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Welcome for Open Minds Radio with Alejandro
Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO

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news authority presenting evidence and the latest
news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your

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host, Alejandro Rohan. Thank you, mister Bob Dean. He's got such

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a relaxing, mellow voice. I
hope I'm one of the relaxing mellow old

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men and not one of the grouchy
ones who's just mad at everything and little

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kids running around them all around when
I get that age. Hello and welcome

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to Open Minds Radio. This is
Alejandro Rojas and we have a great show

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today. Our guest is Kathleen Martin, so this is going to be fun.

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Another guest that we haven't had on
before, and another guest that is

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speaking at our incredible UFO Internet UFO
Congress. And Kathleen is very important for

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many many reasons in this field.
First of all because she's the niece of

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Betty and Barney Hill, Betty and
Barney Hill being the first abduction story to

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hit the news and one of the
most credible ones. And she'll tell us

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all about that and the details and
some of the debunking that's gone on and

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why it doesn't hold any water.
She has also written a book about that

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with Stanton Friedman, so we'll talk
about that book. Another reason she's so

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important is because she was a big
part of the Mutual UFO network for so

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long. She was actually their director
of field Investigator training for quite some time.

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In fact, she's the one who
graded my investigator test and passed me.

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And I promise I did not slip
her any money. I just passed

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it right off the bat. I'm
that good. Also, she's continued to

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be a researcher in this build.
She's actually retired from her move On position

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and has gone on to write other
books. In fact, most recently she

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wrote a book called Science Was Wrong, also with san Friedman. This one

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more focused on the historical references to
how science thinks they have it right and

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they find out they have it wrong. Pretty much every it seems like outstanding

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theory eventually gets put on its ear
as they make discoveries to find out,

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Oops, I guess we had that
completely wrong. Surprise, surprise. She

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also, in her experience with investigating
the Betty and Barney Hills case, has

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done a lot of research on abductions
and has some interesting opinions regarding the use

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of hypnosis, and also, of
course some of the Harvard studies about false

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memories and dreams and sleep paralysis and
all of this stuff. So it's going

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to be a very very interesting show. I'm very very excited about it.

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Also, we've gotten a great increase
in YouTube subscribers, Thank you very much,

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and continue to go ahead and subscribe
to those. We have a video

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up now with it's kind of a
little trailer of the DVD. I think

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I told you about that last time
of our investigations that you can buy at

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our website. So if you want
to see what that's all about, go

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to YouTube, go to Open Minds
TV on YouTube and you'll be able to

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see a little trailer that shows you
what that's all about. And in UFO

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Congress News, before we get into
other news, I want to let you

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know that some of you may have
found that when you call a hotel,

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they're already booked. I think I
told you a little bit about that last

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week. So the main hotel is
booked up, which is awesome because we're

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getting so many people, and now
we're starting to fill a second hotel that's

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the Comfort in Fountain Hills. Comfort
is their specialty, so you're going to

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be comfortable. It's a wonderful place. It's right around the corner, and

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they have a free shuttle that takes
you to the event. So just come

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on over in the morning and come
party with the rest of us. Come

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party with Santon Friedman and Kathleen Martin
and all of the speakers, and we'll

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have a lot of fun. So
comfort In is a place. You can

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find more information on our website,
or you can actually call the radison and

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they'll give you information about the comfort
In At least that's what they told me

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this morning. They're going to start
doing. But otherwise, as usual,

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the best thing to do is listen
to Open Minds Radio to stay up to

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date and at all that is going
down regarding the UFO Congress. So we're

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very excited. Like I mentioned before, we're taking over the whole town of

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Fountain Hills and this is like,
you know, a fancy area outside of

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Scottsdale, which is known nationally as
a fancy area. So it's just gonna

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be so much fun and you're gonna
feel fantas So you're going to feel like

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a fancy upologist. The home of
the fancy upologists. So moving on UFOs

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in the news. There has been
a lot of news this week, as

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there is every week. We've been
keeping up on the news and you can

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see that at Openminds dot tv.
And one person in particular who keeps up

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on the news. He's very diligent
about this, and then he brings that

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news to us every week to tell
us all about it. Very insightful,

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very intelligent. And now he's got
a fojok going on, so very stylish

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as well. And that's Jason McClellan. Hello Jason, Hello Alejandro, and

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greetings everyone. This is your Open
Minds news breed for Monday, January tenth,

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twenty eleven. We're just more than
a week into the twenty eleven year

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and New Year's Eve always results in
several UFO reports for many reasons. First

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of all, you have fireworks being
launched and those can be mistaken for UFOs.

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And second, you have more people
looking up at the fireworks, so

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their eyes are up but the sky, making it more likely that they'll notice

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something strange in the sky. And
the state of Florida was a good example.

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This past New Year's Eve. There
were multiple reports across the state of

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strange lights in the sky. Many
witnesses described seeing floating red or orange lights,

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and as has become pretty common,
many of these reports have been dismissed

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as Chinese lanterns. One couple who
witnessed the strange life on New Year's Eve

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said they were sure the lights were
from Chinese lanterns because they have launched Chinese

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lanterns many times themselves. They explained, if you don't know what the thing

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is, you're going to think.
At the UFO, a grandmother and her

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granddaughter found a down Chinese lantern and
Ellington, Florida, and the media was

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quick to push that as proof that
the lanterns were to blame for all of

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the sightings. However, the lantern
that was discovered was discovered two days prior

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to New Year's Eve. Yeah.
Well, and of course we've launched them

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ourselves, so we know what's going
down. I don't know if you're going

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to talk about that later. I'll
hold on to that a little bit of

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information. I'm not going to go
too much into it, but yeah,

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I mean, certainly, after seeing
how Chinese lanterns look in the sky,

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how they behave in the sky,
you know, depending on the brightness of

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the sky at the preticular time they're
in the sky, they can look like

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different things. But you know,
a lot of these sightings with how they're

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described the movements, people say these
things are making in the sky rapid turns,

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different things like that. Chinese lanterns. Just I won't say they can't

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do it. Yeah, I'll say
most of the time not likely as the

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Chinese lantern. Well, let me
ask you this, because since we've launched

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them ourselves. Now we did this
a few days ago, I think most

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of these sightings are actually less likely
Chinese lanterns than I did prior to us

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launching them. I agree with you
one hundred percent because of the distance.

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And you know, like you said, New Year's Eve, fourth of July

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is also a period of time where
there's a lot of sightings. And interesting

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enough, during Stephen Bill, there
was a sighting on New Year's Eve in

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San Diego and that was covered in
the local news. You would have thought

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that that would have been a big
deal. They even got some video of

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these lights blowing across the sky for
a period of time, and these were

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like engineering students in San Diego.
But instead these anomalists lights which nobody ever

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got pictures or video of, and
Stephenville became the big story. Chinese lanterns,

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there's certainly something we're looking a lot
at. You know, I'm definitely

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fascinated by them, and I'm interested
in doing more testing on myself, just

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because so many sightings now there are
a lot of orange and red lights in

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the sky, and Chinese lanterns become
the weather balloon. Yeah, you know,

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everybody pushes it off very quickly and
goes, oh, that's the Chinese

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lantern, but they don't look at
the time these things are in the sky

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and say, well, Chinese lanterns
don't stay in the sky how long?

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And just different behaviors. I won't
go too much into it. We're working

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on an article for the magazine right
now, but definitely something I'm looking more

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into because I think a lot of
these things get brushed away too quickly.

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And different colored orbs, especially red
and orange and white have been common throughout

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a UFO history. That's right,
as things that have been seen for decades.

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Here's another example. A UFO was
spotted over Horrorboro, England, last

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Sunday night. The witness describes seeing
an orange light that seemed to get bigger

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and then turned to its right.
It went higher at incredible speed and disappeared

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into space. Several mysterious lights in
the sky have been reported in Harborough,

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and most have been dismissed. This
Chinese lanterns. And again, as one

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would suspect, even a Chinese lantern
isn't going to go higher at an incredible

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speed. It can certainly go higher, and as you and I have personally

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witnessed, because of different air currents
and different altitudes, the wind can sweep

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it up and push it to the
side and push it back to the other

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side, and then it can go
down quickly. But these sharp sweeping motions

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and accelerating and jumping, increasing in
altitude, and just very strange behavior not

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typical of a Chinese lantern. Someone
actually asked what a Chinese lantern is.

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That's just so very good question,
Yeah, because I don't know if we've

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actually described exactly what it is.
It's just kind of a large round light

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paper and in the middle of this
is a little wire array holding something that

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has a flame. In the case
that what we did were these probably the

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safest. It's like this little cardboard
stuff that has some sort of flammable fluid

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on it, and you like this
and it heats up inside of this paper

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and it floats around and then falls
down. And these ones were biotegrater,

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but these were probably the safest kind. They're definitely the safest. They have

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a big problem in the UK with
varying kinds of Chinese lanterns where these things

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come down and the fuel source used
on them causes fires, it harms livestock.

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So a lot of places have called
for a ban on these things,

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and there have actually been press releases
and warnings issued by various emergency organizations in

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the UK and entrepreneurs over there warning
people asking people not to launch Chinese lanterns

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because they're being mistaken for warning players. Yeah, there are so many different

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varieties of Chinese lanterns, and that's
another thing that makes it difficult to really

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analyze the behavior of Chinese lanterns as
a whole, because there's so many variations

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on what a Chinese lantern is.
And some people do the homemade variety and

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take a candle and wrap some teleophane
around it and tie it to a balloon.

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I mean, there's so many different
things in different fuel sources. So

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until we test them all, we
don't know one hundred. But my good

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buddy Dan Okie and the chat had
a comment, and I want to ask

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you, Jason, because I know
you did more research in the types of

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Chinese lanterns. He says, there
there's an expensive type that will totally go

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into space. I wouldn't doubt that. That's probably more along the lines of

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the varying research balloons, weather balloons, things you can get for these.

