What's up, y'all is Drewski and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The Duzone with Drewski. Learn the backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Rappers even started on the topic? Come on, bro, I had that old tell you like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and anymore. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewski on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Brandon Kelly, the host of Blue Iires new podcast Golden Goals. Everybody Else from Lionel Messi to Marta to Pelee. Our show takes a deep dive into soccer superstars. What a welcome from Meghan Rappino. From Zlatan Ibrahimovich's brash confidence with the play to back it up to Megan Rapino's heroic outspokenness and World Cup up flair, each episode examines a personality of the world's game. We'll dig into Maradona's hand of god performance and subsequent downfall, the teenage trio at Dorton that signaled the next generation of superstars, and that infamous headbutt that slung Zenadin Zadan from Glory Golden Gold Soccer Stars and the moments that made them premiering this summer on Blue Wire, what is kracking Hardwinnox listeners, I am dam Pavalley coming at you outside of Hardwoknox's decade rankings bubble. This time, I have a special guest for you guys today, Yasmine. She is a co host for the Dishes and Dimes podcast, which talks about the Toronto Raptors and the NBA at large. I highly reckom mend you check it out if you have not already. She is also the creator and writer at an NBA culture journal called The Neon Playbook. She's written some great pieces over there. We're going to talk about some of them. We're going to talk about the NBA's bubble at large as usual at this point, also about how players might use the platform to continue protests against police brutality and racial inequality. That's become a typical topic around these parts as well. We're also going to talk player archetypes, and then we get into a deeper dive into the Toronto Raptors and their their title defense, which is a legitimate title defense. We're talking about what's going to happen for them once the season resumed and the playoffs start, looking at their players matchups, whether they are the biggest threats of the Bucks in the East. But we also talk about their their big picture because they have a lot of interesting decisions to make this summer, given how many players are entering the free agent market and simultaneously their aspirations for twenty twenty one free agency. Before we get to Yasmin, though, I just wanted to continue reminding and begging, pleading with you to rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast wherever you are consuming it. Subscriptions and downloads are most appreciated. If you can go over to iTunes, throw us that five star review, write a review, constructive criticism, feedback, suggestions, comments about Adams Cavs. We really appreciate all of it, even if you're not using iTunes. Again, that stuff helps us out a lot. But you can also subscribe to us wherever elt you're getting your podcasts. If you have done slash are doing all those things. We'd appreciate some recommendations, retweeting our promos, telling friends, family members, acquaintances, co workers, random people on social media. Any endorsements you can give, we forever appreciate. Finally, shout out to our sponsor as always been online dot ag. You will be hearing from them in just a couple of moments. Now, though, let's get to Yasmin and talk about the NBA at large and the Toronto Raptors. Yasmin, thank you for coming on. I know this is a loaded question, as I say to every single guest that I have during these times, but how are you doing? I'm doing great, surprisingly enough. Yeah. I like for me personally, I love when there are things happening that I can digest and reflect on and write about. So to me like I love the overload of just information currently happening right now. Yeah, and an overload of information it is. The NBA is it does seem dead set on getting started, And so I wanted to begin with your thoughts on the bubble that quite frankly isn't actually a bubble. And you've written about this, You've written about it extensively, and I enjoyed your thoughts on it. I thought you did a really nice job of sort of just balancing the the part of, hey, this is this is unsafe with also the hypocrisy of well, we're all still going to watch and so I'm just wondering if I'm just wondering if you think it's it's fair to hold the MBA to the higher standard and lob this criticism at them when I think there's probably been like more fundamental. I don't want to say more, but there's just been more. There's so much wrong with how the you know, the United States specifically has handled all this, that can we really expect more from the MBA when we just can't get more out of really the government or you know, everyday life is just so screwed up in general. Yeah, I think what makes it more complicated is the fact that we can't really see an end in sight. So it's really hard to lob all of the criticism at the MBA because they exist in another bubble, which is the United States, and especially like, of all the locations to choose, it has to be, you know, the worst hit area in the States. Like I've read yesterday that now Florida has more cases than Europe, all of Europe combined. So it's it's just a lose lose situation. That's how I describe it, like for players, for everyone involved. You know, personally, I think like I'm trying to keep it on record because I feel like we're going to be talking about this for years to come about that time there was a global pandemic in the NBA was in Limbo, So I'm trying to put it on record. However many times that I can that I'm one hundred percent against the league coming back, that I think this is a terrible idea, and that the NBA will be dealing with the ramifications too from a historical sense, the fact that they're playing through so much stilty of political unrest, and also the fact that we don't know the ramifications of having coronavirus, like from a chronic health point point of view. So I feel like we're going to be looking back at this a lot. So there's enough criticism to go around. But it is a lose lose situation, and you know, it's kind of strange. You know, Adam Silver is trying to frame it as you know, they're trying to take a stand because sports matter, and people need this, but it's really not for us, you know. It's they have quotas to meet, they have money to make, and they don't want to deal with the ramifications of canceling the season because it's going to lead to, you know, having to rewrite the collective bargeting agreement, and they don't want to deal with all of that. So it would be awesome if they would be more transparent, But I guess they want to start framing the narrative for how this is going to be viewed from a historical point of view. But yeah, that it's a lose lose situation. Yeah. So, like I told you already, I skew entirely towards your stands, and I think one of the things I agree on most of the years, if the NBA just came out and framed it this way where it's like, look, there's a ton of money at stake, we really don't even kind of know if it's gonna work, and we're they've said they're willing to stop if something happens. I guess if you frame it that way, it's at least it's more honest than playing the sports matter card, because sports don't matter, but there's also you know, they're in essential relative to general livelihood and everything. I think you can, I think that you can. It's I actually don't find it a hard line to straddle. That you can say, yeah, the the NBA shouldn't be starting back up again, but if they do, you're you're going to watch it. We're going to cover it because that's part of our jobs, and yeah, you'll enjoy the play, But it just doesn't seem the just the risk involved right right now, and there's so much we don't understand. And even there's there needs to be plenty more