet above their car. There was a row of
lighted windows. It was a double row of windows on a disc shaped craft.
At first they thought, you know, when they were looked at it,
it threw Franconia notch, and it was far away it appeared to be
cigar shaped, but when it was incredibly close to them they could see that
it was a disc shaped objects. And the object then moved to the adjacent
sea just to the east of the car, and Bonnie walked to it,
leaving Betty in the passenger seat of the car. The car was running,
the headlights were on, and the driver's side door was opened. He walked
to the field, looked through his binoculars and in his first report to Walter
Webb, this is the Nightcap investigator, the astronomer from Hayden Planetarium in Boston.
He told Walter Webb that he had observed non human, strangely non human
beings on board that craft. They were dressed in black, shining outfits,
and he felt very threatened by him, but he was frightened by them.
There was one who held a particular attraction for Bonnie, and he remained at
the window peering down at Bonnie as the others moved all together with the precisions
of Nazi officers. It was the military precision to a panel on the back.
And when they went to that panel, their arms went up and the
craft tipped toward Bonnie, and something started to drop out of the bottom of
it. At the same time, small red lights on each side of the
craft started to telescope out. He became terribly frightened at that point, and
broke pulled the binoculars down away from his face and ran back to the car
in a his almost hysterical condition, telling Betty that they had to get out
of there or they were going to be captured. That was the sense that
he got from this craft. In fact, he told Walter Webb that he
felt he was going to be captured like a bug in a net. That's
what he said. And I quote that from Walter Webb's report written in October
of nineteen sixty one. So then he told Betty to roll down the window
and look up. He thought the craft was directly overhead. It had shifted
again from the field as he was running toward the car. She looked up
and she didn't see anything. She thought the craft had gone. It was
later under hypnosis that she realized that the craft was actually hovering over the car.
She didn't see anything. She didn't see the Wax and Gibbeth moon,
she didn't see the stars in the sky that had been there. It was
all black. She rolled the window back up, and we're going back to
their conscious recall now. She rolled the window back up, and as she
did, she started to hear and Barney started to hear a beeping, buzzing
code like rhythm that seemed to bounce off the trunk of their vehicle. It
was like a mechanical buzzing sound and it caused the car to vibrate. In
fact, Betty touched the metal of the vehicle, wondering if she'd get a
shock from it. It sort of reminded her. The sound sort of reminded
her of the Morse code, and she thought that she wished that she had
known the Morse code, because then she might understand what this was all about.
Barney said that it go ahead. I was going to ask, now,
when she saw Barney head out to the crowd aft or did she see
the craft when when he left the car and moved out of it. Oh?
Yeah, she also saw the craft covering about one hundred feet above their
vehicle. Okay, so she just lost track. It seemed to go over
the vehicle, but when she looked over the vehicle, it wasn't there.
This is when he returned to the car, she looked up above the vehicle.
Now that he's speeding down Route three, and she looked up, oh,
I see. So they took off and then okay, okay, so
they're both back in the vehicle. Yeah, and he's driving. And then
she looked up. Okay, gotcha. They sped away from this thing.
They thought, yes, yes, he was speeding down the highway. He
was looking for another car. He was looking for a police officer. He
wanted to report this thing immediately. So they were driving when that when the
vehicle started vibrating like you were describing. Yes, yes, they were driving
down the highway when the vehicle started vibrating. And then the sort of feeling
this passed through Betty's and Bonnies bodies. This tingling that they felt on the
car passed through their bodies, and they started to feel very relaxed, and
they sort of lost track of time. They stopped talking to each other.
The next thing they remembered they were about thirty five miles down the road.
They had no recollection of what happened in the interim. They remembered at that
point they thought seeing a bright orb in the highway, silhouetted against the trees.
They had vague memories of a roadblock, which was part of their conscious
recollection. They didn't recall where it was or when it happened. And there
was a second series of buzzing or beeping sounds that brought them back to full
consciousness. It is only then that they started talking with each other. They
drove on home, continuing to look out their window for the craft. They
didn't see it again. When they arrived home. Bonnie went into the house.
