1 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,480 Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of my JavaScript Story. This week 2 00:00:10,519 --> 00:00:13,960 i'm talking to Wayne Hagen. Usually i'm like, today, were on this 3 00:00:14,039 --> 00:00:17,519 episode of JavaScript Jabber or blah blah blah, or sometimes I'll just tell you 4 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:20,839 how we met. In this case, Wayne reached out because I had been 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,640 talking on JavaScript Jabber mentioned that I was curious where people were coming from getting 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,600 into JavaScript these days. And incidentally, funny enough, two days ago on 7 00:00:29,679 --> 00:00:33,840 JavaScript Jabber recording schedule, not the production schedule. Right, it's not out 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,320 yet and it probably won't be for several weeks. We talked to somebody going 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,240 through a bootcamp, but Wayne, your experience is a little different from that, 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,759 and I really am curious as far as all of this goes. You 11 00:00:43,799 --> 00:00:47,159 know, yeah, what's it like getting into the industry today? So let's 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,759 talk a little bit about your background date, like, you know, what 13 00:00:50,799 --> 00:00:54,079 you've done before, and then we can talk about why you decided to get 14 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,679 in and what you did in order to learn. Hey, folks, this 15 00:00:56,719 --> 00:01:00,679 is Charles Maxwood and I just launched my book, The Max Coder Guide Defining 16 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:03,120 your Dream Developer Job. It's up on Amazon. We self published it. 17 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:06,719 I would love your support if you want to go check it out, you 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,400 can find it there The Maxicoter's Guide Definding your Dream developer job. Have a 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,319 good one, max out. So what is your background? So basically, 20 00:01:14,519 --> 00:01:18,920 I've been in the collision repair industry for fifteen years. My way up as 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,560 a journeyman painter. And it's kind of funny because I wasn't even never even 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,120 planned to be working on cars. When I got out of high school, 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,359 I told myself I never want to work on cars. I actually had aspirations 24 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,439 to be a three D animeter, but that kind of changed, among other 25 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:34,280 things that had to do with the community college I was at and what they 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,439 could provide. I've been married for about eleven years now, I got three 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,120 daughters, nine, seven and three. Wow your schedules no joke? Then 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,599 no, And I commute about an hour fifteen hour thirty minutes to work huh 29 00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:52,200 one way every day, and then I work about a ten to eleven hour 30 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:57,159 day, so my time to teach myself something new is very thin. And 31 00:01:57,159 --> 00:01:59,640 then the free time I do have on the weekends, I try not to 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,159 take it up with my extracurriculars because I got family to take care of, 33 00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:07,560 you know, So I've been taking my laptop with me to work and spending 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,400 about a half hour forty minutes coding if somebody's not talking to me in the 35 00:02:10,439 --> 00:02:14,400 break room, and then just little chances I have here and there when I 36 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,759 get home or on the weekend. So it's been a slow journey, but 37 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,960 it's given me a pretty big challenge to kind of be intentional about what I 38 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,360 try to learn, because I don't want to waste my time learning the wrong 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,599 thing. So that's kind of where frameworks and libraries and modules all that foreign 40 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,759 language to meet. Early up front, it was like do I need to 41 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,599 learn this or you know, I could. I might jump right into react 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,000 because that's what everybody's talking about, But then I could just be get myself 43 00:02:42,039 --> 00:02:46,159 way worse off just launching myself if I didn't learn the basics. So it 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,000 took me a little while to kind of figure out what I need to learn. 45 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:53,319 Yeah, did you tell us what prompted this change? Like, did 46 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:58,919 you meet somebody or in your cooper? Actually? Yeah, So I've actually 47 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,360 been looking to get out of my industry for a few years now, and 48 00:03:01,439 --> 00:03:07,280 my aspirations aren't It always changes because going through this journey, the last probably 49 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,879 four months of learning coding has got me really interested in it. It's kind 50 00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:15,680 of exciting, first time in fifteen years to realize there's more out there for 51 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:19,319 me. Potentally, I just keep following this, but my wife and I 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,719 have always wanted to open a coffee shop for quite a long time now, 53 00:03:22,719 --> 00:03:24,520 since we got married, and then just a few years ago. I actually, 54 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,879 you know, you get caught up in your career and don't make time 55 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:30,120 for yourself to do hobbies and stuff. But like I kind of started tinkering 56 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:34,280 and playing around again, got myself a three D printer, started doing like 57 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:38,439 RC model airplanes and stuff like that. Oh no, I'm jealous. I've 58 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:42,120 wanted one of those time. Oh yeah, well it's a lot more approachable 59 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:45,520 now, yeah it is. But yeah, like I kind of raised them 60 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:47,759 apprentices to kind of take a load off my back, uh, where they 61 00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:51,400 could pick up part of the burden. It works. I started get more 62 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,560 free time at home at the time, and so I started investing my hobbies 63 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:59,360 and in myself for my own sanity, and it was just refreshing to kind 64 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,840 of get that feeling of like being that nerdy teamker a guy that I always 65 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:05,280 was that I hadn't really spent time to do in a long time, and 66 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:11,120 that kind of influenced me and inspired me in Like this idea of building our 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,000 coffee shop with a maker space in mind came to fruition. Yeah, So 68 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,879 I've been following the maker movement for a while now, and like that's just 69 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,800 been kind of my passion. Like I follow like tested dot com with Adam 70 00:04:23,879 --> 00:04:27,560 Savage and all that, a lot several other maker channels and stuff like that. 71 00:04:28,199 --> 00:04:30,399 You know, even people in that community they say, like coding is 72 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:34,639 making too. You're making new things that are useful to everyday people all the 73 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:40,120 time. Sometimes they're creative, sometimes they're just a practical application. So this 74 00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:43,319 just fit right in. But I hadn't really considered what I wanted to use 75 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,480 with it. I've always had ideas for apps and stuff. But what prompted 76 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:48,839 me to jump into it at this point? So at work, we're a 77 00:04:48,879 --> 00:04:51,439 big company, the shop I'm at, we do like one and a half 78 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:57,279 million sales on auto repair a month. But like they have this whiteboard that 79 00:04:57,319 --> 00:05:00,759 they have up behind our production desk where every the service writer that meets with 80 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:04,240 the customer and writes the sheets for us they go and write the cars that 81 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,839 are going that day, like who the bodyman is, who the painter is? 82 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:12,040 Doesn't need an alignment? Does it need to? When you put in 83 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,439 hands all this stuff, and it's like far away from their desk, it's 84 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,920 far away from everybody else, but it's like managements. They just want them 85 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,160 to go out there and write on it all the time and update it. 86 00:05:20,199 --> 00:05:21,800 I just looked at it. I was like, that looks like a big 87 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,040 waste of time. It would be a lot more useful if they had like 88 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,639 a big TV up there with a spreadsheet or something like that where they could 89 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,480 just fill it in from their computer, right if they could check it on 90 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,920 their phone, you know, eventually like you can get data from that too 91 00:05:33,959 --> 00:05:38,480 if you save all of it and see how production really works out. So 92 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,480 that kind of prompted me to want to make an application like that, just 93 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:44,680 to see if I could do it. So initially I went on Google. 