done about the long term effects of having COVID nineteen in general, but just the stuff I've read about sort of the permanent lung damage that people have suffered from this, it's it's really scary. And so it doesn't feel like I'm with you where it doesn't feel like the league is coming back right now. It's just so hard to wrap my head around how how do you end up? Like, how do you view it? Because it does seem like they're going to come back, it's a going to be okay to enjoy it once it does come back. That's a dilemma. That's really a minor on a large scale of things. But they're putting just everyone in this weird predicament of like rooting for something because you're you're going to be covering the game or you'll be in join a game. That is just it's just wildly unsettling still at this point. Yeah, So when it comes to that, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm going to watch it like it's on TV and it actually airs. I Like, I know some people have like made the decision and they're not going to consume this season. They're they're gonna completely kind of boycott it. But personally, I will watch it if it goes through. I think it's going to happen, but I would not be surprised if it just implodes, like half halfway through or something. If it gets to a point where we're seeing entire teams sick because of the way it spread so easily, then I can see it happening like it couldn't even happen early in the season. Like imagine you're playing like in the first round and an entire team gets sick because they will be in locker rooms, are not going to be social distancing when they're practicing and we're you know, rehearsing as a team. So if something like that happens where an entire team wipes is wiped out, like then I can see everything kind of falling apart at that point. But I do think it's going to go through and the fallout if they were to cancel their resumption of the season would be so devastating. I feel like to the league it would be just such a pr nightmare that could also affect next season. So I feel like they've already absorbed and come to terms with all of the all of the fallout that could potentially happen. So if they acknowledge that, then I've come to terms with the fact that I'm probably going to offer. And I think in the end, the answer b it should absolutely be fair to hold the NBA to a higher standard just because they've capitalized on this reputation as a super progressive league or the most progressive sports league in the world basically, and know holes have been poked in that there was the whole Hong Kong thing at the beginning of this past season, and so if you want to view the NBA through that lens, or they want to be viewed through that lens. They should absolutely be held to this higher standard. And yeah, and I think it's sorry, I just want to put a point on what you just said, like it's and it's kind of completely unearned, you know, that reputation, it's really the work of their own players getting it on their own dime, on their own reputation. And even what we're going to see, like we're hearing about how they're going to try and use the postseason as a platform to bring awareness and it's like, yeah, but you guys just signed a contract with the federal and state police in Florida to guard at these players, and then you're going to expect them to be protesting the police state while they're playing. So it's there's just such like a cognitive dissonance there with the NBA and we're kind of seeing how flimsy their reputation as the progressive league is. It's just based on the progressiveness of their players. Yeah. Who Also one of the problem with the players seems like they want to leave the bubble too. And I think they were talking about giving access to players to the theme parks should they reopen after they're closed, and that creates these all these other different sorts of issues. And so I hope it because I agree with you that I think the NBA is going to come back. I hope it ends up working. But just what we know about how easily everything spreads, the fact that there are people going to be in and out of the bubble, potentially technically players themselves, really if they're going to theme parks even when they're closed. I've remained skeptical that we're going to end up finishing this season, and like you said, there's going to be a devastating fallout from that. Yeah, I hope it goes through. I hope it goes on without a hitch. I hope everyone remains healthy and that we get a really immersive and you know, high end viewing experience that it feels like we're not missing out on the crowds being there and everything. Like, I hope it goes through like excellently. That's what I hope for. But my brain is telling me that that is just you know, a pipe dream. Yeah, and you so this is probably good segue. You're talking about how the NBA it's built its reputation on the back of its players. True, and so he wrote a piece mentally specifically called Politicizing play at the Neon Playbook. I'd highly recommend everyone to check it out about how important it can be to send these messages through sport and how you know you had referenced with Ben Shapiro had said where sports can't be an escape during this time because their platform that can basically they're going to be able to champion change and that they if the players want to use, looking at the NBA specifically the platform they're going to have in Disney, to continue to send these messages to protests in favor of racial equality and against police brutality there there, we know they're absolutely going to And like one question to you is do you think they ultimately can assuming the season is going to happen. Do you think that they end up sending a your message by using the platform that they're going to have, or is it technically more effective if we start to see players staying out of the bubble not continuing the season for this exact reason. Again, like I think it goes back to the fact that this whole situation is just lose lose. I really can't see them effectively using their platform as a means to bring change or as a means to maybe they can bring awareness the same way people have been using doing it through the internet and through social media. Yeah, but as for using a platform at Disney, a multibillion dollar company with their contract with the police, it's it's impossible. Like that's the thing about living in the current system, Like it's the same thing when people ask you to vote to bring about change when in reality, like your options are so limited and not reflective of the wants of society. Like, like the whole thing. The reason why I was writing about it is that you can all you can. You can find yourself feeling so powerless in the system. And if for players who are playing, if they want to express themselves using whatever limited platform that they have, let them have that agency. Let them have that power. Because oftentimes when we think about agency, it's not it's not about it's always about you know, free agency. It's about within the realm of the game. But when we're talking about people who want to express themselves and ultimately, you know, entertainment, this is for its art, it's how people want to express themselves and it's how they want to communicate to people. Like we need to allow that, but its effectiveness is it's just it's not realistic. But you know, to sit out, I don't know if it's going to bring in about any meaning. Like I remember reading something just the other day from friend VanVleet who was talking about for the athletic talking about how ultimately, whether they play or not, they're in this weird spot where their decision may not be the correct one, you know what I mean, Like they're they're left making such a a huge decision that they ultimately didn't want to make. Like as players, they are people they've been trained since you know, being like toddlerhood, like they were classically trained, and this is oftentimes all they know. This