They checked their watches. Their watches had stopped operating. They reset them,
they rewound them to the house at the time that the house and the
clock stated. They noticed that they arrived home later than they had anticipated.
A couple of months later, when they were talking with Robert Homan and Cebe
Jackson, who were two other investigators on the case, they realized that it
was the full two hours that was missing. They simply couldn't recall the events
that happened in this two hour period. They couldn't recall what they had seen
during this two hour period, and they were not talking to each other.
So what you've just described is then what they called your mother and they told
her about this, and then this is what you all had heard. And
obviously they call the family and to get the family out there. They were
pretty traumatized by this, Yes they were. They were very concerned about this.
But it was so difficult for me as a thirteen year old because I
was sworn to secrecy. This is something that was not okay to talk about,
right. That would be pretty hard because I'm sure, you're very excited
and you want to talk it out. Oh, I absolutely did that.
I was told that I could only talk to family members about it. So
then did they immediately get ahold of researchers and investigators or did this all kind
of how did that happen? Well, on the night they arrived home,
Betty called P's Air Force Base and made the initial Project Blue Book reports.
The following day, Major Henderson called back. He said that there were other
people on the line as well, that their conversation was being recorded, and
so he did an extensive interview with both Betty and Barney, so that was
made immediately. Betty was very curious about what this was that she did see
and Barney saw, so she went to the library. She had a book
written by Major Donald Keito, who was the head of Nicass, and inside
was nycap's address. So what she did was she wrote a letter on September
twenty fifth, nineteen sixty one to Major Keyho describing their experience, saying that
Barnie had seen something that was so sort of traumatic to him that he developed
a mental block, and that they were thinking about seeking out the services of
a confident psychiatrist who could hypnotize Bonnie. So it shows you that immediately the
idea of hypnosis was there to help Barnie with this major keyhole. Then contacted
Walter Webb at the Hayden Planetarium. He worked at the Hayden Planetarium in Boston,
and Walter scheduled an interview with Betty and Barney. He traveled from his
home in Massachusets to their home in Portsmouth, New Hampshire and conducted a six
hour interview with them. That's one different nineteen sixty one. A lot of
this was still pretty new. This is before the Condon Report where Air Force
has stopped investigating. So you had a lot of high level people, you
had a keyhos in the Marines, you have astro or do you have all
these gentlemen who are serious investigators, and it didn't have the kind of stigma
that it has nowadays. There was a lot of serious research going on when
they're trying to figure it out. Back in those days, yes, there
was serious research and there were highly credible competence investigators who seemed to have the
funds to be able to do this research as well. There were university professors
involved in this. Homan and Jackson worked for IBM. Jackson was a senior
engineer and Holman was a technical writer there. Right. And I think one
thing that's important it is just that because I mean, really the next case
to come along there, Walton case, there were still some of those very
high level, credible researchers. But still at this time the Air Force had
already papooed the whole thing, whereas with the Betty and Barney Hill case it
was prior to all of that where you really had kind of a national focus
on these sort of topics. Yes, absolutely, and I think that university
systems was more open to accepting this kind of research, such as doctor James
McDonald did, and such as doctor James Harder did. So you know,
they were highly credible, competent people. So then they started to do the
regression work. Yes, that didn't come until nineteen sixty four. It came
as a result of some physical problems that Barnie was experiencing that seemed to be
tied to the close encounter experience. Okay, they didn't know that at first,
but that was the conclusion in the end. So Barnie was referred to
doctor Benjamin Simon, right, And this is three years after the incident,
and I was just curious when did it hit the media. It hit the
media in October October twenty fifth, nineteen sixty five, through a violation of
confidentiality. It was published in the Boston Traveler newspaper for five nights in a
row. So for you, just your experience as a thirteen year old sixty
one, late sixty one, this all happened a few years go by,
where you at least probably got to have personally the story probably faded a bit,
or was it always for those three years until the regressions happened? Was
it that big story and something that you guys are very stressed about as far
as your family goes. I think that it was a big story in the
family because of the problems that Barney was having, the physical problems and the
fact that he and Betty had what was called doorway amnesia. They could go
up to a certain time and then suddenly they had no recollection of what happened
during the next thirty five miles of travel and the next two hours they found
out. So that was very perplexing. They wanted to find out what happened.