94 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:47,120 I started like looking for like clips of code to see if I could cobble 95 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,279 it together, and I found out really quick that that just doesn't work. 96 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,800 So that led me to figure out, like what I really need to do 97 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,560 to figure out how to make this and I came across because like i'd heard 98 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,959 about one thing I did know about. I've been aware, I've kind of 99 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:05,560 followed I'm into tech a lot, so like i'd followed what Mozilla tried to 100 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:11,639 do with their fire os, the idea of like just web apps being available 101 00:06:11,639 --> 00:06:14,439 to anyone. You don't have to have an app or a specific device that 102 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,920 works. So I had a friend that got way into that. Yeah, 103 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:20,160 so I just like the idea of like a web app. It sounded like 104 00:06:20,199 --> 00:06:26,160 a better approach to building something, except especially for somebody starting out. So 105 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,240 yeah, I just I kind of as I started kind of trying to figure 106 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,319 out what I needed to build an app, it got bigger and bigger and 107 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,759 bigger. As I was like looking into I was like, okay, so 108 00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:36,680 I've always heard about JavaScript. I kind of looked into that. I was 109 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,360 like, Okay, well, that doesn't look like it fits all my needs 110 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:46,759 because you need I realized you need HTML and CSS because that's the stuff you 111 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,360 see. JavaScript's the stuff that makes it interactive where I can click a button. 112 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,480 But then I was like, oh crap, Like now I need something 113 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,319 that it goes to like a database or whatever that is. And the assumption 114 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,040 is the database is the same thing as a server, And then I find 115 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,199 out more it's like you need a language. You need to learn some kind 116 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,800 of language that builds or talks to a server. Then there's I'm still kind 117 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,959 of in that part of learning right now. Like it sounds like there's also 118 00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:19,160 modules or frameworks for the server to talk to the database. So how did 119 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,800 you decide which of all of these things to learn? Right? I mean, 120 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:26,879 yeah, And it's just just to give you a little bit of context, 121 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:29,680 because I talk to a lot of people that aren't new and they have 122 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,879 the same problem, right, you know, it's not just you. I 123 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,519 mean even if they've dialed in and they're like, you know what, I'm 124 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:40,120 a React guy or I'm an Angular gal or whatever. Right, it's you 125 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,439 know, it just boils down to you know, Okay, so you get 126 00:07:44,439 --> 00:07:47,959 into React, let's say, and then there's reducts and mob X and just 127 00:07:48,079 --> 00:07:54,319 managing state with whatever you have and you know, and that's just state management, 128 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,879 and it's what do I put in the store and what don't I put 129 00:07:56,879 --> 00:07:59,600 in the store? And how do I test it? And how you know, 130 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:01,879 how do I make a performance blog? You know, it goes on 131 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:05,879 and on and on. You know, you're talking about the top crust of 132 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:09,199 this rabbit hole, right. So yeah, as a new person, and 133 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:11,000 it seems like this guy's the limit to right. There are plenty of angular 134 00:08:11,079 --> 00:08:13,759 jobs, or plenty of React jobs, or plenty of you jobs. There 135 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,480 are plenty of mobile jobs or whatever, right, and so it's not like 136 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:22,360 picking one is going to necessarily severely limit your options. So how did you 137 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:26,079 pick? Put some notes down for this, But I would just I started 138 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,000 going on YouTube and kind of seeing what people were saying about it. And 139 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,759 then I came across a video by a guy named Andy Darah watt Derowitz I 140 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:37,639 think, and he had a video called My Story of being a Self Taught 141 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,240 Programmer an Invention a book in the head first series by O'Reilly and I think 142 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:46,399 he said it was the HTML and CSS book and it was just a good 143 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:48,000 starting place for him. And so I was like, you know what, 144 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,559 it sounds like that's kind of what everybody's going to be working with when they 145 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:54,120 jump into this. So I'm going to learn. I'm gonna do that first. 146 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,639 So I took my HTML CSS book from the head first series. I 147 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,320 started in October where in March or in April now, So that took me 148 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:07,120 about a month to complete, and I tried to take advantage of being curious 149 00:09:07,159 --> 00:09:09,840 while I was going through the book, like got to a certain point I 150 00:09:09,879 --> 00:09:11,200 was like, Okay, I'm starting to get this. So I went to 151 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:16,360 my wife's photography page that she made in square space, and I was like 152 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:20,000 halfway through the book, and I'm just going to try to replicate this page 153 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,679 with what I know right now. And so, like I open up the 154 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,960 source code and it's like, you know, three hundred and fifty kilobytes for 155 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,039 a page that has a background and a little bit of text. I'm like, 156 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,120 I don't know why this is all here. Kind of in retrospect, 157 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,519 I imagine that's just framework stuff that's built in the squarespace or whatever. But 158 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:43,679 like I was able to kind of replicate that page in like six six kilby 159 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,360 HTML file, and so that was kind of fun. And I kind of 160 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,679 just did that as I went through the book. I kind of gave myself 161 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,759 little challenges to replicate pages that I've seen across the Internet. And then I 162 00:09:54,799 --> 00:10:00,519 got into the head first JavaScript book because why not stick to the public sure, 163 00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:03,559 and the series that cam to be jelling with me. I think I'm 164 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,279 still muted, You're still talking, You're still learning the fundamentals there, right, 165 00:10:07,519 --> 00:10:11,480 you know. Yeah, JavaScript is still kind of that base level stuff, 166 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,559 just like h C, MEL and CSS. So I like that. 167 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,039 Can I just back up for a second, though, because I love the 168 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,720 idea of replicating something that's out there, right, because you know it can 169 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:22,159 be done, you know if you've gotten it right, because it looks the 170 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:24,759 same or acts the same. So how did you decide? I mean, 171 00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:26,759 you mentioned your wife's squarespace, and that's kind of an obvious pick, right 172 00:10:26,799 --> 00:10:28,960 because it's something you're familiar with. But what were some of the other things 173 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,360 you picked and and why did you pick those as things you wanted to replicate. 