world of basketball is all they know. So when they have when they're made to make this decision that they didn't sign up for, like it's it's really it's really, really, really tough at the end of the day. So I don't there is no right or wrong decision when it comes to this situation. But I am all for expression and if that's the route that they choose, and if if this is the means to the end, like I do support it. Yeah, And I think it's especially for someone like me, I would just never dare to instruct them on how to do it. And so exactly, I think it's I think you hit it right there, whereas there's really no wrong answer here. My one concern about I think if when you're looking at the exposure relative to how there's not much happening, especially with live sports right now, if you get to Disney and everything's you know, happening without issue, it does seem like that platform could be pretty big. My one, I don't know if it's a concern. I guess my question or worry or whatever it would be, is how can you politicize the sport in a way that people can ignore it? Because you know, the pirated idea, because that's what it was of, you know, the jerseys which originated, believe from the w NBA. Okay, that's cool, painting black lives matter on the court, that's fine. But what can be done where people won't be able to ignore it, or where it's a more active form of expression. And you know, I know they've talked about doing things in postgame and pregame, but people can tune out of postgame and pregame shows pretty easily, and so can they do something during actual broadcast that isn't just painting black lives matter on the court. And I would hope that they put you know, the players Association in the league, everybody puts far more creative minds than I have together to figure out how to do that, because one of the lines that really stood out from your piece too was the politicization of sports. It's supposed to make you uncomfortable. It's supposed to disorient you and defile your escapism. Art, whether it's deemed high or lowbrow, is a means of communication, and I'm just worried that the message, even if it's even if it's the right attempt, if it's an ambulable attempt, I don't want it to sort of fall flat or be easy to ignore. And so I'm hoping that they just come up with something more creative than we've seen a trickle out so far in terms of the ideas that they've come up with. Yeah, I can't. I can see if they're smart, they will they will use those halftime breaks in the middle of games instead of giving us you know, they're not going to have cheerleaders. What am I thinking like? Instead of you know, doing what they usually do. It would be interesting if they could perhaps have organizers direct short films or you know, something of the sort, like there is a way to reach the average viewer, the average American through this. But we'll see what happens. Honestly, I mean, this is what I'm excited for. And again, this is what's going to you know, historically define this year for the league and really kind of shape it's it's reputation rather than the players and their progressiveness. This is its chance to establish itself and express itself as an association, right which is huge because there's no there's not really that portrait of uniform like for any sports league where if they if they can really make the most of this time and Disney again, assuming it happens, assuming that something catastrophic doesn't transpire between now and then it does. Really think this could be an opportunity for you know, not just the players and not just the champion, change before the league's reputation as well as you point it out attention to Hardwin Knox listeners, there is no shortage of action going on at our exclusive partners. Bet online, dot ag Sports are slowly making their way back and bet online is leading the way with the best odds and lines for all UFC, NASCAR, boxing and soccer matches. And if you need even more, they have simulated NFL, NBA and UFC events all day, every day live on their website. Looking for something else other than sports, bet online has hundreds of casino games, poker tournaments and prop bets. To check out, visit bet online, dot ag and use promo code blue wire all one word for a free welcome bonus. That's one word, blue wire bet online. You're online wagering experts. This is a much lighter question that's going to get to after hitting you with You also wrote this piece that I really enjoyed called brainstorming player archetypes, and so you had talked about three of them, and so before I ask you about them, I'm just wondering what inspires you to break to like come up with more creative player archetypes, Like what was the itch to make you write this piece? Honestly, it's just a reflection of how I discuss basketball with my co hosts on the show, so how I discuss it with my friends. Like for me personally, I know this is the case actually for a lot of people who enjoy basketball, but I view it the same way I view like TV, how I view film, how I view art, like how I read books. Like this is it's really just the same category for me. It's it's all considered art for me. So when I watch basketball, I see characters. I see what the players are presenting on that stage of theirs because we don't know them personally, but the way they express themselves on the court to me is how I view them. When someone you know throws a name at me, this is the immediate kind of image or silhouette that I see in my head. So I wanted to write something that would kind of reflect how I discuss basketball in real life. So I kind of realized that a lot of people relate to it. This is how they view players in any sport as well, So that's why I wanted to write it. Yes, you had the The Employee, the Tricker, Treater, and the World Eader, and your first installment I was when I was reading The Employee one where you sort of have like the quick like snapshot breakdowns, and it's for business outside of basketball. Angel Investor just several app startups. Has a restaurant home town, and I was just like that is so specific and so spot on. It was just absolutely hysterical. And so I know you've identified your favorite within these three archetypes, but do is are these I think it was World Eater that you identify as your favorite. Is that actually your favorite? Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Is there? Oh? Yeah? Is there an installment that's not yet written where maybe another favorite archetype is coming out that you can spoil anything along those lines. I will, I will spoil another one, like the one that I wanted to fit into this one but I didn't want to, you know, give it all away. Is the villain, so people who kind of relish that role of the villain in the story that is the NBA season. But for yeah, the World Eater is definitely my favorite. It's the player that you know, screams when a dunk. They are the hero in their own tail. I I love those personalities. I love that kind of confidence. Yeah, that that's been my favorite player since I was a child. Like, that's the player that I want to watch. I love watching, you know, Jannis. I love watching even like a player like Pat Bev who's just like so passionate and like he yes, he builds these narratives to fuel him and seeing with Draymond Green, like a lot of people despise like that kind of expressive, almost angry player, but from me, like, I love that passion that they're you know, playing with Like to me, it fuels their it fuels their skill set, and it feels their how how good they are that you know, it's hard to it's hard to hate it. For me, they're also the player because I actually think they would. I've the way I've identified these players is because you listed all the players that are among my favorite to watch, like a or the ones that I most respect too. I've identified them as the players I would follow into hell and yeah, me and the Lord Kyle Lowry, Patrick Beverley Jannis, Like those are all the guys that