So then three years later they began what sort of physical seven months later
actually okay, when they started the hypnosis less than two and a half years
actually, yes, And it went on for a period of about six months,
the hypnosis and the therapy, so it wasn't just one section session.
And doctor Simon was renowned in his field. He was a neuropsychiatrist. He'd
set up the psychiatric unit as the Mason General Hospital on Long Island, New
York, a three thousand bed unit to treat shell shock victims of World War
Two. He had such a high rate of success in doing this that the
movie Let There Be Light was made about him, starring Doctor Simon. He
was an expert in what he did using hypnotic regression, and that's why Betty
and Varney were referred to him. Another point that is important is he hypnotized
them separately and he reinstated amnesia. At the end of each session. One
would wait in a soundproof waiting room with loud classical music playing to make sure
that nothing was overheard, so they couldn't share ideas. These were independent statements
they made agreed, a very very important point. So then where did they
find when they started the regressions? Well, Eventually, doctor Simon let them
begin to recall what they had stated under hypnosis. He permitted them to recall
whatever they could that wasn't too troubling to them, and they discussed this with
him over and over again. And I also want to state that doctor Simon
didn't just quest in each of them one time about this entire trip. He
went to sections of the trips over and over again and questioned them over and
over again, trying to fill in information, trying to see if he could
trip them up, trying to see if they made inconsistent statements, and they
when they both came out with a very similar story about a UFO abduction,
he challenged their statements over and over again, trying to find a logical explanation
for this. That he couldn't possibly believe that they had actually been abducted by
aliens, right, And he was so careful it sounds like, you know,
going over and over each incident, making sure they didn't remember what happened,
to show that their memories weren't tripped up or something new was made up
or fabrid in their mind. That it's probably I don't know of any other
case that where the therapist or the administrator of the hypnosis has gone to that
length, do you because you've done a lot of research in this Yes,
maybe not as many sessions. Doctor Simon really conducted a lot of sessions.
But Walter Webb was an excellent, excellent investigator, and he wrote the book
The Encounter at buff Ledge. This was an investigation of a young couple.
One was sixteen, when was nineteen. They both worked at the buff Ledge
Girls Camps on Lake Champlain and they had a close encounter with full conscious recall
and partially conscious recalled by one of them about observing non human entities on board
the craft. They had a period of missing time, very interesting, and
he actually found a hypnotherapist who worked individually with them, so they had no
chance to communicate. In fact, at the end of that summer, and
it was nearly the end of the summer when they had the experience, they
parted way. She went back to Smith's College, ended up graduating from college,
went on to graduate school and married a medical doctor and was working and
living in the South. He was in Vermont, So they had never really
had the opportunity to even discuss their sightings in detail. So this is an
incredible story. Walter Webb did a comparative analysis of their statements under hypnosis,
very similar to what I did with the Betty and Barney Hill case. I
wasn't aware that he had also done that sort of thing when I did mine,
but it is an incredible story, and yes, Walter did something very
similar. Yeah, I was not aware of that case. I'll have to
look that up. It sounds very interesting. But I'm sure now people are
wanting to hear what did they discover under hypnosis? What did they discover?
Well, I should mention that Betty had a series of dreams and nightmares.
They ran five nights in a row just before she got up in the morning.
