1 00:00:15,679 --> 00:00:20,280 Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them. 2 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,359 My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by 3 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,839 Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're 4 00:00:27,839 --> 00:00:32,039 all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago. 5 00:00:32,359 --> 00:00:36,479 Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,600 purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please 7 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,320 remember that even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist. 8 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,719 If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local mental health 9 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:51,679 provider. This is a highly different episode than we typically do, but very 10 00:00:51,719 --> 00:00:57,159 exciting. As you guys know, we talk about mental health as it's displayed 11 00:00:57,159 --> 00:01:02,240 in movies of all different kinds, and so if you wouldn't mind having you 12 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,640 all introduce yourself to our audience and kind of talk a little bit about this 13 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:14,159 movie, The Retaliators. Go ahead, boys, I'm Darren Gear, one 14 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,599 of the Gear Brothers, a writer of The Retaliators. I am Jeff Alan 15 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:27,959 Gear, brother of Darren co write or of The Retaliators, and my name 16 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,280 is Michael Lombardi and I'm an actor. I produced and directed some on The 17 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:40,439 Retaliators, and I'd like to think of myself as a third brother in this 18 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,439 family. Sometimes you care a lot about it, guys, and it was 19 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,519 I'm excited to talk about the project because it's a special one, and I 20 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:57,079 think the tone of your podcast will allow these guys to tell a story and 21 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:01,400 an inspiration that I think makes us something a little different than perhaps other horror 22 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,799 thriller films. So thank you very much for having us. Oh sure, 23 00:02:05,959 --> 00:02:08,960 thank you for thinking of us. I know we like to take sort of 24 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:15,039 like we like to take topics and movies that people don't think of that intensely, 25 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,639 and then we just go in and we just pull it apart in a 26 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,560 way that I think is helpful and people seem to enjoy. So I appreciate 27 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,159 you being here and being so game for my questions. So first off, 28 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,280 just introducing the movie for anyone listening asn't seen it. The Retaliators, I 29 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,080 hope I'm going to try to summarize if you guys can add to anything I'm 30 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:38,439 missing. Is about a family who loses their oldest daughter, their teenage daughter, 31 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:45,879 to violence, and so in order to try to get justice for that 32 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,759 situation, the father played by you Michael gets involved with a detective who has 33 00:02:50,759 --> 00:02:57,719 a very specific brand of justice and how he deals with retaliating I guess when 34 00:02:57,719 --> 00:03:00,159 things happen in their life. So, is there anything I missed about the 35 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:04,599 summary that you think will be helpful for the audience to know to give some 36 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,199 context to what we're going to talk about. Yeah, well, I'll let 37 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:08,879 the writers. I know that they'll have a couple of things, But I 38 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,080 just want to add to that that it certainly is a family. But I 39 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,599 think what's important is that my characters a single dad. So I think I 40 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,840 think that it plays into the story a lot in the relationship with his daughters 41 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:25,520 and sort of is part of the catalyst that drives him on this tale of 42 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:29,560 revenge. And I think anyone who has a son, or a daughter, 43 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,080 or or or or a niece or a nephew, you know, he's a 44 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:38,319 certain a shoe in to the understanding those feelings. But I certainly do feel 45 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,800 like, at least for my preparation for the role, there was a sort 46 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:46,599 of a heightened sense to what happens because of being a single dad. But 47 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,919 that that you gave it, You did a beautiful description to add that, 48 00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:55,159 you know, and see if these guys had anything to sort of put people, 49 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,240 uh, you know, put people's ears and minds in the right place 50 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,120 when we hit this the rest of this cast. So yeah, no, 51 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:10,080 I think the the other thing to note about the film that uh, certainly 52 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,040 we found interesting in writing it, and again having to do with Michael's character, 53 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,399 is Michael is a single father in the film, but he's also a 54 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:29,639 pastor. And we what we thought would be would make for good drama would 55 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:38,759 be creating a character who is sort of like a sort of throwback to a 56 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:44,519 sort of classic quote unquote good guy kind of character, like a Jimmy Steward 57 00:04:44,519 --> 00:04:51,920 in a Frank Capra movie, and really make him the real deal and earnest 58 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,000 guy, a very well meaning guy, not perfect, not you know, 59 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:02,000 no one is, but certainly you know, just a good person and someone 60 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:13,160 who is a true, true blue Pacifist. Have to then go through them 61 00:05:14,639 --> 00:05:28,439 the the somebody tempting him into crossing some very very questionable moral lines in the 62 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,079 height of being sort of at the height of trauma, and we sort of 63 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,600 thought it would make for again sort of really to kind of amp up the 64 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,800 drama. So when the movie from there, without giving away where it goes 65 00:05:41,879 --> 00:05:47,959 once he's brought to that line, but certainly some chaos ensues in a big 66 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:56,120 way. And so seeing I think the journey of seeing a character like Michael's 67 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,360 go through that makes for just hopefully very entertained a ride. That's the that's 68 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,920 uh, that was that was the intention, how the psychology or mental health 69 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:11,000 considered when writing a story that has grief and trauma. Like I noticed too 70 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,319 that there's the scenes in the movie where they're in even a grief counseling group, 71 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,199 and so it made me curious when writing something like that, where I 72 00:06:18,199 --> 00:06:24,839 guess what informs that? Um, yeah, you know, in this case, 73 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:31,040 well in any case. Um, when it comes to writing, UM, 74 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,639 you know, Jeff and I pride ourselves on doing a lot of deep 75 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:41,720 research. A lot of things are left up to the imagination in writing, 76 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:47,240 but I also think there's a responsibility to really dig in and and be resourceful. 77 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:57,000 Um. In the case of the Retaliators, because the Heartbeat Wash was 78 00:06:57,079 --> 00:07:03,560 based on a real life trauma in our family, we didn't you know, 79 00:07:03,639 --> 00:07:10,920 we didn't have to do any research there, right, We were the nugget 80 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:15,000 of the first idea. When the idea first popped up, which was what 81 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,720 if there was this? It showed up in the form of what if there 82 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:27,480 was a service for family members of crime victims that provided them one minute alone 83 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:32,439 as sort of a healing. It wasn't even really thought of as that original 84 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,240 thought wasn't even it was just as sort of a healing. But then the 85 00:07:36,279 --> 00:07:43,800 title the Retaliators kind of came along with that thought. That happened right as 86 00:07:43,879 --> 00:07:50,199 we were going through my sister was our sister was going through the trial phase 87 00:07:50,639 --> 00:07:59,480 of her whole ordeal, which was very grueling and very long and very difficult 88 00:07:59,519 --> 00:08:03,800 to go through. So there's just you know, it doesn't take too much 89 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:09,759 of a leap of imagination to figure that, you know, psychologically, that 90 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,199 sort of idea would kind of pop out. Um. So as far as 91 00:08:13,959 --> 00:08:18,600 you know, uh, you know, now we weren't grieving a death, 92 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:26,720 um, but we were grieving a a trauma, and so we sort of 93 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:33,519 kind of use the emotions we were feeling and and you know, really one 94 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:39,200 would feel when someone close to you goes through something as heinous as what our 95 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,399 sister went through. Uh, we were able to sort of tap into that, 96 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:48,120 uh for you know, dealing with with sort of Bishop and really I'm 97 00:08:48,159 --> 00:08:54,120 also a father and uh and it was sort of it was you know, 98 00:08:54,159 --> 00:09:01,480 it really was in having a conversation with my dad and hearing his experience of 99 00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:07,399 being in the courtroom that made me connect to me being a father. And 100 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:13,399 then then now imagining this is one of my children. I'd already been sort 101 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:20,000 of caught up in the you know, the frustration and pain with it being 102 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,679 my sister. Then trying to then put myself into my dad's shoes. That's 103 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,759 what really brought me to, you know, that place. And that's really 104 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,600 kind of where Bishop was born from that the character Michael's character in a movie. 