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I forget what they're there. Dan
should know he worked at a weather station

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for a while. I think light
it's a weather man. There's a term

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for it, and I know it's
it's very big as a hobby and a

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lot of schools have have hobby groups
that do this. They launched these pretty

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sophisticated balloons that have HD cameras and
GPS and and uh so there there are

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tons of variety. I'm sure there's
because I know some of these Chines,

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the manufacturers of the of the Chinese
lanterns. You can get custom made Chinese

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lanterns and they'll make them enormous sized
balloons. Did A lot of places really

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say are unsafe, so they won't
allow you to launch them. But these

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people will make enormous balloons for you. You can have your logo or favorite

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sports team printed all over them,
and I bet those suckers will go for

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a while. Yeah, they'll go
very high. If you've been wanting to

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travel to space. There are now
seventy six travel agencies in the United States

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that have been authorized to sell tickets
for Virgin Galactic space flights, and there

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are countless others other travel agencies in
countries around the world. Virgin Galactic has

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announced a ticket price of two hundred
thousand dollars and they say each flight will

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be able to carry six passengers and
two pilots, and they plan to offer

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three flights a day, five times
a week. But if you're living in

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the twenty first century like I am, and you want to book your own

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flight rather than going through a travel
agent, Yeah, who uses travel agents

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anymore? Will that show up like
on cheap tickets dot Com. It's possible.

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I would think they would need help
pushing these tickets, But they haven't

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had a flight yet. Passenger flights
haven't started. But Virgin started selling tickets

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in two thousand and five, and
they've got a pretty hefty list and people

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have to put down at twenty percent
deposit and start going through all of their

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training and everything, probably helping their
funding a lot. They're getting a lot

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of upfront, absolutely, but you
know, for people who don't want to

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use the travel agent, Virgin Galactic
is just like any other airline. You

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can go to Virgin Galactic's website and
book your ticket right now. I do

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that. I do mine on my
Little south West app on my iPhone.

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Hopefully they'll have an app, Virgin
Galacti. By the time they're ready to

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launch, they probably will have an
app. If they don't already have an

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app. Probably. I think it's
incredible if how you know, prices always

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go down once technology hits How many
years is it going to be till these

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are really affordable. There will be
a time where these tickets are going to

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be very affordable. And if they're
starting in the next year or two,

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who knows, that could be ten
years from now where it's going to be

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maybe a couple thousand bucks. It
wouldn't be surprised if it is sooner than

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that. With this, the so
many companies all competing to get into space

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and do the space tourism thing.
I think the market is really going to

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drive the price down pretty fast.
Cool, not as fast as I want,

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But I'd like to not have arthritis
by the time I get into space.

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Maybe it'll help relieve our arthritis.
It could. I want to be

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weightless. Here's an interesting story from
the past week. Birds, fish,

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and other wildlife have been showing up
dead by the thousands around the world.

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Tests have been done on the animals
and their environments to determine if disease or

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toxins played a role, but none
have been discovered so far. Stress,

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weather, indigestion, and clumsiness have
all been offered by experts to explain the

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strange deaths, but there doesn't seem
to be any definitive answer in any of

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the cases. Some officials have been
baffled by the mysterious death while others have

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claimed that these deaths are natural and
happen regularly and surprise. Recently wrote a

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story on this, and when I
was researching it, I couldn't believe how

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many cases have happened in the past. I was looking for something that just

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happened last week, and I was
finding things from nineteen ninety seven where one

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hundred tons of fish or one hundred
thousand tons of fish have died. A

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million fish died, and it happens
in these places all the time. It

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was a particular I think it was
in Louisiana where a bunch of birds died

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on a freeway and people there were
saying, oh, yeah, it happens

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all the time. Where he used
to seeing the dead birds, not usually

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in its number, but it happens
all the time. I mean, I've

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been paying attention to paranormal for quite
some time now, and it always has

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been a fairly regular thing here and
there, but not so much as right

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now. I mean, right now, to have all these different types of

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species all over the world, it's
happening a lot more than ever before.

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They say it could be temperature changes. Now they're saying it could be a

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change in the magnetic who knows,
but there's definitely I mean, a lot

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more of these deaths happening than I've
ever seen. Well, it's really fascinating

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with what species are affected. You
know, in a lot of these situations

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it's just one species. Yeah,
So you know, the officials were looking

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at poisoning or something or freezing,
you know, weather issues but just one

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species in a river, one species
of fish would turn up dead. Yep,

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really weird. I mean, why
do you see on one beach it

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was a bunch of crabs, right? Why just the crabs? Why not

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the other sea life out there?
Just to crabs? Very strange. And

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you know, this has been getting
a lot of attention. And because UFOs

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and UFO related stories have been getting
a lot of attention, you know,

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as you mentioned previous stories, this
has come up to people suggesting that cloaked

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UFOs invisible UFOs possibly could be to
blame because in a lot of the bird

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cases, officials, after performing autopsies, find out that these burned birds suffered

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physical damage. They like ran into
something or something hit them or surprise them,

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causing internal bleeding. I wonder if
they feel bad. You know,

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you're in your UFO cloaked up there, hanging out and all of a sudden,

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tump tump, tump, tum tump, and you run through the window

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and oh, go around. I
don't know if you've ever done that in

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your car, but it's the worst
feeling in the world. Luckily I haven't

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hit a bird. Oh it's awful, yeah, but yeah, I can't

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imagine hitting a thousand birds at once. Yeah. I hope that's not the

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case. They need to get one
of those little sound things, the little

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whistle things that make sure that the
animals stay away from your vehicle when you're

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driving. You can give them that
suggestion when you meet them. Yeah.

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A recent article on MSNBC highlighted the
fact that UFOs and related topics are very

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popular with most people. In highlighting
their most popular space stores from last year,

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many related to UFOs were on the
list, including the release of Leslie

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Keane's best selling book UFOs, Generals, pilots and government officials Go on the

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Record, and NASA's teasing press release
that caused many to speculate whether or not

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NASA was going to announce the discovery
of aliens. Very cool. I mean

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it shows the interest. The interest
I think in this build is so secret

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a lot of people. When you're
you believe in this stuff, you feel

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like, oh man, no one
else believes in this. They're going to

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make fun of me, and and
you know, people tease me all the

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time. But even those people that
are out there kind of teasing people doesn't

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necessarily mean they don't believe they're just
not comfortable enough to say, yeah,

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dude, I believe in aliens too. You know, it's more fun to

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tease people about it if they say
they've seen a UFO, but not that

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I do that, but others do. There's a lot more. The poles

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always show. There's you know,
nearly fifty thirty to fifty percent. The

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poles always show sometimes more that people
believe in this stuff. Right. A

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new station in South Texas reported a
story about a mystery missile caught on camera

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in Padre Island last week. I'm
sure you remember the mystery missile that the

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media went buzzing about off the coast
of LA that was just at the end

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of last year. The witness captured
video of the object and its trail on

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his phone. Skeptics were quick to
dismiss the object as an airplane, but

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the witness in the news station bull
stated that the object was moving too fast

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to be a plane. But you
know, this one looked even less like

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a missile than the LA one.
It looked just like an airplane contrail.

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And that's what a lot of people
were saying that it. Oh, clearly

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it is because you can tell it's
not moving that fast. But again,

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on a cell phone camera, you
can't tell that much. Yeah, it's

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really hard to tell, especially when
you have eyewitnesses there, and I think

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they had multiple eyewitnesses, right,
So we're saying that it was a missile,

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so you know nothing. Your cell
phone's just not going to catch much.

279
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But your eyes can see a lot
more because of course, when we

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see a jet in the air,
you can stare at it and see its

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wings and stuff. But who knows
these mystery missiles and it's not uncommon for

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other parts of the world. It's
more uncommon for the United States, but

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you know, there's unclaimed missiles flying
around unfortunately in Eastern Europe and stuff all

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the time. The thing about these
mystery missile cases that is the most alarming

285
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to me is when the reporters try
to tract information about it, they call

286
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the FAA, they contact the military
bases, and no one can tell them

287
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what it is. Yeah. I
think it's ridiculous. It makes no sense.

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I mean, I've experienced on UFO
investigations calling the fa and saying,

289
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hey, you know, there's a
security guard who just got back from Iraq

290
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:36.079
and he says, something weird was
flying over the mountain and it's on the

291
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same we're jets by in this area, and oh, you know, we

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don't take those kind of calls called
the UFO Reporting Center. Well, come

293
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:48.480
on, aren't you in charge of
the safety of these commercial planes? Why

294
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are you not paying attention to this
stuff? It doesn't make any sense.

295
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It's awful. They're very confusing cases. I mean, when I see them,

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I kind of unfortunately, I kind
of shrug and obviously it's an airplane

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contrail. But then when you dig
deeper, the answers just aren't there.

298
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Yeah, you think it would be
something simple, they'd go, oh,

299
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yeah, that's our delta flight whatever
from exactly, But no, they have

300
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no idea. I don't know what
that was. Weird, man, This

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is a cool story from today.
Scientists are suggesting that world governments coordinate a

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plan of action for when contract contact
with extraterrestrial life is made. This recommendation

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is stated in a recent extraterrestrial themed
edition of Philosophical Transitions of the Royal Society

304
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A. The suggestion is made that
the UN should come up with an established

305
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plan for dealing with any contact with
extraterrestrial life. Probably remember back in September

306
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.799
of last year, when rumors swirled
about the UN appointing a UFO ambassador,

307
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a rumor the UN quickly denied.
Unfortunately, as has been previously stated by

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00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:55.440
Stephen Hawking, some critics are suggesting
that Earth needs to prepare for the worst.