174 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:35,519 I didn't do many. Some of them were over still over my head 175 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:39,960 because that was the very beginning of it was I was starting to do. 176 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,120 But like again, like I said, I go to testing dot com a 177 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,320 lot. That's a page that they just had. It's kind of a blog 178 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:50,200 style website. They just post videos from YouTube, So I was just trying 179 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,039 to replicate format and stuff like that. I started like building my own blog. 180 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,080 I haven't published it yet, but like I've been kind of playing with 181 00:10:58,159 --> 00:11:01,679 that. I would get on My kids would hop in on my lap or 182 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:03,840 next to me on the couch sometimes and want to build their own website because 183 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,240 they want to do what dad's doing. So my middle girl, Addie, 184 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:13,039 we built her a little website called ADDIE's Robot Roller Unicorn with just a big 185 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,919 old stock photo of a unicorn on the background and some text on it and 186 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,639 just however she wanted the pont to look. And then we put together another 187 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,960 website with the little squshy toys for my oldest daughter, right, and so 188 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,159 it was just like a little activity for us that gave me a chance to 189 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,720 do something like not replicate something, but kind of play around with formatting, 190 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,559 like kind of figure out what heck is flex or this grid thing that everybody's 191 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,360 talking about. I should do that, honestly, I should do that. 192 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,080 Yeah. So yeah, and then I got I finally started kind of towards 193 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,159 the end of November, I started the JavaScript book. That one took a 194 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:52,159 lot longer because I would take a multiple week break just to kind of work. 195 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,759 I'd get just enough in my tool chest where i'd start like working on 196 00:11:56,919 --> 00:11:58,960 that app idea I had for work, and then i'd kind of get to 197 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:01,600 where I couldn't do much more. I'd keep going in the book. That 198 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:07,759 was a really good exercise for me, because as I progressed through the JavaScript 199 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:11,759 book, I'd see where I was being inefficient in the code I'd written for 200 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:15,200 that app, and I'd go back and revise it and kind of get past 201 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,480 perspective on Like in a way, I think that the book I actually was 202 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,759 using was Yes five book, maybe not Yes six even I think it was 203 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:26,039 written in like twenty fourteen. Well, yes five. I'd still work alone. 204 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,320 Yeah, so either way, Like some of those syntax look a little 205 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,519 older to what I was seeing on what's the website everybody goes to for to 206 00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:39,240 check their coding and ask questions a stack overflow. That was another interesting experience 207 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,879 for me because sometimes you go to stack overflow and there'd be these because I'm 208 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:50,039 learning vanilla JavaScript, and you see like percentage signs and pound signs and dollar 209 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,600 signs. I'm like, what's this? People are mentioning jQuery or something, 210 00:12:54,759 --> 00:12:58,919 and some of the syntax they're saying like this is from a framework or something, 211 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,679 and I'm like, I don't know how to use that, but yeah, 212 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:05,039 that it was just a good exercise as I went through that book and 213 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,759 kept revising my code for that app, and I'd see myself cutting out like 214 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:13,480 twenty thirty lines of code sometimes just to build it. I even't had a 215 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,399 timer built in at one time for where like a cell would gradually meter across 216 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,399 from zero to one hundred percent when a car was getting ready to be delivered. 217 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,399 And that was an interesting thing because I listened to I can't remember which 218 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,759 podcast, but they were talking about how complex time is encoding and the UPTS 219 00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:35,879 format but how important it was, and I was like, that sounds like 220 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:39,000 a legit thing to kind of work on. Because when you take an input 221 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,200 from a form, you don't get that it kind of gives you a partial 222 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,240 string. So I had to kind of create a function that would complete the 223 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:50,679 string so that it could be used again later. And that was an interesting 224 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:52,879 I still don't know how I did it. I'd have to go back and 225 00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:56,399 look at it. But that was just a good challenge. It was kind 226 00:13:56,399 --> 00:14:01,080 of my first satisfying challenges to kind of work at. It felt like I 227 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:03,159 was kind of doing something unique. Probably wasn't, but it just felt like 228 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,840 it. I'm a little curious, you know, talking through some of these. 229 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,840 Were you reading through the books while you were working on some of these? 230 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,240 Yeah? Or did you? Cause I talked to Eric Kritchlow who on 231 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,039 the Clean Coders podcast, and he he mentioned that the way he picked stuff 232 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,840 up is he basically reads the book front to back and then just goes and 233 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,639 gets to work, and so I was curious what your Yeah, your method 234 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:26,879 was different than that. It was just kind of going through it. Like 235 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,120 again, I was just excited to like be jumping into it. I remember 236 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:33,120 the first time, like it really clicked for me and it was really exciting. 237 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:37,600 I'm on a Beginner's Web of dev group on Facebook and I just went 238 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:39,519 on there, like I just went on there and just said and like it's 239 00:14:39,679 --> 00:14:43,440 kind of dumb, but just like this simple thing. I was going through 240 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,159 my book and they had us like kind of deviating on this one thing over 241 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,879 and over again, and I just was in the console on Firefox or whatever 242 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:54,440 and wrote up a quick function so I don't have to retype that code over 243 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,159 and over and over again. And I just naturally it was the first time. 244 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,600 I just at the back of my head, I just wrote function it 245 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:03,159 wasn't thinking about it, and I was like that was that was pretty exciting 246 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,960 for me. It was just something simple, but it kind of just I 247 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,159 was like, Okay, that click, that gel, that kind of makes 248 00:15:07,159 --> 00:15:11,080 sense. I'm not like druggling with this now I understand what the function is. 249 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,559 So yeah. I completed the job a script book in January I think, 250 00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:20,279 and then I just took some time kind of playing around with my app. 251 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,840 More was kind of busy with work. I was trying to figure out 252 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,279 