105 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,960 So a lot of the research was kind of more homegrown, like from 106 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,799 like internal exercises. Almost. Yeah, Okay, that's really interesting to know. 107 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:50,039 It makes me curious. But the question I'll have later but maybe you 108 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:54,000 can ruminate on it is sort of how do you practice self care when engaging 109 00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:58,159 in a piece of work, a piece of artwork that is not just like 110 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:03,720 psychologicalically heavy in a general sense. But then it seems like what you from 111 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:11,639 what you just shared also has a close personal tie to your own story. 112 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,120 Yeah, you know, Jeff, you go ahead, Jeff, I was 113 00:10:15,159 --> 00:10:16,799 baffling. Go ahead, yeah, yeah, No, no worries, no, 114 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:20,200 no, no. I think it's a great question. Um. It 115 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,879 really got my mind going on it because I never really thought of it that 116 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:31,279 way. Um, because well, I think one thing we did that didn't, 117 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,720 you know, make it too difficult for us to be that close to 118 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:39,679 it was that, you know, the story that we're telling is not exactly 119 00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:43,960 the story of our of our sister. Um, so it kind of put 120 00:10:45,039 --> 00:10:48,480 us with some distance to to that. You know, I think if we 121 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,559 had been writing, you know, the true story of what happened to our 122 00:10:52,639 --> 00:10:58,279 sister, Yeah, there'd be a lot of you know, um, concerns 123 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,559 about self care going through that kind of process in a way that that felt 124 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:07,039 very daunting to me and to me and Darren. And also we don't we 125 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,120 didn't feel like the kind of we were in a position to exactly tell that 126 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:18,159 that story. It felt like the story we wanted to tell had more to 127 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:24,799 do with the family members of the victims, but we didn't want to sort 128 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:28,000 of tell her story through our point of view. Instead, we thought, 129 00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:33,799 well, let's tell the point of view of the victims of family members, 130 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:39,320 but a different kind of tragic event. And so I think, you know, 131 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:43,879 it didn't feel very challenging in writing it, even though the heartbeat the 132 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:46,639 story was that very tragic event. And I think that was just due to 133 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,720 the fact that we didn't we didn't do exactly her story, but still in 134 00:11:52,759 --> 00:11:56,840 a way we're able to tie it in. And that's where I feel like 135 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:00,600 that was the beautiful thing about it, was that we were still able to 136 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:07,120 honor our sister um and get our story out there while still making a piece 137 00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:11,039 of you know, entertainment. Yeah. What these guys always said to me. 138 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,960 Look, they want to make a fun, entertaining film. Um, 139 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:22,639 they're huge fans of the genre. They understand the genre. But it was 140 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:28,840 an actually a healing uh therapy this is and again they're here so they can 141 00:12:28,879 --> 00:12:35,919 talk, right, And they said to me, you know, because I 142 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,960 fell in love with the script the moment I read it. It jumped off 143 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,240 the page, the characters and the thing is, you write what you know, 144 00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:46,600 and I knew it was good writing. And then to find out the 145 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,960 inspiration of the story, which I think we should get to and uh, 146 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,240 and we will because we've talked touched upon it a little bit. But Darren 147 00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:58,600 said to me, you know, uh, we were going through all this, 148 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,600 and I said to my brother, you know what if there were a 149 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:09,720 service where you could have a minute alone with the person who harmed your loved 150 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,200 one? And they started to go off on this thought. And the bottom 151 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:20,120 line is that's the foundation and the number one provocative question of the entire film. 152 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,679 If you had a minute alone with the person who heard or killed your 153 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,519 loved one, would you take it? So this was a now, guys, 154 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,840 please take over. But it was sort of a healing process for you 155 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,519 writing a fun, entertaining story and sired by your sister's tragedy, which is 156 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,679 why it's so real and it makes you think a lot when you're watching it, 157 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,720 even though it's fun. It's a popcorn movie. You definitely think. 158 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:46,759 But go ahead, boys, Yeah, no, I it's a good segue 159 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:54,399 to what I was gonna say, Michael, which was writing itself is self 160 00:13:54,480 --> 00:14:01,159 care in general. For I know, for me and and Jeff, I 161 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,679 don't want to speak for you directly with that, but for me, one 162 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:13,240 of the things coming to discovering writing. Sort of been writing all my life 163 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:18,240 in a way, but never doing it formally. Um and Jeff and I 164 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,679 made the decision about five years ago to say, hey, let's let's take 165 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,559 this dream we've always had, let's really do it. Let's let's really go 166 00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:33,519 for it. And what I couldn't have imagined was how therapeutic writing in general 167 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,399 is, so even when it would rub up against because there's certainly a lot 168 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:43,039 of easter eggs. You know, there's this scene in the movie you know, 169 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:50,200 spoiler spoiler alert, when when the scene when the daughter is killed is 170 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:56,240 very much a surrogate for you know, the incident that happened with Jody, 171 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,279 you know, the real life incident, and so you know, that's an 172 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:07,840 example of it's not wasn't an easy scene to write, um, but in 173 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:11,799 writing it, it felt like therapy, you know, it felt I had 174 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,360 no idea how how sort of therapeutic it would be. I've also lived with 175 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:26,200 anxiety disorder for most of my life, um uh, pretty severely, and 176 00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:33,960 I writing has is a very very uh sort of meditative has become an extremely 177 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,720 meditative, pleasurable thing. So I mean, I love writing. You know, 178 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:43,320 I hear a lot of interviews with sort of self self loathing writers that 179 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,240 sort of I hate to write. And I and I we're huge fans of 180 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,480 Almore Leonard and I love seeing him. When he would give interviews, he'd 181 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,320 be like, I love writing, I just I can't wait to write. 