Welcome to the UFO Thinktank Craigier with your host Alejandro Rohan. It is I
Alejandro, thank you so much for being with me here again. And well
I've got some news for you, of course, uh some of it you
already know, and that is that I have changed the name back to UFO
Think Tank Radio. Some good and some some uh some different. So the
good news is is course that's UPO Think Tank again. It's independent and I'm
doing my own thing once again. The bad news is, and this will
be a bummer for some of you, Jason will not be joining us,
at least in the foreseeable future. I really really hope he does once again,
because I love the guy just like you guys do. And don't worry,
we're still buddies. But this show is independent of Open Minds now,
so it's something totally separate, and that he is still working for Open Minds,
and at least we're now we're going to not be able to work out
him being on the show. So I know, I know, it's a
bummer. I'm really bummed too. But the show will go on and we'll
continue to bring you UFO news and we'll continue to bring you excellent guests,
including our magnificent guests for this week, who is none of others, then
mister Kevin Randall. And this is exciting because Kevin Randall, as you may
or may not know, Kevin Randall, is one of the main Roswell investigators.
So he's been doing Roswell investigation for quite some time. Of course,
we've had Tom Carey and Don Schmidt on the show. He used to be
partners with Don Schmidt in fact, and then he went off. I think
he did another two in Iraq and then came back and started doing some more
that's right in Iraq. Actually, Kevin Randall has had a long career in
the army. He's retired now as a lieutenant colonel. He served in Vietnam
as a helicopter pilot. In Iraq, he was a battalion intelligence officer,
and so he's a busy fellow. In fact, he studied in journal originally.
He's also got a master's and a PhD in psychology, and he's got
a master's in military studies. But he really went on to be more of
a journalist and author. So he's written sci fi. He's written a lot
of different stuff and he's been into UFOs for a while, and we're going
to talk to him about his origin stories. I've talked about this before.
I love to talk to people about, you know, how they got started
in the UFO field. I call it kind of an origin story because it's
kind of like you know, with comic book heroes, they all have their
origin stories. And we'll get into Kevin Randalls later on when we get him
on the show. It's just surprising to me, actually, because I haven't
had him on before, and he's such a great guests, such an important
person in this field and everything that I shouldn't certainly should have, and I'm
glad that I have now. He actually also was one of the writers of
the movie that turned into the Roswell movie. We've had Paul Davids on at
least once or twice, but Paul Davids was part of this movie and really
kind of produced it and helped put it together. But it was a work
of Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt that they took to make the movie, and
they actually got to be on the set and consultants. If you're not aware,
this is a movie that came out in the nineties and it starred Kyle
McLaughlin and Martin Sheen, some very famous people. So that's really exciting.
So we'll talk to him about that whole experience coming up here in a little
while. However, before that, as always, it's UFOs and the news.
A lot of news this week. There's been a lot going on,
so we have a whole lot to talk about big stories. But this one
is one I was particularly excited about, and that is that the Mars Viking
robots found life on ours. But this is not like the new rovers they
have out there. This is the Viking robots which were in You know,
this was a mission that happened in the seventies, so this data is thirty
six years old. So essentially, here's what happens. They there's some scientists
took this data from the Landers in the seventies and they looked at it again.
The data in the past was kind of written off. They looked at
it and thought, well, this could be a sign of life, maybe
not, but it was eventually written off. Well, some scientists have taken
a new look and they're saying, hey, wait a second here, this
does, in their opinions, show science of life, and this is you
know it's above my heav's chemistry and all this stuff, and maybe some of
you understand it a little more, but essentially that they did find evidence of
some bacteria. So here we are again with the possibility of the discovery of
life in relations to Mars. What's interesting here is that these scientists are pretty
dang confident in their findings. But this news has yet to really make a
real big deal. It's gotten kind of a round and maybe we'll see a
lot more of it this week. It was released by Discovering News, and
this is just a brand new story. I mean, this just came out
just Thursday, so hopefully we'll see some more about it. But it's looking
like the Viking lander could have found life on Mars. Now that would be,
of course, pretty dang amazing, and I can't wait to hear more
about it. But how interesting will it be if you know, finally we
have the answer that it indeed, not only is life abundant in the Solar
System, but it's on the very next planet out there. Of course,
not the closest. I think Venus is closer, but it's our next door
neighbor, for goodness sakes, So pretty amazing news. I'm really looking forward
to that more amazing news. Russia and Siberia are in the news again with
another UFO landing possible UFO landing. Some finesses have described a bright, glowing
light that fell from the sky and fell somewhere in Siberia. Nobody's quite sure
what this was. This was reported on Friday and they're still looking into it.
Of course, we've seen some other things. Not too long ago,
there was something tracked by the military. It turned out to be a bull
eyed essentially just an asteroid. Another object was found recently and that seemed to
be some part of a rocket, but this one is still as of yet
unknown, so search teams are out there and hopefully we'll have some news soon.
But it is pretty interesting that we have yet another possible crash of something.
And that's not all. Red lights in Texas are still a mystery.
So we talked about this, i think last week, where there were some
flickering globes of light in the city. Now officials are saying that this is
probably a hoax, so we're not sure about this one, but they're still
looking into it. But that's still going on and that's made the news more
interesting. However is this one. This is a possible UFO crash, And
this one's really strange. This was reported on Thursday, and this was reported
by witness and one of those witnesses a second witness who was a police officer.
So what they say they saw was some huge green, glowing object the
size of a whale, falling from the sky and crashing into band Tom Lake
in Connecticut. So I mean, of course it would have made a splash,
and of course if we get to see more news about it, I'm
sure they're going to use that headline UFO makes a splash in Connecticut. Anyway,
people are reporting this giant object falling from the sky and landing in the
lake. There have been people looking for it and no one has found anything
yet, but there are several writtennesses, including the police officers. So really
interesting case. They're looking for it, but no one's quite found it yet.
So kind of weird, very weird one they're in Connecticut. I'm sure
we're going to hear a lot more about that. More news. Jets in
England making sonic booms chasing the UFO. Maybe The Sun just reported that two
RAF Royal Air Force typhoon jets flew quickly across several counties, making sonic booms,
waking people up and freaking them out, and witnesses have said they saw
them chasing and checking out a UFO and this UFO was sock shaped, they
say, because it's there's actually a picture in the sun and I guess it's
kind of sock shaped. It really kind of looks like a cloud up in
the sky and you can see this. But witnesses said they saw this scene
flying around, so that was the news. Well of official spokes people have
come out and said that when these planes returned, they did not report any
UFOs and that in fact, the reason why they were flying around is that
there was a civilian helicopter who said that who accidentally issued a hijacked meet may
day. So that's kind of weird. You know, I don't know how
accidentally. You know, you send out a mayde saying a mayda may day
were being hijacked, We're being hijacked, and then oh, sorry, ar
mistake. I think you would know if you were being hijacked. That's just
me, but especially on a helicopter. You only have like five people in
a helicopter, so you pretty much know who your guests are. I guess
it. Maybe someone pulled out a gun and pulled the trigger. They called
the hijack line, and it turned out that the gun was actually a lighter
and they were only lighting up their cigar. One possibility. I don't know.
Hopefully we'll hear some more about this, because I really do not understand
how you can accidentally issue a hijack. May day anyway, in response to
the made a these two jets little cross several countings in England, causing sonic
booms, freaking everybody out. Some people said they saw them chasing around this
UFO that someone somehow got a picture from, and it doesn't really say where
this picture comes from, so I don't know much about that. But they
also disturbed some birds, I guess, some rare birds, and they got
a little scolded for flying above these osprey nests, which they should not have
done because they may I guess, caused the birds to abandon the nests.
And then these poor eggs are not hatched, so they got a goold scolding
and they bloody well better not do that again. Anyway. Moving on other
news that has made a lot of excitement, I guess I should say this
week, I can't remember a way to talk about this one either, you
know, without my good buddy, I can't remember what we talked about last
week. But you know what, it's okay to cover things a couple times.
And actually I know we didn't talk about this. And that is mister
Lee Spiegel of the Huffington Post, good buddy of ours. He wrote about
this and added to it. And that's UFO video from South Korea. It's
a very interesting video. You see this little white thing kind of floating along
and then zips away. Benjamin Radford, I believe his name is from Discovery.
He writes for Little Life's Little Mysteries, and he's kind of always debunking
stuff. But he says he thinks it might have been a water droplet on
the window of the plane that kind of was scooting along and then took off
up the window. And this guy video taped it and it looked like it
was an object that is separate from the plane. That's kind of a stretch.