come up when you're talking about that. So that ends up being my favorite archetype too. Uh. The so the employee, I know you have examples from Doc you tell us just to take us do the last week he tells us about the what the employee archetype entails? Yeah, they they they're I have to say they're not my favorite because it for me, like I, like I said, earlier. I like to view basketball as as art as theater. Like to me, I'm watching a performance, watching a season like literally a season of a program for me. But these players they kind of intrude on the narrative that I've established in my head because they they really treat the season. They treat it as like they're clocking in and they're clocking out, like is their job they've you know, if if they could play in complete anonymity and get paid for it and do what they love, they totally would. But I do I will say I respect their work ethic, but this player is pretty boring. They're not boring to watch, I will sing, but they're ongoing like uh, they they tend to be kind of amused thing. Like the examples I wrote were Nicola Yoki and Kawhi Leonard. We love their disposition because they're just they're so unique as players off court. We just we we kind of laugh at them rather than with them. But you know, they they are, they they are. It's it's it's kind of boring for me, honestly, I'll be honest, I get that. And I think, especially because you just stinguished that people that fall into this category like you had a list of Nicola Yokich. They don't have to be boring to watch. It could just be exactly. He's one of the most entertaining and entertaining players to view, you know, but like at the same time, I absolutely love like a Joel Embiid for the complete opposite reason. And then so there's a trick or treater in this one, and might I think there's probably had my favorite description where you said they play every night like it's a long Nike hand. And then the names you list are just hits that right on, hits the heart of that too, So you're just explain that a little bit more to less as well. Yeah, this player is I feel like their view of basketball was kind of born out of like you know, like Mike and like you know those basketball productions they have, like a very they're similar to the World Eater is. It's a very small distinction. The World Eater plays with a chip on his shoulder, you know what I mean. Like the oftentimes, like I wrote in the World Eater description, they tend to be either short basketball players or foreigners. Like there's usually something that fuels that chip on their shoulder. But the trick or Treer. It was probably very popular in school, probably very well loved to them. They come into the league and already feel as though they're superstars like that. It's a very different distinction, but the outcome is the same. They're both They're winners, you know. And I would just like to single out the business outside of basketball that you gave an example of. For the Trick or Treater was hugely popular energy drink in South Korea, huge Japanese subculture following. If you've not read this piece, please go over to the Neon Playbook dot com and read it. It was It was so fun and enjoyable, and I think the player archetypes concept is one that you can take anywhere. And I look forward to I look forward to seeing the next installment. I very much want to read about about the Villains now, yeah, working on it. I do have Are you ready to answer some Toronto Raptors questions? Though? Oh absolutely, I'm always ready for the Raptors. So I won't call this a victory lap because I get ninety nine percent of the things that I say wrong. But I was generally higher on the Raptors than the consensus heading into the season. However, I did not see a two seed coming for them. Are you at all surprised as someone who follows the team more intimately at where they are given the offseason turnover, or is there even just an element of this team that somewhat shocking to you given what kind of happened between them winning the championship last year to the start of this season. I'll say that I was totally expecting the success because I feel like they have an established system and they have several figures within the team that are the architects of that system. So if you've retained Nick Nurse and you've retained Kyle Lowry, I feel like you're set up for success, and if you just surround them with capable bodies, you will have a successful team. I did not expect like them to complete the season or to go through the season which like such swagger and dignity, like I did not, because it's a little demeaning when your finals MVP goes off to LA you know what I mean, It's hard to deny it, especially if you've had like such a storybook playoff run and then they leave. So just seeing how much confidence that they're playing with, like when the Toronto Raptors come to your arena. They're playing like the champions. And that's something that I did not expect. I thought there would be growing pains. I thought there would be some painful winds and where they you know, edge it out ugly wins but and embarrassing glasses. But there's been an absence of that this season. Like they've just carried themselves as champions. The season was such a joy to watch, like I cannot express it. It was Every Raptor's friends will tell you that it was far more stress free and enjoyable than the last season. The playoffs are another story, but the regular season was just just thoroughly enjoyable. They are every year. There are like two teams that I've become maybe two or three teams I've become attached to if someone was really just not attached to any team. And this year it was okay See in Toronto, just because I actually didn't think Toronto. I thought it was more likely that okay See sort of busted it up during the middle of the year. I never thought Toronto would bust it up. I just didn't, you know, I thought, if anything, this would be a you know, like at a boy title defense where it's oh, cool, you got the five seed or the four seed, not where you know I've talked with and I'll ask you about the sleeper. But you know there's a path to them coming out of the Eastern Conference, Like there's exactly that's the shocking part that I will say that that too shocked me. Like I knew that they would be competitive. I knew that they would be a high like up there, but in the past, like Raptors teams have been number one in the East and flamed out in the playoffs. But when I view this team and I view how the fundamentally solid they are at every position and how you know, defensively there's not a leak on the entire roster, I'm like actually thinking like, this is a team that could really give a fight to end up in the finals, and they've sort of like taken on where it used to just be this reflective. Oh, the Spurs have the best culture and you can count on them to be good or you can count on them to groom players and develop players on their roster. I think that team is officially now the Raptors just looking at you know, Terrence Davis Chris Bouche, like even Matt Thomas, like Ronnie Hollis, Jefferson having some success in the middle of the season after sort of flaming out in Brooklyn. They've I think they've officially become that team. Yeah, yeah, they've It's something that they've been you know, architecting for the past half decade, you know, creating a kind of self sufficient system where they mind for accessible talent, talent that's not you know, that they don't have to tank for, and they continue winning and then they bring in these players who are kind of diamonds in the row into a winning culture, which is so underrated, Like if you can, we've seen talented players flame out in a losing culture. But when you bring these unpolished gems into a winning culture and see how it kind of polishes them and kind of teaches them the excellence. Like they've kind of found this winning formula that can just it's cyclical, but you can keep going for years now. So looking