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Simon Conway Morris, a professor of
evolutionary paleo biology at Cambridge University,

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explains that light somewhere else will most
likely have similarities to life on Earth,

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including tendencies toward violence and exploitation.
I really get upset by all of these

312
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asceptions that aliens are mean. I
think it's really funny because well, because

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a lot of astrophysicists have we talked
about that before, don't believe that.

314
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But there are some that do.
But the physicist and the conventional scientists are

315
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the ones to jump to conclusions first. They seem to be the least scientific

316
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of everyone, especially the bigger they
are. Of course, they have these

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gigantic egos where they think because they
look at the stars every time. And

318
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what's interesting is a lot of the
fundamental theories related to their own science.

319
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.599
For instance, dark matter is highly
controversial whether it exists or not. A

320
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.559
lot of them, oh yeah,
dark matter exists and here what it is,

321
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and none of that is proven at
all. It's still a mystery.

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And they find more and more mysteries
all the time, such as black holes

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being created in places they shouldn't have
and they don't understand why they're in proximities,

324
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or this that we don't understand anything
related to very much to the cosmos.

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And these guys are just talking about
wild speculation, huge speculation. And

326
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I'm sure if I actually listen to
one of these people give their full talk

327
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of whatever makes sense to them,
I might not be. So I don't

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00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:40.200
know upset what they're just jump there, but I forget. I don't have

329
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:44.680
his name, but one of the
scientists there actually said that, oh,

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when extraterrestrials come, they're going to
look like us. Well, how do

331
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you know that? What are you
basing that on? Yeah? And a

332
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:57.240
lot of times they will do that
without justifying or their statements and saying,

333
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well, according to this research or
research, or we ran a model to

334
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:07.079
show this or that, just throwing
stuff out there, right, these crazy,

335
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.279
crazy scientists. I've got a little
time left, so I think I'll

336
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:15.720
throw in some WikiLeaks news. Oh
yeah, a Norwegian news site called Austin

337
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:22.759
Postin. Austin Postin has posted links
to alleged WikiLeaks documents that reference UFOs.

338
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.519
Well, there is no earth shattering
information in these documents, there are some

339
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.240
interesting mentions of government officials in Russia
and Japan who feel their government should be

340
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:37.000
investigating UFOs. These documents don't seem
to be on the wikileak's website, but

341
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.240
that doesn't mean they aren't authentic.
Well, actually, and I have an

342
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:45.440
update interesting enough. I just got
an email from Grant Cameron, who originally

343
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sent that to us from PRESIDENTIALUFO dot
com, and he was able to find

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00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:56.160
some references where there's kind of this
little battle going on so often. Postin

345
00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.880
the Norwegian Greek kuite said they got
a hold of the WikiLeaks cables and they're

346
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.680
going to release them all they want, whenever they want, because they're upset

347
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.960
that as Songe, the guy who
owns wiki leaks, is holding information back

348
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:14.119
and only releasing it when he wants
to. And the Guardian newspaper, which

349
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we talked about before, responded and
said, no, we've had those WikiLeaks

350
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.079
since way back when, and a
song just never told us when to release

351
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.839
anything. We release whatever we want, whenever we want. And of course

352
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we had the earlier story about the
Guardian saying the McKinnon story was the only

353
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:34.839
thing that they found in the wiki
leaks cable. They must not assured search

354
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.920
too carefully because they missed these two
that the Norwegians found. But it was

355
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:44.200
confirmed that the Norwegians really do have
the files, the whole two hundred and

356
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.759
fifty something thousand, and they found
a couple more UFO references. Of course,

357
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these are like they're little references,
like the Japanese story was in the

358
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.400
news three years ago, and so
they were referencing a news article. We

359
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:03.400
already covered that or back then UFO
think covered that. But and then the

360
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:06.319
other one with a Russian It was
like an interview where some guy says,

361
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:10.279
why aren't you guys investigating paranormal anymore? Right, and they kind of said,

362
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:11.680
well, we don't think there's anything
to it, but someone I mentioned,

363
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.680
yeah, that we probably should or
something like that. So they are

364
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.039
little mentioned. But but you know, this controversy, I guess is to

365
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.359
be expected. I mean that's sort
of the age we live in, and

366
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you know, anybody can come up
with documents and say, oh, well,

367
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.079
these are real documents, and we're
releasing them because no one else will.

368
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:36.480
I mean, and even now WikiLeaks. You know, if some if

369
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wiki leaks releases something, everybody is
just accepting it as fact. Yeah right,

370
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And and the what this all confirms
so is that the WikiLeaks are kind

371
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of already out there. People have
them, a lot of news organizations have

372
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.119
all of them. And so I
mean, if there were any gigantic revelations,

373
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we see them soon. In fact, the Norwegians are really going after

374
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some where they think are unethical German
dealings that they're focusing on. I have

375
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:08.359
nothing to do with UFOs, but
yeah, I mean, and remember these

376
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:14.759
are just communications between embassies and embassy
officials. That doesn't mean they're all substantiated.

377
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.480
And then these UFO cases, they
are usually references to news articles.

378
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So these news articles are the ones
to substantiate whether or not these stories are

379
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.319
real. And we probably have all
those these news articles on our website yep,

380
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:33.799
or have had them correct yep.
We are just like we're really good

381
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.039
at staying on top of it,
do our best. Yeah, that is

382
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:38.559
it for the news. You remember
to check out these stories and more at

383
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:42.839
Openminds dot Tv, your source for
UFO related news. I'm Jason McClellan,

384
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:47.920
your Open Minds News correspondent, and
you've been briefed back to you, Alejandro.

385
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.799
All right, Thank you, Jason, another wonderful job. And I

386
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:57.519
want to thank Grant Cameron for sending
us this information on these WikiLeaks so we

387
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:02.480
can be up to date on what's
going on on that front. And you

388
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.759
know what, tomorrow I'll post something
that he sent me regarding all of this

389
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:10.960
back and forth with The Guardian and
the often Buston and so you can have

390
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.720
all that information as well. And
I also want to thank all of our

391
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:22.119
good friends at the comic convention that
we went to this weekend, the Arizona's

392
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:26.400
Amazing Comic Festival. It was really
fun, a lot of funny people,

393
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.160
and in fact, a lot of
them brought up a lot some of these

394
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:34.079
stories. One gentleman brought up that
he used to live in LA and that

395
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:40.839
it wasn't that uncommon for people to
see these stray missiles. And of course

396
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:47.200
these could be tested in Southern California
because Southern California has a lot of high

397
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.880
tech stuff going on. They have
some of the big bases there where they

398
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:57.519
do. In fact, US Space
Command has a lot of their research going

399
00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:02.440
on down there in southern Calor,
so that's what it could be. That

400
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:07.319
could be what they saw on the
outside of La the mystery missile. But

401
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.440
still it was interesting for this the
guy to come up and talk about the

402
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.119
South Patre missile and then you know, the LA missile and that he has

403
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.799
seen that kind of thing before.
We had a lot of friends that joined

404
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:25.440
us there and it was a lot
of fun. Otherwise, you know the

405
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:29.839
stories, I think we covered a
lot of the stories. The other stories

406
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.160
that are going on that we didn't
talk about really are related to movies.

407
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:40.559
A lot of alien movies are coming
out very soon. New trailers on these

408
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:44.359
movies. Of course. There's a
comedy named Paul coming out very soon that

409
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:48.759
had a trailer and it's kind of
these two guys chasing UFOs, these UFO

410
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.920
hunters, and they have some kind
of little alien friend they cruise around with

411
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.960
or something. But it's a comedy. There's also a new trailer for a

412
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:03.559
movie coming out out here, I
Am Number four, these aliens being hunted

413
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:08.799
down and killed. So a lot, of course these movies are mostly pretty

414
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:17.359
negative and scary and bad aliens coming
to get us. So hey, someone

415
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:19.960
mentioned in the chat also V on
TV, and that's going on. They

416
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.839
asked me if I like it.
I gotta admit I did a review on

417
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.680
V in the magazine. I didn't
like it very much. It's really slow

418
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:32.799
and it's kind of convoluted. I
think it's kind of like the event.

419
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.880
I wasn't that into that. Disappointed
in both, but I really do like

420
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.720
the battle Starticle Galactica. When that
came up with the robots, I can't

421
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:44.519
remember what it's called. That's very
cool, Caprica, that's what it's called

422
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:49.160
on sci Fi. However, I
believe we have our guests on the line,

423
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:55.319
Kathleen Martin. Kathleen, are you
there? Yes, I am yes.

424
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.440
I was led to believe the truth
that you were there. How are

425
00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:02.599
you doing. I'm doing fun,
good good. You sound energetic, which

426
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:07.720
is good because it sounds like you
were just on another radio station just a

427
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:13.559
little while ago. So you keep
very very busy. Yes, I do.

428
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.640
Well. I want to thank you
very much for being on the show.

429
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:22.000
We're very excited to have you at
the Congress. And you might have

430
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:27.400
heard we have people registering like crazy, especially since the new year. The

431
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.119
rooms are booked up in one hotel, we're starting to book up another hotel.

432
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.039
We're going to take over this small
little town outside of Scottsdale. It

433
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:37.799
seems like it's going to be like
a tell you ride, but for UFOs,

434
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.319
Well, that's really good news.
I'm so happy to hear that.

435
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.279
Yeah, very exciting. We're going
to get a lot of people, and

436
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:50.759
we have a lot of wonderful guests
such as yourself there. Well, thank

437
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.640
you, I'm looking forward to it. Well, let's go back and kind

438
00:32:54.680 --> 00:33:00.440
of at least start off a little
chronologically, and some of what I've wanted

439
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:07.279
to ask you about is are things
like when you had first heard about your

440
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:14.279
aunt Betty's experiences, what did you
hear and what did you think of it?