182 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,600 That's very much where we come from, like we we love it, you 183 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,799 know. So on the other hand, the film and acting in it is 184 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:12,279 was actually quite self destructive making this thing during COVID and playing this character, 185 00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:18,799 and you know more more I'm joking because at the end of the day, 186 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,399 what I've gotten out of it it has been therapy. And I guess you 187 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,799 get to do that as an actor when you're looking through other people's sort of 188 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:33,039 playing different characters and seeing things through an imaginary sort of circumstance and trying to 189 00:16:33,159 --> 00:16:37,519 understand what people go through, you know, to or what they have gone 190 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:41,559 through to find the truth in it for yourself in a scene or an objective 191 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:48,120 or of a person. But you know, it was the film notes filming 192 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,759 during COVID and the different obstacles we had making a movie was definitely challenging to 193 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,279 all of us. Yeah, for sure, I bet you know, what 194 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:03,759 you all are bringing up are actually therapeutic activities or exercises like writing a trauma 195 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:07,759 narrative give be a very powerful way to process through something that's happened to us. 196 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,720 Also, psychodrama is another therapy technique where you put yourself in the shoes 197 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:18,359 of someone in your life that you are in relationship with or maybe even caused 198 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,839 harm to you as a way to work through some things. And that's actually 199 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,000 like something people do a lot in family therapy. That's interesting to know, 200 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:32,960 So I'm not surprised to hear that you are feeling that, even if you're 201 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,440 like not intentionally going in thinking of it as a therapy get exercise, it's 202 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,119 not surprising to me that you're getting the benefits of it. So that's nice 203 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,400 to hear as someone who's just a watcher of things like this, and to 204 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,240 kind of build on what you were talking about, Michael, in terms of 205 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:52,480 like psychology and mental health. When playing a role like this and having to 206 00:17:52,519 --> 00:17:59,039 get immersed in these experiences, what is there anything that you pull from psychology 207 00:17:59,079 --> 00:18:02,599 or mental health that forms the way that you act in these kind of roles. 208 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,079 Well, I'll tell you this, So getting into the character and trying 209 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,799 to understand what the loss would be. Right, he loses it, So 210 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,319 then what did that feel like? Where what's the shoe into that? Of 211 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,599 course I have a six year old son, so you have to go to 212 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:25,240 these crazy places that you don't want to, to put yourself in an imaginary 213 00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:27,400 circumstance of something happening. And you do all this work, right, you 214 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:33,160 do playing a pastor. I went to sermons and you kind of you just 215 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,559 do all this layering I watched. I told Darren I did a lot of 216 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:40,440 work with Darren too, and we talked about the character because that's the beauty 217 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,119 of having the writers there. If you're lucky enough to have that, it's 218 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,720 pretty amazing to have access to the writers and get in their heads. But 219 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:52,079 I went to I saw this YouTube video and it was this guy who he 220 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,480 literally if you were to cast a math teacher like a characterature of like a 221 00:18:56,519 --> 00:19:00,519 math teacher, right. He was a very guy, it was, and 222 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,200 this is true, this is a real thing. He was in court and 223 00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:10,960 he had the moment to tell his son's killer to uh, you know, 224 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,759 at the end of the trial, and there were two on each side of 225 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:17,480 him. There were two court officers, right, they're on each side of 226 00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:22,119 him. And he stood there and the guy who was up on up next 227 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,160 to the judge up in the bench was like a huge guy to it big 228 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:29,880 and this is the guy who killed this man's son. And he got there 229 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,599 and he stood there and he started to do his speech and uh to him 230 00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:40,440 and express his his words, and he let out this moan from the depths 231 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,079 of his soul. It was like so, and he was like and it 232 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,480 came so, and he grabbed he had a pen and he jumped over the 233 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,960 railing on and he tried to start stabbing the guy and the court officers had 234 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,799 to pull him off, and they kind of they understood, they were careful 235 00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:00,920 with him, you know. And it was the first thing. And it 236 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,319 was that that was my first little shoe into this, you know, Uh, 237 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,559 seeing what happens in this film and the tragedy that occurs with this family 238 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:18,160 and me and my daughter, that that primal, primal instinct and to see 239 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,880 it with this guy who was so on you'd never suspect this man to enrage 240 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,640 like this, and it gave me the chills. This is just a true 241 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,960 like just in searching finding things, the psychology into this character and this circumstances. 242 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,119 So look, you layer it all in right this other things. We 243 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,359 Darren and I did backstory together of how my guy became who he was, 244 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,279 and then you let it go and you trust it and you trust it's in 245 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:51,079 there, and you put your two feet on the ground and you listen and 246 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,640 answer in the scene. And it's kind of like like if you try to 247 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,279 play the result of it too much, you know about sort of fine ending 248 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:03,079 that pinch, not the ouch. So you never want to push in terms 249 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:07,079 of getting into this because again I'm getting into the acting a little bit and 250 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,359 maybe a little off track. But why I'm doing that is because there's nothing 251 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:18,440 more important than trying to find the truth in their story and these circumstances and 252 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,599 to sort of tell the truth so it can touch other people in a way 253 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,200 in a way that maybe they can't understand or understand in a truthful way. 254 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:32,920 So you know, it's like if a person was in a concentration camp, 255 00:21:33,079 --> 00:21:34,480 you know, and you met them at a bar and you were talked to 256 00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:40,440 start at a dinner and started talking. They don't that might come out way 257 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:44,160 later or conversations later, but it's not like they wear that on their sleeve. 258 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:48,720 Right. So the point being is we all have things inside of us, 259 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:55,400 crazy thoughts, things that have happened, things that and and you want 260 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,759 to do this work. If you can't connect or if it hasn't happened in 261 00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:03,039 yours, you create the imaginary circumstance of it, and you layer it in 262 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:08,200 and then you go and play the scene. Okay, that's great. One 263 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,839 thing I also wanted to ask, and I don't know if this will be 264 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:15,559 not a provocative question, but a part of the theme of the movie. 265 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,319 I picked up on a sort of the concept of closure, Like you guys 266 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,839 are talking about if you had one minute with the person who wronged your family 267 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:29,000 or harmed someone you loved, what would you do? And so I'm curious, 268 00:22:29,559 --> 00:22:33,599 does this play into or does this part of like the fantasy of closure 269 00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:37,640 and sort of what are this kind of a big question, But do you 270 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,559 guys have any like personal perspectives on the concept of closure. Therapists were a 271 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:45,960 bit of jaded about that concept. So I'm just curious if in writing this 272 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,200 film, I guess where your head where are your heads at with that concept? 