at Pascal Siakam specifically, he's he seems like at once he's achieved the inarguable stardom where maybe people if they they shouldn't have remained skeptable, particularly after watching him in the playoffs last year. But if it was like, oh, well you had Kwai and Kyle Lowry is a safety net, that's like he just doesn't there's no excuses now for him. But there's also like if you mentioned him and you know, is he better than Jayson Tatum, some people get offended, and I think it's it's an actual conversation wherever you land on it to me, And I think part of that probably to do that his efficiency has sort of dipped over the regular season. Is there anything you're seeing there that concerns you. Does it have to do with, you know, his groin injury? Is it just him getting used to his new terms by by which he operates and the shot difficulty that comes with it. Are people just underrating him in general at this point by thinking that, you know, what he's been doing on offensive actually is super valuable And when you have such a I don't want to say a change in role, but where there's this uptick in usage, you can't really get caught up in in the efficiency over the course of an entire season. Yeah. No, I think all the points you brought up are valid into kind of how his season has panned out. I think the comparison between both players is valid. Right. There's their stats are like shockingly similar and identical in a lot of rows. But it's interesting because there's such opposites in terms of their story into basketball. Like you have Jason Tatum, who's kind of like your quintessential high achieving prospect where he's been kind of scouted since he was in high school and college, and he had the hype around him going into the league. And yeah, he had some struggles in his first years where his efficiency was kind of a running joke and his shot selection, you know, being kind of like an off Grand Kobe and stuff in the beginning. But and then you have Pascal Siakam, who's someone who did not play the sport at any organized level until he was sixteen years old, when Jason Tatum was already on national radars, you know what I mean. And then you have them both, and then you have them both here in the NBA leading their teams to success in their conferences. For Pascal, he's so interesting because a few people kind of point out, like the intelligence it takes to grasp basketball at such a high level start so late, and his growth as a if you look at his growth as a graph, like the spike that he's experienced in his shot select, like his shot field, gold attempts, his just everything. If you look at it, it's unprecedented in the NBA, Like there has been no player that has had a year to year spike and increase in efficiency, Like there was a point where he was the worst three point shooter in the MBA just two years ago, like that is not made up. And then he's suddenly shooting at a high volume at slightly above league average, Like that's that's so unprecedented here. So there are a multitude of reasons why I think Pascal's like, uh, his efficiency kind of dipped towards the middle, and you know, latter third of the season. I think that as fans have noticed Nick Nurse, he's he's spoken about this a lot where he likes making his players uncomfortable as a means of development. So for Pascal in particular, even he is he's an excellent he's an excellent like straight line driver, like he can get straight to the rim. That was, He's an excellent cutter. He can he has a several post up moves that that are very high efficiency but we're seeing him being forced to dribble, handle the ball into crowds, collapse defenses, and then pass out to shooters, so that they're trying to create they're trying to build him as a system. So they want him to be the center of the offense for the Raptors and have the players kind of build around him. And you know, in order to develop that that style of player, it's going to take growing pain. It's going to be ugly at times, especially for someone who may not have that foundational basketball kind of experience, like it's not quite muscle memory for him yet. And then you have Jason Tatum, who is being you know what, runs like these pick and roll sequences that we know and that are really fun to watch from the Boston Salt Ticks, and he's someone who struggles with double teams, with triple teams, and we're gonna see Brad Stevens put him through that eventually, that next stage of his development, forcing him to you know, bring up that assist rate and to collapse defenses and to look for his teammates. But yeah, so it's interesting because for the Raptors in the last two minutes of the game, Pascal Siakam starts playing like Jason Tata instead of Kemba and Jason, you'll see Pascal and Kyle Lowry and the Raptors right now have like the best crunch time offense in the NBA. Like it is a significant difference between the one and two. So it's interesting, Like I'm sure if Nick Nurse let him do that two minute of that two minute offense throughout the entirety of the game, we'd have a different Pascal, we'd have a different stat sheet for him. But I personally like seeing that that difficulty level being altered about the season, and I'm sure the style of play we're going to see from him is going to be different in the playoffs. Yeah, And I'm like just a big proponent of offensive diversification and so you're looking at I think what's probably most encouraging about this season is you've seen his usage skyrocket. You just outlined basically all the reasons why, and yeah, this turnover rate is actually lower, and even if it was a little bit higher, be fine, but it's still not through the roof regardless of how you look at it. And something that probably one of the best stats that illustrates his change is this is someone who is taking point one off the dribble three's per game last year, and he's now up to two point five per game. Like, his role has just changed so significantly, and hopefully he'll probably get more com police he does it. And I would love to fast forward three years down the line just to see where him and Tatum are at. I'd probably contain him right now, but this is this is like an actual discussion worth having. Yeah, I like Tatum's age is definitely a factor that we have to acknowledge. He's not even on the cusp of his prime yet and he's already so excellent. But what's interesting about Pascal is that I can see them trying to develop him as a small forward. I think that's the future for him. I think that Nick Nurse wants him to be kind of a jack of all trades in the offense, and that's going to be an ugly process, but it gives the Raptors a lot of leeway in the future when they're building around him. So it gives him that flexibility that kind of allows them to choose multiple futures for the team, Like if they had one a dude who had one skill set, it would be much tougher to build around him. So Kyle Lowry, like everything he does is on the court is just known at this point, Okay, are you able to contextualize at all how important he is to what the Raptors are doing? Because I still feel like there's this disconnect between what he how important he is to the Raptors, and then how he's really viewed outside of the Toronto fan base. And yeah, Dare mentioned his name in the top twenty top twenty five player conversation, It's met with a ton of pushback, and look, I'm not even trying to Raptors shill here, Like Kyle Lowry is just so ridiculously good. And so I'm wondering if coming from you, can you at all just contextualize how important Lowry is to the Raptors. It's it's really hard to contextualize it because Kyle Lowry is basically the current Raptor system, Like he is one of the guys that forged it. So you know, coming to the team what seven years ago, going through those growing pains and then kind of establishing the current culture for the team, Like it's really hard to kind of put in toowards his importance to the system. He's really the mastermind behind