441
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:21.880
Well, actually I first heard about
that experience on the day they arrived

442
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:28.720
home after having it, so immediately
I was thirteen years old. My mother

443
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:32.920
was Betty's sister. They were very
close, and Betty called my mother.

444
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:39.279
I was seated in the same room, so I overheard the conversation. When

445
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:44.160
my mother hung up the phone,
she told me what Betty had said,

446
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:51.759
and at that time my mother was
then calling a neighbor of ours, physicists,

447
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:58.079
because she and Betty were both concerned
that they might have been contaminated by

448
00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:04.880
this craft in such close proximity to
their vehicles, and he wanted to know

449
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.719
what to do. So I was
there for all of that, and within

450
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:14.639
a couple of days my family drove
down to Betty's in Barnie's house. It

451
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:20.000
was about twenty miles from my childhood
home on the sea coast of New Hampshire.

452
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:24.639
And that is when I actually had
the opportunity to witness the spots on

453
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:32.079
the trunk of the car, to
hear about the scrapes on Barney's shoes,

454
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:39.480
to actually see that their watchers were
no longer working, and to hear some

455
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:45.280
of the story. And Barney sat
in the room with my father and told

456
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:51.519
him about the non human entity that
he had observed on board the craft.

457
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:57.840
So what did I think. I
was amazed, This was totally new.

458
00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:02.320
It was a complete shock, but
I had no reason to doubt what my

459
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:07.239
aunt and uncle said. They had
a great deal of respect for them.

460
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:15.320
They were known within the family as
people who were honest and truthful. Now

461
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:20.239
maybe you can go over then the
story and especially what you had heard at

462
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:24.840
that time, because of course the
stories expanded over time, but if you

463
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:30.639
could go over what had happened to
them, okay, just briefly. They

464
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:36.719
were on their way home from a
trip first to Niagara Falls and then up

465
00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:42.440
to Montreal. They decided to drive
home during the night, and they were

466
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.360
going to stop at a motel if
they grew tired. But Barney worked the

467
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:51.119
night shift at the post office in
Boston, so he didn't think he'd have

468
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:54.920
any difficulty doing it. He was
well rested the night before and in high

469
00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:01.760
spirits, and so he thought he
could drive home. When they were south

470
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:07.280
of Lancaster, New Hampshire, and
this is in northern New Hampshire, driving

471
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:14.079
south on US Highway Route three,
the major north south route up there,

472
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:20.400
Betty spotted a new light in the
sky. We were all interested in satellites,

473
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:23.280
and she thought that it might be
a satellite, and she wondered if

474
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.280
maybe it was a falling star at
first, but the thing was, it

475
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:34.559
flew upwards and it was traveling rapidly. She had never seen a satellite before,

476
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.079
so she didn't know how they traveled
across the sky. She continued to

477
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:44.239
watch it, and it grew larger
and larger, and this sort of sparked

478
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:50.480
some curiosity in Betty, and as
she watched it over the next twenty or

479
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:57.559
so miles, it drew closer and
closer. She finally was so curious that

480
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.679
she asked Barney to stop the car
so that she could actually get out and

481
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:07.559
look at this thing through binoculars.
Fannie was a confirmed skeptic. He was

482
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:13.480
telling Betty the whole time that,
oh, it's just a conventional aircraft.

483
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:17.599
It's maybe a Piper CoV or a
commercial airliner on its way to Montreal,

484
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:22.880
to the airport up there. But
he finally did stop the car for Betty.

485
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:28.400
She told him that the dog needed
to take a walk use the bathroom,

486
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:32.960
so that was her reason. He
didn't particularly want to stop, but

487
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:38.400
they did, and they got out
and they looked at this thing. They

488
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:44.840
got back in. It appeared to
be unconventional. They continued to drive down

489
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:51.719
the highway. They were approaching a
tourist section of New Hampshire down as a

490
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:57.360
Franconian Notch, and that's where the
New Hampshire state symbol, the Old Man

491
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.920
of the Mountain was located. Fell
off the mountain. Unfortunately, in two

492
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:09.199
thousand and three, I think it
was. But as they approached Franconian Notch,

493
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:14.440
this was about four miles south of
their first stop, Betty saw the

494
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:21.320
craft passing over Cannon Mountains. There's
an aerial tramway there. There's a tower,

495
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:27.280
a lookout tower, and with an
aircraft light warning light on top of

496
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.960
it in a restaurant. Well,
as the craft passed over the top of

497
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:37.559
that light, the light blinked out, and that's pretty significant because it was

498
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:44.719
a steady light and it normally wouldn't
blink out. So this might be an

499
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:50.880
indication of electromagnetic interference because that he
didn't know it at the time. It

500
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.559
then traveled around to the back of
the mountain and came out beside the Old

501
00:38:53.639 --> 00:39:00.320
Man's profile, which was forty eight
feet from forehead to chin. Now the

502
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:06.239
craft stopped beside the profile and Deddy
and Varney noticed that it was about one

503
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:12.079
and a half time the height of
the Old Man's profile. At that point

504
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.440
it moved erradically. They got out
of the car again. It seemed to

505
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:21.480
bounce back and forth in the sky. It was traveling in a stairstep pattern,

506
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:27.480
very perplexing, and it was completely
silent, and it seemed to be

507
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:34.719
rotating. They got back into the
car and head itself through Franconia Notch and

508
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:39.840
came out at the area called Indian
Head. And Indian Head is where the

509
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:47.639
turists, cabins and attractions begin as
a more populated area, but they were

510
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.320
traveling at night during the off season. There are a lot of people up

511
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:58.119
there now during the off season,
and there's a much higher population rate up

512
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:02.639
there than there was nine teen sixty
one. There was hardly anyone else on

513
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:12.480
the road that night Betty and Betty
was growing excited. Barney, of course

514
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:17.800
was driving and watching the road,
and Barney thought that Betty really became excited.

515
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:22.599
He wanted to know what she was
so excited about. He started to

516
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:24.360
look for a place to pull off
to the side of the road again,

517
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:31.239
but before he had the opportunity to
find the spot, this craft shifted the

518
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:37.119
head and stopped in the just to
the right of the highway, just to

519
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:43.360
the right of Ruth three, and
it was then several hundred feet in the

520
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:49.480
air and it rapidly descended towards their
vehicle, causing Barney to have to stop

521
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:53.599
his car right in the middle of
the road. Wow. He jumped out

522
00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:58.480
of the car. He got his
binoculars and he had his pistol in his

523
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.239
pocket. He grabbed didn't put it
in the pocket. It was on the

524
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:06.280
floor of his vehicle. He had
taken it out actually at the first stop

525
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:09.360
because it was an area where there
might have been bears coming out of the

526
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:15.760
woods. There were picnic barrels there
well. On this third stop that they

527
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:22.559
made, this is the close encounter
field, and Bonnie looked at the craft

528
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.480
through his binoculars. Both he and
Betty could see that it had stopped approximately

529
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:35.480
one hundred to two hundred feet above
their car. There was a row of

530
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.119
lighted windows. It was a double
row of windows on a disc shaped craft.

531
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:44.800
At first they thought, you know, when they were looked at it,

532
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.280
it threw Franconia notch, and it
was far away it appeared to be

533
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:52.880
cigar shaped, but when it was
incredibly close to them they could see that

534
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:59.599
it was a disc shaped objects.
And the object then moved to the adjacent

535
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:04.280
sea just to the east of the
car, and Bonnie walked to it,

536
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:09.320
leaving Betty in the passenger seat of
the car. The car was running,

537
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:16.480
the headlights were on, and the
driver's side door was opened. He walked

538
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:22.119
to the field, looked through his
binoculars and in his first report to Walter

539
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:30.719
Webb, this is the Nightcap investigator, the astronomer from Hayden Planetarium in Boston.

540
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:40.199
He told Walter Webb that he had
observed non human, strangely non human

541
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:47.800
beings on board that craft. They
were dressed in black, shining outfits,

542
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:54.719
and he felt very threatened by him, but he was frightened by them.

543
00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:00.320
There was one who held a particular
attraction for Bonnie, and he remained at

544
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:07.880
the window peering down at Bonnie as
the others moved all together with the precisions

545
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:15.639
of Nazi officers. It was the
military precision to a panel on the back.

546
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:20.199
And when they went to that panel, their arms went up and the

547
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:25.280
craft tipped toward Bonnie, and something
started to drop out of the bottom of

548
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:30.679
it. At the same time,
small red lights on each side of the

549
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:39.239
craft started to telescope out. He
became terribly frightened at that point, and

550
00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:47.639
broke pulled the binoculars down away from
his face and ran back to the car

551
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:57.920
in a his almost hysterical condition,
telling Betty that they had to get out

552
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:01.400
of there or they were going to
be captured. That was the sense that

553
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:06.960
he got from this craft. In
fact, he told Walter Webb that he

554
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:09.800
felt he was going to be captured
like a bug in a net. That's

555
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:16.760
what he said. And I quote
that from Walter Webb's report written in October

556
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:25.159
of nineteen sixty one. So then
he told Betty to roll down the window

557
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:31.239
and look up. He thought the
craft was directly overhead. It had shifted

558
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:36.440
again from the field as he was
running toward the car. She looked up

559
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:42.599
and she didn't see anything. She
thought the craft had gone. It was

560
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:50.280
later under hypnosis that she realized that
the craft was actually hovering over the car.

561
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.280
She didn't see anything. She didn't
see the Wax and Gibbeth moon,

562
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:59.239
she didn't see the stars in the
sky that had been there. It was

563
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:04.719
all black. She rolled the window
back up, and we're going back to

564
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:10.519
their conscious recall now. She rolled
the window back up, and as she

565
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:17.119
did, she started to hear and
Barney started to hear a beeping, buzzing

566
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:24.639
code like rhythm that seemed to bounce
off the trunk of their vehicle. It

567
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:31.079
was like a mechanical buzzing sound and
it caused the car to vibrate. In

568
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:37.400
fact, Betty touched the metal of
the vehicle, wondering if she'd get a

569
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:43.559
shock from it. It sort of
reminded her. The sound sort of reminded

570
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:47.679
her of the Morse code, and
she thought that she wished that she had

571
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.039
known the Morse code, because then
she might understand what this was all about.