If you look at the video, you know, this thing does seem
to be separate from the plane. It seems to be further away. It
is very interesting. We did talk about this last week because I remember mentioning
that it was suspicious, also because this YouTube account came up out of nowhere
just for this video. But it's a very interesting video, and I guess
the person who took it is still anonymous, but you're gonna have to take
a look at it yourself and go to the Huffington Post. But one thing
that Leaspiegel did which is really cool is that he interviewed David McDonald, the
guy who runs mouffon about this. He's a pilot himself, which just kind
of see, you know, lots of people are seeing things. He also
talked to Richard Haynes, who runs the National Aviation Reporting Center on anomalist phenomena,
and Richard Haynes as a scientist who started studying UFOs and a pilot and
mainly they're looking for the effects on pilots. And he also interviewed FA official,
former FA official, John Callahan, And you might have seen this gentleman
on the Disclosure Project because he talked about how when he was on the FAA,
there was this famous incident in nineteen eighty six where a Japanese airline had
seen the UFO and reported that and Actually this made big news back in eighty
six. That's way before my time, but not Les Spiegels. Sorry Lee,
But anyway, this made big news. John Callahan worked for the FA.
He was an upper level, higher level official. He says that Reagan's
Science Advisory Board, people from his board and others came to look at some
of their radar data because they caught this thing on radar. They took the
radar data and told Callahan not to say anything. Well, what they didn't
know is Callahan had his own copies of this radar data that he has to
this day, and he showed it at the Disclosure Project in Washington, DC
in two thousand and one, the press conference they had, and he's been
on a couple of television shows talking about that. But Lis Spiegel was also
talking about pilots, and you know, Callahan plays into this idea, is
that pilots often do not report UFOs because they're in fear of being ridiculed.
And I have a friend who that happened to. You know, they actually
questioned his sanity and didn't let him fly for a while because he was into
UFOs. So that's the point that Haynes and these others are making is that,
you know, pilots don't like to report this sort of thing. So
it's a great story that you'll have to check out, a long story with
some really good history and some great interviews by Lee Spiegel. So that's all
on the South Korean UFO siting. Very interesting video. Check it out and
see what you think. Also on the Huffington Post, our good friend Leslie
Kine has written a new blog, and hers is an update on the Chilean
UFO videos. She calls it getting the bugs Out, and essentially what she's
saying is that Benjamin Radford here again. Benjamin Radford interesting enough, you know,
is really he's following the UFO news out there pretty closely, because especially
it teams Flee Spiegel's work, because whenever a story is written about her makes
the news, Radford is out there kind of debunking it or looking for alternative
answers prosaic answers as to what it may be in the video. And for
the Chilean videos, which we talked about, of course we made a big
deal out of them because the UFO Congress is really where the video was shown
first, and that was by General Ricardo Bermudez, who's director of Chili's Investigation
Group, an official group that's part of their FAA. He showed that video
at the Congress, and you know, this is a video where he told
me backstage when we're setting up for it, he said, you know,
this is the most amazing video. This video convinced me that UFOs are real.
Prior to that, he said, you know, maybe they were mistaken
identity, but anyway, you know, Benjamin Radford said, what was probably
seen in the videos is bugs. But he was referring to the videos that
the Huffington Post posted. The Huffington Post posted three videos from one individual.
What he neglected to add to the story, which was in actually my Huffington
Post story. But that's about it. I don't think Leslie Kane wrote about
it. So to Benjamin Radford's defense, he might not known about it unless
he went to SAFA site and actually did some research, or got his talk
at the Congress and did some research. That way, he would have known
that there were actually seven videos in total, seven different witnesses. So it
wasn't all this one witness who took this video. So if it was this
one person taking the video, bugs might play a role, he said,
maybe even bees that were in the area. So if you know, this
guy's taking a video all day long and there's bees flying around, that would
be a possibility. But there's actually several different videos from different angles of these
objects, and the videos are similar. With these what looks like a metallic
object often to this since you know, moving at extreme speeds. In fact,
there are astronomers estimated those things moving at thousands of miles an hour,
and there are astronomers who are skeptics and don't believe in UFOs. Are the
ones who looked at this and said, wow, you know this is now
a folks. These are some metallic objects zooming around. So this is some
weird stuff going on here. You know, astronomers don't mistake bugs. I
don't think I had. That would be pretty satisfaated anyway, Leslie Kane is
making the argument that, no, my friend, mister Radford, I believe
you are wrong. Those aren't bugs. Those are UFOs. So well,
we'll see if Radford has a reply to this, but I hope he does
because I'd like to see what he has to say. Mister smarty pants,
you know what'd be interesting to get him on the show. Sometimes I've wanted
to speak it to him and see what kind of guy he is, because
I think I've said this before and I'll say it again because i'd like to
say it, but as a debunker, and you know, it's good to
be skeptic and skeptical. You know, I admitted I'm skeptic about a lot
of stuff, but that just means that I'm taking a hard look at stuff.
It doesn't mean I'm going to debunk everything. And I don't debunk everything.
Some people think I debunk a lot and I apologize, you know,
and I don't certainly have it right all the time, but I'm just sharing.
I gotta be honest with my audience because I love you people, and
if we're gonna continue our relationship. Strong relationships are based off of trust,
and you need to trust me, and you know what, I'm not gonna
lie to you, and you can take that to the bank. Anyhow.
I've always said that, you know, kind of a debunker someone who just
debunks everything and doesn't want to believe in anything. You know, history shows
these people to be the big bulls, the big suckers, the bone heads.
You know, when you look at and I don't even know the names
of these people because I don't pay attention enough, but some of these people
are rather famous. People said, ah, they're Right Brothers. What are
they crazy? You're not gonna fly up playing up in the sky or what
are you? Yeah, we're not buds, We're not meant to fly.
I don't know if they talked like that or they had a similar accent,
but that's a fun accent to kind of portray this sort of person. But
anyways, they're out there saying, you know, you can't do it,
you can't do it, you can't do it, and they look like damn
fools when the Right Brothers are flying over him and saying, hey, hey,
Bob, remember you said you could we couldn't fly. What are you
doing a fly? You're flying? It's kind of Italian. Some of these
guys were Italian. Actually they were, because there are lots of people to
Columbus, you know, saying what are you doing you can't fly to an
America? Well, there'sn't automatica And he did it. He didn't fly.
Actually he took a boat. Because this was a little while ago before the
Right Brothers. But my point being that These guys who say you can't do
something look like complete bone heads. When something is discovered that they say he
couldn't be discovered, When something is achieved that they say couldn't be achieved.
So my point being, be the hero. The hero is the guy,
you know, the Einstein sitting back there with this wild hair saying, oh,
you know, we can do this and we can do that, and
everybody calling him a fool, and he proves it and he does it.
Those are the geniuses's. I got an Einstein picture right here because I love
the guy. He's a hero. So, you know, skeptics, I
want to say, be a hero, not a historic zero. You may
feel like a hero right now because you're like, look at these boneheads.
They think this is going on and there's nothing going on, and so you
may feel like a hero now, but you're gonna look like a damn fool
down the road when some of this kind of pans out to be real,
trust me, buddy. More News monolith object on Mars bump bump bum.
So this is kind of you know, what's funny is I saw the stories
about this rock on my that looks kind of like a rectangular object there's a
big shadow being cows. The only place I've seen this story, and I
follow all of the UFO stuff, you know, as I'm proving hairs,
as you all know, fairly closely. The only place I've seen this story
is in these stories where it says it's not anything weird, it's just this
rock on Mars, and people are saying that it's a giant monolith. Well,
who are these people? What are you talking about? They're not saying
who these people are. They're just saying, oh, these boneheads are calling
this a monolith when it's just rock, and here we're proven it to rock.