Barney was working nights, he wasn't sleeping with her. She wrote notes
about what she recalled, and then in November of that year, she wrote
a six page paper where she reconstructed everything in logical sequence, and it was
about an alien abduction, but it was different from what she and Barney recalled
under hypnosis. Some parts of it were the same in her recollection, but
many many parts were very different. For example, she dreamed that there were
eight to eleven aliens standing in the road. They looked very human, They
were wearing blue cadet uniforms. They had black hair. They were about five
and a half feet tall, and they surrounded the car and took Betty and
Barney to a crust well. Under hypnosis, Betty recalled that she didn't see
that, nor did Bonnie. They remember heard non humans with spindly legs coming
down the road towards them. They were very frightened. There were only three
that approached Barney's door and three that approached Barney's Betty's. They hadn't surrounded the
car. They were much smaller than the beings that Betty recalled from her dreams,
and they were dressed differently. They were dressed in black, shiny outfits.
So all of this was very different and Betty's dreams. She said that
she and Varnie sat silently. Well, that isn't what Betty and Varney stated
under hypnosis. Barnie was alarmed. He said that he thought it was the
ones that he saw in the field at first, before he stated that he
and Betty were discussing what was going on? Was there an accident they had?
What was all of this? So there was some discussion when they realized
that they were not human beings coming toward the car. Then he tried to
escape. She put her hand on the door, and she wanted to run
into the woods and hide, but they captured her. There were three who
came to her door, and she at that point lost consciousness and they took
her out. Different from her dreams, of course, they were both taken
to the waiting craft. Bonnie described under hypnosis how he could feel the toes
of his shoes bumping along the stones along the root, but at the same
time he felt as if he were floating. It was only his toes that
were bumping. His arms were outstretched and numb. He was feeling numb all
over. And he was taken up what appeared to be some kind of a
ramp, and his toes tripped over the top of sort of an opening and
elevated surface of the opening at the bottom of the opening, the top of
the ramp. Betty recalled struggling. She didn't she was fighting. She didn't
want to go up, and she didn't state it under hypnosis, but she
did recall and told me, and also told Philips Buttinger, who did the
chemical analysis on the dress she was wearing that night, that she struggled and
actually kicked one of these beings, and that's probably how the hem on her
dress was torn down and the lining was torn from waist to hemlines. They
were taken on board and taken to separate examining rooms where they were given a
physical examination, a very strange physical examination by human standards. Their skin was
scraped. Betty's exam was first. They stared into their eyes. They seemed
to be very interested in Betty's in bony skeletal systems. They closely examined their
feet, They took their shoes off, felt of their toes, their feet,
felt up their legs, their arms, their necks, their heads,
They felt up their spinal column. They seemed to be counting the bones in
their spinal column, and Betty and Barney both stated this under separate hypnosis.
Of course, there was the needle in the navel, a device of sort
of a wand that was Betty thought appeared like a needle but felt like a
knife was thrust into her navel, causing a great deal of pain. This
is before we had developed amniocentesis, before we were doing laparoscopic surgery. Barney
stated that a cup like device was placed over his groin. It had substance,
it had body to it, and he thought that they had taken a
sperm sample from him. A couple of months after they returned home from this
event. I mean, I'm not talking about the abduction. I'm talking back
in nineteen sixty one again, Bonnie Well when immediately when he returned home he
noticed itching on his growing a very weird sensation. A couple of months later,
a perfect concentric circle of lesions grew in that area. While he was
undergoing hypnosis with doctor Simon. Those lesions became inflamed and he had them surgically
removed. So that was I think a very interesting more than a coincidence,
more physical evidence. Yes, yes, you could call it physical evidence.