why I'm waiting for you to pick a team. I know, so I 253 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,120 haven't gotten there yet. So and this is the thing for me, like 254 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,200 I still don't know if like this is going to be my career, you 255 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,919 know, like I'm kind of playing oh yeah, you know, And I 256 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:39,480 hope it doesn't feel like I'm wasting your time. No, it's not, 257 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:41,519 because you know, it's this perspective too. I mean, I'm not sure 258 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,440 this is going to be my career, is okay? So what things might 259 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:50,080 make you because we have this conversation usually it's about like women and minorities, 260 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,799 but you know a lot of other people and this might get me in trouble 261 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,360 saying it. But what I find is that a lot of the folks, 262 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,759 whether they're a minority or not, they're people, right, And a lot 263 00:16:00,799 --> 00:16:03,759 of the reasons that people fall out are people issues, not necessarily women issues 264 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,480 or minority issues. So if we see the places where we leak people in 265 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:12,480 our pipeline, then maybe it's like, oh, well, if we made 266 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,759 sure that Wayne and other people understood this thing right, then maybe they'd be 267 00:16:18,759 --> 00:16:22,159 more likely to come into the community. Or maybe if we solved this particular 268 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,480 issue with development, or maybe it's a perception thing, right, But yeah, 269 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,120 I'm curious. So, yeah, it's not a waste of time. 270 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:34,080 It's an interesting perspective on the on the industry, and oh where might we 271 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,360 have a leaky issue and and maybe you wouldn't be happy here, and so 272 00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:41,559 maybe it's just not a good foot anyway, you know, any of those 273 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,879 I would love to just kind of get perspective on so that you're not wasting 274 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:48,120 time. It's fine. Oh yeah, So like I said, like you 275 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,080 know, our real goal for my family is to build this business that we 276 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:53,960 kind of dream of. But like I said, Earl and that's the Maker 277 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,000 Coffee space. Yeah, and I love that idea. By the way, 278 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,879 yeah, because I like, I've found my greatest passion is teaching people. 279 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:07,880 It's been like my pleasure for the last six or seven years as a journeyman, 280 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:12,119 raising up apprentice technicians right so that they can make a career of themselves, 281 00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:15,640 be able to support their families, and just I just love the idea 282 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,200 of like teaching somebody the right way to do something and be happy about the 283 00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:23,119 quality of their work and know that they're putting something out there that is good 284 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,519 and something to be proud of. And like I said, like, it's 285 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,799 kind of funny. I've been hearing it for years, like because I just 286 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:33,960 approached my job so different. Like in my trade, it's you know, 287 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,480 they're a lot of these guys are gear heads stuff like that. We need 288 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:41,119 people like that too in the world. So yeah, but it's funny because 289 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:47,640 I've always told people like I find that artists make the best painters because it's 290 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:49,559 it's kind of an art into itself. And then I was talking to my 291 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,079 boss, who was my new boss at the time two years ago, because 292 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,160 they kind of made me the point person for training new apprentices in the company, 293 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:00,960 and he's like Wayne, Wayne, and like, you don't think like 294 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,440 an artist, you think like an engineer, right, And I'd never thought 295 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,039 of that before, but it totally made sense because like when I would do 296 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,599 art in high school and stuff like, I'd be so meticulous and a perfectionist 297 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,000 about things. I'm like that in my job. Most of these people, 298 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,240 like part of the painting job is tinting colors to match each car because they're 299 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,119 all a little off, whether it's being mismatched from the factory or it's in 300 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,160 died back in the sign or something. But like a lot of these guys, 301 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,440 they just kind of go do these toner banks, because a color is 302 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,480 made up of many individual toners, right, just kind of like drip drip, 303 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:37,119 glob glob and make the color match. But once it's matched, like 304 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,720 it's good for that time. But I and a few people a number of 305 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,440 other people do it, but it's not very common. I use math to 306 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:48,359 tint, so I'm like, okay, I need about half a percent of 307 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,480 this red to change this color this way, might need to leave out twenty 308 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,359 percent of this make it match or add this. I'm very mathematical about it. 309 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,240 And then I keep my sprayouts and with all the notations on so I 310 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,079 can index them later for more use and share that. And I actually, 311 00:19:04,279 --> 00:19:08,079 at my last job, I kept every note document for every car I did, 312 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,200 so I could go back and look at the RO number for a specific 313 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,880 car from three years ago and tell them exactly what I sprayed on it. 314 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:19,079 I could share it with another technician that might be having a problem with that. 315 00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,640 And that's like another app idea I have is like like kind of a 316 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,559 social network for painters where they can go online and jure color matches that they 317 00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:33,079 found. People could vote on them and like follow painters that they feel are 318 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,759 good color matches. It's like, I'm really passionate about making communication and things 319 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:40,720 better for the industry. I'm leaving and so like I kind of want to 320 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:45,160 leave that behind before I go. So it's it's like another motivation, but 321 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:48,200 kind of I got a little off track there. But like I said earlier, 322 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,960 like coating is making in a way, I'm the same way I need 323 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,200 that recipe, right, So yeah, so yeah, so like coding is 324 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,559 making in a way, and so like I I would love to offer at 325 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,880 least a glimpse into this world at our maker space too. You know. 326 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:10,640 It's like right now I'm actually on my Python. I'm learning Python right now, 327 00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:14,000 and because I know we don't have a show for that, I know, 328 00:20:14,519 --> 00:20:17,000 but you know, that was the I'm working on it. I'm working 329 00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:18,839 on it, you know. I got myself into this and I'm kind of 330 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,480 like committed to finishing it. But part of I realized, like, I'm 331 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:26,640 making myself the full stack app technically, I think, but it's like I 332 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,839 did HTMLCSS, I did the JavaScript thing. Now I need a way to 333 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,400 store the data that's not going to disappear the second I refreshed the website, 334 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,440 and so like that was kind