1 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:28,199 Hello and welcome. I am Kerry Anne, and you are listening to Seventh 2 00:00:28,239 --> 00:00:33,240 Sanctum. Thank you for joining us, and tonight I am joined and with 3 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,520 my usual co host Natalie. Hi. Good evening, and it's my team 4 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,479 to introduce our guest. It's been two months in the making. We've been 5 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:49,000 flooded, snowed off, rearranged Christmas, so it's a real pleasure to welcome 6 00:00:49,079 --> 00:00:54,840 him finally and meet him. Finally. I've got Scott Scott richardson read of 7 00:00:55,079 --> 00:01:00,920 Kayak's herbarium. Did I say that right, Scott? The kayak kayak like 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,120 the almost like the can't pronounce the Scottish properly. So Kayak Siberian who I've 9 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,840 been following on Instagram for a little while now, so I'm quite interesting and 10 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:21,920 excited to talk to you finally. So that is yeah. So, and 11 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,319 your website, I pulled off the description off your Facebook if you don't mind. 12 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:33,120 It's you put your Scottish old world folk tales, folk magic, herbalism 13 00:01:33,159 --> 00:01:38,480 and recipes from traditional Scottish sources. So if you would like to tell us 14 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,879 a what kayak means, because I've a curious about that and a little bit 15 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:51,200 about your website and how you came to sort of put this online. Yeah, 16 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,319 just first off, thanks for having me. It's really nice to be 17 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,040 here, and thank you for putting up with the flooding and the snowing and 18 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:01,319 all of the rest of it. It has been to two months. It 19 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,760 has been roughly two months since she kind of got in contact. So yeah, 20 00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:15,560 finally here and caffeinated just enough I think the conversation. So this is 21 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,439 like a long story, but you'll be here for it, like if we 22 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,159 like. And now the podcast is finished. Thanks very much, got for 23 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,280 telling you all about that. So back in the early nineties, I'm aging 24 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:30,840 myself when I talk about this. I have a picture that I will show 25 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:35,080 you which is really really funny, but we're on a podcast and you won't 26 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,360 be able to see it. But it's me in nineteen ninety five standing with 27 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:46,560 a bunch of likely looking folk in a witches covered actually just outside of Wales. 28 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:50,759 So like back in nineteen ninety five, I kind of got involved in 29 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:58,520 the page and Wiccan scene a little bit. But as these things turn out 30 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,159 to be, it turns out to be a little bit with a little bit 31 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:06,360 weird, a little bit strange and not necessarily what it was on the tin, 32 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,240 but at that time they used a lot of gallic words like sooy and 33 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:17,240 belton ay and all of these things. And if you're familiar with the wick 34 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:22,639 and Wheel of the Year or the Druidic Wheel of the Year, you'll notice 35 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:28,599 that it's got gallic words that sit in it that kind of moved through it. 36 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,919 And I was kind of like, why is a bunch of people outside 37 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:37,479 Wales no offense to the Welsh or the Welsh marshs or anything like that. 38 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,560 Why are they using these gallic words in this kind of which meant to be 39 00:03:40,639 --> 00:03:46,879 like land based celebration stuff. So I've kind of left all of that behind 40 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:51,919 a little bit, but I'm still really really interested and kind of worked away 41 00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:59,000 on it in my own way in the intervening times. But meanwhile I did 42 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,560 a lot of work with people in communities. That's a whole different story how 43 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:06,719 these kind of beliefs kind of intertwine with that. But I'm originally from Scotland. 44 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,319 I was born in Scotland and then kind of as a kid raised in 45 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,719 the wire Forest basically I don't know if you know where that is, but 46 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,240 it's kind of on the Welsh border, and then I moved back up to 47 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:26,399 Scotland when I was eighteen nineteen years old and then started to look for the 48 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,199 kind of folk history and the folklore and the folk belief of Scotland through that 49 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:36,319 lens that kind of like esoteric if you want, is esoteric a good word 50 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,120 to use. I don't know if it is a good word to use, 51 00:04:39,319 --> 00:04:43,720 but that kind of alternative view on things, and it kind of led me 52 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:53,199 into politics of Scotland and land use and people and how we try not to 53 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:59,360 go into the whole like I'm on the Scots chat here, but we have 54 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,399 lots of kind words for land use. And then we had the clearances and 55 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:05,519 all of this stuff in history, and that kind of the way that different 56 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:11,879 the imperialism rubbed up against working class culture in Scotland's a whole another podcast and 57 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:17,360 all differentituy, but it was really interesting to find how belief in the other 58 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:23,040 world, if you like, was very much intrinsic to the belief of like 59 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:30,680 people's attachment to land and a way of life that was kind of forcefully removed 60 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:38,759 a little bit. And so skipping ahead sometime ten years ago actually it will 61 00:05:38,759 --> 00:05:45,079 be April this year that I've been writing on my website for ten years. 62 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:53,360 Ten years ago this April, I decided to put on or out in the 63 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,079 world stuff that I was finding that I thought other people might find interesting who 64 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,959 had a kind of point of view on that kind of stuff. So it 65 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:09,920 kind of links belief Scottish belief, Gallic belief in particular, but also Scott's 66 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:14,519 belief and some Anglo Saxon belief and Roman belief and all of the kind of 67 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,519 melting pot that is Scotland actually, because it's not when people think of Scotland 68 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:24,920 as a people, we're actually like a whole bunch of people Viking, Anglo 69 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:32,199 Saxon, Roman, Gallic, all sorts of Scandinavian. Where am I going 70 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,720 with that? But basically, yeah, all of that kind of stuff, 71 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:42,319 and how it links to a different way of relating to people in place and 72 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,959 politics. One of the things I'm really passionate about is stuff that we've maybe 73 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,839 forgotten or had removed from culture and how it helps us relate to the problems 74 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:58,360 that we're facing today with like the way that we may be care for our 75 00:06:58,439 --> 00:07:02,399 dead, for instance, which is a huge issue. It's like really sanctified 76 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,199 if you like, and not in a holy way, I guess, but 77 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,800 bodies are kept in a fridge pretty much that you go and don't really touch, 78 00:07:11,839 --> 00:07:15,240 whereas traditionally we would have spent a long time kind of morning and grieving 79 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,360 for people in a different relationship to death all together. And also how we 80 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:25,720 relate to the land that we're on in an ecology sense, and a kind 81 00:07:25,759 --> 00:07:31,000 of how the belief in the other world also ties in with ecology and politics 82 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,920 and all of the rest of it like that. So that's how it got 83 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:41,079 started. So it's still going. It's pretty popular, and I've been on 84 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:48,040 various like TV shows and radio stuff talking about that kind of would rekindling be 85 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:51,399 a good word to use, or that just kind of resurgence of things, 86 00:07:51,439 --> 00:08:01,680 but also trying to correct some of the kind of new agey kind of woo 87 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:07,240 stuff that we are inheriting with that as well. Not that there's any harm 88 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:13,360 in that if that's what you are all about, but it's what can sometimes 89 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:16,360 