The medical doctor Simon actually saw those warts that some hypnosis tapes or they were
not venereal warts. I might mention, according to Barney's statement about the laboratory,
the results of the laboratory tests. So and then when this was completed,
they were taken, they were allowed to leave the craft. During Barney's
examination, Betty was again had dressed herself and she was in the room with
the person that she called the leader, who was more or less the translator,
and she wanted to know where they were from, and so he did
something to the wall. He produced this three dimensional star map and he after,
know where you are on this map? And she said no. And
he said, if you don't know where you are, how can I tell
you where I am? A kind of a deceptive statement. In my mind,
I wouldn't have been very happy about that kind of an answer. You
did see lines connecting these dots. Some of the dots were as large as
a nickel, and some of them were pinpoints. Some of them had solid
lines connected them, some of them had dotted lines connecting them. And Betty
stated to doctor Simon that some were trade routes and some were expeditions. Pretty
interesting and been a trivia is that Later on Major Fish was her name,
I think Marjorie Yes who found that that could have been representative of the star
system somewhere in there Reticuli, which started this whole idea of in popular culture
of aliens from Zeta Reticuli. That is true, very true. Majorie did
a fantastic job at research. I'm just amazed to think that she didn't have
a computer, that she had to travel to the university and use the astronomy
Department's manuals in order to get her data. And she had to hand copy
all of that data. And what an incredible mind she had to be able
to construct twenty six three dimensional models of our balactic neighborhood with every star in
its proper location. She started with the sun like stars. She didn't put
every star, and I have to back up a little bit there, but
she started with sun like stars and worked out from their attempting to find a
match. She couldn't. She didn't find a match until nineteen seventy two when
a new catalog she got her hands on a new catalog, and that new
catalog has information about three stars that were on Betty's map that she hadn't been
able to find. Once she had that information and those stars were in their
proper place, she had a match. Another interesting conversation that I've heard of
Betty having with the extra treastural was about where she said something like am I
going to remember this? And it said no, and she said, oh,
yeah, I will. No, you won't, Yes, I will.
And this little argument over you're not going to remember? Oh yes I
will? Is that true? Yes? That is true? This is something
different than what was in Betty's dream material. Actually in her dreams. She
and Barney were returned by the crew to the car at the same time,
but under hypnosis. Barney was returned first. He sat on his gun when
they put him into the car, and he sat and waited and wondered when
Betty. Where Betty was and when she was coming. Then she came down
the path. It was when she was walking down the path being escorted by
the leader that they had a discussion. He had taken a book that she
had grabbed that was in the room. It was I can't the only way
I can describe it as a book. It didn't look like our books.
But she took it and wanted to have that as evidence that this event occurred.
He took it from her. He said, it's best that you don't
remember, and she stated, I will remember if this is the last thing
I ever do. I'm not going to forget this. Of course, she
did initially forget it, but it might have come out in her dreams,
and it definitely came out under hypnosis. According to what I found in my
comparative analysis, I believe that it was a real experience. That is what
I want to get into some of because we've got about fifteen minutes late left.
The difference is between the dreams and the regression. Why do you believe
there were differences in which memories do you believe were more accurate? Well,
what I did is I lined up, sentence by sentence Fanny's statements about the
capture, his experience on board the craft, and his release, and I
did the same thing with Betty's statements, and then I compared them to Betty's
statements in her dream material. Some of her dream material was obviously dreams.
Other information was questionable. It might have reflected a real experience. I don't
know. But the only information that I could use in my mind to do
a scientific evaluation of this from a social science perspective was to use information about
how many aliens were in a certain location at a certain time, and that
sort of information. And I found that Betty and Barney made identical statements about
how many were in a certain location at a certain time when they were together.
Now I couldn't compare their statements when they were apart, but they did
describe some medicinal procedures that were the same. They described the room and they
gave details that were not in Betty's dream material, so it was some of
that. It was subtle, but it was very significant, particularly the numbers
of individuals, the way they moved, particularly at the capture and at the
release, and the sequential order even in which Betty recalled the information under hypnosis
was different from the sequential order in which she arranged her dreams. So it's
all in captured, very long captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience.
But there is a great deal of information there about my comparative analysis, and
so people know. You can go to Kathleen Dashmarten dot com and we'll mention
that again later or Amazon to get the book captured. And one of the
things you talk about is the use and misuse of hypnosis and abduction investigations.