Who are you proven to this to? I don't know what you're talking
about. Some people just here again trying to look like they are proven everybody
wrong. Anyway, it is a very interesting picture, and I wish there
were more details, because no one goes into details this object. Okay,
sure, And I never profess to say, oh, there's a giant monolith
on Mars. It looks rectangular. They're saying it's pixelated, that's why it
looks rectangular. But it's casting a pretty big shadow, and they're saying this
thing actually isn't very big, even though it's got this big shadow. So
I would love to hear the stats because they should be able to determine that
with the shadow, to tell me how big this thing is, because sure
it may not be big, it may not be artificial, but it looks
pretty huge. And even if it is this big natural feature jutting up into
the air on Mars, I'd like to hear more about it because I like
space and I like Space News. Give me some facts here, baby,
That's all I'm saying. Another kind of silly story. It's not a silly
story. It's a great story out there, but they're putting a silly spin
on it. They're talking about Hubble Space telescope. He's a UFO. Oh
my gosh, Hubble UFO. And you go to these stories and there's a
picture of another galaxy. So instead of just saying Hubble space telecoachs sees another
galaxy, a cool looking galaxy, They ohs uf it doesn't look anything like
a UFO. They're trying to say that it looks like a UFO, and
they're using that the marketing spin to put UFO in their title to bring people
to their site. When you see just another picture of a galaxy. Now,
I'm one of those weirdos or I don't know. Many of you are
probably space geeky enough to say to think that every new picture of a galaxy
is beautiful and wonderful and spectacular, and this one is beautiful and wonderful and
spectacular. But I'm sure people who find galaxies pictures of galaxy is boring by
now, because Hubble has a lot of them, are gonna be like,
what, it's another galaxy. Tell me something new that ain't no UFO.
Come on, so they're pulling your legs. That's all I'm borning you is
when you see a story on Foxnews, Space dot Com, MSNBC, all
of these places are saying, oh, well, Space Silico got a umbo.
Don't get too excited because they're just talking about you got another galaxy with
another boring name. By the way, NGC two six eight three is the
name of this galaxy boring? Let's call it something like, uh, I
have no idea. Here's the name, Francisco. Love it all. I'm
seeing someone on Facebook who's on this page. His name is Francisco, the
Francisco galaxy. That's cool. Let's fly to the Francisco system. And go
visit jose Planet. That's fun. Those are some fun names instead of boring
NGC two six eight three. Anyway, I have blabbed long enough, my
friends. I apologize that it's just me blabbing away. I hope you found
it interesting. But what you will find interesting is what's coming up, and
that is my interview with Kevin Randall. All right, I am super excited
to have, for some reason, for the first time on the show.
I guess we just get so busy. It's I've been really dying to have
you on the show since the Roswell event, but we finally have Kevin Randall.
Hello, how are you? I am fine, And I blame you
for not being on the show before because you never contacted me. I know,
you're right. It is completely my fault because things just, you know,
twirl and run and everything's going crazy. And finally, though, I'm
really excited for the first of hopefully many times, because of course, you
do a lot of research all the time, yes, and I find it
becoming easier and easier thanks to the Internet. Now you have to be able
to do and discriminate between the nonsense and the good stuff, and and and
that that really is just sort of a comparison of various sites and seeing what
makes sense to you and how it all tracks together, and kind of relating
one bit of information to another information another bit of information so that you can
kind of figure out what is good solid information and what is just a little
bit off off center, off kilter m hm. And there's there's quite a
bit of off kilter stuff out there. I've noticed, well, the problem
with the Internet, and and and and it's also one of the great things
about it is anybody can put anything up on the Internet that they want.
So if they have real paranoidic views of of the UFO phenomenon, if they're
really outside the box on that, they have the opportunity to put that stuff
on the Internet. And those of us that follow a little bit more traditional
path in that we can look at that stuff and say, yeah, well
that's a little far out for me, but you know, it may key
something in another bit of research I've been doing and suggests something to us.
The best example is this eighteen fifty two story from a Scientific American about this
metal vessel blown out of solid rock, and there was a story about about
it, and it mentioned tubulkane, and I was thinking, who's this tubulcane
guy, and could check on the internet and discover he's a blacksmith from ancient
times and that it's become sort of a Masonic symbol as well. And so
then you wonder, what was this story put into the Scientific American for some
kind of communication amongst the members of the Masons. And there was a mention
of this professor who should be consulted on this metal vessel that was found.
And I thought it was just some made up name, you know, sort
of a character from from a story or something, and I just, well,
let's google his name and discovered he was really a prominent scientist from from
the mid nineteenth century, came from Switzerland and had done a lot of work
in anthropological and paleontology in the United States. So without the ability to google
this stuff, I probably would have never found any of that out. So
it's a wonderful tool, right, That's what I love about it. And
you know, not only can you get your work out there more, but
there's you can learn for people who love to learn. You said you were
watching a you know, a science show just a little while ago. There's
an endless amount of stuff to you no longer have to go to the library
and get an encyclopedia. You can learn from all of this stuff, and
it's never ending exploration and and and and. In a similar vein, you
know, the Encyclopedia Britannica had stopped publishing a hard copy, right, And
you think about that in one way if that's kind of too bad. And
on the other side of the coin is now it's all electronics, so it's
all there for everybody to get to, although I'm sure you have to pay
a fee to use their stuff, But I mean the Scientific American. I
tiped in to my search engine Scientific American June eighteen fifty two and found online
somebody had put all of this stuff online, and I was able to download
the specific page that I wanted in the whole article and everything about it.
I'd already found it at in the bound periodicals at the University of Iola library
and had a copy of it, but I just looked it up online and
it was all there. Would have been much easier than having the search to
all those Scientific Americans to find it when I started out on that many many
years ago. Right. And we'll get into some of that, because I
know you know that your research in the UFO phenomena has changed a lot.
But I wanted to get into because I haven't had you one to talk about
this is I like to say the origin stories, you know, the comic
book heroes, I'll have their origin stories and your origin story about how you
got into UFOs. Were you bit by a radioactive spider? Yes, I
was, I knew it, and I can shoot webs out of my hands
and everything. Actually, no, I've always blamed my mother for this.
Oh, she was a fan of science fiction, and science fiction, of
course is talked about interstellar flight and alien civilizations and alien visitation and that sort
of thing. And it's not a large step from science fiction into UFOs,
which is about interstellar travel and alien visitation and alien civilizations. And so she
kind of fired that that spark in me, and I got excited about UFOs
because this seemed to be the reality to the science fiction. And so I
began studying UFOs when I was a mere youngster so many years ago. And
one of the things that in that timeframe that always was coming up was the
skeptics to the bunkers. The Air Force was saying, well, nobody really
sees anything solid. It's a vague object to seen in the distance. It's
some kind of a indistinct or anomalous blob blob in the distance. And a
front of mine's mother had seen a UFO and I got a chance to interview
her about that, and I had a single question I wanted to ask,
which was was it solid? Did you get it was a distinct object?
And she said yeah, I was hovering about two hundred feet over the barn.
She lived in South Dakota, and it was about to hundred feet over
the barn, and she got a very good look at it, and it
was very solid, and the edges were very well defined. And that in
that investigation, that's really all I wanted to know. I wasn't really interested
in much else about it. I just wanted that bit of information was from
there. It's all sort of spun out of control into all these investigations and
all these searches for additional information. So you got it into this What have
you had your own sighting? I used to answer that question and say no,
But I was a member at one time of the Denver UFO Society when
I lived out in Colorado was in high school. When I was a teenager,
and a friend of mine, Eric Nevatni, and I would go out
to the Denver UFO Society meetings. They had a get together on a ranch
south of Denver near Castle Rock, and we were all sitting around in the
evening around the campfire and we saw a light travel overhead in a mean what
would have been a polar orbit, and at the time, there were no
satellites in that particular orbit at that particular time. It got directly overhead,
it flashed once, and then it continued on. Somebody at the fire said,
oh, they're singling us, and we're thinking, yeah, right,
But I mean, that's the extent of my UFO siding. It's not a
very good one, and just the light moving across the sky that could very
easily have been a satellite, although we checked as best we could and could
find nothing that would have been in that orbit at that time to explain the
sighting. Nothing like the mole robust sidings that lots of other people have,
And that was already after my interest in UFO, so it didn't really spark
anything, right, But I think that's kind of cool, kind of unique
I fit in a camp with you where I got into this prior to having
a sighting, So it wasn't a setting because a lot of people, of
course, are really motivated and into all of this because they had their own
spectacular sighting like you talked about earlier over the barn, But I was similar.
I didn't have my own sighting before I got into all of this.
I think that that the if you're a skeptic or debunker and you have a
sighting it and it's not this ambiguous stimuli, but something very distinct, and
you get a good look at it and you know it's not a medior and
you know it's not whether related phenomenon, it's not some kind of advanced aircraft.
You know it's something other worldly based on what it does and what it
looks like. That's pretty much going to change your mind. You may not
be able to prove to your fellow debunkers or skeptics that these things are extraterrestrial,
but in your own mind, you now know what the truth is because
you've had this sighting. So then roswell, how long have you had you
been I guess actively researching UFOs before you became a Roswell researcher. I look
at it from the point of view, and I did a book called Reflections
of a UFO Investigator, and it kind of lays all this stuff out.