happen is it starts to override like a cultural story, and we kind of 90 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,920 that starts to get put in the bin, and then we only start to 91 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:24,480 think about one version of a history that's not necessarily like the folk history of 92 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:28,879 the people that were here before. So, my god, that was a 93 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:33,720 really long answer to your question that so sorry, it was like, to 94 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,000 be fair, it sounds like it's actually a very comp because when I was 95 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:43,799 reading your articles, I was like thinking, you know, because I first 96 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,919 followed you because of the hoobs and the you know, the folk magic and 97 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,799 traditions with the hibs. But the more I read them, it is actually 98 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,200 a really complicated subject because, like you say, it's not separate to the 99 00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:01,600 culture you're in. So when you start losing that connection to that understanding of 100 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,559 things, like you say, the way it affects like your idea of land 101 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:11,240 and land ownership, and when you get sort of a different system coming in 102 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:18,759 on top of it and overriding what was an original understanding of of ownership and 103 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:22,759 land a little bit like like you know with the Native Americans where they said 104 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,639 they only borrowed from the land, they couldn't own it. Whereas then you 105 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,200 bring in sort of, like you know, different systems where all of a 106 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,960 sudden you can own the land, which then changes your relationship to that the 107 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,799 spirits of the place, the energy of the place, and how you live 108 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,679 in it. So it is, like you say, you've simplified it quite 109 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:48,639 quite admirably. Actually right, it's because it's like it's a massive subject and 110 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:54,679 people and culture in place, and like it can feel a bit nationalist as 111 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,720 well when I'm talking about it. But that's why I emphasized that Scotland is 112 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:03,600 a melting pot of influences and the culture. I have friends in the traveling 113 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:09,399 community that talk about the UK or Great Britain or whatever, this island, 114 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,279 these isles as just a thumb print on the map of the world, and 115 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,360 it's done so much to so many different cultures. But the fact that we 116 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:24,759 are a thumbprint of an island means that we have always had transient populations move 117 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,000 in and out all the time. And it's that blending that's really, really, 118 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,080 actually a beautiful thing. And you can see if you're a folklore story, 119 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,320 you study folk magic, or you study hobalism, you can see the 120 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:41,960 influx of different influences. I'm doing a lot of things in my hands here. 121 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:48,000 If you're you can see the influx with a lot of different influences on 122 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,080 those traditions that you can trace back some of the traditions that we have in 123 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,759 Scotland to troll them, and then the Sami and then Finland. Actually it's 124 00:10:56,879 --> 00:11:01,360 like quite a kind of cultural in route into a folk magic traditions up north, 125 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:09,000 especially in the northeast. But in terms of kind of land and place 126 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:15,480 is that we have like a phrase in Gallic called ducas I can't say, 127 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:22,159 probably ucas, and like a phrase like toba and ducas which means the well 128 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,759 of knowledge or the well of tradition. But ducas comes from a word meaning 129 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,440 almost like indigenity but not quite but like it means knowing, but it also 130 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:39,120 means place, and it also means culture, and it also means the land 131 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,279 that you live on and where you live, and there's words for I'm not 132 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:46,879 going to attempt it in Galic because it starts to sound like I don't know, 133 00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:50,559 I'm having a bit of a seizure, and no offense to Gallic at 134 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,080 all, but it's like it's hard for me to pronounce, but it means 135 00:11:54,159 --> 00:12:00,679 red to reindigenize yourself to place, and the idea of ducas and the knowledge 136 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,240 that you get in place is kind of like ownership responsibility, but it's reciprocal. 137 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:13,919 This idea of reciprocal relationship is like really huge. And when the when 138 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,200 the clearances happened there Duke has this like right to crofting and right to work 139 00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:22,919 the land that we did. There was no legal basis for it, so 140 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:30,039 it was removed and kind of overridden by sheep. Ask people in Scotland about 141 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,360 sheep, and everyone's like either loves them or hates them. It's it's just 142 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:39,679 because they represent this kind of coming in of and I'm going to use imperialism 143 00:12:39,799 --> 00:12:43,799 as the shortcut word for that, but like the kind of interested economic forces 144 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:48,919 that wanted the land. And it's not necessarily like it as some people say 145 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:54,519 it's a solely English invasion. It was just the elite that we have a 146 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,559 problem with today doing what they've always done with everyone that they've always done it 147 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,039 with and still can to do that. They kind of didn't recognize this right. 148 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:09,360 So through the clearances and where people went and the kind of famine and 149 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:15,080 the genocide in Ireland and all of that kind of stuff, slowly there was 150 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:20,080 what's called the highland Land Movement, which was based on the Irish Land Movement, 151 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:24,480 which led and this is a whole other story, but it eventually led 152 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,840 to the formation of the Scottish National Party and what we have now today in 153 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:33,240 Scotland is the SMP, which is the Scottish National Party, and way back 154 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,360 when they were actually based on this kind of like highland Land Movement, which 155 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:43,480 was based on this concept of ducas and belonging and reciprocal nature with the land. 156 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:46,799 So it's kind of even t like, as you said, Natalie, 157 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:50,399 you can't really if you pull one thread, it's like you suddenly touched on 158 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:58,320 everything else an entire room. Yeah, because it's like the thing that I 159 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:07,360 was quite curee about is because you're such a melting part of traditions and different 160 00:14:07,399 --> 00:14:11,879 cultures in their how do you go about separating out, like you say, 161 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:18,679 what's the New Age interpretation and the modern sort of wick and slash druidic interpretation 162 00:14:18,879 --> 00:14:26,000 from the Old law? It's like, how do they are there certain themes 163 00:14:26,039 --> 00:14:30,360 that are repeating in the old law that help you to recognize what it is 164 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,600 or is it just because you base it on historical sources that are older or 165 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:41,519 word of mouth tradition obviously if you're speaking to the right people, how do 166 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:46,879 you go about sort of like figuring out which is which you kind of throw 167 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,000 the store up in the air and see where it lands. No, there 168 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,080 are like ar traditions. We can't put a pin in it and say that 169 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,480 FO one hundred old, and we can't. There are certain things that we 170 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:05,720 can look at. I primarily look at the kind of early modern Scottish sources, 171 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:11,600 so that's kind of the Witchcraft trial type stuff, and that has its 172 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:20,360 own issues because it's men most of the time, who are elite men looking 173 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:24,559 at the narrative of working class people and they really really wanted to prove that 174 00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:31,360 the devil was real. So when there was like a folk belief, particularly 175 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:37,879 a working class belief that kind of verged on the diabolic or malefic aram like 176 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,919 that act of like cursing, then they would be like, ah, the 177 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,279 demons, and then you get all of the demon rhetoric. It's kind of 178 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,279 like a white man's masturbation fantasy, a lot of it to you. And 179 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,600 I don't mind saying that on your podcast because it's a bit like really, 180 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,440 then they did what with what? And it was like fascinated by the details 181 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:02,080 of carnality rather than like actual other things, because it was I don't know 182 00:16:02,159 --> 00:16:06,080 what was going on in their minds at the time. But a lot of 183 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,440 people think it was kind of only women that were charged. It's not. 184 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:14,440 It's kind of like twenty percent men in Scotland who were also child as witches. 