You feel that the hypnosis was accurate in this case, what do you feel
are do you feel that hypnosis is often misused? And how is that?
Well? The thing I want to stress is, first of all, doctor
Simon was a professional. He was a mental health professional, highly skilled in
the use of hypnosis. In addition to that, he didn't believe that UFOs
were real. He remained skeptical, didn't he about the nature of what had
happened to the hills. Yes, he did remain skeptical about it. He
looked for psychological explanation for the whole thing. He did concede that anything was
possible, and he stated to Betty and Barney on the hypnosis tape that it
was just a matter of having to wait and see. They didn't see if
this happened to anybody else. If it happened to somebody else, maybe he
could believe that it had happened to them. So that's what he stated.
He later in the mid seventies, came out and publicly stated that he felt
that Barney had absorbed Betty's dreams and that was the reason for my comparative analysis.
He thought that Betty had restated her dreams on the hypnosis and that Barney
had absorbed the information and simply stated Betty's dream material. So your analysis would
disprove that because the dreams were different than the hypnosis. That is true,
absolutely true, And that's what is so significant about my findings. Very interesting.
So then when it comes to in more modern cases, because it does
seem to that this has happened to more people with the use of hypnosis.
I guess what would you advise, I would tread very cautiously. Make sure
that you see a mental health professional who is skilled in the use of hypnosis.
So many people don't want to pay someone to do hypnosis, and they'll
go to someone who was on train or somebody who might have taken a week
weekend course and smoking cessation and weight loss and that sort of thing. They're
not clinically trained. It's very, very import important to have someone who's clinically
trained because it's a traumatic experience for most people. And the degree of trauma
that doctor Simon saw that was released in Betty's and Findings hypnosis sessions was greater
than anything that he saw when he was treating the shell shot victims of World
War Two. It was a life threatening experience. And to be in the
hands of someone who really isn't skilled in the use of hypnosis and isn't a
mental health professional, to me, is putting yourself in danger. It's sort
of like saying, well, I can't afford to have this appendect in me,
so I think I'll go down to the butcher and ask him to do
it for me, you know, to me, it's equivalent to that,
so I would tread very life and very cautiously. I agree with you,
and it does, unfortunately seem, especially in this field, a lot of
the people who are not trained therapists, psychologists or psychotherapists are often the researchers
who get highlighted in this field, whereas it seems like that there are people
who are trained for the therapy are just kind of they're not as self promoting,
so they don't get their work doesn't get as much attention in this field
as I feel it should. I agree with you, yes, that that
teem seems to be true, and I do think that we really you should
think twice about having hypnosis. I think that there is a time when hypnosis
is very important, and that is when there is a multiple witness abduction.