of the next step that was tough for me. 335 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,000 It is like i'd heard about my SQL. I kind of fiddled with 336 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,599 it at the beginning, but I didn't know what I was doing, and 337 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,519 the user interface for that was just like felt god awful to me. But 338 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,680 now that I'm kind of playing around in the command prompt or whatever, and 339 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,160 it makes a little more sense just now that I'm actually doing the coding part. 340 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,079 But it's like, Okay, there's my SCUO. I hear about like 341 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,519 nons well, Mango dB sounded kind of nice to me because I'd learned the 342 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:08,400 objects oriented programming in JavaScript, so I kind of leaned towards that, but 343 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:15,160 I'd heard about NOJS Python. I wasn't really interested in Java or c or 344 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,599 whatever it like. So it was kind of like between those two to learn 345 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:22,240 to do a back end, and I was trying to figure out how I 346 00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:26,160 wanted to go about that. You know, I just learned JavaScript basics, 347 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,440 so as I'm approaching trying to figure out what I want to do about the 348 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,039 beck ends, I'm like, Okay, it sounds like I need to learn 349 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,559 another aspect of vobscript called node. And to me, I'm like, is 350 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,680 this what people call a framework or a library? Nope, or I don't 351 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,039 know, but it's like, in a way, it kind of sounded like 352 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,519 what Angular or react is. You know, it's just is it just different 353 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:53,319 syntax that can be applied a little different. So like that was tough for 354 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,960 me. Plus I kind of liked the idea of Python just because we wanted 355 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:03,039 to do this makerspace and if I want to do projects with like kids and 356 00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:07,200 families and stuff that could be applied towards like Raspberry Pie projects and stuff. 357 00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:08,519 So I was like, you know, I'm just going to try that. 358 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,000 It might be a little tougher because it's something brand new, but I'm just 359 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:17,279 going to do that. So that's kind of what I've been into the last 360 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:21,119 month. I've been going through that book. I've been learning last they're doing 361 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,240 my sqol and that book, and it's it's not as bad as I had 362 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:29,119 thought, you know. I'm starting to kind of grass the whole idea of 363 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,440 this little bits of all the aspects of the stack. And it's still a 364 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,359 little overwhelming, but like I'm kind of getting the idea. But like I'm 365 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,000 really committed to like finishing something because that's what's driven me to like not stop. 366 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,920 So I really want to finish one of these apps. Even if it's 367 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,200 not it never goes into production, you know. So that's been like my 368 00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,920 biggest motivator. A couple of years ago, I put out a survey asking 369 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,960 people what topics they wanted us to cover on depchat dot tv, and I 370 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,720 got two overwhelming responses. One what's from the JavaScript community they wanted to React 371 00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:02,359 show, and the other one was from the Ruby community and they wanted an 372 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,160 Elixir show. So we started both. The React Show though is React Round 373 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,359 Up, and every week we bring in people from the React community and we 374 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,279 have conversations with them about React, about the community, about open source, 375 00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:17,720 about what goes into React, how to build React apps, and what's going 376 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:21,400 on and changing in the React community. So if you're looking to keep current 377 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,960 on the current React ecosystem and what's going on and React, you definitely need 378 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,839 to be checking out React Roundup. You can find it at react round up 379 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:30,039 dot com. Nice. So, yeah, so it sounds like you're learning 380 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:33,440 Python now. I mean, where are you at with all of this? 381 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:36,720 So you want to expand on that? So, yeah, I'm just curious 382 00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:41,079 as far as so you feel like you've got your hands around JavaScript for the 383 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,720 most part, You've got a reasonably good handle on Python, but you're still 384 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:47,279 learning more. Yeah, you know, what where do you where do you 385 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,160 end up as far as all of this goes, Like where are you now? 386 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,960 And yeah, where do you see this going in the end? So 387 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,720 I kind of have a time limit limit on myself too, because like we're 388 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,759 planning to sell our house soon and move to Tennessee to start our business in 389 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,440 June when the kids' school year is over. But the way things are going 390 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:07,799 right now, yeah, that might be a thing. The housing market is 391 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,599 basically shut down, so I might have a little more time on my hands, 392 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,359 yes, but right now I feel like I can't implement anything into the 393 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,279 wild. I could probably get my blog up soon, but part of what 394 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,440 I'm trying to figure out right now, as well as get community, I 395 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,759 have nobody to like, ounce ideas off of or talk to. That's kind 396 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,000 of one of the other challenges I had was, you know, like, 397 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,720 where do I joined the Facebook group, but half of the people are just 398 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:37,680 marketing their own teaching websites. They and the other people are beginners. On 399 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,079 that group. I hear people talk about meetups, but nobody ever talks about 400 00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:44,680 how you find a meetup. Oh, you want me to tell you how 401 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,119 to find a meet up? I have no idea. I will happily do 402 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,640 that. And it's funny too, because I've coached some people on finding jobs, 403 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:52,720 and I tell them to go to the meetups because you'll meet people in 404 00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:57,160 your area that have jobs. Yeah, typically, and so the idea is 405 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,000 then you make friends who might be able to you get a job. I 406 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:03,000 know that's not exactly what you're aiming at, but yeah, for people who 407 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:06,319 are finding jobs, that's one of the first things I tell them to do. 408 00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:10,079 So I'm also gonna preface this by saying a lot of times I tell 409 00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:11,559 people to go do this, and then they say, there's no way, 410 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,119 There's no way there's one in my area because I don't live in a big 411 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,279 city. And what I found is that even some of the areas that are 412 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,119 not big city have code groups. Right. Some of them are more general, 413 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,559 and some of them are very focused on specific technologies like JavaScript. And 414 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:29,440 if there is one that's focused on the technology, it's most likely either Java, 415 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,359 dot net or JavaScript. So just putting that out there. Yeah, 