273 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:59,799 Well? What I guess I could I couldn't have known until sort of 274 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:07,799 here we are, because now you know the It started as this script idea 275 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:12,039 that we approached our sister about and got her blessing, and then it as 276 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:18,400 Michael alluded to it, it was a very long, crazy adventure, as 277 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:27,599 making any movie is, but navigating the early days of COVID was herculean to 278 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:38,799 to say the least. But now having the film, it was before anyone 279 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:44,480 saw it. When we finally got to see the finished film, and when 280 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,799 I say we, I mean Michael, Jeff and myself with our editor, 281 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:55,559 we were at the sound stage and watching the finished film. It was a 282 00:23:55,759 --> 00:24:03,680 very it was a very satisfying experience, and not really that we hoped somebody 283 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,079 would connect with the film. If even if a few people do, great, 284 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,160 because you never know how people are going to respond to a film, 285 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:18,559 and we certainly had no idea from their thirty film festivals, and you know, 286 00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:26,640 just tons and tons of amazing feedback about the film and watching Jody, 287 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,480 you know, we've got to experience now being on two stages with her and 288 00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:40,440 to watch an audience clap for her, and to get to see her walk 289 00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:45,400 around and shake hands and be this be the inspirational force that she is, 290 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,759 and she had. She was the one who had the bravery to say, 291 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,440 hey, use my name. I want you to use my name. I 292 00:24:52,480 --> 00:25:00,799 want you to get my story out whenever however you can. And it takes 293 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:03,519 a lot of courage. I mean, I don't know if I could say 294 00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:06,200 that. I don't know if if I had gone through what she went through, 295 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,359 if I could at some point in my life go hey, yeah, 296 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,839 just throw my story out there, get my name out. I just want 297 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,240 to be an inspiration for anyone suffering PTSD in the world. I mean, 298 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:26,200 it's a pretty bold thing. But to experience this sort of people getting a 299 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:33,960 lot of entertainment value from the film, also having a meaningful and sort of 300 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:42,079 a profound experience in hearing about Jody's story the inspiration because we've now got to 301 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:48,440 tell her story and many interviews, and like I said, seeing her on 302 00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:55,839 stage is what it showed me as far as closure goes, is that I 303 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,039 feel like to a degree to you know, never I don't no, I 304 00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:07,559 don't know if you could ever have complete closure on on something that that traumatic. 305 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,920 I don't know, but I can tell you that I have learned that 306 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:22,400 through art through art and creativity and getting together. Um we I think we 307 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:29,599 did create a sort of triumphant, cathartic experience for us as a family. 308 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,279 And uh, going back to the origins of Jody's story and talking about art 309 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,799 that also relates to Michael Lombardi and relates to the show that he was on 310 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,920 Rescue Me. Um, you want to take it from there, we tell 311 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,359 what well, Brittany, sorry to interrupt, but I think we need to 312 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,279 hear the story of what happened to Jody. And again, you know, 313 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,480 Brittany, I never want you to think that we're sort of well, these 314 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:02,200 are her brothers she wants to or told. We never want you to think 315 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,039 we're like sort of exploiting this. It's something that inspiration and something that was 316 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,119 discussed. But I think we've been talking about the inspiration and their sister and 317 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:18,359 this this uh traumatic, traumatic experience. So if you're if you're open to 318 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,839 it, I think these guys should be able to tell you what happened. 319 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,799 And I think it ties in. It ties in. First of all, 320 00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:29,920 it is the story the film, and it's the inspiration, but it'll tie 321 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,839 into the podcast quite nicely as well. The subject matter sure I'd love to 322 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,559 hear it if you as are open to telling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 323 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:41,519 of course. Um So, basically it was essentially gotta get my dates 324 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:48,599 right on. This time just flies. But it was maybe roughly sixteen years 325 00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:52,559 ago or so. My sister, she was very young. She was walking 326 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,240 home from a friend's house, a couple like a block or two away from 327 00:27:57,319 --> 00:28:04,119 her house, and this is a suburb in northern California town. She was 328 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,400 with her friends. Then she was like alone literally for just a matter of 329 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,799 a few minutes. It was late at night. She thought she heard a 330 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:17,680 jogger running behind her, and she just heard these really loud footsteps, and 331 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,839 she was walking next to a ravine. There was like a little section that 332 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,920 was sort of near a highway and there was like this ravine as she again 333 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:32,519 she was walking into her neighborhood, and she said she had a moment of 334 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:36,160 going, gosh, who's jogging this late at night? And she moved to 335 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,920 the side to sort of give the person space, and literally, next thing 336 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:48,880 she knows, she is tackled full force down this twenty two foot ravine. 337 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:56,160 So from there, this is where the horrors really began. This person assaulted 338 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:03,000 her viciously raped her and really attempted to kill her. She she had a 339 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:12,720 belt around her neck. Um. She miraculously survived and sort of um outwitted, 340 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:17,039 fought, did everything she could to get out of there, and she 341 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:23,440 ended up getting out of there, UM climbed out track um tracked down a 342 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:32,680 car and was she very luckily survived because the odds of a stranger attack of 343 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,519 that sort, the odds of surviving that are very very low. They're very 344 00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:42,000 low. It's typically a murder um and those kind of attacks are very rare. 345 00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:48,599 That gentleman was a column a gentleman. That person was not caught for 346 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:56,599 years and years. Um. Ten years went by and he was not caught. 347 00:29:56,079 --> 00:30:02,920 And then after her ten years advancements in DNA, they got a DNA 348 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:11,119 match because this guy was attempting to do this to someone else. And what's 349 00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:17,640 very scary about the whole thing is that it was in the same area ten 350 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:25,559 plus years later and he was a taxi driver, so he was caught. 351 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,599 He ended up going to trial and that's when the trial phase began that went 352 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,559 on for a long time. That's when the nugget of the idea was sort 353 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:42,200 of born and for the movie and then the as I say, there are 354 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:49,799 sort of multiple happy endings here. One the most important happy ending is that 355 00:30:51,160 --> 00:31:00,640 Jody, our sister, not only survived, but after a very difficult subsequent 356 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:08,599 years of PTSD, ended up thriving and becoming a very successful, happy, 357 00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:15,960 healthy person. And she happens to be one of the few female fire fire 358 00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:22,240 captains in the United States. And she's just awesome, awesome human. She's 359 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:29,880 she's she's the best. The second happy ending is the guy was convicted and 360 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,160 he was virtually put away for life. He'll he'll come up for parole when 361 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,359 he's an old man, and hopefully we'll be able to keep him in there. 