572
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:57.280
Barney said that it go ahead.
I was going to ask, now,

573
00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:01.719
when she saw Barney head out to
the crowd aft or did she see

574
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:06.800
the craft when when he left the
car and moved out of it. Oh?

575
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:12.239
Yeah, she also saw the craft
covering about one hundred feet above their

576
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.719
vehicle. Okay, so she just
lost track. It seemed to go over

577
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:17.760
the vehicle, but when she looked
over the vehicle, it wasn't there.

578
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:24.079
This is when he returned to the
car, she looked up above the vehicle.

579
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:29.599
Now that he's speeding down Route three, and she looked up, oh,

580
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:32.639
I see. So they took off
and then okay, okay, so

581
00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:37.519
they're both back in the vehicle.
Yeah, and he's driving. And then

582
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.920
she looked up. Okay, gotcha. They sped away from this thing.

583
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:45.440
They thought, yes, yes,
he was speeding down the highway. He

584
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:51.719
was looking for another car. He
was looking for a police officer. He

585
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:55.760
wanted to report this thing immediately.
So they were driving when that when the

586
00:46:55.840 --> 00:47:00.679
vehicle started vibrating like you were describing. Yes, yes, they were driving

587
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:09.360
down the highway when the vehicle started
vibrating. And then the sort of feeling

588
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:16.159
this passed through Betty's and Bonnies bodies. This tingling that they felt on the

589
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:22.320
car passed through their bodies, and
they started to feel very relaxed, and

590
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:27.840
they sort of lost track of time. They stopped talking to each other.

591
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:37.280
The next thing they remembered they were
about thirty five miles down the road.

592
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:45.639
They had no recollection of what happened
in the interim. They remembered at that

593
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:54.280
point they thought seeing a bright orb
in the highway, silhouetted against the trees.

594
00:47:55.199 --> 00:48:00.360
They had vague memories of a roadblock, which was part of their conscious

595
00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:05.559
recollection. They didn't recall where it
was or when it happened. And there

596
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:10.719
was a second series of buzzing or
beeping sounds that brought them back to full

597
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:19.199
consciousness. It is only then that
they started talking with each other. They

598
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:23.800
drove on home, continuing to look
out their window for the craft. They

599
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:30.400
didn't see it again. When they
arrived home. Bonnie went into the house.

600
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:36.199
They checked their watches. Their watches
had stopped operating. They reset them,

601
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.679
they rewound them to the house at
the time that the house and the

602
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:46.599
clock stated. They noticed that they
arrived home later than they had anticipated.

603
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:52.679
A couple of months later, when
they were talking with Robert Homan and Cebe

604
00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:59.800
Jackson, who were two other investigators
on the case, they realized that it

605
00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:07.000
was the full two hours that was
missing. They simply couldn't recall the events

606
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:13.559
that happened in this two hour period. They couldn't recall what they had seen

607
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:16.559
during this two hour period, and
they were not talking to each other.

608
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:22.159
So what you've just described is then
what they called your mother and they told

609
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.519
her about this, and then this
is what you all had heard. And

610
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.599
obviously they call the family and to
get the family out there. They were

611
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:37.039
pretty traumatized by this, Yes they
were. They were very concerned about this.

612
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:42.440
But it was so difficult for me
as a thirteen year old because I

613
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:47.599
was sworn to secrecy. This is
something that was not okay to talk about,

614
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.559
right. That would be pretty hard
because I'm sure, you're very excited

615
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:58.920
and you want to talk it out. Oh, I absolutely did that.

616
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:02.719
I was told that I could only
talk to family members about it. So

617
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:09.360
then did they immediately get ahold of
researchers and investigators or did this all kind

618
00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:15.159
of how did that happen? Well, on the night they arrived home,

619
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:21.079
Betty called P's Air Force Base and
made the initial Project Blue Book reports.

620
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:27.679
The following day, Major Henderson called
back. He said that there were other

621
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:35.000
people on the line as well,
that their conversation was being recorded, and

622
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:40.280
so he did an extensive interview with
both Betty and Barney, so that was

623
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:47.360
made immediately. Betty was very curious
about what this was that she did see

624
00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:52.920
and Barney saw, so she went
to the library. She had a book

625
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:59.880
written by Major Donald Keito, who
was the head of Nicass, and inside

626
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:06.679
was nycap's address. So what she
did was she wrote a letter on September

627
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:15.360
twenty fifth, nineteen sixty one to
Major Keyho describing their experience, saying that

628
00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:22.280
Barnie had seen something that was so
sort of traumatic to him that he developed

629
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:29.199
a mental block, and that they
were thinking about seeking out the services of

630
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:36.199
a confident psychiatrist who could hypnotize Bonnie. So it shows you that immediately the

631
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:45.039
idea of hypnosis was there to help
Barnie with this major keyhole. Then contacted

632
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:52.199
Walter Webb at the Hayden Planetarium.
He worked at the Hayden Planetarium in Boston,

633
00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:58.880
and Walter scheduled an interview with Betty
and Barney. He traveled from his

634
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:04.599
home in Massachusets to their home in
Portsmouth, New Hampshire and conducted a six

635
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:10.039
hour interview with them. That's one
different nineteen sixty one. A lot of

636
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:15.199
this was still pretty new. This
is before the Condon Report where Air Force

637
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:19.639
has stopped investigating. So you had
a lot of high level people, you

638
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:23.480
had a keyhos in the Marines,
you have astro or do you have all

639
00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:30.800
these gentlemen who are serious investigators,
and it didn't have the kind of stigma

640
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:34.719
that it has nowadays. There was
a lot of serious research going on when

641
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:37.679
they're trying to figure it out.
Back in those days, yes, there

642
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:47.159
was serious research and there were highly
credible competence investigators who seemed to have the

643
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:53.519
funds to be able to do this
research as well. There were university professors

644
00:52:53.559 --> 00:53:01.400
involved in this. Homan and Jackson
worked for IBM. Jackson was a senior

645
00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:08.599
engineer and Holman was a technical writer
there. Right. And I think one

646
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:13.079
thing that's important it is just that
because I mean, really the next case

647
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.760
to come along there, Walton case, there were still some of those very

648
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:22.119
high level, credible researchers. But
still at this time the Air Force had

649
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.679
already papooed the whole thing, whereas
with the Betty and Barney Hill case it

650
00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:30.760
was prior to all of that where
you really had kind of a national focus

651
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:37.719
on these sort of topics. Yes, absolutely, and I think that university

652
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:45.840
systems was more open to accepting this
kind of research, such as doctor James

653
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:52.320
McDonald did, and such as doctor
James Harder did. So you know,

654
00:53:52.360 --> 00:54:01.000
they were highly credible, competent people. So then they started to do the

655
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:08.159
regression work. Yes, that didn't
come until nineteen sixty four. It came

656
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:15.679
as a result of some physical problems
that Barnie was experiencing that seemed to be

657
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:22.360
tied to the close encounter experience.
Okay, they didn't know that at first,

658
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:28.239
but that was the conclusion in the
end. So Barnie was referred to

659
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.559
doctor Benjamin Simon, right, And
this is three years after the incident,

660
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.239
and I was just curious when did
it hit the media. It hit the

661
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:44.639
media in October October twenty fifth,
nineteen sixty five, through a violation of

662
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:51.000
confidentiality. It was published in the
Boston Traveler newspaper for five nights in a

663
00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:54.639
row. So for you, just
your experience as a thirteen year old sixty

664
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:00.599
one, late sixty one, this
all happened a few years go by,

665
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:07.320
where you at least probably got to
have personally the story probably faded a bit,

666
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:14.000
or was it always for those three
years until the regressions happened? Was

667
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:19.000
it that big story and something that
you guys are very stressed about as far

668
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:22.559
as your family goes. I think
that it was a big story in the

669
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:30.039
family because of the problems that Barney
was having, the physical problems and the

670
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:37.079
fact that he and Betty had what
was called doorway amnesia. They could go

671
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:45.880
up to a certain time and then
suddenly they had no recollection of what happened

672
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:52.800
during the next thirty five miles of
travel and the next two hours they found

673
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:58.719
out. So that was very perplexing. They wanted to find out what happened.

674
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:04.960
So then three years later they began
what sort of physical seven months later

675
00:56:05.079 --> 00:56:08.119
actually okay, when they started the
hypnosis less than two and a half years

676
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:13.920
actually, yes, And it went
on for a period of about six months,

677
00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:20.079
the hypnosis and the therapy, so
it wasn't just one section session.