But after I left home, after I graduated from high school and joined the
Army, I had an opportunity to invest to gate a number of sidings based
on where I happened to be stationed with the army, and so I was
studying all I was studying these things all along. So you can say that
the first sort of traveling I had done to investigate a UFO siding was back
in nineteen sixty eight. I got a three day pass from the Army and
had an opportunity to go talk to Carolayne Watts, whose story I think is
probably a hoax. He said it was a hoax, but then then he
claimed the CIA made him say that. When we transferred from Fort Walders,
Texas to Fort Rucker, Alabama, a couple of friends of mine went down
into Florida and we had a chance to investigate the Booksville siding down there.
So you know, we're talking about nineteen sixty seven nineteen sixty eight timeframe.
So I was actively investigating outside my comfort zone, you might say, back
that long ago. It was in nineteen eighty nine that I was action nineteen
eighty eight, I'm sorry, nineteen eighty eight that I was invited into the
QPHOS investigation of the Roswell case. So twenty years prior to getting involved in
the in Roswell investigations, I had been investigating UFOs around the country and in
different arenas, So twenty years before that, and then Roswell took up a
great deal of time. But at the same time I was doing other things
as well and looking into other cases. Gotcha. And then your partnership with
Don Schmidt, I believe, if I remember in Roswell, you told the
story that it began with a debate. Yes, yes, I didn't know
Don Schmidt from Adam. But there was a science fiction convention in Milwaukee,
and there were going to be three science fiction writers arguing with the two guys
up from Quepos about the reality of UFOs, and I was going to be
with the science fiction writers talking about this, and when Don got there,
the other guy couldn't make it, so it was going to be three to
one. I didn't think that was fair, and in the debate. What
you do is argue the best information you have. You don't necessarily provide information
to the opposition, as opposed to an investigation where you want all the information
good, bad, or indifferent. So I switched sides. So I said,
I'll argue with him on the reality of UFOs against Fred Pohle, and
I think George R. Martin, I think with two other guys. I'm
not sure about George Martin, but I know I know Fred Pohle was one
of the guys on the other side. And after we had completed this debate,
Don and I got to talking and he was going to be starting this
Roswell investigation, and given my military background, he thought it would be an
important thing to have because a lot of the witnesses were retired military, and
a lot of the witnesses were from the Roswell Army Airfield in that time him,
so they would have been military and I would have some insights into how
military the military operates as opposed to a surveyan. And he's never served today
And one of the first things I realized is they were talking about Colonel Dubo's
who was Rainy's chief of staff that ate the Air Force, the command directly
above the folks at Roswell. They had been talking about Dubo's being Rainy's aid,
and I said, now, a brigadier general doesn't have a full colonel
as an aide, and the chief of staff is a much more important position
than the aid to a general officer. So I mean that was one of
the one of the first things I noticed was, you know, Dubo's was
not an aid, he was, in fact the chief of staff. So
you were able to clear up some of these sort of things for them,
which is invaluable. Yes, and could could say, you know this guy
would report to this and you know, Walter hot for example, did not
have the authority to issue the press relief without some kind of permission from higher
headquarters or from from his higher his superior officer, specific Colonel Blanchard. You
don't have a first lieutenant taking that sort of a step without the commanding officer
knowing what's going on. So when they say, you know, Walter HoTT
or Jesse Marshall prematurely made this press release about them having a flying saucer,
well it's really Colonel Blanchard who took that step. Because in that specific circumstance,
Blanchard would have known. You you don't go. You don't say I'm
going to put out a press release saying we've got a flying saucer without getting
the permission of the commanding officer to do that. What do you think if
you could, you know, if someone said, what are your top couple
of points and why you think you know? What are the most convincing couple
of points to you or to anyone that you know, Roswell was more than
just a weather balloon or crash test dummies dropped in the desert. I look
at it from the point of view, and this and all some testimony,
But every top officer at Roswell we were able to interview, with a single
exception, told us it was some kind of alien spacecraft. Edwin Asley,
who was a provost marshal you know, think chief of police there, told
me at one point I said to him, are we following the right path?
And he said, what do you mean? And I said, well,
we think it's extraterrestrial. He said, well, let me put it
this way. It's not the wrong path. So I mean, here's a
guy who should have known what was going on, suggesting to us that it
was extraterrestrial. And so every top officer at the base that we were able
to interview who was there at the time, with a single exception, said
it was it was extraterrestrial. So we've got we've got a wide range of
testimony from the ranking officers there. The next point that is very interesting is
if you look at the newspapers and you look at the feeling at the time,
starting with ken Argold's siding on June twenty fourth of the nine objects over
Mountaineer, you see the newspapers. You see all kinds of stories from scientists,
military officials, governmental officials, the manon street trying to figure out what
are the flying saucers, what's going on? Lots of reports of people seeing
strange stuff, hoaxes, of course, people making stuff up, but you've
got a lot of sightings going on. And then you have on July eighth,
you have the story from Oswell, you know they've got a flying saucer.
And the next day, the very next day, July ninth, you
get stories and newspapers around the country that say the Army and Navy moved today
to suppress the stories of flying saucers. Wiz in through the atmosphere. Why
simply on July ninth did they care? Up to that point, they didn't
care. You get quotes from military officers about what's going on and speculation from
him, and suddenly they're trying to stop these stories, and you have to
say, well, gee whiz, what happened to cause this change of attitude,
And of course the answer is Roswell. You see some things like that
going on. There's some documentation that's very interesting. You see a very herculean
effort for them to hide what fell at Roswell, and there's no rational reason
for that. Any technology we had in nineteen forty seven, of course,
has been far surpassed by anything we have today, so there's no reason to
keep this stuff hidden. But we see a herculean effort in nineteen forty seven
for them to hide this stuff, to secure the area, to keep people
out of there, recover the debris, and that all is very suggestive of
something very unusual and something that became highly classified at that time. And none
of the explanations offered, including this nonsensical Project Mogul Idea, really fits that
category. When you look at the Project Mogul Recovery attempts when the balloon's being
launched. Nobody made that sort of herculean effort, because there's any number of
stories about them attempting to recover Mogul balloons. But they don't send out literally
dozens of military people, they don't cord in the area, they don't try
to hide what's going on. Nobody cares because the balloons just aren't that important.
So we've got we've got this whole mystery of what was so important they
went to this herculean effort to hide it. That's one thing that I think
is interesting. One of the points you bring up is that there was a
UFO fervor at the time, and when you read the stories, you can
see that. When you even hear the famous radio account, they like,
what's with all these UFOs? One of them, Christian Roswell, that it
was more than just the Arnold signing, and there was a lot going on,
a lot of sightings happening at that time. In fact, you wrote
about one recently, the Maury Island incident. Which do you feel that that
that may not that may be a little dubious SAT report. I'm pretty sure
that's a hoax, but it's it's a hoax that was driven by the UFO
phenomenon, but it was also driven by Ray Palmer, who edited a science
fiction magazine called Amazing Stories, and he had been hired to turn around this
this failing science fiction magazine, and this guy named Richard Shaeffer had sent him
a story that was right off the wall, talking about these detrimental robots that
are responsible for all the evil in the world and they're they're hidden away in
caves and and he had this this whole thing going about it and talking about
about ships and flying Saucer type ships like that, and so that when that
Arnold thing broke, Palmer jumped on this bandwagon and said, see, here's
proof that the Shaver mystery is real. I'm not making this stuff up.
And he was contacted by one of the guys involved with the Murray Island thing,
and god Ken Arnold involved in investigating it. And so Palmer was kind
of pushing the Moury Island thing is as reality because it helped underscore the reality
of the Shaver mystery. And so you've got these two things going on at
once, and Palmer kind of combined the two things to prove the Shaver mystery.
But I think the evidence pretty clear based on everything that I have seen,
and I know early George Early from Oregon has done. He did a
four part series in UFO magazine about his investigations into the Moury Island case,
and I think he's pretty well established that it's a hoax. Well, that's
one thing that makes you a little controversial when it comes to ris Well is
that you have been early on one of the people to quickly, when you
identify a hoax, to call it out and say, look, I don't
think this is you know, good evidence. I think this witness is a
hoax. And people get upset when that happens. Of course, how do
you feel about you know, did it shock you at first? People's reaction
when you discover that there's hoaxing going on and you call it out, people
getting so upset about that sort of thing. It doesn't surprise me that there's
hoaxing going off. Yeah. What surprised me is, and it astonishes me
repeatedly, is when you have the evidence that it's a hoax and people just
reject that evidence and come up with all kinds of convoluted reasons of why the
evidence isn't as persuasive as it is. And I mean they talk about,
well, this guy said he was in the military, Well there's no records.