362 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:44,160 And then the third part being you know when this all start, this 363 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:48,079 all right around the same time as we had come up with this idea. 364 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,240 Independent of that, Jody had approached us and said, do we know anyone 365 00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:57,160 in the in the documentary space. She said, you know, after everything 366 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,839 she went through with pe TSD, she wants to give her story out so 367 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,000 that she can be an example that you can get through it, that there's 368 00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:15,200 ways, there's there's pathways through really really severe PTSD. And we attempted that. 369 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,880 We attempted to find you know, jeez, I don't know if I 370 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,119 know anybody in the documentary space. And we did some digging and looking, 371 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,119 and then on a whim, brought up the retaliators as like, hey, 372 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,319 you may think this is a crazy idea, but what do you think. 373 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,680 She went great, I don't She's like, I don't care. Yeah, 374 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,480 if you can make it into a movie and you can use that as the 375 00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:42,119 platform to get my name out, please And we told her, you know, 376 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,839 it's not going to be your exact story, but it'll be a kickoff 377 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,599 point and blah blah blah, and she said, yeah, do it. 378 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,799 Do it. You have my blessing, go do it. So the weird 379 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:57,799 part where this connects up to Michael is that when we finished the scriptum, 380 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:05,039 the first person and we sent it to was Michael, and Michael responded to 381 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:09,759 it very very quickly, and was essentially he was on a plane in three 382 00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:13,880 days. He's on the East coast, we're on the West coast, and 383 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,079 he showed up at our doorstep in three days and was like, Okay, 384 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:22,039 I'm going to get this movie made where you know, I'm born to play 385 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:27,440 this role of John Bishop and I'm going to get this movie made and we 386 00:33:27,559 --> 00:33:34,359 formed a partnership basically right away independent of this. What I did not I 387 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:40,720 was not even aware of, was that my sister in Well, Michael, 388 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,920 why don't you tell this part of the story, because this is sound cool 389 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,599 coming from you. Well, I think you're doing a great job. But 390 00:33:51,079 --> 00:33:55,839 yeah, so so basically, she was in probi school right during the time 391 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,519 of when this happened. She was a firefighter training school. This is when 392 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:04,839 she was around eighteen, right when the when the attack happened. Darren. 393 00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:13,400 Yeah, she then ended up, as Darren said, becoming a firefighter. 394 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:20,920 And I was on a television show called Rescue Me, as Darren said, 395 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,559 early, which is about New York City firefighters post nine to eleven and the 396 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:31,559 issues that they and that sort of the demons that they deal with on a 397 00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:38,440 day to day basis. And it turns out that that was Jody's like favorite 398 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:46,079 television show and it was, as she tells it, part of her healing 399 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:52,559 process. It made her laugh and it made her cry, and it made 400 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:59,159 her see firefighters as real human beings who were fighting these demons and had PTSD 401 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,239 and all these different issues. But we're still going into burning buildings to save 402 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,480 people and still doing their job. And one of the things that was interesting 403 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:15,760 about about Rescue Me was we the guys had issues in the firehouse, you 404 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,119 know, and and it was funny because we would, uh, there were 405 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,880 firemen at the time who had issues with the show because but but it was 406 00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:27,840 more more like the senior guys did and then they, you know, at 407 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,159 the end of the day, after you know, a hundred episodes, they 408 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,199 got it because we did have you do have to hollywoodize something a little bit, 409 00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:37,360 but it was issues like this, like the Captain and the show, 410 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:44,840 he's an old man and he's has a gambling problem and he's walking into a 411 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,119 an old woman's apartment and he he's not that old. I said he was 412 00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:53,440 an old man. And he opens he kicks a pot like the cabinets sort 413 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,159 of doors open and money falls out, like that's where she hides her money 414 00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:01,440 and he takes it because of his gamble issue and then he does end up 415 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,440 returning it. But just the different things that these guys had to go through 416 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:07,880 his human beings on the show, and that's what I'm most proud of of 417 00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:10,559 being on a show like that. Dennis Leary, he wrote it, he 418 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:16,679 produced it, he started it, he co created, and like in Fires 419 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,280 for instance, it was all smoke. He wanted it, so it wasn't 420 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,599 like man against flame, like Backdraft. He wanted aotic point is very real. 421 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:31,599 And Jody latched onto this show because she was a probationary firefighter. And 422 00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:36,559 here's the crazy serendipitous part is that I mean it all is, but that 423 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:42,079 I played the probe. I was the probationary firefighter. So she connected with 424 00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:45,880 my character a lot. And it's so interesting that as these guys tell it 425 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,000 and Jody that I was her favorite character, and then here I am the 426 00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:52,599 lead in her fan. And these guys didn't even know this, right, 427 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:55,800 I didn't even know it. We didn't know. I figured, well, 428 00:36:57,199 --> 00:36:59,920 knowing she was a firefighter, well she must be a rescue me fan. 429 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,480 And I remember when I first told her I knew Michael Lombardi and I was 430 00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:07,039 working with him. She didn't even believe me. She and she was like, 431 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:09,880 yeah, right, I said, no, I did because we worked 432 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:15,119 in music together years before. It's where we met. And come to find 433 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:17,800 out, she didn't really believe me. She was like, I just couldn't 434 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:24,280 believe it because she was turns out, completely obsessed with Michael and his character 435 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:31,440 and was just like you know, she she really credits the show as helping 436 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:35,880 her in those times. She said she just kind of watched it on a 437 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,840 loop. So when we told her Michael was the star of the film who 438 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:46,119 was in a way sort of surrogate her father in the movie because you know, 439 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:52,079 the character's named John, My dad's name is John. Not a coincidence, 440 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:57,760 you know, um uh and uh, And so you know, it 441 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,719 was beyond we called her. We facetimed her because I finally started realizing she 442 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:07,760 wasn't believing me, and Michael was over and he facetimed her, and she 443 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:13,360 was in her firehouse and the show, you know, Rescue Me in a 444 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,760 Firehouse is about as you know, it's about as uh uh you know, 445 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,559 they put it on a very high pedestal, as like the only you know 446 00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:30,679 firefighters show worth its salt. And so she's running around the firehouse showing everybody. 