185 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:23,120 But men had means in the time and they still do so they were 186 00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:27,039 able to, Like this sounds weird, but higher the equivalency of lawyers or 187 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:34,799 protection or pay money to not get into the stained sticky wicket, as women 188 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,120 would have no recourse to funds and those kinds of things, or that that 189 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:45,039 kind of patriarchal play that was happening. So there was probably a lot more 190 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:51,919 women, sorry, men accused of malif the karam and witchcraft who probably we 191 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,240 don't have records of them because they escaped it. And the ones that we 192 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,039 do have records of near where I live, of men committed suicide in jail 193 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,440 because if they were charged and found guilty, they would have had their lands 194 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:11,000 taken off them and it would have gone to the courts, so they would 195 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,519 they killed them sort of bleak really fast, but they would have killed themselves 196 00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:21,720 first so their family could still hold onto the land because the charges wouldn't have 197 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:29,200 then been placed. So in terms of kind of like those the question of 198 00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:33,279 practice. It's kind of like really unpicking these and if you've read frial documents, 199 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:37,920 they're literally written in a different link, which they're really hard to read. 200 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,559 It's like, what on earth is this? But we also have like 201 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:47,000 our cultural stories, and we have our oral histories as they still remain, 202 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:52,960 and a lot of those stories are like the elite versions of history that the 203 00:17:52,079 --> 00:18:00,759 kind of I'm going to say, Anglo American pagan Wiccan druid seeing kind of 204 00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:03,000 picked up on because it was very much like a kind of eightiest thing that 205 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,839 the seventies thing where this started to become more problematic than it is today. 206 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:17,519 There's a lot better authors out now, thank god, ironically. But yeah, 207 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,720 so unpicking practices is like, for me, it's kind of like forensic 208 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:29,519 folklore archaeology. It's like really going in and kind of not just looking at 209 00:18:29,559 --> 00:18:33,279 a witchcraft child, but also looking at like a folk tale and a folk 210 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:41,319 story and like historical sites that exist on our old maps and like archaeological evidence 211 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,119 as well. So it kind of starts to triangulate the practices that kind of 212 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:52,160 existed around those times. And I'm probably like sure of like two percent of 213 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:57,279 what we maybe got up to you, but there are like threads that you 214 00:18:57,319 --> 00:19:00,359 can see, and I just want to paraphrase as well, like I have 215 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:06,079 nothing against wickens and traditional witches and druids and all of this stuff. I 216 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,319 think it's like, actually, it's on the thing now, it's like its 217 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,480 own religion, and people are doing really lovely things with it. But it's 218 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:19,079 not necessarily like based on what I'm finding in all documents and traditions that are 219 00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:26,160 before before that, and I'm not necessarily trying to reconstruct it either, Like 220 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,039 my writing is more there to be like, hey have you seen this like 221 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:36,720 really beautiful thing that people used to do together to honor the dead or kind 222 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,759 of relate to other people in their community, And then what people choose to 223 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:45,000 do with it is kind of up to them, Like I'm not placing it, 224 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:48,799 if you know what I mean. But you did write actually, but 225 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:56,319 the very early communities actually I didn't like witches, did they because with your 226 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:03,200 right system of reciprocity, it's like to them at that time, a witch 227 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:08,160 was seen as somebody that was taking and not actually giving an imbalance with Do 228 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,960 you want to just explain that a little bit, because we got to distinguish 229 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,559 between modern witchcraft and what the pre You know, the traditional idea of witchcraft 230 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:23,079 was in relation to the folk magic, which was different. So a witch 231 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,839 was still seen as being something different if I understood correctly what you were trying 232 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,960 to say. Yeah, so the witches in the stories that we'd like, 233 00:20:34,079 --> 00:20:37,000 they like. I guess the best way to look at it is if you 234 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:41,839 live in a like an animistic culture, which Scotland and Gallic culture and Welsh 235 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:48,160 culture and Irish culture, and actually before the Romans came along, an Anglo 236 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,680 sack like the islands were this kind of more animistic based stuff. And you 237 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,480 can dig around in any parts of the island of Great Britain and you can 238 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:02,440 find these stories that are about animism and relationship to the environment. So it's 239 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,839 not particularly a Scottish phenomenon, is kind of what I want to say, 240 00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:11,279 it's kind of actually across Europe to it connects is all. So in an 241 00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:15,880 animistic society, when there's based on reciprocity, when you're kind of helping each 242 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,559 other out because you didn't have supermarkets and all that, someone would be baking 243 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:22,559 bread, someone would be laying eggs. Well, they wouldn't be laying eggs, 244 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,480 but the chickens would be. I guess there'd be a lot of people 245 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:29,359 doing a lot of stuff because you can all do it yourself, and it 246 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,720 would be a community effort to kind of make butter, excuse be burping, 247 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,119 make butter, make beer, or do all of these things. Right, 248 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,559 So if you had somebody from outside the community who was then kind of coming 249 00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:48,519 in and like I'm going to steal all of the kind of the torah, 250 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:56,480 which is the fortune or the goodness from stuff, or actually steal your butter, 251 00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:00,079 or I'm not going to contribute to the community, but I'm going to 252 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,519 take from it, if you want to look at it that way. Kind 253 00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:07,279 of witch is where the first capitalists, if you like, because they were 254 00:22:07,319 --> 00:22:08,599 like, well, I'm not going to contribute, but I will take for 255 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:15,000 my own self. And that's why communities were like, we must protect ourselves 256 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:19,319 from people who don't contribute. And this is the kind of the the original 257 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,799 historic version of a witch. And that's why when you look at all the 258 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:29,319 charms in Scottish folk magic, they're all like to stop a witch in their 259 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:32,920 