Well see, the government was able to take to the height his records
to make him look bad and we would reject the story. And my rebuttal
to that is that's impossible. The take officers. For example, back in
the back up until the mid nineteen seventies or nineteen eighties, there was what
was called the Army Registry, or the Air Force Registry or the Naval Registry.
And what this was was a list of all the officers on active duty.
And these are in repositories around the country. In fact, one of
the things that I enjoyed doing was when I was looking that up one day,
I pulled the one from eighteen seventy seven, and it gave a listing
of all the officers killed at the Little Big Horn because they were no longer
on active duty, and this is why they had been removed from the role
of active duty. And so if you tell me a guy was on active
duty in this time and his records have disappeared, well then my next thing
is, Okay, I'll look at the registry and if his name his names
there, then we've got something. But the names are never there. They
say, well, there was this big fire in Saint Louis and my records
were burned up, But that's not the only place where there were records.
And if you were still on active duty in nineteen seventy three when the fire
took place, your records weren't there to burn up. The Air Force has
an Air Personnel Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, and a lot of the
records for the Air Force guys are there. And so even if your record
burned up in Saint Louis, there's records in Denver. If you went to
flight school, for example, there should be some kind of record at the
place you went to flight school. When I went to flight school in nineteen
sixty eight, I was able to find online again the Internet coming through.
I was actually able to find a picture of my platoon from flight school.
So if you say, well, I don't believe you are an helicopter pilot,
I can point to that and say you go to this place and here's
my platoon, and you read I think I'm in a second position in the
second row. There's my name there are two websites devoted to the companies I
was served in Vietnam, and you go to those sites, my name surface
is there, and in fact, in one of them it actually talks about
me eventually being on Well we saw Kevin Ramble, who was a member of
our unit on television doing UFO stuff. The other site's got a picture of
me in my Vietnam garb and another picture because I'd sent them one from Iraq,
so they showed me in nineteen sixty eight in Vietnam, in nineteen Earth
nineteen two thousand and three in Iraq. So, I mean, there are
ways to verify all of this stuff. But if a guy is not who
he says he is, he's claiming these sorts of things, all that stuff
doesn't exist for them, and there's no way the government could get to all
that stuff and hide it. Yeah, you hear a lot about that,
even with you know, like of course, at one of the big cases
Bob Blazaar, have you ran across or do you believe that any of these
people have been historically erased that actually ever happened. I can't see it.
It's there's a phenomenon which is called stolen valor in which people, and I
say, people, men and women both claiming to be Vietnam veterans, claiming
to be POW's, claiming to have been in special forces, whether it's the
Green Berets, it's Marine recon, it's Navy seals, claiming all this stuff.
And then they say, you try to check their records, and their
records don't bear this out. And they said, well, the government doesn't
like what I've said about this, and they've erased my record to make me
book bad. Well, it's crap. It just cannot be done. There
is too much ancillary information. If, for example, you were to write
to Saint Louis to try to get my military record and they wrote back said,
we've got no record to this guy. I can even provide you with
copies of travel vouchers who we had to fill out to be reimbursed for expenses
on military travel. I've got copies of orders. I've got all kinds of
documents to prove this. I actually have written to Saint Louis as my mother
in law to see what kind of information I would get in return, to
see how how badly mangled it is. And when I wrote for my Air
Force record, it had me as a first lieutenant, and I realized that
it's because when I left Richards Goubauer they issued a DD formed two fourteen about
that, and I was only a first lieutenant at the time, and so
they picked up the record from the information from my Army service for the D
four form two fourteen. So why when I wrote to Saint Louis, it'd
only pulled that information for Air Force. If you write for my army record,
you get a whole different story. So the information is all there.
But if you weren't who you said your records, I'm going to be there.
And if you couldn't find that, I can point to other places.
You can go independent of me to verify what I say, And these people
can't do that. It all relies on what they say in documents they produce.
What one hoaxer. Do you think has done the biggest damage to the
Roswell story? Oh? Man, the biggest? Are there too many?
Unfortunately, I would I would get there. There are two that spring to
mind immediately, Frank Kaufman, of course, and then Gerald Anderson, and
I think I think both of them have done a great deal of damage to
it. Kaufman may be the worst, because Kaufman was there in Roswell and
talking about the events in Roswell, where Anderson's talking about stuff over on the
plains of Santa Agustin, which is sort of an ancillary part of the Roswell
case. I guess Frank Coufin would be the worst. Now he is generally
accepted for the most part, right as someone who is a hoaxer. Are
there still people who believe? Do you? Yeah? Is what strikes me
is incredible, you know, I believe the story in the beginning. I
mean, Frank Kaufman would present us a documentation when when needed, and things
like that, and and these seemed to be a very credible witness. One
of the things is the yearbook was produced that was produced in Roswell nineteen forty
seven. I had a picture of Frank Kaufman in there getting a medal.
Looking looking at the metal closely, it appears now to be a World War
two victory medal, which they gave to everybody who served in the in the
US military during the during the Second World War. So I don't know why
there was some kind of presentation of this metal to him in Roswell in nineteen
forty seven. But I mean he's in the yearbook, so I mean this,
this makes you look credible. But as we as we investigated further,
you know, we found we found the evidence. We found the things the
separation papers that he provided to us, we found the real copies and they
didn't match up. We found that he wasn't in intelligence as he claimed,
he was an administrator in the administration. If we found he hadn't been a
mattress sergeant as he claimed, but he was a staff sergeant. So there
were a lot of things that were wrong with what he said. So and
when I say we, I know Mark Rodicker and I did a big story
for the International UFO Reporter about this, and it's come out other words,
and people still say to me, well, how do you know Frank Kaufman
was an agent of disinformation? Now, he was just a guy who plugged
himself into the Roswell case for the spotlight that it brought to him and the
financial rewards. And I know that he was paid for interviews on a number
of occasions, so there was a financial reward, and there was then he
got to see his face on TV. But the thing is, there are
people who still think there's something real to his story, that he's got part
of it right. We should listen to what he had to say. No,
we reject everything he has to say. If we can't corroborate it from
another source, and we got it from another source, then we don't need
Frank Kaufman. And that's It's the sad thing. And I can point to
any number of cases where the originator of the hoax is admitted that it was
a hoax, They signed documents that it was a hoax, and we still
argue with those points. Viaen Day Letters come to mind. The guy went
to apro and said, I made the whole thing up and signed a document,
and then years later he decided he wanted to retract his statement. But
everything that you can find about it suggests this thing is a hoax. And
yet here we are in twenty twelve, still arguing about the reality of the
Day Letters. One of the things he said in one of the annotated books
was arguing about this airplane, the Stardust that disappeared in nineteen fifty two.
I think it was maybe he's nineteen forty eight. I forget. It disappeared
in South America and in the Enday Letters book, there's an annotation about this,
and it said that the airplane had gotten too close to the one of
their ships and it was destroyed. Well, the wrecks of the he was
found eventually, around ten twelve years ago, they found the wreckage and what
happened is they flew into him out And so if Yendi was who he said
he was, they had known that. So it's just it's just that sort
of thing and you and you provide that information and they say, yeah,
but what about this? What about that? Ayendi, by the way,
gets this to the Philadelphia experiment. So that's that's where people want to keep
talking about this. But the guy made it up. He said he made
it up. I did a story about it the Allende Letters in Official UFO
magazine in the mid nineteen seventies, and Carlos Ayendi, Carl Allen read the
article and sent a copy of it annotated back to the publisher, and the
publisher sent me a copy of I've got one of my stories. Carlos A.
Yendi actually annotated the about the story. But you find out things.