678
00:56:20.599 --> 00:56:25.719
And doctor Simon was renowned in his
field. He was a neuropsychiatrist. He'd

679
00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:30.880
set up the psychiatric unit as the
Mason General Hospital on Long Island, New

680
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:37.920
York, a three thousand bed unit
to treat shell shock victims of World War

681
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:42.440
Two. He had such a high
rate of success in doing this that the

682
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:47.360
movie Let There Be Light was made
about him, starring Doctor Simon. He

683
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:53.599
was an expert in what he did
using hypnotic regression, and that's why Betty

684
00:56:53.639 --> 00:57:00.599
and Varney were referred to him.
Another point that is important is he hypnotized

685
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:07.320
them separately and he reinstated amnesia.
At the end of each session. One

686
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:15.360
would wait in a soundproof waiting room
with loud classical music playing to make sure

687
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:22.760
that nothing was overheard, so they
couldn't share ideas. These were independent statements

688
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:30.800
they made agreed, a very very
important point. So then where did they

689
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:42.320
find when they started the regressions?
Well, Eventually, doctor Simon let them

690
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:49.280
begin to recall what they had stated
under hypnosis. He permitted them to recall

691
00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:53.719
whatever they could that wasn't too troubling
to them, and they discussed this with

692
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:58.840
him over and over again. And
I also want to state that doctor Simon

693
00:57:58.880 --> 00:58:05.840
didn't just quest in each of them
one time about this entire trip. He

694
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:12.119
went to sections of the trips over
and over again and questioned them over and

695
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:15.199
over again, trying to fill in
information, trying to see if he could

696
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:22.599
trip them up, trying to see
if they made inconsistent statements, and they

697
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:29.920
when they both came out with a
very similar story about a UFO abduction,

698
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:37.480
he challenged their statements over and over
again, trying to find a logical explanation

699
00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:45.920
for this. That he couldn't possibly
believe that they had actually been abducted by

700
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:50.039
aliens, right, And he was
so careful it sounds like, you know,

701
00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:53.440
going over and over each incident,
making sure they didn't remember what happened,

702
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:59.559
to show that their memories weren't tripped
up or something new was made up

703
00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:05.800
or fabrid in their mind. That
it's probably I don't know of any other

704
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:12.800
case that where the therapist or the
administrator of the hypnosis has gone to that

705
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:21.519
length, do you because you've done
a lot of research in this Yes,

706
00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:28.199
maybe not as many sessions. Doctor
Simon really conducted a lot of sessions.

707
00:59:28.519 --> 00:59:35.920
But Walter Webb was an excellent,
excellent investigator, and he wrote the book

708
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:44.559
The Encounter at buff Ledge. This
was an investigation of a young couple.

709
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:50.239
One was sixteen, when was nineteen. They both worked at the buff Ledge

710
00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:59.000
Girls Camps on Lake Champlain and they
had a close encounter with full conscious recall

711
00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:06.039
and partially conscious recalled by one of
them about observing non human entities on board

712
01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:12.119
the craft. They had a period
of missing time, very interesting, and

713
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:22.000
he actually found a hypnotherapist who worked
individually with them, so they had no

714
01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:28.440
chance to communicate. In fact,
at the end of that summer, and

715
01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:31.480
it was nearly the end of the
summer when they had the experience, they

716
01:00:31.639 --> 01:00:37.880
parted way. She went back to
Smith's College, ended up graduating from college,

717
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:45.039
went on to graduate school and married
a medical doctor and was working and

718
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:49.239
living in the South. He was
in Vermont, So they had never really

719
01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:55.719
had the opportunity to even discuss their
sightings in detail. So this is an

720
01:00:55.840 --> 01:01:05.559
incredible story. Walter Webb did a
comparative analysis of their statements under hypnosis,

721
01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.599
very similar to what I did with
the Betty and Barney Hill case. I

722
01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:15.320
wasn't aware that he had also done
that sort of thing when I did mine,

723
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:22.199
but it is an incredible story,
and yes, Walter did something very

724
01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:23.800
similar. Yeah, I was not
aware of that case. I'll have to

725
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:28.519
look that up. It sounds very
interesting. But I'm sure now people are

726
01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:32.920
wanting to hear what did they discover
under hypnosis? What did they discover?

727
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:40.679
Well, I should mention that Betty
had a series of dreams and nightmares.

728
01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:45.599
They ran five nights in a row
just before she got up in the morning.

729
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:51.280
Barney was working nights, he wasn't
sleeping with her. She wrote notes

730
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:58.320
about what she recalled, and then
in November of that year, she wrote

731
01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:07.599
a six page paper where she reconstructed
everything in logical sequence, and it was

732
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:14.320
about an alien abduction, but it
was different from what she and Barney recalled

733
01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:20.119
under hypnosis. Some parts of it
were the same in her recollection, but

734
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:29.440
many many parts were very different.
For example, she dreamed that there were

735
01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:35.880
eight to eleven aliens standing in the
road. They looked very human, They

736
01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:39.079
were wearing blue cadet uniforms. They
had black hair. They were about five

737
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:45.880
and a half feet tall, and
they surrounded the car and took Betty and

738
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:57.599
Barney to a crust well. Under
hypnosis, Betty recalled that she didn't see

739
01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:04.519
that, nor did Bonnie. They
remember heard non humans with spindly legs coming

740
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:10.280
down the road towards them. They
were very frightened. There were only three

741
01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:16.440
that approached Barney's door and three that
approached Barney's Betty's. They hadn't surrounded the

742
01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:23.199
car. They were much smaller than
the beings that Betty recalled from her dreams,

743
01:03:23.199 --> 01:03:28.800
and they were dressed differently. They
were dressed in black, shiny outfits.

744
01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:32.079
So all of this was very different
and Betty's dreams. She said that

745
01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:37.280
she and Varnie sat silently. Well, that isn't what Betty and Varney stated

746
01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:44.440
under hypnosis. Barnie was alarmed.
He said that he thought it was the

747
01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:49.599
ones that he saw in the field
at first, before he stated that he

748
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:53.519
and Betty were discussing what was going
on? Was there an accident they had?

749
01:03:53.800 --> 01:04:00.840
What was all of this? So
there was some discussion when they realized

750
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:04.159
that they were not human beings coming
toward the car. Then he tried to

751
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:08.880
escape. She put her hand on
the door, and she wanted to run

752
01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:12.480
into the woods and hide, but
they captured her. There were three who

753
01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:15.800
came to her door, and she
at that point lost consciousness and they took

754
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:21.440
her out. Different from her dreams, of course, they were both taken

755
01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:29.440
to the waiting craft. Bonnie described
under hypnosis how he could feel the toes

756
01:04:29.480 --> 01:04:33.199
of his shoes bumping along the stones
along the root, but at the same

757
01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:36.639
time he felt as if he were
floating. It was only his toes that

758
01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:43.239
were bumping. His arms were outstretched
and numb. He was feeling numb all

759
01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:46.880
over. And he was taken up
what appeared to be some kind of a

760
01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:56.280
ramp, and his toes tripped over
the top of sort of an opening and

761
01:04:56.400 --> 01:05:00.440
elevated surface of the opening at the
bottom of the opening, the top of

762
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:05.159
the ramp. Betty recalled struggling.
She didn't she was fighting. She didn't

763
01:05:05.159 --> 01:05:11.280
want to go up, and she
didn't state it under hypnosis, but she

764
01:05:11.480 --> 01:05:18.000
did recall and told me, and
also told Philips Buttinger, who did the

765
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:24.079
chemical analysis on the dress she was
wearing that night, that she struggled and

766
01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:29.039
actually kicked one of these beings,
and that's probably how the hem on her

767
01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:33.079
dress was torn down and the lining
was torn from waist to hemlines. They

768
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:38.599
were taken on board and taken to
separate examining rooms where they were given a

769
01:05:38.599 --> 01:05:45.519
physical examination, a very strange physical
examination by human standards. Their skin was

770
01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:53.840
scraped. Betty's exam was first.
They stared into their eyes. They seemed

771
01:05:53.840 --> 01:06:00.840
to be very interested in Betty's in
bony skeletal systems. They closely examined their

772
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:03.440
feet, They took their shoes off, felt of their toes, their feet,

773
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:10.199
felt up their legs, their arms, their necks, their heads,

774
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:15.679
They felt up their spinal column.
They seemed to be counting the bones in

775
01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:24.079
their spinal column, and Betty and
Barney both stated this under separate hypnosis.

776
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:31.360
Of course, there was the needle
in the navel, a device of sort

777
01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:39.760
of a wand that was Betty thought
appeared like a needle but felt like a

778
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:46.639
knife was thrust into her navel,
causing a great deal of pain. This

779
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:55.559
is before we had developed amniocentesis,
before we were doing laparoscopic surgery. Barney

780
01:06:55.599 --> 01:07:01.119
stated that a cup like device was
placed over his groin. It had substance,

781
01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:08.599
it had body to it, and
he thought that they had taken a

782
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:16.880
sperm sample from him. A couple
of months after they returned home from this

783
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:20.199
event. I mean, I'm not
talking about the abduction. I'm talking back

784
01:07:20.679 --> 01:07:28.960
in nineteen sixty one again, Bonnie
Well when immediately when he returned home he

785
01:07:29.079 --> 01:07:34.079
noticed itching on his growing a very
weird sensation. A couple of months later,

786
01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:43.239
a perfect concentric circle of lesions grew
in that area. While he was

787
01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:49.599
undergoing hypnosis with doctor Simon. Those
lesions became inflamed and he had them surgically

788
01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:57.079
removed. So that was I think
a very interesting more than a coincidence,

789
01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:02.440
more physical evidence. Yes, yes, you could call it physical evidence.