416 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:36,920 so the Python is making inroads now. So anyway, you go to meetup 417 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,880 dot com and you do a search, you can look you know, within 418 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,079 like fifty miles of your ZIP code, I think is the way that it 419 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,960 works, and then it'll list it all out and so you can put in 420 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:49,480 the topic that you're interested in having a meetup group for and it'll find them 421 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:55,079 for you. So so anyway, it's it's relatively easy process, and then 422 00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:59,720 you can go join them and see when their next meetings are and if they 423 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,720 don't have any meetings coming up. Of course, we're talking in the middle 424 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:07,279 of this coronavirus pandemic where nobody is meeting up, right, so you have 425 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,319 that going. But if you got on and you know, during normal times 426 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:12,519 and you saw, you know what, there's there's no meet up a lot 427 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:15,839 of times. What you can do is you can reach out to the organizers 428 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:18,240 and say, hey, look, I noticed sart to any meetups coming up, 429 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,039 I'd like to organize one. And then, you know, all you 430 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,279 really have to do then is find somebody to speak and get it on the 431 00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:26,240 calendar and people will show up and there you go. Now you have your 432 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,640 meetup group and somebody else did the work of gathering all those people together in 433 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,559 one place so you could reach out to them and say, hey, we're 434 00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:33,799 getting together. You also have to find a place to meet. I guess 435 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:37,480 that's the other thing. But you know, if it's a smallish group, 436 00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:41,039 you know, less than fifty people, you can probably just say hey, 437 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:45,079 let's all go to this restaurant or this coffee shop or something. If it's 438 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,440 bigger than that, then yeah, start looking around at other companies or look 439 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,039 at their past meetings and see where they've met in the past and see if 440 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:52,359 you can line that up. But I mean, that's it. That's the 441 00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:56,559 hole long and the short of it now within the JavaScript space, I'm also 442 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,559 organizing some virtual meetups because of the coronavirus. I'll probably keep them going afterwards 443 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:03,960 as long as people want to come to them. But yeah, so you 444 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,599 can find those at devchat, dot tv, slash meetups and I'm doing one 445 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,279 at four pm mountain time on Monday as we speak, so this will probably 446 00:27:11,319 --> 00:27:15,160 come out later than that, so you can go see when the next one 447 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,079 is. But I'm also doing them for view, React, Angular and Ruby, 448 00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:21,359 so you know, keep an eye out for that. And I'm also 449 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,319 doing one in the morning mountain time, like nine am mountain time on Thursdays 450 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,680 and for the same groups. Except what that does is it puts it in 451 00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:33,279 the afternoon evening for like Europe, Israel, Middle East Africa time zones, 452 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,000 so those folks, because the ones in the afternoon or evening here in the 453 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,880 middle of the night for those people. Yeah. So and then if you're 454 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,720 in Asia or something, those times will put it like in the morning your 455 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:49,319 time, depending on where you're at. So anyway, so that's another thing 456 00:27:49,319 --> 00:27:52,359 that I'm doing. So if you want to sign up for those, you 457 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,400 can then Yeah, that's kind of where we're at. And I'm just inviting 458 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,960 past guests from JavaScript Jabber or whatever to speak at those so or some of 459 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,680 our hosts. You go, Yeah, the meetup dot com is by far 460 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:07,480 the easiest way to go. Another place you can look if you're curious, 461 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,440 is for Google developer groups, and Google has their own website for that, 462 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:12,640 and so you can go south there's one of those in your area. Well, 463 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,960 I live in the Bay Area right now, so I'm sure that, 464 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,680 oh you've got too hard, You've got it, You've got your pick man 465 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,839 in the area, They've got a ton of them. What's funny is is 466 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,799 like out here, I live near Salt Lake City, so you know, 467 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,880 not a big city really, I mean maybe a million people in the metro 468 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,240 area, maybe a million five along the whole Wassat Front which is basically from 469 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,839 Ogden to Provo. And you know, we have we have a whole bunch 470 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,920 of meetup groups here. And they tend to have like one in Salt Lake, 471 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:44,160 one in Utah County, which is where I live, which is the 472 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,559 county south of Salt Lake, but it's rather populated around Provo, and then 473 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:52,920 they usually have another one up around Ogden or even up in Logan, which 474 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,720 is a small college town up in northern Utah, and they have those for 475 00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:59,039 all of those, and then some of them even have two. In Salt 476 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:00,359 Lake. They have one in like South Salt Lake, the south half of 477 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:03,759 the valley, and another one downtown. So okay, you know you have 478 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,680 good options here. But I mean I've looked on meetup for Bay Area and 479 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,400 they've got i mean, just ridiculous numbers of them. Seattle is the same 480 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,759 way, and so is Los Angeles. I found. Yeah, and I 481 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,599 just I never was aware of the meetup East Coast. East Coast. You're 482 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,960 probably you probably have good options in a lot of the bigger cities. One 483 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,680 of the not as big cities that surprised me as far as the number of 484 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,319 meetups they have is Orlando, Florida. Because Orlando everyone's heard of it because 485 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,279 of like Disney World and stuff, but it is not really that big a 486 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:38,720 city, and they have a ton of tech stuff going on there too. 487 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,640 So but yeah, Atlanta, Boston, Philadelphia I think has a bunch. 488 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,200 New York City has a ton, and they've they've got as much going on, 489 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,240 you know, down in Jersey as they do up in New York City. 490 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,119 So you've got great options there. I know that there are other groups 491 00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:59,079 that meet, like in Raleigh or Charlotte, North Carolina, and so yeah, 492 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,920 you know, it's you know a lot of good stuff in Nashville. 493 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:04,720 Austin has a ton because it's becoming a tech hub. So I mean, 494 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,359 yeah, you may have to drive a little bit, but yeah, you 495 00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:12,359 can probably find something within reasonable drive of where you live. So yeah, 496 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,079 and we're planning to move near Nashville anyway, so it sounds like that's a 497 00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:18,720 good hug for that as well. Yeah, I know a lot of people 498 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:22,680 in Nashville, so anyway, so yeah, so anyway, good options there. 