tracks to do all of these things, because they are people who would just 260 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,599 be taking from the community. So they're kind of like a bogie person, 261 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,720 do you know what I mean, Like a kind of a force that lived 262 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:48,039 somewhere or a person who took a lot from other people. And it's not 263 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,200 like what we know as the modern version of a witch today. It's like 264 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,079 very very different. But that's why a lot of the old charms and folk 265 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:03,480 magic is to do with the good folk or like the witches. Basically they 266 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:11,640 were kind of seen as forces that weren't really nice or you had to like 267 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:15,559 bargain with in terms of the good folk and stuff like that. Does that 268 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:22,160 answer the question that I think it's important to. I mean, that probably 269 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,720 is where a lot of the hysterian witch trails came from, because the original 270 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:33,000 idea behind witchcraft was a negative seeming thing. But the actual idea of the 271 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:40,960 original witch is completely different to the other definition of witch and witchcraft, which 272 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,160 is seen as being in balance with nature. So it is interesting like to 273 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,000 be distinct with the definition because like you say that the old folk to Dishes 274 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:53,400 does seem to have an obsession with stopping witches, which would support the idea 275 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,440 that witches were bad, but it wasn't it was that version of what a 276 00:23:57,599 --> 00:24:03,240 witch represented that weird at that time rather than the other thing that I was 277 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:07,599 find curious is like, like you say, a lot of the charms were 278 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,720 about the sheep, but you call them the good folk, but at the 279 00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:15,680 same time they were a bit scary sounding, So did you call them the 280 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:23,640 good folk to keep them on side? Quite more elemental in their interactions with 281 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,880 it, as in they you want them to be good, so you're going 282 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,960 to call them good just in case. The type of thing is it. 283 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:34,000 There's lots of different theories about this thatly, and one that I particularly like 284 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,240 because they're called the people of peace in some areas too, and then the 285 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,640 good folk, the good neighbors and all of this kind of stuff. Some 286 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,640 people think it was like a euphemism so they wouldn't get upset with you because 287 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,400 you're like, oh, the good folk. Sorry, that's not a traditional 288 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,200 Scottish folk magic thing with the do there at all. That's just me like 289 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,599 doing whatever. I'm not even sure what it is, but other people think 290 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:07,559 about the it's like a Venn diagram if you've got three circles that she or 291 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:14,519 the good folk could be the nature spirits or the genius loci or the genie 292 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:18,440 locorum I think is the plural Latin. Sorry to sound a bit like twat 293 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,400 when I said that. So you've got the kind of nature spirits there, 294 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,200 You've got she is kind of deity as well. Like the good Folk in 295 00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:32,039 our stories, they kind of went into their she mounds, and these are 296 00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:37,039 like the Celtic like the dog there and the Morigan and all of these kind 297 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,960 of characters, these kind of chief spirits if you like. And they're also 298 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,559 the dead at the same time too, so if you want to talk about 299 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:51,079 them, they're kind of like three in one and not three in one at 300 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,680 the same time. So people are a bit like what what are they? 301 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,839 And I think they're like an umbrella term like that. She for me is 302 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,000 like the other worldly type people, and I think trying to put a pin 303 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:04,920 in who they are is like what's the point? It will get a little 304 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:11,920 bit kind of lost in definition. But for me, I think there's a 305 00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:18,119 kind of ancestral relationship with the way that we used to work with them. 306 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,599 We have to bear in mind that the good Folk and the She and all 307 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:25,960 the rest of it, they only started getting written about in the Middle Ages, 308 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:32,720 so I think from the sixteenth century fifteenth century times, so we only 309 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:38,200 have like written down testimony from elite people from that time that talks about these 310 00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:45,839 things these other folk. One theory is, which I like to explore a 311 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,359 lot in my writing, and I'm not saying it's the only one or like 312 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,359 this is dogma, is they actually were the people of peace because they are 313 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,400 your ancestral line or the people that lived on the land before you. So 314 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:02,480 if you wanted to have peace in where you were, when people were kind 315 00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:07,359 of not crowned but made royal or chief, there was like a footprint in 316 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,359 a stone that they would stand in. And this is the stone of sconce 317 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,960 stuff that we've heard recently about Prince it's not Prince Charles anymore. It's King. 318 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:21,799 Sorry, King Charles. This footprint situation is like a foot in the 319 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,079 land and usually done in a place that's kind of significant, either on a 320 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,240 hill or there's lots of like standing stones or similar around it. And these 321 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,119 old standing stones, of course were old tombs where people were buried, like 322 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,200 en Mass a lot of the time. So if you were calling on the 323 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,279 people of peace, it's because you wanted to, you know, have peace. 324 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:48,319 So there's maybe these kind of ideas that actually they are the good neighbors 325 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:52,880 and it's not just a euphemism. Maybe that's something we've just kind of started 326 00:27:52,960 --> 00:28:00,279 to think as we've grown older in a think around these things. So, 327 00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:03,160 yeah, the jury is out, Natalie. Really why do we call it 328 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,920 not to bring their ire or actually because they are the good neighbors or the 329 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,440 people of peace or whatever. I suppose if you were relating to them back 330 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,160 then and then you disconnected from them, they probably would get a bit annoyed. 331 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:18,599 So maybe they were a lot more friendly back then when we were talking 332 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,039 to them. But it's a bit like when you have a neighbor you fall 333 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:25,319 out with, you know. So perhaps that's why they're a little bit more 334 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,200 ambiguous now, shouldn't It's not the same, you know, it's kind of 335 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:37,359 like we don't text anymore. It's kind of like you're hanging out anymore. 