790
01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:11.239
The medical doctor Simon actually saw those
warts that some hypnosis tapes or they were

791
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:16.159
not venereal warts. I might mention, according to Barney's statement about the laboratory,

792
01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:23.920
the results of the laboratory tests.
So and then when this was completed,

793
01:08:25.720 --> 01:08:30.680
they were taken, they were allowed
to leave the craft. During Barney's

794
01:08:31.319 --> 01:08:40.760
examination, Betty was again had dressed
herself and she was in the room with

795
01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:45.359
the person that she called the leader, who was more or less the translator,

796
01:08:46.279 --> 01:08:53.720
and she wanted to know where they
were from, and so he did

797
01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:59.680
something to the wall. He produced
this three dimensional star map and he after,

798
01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:03.600
know where you are on this map? And she said no. And

799
01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:09.640
he said, if you don't know
where you are, how can I tell

800
01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:15.279
you where I am? A kind
of a deceptive statement. In my mind,

801
01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:19.640
I wouldn't have been very happy about
that kind of an answer. You

802
01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:25.800
did see lines connecting these dots.
Some of the dots were as large as

803
01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:30.319
a nickel, and some of them
were pinpoints. Some of them had solid

804
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:35.920
lines connected them, some of them
had dotted lines connecting them. And Betty

805
01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:45.720
stated to doctor Simon that some were
trade routes and some were expeditions. Pretty

806
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:51.600
interesting and been a trivia is that
Later on Major Fish was her name,

807
01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:58.680
I think Marjorie Yes who found that
that could have been representative of the star

808
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:03.720
system somewhere in there Reticuli, which
started this whole idea of in popular culture

809
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:10.079
of aliens from Zeta Reticuli. That
is true, very true. Majorie did

810
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:15.359
a fantastic job at research. I'm
just amazed to think that she didn't have

811
01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:19.960
a computer, that she had to
travel to the university and use the astronomy

812
01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:26.920
Department's manuals in order to get her
data. And she had to hand copy

813
01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:32.399
all of that data. And what
an incredible mind she had to be able

814
01:10:32.479 --> 01:10:44.479
to construct twenty six three dimensional models
of our balactic neighborhood with every star in

815
01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:50.960
its proper location. She started with
the sun like stars. She didn't put

816
01:10:51.079 --> 01:10:55.199
every star, and I have to
back up a little bit there, but

817
01:10:55.920 --> 01:11:05.560
she started with sun like stars and
worked out from their attempting to find a

818
01:11:05.600 --> 01:11:13.720
match. She couldn't. She didn't
find a match until nineteen seventy two when

819
01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:17.039
a new catalog she got her hands
on a new catalog, and that new

820
01:11:17.119 --> 01:11:25.680
catalog has information about three stars that
were on Betty's map that she hadn't been

821
01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:30.359
able to find. Once she had
that information and those stars were in their

822
01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:36.279
proper place, she had a match. Another interesting conversation that I've heard of

823
01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:45.199
Betty having with the extra treastural was
about where she said something like am I

824
01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:47.560
going to remember this? And it
said no, and she said, oh,

825
01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:49.880
yeah, I will. No,
you won't, Yes, I will.

826
01:11:49.920 --> 01:11:54.079
And this little argument over you're not
going to remember? Oh yes I

827
01:11:54.159 --> 01:12:00.840
will? Is that true? Yes? That is true? This is something

828
01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:04.760
different than what was in Betty's dream
material. Actually in her dreams. She

829
01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:09.000
and Barney were returned by the crew
to the car at the same time,

830
01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:15.279
but under hypnosis. Barney was returned
first. He sat on his gun when

831
01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:18.159
they put him into the car,
and he sat and waited and wondered when

832
01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:21.520
Betty. Where Betty was and when
she was coming. Then she came down

833
01:12:21.560 --> 01:12:27.720
the path. It was when she
was walking down the path being escorted by

834
01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:34.239
the leader that they had a discussion. He had taken a book that she

835
01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:40.560
had grabbed that was in the room. It was I can't the only way

836
01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:43.760
I can describe it as a book. It didn't look like our books.

837
01:12:44.239 --> 01:12:48.920
But she took it and wanted to
have that as evidence that this event occurred.

838
01:12:49.439 --> 01:12:53.880
He took it from her. He
said, it's best that you don't

839
01:12:53.920 --> 01:13:00.359
remember, and she stated, I
will remember if this is the last thing

840
01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:05.239
I ever do. I'm not going
to forget this. Of course, she

841
01:13:05.359 --> 01:13:11.760
did initially forget it, but it
might have come out in her dreams,

842
01:13:11.800 --> 01:13:16.640
and it definitely came out under hypnosis. According to what I found in my

843
01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:24.199
comparative analysis, I believe that it
was a real experience. That is what

844
01:13:24.279 --> 01:13:29.520
I want to get into some of
because we've got about fifteen minutes late left.

845
01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:35.479
The difference is between the dreams and
the regression. Why do you believe

846
01:13:35.479 --> 01:13:41.159
there were differences in which memories do
you believe were more accurate? Well,

847
01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:48.560
what I did is I lined up, sentence by sentence Fanny's statements about the

848
01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:56.039
capture, his experience on board the
craft, and his release, and I

849
01:13:56.079 --> 01:14:00.960
did the same thing with Betty's statements, and then I compared them to Betty's

850
01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:12.039
statements in her dream material. Some
of her dream material was obviously dreams.

851
01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:17.359
Other information was questionable. It might
have reflected a real experience. I don't

852
01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:24.760
know. But the only information that
I could use in my mind to do

853
01:14:24.840 --> 01:14:32.680
a scientific evaluation of this from a
social science perspective was to use information about

854
01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:44.319
how many aliens were in a certain
location at a certain time, and that

855
01:14:44.640 --> 01:14:50.359
sort of information. And I found
that Betty and Barney made identical statements about

856
01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:57.920
how many were in a certain location
at a certain time when they were together.

857
01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:02.720
Now I couldn't compare their statements when
they were apart, but they did

858
01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:12.159
describe some medicinal procedures that were the
same. They described the room and they

859
01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:17.199
gave details that were not in Betty's
dream material, so it was some of

860
01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:23.760
that. It was subtle, but
it was very significant, particularly the numbers

861
01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:30.039
of individuals, the way they moved, particularly at the capture and at the

862
01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:38.239
release, and the sequential order even
in which Betty recalled the information under hypnosis

863
01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:45.800
was different from the sequential order in
which she arranged her dreams. So it's

864
01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:51.439
all in captured, very long captured
the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience.

865
01:15:53.359 --> 01:15:59.119
But there is a great deal of
information there about my comparative analysis, and

866
01:15:59.239 --> 01:16:03.279
so people know. You can go
to Kathleen Dashmarten dot com and we'll mention

867
01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:09.119
that again later or Amazon to get
the book captured. And one of the

868
01:16:09.159 --> 01:16:14.680
things you talk about is the use
and misuse of hypnosis and abduction investigations.

869
01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:20.279
You feel that the hypnosis was accurate
in this case, what do you feel

870
01:16:20.319 --> 01:16:26.079
are do you feel that hypnosis is
often misused? And how is that?

871
01:16:28.119 --> 01:16:31.199
Well? The thing I want to
stress is, first of all, doctor

872
01:16:31.319 --> 01:16:39.119
Simon was a professional. He was
a mental health professional, highly skilled in

873
01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:45.359
the use of hypnosis. In addition
to that, he didn't believe that UFOs

874
01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:49.520
were real. He remained skeptical,
didn't he about the nature of what had

875
01:16:49.560 --> 01:16:56.159
happened to the hills. Yes,
he did remain skeptical about it. He

876
01:16:56.800 --> 01:17:04.920
looked for psychological explanation for the whole
thing. He did concede that anything was

877
01:17:05.039 --> 01:17:10.960
possible, and he stated to Betty
and Barney on the hypnosis tape that it

878
01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:15.119
was just a matter of having to
wait and see. They didn't see if

879
01:17:15.159 --> 01:17:19.319
this happened to anybody else. If
it happened to somebody else, maybe he

880
01:17:19.359 --> 01:17:26.920
could believe that it had happened to
them. So that's what he stated.

881
01:17:27.359 --> 01:17:35.239
He later in the mid seventies,
came out and publicly stated that he felt

882
01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:42.920
that Barney had absorbed Betty's dreams and
that was the reason for my comparative analysis.

883
01:17:43.039 --> 01:17:46.239
He thought that Betty had restated her
dreams on the hypnosis and that Barney

884
01:17:46.279 --> 01:17:53.600
had absorbed the information and simply stated
Betty's dream material. So your analysis would

885
01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:58.600
disprove that because the dreams were different
than the hypnosis. That is true,

886
01:17:58.960 --> 01:18:05.960
absolutely true, And that's what is
so significant about my findings. Very interesting.

887
01:18:06.439 --> 01:18:11.359
So then when it comes to in
more modern cases, because it does

888
01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:17.119
seem to that this has happened to
more people with the use of hypnosis.

889
01:18:17.159 --> 01:18:27.920
I guess what would you advise,
I would tread very cautiously. Make sure

890
01:18:28.079 --> 01:18:34.319
that you see a mental health professional
who is skilled in the use of hypnosis.

891
01:18:35.399 --> 01:18:42.520
So many people don't want to pay
someone to do hypnosis, and they'll

892
01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:47.760
go to someone who was on train
or somebody who might have taken a week

893
01:18:47.960 --> 01:18:55.479
weekend course and smoking cessation and weight
loss and that sort of thing. They're

894
01:18:55.680 --> 01:19:01.399
not clinically trained. It's very,
very import important to have someone who's clinically

895
01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:11.199
trained because it's a traumatic experience for
most people. And the degree of trauma

896
01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:18.239
that doctor Simon saw that was released
in Betty's and Findings hypnosis sessions was greater

897
01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:24.720
than anything that he saw when he
was treating the shell shot victims of World

898
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:30.600
War Two. It was a life
threatening experience. And to be in the

899
01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:38.279
hands of someone who really isn't skilled
in the use of hypnosis and isn't a

900
01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:43.920
mental health professional, to me,
is putting yourself in danger. It's sort

901
01:19:43.960 --> 01:19:47.079
of like saying, well, I
can't afford to have this appendect in me,

902
01:19:47.239 --> 01:19:50.640
so I think I'll go down to
the butcher and ask him to do

903
01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:57.319
it for me, you know,
to me, it's equivalent to that,

904
01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:02.119
so I would tread very life and
very cautiously. I agree with you,

905
01:20:02.159 --> 01:20:05.159
and it does, unfortunately seem,
especially in this field, a lot of

906
01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:14.319
the people who are not trained therapists, psychologists or psychotherapists are often the researchers

907
01:20:14.319 --> 01:20:18.520
who get highlighted in this field,
whereas it seems like that there are people

908
01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:23.199
who are trained for the therapy are
just kind of they're not as self promoting,

909
01:20:23.319 --> 01:20:27.119
so they don't get their work doesn't
get as much attention in this field

910
01:20:27.119 --> 01:20:30.239
as I feel it should. I
agree with you, yes, that that

911
01:20:30.279 --> 01:20:40.479
teem seems to be true, and
I do think that we really you should

912
01:20:40.680 --> 01:20:46.640
think twice about having hypnosis. I
think that there is a time when hypnosis

913
01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:54.119
is very important, and that is
when there is a multiple witness abduction.