The is that the Navy was very interested in the End Day's Letters when they
got them. Well, it turns out that's not quite right. What happened
was two guys who worked for the Office of Naval Research were interested in it,
and the Navy had no had no reason to reject them from working on
it if they wanted to. They didn't, you know, if they wanted
to go ahead and work on it on their own time, as long as
Navy funds weren't involved, they didn't care. The Navy didn't care. And
so it comes out that the Navy was very interested in they sing and they
did all this research. Well that's not really quite accurate. Two guys in
the Navy, and the fact they were in the Navy followed them. I
mean, I had a similar circumstance where I was investigating some alleged landings in
Iowa, and I was also in the Air Force Reserve at the time,
but I was doing it as a private citizen. But somebody saw the bumper
sticker on my car for the base and told the media that the Air Force
had been out to investigate their UFO setting. Well, no, it me
wasn't the Air Force. The fact that they just they just saw the bumper
sticker and made an assumption that wasn't true, and a lot of that goes
on if people make these assumptions that aren't true and keep these things alive when
they we should have driven the stake through the hearts of them long ago and
stopped the investigations and moved on to more lucrative areas of investigation. That's what
seems to be at least it's frustrating. I think it's really frustrating when it
comes to Roswell research is that people will hold on to these hoaxes so tightly
when it's not necessary. There are a small number of hoaxes as opposed to
all of the incredible witnesses that you all as a Rosewell dream team, you
know, you and and Don Schmidt and Tom Carrey and if you include SANM.
Freeman. I mean, the number of witnesses you calls have gotten is
pretty impressive. You don't need those those hoaxes in that maxe to you.
No it and it hurts, And it hurts because a lot of times people
only remember the hoaxes. I think of Bill Buckner. What does everybody remember
about Bill Buckner? While he was playing first base and the ball went between
between his legs and allowed the other team to score a run and they ended
up winning the World Series. They don't remember the probably hundreds of great plays
Bill Buckner made. They remember that one thing. There was a movie Tin
Cup with Kevin Costner about the US Open and he was trying to drive the
ball over this this water hazard and kept dropping the ball, and at the
end of the movie, his girlfriend says, nobody. You know, in
ten years, nobody's going to remember who won the US Open this year.
They're going to remember you're twelve on that hole. And it's the same thing.
You know. They don't remember all the good witnesses that we have,
all the good testimony we have. They remember, oh, well, you
know, Frank Couflin was coming to lie about this, So you know,
that really hurts. Hurts the investigation and then people hanging on to it,
wanting to believe that there's something something there that we should that we should follow
on, there's something there that we need to research, and I'm thinking,
no, not with that. We need to move into arenas that are going
to pay off in a good way. It's funny you bring up the golf
because you know, just this last weekend, co Heer said the Masters,
the big news is Tiger screws up, Mickelson screws up. And you know,
the big news isn't the people who won and the great news. So
let's move on to good news instead of the bad stuff. I guess,
which is what I think is an incredible movie. It's one of my favorite
just overall movies in general, just because I love that someone made a movie
about some real research, and that's nineteen ninety four, the Roswell movie that
your credit as one of the you got to help with research on this movie.
What was that experience like and how did it start? How did it
happen? Well, first of all, let me let me say this.
I find it incredible that if you look me up on the Internet movie database,
I'm actually there, I know, along with all the Hollywood stars.
You know, I think I'm on the Internet movie database for Trainee is what
happened? What happened is Donna I wanted to do after I think our first
trip to Oswell, we were driving down the Interstate twenty five heading toward the
airport, and I said, don you know, we could do a book
about this. We've got to do a lot more research, but we've got
to do a book. So I'm now in the process of trying to convent
a publisher that they should publish this book. And we knew Paul David's from
California. He had a UFO siding that was very interesting by the way,
his wife worked at Columbia Pictures. And I said to Don, if we
can get Paul David or his wife just to you know, suggest that they're
you know, the story interests, and we might be able to convince a
publisher to publish the book. And what happened was Paul David got really excited
about the project and thought it was a good idea. So he put together
what they call it treatment and went around to his contacts in California to try
to sell the movie idea. Eventually, HBO was going to do it,
but they decided not to, and I don't know what the real reason was,
but he eventually got it sold to a showtime and and so we had
an opportunity to provide the research for the movie. I got to be on
the set as the military advisor and one of the technical advisors, and Done
was on the set as one of the technical advisers, and we got you
know, it's based on the book UFO Crash at Rosald by Kevin Randlin Dodgement,
which is kind of a neat thing to do. So we got the
opportunity to watch them make a movie. We got got an opportunity to be
in the movie. Unfortunately, I'm kind of hard to see and Don has
his back to the camera. If you know Don, you know it's him.
And if you look at the right place, you can see me in
the film. Uh and and and you know, we got to see the
dailies every night while we were down in filming in Arizona. They would have
the have the dailies at one of the hot the hotel room, and I
got there late one night for some reason, I don't know why. I
didn't get there right when they started the dailies. And I walked into the
room and the director said, and I couldn't believe this. They said,
oh, start over, Kevin got it just got here. I'm thinking,
Wow, this is really nice. You can have to make everybody sit through
this stuff again, so I can see it from the beginning, which was
kind of cool. But we you know, I had we got an opportunity
to though I'd input on it. I would tell the director this isn't exactly
the way the military would do it. I was helping the costumers make sure
the military uniforms were right, and the one day I wasn't on the set,
they put put insignia on the collar of Marcell's Marcelle's uniform that was incorrect.
Oh. And then I then, of course, I have my great,
my great Kyle McLaughlin story. The first day we're on the set,
he comes out in his his major marcell uniform and he says, is this
right? And I said, well, you've got the major's leaf on sideways.
And I fixed that, and I fixed the other insignia, and I
realized his gigline was off, which which is the you know, the line
along the shirt down past the bell buckle into the fly of the trousers,
and the belt buckle was off. So I reached down and started unbuckling his
pants. Oh wow, And my thought was, you know how many women
would love to do this? And then my second thought was, you know,
maybe I shouldn't be unbuckling his pans. So I I said, well,
we can fix your giglin. I said, I'm go ahead and fix
it. So I adjusted his belt buckle so the Giglin was proper. So,
I mean, this is a great thing. We got an opportunity to
meet meet with a number of very famous people. Uh not only com McLaughlan,
Dwight Yoakum got to got to have a nice couple of nice chants with
him. Xander Berkley. I didn't really know who he was at the time,
and I said, so I wanted to get an idea of what movies
he'd been in prior to this one. So I said to him, what
are some of your favorite movie roles? Thinking you know, and I said,
well, I don't know what you've been in. Tell me. It
was what are you like? And he said, well he got killed by
the terminator and terminator too and I thought, oh, that's this is And
Ali said he had sent Tom Cruise to Cuba in a Few Good Men,
so he's got he's got a roll a small role in that film as well.
So next time I saw a Few Good Men, I made sure that
I would see his role in that. We got to go to a couple
of Hollywood premieres. Because of that, we got to go to the premiere
of Therosmo movie, which was kind of kind of and we got to meet
Robert Wise, who'd done the day they were student Stille. He'd come to
the premiere of our movie. Got to meet him and things like that.
So, you know, the movie got all of this stuff, and it
was really kind of neat being on the set and watching them doing and realizing
they spend all day, they spend twelve fourteen hours and if they get three
minutes of film they're happy. I mean all this stuff. You get three
minutes of film, and the elaborate processes of setting things up and making sure
the scenes are right, and then you go you go on the Internet movie
database, and you've got all this stuff about the continuity being off in movies,
you know, and you're not filming the thing in sequence. So you
might film a scene outside and then three weeks later, a month later,
you're filming the inside scene. So when the guy walks through the door,
it seems seamless, but the scenes may have been filmed weeks apart, and
so they're taking polaroid pictures so they can try to get the costume to look
the same in all of that, and and it's just an incredible process.
And so you get an idea of how hard and difficult it is. And
then you see the the internet people with well in this movie, his time
was on this way and when he walked out the door, it was on
this way. Well yeah, big woop. You know, you take some
of the magic out of the movie that way. But it was an incredible
process to see all the the herculean effort to go to get this stuff right.
And but but again, at one point I said to the director that
there was something not quite right. Well, they were addressing one of the
one of the people wrong, not in the military way of doing that.
And the director says, you know, we're making a movie, you're not
a documentary. And I said, yeah, okay, I get it.
You know if so so again, when you watch a movie about a historical
event, you have to think in your mind they're making a movie, not
a documentary, So they play with the facts a little bit for the context
of the movie. If they're making a documentary, then they need to get
the stuff right. But if they're making a movie, well, you know
they're doing for the flow of the movie. They make combining characters so that
you don't end up with fifteen characters when you only need three to really move
the plot along and things like that. I mean, it's hard to keep
track of all the characters and all of this stuff when you're watching the movie.