499 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,000 I'm curious, you know, as we kind of wrap this up, 500 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:27,559 are there other things that I can answer for you. I know that we're 501 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,279 over time already, I think one of the biggest things, and you kind 502 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:36,279 of said at the beginning most people that are in it already are struggling to 503 00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:41,039 figure out too. But I still quite can't quite wrap my head around what 504 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,240 the difference between frameworks, libraries, modules, web components are like. In 505 00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:49,359 my mind, it they're like either plug ins or like I'm kind of getting 506 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:53,440 a sense for what a module is with Python it. It's a completely different 507 00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:57,359 style of coding. So like, I, yeah, that's that's kind of 508 00:30:57,359 --> 00:31:00,799 been the barrier for me. Like part of me just wants to stick to 509 00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:03,319 Vanilla because like, I don't know, if I'm going to go down a 510 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,119 rabbit hole, that's just not going to be something I'm gonna I'm gonna use, 511 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,680 yeah when something else would have been better for me? So what And 512 00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:14,720 this is completely my opinion, but in my experience, let's let's take it 513 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,720 down to kind of the basic level. You usually have something like a platform 514 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:19,960 or a language implementation. I kind of think of them the same way. 515 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,480 So like no js is an example of that, right where it's a okay, 516 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:27,799 it's a JavaScript implementation that runs on your computer. Each of the browser 517 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,759 JavaScript implementations I also think of as platforms because they all have an engine behind 518 00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:36,799 them that are built into the browsers. Right, So Python has a bunch 519 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:38,799 of those. There's kind of I guess the basic I don't know what they 520 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:41,839 call it over there because I'm not as steeped in their jargon, but you 521 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,119 know, so they have the basic Python implementation that you just install. It's 522 00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:51,200 written in seerc plus plus and then there's like iron Python which connects into the 523 00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:53,720 Windows run times, and you've got I think there's a Java, Java, 524 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:59,599 Java JAVM implementation of Python and right, so you can run any of those 525 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,359 platform worms to run Python and then basically talking for a job script, it's 526 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,759 like the V eight engine or something like that. Yeah, V eight engine 527 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,799 is it's sort of a platform because it has its own API exposed API layer. 528 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,519 But the V eight engine is part of Chrome, and so when you 529 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:19,440 run it in Chrome or when you run it in Node, because Node is 530 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,119 written with V eight. You know, then what you're doing is you're you're 531 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:27,480 running it on whatever platform actually you know, execute your code, gotcha. 532 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,880 But yeah, V eight is more of a language implementation, okay, And 533 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,000 then you've got frameworks, and frameworks I tend to think of there is so 534 00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:38,039 it's a collection of libraries. And libraries are typically you know, a bunch 535 00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:40,799 of code that does a theme, right, So it has a job. 536 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,440 Now, sometimes that job is big and it does a lot, and sometimes 537 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,200 that job is small and it doesn't do very much right, but it does 538 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,039 something important. So that's a library. And some of the libraries feel like 539 00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:54,960 frameworks because they do so much stuff. But like the picture I had in 540 00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:01,319 my head with what I think that is is basically a function call that does 541 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,240 all the work behind the scenes from me, I don't really know, I 542 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,480 need to know how it worked, but I just call the function from Yeah. 543 00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:12,079 But some of them are organized into modules, which are collections of functions 544 00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:15,440 basically, okay, and so you can pull in the module and then you 545 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,440 can call several you know, several of the functions in there that all do 546 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,400 jobs related to the overarching functionality that you're going to get from your library. 547 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,079 Okay. So the library is just, hey, here's a way to do 548 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,000 a thing in your app. Frameworks are more underpinnings for your app, right, 549 00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:35,759 and so if you know, you talk about flask or in node, 550 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:40,359 you've got like express or Angular view and React and so with those typically what 551 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,559 you're going to do is you're going to pull in React and then you're going 552 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,960 to build the rest of your application on top of it. Okay, And 553 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:52,960 so it gives you essentially a way to build an application, where a library 554 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,160 gives you a way to accomplish a particular task within the application. Okay, 555 00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:01,319 And then that component I saw when I mentioned earlier about my wife's squares square 556 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,920 space page. Like, I just pulled up the home page that had nothing 557 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,639 on it, and it was just had lines and lines of code in it. 558 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:12,719 Yeah, so that was probably just like a framework or it is. 559 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,360 I bet I'm betting, and I don't know this for sure, but I'm 560 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,400 betting that square space has its own framework that does you know, that builds 561 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,559 the page for you essentially, okay, And it may have some underpinnings on 562 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,320 React or view or Angular right, and then it just is more constrained because 563 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,679 it only has to do what squarespace does, you know, because it has 564 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,920 to support things in a reliable and predictable way, whereas Angular, React and 565 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,239 View are designed to get a lot of the minutia out of your way, 566 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,920 give you a way to organize your code, and then allow you to do 567 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,639 whatever you want on top of it, so they have to be rather flexible, 568 00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:49,480 whereas square Space's use CAS is fairly constrained, and so their framework is 569 00:34:49,519 --> 00:34:53,159 going to be much much more focused. And then components Components is a term 570 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,239 that's come up lately and especially in front end frameworks, and it's just a 571 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,039 collection of functionality essentially front to back. Usually it's just the UI layer, 572 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:06,960 but sometimes it encompasses some behavior on it as well, and that's usually implemented 573 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,239 in Angular react or View. I think Aurelia has picked up components though, 574 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,440 and I think some of the other frameworks Dojo, you know, that aren't 575 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,519 as widely used but are still out there. Ember is another one that comes 576 00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:21,159 to mind, so they'll implement components, But I think components is very is 577 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:24,280 a term that's going to vary wildly depending on your framework and