and not from a just an offensive point of view, because we know that he runs the Raptors offense. He has the you know, he's averaging what eight assists per game right now, but he runs their defense too. He's the one quarterbacking the defense. He's the one organizing players and telling them more to be and he's the one who has mentored what I think three starters on the team right now, Fred Vanvlee, Pascal siakam O, Giana Noby, all mentored by Kyle Lowry so and not including that's not even including Norman Powell, who who has been having an amazing season right now. So it's really hard to stress how important he is to the Raptors right now. Nick Nurse is like, literally, watch any interview of Nick Nurse, He's going to spend time talking about how important Kyle Lowry is and giving his giving him his flowers at any moment that he can. But yeah, he's he's hugely important to the Raptors. Also an NBA player, I've legitimately like to hang out with, Like I think people try and they're gonna sensationalize NBA player personalities, Like I'm not sure if i'd want to hang out with Lebron James. I want to hang out with he seems like you actually want to hang out with. Yeah, He's like he's someone who could fit into multiple player archetypes. He's also kind of an employee, like he's no frills, He's just it's like he's such a normal guy who treats like the team as kind of like a brotherhood, Like he's that glue for the team. And it's like it's so hard to express how important he is for that and how important it is that he's kind of grooming Fred to take over that role for him. You mentioned O Gananobi and might be and is definitely among the best on ball defenders in the NBA right now, and I think he's mostly been considered someone who will be one of those three D players. What I've kind of been most intrigued by though this season, is that he's just a little bit more comfortable or a lot more comfortable attacking closeouts. More of his shots are coming inside three feet than ever. The averaging career high I think it was when I last check, it's like three point five drives per game or something like that. Having if you left him alone right now and he just grew on this current groundwork that he's laid, that's still a really good player. Do you see any more like bandwidth for him to improve on offense? Where maybe is this someone who's hitting off the dribble jump jumpers. Eventually, do they try and maybe get him to play make a little bit more for others or do we think that this is maybe he'll be a much better version of someone who attacks closeouts, hits threas, and defends his ass off. Do you think that this might just be this is the groundwork for what he's going to be in the NBA long term. I see flashes of a potential like very very high end, borderline all star analogy. Yeah, he's already starting to attack closeouts. One thing that fans always point out about his play is that he's really good with passing in the paint. So like if he's playing the four, he's really good at getting the ball to the five. He's really good at kind of facilitating in that closed area. And also it's important to remember coming out of college he was a non shooter. He was just really known for his defense and athleticism, and he was described as a three and D guy without the three you know what I mean, right, So the fact that they've polished him into such a like, such a technically sound three and D guy, Like, to me, he's like the When I think three and D in the NBA, I think very few players like I think Robert Covington, I think of o Giana Noby, like that kind of guy who can shut down the opposing team's best player and also give you thirty eight percent, you know what I mean. So for me, his ceiling is I don't see that handle getting better. Yeah, his handle is just one thing that I don't know that can improve, Like his coordination with that is does not seem natural for him. But I can see him as a guy that does can develop in between game Like I can see him developing like kind of a mid range jumper, and I can see him developing a couple of post moves that he can kind of go and grab out of the pocket. But yeah, I projected to be like a borderline also just a very high end role player and hopefully the Raptors can retain that because he's just in this league where we're seeing, like there are just so many any dominant young small furs that I can see kind of just taking over for the next you know, decade and a half right now. And the NBA, like you have your Zion, you have Luca don Check, you have Jason Tatum, you have Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, like so many dominant small force to have that player that can just kind of wipe them out of the game at which ogion A Nobi does. Like if you look at his numbers and his defense against imposing small force, you'll notice one thing, and that's they barely attempt shots. And the reason why is because they have this six eight, you know, giant kid blocking their way. I'm interested to see whether the Raptors end up signing him to an extension or waiting until restarch you free agency, because we know they, like many other teams, they want to do they want to play the twenty twenty one free agency game. But if you can get him for you know, a discount, because maybe he's concerned about the injuries he's had, I wouldn't want to let him get into restricted free agency. The hot commodity in this era of basketball, like someone would throw would just a ridiculous offer sheet at him if he gets there. So I'm very interested to see how they handle that. I do have a big picture questions for you about the Raptors, obviously, but the first thing I wanted to ask is, if you're putting your brutally honest tap on, are the Raptors the biggest threats to the Bucks in the Eastern Conference out of all the teams in the Eastern Conference? Absolutely, like I whether the Raptors get out of this there's the second round matchup is most likely going to be Raptors Celtics, whether the Raptors come out of that series or not. Like I think that they are the best option for dealing with the Milwaukee Bucks. They have the best defensive bodies to throw at. Jana's just having Marcosol, having o Giana Nobi, having Ascal Siakam kyl Arry, like their their sheet of defenders that can go toe to toe and architect that wall that can block off the paint like they did last season. They can literally replicate it. Whether they can replicate that offense at the end of the day, their defense is even better than last season. And one thing the Raptors has shown is that your if your offense is not excellent, you can bring the other team down to your level and make it again of really really old school like below one hundred points basketball. So in my opinion, they are the best bet. I feel like if I feel like the six Ers offense is not passable enough, and the same for the Miami Heats defense, I think that the Boston celt takes probably possessed like the next biggest threat, but I feel like Kenba is just too exploitable on that end, and someone like bledso can exploit that. You know, he needs to have a high end defensive point guard guarding someone like Bledsoe. So it's it's that I do think that they are the best bet. I personally don't think that they can be the Bucks. Like I. We did playoff projections on the Dishes and Dimes podcasts recently, and I was the only one who said, I think that the Bucks have it this year. I'm coming out of the East, but I do think I would not be shocked if the Raptors came out of it and it's going to six or seven games. In my opinion, yeah, that's I would probably default like you did to the Bucks coming out, but that the way we've seen Eric Bletsoe kind of creator on offense the past two posts, ends they do. Look if if Donte DiVincenzo helps with an extra lay of shock creation, or if Chris Middleton just plays out of his mind, maybe I think I would pick the Celtics or the Raptors as well. And so I'm hoping we that that's one of the conference finals