914
01:20:54.920 --> 01:21:00.680
I think that that's important to researchers
and investigators because you can do a comparative

915
01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:11.479
analysis and you can obtain statistical evidence
that this was or was not a real

916
01:21:11.479 --> 01:21:16.039
event. You can't get that when
you hypnotize only one person. You know,

917
01:21:16.119 --> 01:21:25.199
it's more for curiosity and information,
but there's no guarantee that what the

918
01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:31.000
information that the individual is giving is
accurate. There's one other piece of physical

919
01:21:31.039 --> 01:21:34.560
evidence I wanted to mention also,
and you had brought it up a little

920
01:21:34.560 --> 01:21:41.399
bit with Phillis Budinger an analysis she
says she did on the dress that Betty

921
01:21:41.439 --> 01:21:45.760
Hill was wearing that evening. She
also found other physical evidence in the form

922
01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:54.720
of some sort of chemical Is that
correct? Yes, this was I think

923
01:21:54.760 --> 01:22:00.760
you're talking about the DNA analysis.
Okay, that was impeded because there was

924
01:22:00.840 --> 01:22:10.960
some kind of inhibitory substance on the
dress that prevented a full DNA chain from

925
01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:15.680
being lifted off the dress. So
they had to do the kind of investigation

926
01:22:15.840 --> 01:22:19.640
that they might do, for example, on dinosaur bones where they might not

927
01:22:19.880 --> 01:22:30.760
have a full DNA sample, and
they had to use a medium in which

928
01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:35.520
they attempted to grow a full DNA
chain. As I understand that I've taken

929
01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:44.199
courses in genetics, but I'm not
atois. So they they did find some

930
01:22:44.359 --> 01:22:55.199
healed in some and some mouse and
some spider DNA, but that that's pretty

931
01:22:55.239 --> 01:22:59.600
much the extent of it. I
you know, I don't I don't know

932
01:22:59.640 --> 01:23:04.279
if we can even identify alien DNA, if there is a thing. So

933
01:23:04.319 --> 01:23:11.800
they didn't find anything anomalist there.
Well, Phillips has said that she did

934
01:23:11.880 --> 01:23:19.039
have anomalous findings, that there was
oil on the dress and that this oil

935
01:23:19.439 --> 01:23:26.760
did not come from Betty's body,
that this was an anomalous finding. So

936
01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:31.800
yes, there were anomalous findings according
to Phyllis, and Phillis made the statement

937
01:23:32.439 --> 01:23:39.199
that she was convinced after she had
done her analysis of Betty's dress. And

938
01:23:39.239 --> 01:23:45.159
I'm talking about not only chemical but
the forensic analysis of the tears on Betty's

939
01:23:45.239 --> 01:23:48.520
dress, that two inch chair at
the top of the zipper on one side,

940
01:23:48.520 --> 01:23:53.479
the one inch chair on the other
side. The pink powdery substance was

941
01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:59.680
compared to the blue substance that she
wasn't able to identify. All of that

942
01:23:59.880 --> 01:24:05.199
was anomalist. No laboratory has ever
been able to identify what that pink powdery

943
01:24:05.319 --> 01:24:12.119
substance is. Gotcha. So another
addition to the story. And now I

944
01:24:12.159 --> 01:24:15.880
guess that since we're wrapping up,
we've only got about five minutes, and

945
01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:20.479
probably my last question will be Luckily
you're going to be speaking out the Congress,

946
01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:25.119
so you'll be elaborating on some of
the critics of the Betty and Barney

947
01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:30.319
Hill story and why some of these
arguments don't hold up, such as the

948
01:24:30.359 --> 01:24:32.760
one you talked about with Simon just
now. But I did want to ask

949
01:24:32.800 --> 01:24:40.359
you if you kind of now have
had a lifelong interest and involvement in UFO

950
01:24:40.479 --> 01:24:46.119
research, having a very important position
with the largest UFO organization and very professional

951
01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:56.000
organization. Move on, what how
did you feel compelled to donate so much

952
01:24:56.000 --> 01:25:02.239
of your life to exploring this this
anomaly. Oh, I had actually had

953
01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:08.039
a professional career, first as a
social worker, then as a teacher,

954
01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:15.840
and then as an education services coordinator. But about twenty one years ago,

955
01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:24.960
now I couldn't stop thinking about doing
what I really wanted to do, and

956
01:25:25.119 --> 01:25:31.199
that was to investigate my aunt and
uncle's UFO experience. I thought about that

957
01:25:31.479 --> 01:25:38.119
all of my life. I was
compelled to do it, but I didn't

958
01:25:38.239 --> 01:25:41.760
have the time. I was working
full time, I was raising children,

959
01:25:42.439 --> 01:25:48.880
And finally I had the opportunity where
I was able to embark upon a new

960
01:25:48.920 --> 01:25:57.840
career, really with my husband's financial
support, and investigate this case on my

961
01:25:58.000 --> 01:26:01.560
own. And it was the self
fulfilling to be able to do that,

962
01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:06.840
to be able to interview Betty.
Betty and I were very close, and

963
01:26:09.199 --> 01:26:16.079
I played Devil's Advocate. I have
hours of taped interviews with Betty. She

964
01:26:16.439 --> 01:26:21.199
gave me all of her files to
review. I was the trustee of her

965
01:26:21.359 --> 01:26:27.920
escape. She gave me all of
the hypnosis tapes so that I could transcribe

966
01:26:27.960 --> 01:26:32.840
them for comparative analysis. We talked
for hours and hours and hours. I

967
01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:38.000
can't tell you how many I was
at her house, a couple of days

968
01:26:38.039 --> 01:26:43.399
a week for years doing this investigation. A little bit at a time.

969
01:26:43.840 --> 01:26:49.399
She and I went to the different
encounter sites. We traveled along the close

970
01:26:49.560 --> 01:26:56.079
encounter route. We went to the
abduction site over and over and over again.

971
01:26:56.600 --> 01:27:00.760
So I really had a good feel
for it. And I must say

972
01:27:00.399 --> 01:27:06.640
that it is the most interesting and
fulfilling job I have ever had, but

973
01:27:06.800 --> 01:27:12.960
probably the lowest paying, right.
I think a lot of people feel that

974
01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:15.840
way. And I know, you
know, you watched the interviews with Betty

975
01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:19.199
Hill, and I know she touched
a lot of people's lives, people I've

976
01:27:19.239 --> 01:27:23.920
known and been able to work with. She seemed like a very fun and

977
01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:28.439
charming person to be around. She
was she was, She had a great

978
01:27:28.479 --> 01:27:32.760
sense of humor. She was so
bright and so well read, and just

979
01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:38.600
had this sort of why sense of
humor that you know would just crack you

980
01:27:38.720 --> 01:27:43.399
up. She was great and still
Yeah, like you said, this is

981
01:27:43.399 --> 01:27:46.680
one of the most extraordinary cases in
this field. And now you've looked at

982
01:27:46.760 --> 01:27:53.720
quite a few of them. Yes, I have. I after I investigated

983
01:27:53.760 --> 01:28:00.560
Betty's case, and of course even
during that I was investigating more abduction and

984
01:28:00.640 --> 01:28:06.079
reading all that I could about it. And there were family members who had

985
01:28:06.359 --> 01:28:15.000
missing time experiences besides Betty that I
have worked with, and also other people

986
01:28:15.039 --> 01:28:19.960
who believe that they might have been
abductive. So I'm learning more and more

987
01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:26.439
all of the time. This is
an ongoing learning process for me. All

988
01:28:26.560 --> 01:28:29.560
right, Well, thank you so
much for being on the show. Remember

989
01:28:29.640 --> 01:28:34.640
you can go to Kathleen Ashmartin dot
com for more information and for her books,

990
01:28:35.560 --> 01:28:40.479
and you can go to Ufocongress dot
com for when more information on when

991
01:28:40.520 --> 01:28:44.479
she'll speak so you can meet Betty
and get your book signed. Thank you

992
01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:47.800
so much for being on the show, but we are out of time.

993
01:28:48.560 --> 01:28:53.119
It was my pleasure. Thank you
so much for having me. Thank you.

994
01:28:53.239 --> 01:28:55.840
It was great. It was finally, you know, good to get

995
01:28:55.880 --> 01:29:01.319
all of the details on this extraordinary
case firsthand. So next week, ladies

996
01:29:01.359 --> 01:29:05.920
and gentlemen, we have Richard Dolan, UFO historian. He's also another speaker

997
01:29:06.239 --> 01:29:10.800
at the UFO Congress this year.
It's been about a year since we've talked

998
01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:13.359
to him. We're going to talk
to him about his new book AD.

999
01:29:13.560 --> 01:29:15.079
We've had Bryce Abel, the co
author of that, on the show.

1000
01:29:15.359 --> 01:29:19.800
We're going to talk about the Congress
and some of his latest version of UFO's

1001
01:29:19.840 --> 01:29:24.199
in the National Security State and ask
him, hey, when's issue number three

1002
01:29:24.279 --> 01:29:28.600
coming out. Thank you for listening
to Open Minds Radio. Don't forget to

1003
01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:31.640
open Visit open minds dot tv for
more UFO news. Talk to you next

1004
01:29:31.640 --> 01:30:42.439
week, US USA, US