So it's nice to have those sorts of things. But it was a
really interesting process to watch them make the movie. And like I said,
I got to sit around all day in costume as a nineteen forty seven reporter.
Yeah, that's waiting for my big role, my big opportunity to go
into the movies. And then Martin Sheen of course in it Who for the
younger people. That's Charlie Sheen's dad's And my favorite scene in any movie is
in What the movie with machines in it, Where's He's one of the parodies
of the military movies. And they're both one going up river, one's going
down river, and they look at each other and they both yell, I
loved you on Wall Street. Oh that's pretty funny, you know so,
And I can't remember the name of the movie at the moment. What I
love about the movie, like you said, you know, Hollywood plays with
things to bring some drama to it. It's not like they said, it's
not a documentary. But what I love about it is that it's based on
research that there's a lot of what really or what you will have found to
have happened. Dwight Yoakum also was a great mac brasle. Whenever I think
of mac Brasel, I think of Dwight Yoakum. But and the big controversy
about that was is we had pictures of Dwight Yoakam without his hat on.
So we realized everybody realized he was going bald. Oh how funny. Yep,
so he left his hat on. I don't think he had anything without
the hat huh. Well, no, he had in a couple of scenes,
he didn't have his hat on. Oh okay. And I remember seeing
in a newspaper or reading in one of the tabloids or something about this,
and it was it was the big deal that, you know, his pictures
of Dwight Yoakum without his hat on, and it was from our movie How
funny? So how do you think it holds up to me? It seems
like, you know, that's what's neat about it is it feels like,
you know, with this event and what seemingly happened. Some of these behind
the scenes discussions with the military and government officials were probably similar to what might
have really these conversations might have really been, Like I think part of the
thing that they were doing is attempting to find a way to move the story
along, and they did it with composite characters adding pull. Jessie Marshel Senior,
of course, never investigated the Roswell case, but for the movie he
became. He became the way of moving the story forward that he's looking for
these various aspects of the case. So they said it in a dramatic environment,
but they tried to hold it the facts of the case as best they
could to what we knew in nineteen ninety four about the case. So you
might have a character who doesn't didn't exist in real life talking about part of
the story to move it forward. But it's a composite of two or three
characters. I know in the movie, Glenn Dennis didn't want wouldn't sign the
release to allow his name to be used in the movie. Oh right,
I did notice his name is different, and I don't think I ever asked
about that. Yeah, well, and he wouldn't sign the release. So
what they did was he used Paul David's name. Because Glenn Dennis is like
two first names, and Paul Davids is like two first names, So they
did a play on Paul David's name in the film David Paul or Paul David
or something like that. They say like that, And so he became the
mortician who tells the story about ordering the or getting the call about the small
coffins. And so they tried to maintain the factual framework of the story but
put it in a fictional context. And like I said, you know,
the director, Jeremy Kagan was well aware of what he was doing, making
a movie and not a documentary. If the two collided, the factual basis
collided with the framework of the story, well then he went with the story.
And that's exactly right. He was making a movie. If he was
making a documentary, then he would then required to stick with the facts,
but since he was making a movie, he had been them to fit the
framework of his film. How did you fill with the results? Oh?
I love the movie. Yeah, I love it too. I uh well,
I especially love one watching the opening credits where it's based on the book
by Kevin Rand. You watch that over and over again? Oh yeah,
do you flame on that? Let's get pictures of that and then of course
at the at the end, watching the closing credits, look for my name
crawling across the closing credits. But going to what about the middle stuff in
between the credits? Did you like that? Did that? They're not?
All right? Yeah? That was that was good too. But but going
to going to premiers, they got to go to a couple of Hollywood premiers
because Paul David's had invitations, and he took on and met a couple of
Hollywood premiers. And what I found interesting is how the audiences would have plod
the names as they came up on the on the screen, you know,
directed by yay, you know that sort of thing. And and and they
sit there quietly and watch the movie, and they sit there through the closing
credits. Nobody walked out when the credits ran. The credits like in a
regular movie, everybody who cares about the credits and they leave. But in
the Hollywood, when they're at the premiere, they watched the credits. They
want and the apod for people. Did you get some applies? Yes,
but only because I started it. I was flapping for me and everybody picked
it up. Yeah, yeah, ran, well way to go. What
about the aftermath. Did you have a lot of people coming to you afterwards,
maybe more witnesses or some maybe well known people or high ranking people who
came to you to talk about the film, not after the movie, after
after some of the documentaries. Yeah, we we found people after the documentaries
and people came forward. That was how gerald Anderson appeared. As a matter
of fact, after Unfaded Mystery had done the program about about Oswell, gerald
Anderson sent both me and Stan Friedman a letter. I just have to talk
to talk to him first about his alleged involvement. But but some of that's
how we learned of it. But a lot of the witnesses that we found
we went out and searched for. We had that yearbook that that Walter hot
had produced in nineteen forty seven, and what a tool that turned out to
be, because here's a list of I forget what the number he has made,
twenty five hundred people who are signed to the base. We've we've got
pictures of him and a list of their names. There was a phone book
that had been produced for the base in nineteen forty seven, so we had
the names of a lot of the officers in that phone book. And one
of the reasons I point that out is a woman named Elaine Vay, who
contacted us after the Unsolved Mysteries program, said, here, uncle Darlant Rasmussen
had been at the base in nineteen forty seven, and so we looked him
up in the yearbook and he's not there, but he is in the phone
book. So Walter had told me that ten to fifteen twenty percent of the
people who were signed to the base in nineteen forty seven would in the yearbook,
but we could we could place Darlin Rasmussen there because we found his name
in the telephone directory, and so we would we would go down these lists
of names. I went. I tried to find the people in the MP
squadrons, for example, to talk to them about what their involvement might have
been. So we had a list of a lot of those people, and
we're continuing to follow that today, looking for people who were appeared in the
yearbook. Now we're twenty years down the road and we're talking to guys who
are ninety and when we can find them alive, or we're talking to family
members about what the family members may have their their relatives may have said to
him about the Roswell case. But we still find some people alive today who
who can tell us a little bit about this, what's happened to me in
the last couple of months, and the people I've talked to. I talked
to one guy who is in Minnesota. I remember he was in Minnesota and
I thought would all he'd be a Vikings fan. Turned out he was a
Green Bay fan. Kind of surprised me. But I talked to him briefly
and he said, well, no, he wasn't really directly involved, but
some of his friends were and they told him a little bit about it.
So, I mean, I found a guy who was alive from that time
frame who talked about what he what his impressions were, what was going on
at the base at the time. And I know, I know, what
does he believe that? Oh yeah, he talked to his friends had told
him that they had been involved in it, and that like that. I
found an MP who wasn't involved, and he said when they when his friends
told him about it, he didn't believe him until he saw the story in
the newspaper. That tells me. It tells me that the guys were out
a cordoning off the area prior to Wolverhowt's press release, and they would came
back into the barracks and we're talking about what they had seen, and the
guy said, I I didn't believe HI until myself story in the newspaper.
Wow. There was another guy, guy named Piles. Piles, and he
talked about seeing something in the sky, traveling across the sky one night,
and he said he wasn't he didn't think much about it until he saw the
article in the newspaper a couple of days later, Well, that might have
been the thing. Which is interesting because Carl Flock and his book was making
explaining how Don and I had made up this story about Piles and what he
had seen and what he had done, and Piles couldn't even remember what time
of year it was and even what year it had happened. And then my
two paragraphs later in Carl's book, the guy says, you know, a
couple of days later, when I saw the object, I saw the article
in the newspaper, I realized that might have been the thing I saw.
I'm thinking, well, gee, where that puts it in the first week
of July, just like we said, and the skeptics can't seem to read
from you know, halfway down the page from he's saying, you guys couldn't
even the guy couldn't even remember what time of year and year it was.
And three paragraphs later he's pinned it down to a speci think week in July
of nineteen forty seven. So the Rosewell Dream Team. I wanted to get
to that this is something new that you and Don and Tom have gotten together.
And I think a couple of people have been added to the team too.