336 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:44,119 Because there's traditions in Scotland where we would leave like each one thing I think 337 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,440 sorts of really important to point out here as well as folk magic was for 338 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:52,680 everybody right and whitchcraft feels a bit specialist today. But like if you were 339 00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,559 a weaver, you would have a form of placating like the other folk, 340 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,480 or if you were a dairy maid, you would always leave like the first 341 00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:04,160 little pat of butter on the back of the door that you would make, 342 00:29:04,279 --> 00:29:07,160 or if you'd made whiskey, you would always pour a little bit out and 343 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,759 that was always for like the other folk, we'd have like gruk stones where 344 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:17,039 they would pour milk and all of this stuff, and it still happens in 345 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:21,920 some of the villages up in Scotland today and in Ireland especially, so it's 346 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,000 kind of like an everyday bargain thing. I'll give you a bit this, 347 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,799 and we're like, we'll just be super cool. But we stopped doing that 348 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,680 all together, right, We just kind of went, oh well. And 349 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:40,319 it's even in the oldest stories when the toad d'dan and were the whole nother 350 00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:45,640 podcast the Milaseians invaded and this is where Don became the Lord of the Dead 351 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,640 and all of this kind of stuff, and then the tod dan and who 352 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:56,680 are like the chief spirits of Ireland and Scotland at the time, kept fucking 353 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,279 over the Milaseians a little bit. To be blunt, they were like, 354 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:02,880 well, we're going to just not let you do this, and so they 355 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,880 reached a bargain basically that the Tatha da Dana would have everything under the earth 356 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,440 and the Malaysians would have everything on the top of it as long as we 357 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,839 always gave them like offerings and we were always in relationship with them. So 358 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,599 I've totally butchered that story. If anybody is listening to this from like Ireland 359 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:29,400 or Scotland, please feel free to send your hate mail to Natalie and carry 360 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,279 But yeah, so there was even an understanding in our stories that it was 361 00:30:33,359 --> 00:30:37,319 a relationship that we were in and as long as we kept the relationship going, 362 00:30:38,359 --> 00:30:44,880 bad stuff wouldn't happen to our communities and to our to our folk that 363 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,240 we live with. So yeah, it's kind of when we've lost that a 364 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:55,519 lot I think imagine a lot of that is due to the displacement as well, 365 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:02,119 because if you because the traditions very localized in many ways, as soon 366 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,599 as you're not in that local area, traditions in a weird kind of way, 367 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,240 no longer relevant to that particular spirit because you can't access them. So 368 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:15,599 you have to you know, in every presumably every area has spirits that perhaps 369 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:22,039 want things slightly differently anyway, So sort of transplanting traditions into another like you 370 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:25,559 said, you know in historically, with you having a lot of the displacement 371 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:32,720 happening, I should imagine it's very difficult to maintain contact anyway in a way. 372 00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:40,640 Yeah, Robert, one of the antiquarians, was talking about the diaspora 373 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:48,480 and how people lost their ability to see the future because they moved away and 374 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:53,759 so they lost their connection with their dead and their place. Like it's based 375 00:31:55,079 --> 00:32:00,559 like the bioregional animism and the stories that moved I I kind of suggest that 376 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:05,240 the tech moved with people. And I don't mean that like the iPhones or 377 00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:08,319 whatever, but kind of is I guess at the time, like we traveled 378 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:15,240 with the knowledge of how to, but we lost the connection with place a 379 00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:21,839 bit. And there's lots of schools of thoughts of this. But there are 380 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:27,519 particular she mans in Scotland and Ireland which have names where people live and there's 381 00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,880 a story And when I say people, I mean like people of the other 382 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,279 world live, and they kind of say, maybe this is the this is 383 00:32:36,359 --> 00:32:40,279 localized, whereas other people are like you can access the other world from wherever, 384 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:46,359 and things can move around and it's kind of like, well, I 385 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,559 can't speak to that, do you know what I mean? But it's kind 386 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:52,480 of like in our traditions, they were very localized, as you say, 387 00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:59,240 Natalie, kind of the river like the River Seven if you lived near Wales 388 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:01,279 or anywhere, the River Thames or the River de they all have like an 389 00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:07,960 attendant spirit in them. And we have like really terrifying stories in Scotland about 390 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:16,519 like rivers wanting sacrifices and stuff like we'll take two people a year. I 391 00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:22,039 mean, that's terrifying enough from its own literally, and there was like locks 392 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:24,519 with all lockins with like their own attendant spirits in it and everything. But 393 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:30,119 it was very localized stuff. But if we look at kind of animism as 394 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,480 the tech, it travels with people, and we would have traveled with that, 395 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,480 and wherever we were, we would have had an understanding that there was 396 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:43,119 something here that was from another place that we needed to probably be in partnership 397 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,359 with. And there's lots of work done by Mike. Oh this is when 398 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,400 I start to say people's names and they're wrong and people start semi horrible direct 399 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:59,039 messages. I think Michael Newton is a famous, famous that's a loose word. 400 00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:06,240 Oh, very well known academic in Americas who trained in Edinburgh, has 401 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,239 re writ really beautiful books, who did a lot of study around when the 402 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,159 Gaels first met the First Nations people in America and some of the stories that 403 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:22,239 they shared in comment and not all of it is what we're led to believe 404 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:29,599 of like colonization. Some of it's kind of reciprocal understanding with one another, 405 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:35,400 to a lot of it is hurt people hurting people, right enough, But 406 00:34:35,519 --> 00:34:40,119 there is some really beautiful examples of sharing in community, and that's something that 407 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:46,880 I'm really interested in too. We hear often the stories of harm that we 408 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,320 do, but where are the stories of resistance that we don't get told? 409 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,400 And there's lots of them, you know, loads them that we don't get 410 00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,760 heard. And a lot of it is working class history, which is stuff 411 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,920 we don't get told because we just get the elite version of stuff. And 412 00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:07,400 sort of like finding out these stories is that kind of link back to like, 413 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:13,840 actually we were communities and we weren't what we were led to believe or 414 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,199 have been led to believe in our histories of things. And we find that 415 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,480 read through I think through our folk editions and our folk magic editions and histories 416 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,639 together, I have the meta. I've been recently always reading about the Vikings, 417 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:30,159 and I was just sort of like you realized that the world but then 418 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,119 wasn't what we're led to believe. We're always led to believe that they were 419 00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:37,280 backwards and this and the arp. But like you know, when you look, 420 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,039 you were looking at the Vikings that were extremely well traveled, you know, 421 00:35:42,199 --> 00:35:46,599 and certain of the Vikings sort of lineages were actually like really good traders, 422 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,599 and they were actually you know, always this, that and the other. 