I think that that's important to researchers and investigators because you can do a comparative
analysis and you can obtain statistical evidence that this was or was not a real
event. You can't get that when you hypnotize only one person. You know,
it's more for curiosity and information, but there's no guarantee that what the
information that the individual is giving is accurate. There's one other piece of physical
evidence I wanted to mention also, and you had brought it up a little
bit with Phillis Budinger an analysis she says she did on the dress that Betty
Hill was wearing that evening. She also found other physical evidence in the form
of some sort of chemical Is that correct? Yes, this was I think
you're talking about the DNA analysis. Okay, that was impeded because there was
some kind of inhibitory substance on the dress that prevented a full DNA chain from
being lifted off the dress. So they had to do the kind of investigation
that they might do, for example, on dinosaur bones where they might not
have a full DNA sample, and they had to use a medium in which
they attempted to grow a full DNA chain. As I understand that I've taken
courses in genetics, but I'm not atois. So they they did find some
healed in some and some mouse and some spider DNA, but that that's pretty
much the extent of it. I you know, I don't I don't know
if we can even identify alien DNA, if there is a thing. So
they didn't find anything anomalist there. Well, Phillips has said that she did
have anomalous findings, that there was oil on the dress and that this oil
did not come from Betty's body, that this was an anomalous finding. So
yes, there were anomalous findings according to Phyllis, and Phillis made the statement
that she was convinced after she had done her analysis of Betty's dress. And
I'm talking about not only chemical but the forensic analysis of the tears on Betty's
dress, that two inch chair at the top of the zipper on one side,
the one inch chair on the other side. The pink powdery substance was
compared to the blue substance that she wasn't able to identify. All of that
was anomalist. No laboratory has ever been able to identify what that pink powdery
substance is. Gotcha. So another addition to the story. And now I
guess that since we're wrapping up, we've only got about five minutes, and
probably my last question will be Luckily you're going to be speaking out the Congress,
so you'll be elaborating on some of the critics of the Betty and Barney
Hill story and why some of these arguments don't hold up, such as the
one you talked about with Simon just now. But I did want to ask
you if you kind of now have had a lifelong interest and involvement in UFO
research, having a very important position with the largest UFO organization and very professional
organization. Move on, what how did you feel compelled to donate so much
of your life to exploring this this anomaly. Oh, I had actually had
a professional career, first as a social worker, then as a teacher,
and then as an education services coordinator. But about twenty one years ago,
now I couldn't stop thinking about doing what I really wanted to do, and
that was to investigate my aunt and uncle's UFO experience. I thought about that
all of my life. I was compelled to do it, but I didn't
have the time. I was working full time, I was raising children,
And finally I had the opportunity where I was able to embark upon a new
career, really with my husband's financial support, and investigate this case on my
own. And it was the self fulfilling to be able to do that,
to be able to interview Betty. Betty and I were very close, and
I played Devil's Advocate. I have hours of taped interviews with Betty. She
gave me all of her files to review. I was the trustee of her
escape. She gave me all of the hypnosis tapes so that I could transcribe
them for comparative analysis. We talked for hours and hours and hours. I
can't tell you how many I was at her house, a couple of days
a week for years doing this investigation. A little bit at a time.
She and I went to the different encounter sites. We traveled along the close
encounter route. We went to the abduction site over and over and over again.
So I really had a good feel for it. And I must say
that it is the most interesting and fulfilling job I have ever had, but
probably the lowest paying, right. I think a lot of people feel that
way. And I know, you know, you watched the interviews with Betty
Hill, and I know she touched a lot of people's lives, people I've
known and been able to work with. She seemed like a very fun and
charming person to be around. She was she was, She had a great
sense of humor. She was so bright and so well read, and just
had this sort of why sense of humor that you know would just crack you
up. She was great and still Yeah, like you said, this is
one of the most extraordinary cases in this field. And now you've looked at
quite a few of them. Yes, I have. I after I investigated
Betty's case, and of course even during that I was investigating more abduction and
reading all that I could about it. And there were family members who had
missing time experiences besides Betty that I have worked with, and also other people
who believe that they might have been abductive. So I'm learning more and more
all of the time. This is an ongoing learning process for me. All
right, Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Remember
you can go to Kathleen Ashmartin dot com for more information and for her books,
and you can go to Ufocongress dot com for when more information on when
she'll speak so you can meet Betty and get your book signed. Thank you
so much for being on the show, but we are out of time.
It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
It was great. It was finally, you know, good to get
all of the details on this extraordinary case firsthand. So next week, ladies
and gentlemen, we have Richard Dolan, UFO historian. He's also another speaker
at the UFO Congress this year. It's been about a year since we've talked
to him. We're going to talk to him about his new book AD.
We've had Bryce Abel, the co author of that, on the show.
We're going to talk about the Congress and some of his latest version of UFO's
in the National Security State and ask him, hey, when's issue number three
coming out. Thank you for listening to Open Minds Radio. Don't forget to
open Visit open minds dot tv for more UFO news. Talk to you next
week, US USA, US