447 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,119 Michael Lombardi's on the phone and freaking out and it's it was, it 448 00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:37,440 was, It was hilarious. So but it really made it like, wow, 449 00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:42,960 unbelievable. Yeah, and I just wanted to add um, Brittany, 450 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,239 because I know you were asking about closure and like how all this sort of 451 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:51,039 relates to closure and what our maybe our personal opinions are about it, and 452 00:38:51,159 --> 00:38:53,440 um, you know, I you know, I think I'm with you maybe 453 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,800 having some kind of or I don't know if you were expressing that opinion for 454 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,719 yourself or just for the general uh you knows a psychologists. But you know, 455 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:07,760 I'm pretty skeptical of the concept of closure. I actually I think that 456 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:14,519 might be what drives people to want to take revenge. You know. It's 457 00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,519 this desire to make it all go away forever, you know, this awful 458 00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:24,679 feeling and to sort of settle the score once and for all, and really 459 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,239 like in writing the film and doing all these great things, all these wins 460 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,639 that we really had with telling, you know, helping Jody's story get out 461 00:39:32,639 --> 00:39:37,960 there. I don't look at it as closure, but in a sense, 462 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:44,559 it's like the writing of the script itself. It's it's this outlet for giving 463 00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:47,639 it some air, you know what I mean, of coping with it as 464 00:39:47,679 --> 00:39:52,960 it comes, you know, And I think that you know, this doesn't 465 00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:58,559 make the traumatic event that happened to Jody go away, you know, but 466 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,239 it but it is a sort of vessel, a sort of you know, 467 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:07,360 maybe direct or canal to direct that that trauma through as as it becomes more 468 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,840 difficult to deal with, you know, or if it does arise out, 469 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,239 you know, arise it away where it is difficult to deal with. So 470 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,159 so yeah, I think it's It's an interesting way to frame the question because 471 00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:22,400 I do think that in a sense, the you know, one of the 472 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,800 anti heroes of the film in a sense also a villain, Jed. I 473 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,480 think he is someone whom it takes that to the extreme of trying to find 474 00:40:31,519 --> 00:40:36,400 that closure, and the irony is he never finds it because he just keeps 475 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,280 it the violence begets violence, but gets violence. You know. It's almost 476 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,039 like a drug at that point, you know what I mean. Yeah, 477 00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:49,039 that was the point was that you see, if you took revenge to its 478 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:58,880 furthest depraved, sadistic, and it still isn't enough because it became about right 479 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,119 now, not only could he you know, did he against spoiler alert, 480 00:41:02,119 --> 00:41:07,239 I'll try to be a little big not only did he keep things going for 481 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:13,760 his own situation all those years, but then he started having to do it 482 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:23,119 vicariously through others and him taunting h Michael's character and saying it's time for you 483 00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:29,639 to heal, which is a big moment in them. You know, I 484 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:37,800 believe the character in that moment really believes that. I think Jed believes that. 485 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:44,760 But we see the audience can see it's not you know, it's not 486 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:50,159 that easy, right, you know. Well, he's had to trade a 487 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,880 normal life for this very depraved life, and so that obviously ends up being 488 00:41:57,079 --> 00:42:01,760 very having a lot of crazy outcomes. It's hard. It's because we're digging. 489 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:07,719 We're digging so deep in this psychology stuff. Yeah, it seems like 490 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,000 you know, you know, some people can have a version of healing that 491 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:16,719 is closure that might be self destructive and you know, perpetuating the pain and 492 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,320 even aggravating it and making it worse. You know. Um, yeah, 493 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,639 I think it's a it's an interesting way to frame it. Yeah. Something 494 00:42:24,639 --> 00:42:29,679 I want to say too is we uh, Jeff and I were committed to 495 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,719 this very early, and then we had many conversations with Michael about this, 496 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,079 and that is that in writing the film, we really, as as writers, 497 00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:53,679 felt a responsibility to not judge the characters or telegraph uh personal opinions in 498 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:59,400 other words, you know, well, here's what you should do in this 499 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,000 situation, and here's what you shouldn't do. We really tried to let the 500 00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:13,719 characters create characters and then again create a dramatic situation where it would be entertaining 501 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,159 for the audience to wrestle. You know, My favorite scene in the film 502 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:28,280 is the moment where John Bishop Michael Lombardi's character is confronted with the question, 503 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,760 and without giving things away, it's a long scene and you really see him 504 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,800 struggle, And that's my favorite part of the film because that was really the 505 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:45,119 essence of what I feel like it was nailed. I feel like through the 506 00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:51,480 directing, the editing, the acting, it all really comes together in that 507 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:58,119 I don't feel like the camera is judging those two characters. I don't feel 508 00:43:58,119 --> 00:44:04,320 like the actors are telegraphing, uh what they want or or you know, 509 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,960 or what the right thing, or who's the good guy, who's the bad 510 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:10,079 guy. I really feel like it's a moment where the audience has to stare 511 00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:16,000 down their own thoughts and wait, what would I do? I've had so 512 00:44:16,039 --> 00:44:20,840 many people. I had a really good friend of ours give him a shout 513 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,199 out. His named Rudy writer, an attorney, amazing, amazing guy and 514 00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:30,119 he uh he when he saw the film, he called me and said, 515 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,360 man, I'm I am pissed at you. And I said, I said 516 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,559 why. And this is a I mean, the mensh of all mention of 517 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:46,440 human beings, this guy. And he's like, you really made me confront 518 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,000 something I never I just you know, He's like, I would never imagine 519 00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:58,159 I could do anything like that. But in that scene was really wrestling with 520 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,360 my sort of cont being confronted with jeez, what gosh, that's not the 521 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,239 right thing to do, and I why do I feel? And you know, 522 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,079 call us sadistic, That's what we wanted, you know, we really 523 00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:15,880 wanted that. You know, I maybe laugh, you know I laughed when 524 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,559 you hear it. But I've heard it from multiple people that said, gosh, 525 00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:22,199 I really felt so conflicted and I didn't know what to think. And 526 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,440 I just that's great. You know, it's just so easy to just this 527 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,880 is wrong, this is good, and it's kind of boring. I like 528 00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:36,840 cinema that sort of challenges you and makes you have to do a little of 529 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,280 the work as the audience. That makes sense. Yeah, And I've been 530 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,559 nodding very knowingly while you've all been talking, because I think what I appreciated 531 00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:47,679 watching the movie like as a therapist is that you're right in that the movie 532 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,880 plays around with the idea of closure and the fantasy of closure. Because as 533 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,239 a therapist, why I was nodding emphatically at times while you were talking is 534 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,559 that I think it's this idea deal about like there's an answer and if I 535 00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:05,880 can find the answer, all of my feelings will go away and I won't 536 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,000 feel bad anymore. And well, we have to all be honest with us 537 00:46:10,039 --> 00:46:15,679 all about is that there isn't really an answer. That's very frustrating when I 538 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:16,920 as a therapist, when I work with clients, I say, have to 539 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,880 let go of this idea that there's an answer over here, and as soon 540 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,199 as it is closure, it's an action as I say the right thing to 541 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:28,320 the right person. Sometimes people think I'm withholding the answer from them in therapy, 542 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,719 like I'm just not telling them the thing that's going to make anything different. 