language. Okay, 578 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:30,159 and if you go into like React Native, you've got components and views, 579 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,960 and views is the term that the native devs use for a UI element, 580 00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:37,920 and components is the way that React Native actually implements them, and so 581 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,800 sometimes it used interchangeably, and so it gets confusing too, depending on your 582 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,320 context. Gotcha. Yeah, the rest of those terms are pretty well defined 583 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,159 within software development, and so then it just you get into the gray areas 584 00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:53,800 when you have a really really large library that tends to take over a lot 585 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,719 of your application, or you have a framework that is small and focused enough 586 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,039 to where you're only going to use it in certain parts of your application, 587 00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:05,119 and so you can start thinking of it as a large library rather than a 588 00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:07,719 small framework. And so that's that's kind of where you get into the gray 589 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,400 area. But React, View and Angular are pretty squarely in the framework space. 590 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,159 React is the only one that I would argue might be considered a library, 591 00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:20,159 but then the React ecosystem has grown to kind of fill the framework niche, 592 00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:22,800 gotcha. So the one thing with frameworks and libraries too that I don't 593 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:28,400 quite understand, as I have five minutes, Okay, I'm just letting you 594 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,920 know I have another call. Gotcha. Yeah, I'll just make this my 595 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,880 last question. And I might tie in ord press with that too, because 596 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,920 that's the word I hear thrown around a lot. But I imagine like a 597 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,639 framework or library, is that something that is posted, like that's something you 598 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:46,679 download, you host it with your website and it delivers it with your code, 599 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,719 or is that like hold from a different source so you can pull it 600 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,000 from a different source. You'll see some people pull it from a CDN which 601 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:57,920 has got content delivery network, and what they do is they make sure that 602 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,480 frequently accessed stuff is in a cash In other words, it's just quickly accessible, 603 00:37:01,559 --> 00:37:07,039 and so you'll see people accessing from like JSCDN or things like that. 604 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:08,960 And so you can pull some of that code in from there, but usually 605 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:14,320 it's going to be a framework like jQuery that can be pulled in on its 606 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,360 own, and then you'll have other stuff that calls into it. Most of 607 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,679 the bigger frameworks like Angular, View or React, they assume, now if 608 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,360 you can be pulled in the same way, you can actually pull it in 609 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,679 and then run it that way. React and Angular you cannot, and so 610 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,599 what you wind up doing is you pull it into your application, you build 611 00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:34,880 all your stuff, and then you essentially run a build stuff that pulls out 612 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,639 all the stuff you're not using, compresses and condenses your JavaScript, and then 613 00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:40,239 that's all served up with your website. All right, But either way, 614 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,800 it has to be served up with your website, you know, whether you're 615 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,880 hosting it or somebody else that's hosting it, because the browser, if it 616 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,599 doesn't get it off of a reference on your website, it won't load it, 617 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:51,880 and then you won't have it. Okay, Okay, that sounds good, 618 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,400 and then we're last one. Is I hear word press in some regards 619 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,079 it sounds like it's some people like it, other people like it's kind of 620 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:01,800 like I think from their past they regret using or something like that. What 621 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,880 exactly is wor it kind of sounds like a squarespace, but like where it's 622 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,239 it's kind of a UI, but it's got more down to the code kind 623 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,599 of deal, like a framework or libraries. Because I hear I'm talking about 624 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:19,280 plugins and stuff and building websites and with WordPress, what I don't quite understand 625 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,440 that either is that kind of a similar thing. So plugins are usually built 626 00:38:22,559 --> 00:38:28,239 so so WordPress as an example, right, they actually have system and a 627 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,280 series a set of APIs for plug ins to take advantage of, and so 628 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,199 you know, and then they have a mechanism for installing them, and so 629 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,079 as long as they follow the rules, then you know, meaning we're going 630 00:38:39,159 --> 00:38:43,440 to access these APIs to get our work done. And I can be stored 631 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,800 in this folder and can be run in this way, then you know, 632 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,480 I can be a plug in. But it yeah, it really just depends 633 00:38:50,679 --> 00:38:53,079 on the framework for that for a plug in and how they define a plug 634 00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:57,119 in. Those are generally the ways that you look at plug ins. Yeah, 635 00:38:57,199 --> 00:38:59,599 okay, yeah, all right, well we don't even have time for 636 00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:01,480 picks, so I'm going to this up. But yeah, unless you want 637 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,800 to just say Hey, go check this thing out. But other than that, 638 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,719 I would just say I just finished the season of The Card. Some 639 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,320 people like it, some people don't, but I enjoyed it. Yeah, 640 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:15,840 we watched it last night. Yeah, that last scene just got me. 641 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,159 And then I had a chance to go see Hamilton last month and that was 642 00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:23,480 awesome. But I would definitely recommend the soundtrack and also the mixtape soundtrack. 643 00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:28,199 Cool. I'm just gonna remind people to go check out jas remal COF. 644 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,559 It's going to be in May. I am picking speakers today. In fact, 645 00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:32,719 I've already picked a bunch of them. I just need to let them 646 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,320 know. And yeah, so keep an eye out for that. This winds 647 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,920 up coming out, you know, or you listen to this after May fifteenth, 648 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,840 after the conference is over, I will be putting the videos up so 649 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,599 that you can pay to watch them for a few months, and then I 650 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:49,400 think eventually they'll wind up on YouTube. I haven't quite decided how I want 651 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,239 to do that. And then I'm putting on some other conferences. So if 652 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,119 you want to do iOS Rails React Native, those are ones that I'm looking 653 00:39:57,159 --> 00:40:00,320 at right now. And then I've decided just talking to a whole bunch of 654 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,800 my friends in the podcasting space that I'm going to do a podcasting online conference, 655 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,800 so keep an eye out for those. We'll all be listed on dev 656 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,880 chat, dot tv, slash Conferences, and yeah. In the meantime, 657 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,880 max out everybody. Bandwidth for this segment is provided by cash fly, the 658 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,079 world's fastest CDN deliverer Content Fast with cash Fly. Visit c A c H 659 00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:21,480 E F l Y dot com to learn more