matchups we get really quickly, are you at all since you mentioned Mark Gasol, is there like any the way that there's concerned about Yoki losing all this weight? Is there a concern about him in the same vein, I think that Marcosol's offensive, sorry, defensive strength comes from the fact that he's not afraid to absorb contact, like he's fine. He's kind of like kyl Arry in that sense. I always say that he's like the the center version of kyl Arry, and Kylari's like the point guard version of Marc Gasol. But he in a sense that he's not afraid of contacting, not afraid of kind of embracing and just kind of absorbing that hit. And also he's extremely smart with his feet placement, like his He's not the quickest guy, but he knows where you're gonna be. He's that intelligent when it comes to defense. And we saw it like just last finals, like how he was coming up towards Steph Curry of all people, like people were projecting that Marcosolt would be played off the floor, but no, it was a complete opposite. They needed him. Yeah, Marcsot switching on to Wings with his quicker feet. Someone said like, now he's gonna be He's gonna be defending Wings now. And I think also, which proves that I thought way too much about this, is that with Yokis, one of the main concerns might be like he is like finesse and style in the post, but he's also like force, And now Marcosol just doesn't. He's not posting up nearly as much as he was he was. Oh no, he's taking that that like like it's it's it's really frustrating to watch it because you see how huge he is and you could see that he could just body guys. But Marcosolt was struggling to post up Tobias Harris during the Sixers series last year. He's someone who would much prefer his turnaround jumper versus you know, kind of just beating a guy down. Yeah, and so look if if he's not, if that's not going to be like a crutch of the Raptors offense, you know, particularly when Kyle Awry and or Pascal scams off the floor, I don't think you need to work. I personally wouldn't worry. Then I think this ends up. It's more likely to help him a great deal than it is in nicol yok, which is yeah. Yeah. So the next thing I wanted to ask you is more big picture, so we know that this team's well for me. This team's long term outlook is probably the most fascinating in the league right now because they're one of the squads that view themselves as a honest, attend to coupo contender. But they also have all these key free agents hitting the open market this year, and so I want to throw out one scenario to you is scenariot one would be honest, doesn't sign the Supermax with the Milwaukee Bucks this offseason. How do you want to see Toronto? Then, carrying out it's it's off season, I will say as a as a a wart, like as a I will preface the by saying that I do think that the Milwaukee Bucks have the best chance at retaining him by a huge margin, Like I think that his chance of resigning is probably like seventy seventy five percent. But I will say that just from a smart point of view, like for his future in the NBA, it just makes the most sense to hold off on signing the Supermax. And I don't think it's an indicator that he's going to be leaving the team. I mean right, no, per se, because they've done such a great job at not only not only will he have that attachment to it being the first, you know, American city that he settled in, you know, that's under liable for someone who, you know, for a foreign player, but also it's a team that kind of just molded him into the MVP that he is today. And I'm sure he's used it as such too. But but I will say that outside of the Mulkiwaukee Bucks, I think that the Raptors have, you know, the best chance to signing him because not only do they present like a an all start at his age, they also have, you know, that flexibility to ensure that they can build around him exactly as he needs it, you know what I mean. And not only that, but it's just the ability to mind for talent. Like I said earlier, they have this way of seeing something players that may not exhibit something like to the naked eye, to your average scout, but they see it and they develop it in a winning system. So I do think that they have the best chance. But I also I see him as resigning most likely. But yeah, so the Raptors, like next the twenty twenty one season is going to be super fascinating. The team could look a lot different. I think the only piece that's guaranteed is Pascal Siaka, Right, is how do you tackle the Fred van Fleet situation this summer? Then if like let's say, if you honest is still on the table because he inside of Supermax. Yeah, the Knicks are probably showing up at his door at six o one pm with I would think too much money, But absolutely, how do you how do you tackle? Like? Is this do you view if jan is still in play? Do you think that Fred van Fleet is on the Raptors next season? There's like an ongoing joke here for fans in Canada because Fred VanVleet is someone who's about the bag, like he's always on like Canadian commercials and stuff, like he's always trying to get I see him on Canadian tire commercials, like he's always trying to get that coin. Like. So we have this fear that the biggest offer is going to just completely render him unavailable for us. But I think it's important to retain fred Vanvlee because it's really hard to to mold and groom a point guard that is just so knowledgeable of your system and grew up in it like that. That's so difficult in this league unless you're a guy like Chris Paul who can just go on any team and just take over. If you're not that kind of guy, like you need to develop a kid in your system who understand as everything, who has a bond with the players and can be that brain on the core, that extension of the coach. So retaining fred Evnley is super important. I think that if they don't insult him with the offer, he will take it because he knows that, you know, he's ensured winning here, like the Knicks cannot ensure that. No, no, they cannot, you know, I they can't ensure that they are a well run system that they can guarantee him competitiveness and a chance at least. I think that's will all players want at the end of the day. They want a chance to be competitive at the highest level. They want a long playoff one. They don't want you to guarantee a ring most of the time, like unless you're Kevin Duran. But if you can guarantee a chance for them to prove themselves like, they will take it. So I think Fred gets that In Canada. I'm probably a little bit more pessimistic on him coming back if the honest is still on the table again, just because I think that too, the Knicks could get that stupid with the like stupid money and I'm pro players just going after the bag. I love that Trevor Riza has just decided hill sign was who's ever offering the most money and then figure out how to get to a better team later on that year. Yeah, I agree, like if if like for me, I'm not as attached to Fred as other Raptors fans. I do think that his he's he's not really like a pure point guard in the set. He's not if you watch them play, He's not a Kyle Larry. He's more of if there was a spectrum with Kyle Lowry and a Kyrie at the other end, like that point guard that plays like a classic point guard versus the one that plays like a two guard. Fred would lead more towards the Kyrie side of the spectrum, Like he's he's a very kind of a he's a shoot first point guard, kind of in the in the ilk of a of a two guard. So I wouldn't be opposed to him leaving and instead focusing on retaining uh Norman Powell because he does bring size. He brings He's a three level score, like, I think that kind of talent to have around Jannis would be more adequate. But yeah, if if, if Jannis is still on the table by next year, I think it does color whether they do retain Fred or not. In a vacuum, I guess without the honest factor with it, who's more of a flight risk? Mark Gasol or Sergey Bacca? How so just in terms of retaining what you either want? Yeah, who's more