543 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,519 And so I think what your movie does, and also what we try 544 00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:39,559 to encourage clients is that there's never going to be one thing that makes this 545 00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:43,880 bad thing just disappear out of your life. It's a part of you now. 546 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,719 When you go through a trauma, it integrates inside of you and you're 547 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,880 never going to be the person you were before that happened. But that doesn't 548 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,079 mean that your life is over. Your life is bad and we have to 549 00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:59,960 radically accept that and reconcile that. And so I did appreciate and watch it 550 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,559 that you guys don't not to spoil you guys, don't take I think what 551 00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:09,679 would be the simplistic turn with that, and that's sort of indulging in that 552 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:16,480 revenge fantasy and showing that it can eat you up because you don't find the 553 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,480 answers and you're like, oh, well maybe the answer is down there, 554 00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:21,519 and then you're like, well I couldn't find it there, so maybe it's 555 00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:24,079 down here. And then like the jet character you're talking about, now, 556 00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:28,920 you're just wandering around and you don't even know where you are anymore. And 557 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,880 so I think that was all done very well and I appreciate that as a 558 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,400 therapist. It surprised me pleasantly. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I 559 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,239 never thought of it that there was a different Yeah, because there is, 560 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:44,239 Look, there are fantasy revenge films that do scratch an itch, you know. 561 00:47:44,599 --> 00:47:46,719 But this is not quite that. I don't want to get too much 562 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,480 away and saying it, but yeah, that was. It was very deliberately 563 00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:55,840 not just that. You know. Yeah, and we're big, we're big 564 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,079 fans of that aesthetic, you know. We love we love the gritties, 565 00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:07,639 seventies revenge exploitation films, we love the Charles Bronson films, and right right 566 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:14,239 there is there is a there is a satisfaction in that kind of cinema because 567 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:21,079 it isn't real life, and it is life isn't so clean. And yeah, 568 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:28,719 I appreciate you saying that because we, uh we One of the terms 569 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,159 that we use with Michael was this sort of we would say thinking Man's hostile, 570 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,239 but we didn't mean. I want to make clear too, because I 571 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,519 love Hostile. I think it's one of the best modern day horror films modern 572 00:48:42,679 --> 00:48:47,440 you know, last twenty years or so. Yeah, I think it's a 573 00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:52,480 masterpiece. So when I say thinking Man's I don't mean a smarter movie than 574 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:58,679 than Hostile, or a more thought out movie than Hostile. What I what 575 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:05,280 I mean by that is in Hostile, the horror of that movie is that 576 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:13,920 these people are torturing people truly for the thrill of torturing people, because they're 577 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:19,000 so there's such sociopaths, they're so bored with life, they're so you know, 578 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,719 um, you know there. I guess you would just have to be 579 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:30,320 past malignantly narcissis narcissistic at that point and just be a full sociopath to do 580 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:36,599 partake in something like that. And it's that horror of humanity that you go, 581 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,800 somebody could do that. That That is for what makes for me, 582 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:44,519 what makes that movie so like, it just hits me in the gut because 583 00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:49,800 it's really hard for me to put my head around doing that to another human 584 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,199 being just for kicks. So the whole thought of with Retaliators was, well, 585 00:49:54,199 --> 00:50:00,360 what if we built up enough backstory and took time enough to where we 586 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:06,760 could take an audience member into uh, could you do that? Could would 587 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,480 you? Now? Personally, No, I don't think that's the answer, 588 00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:15,440 right. But the fun of it was to go, let's let's really let's 589 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:16,840 really go there. You know, Michael, we've been going on and on 590 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:25,599 where say something. No, I'm I think you're filling the space quite nicely. 591 00:50:27,119 --> 00:50:30,639 Um, I think that you also I've been asked like what would you 592 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:36,840 do? You know, and and to get back to what Darren said earlier, 593 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,960 I think what's so interesting about this too is they took a man of 594 00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:44,400 the cloth, you know, they took a past and put him in this 595 00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:47,599 situation. Who's who's uh so? So I think you know, it's it's 596 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:53,760 um. It's hard to answer, honestly, because you can judge this from 597 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:59,559 a seat pretty easily. Yeah, but if you're really confronted with it, 598 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,000 and that really happened, that kind of loss um and the way in which 599 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,039 it happens, it's uh. I think it's a tough it's a tough thing 600 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:15,920 to to digest and and and say what you would do either way unless it 601 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,360 would really happened. And you know, the thing is you could be like 602 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,320 I think that's what's crazy about the film is half the people are like, 603 00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:24,039 yeah, get them, get him, get him, and then maybe the 604 00:51:24,119 --> 00:51:29,639 other half sort of the fence right there with but what he's doing is wrong, 605 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,159 but they understand it. And it makes you think, you know, 606 00:51:32,199 --> 00:51:37,400 if you really were if you had this person in front of you, would 607 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,119 you really be able to hurt another human being in that moment right right, 608 00:51:42,599 --> 00:51:45,920 really hurt a person. That's crazy to see, like to hurt skin and 609 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:52,719 you know and see blood and are you capable? Yeah yeah, And it's 610 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:59,559 simultaneously could you walk away? Right? It's like that's the and I love 611 00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:05,079 what you said. It's true because there's we've gotten that reaction where people are 612 00:52:04,679 --> 00:52:07,920 they they say, oh, boy, I was about to get upset because 613 00:52:07,199 --> 00:52:12,880 I was so invested in Bishop and I thought he was going to cross over 614 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,639 there and so I was so happy that he didn't do that, and boy, 615 00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:20,599 I was like not And then as Michael said, have had other people, 616 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,639 Man, you know, I just wish you would have done just a 617 00:52:22,679 --> 00:52:25,679 little something, just a little you know, I just because I would, 618 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,800 you know. So it is interesting, you know. And that was again 619 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:37,440 that's all music for us because uh, and I appreciate your your insights into 620 00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:42,159 that because really what we aimed for. Well, I think if if I'm 621 00:52:42,159 --> 00:52:45,880 listening to Brittany right that that latter half of the audience, UH might need 622 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:52,440 to get a little helped. They might just you know, have something going 623 00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:55,079 on that I would hope that they would go to a therapist to maybe talk 624 00:52:55,119 --> 00:53:05,280 that through. You. I love all of our audience discouraging Jeff, Jeff, 625 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:13,440 where I would where I would clap back at you, I'm just no. 626 00:53:13,559 --> 00:53:15,400 But to push back on that a little bit, what Michael was saying 627 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:22,199 is I think a very good point, which is that it's very easy right 628 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,239 here to say yeah, that's the wrong thing to do. And I agree. 