423 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,800 And you're thinking, well, we've got this this historical version of what 424 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,880 they're supposed to be. But when you actually look, like you say, 425 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,079 you look, you look in in the history, you've find that what you're 426 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:06,239 taught is too reductionist, and like you said, it does tend to seem 427 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,840 to err on the negative rather than well, actually this was also happening at 428 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,519 the same time, and these things were also happening, so it isn't just 429 00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:17,679 that it's also this, you know, And I think it does put a 430 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,719 different perspective on things, Like you say it perhaps it is the elite version 431 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,840 of events, so it's like, well of course they were stupid because they're 432 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,159 not us type thing, you know, and they didn't want to do this, 433 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,199 therefore it was wrong. So but it's actually it was quite curious to 434 00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:39,119 see how much movement happened during those times amongst certain people. I mean, 435 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:44,000 it's like they thought nothing of marching for six months up north and then marching 436 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:46,480 back down again, and you know, and you're just sort of a lot 437 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:52,400 of walking, yeah, with thoughts as well on their heads at some point. 438 00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:59,920 And also my other half is the sounds a bit they're doing a PhD 439 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,119 in like Norse queer magic, which is really interesting because it's a narrative we 440 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:10,239 don't hear much about and I've learned. I don't know much about the Vikings, 441 00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:14,159 but I do know it was a job. It's not a race of 442 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:17,519 people, so people would go raiding and it was they were Vikings, and 443 00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:23,679 there were multicultural people who went raiding. There's some examples of people from Greece 444 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,079 and others that would join a raiding party and just like go do some stuff. 445 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:35,880 Scotland's massively, in the Ireland and Wales massively influenced with Norse culture. 446 00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:43,920 In fact, some chiefs of like Scottish clans are Norse in their origin of 447 00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:47,159 the kind of male line that goes through them back in the eleventh century and 448 00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:51,199 stuff like that. So they've had a huge impact on this island for a 449 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,000 really, really long time. And not all of it is that and the 450 00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:58,719 rap pillogy kind of stuff too. There was settlers and all sorts of things 451 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:04,119 that would I'm along and we don't hear these stories. Yeah, I was 452 00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:07,960 going to say. That was what caught me was the diversity of the culture. 453 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:09,599 Like you say, they weren't just from one area anyway, but the 454 00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:15,760 diversity of of of just the way they were, you know, it just 455 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,280 sort of broadened everything, and all of a sudden, you're just like, 456 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,880 wow, history is big. It's like, I'm re interested to hear about 457 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,159 the queer magic because we're doing Uh. I was interested in rooms for a 458 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:30,039 long time. And it's like with Odin, I mean, he was a 459 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,360 little bit what's I don't know what the word is, what the correct word 460 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,800 is for it, but he was seen as being not sort of like straight 461 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:45,880 out for male in his Yeah, even though people would have you believe like 462 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,639 Olden is the big warrior dude, right, He's not he's like a kind 463 00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:53,920 of appropriator of queer culture a little bit too. Like he uses say there, 464 00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:58,320 sorry, this is me showing my limited knowledge again, but say there 465 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,679 is like a form of folke my in North which was meant to be like 466 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,159 a feminine sorry, I'm doing bunny ears for people that can't see me at 467 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:13,119 home. Quote air quote a female form of magic that was meant to be 468 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:19,280 shameful for men to practice. There's lots of versions of why that is, 469 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,960 and we won't like I don't know enough about it. But yeah, he's 470 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,719 like if the original kind of Odin is like a god of necromancy and wiliness. 471 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,679 Like he's like not the person who led to Marvel hero that were led 472 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,880 to believe the same with lots of others of them. And there's lots of 473 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,079 really cool, interesting stories about him doing lots of weird stuff, raising people 474 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:45,679 from the dead, all lots of things, think of the dead. I 475 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:52,960 found an interesting story on your website about broad beans and the dead. I 476 00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:55,880 was just like, you have got to tell us about broad beans in the 477 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:06,039 dead, because that that's just I knew you that question back in the day. 478 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:14,199 It's like a romoed story I'm trying to think pythagon Is it the Pythagorean 479 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,800 story about why he stood and didn't go in the field of beans? Yes, 480 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,239 And what their theory about the beans and the beanstalk was, and what 481 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,400 happened with the beans when you ate them? What happens to everybody when they 482 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:32,840 eat beans? But yeah, apparently like beans are the food of the dead, 483 00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:36,960 right, And this is coming from And I can't remember the source where 484 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,360 this comes from. And I'll have to put footnotes to you for your show 485 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,800 so people can be like, what on earth is that Scott talking about? 486 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:47,719 Oh, that's this okay, fair enough. So beans were like seen to 487 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,599 be the souls of the dead, that the souls of the dead would travel 488 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:57,320 up the bean stalk and they would form beans, and like that, if 489 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,559 you wanted to stop the restless dead, you would throw beans like tried, 490 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,000 like beans from bean pods at them, or like in Roman times, like 491 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:09,000 the lava they kind of gathered around crossroads and stuff like that. And you 492 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,480 can see why crossroads are a bit spooky for us today. And we have 493 00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:17,679 like a huge folk magic tradition around crossroads in Scotland and the hole of the 494 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,239 UK. But anyway, they would throw these beans at the at certain festivals 495 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,880 and I can't remember the name of them, but they begin with l and 496 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:35,400 they were around about the thirteenth of May and Lamaria Lava something festival anyway, 497 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,719 But they believed that these these beans would be the soul of the dead, 498 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:44,480 so you could feed the restless dead them. But also the reason why you 499 00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:50,719 farted is because you were like letting go the spirits of the dead. Apparently, 500 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,400 I'm quite a gassy person, so I'm like channeling the spirits every day 501 00:41:54,599 --> 00:42:05,960 apparently. But also like Pythagoris was core because he wouldn't cross a field of 502 00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,960 beans like it was a bean field. And apparently he was caught when they 503 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,480 were chasing him to put him to death because he believed that if you walk 504 00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:17,239 through this field of beans, he'd be like treading on new souls that were 505 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:23,400 coming into the world, and he didn't want to kill. It's quite a 506 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:30,320 straight The thing that I couldn't get my head around is like weird beans were 507 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,320 attracted to being spirits. Sorry, we're attracted to bean plants, and then 508 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,000 they traveled up the stork and then became beans or inhabited the beans. But 509 00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:42,599 it was still okay to eat them, and then you just like let them 510 00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:45,639 go at the other end after you digested the bean around them. And I 511 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:51,000 just like, I don't I can't get my head around the fact that it's 512 00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:53,760 okay to eat the dead because you can release them at the other end. 513 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,000 Yeah, And I'm sure there's a lot more to this story that I'm kind 514 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,639 of being able to like paraphrase for your podcast. But I know in Italy 515 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:08,760 and other places they have particularly broad beans that have like these cookies that are 516 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,000 like and I don't know the Italian name for them, but they're like shaped 517 00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:17,239 like beans, and it's like part of the festival of the Dead stuff that 518 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,400 they would have these bean cookies too. But yeah, Ni, I don't 519 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:27,760 quite get the kind of metaphysical Are we transmuting the beans? Are we letting 520 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:34,239 souls free? Like where do the souls go when they're beans? Do they 521 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,800 get like do they go on bees? There's so many questions, right, 522 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:44,920 like to be dead souls. There's stories that they do. I mean, 523 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,159 it's like a just so story, isn't it. But it's like someone with 524 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,800 a dark a dark mind has come up with it just so story as to 525 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:59,320 why beans make you guessy, you know, it's just sort of yeah. 526 00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:04,280 I mean, like I can understand if they'd like grown beans is a crop, 527 00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,000 a small crop to collect the beans, and then every year you'd have 528 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:10,519 a funerally write for them, and it was a symbolic passing on of the 529 00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:15,199 dead or a locking up of the dead to stop them from roaming. But 530 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:21,159 the whole eating thing unless like I mean, it's almost cannibalism of so thin. 531 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,880 It was like, I think, like everything, it's not like a 532 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,239 yes, no thing. I think there were people in Roman times that he 533 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,440 looked to Pythagorism or like you're absolutely off your box. Beans are not dead 534 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:37,599 people, we will eat beans. I think, like because Pythagoras is like 535 00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:40,280 quite from what I understand, a bit of a cult, and like they 536 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:49,639 didn't trust him very much because of his like mathematical way of dissecting the universe 537 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,400 and things like that whole other subject that you can probably I'm not an expert 538 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,639 on it at all. I just kind of know that he was a bit 539 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:04,119 like hung out with people to talking about the Pythagorean theorem of space time or 540 00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:07,840 whatever, like quantum physics of its day and he had like quite a cult 541 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:14,880 following around him, and that the Romans wanted to not happen. So maybe 542 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,920 this is like maybe the propaganda story of beans. It's just that it's like 543 00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:27,400 a pyth Iron propaganda tale, Like there's a reason why with these there's always 544 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,159 an association with food, with folklore and old traditions and linked to death. 545 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,280 I mean, we had a conversation with Neil who spoke about his great great 546 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:45,599 grandmother who was a sineta and so would eat the salt with a piece of 547 00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:51,199 bread to release sins. So there's always been that association and those themes around 548 00:45:51,199 --> 00:45:55,760 food and souls. And but it's quite interesting because these you can you can 549 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:04,159 observe them in and out of time. Though things are quite there is changes 550 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,400 and it does kind of transfer, and there is you can see how it 551 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,920 moves from one to the other. There is themes that remain the same throughout 552 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,679 time, even in terms when you speak about the vikings and how they were 553 00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:22,239 portrayed. We still have people today that are portrayed in such a way that 554 00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:31,679 actually their culture isn't really understood and is minimized or you know, barbaric sometimes. 555 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:37,960 So these things haven't changed there's still these themes there as well, do 556 00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:40,360 you agree, Yeah, one hundred percent. And the sinets stuff is really 557 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:49,199 really interesting. Like there's the like Wick Dirge stuff that we have from nearwork 558 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,440 because I live in the Scottish borders where there is the Anglo Saxon Marsh kind 559 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:58,960 of really unruly wild West type part of Scotland that nobody wanted to own at 560 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,880 one point as well. They just kind of annexed it from England and Scotland 561 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,840 and we just kind of stole cattle from each other on the rag. That's 562 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:12,000 pretty much what we did. But that idea of like the shriving this is 563 00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:15,760 kind of interesting because it was Shrove Tuesday recently, right, which comes from 564 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,079 like the shriving of souls and stuff and the sin eater of the salt and 565 00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:24,639 the and the bread is like taking on that sin of that person to allow 566 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:30,519 them to not go to purgatory. It's quite a heavy cultural burden, I 567 00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:35,840 think, and for me it feels a little bit like the scapegoat stuff that 568 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,360 we used to do back like the Romans used to do when they would like 569 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:44,079 put the sins of the community on the goat and then send the goat out 570 00:47:44,119 --> 00:47:47,000 into the wilderness, kind of like off your pop take that all with you 571 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,119 and yeah, and like in Scottish Folk edition, we have food editions around 572 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,119 all of the festivals, but they involve bannocks. I don't know if you 573 00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:04,719 know what bannock is. It's like a kind of ohe ohe biscuit e cake 574 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,920 and they're tasty. Some of them are not so tasty, depending who's making 575 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:14,159 the bannock and stuff. But we have bannocks at each of the major Gallic 576 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,360 fire festivals all the quarter days, so that's like Belton there and Sway and 577 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:23,519 all the rest of it. And the Nasa which is the August one and 578 00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:29,000 butter and milk are very present in our kind of fook editions around around death 579 00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:35,280 and tobacco as well. Apparently there's stories that Saint Mary was a smoker because 580 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:40,719 when so she smoked the sin away and it's to help the body move on, 581 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,480 and there's loads of stories like that and kind of like oral culture in 582 00:48:45,599 --> 00:48:49,360 Ireland and Scotland, and that's why at the wake you would always have food. 583 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,079 You would always have like what would like the three bowls as well, 584 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:59,639 so you could divine things at someone's funeral if depending on where you put your 585 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,760 like hand in these bowls, or depending on where the dead person put their 586 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,039 hand, which is a bit wild that they would move it and be like, 587 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:14,320 hah that ball. Now you're fucked, So I I'm allowed to swear 588 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,559 on your fuck it happened to you? Want to wake that that? That 589 00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:22,320 would probably be the mildest way when you come out. Literally, HiT's move. 590 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,320 What's going on? So all of the Yeah, and food, and 591 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:34,119 I think food and community and life and death are like so like food, 592 00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:37,679 food of funerals is just reaffirming life sometimes to you, right, it's just 593 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:44,360 kind of like a nurturing thing to do. But food associated. But there's 594 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,400 like plants associated with dead and different times as well. It's kind of like, 595 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,360 yeah, I would be here for like a whole meaty subject talking about 596 00:49:52,599 --> 00:49:58,880 kind of like funerary plants and like the plants found in the Grimoi verum and 597 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,000 all of that kind of stuf, like in the three different Yeah, it's 598 00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:09,079 like a whole le thing. It's like you're going to have to come on 599 00:50:09,119 --> 00:50:17,840 every three months. Chapter three, Scott talks more about dead it's a really 600 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,960 interesting topic and that it's so multi fascet as well, and you can see 601 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,840 how you can see the progression, you can see the change, but you 602 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,679 can also see it appearing in other areas as well, so it transfers as 603 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:37,000 well. So it is really interesting. We are coming towards the end of 604 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:43,760 our show and we definitely do need to have you come back on because it 605 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:51,360 feels like we've literally just scratched the surface of lots of information. But before 606 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,000 we do, before we end, can you tell us a little bit about 607 00:50:54,039 --> 00:50:59,480 where we can find you, how people can find you and your You mentioned 608 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,559 your website. It's the kind of content that's there, so they know what 609 00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:12,400 they're looking for. Yeah, apparently lots of bean recipes and he loves food 610 00:51:12,519 --> 00:51:19,360 and so he loves one of those. Finding the random superstitions involved. Yeah, 611 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,280 I don't know if she's told you the one about black blackberries. That 612 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,559 was interesting and again that was a Halloween as well, wasn't it. Blackberries? 613 00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:30,880 Yeah, yeah, we have we have a story about the devil and 614 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:36,239 the blackberries having a big pets on them in Scotland. That's it, that's 615 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,280 the story. Yeah. Yeah, apparently on Google it might have been a 616 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,079 bit sanitized because apparently the devil licked them, but or or or befouled them, 617 00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:50,800 so it was a little bit vague as to how he did fouled your 618 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,159 blackberries, and al really was. I was at an event that evening and 619 00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:00,519 in my pims was a BlackBerry so and it was Halloween, so I was 620 00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:06,480 like, well, this is a that's literally like a trick as it is 621 00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:13,199 like a Yeah, I was a Probatavian. I definitely t it. I'm 622 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:21,800 definitely at that. But yeah, where to find It's hard to spell a 623 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,360 gallic word, right, So you can find me on my website, which 624 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:34,079 is the Kayaks hyphen Hyberium herbarium even dot com that's c A C A I 625 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:40,079 L L E A C H S hyphen h E R B A R I 626 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:45,920 U M dot com. That's once or more for the people at the back. 627 00:52:45,039 --> 00:52:49,760 No, you can find me on Instagram under the same name kayaks Varium. 628 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,719 I'm also on threads to I have wee bits and pieces on YouTube. 629 00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:00,440 We do tend to hold events. We tend to hold events. What's that 630 00:53:00,519 --> 00:53:04,599 mean. We held quite a lot of events before COVID happened, So there's 631 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,000 like odd bits of video and folklore and stuff that you can find on the 632 00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:12,559 YouTube channel of people talking who aren't me, which was probably good for people 633 00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:16,880 to just hear that since I've waffled on about stuff for an hour and I'm 634 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,320 not really on Twitter. Find it a bit of a dumpster fire, to 635 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,679 be honest. And you can find me on threads to Facebook too, and 636 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,599 there's a page on there, so yeah, that's where you can reach out 637 00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:35,079 to me on all of those different platforms. And I'm on the Odd podcast 638 00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:37,880 now and again when people let me lease talking about beans and parks and dead 639 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:46,239 people. Definitely kind of pie like Thearious Beans. It's a whole like restaurant 640 00:53:46,519 --> 00:53:52,840 that should be in the West End somewhere. Yeah, and we've had lots 641 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:58,280 of serious talk and loads of information, so kind of a really lighthearted question. 642 00:53:58,679 --> 00:54:01,679 We had a little bit of a converse station before about our interest and 643 00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:08,119 we spoke about being interested in horror films. So the top horror film or 644 00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:14,360 why top horror film and why? Oh, there's so many good ones to 645 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,639 choose from. I kind of want to mention the one that I mentioned, 646 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,639 Bora Chattan, because it's not really a horror film, it's just ridiculous, 647 00:54:21,039 --> 00:54:25,320 which is the Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death, and it's in 648 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:30,440 nineteen eighty six, it's PG. Thirteen. It's ridiculous and funny, and 649 00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:36,400 yeah, stick the stick the trailer had as to this podcast and you'll see 650 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,000 why. But I think one of my most favorite horror films I watched for 651 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,440 a while is probably The Baba Duke. I kind of like horror films that 652 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,159 have got a bit of a kind of story as to why, or an 653 00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:52,760 allegory is to like, that's about grief, isn't it? You know what 654 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,559 I mean? It's not necessarily the Monster under the Beds about family that's sad. 655 00:54:55,639 --> 00:54:59,880 Those kind of films that make you think that the Babaduk is great. 656 00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:05,239 Especially when it turned up on the LGBT Recommended Film watch list, that was 657 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,719 a good move. I did really like that film as well, because it 658 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,400 is one of that makes your brain think a little bit, because if you 659 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,159 looked at it superficially, you can understand the horror story, but actually when 660 00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:20,280 you kind of dissect it a little bit, you can see the messages and 661 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,159 the undertone of them, which makes it gives it a little bit more. 662 00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:27,800 There's more fear in there. When you understand the complexity of that film. 663 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,599 So yeah, I'm there with you with that one. Yeah, it's good. 664 00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:35,159 It's nice. Trying to think of one that I saw recently and it 665 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,760 slips my mind. But there was something about a black bar and it was 666 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:45,960 kind of like a folk horror film where she was in a little village and 667 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,119 I can't remember what it's called, but there was a black bar and it 668 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,840 was like a little bit wicker man and a little bit kind of we come 669 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:59,360 from a small village and we do weird things for this person. It was 670 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:04,840 fun. Oh well, think I know, I know that the film is 671 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,280 so weird because that's the second time I've had this conversation about that film in 672 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:13,239 the last two days. So maybe it's a divine message. Carriage, get 673 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,800 it on. We'll watch it because it does sound really good. You think 674 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:24,079 the name of it? No, no need though. Yeah, there was 675 00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:29,239 this film about some things and these things happened in it and it was really 676 00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:34,079 good, So you should watch it. You can't find that film. We've 677 00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:43,559 got Avocado Jungle of Death Variety, Variety. It's a reverent and funny that 678 00:56:43,639 --> 00:56:47,960 film. I wouln't take it too seriously. But yeah, the Black Barn 679 00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:52,639 film whatever that was called Lord of Less Rule, that's what it was called. 680 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,239 There we Go, and it's got like a carnival mask on the front 681 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,920 cover of the poster. Look that it came to me at half past nine, 682 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,679 There we Go, That would comes to me at three o'clock in the 683 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:08,119 morning. Thank you for that. Thank you so much. Thank you for 684 00:57:08,199 --> 00:57:12,599 joining us. It's been for inviting me, it's been grand. And thank 685 00:57:12,639 --> 00:57:15,320 you for giving me the space to offfle on about stuff that I love. 686 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,360 It's always a pleasure, So thank you. Nice to hear you speak, 687 00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,840 and we look hopefully we look forward to having you back if you would like 688 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,519 to come back before perfect Well, I'm going to say good night, thank 689 00:57:28,519 --> 00:58:01,880 you everyone that's listened, and we will see you next time. The THO