How did this come about and why now? Tom Kerry, after we
had talked down in Roswell, called me one day and wanted to do wanted
it was something I had thought about as well, and in fact i'd actually
approached the publish here before we got down to Roswell this last time, suggesting
we do the definitive Roswell book. Look at all the evidence, look at
everything we've got today, put it in perspective as we understand it today,
the skeptical arguments, the Air Force arguments, all of this stuff. And
Tom called me and he had a similar idea and thought that he and I
should get together to put together this book. And I said okay, and
we made a deal that if I sold the book, my name would go
first. If he sold the book to his publisher, his name would go
first. And we talked about this and he said, well, we've got
to get Don involved in this, and I said, yeah, yeah,
we've got to. So we you know, he talked to Don about this
and Don Don of course came right on board. And then as we were
thinking about it later on, we said, you know, there are some
other people who should be involved in this. David Rudiac, for example,
who's done all that work on the Rainy memo. We need to get his
take on this thing and bring his information to bear on this problem, because
if we can get a consensus on what the Ramy Memo says by disinterested parties.
For example, we've got a document that we've got a clear providence for
because Ramy's holding in his fist, and we know when the pick sure was
taken because we've got the documentation from the Bettman photo archives. And so here's
a document with a clear providence, and if we can just decipher what it
says to the satisfaction of the majority of the people, then we've got a
nice piece of evidence. Yeah, that's great and just for people who might
not know. It's one of the pictures, the famous pictures black and white
pictures where they're holding the radar, Yeah, when they's got the weather balloon.
The pictures taken in Ramy's office. There's two pictures of Ramy, two
pictures of Ramy and Dubau's and two pictures of Jesse Marcel. And in the
pictures with Rainy in them, he's holding a piece of paper in his hand.
Well, it turned out in one of those pictures it's turned in such
a way that you can actually if you've got to blow up of the picture,
you know, a kid with a magnifying glass can read some of the
words. I mean, clearly you can read part of it, but a
lot of it is very obscured. Which words are you confident about, Well,
there's only really there's five words that at this point of investigation, since
we're kind of relooking at this, there's five words that I think. There's
one point where says Fort Worth, Texas. And there's another point where it
says weather balloons and the balloon is misspelled. But I mean those jump out
at you, and so truly you can read part of this some of the
other stuff you can read. Yeah, it looks like it says that it
may. But in today's environment, as we improve our techniques, we might
be able to get more and more of this. And I know it's we
can looked at from a number of different points of view by a number of
different investigators, not just doctor Rudiac, but some other people are attempting to
get independent corroboration of what this says. And if we can get two,
if we get three or four of those people, we can get a consensus
of what it says. Depending on what it says. Doctor Rudiac says,
there's one point where says victims of the wreck. Well, that's pretty specific,
right, and discs recovered. Yes, yeah, that's pretty specific.
There's others who said that the victims of the wreck is actually remains of the
wreck. Well that's that's a little bit different. But if we can get
a consensus on some of those sorts of things from independent not researchers, but
more independent researchers who are disinterested in the Roswell case, then we've got a
very very good piece of evidence to look at. So you know, we're
looking we're looking at all that sort of thing. I've spent some time trying
to get the nodems, which your notices to airmen, which are published all
the time, and you know what they are is hazards to aerial navigation,
changes in airport runways, runways are out of service for whatever reason, things
like that, And so I was looking to get to see if the notems
for July, June and July of nineteen forty seven still existed anywhere. And
just today, as a matter of fact, I heard from the FOYA officer
at the FAA who said that all those documents have been long destroyed, not
improperly. The notems have a shelf life and they would routinely purge their files
of the notems. There's no repository for them, there was no archives.
Nobody thought to save them, especially back in nineteen forty seven, because who
would care. So just today we learned that that avenue of the investigation has
now been shut down and it's not going There's one other bit of information about
the notems that may come into play, but we're not going to be able
to document anything from the notems from the FAA. So, you know,
just kind of one of the breaks of the game. It's exciting though that
you guys still work on this, You're still making discoveries, and I think,
what, of course, what would be ironic? And from talking to
you and Don and Tom I had them on the show as well, and
you know, talking to you Owen Roswell, is that it's possible that this
still may be the case that that breaks stuff open. You still have the
chance of discovering some evidence that is just like the memo or other pieces that
you're working on, that may be the one to really break this open and
show that it's it's credible to the public. Well, we're and we're looking.
We're looking. We're looking at the stuff that has gone on before us.
I mean, I've got literally hours and hours of taped interviews with witnesses.
Well, let's see if there was something somebody said early on that we
missed because at the time it seemed unimportant, but now is incredibly important from
what we've learned from that from that point, So we go back and reviewing
all of that sort of thing. I know, some of the stuff that
we're finding in newspapers about the Mogul project and what Irving Newton, who was
the weather officer at what were said about this in nineteen forty seven as opposed
to what he said much later, when we're finding out there's a real contradiction
there, and that's becoming very important. About the frequency that these weather balloons
with the radar reflectors were launched around the country. We find out that even
though they said in the mid nineteen nineties, well, they didn't use them
very often and they were very unusual and sort of thing according to the newspapers
back in nineteen forty seven, it wasn't that unusual, and a lot of
places launched them. So we can go back and in fact, Newton says
that is quoted saying that in one of the newspaper articles. So we can
go back and look at that stuff. Right, Well, we're about out
of time. It was a lot of fun. You're working on a new
book. It looks like like I had mentioned Murray Island and that's going to
be in there, including this roads photograph taken in July seventh, nineteen forty
seven, in the Phoenix area I'm living in, which is a really cool
photo. And you've done some great work there which people can read at your
site. Kevin Randall dot bugspot dot com. Yes, they can, they
can go. They can go. They can go to Amazon dot com and
if they've got a kindle or an iPad with a Kindle lap on it,
they can download the Reflections of a UFO Investigator and begin reading it almost immediately
excellent. And then they can also go to IMDb and read all about You
and then the movie Start Business You've you've gotten yourself into. Yeah, that
just cracks me up. I'm I'm I'm in. I'm up there with people
like Paul Newman, I'm at the Internet movie data by its cracks me up.
And then your Amazon bio I saw I said you hope to be in
the Amazing Race. Yeah, I didn't remember saying that, but but yes,
I've always I've always enjoyed the Amazing Race. I know the guy I
should go go on it with a friend of mine named Tim Bantz, who
has been a voting rider for twenty five thirty years and they're always sending him
around the world to voting shows and things like that. And I thought,
here's a guy that would know the ins and outs of working the airport systems
to get us to locations as quickly as possible. So I've always said if
I was going to go on one of these shows, I think it'd be
the Amazing Race, because that looks like it'd be the most fun. Yeah.
Well, you're in IMDb, so you're also eligible to be on Dancing
with the Stars. Now, I think I did not know that. I
think I will tell you that if they ever got that far off the list,
I would find a reason. Not that he on it, not when
you're looking forward to no, but but Sean Johnson, who won the gold
medal in the Olympics in gymnastics from Iowa de Moine, Iowa, she won
Dancing with the Stars. So I say that because I live in Iowa.
Gotcha. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I
think obviously there's a lot more to talk about, so hopefully you'll come back
and we can catch up on more of what you're always up to. You
have the phone number, yep, I sure do keep it on file.
Yeah, there you go. All right, Thanks, thank you, Thanks
for joining me again everybody. That wraps up our show, And no worries,
we're still gonna be around. We're still gonna be here doing shows.
UFO Think Tank Rocks and of course, for all of the news that I
talked about earlier, you can find that at UFO Daily Dotdailynews dot com.
You're gonna need to make this your new source for UFO news. If you
haven't already beautiful site ufodailynews dot com. You can get to UFO Thing Tank
there. Also, you're gonna have stories on the front page. But at
the top you're gonna see the UFO news Feed and if you go to that,
you're gonna see several stories. I mean, this is up today.
If you go here hourly, you will get the latest and the best news
and you're just gonna be floored. You're gonna be like, ow do it.
This is amazing. I am up to date by the minute with the
UFO news going on. How can I get anything better? And you can't
because it doesn't get any better than ufodailynews dot com. Also, maybe next
week, but very soon, I'm gonna have more exciting news because as things
change, sure they're different. Sure you're scared, you're thinking, what am
I gonna do? Is love Jason? Love Jason. Jason's gonna be around.
He's my good buddy. I'm sure we're gonna have him on the show
again. We're gonna get him back. But change can be good because there's
gonna be new and different things going on and it is gonna be exciting.
Speaking of new and different, I really need to give a shout out to
my good buddies who gave me actually a new close song which you're gonna hear
in a second, and that is written by these cool dudes named Nick Reyes
and Pablo and the Ras Viva Vivas Pablo. I love the name anyway,
Thank you Pablo sent me this music. I love it and I'm gonna be
using it for my close music. So thank you very much for joining us
once again with UFO Zinc Tank Radio, and we will talk to you next
week. People, are you