629 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,679 I think the challenge of the film and where people get caught up is 630 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:37,840 when you play out that imaginary circumstance of you really are going through it, 631 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:43,800 and here they are presented to you on a plate, right, It's you 632 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:49,039 are confronted with an animalistic thought of well, wait a minute, if I 633 00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:54,039 am in that emotional state, could I resist that temptation? And that's where 634 00:53:54,039 --> 00:53:59,079 I think because I think, yes, I do think academically, I would 635 00:53:59,119 --> 00:54:01,800 assume most people would would say, well, yeah, that's the wrong thing 636 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:07,480 to do. And but you know, I think there's something to be said 637 00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:10,199 about when you're in that emotional there's also you know, as a parent, 638 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:20,000 there's a there's a there's a protectiveness that may be unreasonable sometimes but it is 639 00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:24,519 just sort of there and how do you deal with it? You know? 640 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,840 So anyway, just earlier, you said something really call your therapist. First, 641 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,039 No, no, but I think actually what actually, no, I 642 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,719 met that really is just a joke only because well, look, it's a 643 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,719 film. When you're rooting for a character to do something in a film, 644 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,079 it's not the same as rooting for a person in real life to do something 645 00:54:45,079 --> 00:54:49,400 to another human being as well, So something to be said for that. 646 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,079 And Brittany earlier, you said something very heavy and you were like, look 647 00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:57,840 you uh and the DECI isn't to quote you, but I think it was 648 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:04,559 leaning into this idea of when something like this could happen, or something dramatic 649 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,920 and traumatic happens, you know you're never going to be the same again, 650 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:15,400 right. What's crazy is when you said that, like it was like, 651 00:55:15,639 --> 00:55:20,199 wow, you know you're never going to be the same again, right, 652 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:25,679 Like everything changed. So then part of me just justified why I would want 653 00:55:25,679 --> 00:55:29,960 to do revenge because I wouldn't. I'm never gonna you know what I'm saying 654 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,559 like you, because I'm thinking through the character something now and you know someone 655 00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:39,079 did something like that to my child. You're never going to be the same 656 00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:42,800 again anyway, so you might as well get the guy, you know what 657 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,400 I mean? Your life's changed forever I'm saying things you could think, I'm 658 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,679 not condoned. I'm not saying one way or the other. But I remember 659 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,119 like having to deal with all these questions when I was getting you know, 660 00:55:54,519 --> 00:55:59,760 prepared with the script. So yeah, and I think sort of that like 661 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,639 part of being going through trauma is also there's like a hopeless component to it. 662 00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,599 So in thinking of a through like a therapist, that thought process combined 663 00:56:08,599 --> 00:56:13,679 with that could definitely lead to self destructive behavior is probably not to the extent 664 00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,800 of this movie, but versions of it. And so where we try to 665 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,599 go in therapy is that you're never going to be the same again, and 666 00:56:21,679 --> 00:56:24,280 that's not necessarily a bad thing, Like you're not going to be a worse 667 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,079 version of yourself on the other side, so you don't have to like dive 668 00:56:28,159 --> 00:56:32,840 bomb your life and very like fuck it mentality, Like it's more like how 669 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:38,599 do we integrate who you were and who you are now without having to sacrifice 670 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:44,320 some version of yourself or shut down your emotional self. I think also with 671 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,480 the idea of like closure, is that, like I said, if I 672 00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:52,159 can just do this thing, then hear the pain will go away. And 673 00:56:52,199 --> 00:56:54,360 so it's more like how do we integrate the pain and kind of what you're 674 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,679 talking about with your sister Jody, Like, sometimes part of that growth is 675 00:56:59,079 --> 00:57:04,119 how do I you this pain and my experience to create meaning from that, 676 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,880 either by helping others sharing my story, you know, getting into like more 677 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,639 post traumatic growth, which is a new concept, a newer concept in mental 678 00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:15,880 health that people are talking about more and more, and that part of that 679 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:20,599 can be like finding meaning from what's happened and then using that in a positive 680 00:57:20,599 --> 00:57:24,239 way that aligns with the values we hold now and the values we held before. 681 00:57:24,519 --> 00:57:27,960 And so with like your character of Bishop, you know, I think 682 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,079 part of how he goes through the movie is by the end melding those things 683 00:57:32,079 --> 00:57:37,079 together. How do I still live by my values and not sacrificing my core 684 00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:43,880 self while also integrating that I am a slightly different person now because something right 685 00:57:44,119 --> 00:57:49,000 wiles happened to me series of wild things in the course of this movie. 686 00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:52,239 Yeah, and Bishop by the end is he is not the same. He 687 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,599 has changed forever. But you know, well, I guess I don't want 688 00:57:55,599 --> 00:57:58,880 to give too much the movie, but yeah, I'll just leave it there. 689 00:57:59,039 --> 00:58:02,760 He's not the same. Well, I know, you guys have been 690 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:08,119 very generous with your time. Is there anything else you want the listeners to 691 00:58:08,199 --> 00:58:13,400 take away from this conversation or seeing the movie? And also where can the 692 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:19,199 retaliators be found? Where can people experience everywhere? You can rent or buy 693 00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,239 movies. It is available video on demand, so that's Apple, you know, 694 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:29,800 iTunes, Amazon, Voodoo, Google Play, red Box, a whole 695 00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:37,119 bunch and right now in America and Canada, and we will be going into 696 00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:42,400 more places soon, right. Yeah, I want to say that I realized, 697 00:58:42,639 --> 00:58:45,760 you know, and I've realized this a long time ago, which I 698 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:51,239 guess just haven't thought about it. How how important you know therapists are. 699 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:58,760 And I think and I say this in life, but what I meant also 700 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,719 was just because I was thinking about how helpful you would be and would have 701 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:07,199 been to talk to about this role. Actually, thank you. So obviously 702 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:12,599 that applies to humans and behavior, right, trying to do as actors and 703 00:59:12,679 --> 00:59:20,320 storytellers. So um, it's interesting because you opened up my thought process actually, 704 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,320 and part of what you said made made me want to take revenge. 705 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:28,760 You put me on that side to be on would But I know we haven't 706 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,880 had a real session here. Yeah, some of the little tidbits and maybe 707 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,679 it's the mood I'm in or whatever, and that's another thing right like wherever, 708 00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:40,800 And it was like so it was interesting to talk and sort of peel 709 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,480 the onion back with you a little bit and get to the you know, 710 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,199 feel the rawness of some of this topic. So depending on how much you 711 00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:54,159 are for a session next role, I'll send you an invoice. Yeah we 712 00:59:54,800 --> 01:00:00,360 might. We might have to consult with you from now on before we yeah. 713 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:05,760 Script, but you know, just one thing I wanted to mention before 714 01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,000 we go. This just came to me right now, is that, you 715 01:00:08,039 --> 01:00:14,960 know, I think what makes John Bishop's story sort of unique too, is 716 01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:20,519 that he is somebody that in his corner of the world has all the answers 717 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,960 in a way, you know, And I think for some people that have 718 01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:30,840 that profile, they have that personality type where they're usually the educator, the 719 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,800 person that consoles people. You know, we see him in the movie, 720 01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,320 you know, talking to people, you know, kind of consoling them a 721 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,000 little bit. It's where do they turn? You know, it can feel 722 01:00:40,039 --> 01:00:44,480 a little like, wait, I'm supposed to have the answers here, and 723 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:49,079 you know, really therapy really benefits everybody. You know, we don't all 724 01:00:49,159 --> 01:00:52,880 have the answers. So and even therapists go to therapy, you know example, 725 01:00:54,760 --> 01:01:05,880 but retalitied or too mom therapist, it happens. Oh no, where 726 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:10,679 we could go? Right? Interesting? We'll have more say, probably in 727 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,920 that opinion. Why. But thank you all so much. It's been so 728 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,880 fun to chat. And yeah, everyone keep your eyes out for retaliated. 729 01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,320 It sounds like it's widely available, so if this chat has sparked your interests, 730 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,679 I would encourage everyone to check it out. Thank you all for joining 731 01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:30,880 me. Thank you, Darren, Jeffrey and Michael. Thank you so much, 732 01:01:30,239 --> 01:01:31,360 so much, thank you,