likely to leave this summer? I see a flight risk? Literally a flight risk? No sorry, no, no, no, I was like, in what count tern? But anyways, no, I see what you mean. I this is a tough one because it's it's very The opinion is very split. Personally, I'm in the camp of retaining Mark Gasol into into retirement. I think that his skill set will translate into age like very well. He's someone who does not focus on speed or anything, but he focuses more on strength than his brain. I don't I don't see him losing his defensive ability or his his passing ability with age. Uh. The thing is with Sergey Bacca, he's just he's he needs to take shots like right. Like. The thing with Mark is that he will give you six points, but he will somehow be the reason why you want Whereas Sergeybaka needs his like twelve attempts per game. He needs to have Kyle Lowry running that pick and roll with him. He cannot operate otherwise. And his defense this is just average to me. He's a great, excellent shotblocker, but he's actually's somehow slower than Marcus All. I don't understand how, but he is a little bit. So I can see a team out there really paying Mark very well, I mean surge very well, Whereas I think that I think Mark will end up being the more affordable sensible option for the Raptors, and also that reduction and shot attempts from that position will give a lot of room for someone like Og to develop more and someone like Norman Powell to take that leap into being a twenty point per dame score, which I think is the next step for Norm. I think he's close to seventeen points per game right now, So I think that I think there are a lot of trickle down down benefits for the Raptors keeping Mark rather than Surge, who I love, Like the Surge is like so large Toronto, it seems like too he not only does he love Toronto, he's super accessible, like you'll see him around the city and stuff, and also like he's always producing content for the fans, Like he's very accessible as a player, which people love. So he's very adored. So it'll suck if he left. But Mark is just I think the sensible option. So I note, I really hope that he for the content that he wears scarves in Florida and figures out how to get it done. Ye in that heat. Yeah, So how so let's say Yannis is then off the table because he signs a Supermax, which I think is and actually one of the things I wanted to say, I don't I feel bad for markets like Milwaukee if I see like the lakers of the Warriors, like fans photoshopping Yannis in their jersey I've taken. I don't know if it's like a perverse pleasure out of kind of seeing these two scorned markets where it's Toronto is now sort of flexing because they want a title. I think they're staking their claim to Jannis. I've enjoyed kind of just seeing the back and forth there. So I'm just gonna, oh, yeah, I pride myself in like being one of the early proponents of this. We're in a different position and we're not We're not losing a player right now. We're we're like, we have one in our scopes that we like for the future. I feel terrible for Milwaukee ban because I remember how horrible it was seeing those pictures of Kawai and his opposing in other jerseys, And I can't imagine for a player they see literally raised by their system as a kid becoming an MVP caliber player, it must suck like extra bad. But you know it's not my problem. Okay, So let's say Yanna signs the Supermax, which, as you already outline, that's that's super possible, if not probable. Yeah, how do you want to see the Raptors proceed from there? Because they still have those free agents. Lowry's getting older as a year left on his deal. You found the foundational superstar. But do you do you go into a more gradual rebuild or do you kind of focus on keeping this together with maybe amplifying it a little bit or you're trying to straddle to timelines at once. So I'm I'm sure to see how you actually because I actually feel like their future gets really complicated if not just Yiannis doesn't sign that, but if he's off the table this summer. Yeah, the thing is, I think about this a lot. I think that I think that Massigeria has learned and seen just from evidence around the league that tanking isn't always the way to go. Sometimes it's best to just do a gradual rebuild and remain competitive. I think that's the future of the Actors. If Yiannis is off the table, whether it's twenty twenty one or if it's this fall now, I think that they should continue. I think that they should retain Kyle Lowry and Marcosol obviously keep Pascal Siakam and somehow keep Norm and Fred but not not Fred, sorry, keep Norm and Og and then continuing to develop Terrence Davis and you know the other rookies that they would changed. So I see a gradual rebuild in their future where they remain competitive. The thing about it is that Pascal is kind of the He's kind of the the center of all this in the sense that it depends on whether he is a floor razor or a ceiling razor, which we're going to see in the future, and either Spine a floor razor, someone that I think they're going to need to pair with an MVP caliber talent. So whether it's developing their young talent and then trading for an available player in the future if they get lucky, or if he's a ceiling razor where they can really they have something really special, where if they continue, if they continue to develop the guy and surround him with capable role players and maybe another all star, not even a superstar, they can bold him to be that player that can take them to the finals. So for me personally, just based on his trajectory and how unprecedented his growth has been I think that Pascal can be a ceiling razor sort of player. And also I think players like him starting off as a role player is so useful. We saw it Kawhi Leonard. It just makes them so kind of in tune to the system where they're very fine with whatever role they're given, and I see that in him. So I think the future would be continuing to grow as they are and build around Pascal, so surrounding him, who is surrounding him with pass them with capable passers. Sorry, I think that's I think that's the outlook for them. So it gets it definitely gets very interesting. It can be a completely different iteration of the team. But for me, I'd prefer they keep Mark and Kyle for that veteran leadership and to have them as the only two old guys on the roster and then continue just going up skewing younger because I don't think they need any more guys in their mid to late twenties. I think we're gonna have a overload of that student and we're gonna we don't want to end up like like with the Milwaukee Bucks. Will makes their future so tough. Is that a lot of their players are older. I think they're the oldest team in the NBA because they surrounded so Yann with so many players that were like around the same age in their late twenties and now they're moving into their thirties and early thirties. So I think they had they should skew younger the Raptors. And look, if we assume that Pascal Siakam is the ceiling razor, and it's probably fair to make that assumption now, I think the probably the most interesting swing piece on the team then becomes what is o Ganna Nobi? Because you mentioned if he is that fringe all star player that helps you out a great deal, because then it doesn't necessarily make him your number two on offense, but if you have a second best player type on a champion like championship team material that goes a long way as well. I know you have to get out of here. Yasmin. I want to thank you for coming on. I really enjoyed this discussion. If you guys are not following her on Twitter, you can followers I mentioned at the top at Carmelo Drama c A R M E l O H D R A M A. Thank you, so much again for coming on, Yasmin. I'm sure I'll be pestering you again in the future. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. Sugar Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four part series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime