Good morning, monsters, and welcome to this special Labor Day. Addition,
I hope that you guys are all out there doing whatever it is that you
enjoy. Myself, I'm I'm probably out in the woods right now. Even
though this show is live, today's episode is pre recorded, so just keep
that in mind going through the rest of today's episode. We're live for you,
but prerecorded for me right here. So, as I said, I'm
probably out in the woods chasing something furry. I don't know what, but
hopefully that's where I'm at. So let's let's right get let's get right into
this alright. So I want to remind everyone to go out and check out
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journey even more exciting together. It always I try and be proactive and roll
right from that video into the next video, and it ends up itself off.
I don't know why, but that that is a technical issue, and
that's what this show is all about. So there you go. All right,
guys, my guest today, as I remind you is prerecorded. Uh,
and my guest is Kathy Strain. Welcome to the show. Hey,
thank you for having me. I'm cracking myself up about the disclaimer that anything
I say is just my problem. So that and it's it's funny because the
one guest that I needed to play that for was the one that I forgot
to play it for, So I thought that was very interesting. I'm like,
oh, here we go. This is a fun roller coaster we're going
down and uh yeah. So, but welcome to the show, Kathy.
I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you for having me. Awesome.
So why don't you tell a little bit about yourself and how you got
into cryptids and bigfoot and stuff for anybody that's not familiar with Oh sure.
I am the forest archaeologist and travel relations program manager for the Stanislas National Forest,
which is in California. We're right adjacent to the Semite National Park if
anybody knows where that is, So we're up in the foothills, beautiful country.
I have a bachelor's and master's degree in anthropology. I've been in the
Forest service for I don't know thirty five years and been here at the Stanislas
twenty five years and so I'm a lot older than I look, I guess,
but I came into big footing really young. I saw a legend of
Boggy Creek when I was the little girl. Had a huge influence on me.
And it around fifth grade or so, I asked my teacher what I
needed to do to study bigfoot for a living, and she said, well,
you probably have to go into anthropology, and I said, okay,
So that was always my pathway. I I dabbled a little bit in geology,
but that didn't last very long because it was math and I don't do
maths. So and so, you know, and I figured it out that
I was nobody was going to pay me to study bit foot and so but
by that time, you know, we always spend our time traveling when I
was, you know, growing up, and we went to national parks and
national forests and national monuments and stuff. We rarely ever went to fun things
like Disneyland or any of that stuff. My parents were really into the outdoors,
and so it was, you know, anthropology for service was all a
natural fit. And then because you're outside all the time, you know,
as an anthropologist archaeologist. When I'm doing is looking for artifacts and sites,
but you can look for footprints at the same time. And I remember it's
happened to me a couple of times when I've been out doing a survey and
come across bit foot footprints before, and so it's just been kind of like,
you know, I don't know if I'm a you know, if I
hit him with a government car, do I get in trouble? You know
what doesn't make it the governments if that happens. So, but I've never
seen a bigfoot while on duty with the Force Service. So very interesting now,
I, like I said before we got on the air here, I
have heard, like some interviews with you on Cliff and Bobo Show and stuff
like that you have had big footing colendar as though, correct, Yes,
yes I have. I've I have have three sightings in Oklahoma and the area
known as Areas with the NAWAC in two thousand and twelve, twenty thirteen,
twenty fourteen. And I've had lots of experience here in Tweloma County where I
live as well, but no sightings, just a variety of everything else of
howls and footprints, A nest lots of different types of things, but definitely
the the most exciting stuff is of course the sightings, because you know,
you know what it is that you're seeing, and versus sometimes when you see
footprints. You know, if you don't know what you're doing, how do
you know it's just not a double tap bear prints, you know? So
so yeah, the sightings are definitely the pinnacle of my experiences. Very cool.
As I was saying to you again before we got on the show here,
you know, I'm well aware of the North of American Wouldave Conservancy and
your work there and stuff, but I wasn't aware of all of your your
tribal and Native American research with these creatures. Can you tell us a little
bit? You have a book about all? You tell me about your book
and what's all in there. Well, because of my interest, you know,
in bigfoot and the correlation of being an archaeologist and tribal relations, it
just was a natural evolution. I guess. It started when I was on
the Quay National Forest and I was the district archeologist for the Tulli Tulli District,
I guess, and I would help the tribes with some of the projects
they were doing. But we were also doing an excavation. And I knew
about the Harryman pictographs or painted rock before, I had been to them before,
but I didn't know that there were stories behind why those paintings were there.
And I was going over to the Tuli River Indian Reservations and talking with
the elders about this excavation that I was doing, and you know, basically,
what do you guys want me to do if I find human remains?
And what do you want me to do if this happens and stuff? And
I don't even remember how we got on this subject, but they started talking
about Bigfoot and I said, oh, you know, I love Bigfoot.
Blah blah blah. Anyway, long story short. At they towards the end
of this long process of doing travel consultation, they said, you know,
we really like you. They really had a thing for my My young son
was a flaming redhead, and I couldn't come talk to them unless I brought
him, and so they would just pass him around. They just thought he
was, you know, the cutest thing they ever saw. And he's an
archaeologist now too, by the way, and also into bit butt. So
they just said, you know, we want to tell you these stories and
it's okay, you know, if you want to write it down, and
that we had to go through some iterations of it because they gotten some disagreements
over well, no, you have this wrong, and you have this wrong.
But in the end I was given these stories and I kept him to
myself for a very long period of time because I really felt like they were
very important to the tribe and I didn't want to just do whatever with them.
And and in two thousand and three I decided, I remember John Green,
they were we were putting they were putting together the Internet National Bigfoot Symposium
and Willow Creek back in I think, yeah, two thousand and three,
and they were looking for people to you know, talk there. And of
course, by you know, I had joined the BFRO. I knew who
you know, Meldrum and Grants and all. Grant said, I guess just
already passed away by two thousand and three. But I said, well,
you know, it's time for me to kind of show myself. You know
that I've been talking to tribes for a very long time and I have this
information. And so I gave a presentation there, which was wonderful because it's
you know, Bob Gimlin, And first time I met Bobo, and first
time I met a whole bunch of people, and that's where I met My
husband was at that conference, and so it was just the start of something
that bloomed. So then, like I said, I had already been gathering
stories and talking to tribes, and so I approached my publisher, which is
Hancock House, and I said, you know, would you guys be interested
in something like this? And they said, well, you know that's mostly
California Pacific Northwest stories. You got more and I said, wow, I
don't know. And about that same time, Craig Woolheater, who was at
the time. I don't see if I can remember what their old group was
called. It was who the NAWAC involved from the previous group, but Craig
Woolheater was and I met him at the two thousand and three symposium. He
approached me about giving a talk at the just looked out of my head,
oh, San Antonio, University of Texas and San Antonio, for a big
conference they were doing down there in a big museum displayed a night said okay,
you know, I'd be nice to go down there. Be. You
know, Bob's family lives in Texas, and so it's always a good time
to see family and have a little bit of a vacation. And so I
thought to myself, while I'm going to Texas, I should do right by
the tribes down there. Let me see what the Catto and the other tribes
say about Bigfoot. And wow, when I dived in, I was like,
I clearly have had a Pacific Northwest blinder on, you know, going
they can't possibly exist outside of California and Oregon and Washington, and then could
you know? It's just blinders. We tend to do that. And so
I got tons of stories. That's what I gave my presentation on. And
then I thought, I need to look at the rest of the United States.
I need to look at Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, all those
other states. And that's how the book came to be was once I started
diving into tribes and their traditional beliefs and other locations, the stuff I gathered
became the book. And that's pretty much how it happened, and pretty much
how I kind of, like, you know, started being more open that
Bigfoot is not a Pacific Northwest phenomena. He exists all through the United States,
and then since then, I then said to myself, Kathy, if
they if this is a real species in the United States, Well, clearly
he's been here as long as humans have been here, crossed over probably at
the same time from the bearing Land Bridge. There's no reason to think that
there isn't bigfoot down in South America. So I started looking into that,
and I have given a couple of presentations on those stories, but I haven't
I was thinking about that being my next book, but I just haven't had
the time to put anything together. But essentially the stories are very, very
very very similar to what you find in North America. The names are very
similar, they have similar cultural practices such as dances. They don't have any
totem poles, but that's a pretty unique art work that happens basically just in
one part of the United States. But they've got baskets, they've got all
kinds of different things, just like what you find in the United States.
And so I would say that the language barriers a little harder to get through
because I barely speak English alone, you know, Spanish. But when I
get the opportunity that is going to be. My next project is to take
that material and put it into a book so that all of these continents are
represented. That's fascinating. I love it. So if you're okay with this,
let's let's dive in more into this because I think this is really really
interesting and stuff. I guess my first question would be, is when you're
looking at all these different stories across the United States and even down into South
America and Central American stuff, what are you noticing that is the most similar?
Like, like, what are these all these stories have in common and
what conclusions can you draw from that? I think, well, one thing
that I think is very interesting is in the United States, most tribes consider
Bigfoot to be a brother of some sort, so they acknowledge that he's not
us, but he's similar to us versus in South America, he's very much
just an animal that lives in the woods and they don't kind of have that
attachment to him. But other than that, he's stills women. That's a
very common story throughout the United States, Central America, South America. So
you have to always be on your on your guard because you know, it
always makes me feel like there's not many of them and so humans or females
are the logical you know mate to have, and so those are very similar.
Course, hair covered, tall, walks on two legs, bangs on
trees, yells, whistles. A common throughout throughout the United States in Central
and South America has never go outside if you hear one whistle, because that's
how they steal you, as they lure you outside in the dark. And
you know, we don't see so good in the dark. I believe the
foot see pretty well in the dark. And so that's kind of how you
get stolen, is that you're doing something stupid by being alone in the dark
and not know that he's there. And so that the probably one of the
best stories was from the sixteen hundreds where a Spanish priest had written down talking
about what the locals said about this animal and it's the sacharooni is the traditional
name for it. It's wild man of the forest, wild man of the
jungle kind of thing, just like we have wild man of the forests and
stuff up here as well. And the priest had noted that when they were
talking about this animal, they would talk about his feet. And you know
how meldrum always talks about the mid Tarsto break. The priest was describing that
what was unique about this animal is that its hand its feet were just like
its hands, that it could move its feet like a hand, and so
that to me, I always thought that was just well, it's probably talking
about the mid Tarsto break that they could They thought that was weird about this
animal, and so I don't know the name. Body else thought it was
interesting, is me, But a story from the sixteen hundreds, I think
for me is fascinating. But yeah, it's just it's clearly the same animal.
I don't think they're quite as big as what we get in North America.
But then again, I don't know that all in North America. They're
all the same size. You know the description like the skunk, the skunk
ape. I don't think it can. As you do get the same stories
of being seven or eight feet tall. I think they're generally six and a
half type. And that's just what you would expect of a diverse animal population.
You grow as big as your environment allows you to, what food resources
are available, how much water, how long do you go in between having
the ability to eat, and so that doesn't that's what I would expect to
see if everywhere, across every single place where a big foot could be,
they're always all eight foot tall, that would be a problem. So natural
diversity is what you would see in a healthy animal population as well. It's
probably like adaptations and stuff too. I mean, you know, if a
certain species is grown to that climate, they're all going to evolve to a
certain size, to a depth. Do that. And if you're you're inbreeding
with the amount of creatures that are in that area, you're also going to
you know, highlight certain adaptations within height or hair color and stuff as well.
So definitely makes sense. And it's been we think humans have been here.
You know, we're going to be wrong, but you know, the
oldest sites that we get, we think it's roughly ten thousand, but we
keep finding stuff to go oop, so I think it's a little older than
that. And we of course as anthropologists, you want to talk about being
stuck in a paradigm. But you know, they walked across the land bridge.
We don't really consider voting, you know, what's how do we know
they didn't vote? And they were weren't down here a lot longer seventeen thousand
years ago, But we know Bigfoot's can't vote, so we know Bigfoot had
to walk over the bearing Land Bridge from China at some point. We don't
know when, but since the stories seem very embedded, it's it's likely that
it was about the same time period massive waves of humans came across as well,
because he's following food too, you know, I don't know if he
hat eight megafauna, but he's eating something and you don't know that you're leaving
China and you're going to the Americas, you don't know that. You're just
following the resources as they're plentiful, and then you're not finding any other people
that can fight you over the food, so you just keep going, you
know. And so that's we think that's the same thing as how Bigfoot came
across, and we don't have I don't I haven't dived into traditional Chinese stories
of you know, where they like pigeons, where they're bigfoots everywhere, and
so they were they were like, no, you leave, go go,
go go across that very language because there's so many of you. I mean,
I don't know, we don't know. Well, we'll probably never be
able to know that until we capture one and get a DNA and get it
all figured out of origins, and how many do you need to have to
have a stable population. You know, there's a lot of unanswered questions that
it's going to take a very long time to find the answers to absolutely when
you're looking into the cultural and stuff of these stories, and that do they
do they tell that they have their own language? Do they are they able
to communicate with these creatures or well for North America, of course, a
good story you have to have you have to have some amount of that of
talking or else it doesn't really help the story. But Condor talks, eagle
talks, you know, all the antichiotes a notorious talker. Usually he's one
of those, you know, he's he's a friend to some, almost a
god to some, and an enemy to many more. And so for the
the it's hard to sort out. Does that mean you think it can talk
and have his own language or is this just part of the story to tell
the story what you're trying to get across. And so I think that they
think. I mean, I've had an elder one time tell me that he
or well another elder told me what the elder said, because the elder head
or who passed away, and he said that it was a tribe reviving some
of their dances, and so they were drumming and they were doing, you
know, trying to get it backstarted what the dance was. And this elder
saw the bigfoot watching what was going on. So he went over and he
said he talked to him and said, why are you here, And the
bigfoot told him I haven't heard this music. I haven't heard this sound in
a very long time, and I miss it, and I just want to
sit here and listen to this. He didn't say drum, but this beat
because I miss it, you know, I haven't heard it. And so
the elder said, he told it, all right, that's fine. You
can stay and watch and listen, but don't get any further than where you
are. You're not allowed to come any closer because this is the one day
my computer decides the yelling creatures basically, don't come any closer because I don't
trust you around these children, and if any of our children show up missing
after this, I'm coming after you. And so the elder let him stay
and he sat there and listened to the music and closed his eyes and kind
of nodded to the beat, and then when they were done dancing, he
got up and left. And so in that case, there was a language
communication, but I've had another elder tell me that it was communication based on
behavior. That So, he had went deer hunt and he had a smaller
deer and it was over his shoulder, and he was walking back to the
reservation and it was near dusk, and he kind of had his head down
because he was tired. It was a long walk, and this trail actually
exists, and so it's one of those trails that comes off the reservation and
goes on to national forests, and it's a very very old trail. And
he was nearly home and all of a sudden, the big foot was in
his path, and he was like, oh, and so this is a
mewalk story. So the mee walk. You never look a big foot in
the eye. You keep your head down so that you don't make eye contact
because that's very disrespectful to the big foot directly, and that's a good way
to die. So essentially he put his head down and then he goes,
well, I'll just walk around him. So he stepped to the side just
to get out of the big Foot's way, and the big foot blocked his
path. He stepped as well over and and blocked his path and goes,
well, I don't know what I'm doing here, and he goes, okay,
so now I'm gonna go the other direction. And so he started to
go step over to go around the other direction, and the bigfoot blocked his
way again, and he could feel him breathing. He could you know,
He said, he could feel the you know, the just his chest going
in and out, and he was getting hot air on top of his head,
and he said it was just could tell he was not going to get
out of there with that deer. And so he was like, well,
all right, So he took the deer off his shoulder and put it on
the ground, and bigfoot moved out of his way and let him continue on.
And so then he went home and he went and told his father what
had happened. And his father said, oh, I'm really sorry. I
forgot to tell you that we owe the bigfoot that lives in this area deer
every year, so you just paid our debts, So thanks for that.
And he was all like, what, you know, nobody ever told me
that before. And so anyway he was and he's telling me the story he
had to be an is. Oh, I'm gonna say late sixties, early
seventies, and he had had later on than had another bigfoot encounter. Anyway,
he was telling me this, and he goes, so, now,
I always make sure I tell everybody, you know, if you're gonna walk
on this path and you have a deer, don't expect to come home with
it, because we owe this bigfoot one a year, and so I just
always enjoy that story. But it was it was a communication through action.
So he the bigfoot didn't say to him, put that deer down. He
was just like, I'm gonna make it obvious to you that you're going to
put that deer down. And so so different. I think there's you know,
I don't know that any other animal you would be able to tell,
you know, outside of the raging bear. I guess, you know,
get out of here. It's pretty clear. But I mean to be able
to behave in a manner to convey a point or you know, what you
want done. I think is would be unique to a big foot that the
only other intelligent animal would be humans that could do that. So it was
you know, to me, it's very fascinating, very interesting when when you're
talking about Bigfoot like disregard like personal feelings and stuff like that. But you
know, some people have had these orbs encounters and other like paranormal encounters with
these creatures, and I find it interesting. Do you have any stories of
the natives and stuff where do they have an explanation for these lights and orbs
in the woods and is that associated for them with Bigfoot or is it its
own phenomenon. I have never heard of a Native American ever talking or mentioning
orbs under any circumstance. And I've been plenty of different places with plenty of
different tribal people where that is not something that's ever come up. And so
I think that's a phenomen not unto itself. I'm not a believer in that.
I think that, you know, there's no reason to think that.
I do remember once when I was in the field with Cliff, who else
was there, Monica Rollins, Brian Brown. We were up at Scuoka Meadow
and they couldn't understand it was Brian Brown couldn't understand these what he thought were
orbs in this location, and so I went there, we said, okay,
let's go back at nighttime and let's see what it is that you're seeing.
And they turned out to be fireflies. He just because of where he
was from, he didn't ever see one. And that's you know, so
I think there's always the logical explanations. You know, not everybody can know
everything there is to know, But as a scientist myself, I feel that
there's a duty to just and you need to investigate what it is you think
you are seeing and then try to have a logical, logical explanation of what
it truly is, because it's it's pretty easy to see something you don't know
what it is and then lead to your own explanation of what it is,
versus going up to it, seeking it out, trying to figure out what
it is. And and I wish more people would do that instead of just
jump at the first thing that pops in your head, because there's there's always
some logical explanation or earthly explanation for what it is that you're experiencing. And
maybe it is weird, maybe it's something common and you just never saw it
before. That that's how my mind works. I don't I don't go to
the crazy stuff right off the bat, because you know, that's just not
how my mind works. And I'm not saying, because of the disclaimer that
I'm saying people are crazy. I just say times people go to they've heard
of these orbs, and so their mind just goes there instead of just really
seeking it out and going act it's just a stupid Fireflyn and I just happened
to be at the right place at the right time and just far enough away
where it looked creepy. But you know, I know, I've talked to
a lot of guests on the show, and it's, you know, because
you're out there looking for Bigfoot and then you see these lights or these orbs
or something, you automatically assume that it's related. And it absolutely could be,
or it absolutely could be completely unrelated on just this other phenomenon or whatever
happens. Yeah, and I tend to go with tribal people have been here
a long longer we have, and if they don't talk about it as being
something that's related, or even they've never even mentioned the concept of it,
I don't see why, you know, they're all of a sudden here.
I mean, so you know that doesn't seem very large. Seems like whatever's
been here has been here the entire time. And so the bit of course,
you know, there are things about nay people talk about that I have
no explanation for whatsoever, you know, and so you know, could we
go both ways, but they don't talk about orbs. So so for me,
it's kind of a closed door. Very good. So earlier you mentioned
that they were talking about the creatures smacking the trees to make the wood knocks
and stuff, and it's always been kind of debated whether it's a wood knock
or a mouth noise or clapping and stuff. Have they actually seen them do
this or how how do they explain that that Actually there's several tribes that have
seen it and describe it, and they describe the Bigfoot as as having a
club and that that's what he uses. And it's not always a tree either.
So one tribe in particular was pretty adamant that sometimes it's a tree,
but it's also the ground that he's striking the ground and making those kinds of
noises and so, and it's never a good sound. I mean, they
talk about it's it's it's a way of it's not meant for us, it's
meant for the other bigfoot. So it's a communication tool quick to not reveal
yourself, but let who your other bigfoots in the area know that there's humans
here. And so oftentimes they don't specifically say it, but it's usually you
know, if you hear that strike, it's you know, you basically go
back where you came from kind of thing. You know, you just don't.
It's it's a you know what it is, doesn't necessarily moore the big
foot meant to let you know that I'm in the area. It's not a
territorial thing. It's more of, hey, hey, bigfoot John, there's
another there's a human here, just letting you know, so that you don't
just pop out in the middle somewhere do something. And so. But it's
also the whistling, you know, the whistling is never that is definitely a
never a good thing. And in that case, the bigfoot is communicating on
purpose to try to lure you out. And so it's kind of they do
one thing for themselves and another thing on purpose to try to trick humans into
coming outside. So basically all these you know, researchers and investigtors that are
going out doing wood knocks to get communication or basically warding off these creatures because
they're telling them, hey, we're out here, stay away well. And
our woodknocks are never that good. I mean, I've only ever heard like,
we don't really do it all that afternoon because we've only ever really successfully
done one that actually sounded any good. Would they do? We do have
this little wood knocker type tool that makes a funny noise, but yeah,
it's it's I mean, we, I guess on occasion, have had a
good response before, but most of the wood knots I have heard were totally
I wasn't doing anything. I was just sitting there being myself. And I
had one one time that it was the loudest thing I ever heard in my
life, and I swore that bigfoot just had to be right there. And
I turned my head as quick as possible, and I'm looking through the things,
and I said, he has to be right there because it was just
like just like right there. And in that case, the Bigfoot's in and
aria X area. They have they don't like certain males humans, human males
at all. They hate Darryl Collier. I'm just telling you're flat out.
You could ask anybody, and they are in particular would have certain reactions to
certain individuals. And so one of our big, one of our members who
I was in Arias for in twenty thirteen, I went to Arias for three
weeks while Bob stayed here at the house and took care of our kids,
and so it was just me and I was just you know, had to
rely on who my teammates were, and they in particular disliked the team leader
we had on that I think he was the second week I was there,
and every time he did anything, they were on him like they would you
know, they just did not like him. And so did that day when
I was sitting on the porch broad day, like smack just reverberated. My
ears hurt, and I'm like, oh no, you know, it's right
over there, and just like i'd say five minutes maybe at the best,
I could hear his car coming. And so it was clear to me that
they were And every time every time he went into town, they'd knock.
Every time he came back that he'd they'd knock. It was like they just
really did not like him, and they were letting the other bidfits know,
Oh that guy he hates back, you know kind of thing. Never never
did it. When I left or come back, they didn't care what am
I to them. I'm just this little tiny thing that they could hit with
a rock and knock her out. So I always thought that was interesting,
but that was yeah, that's that's when we when we would knock. I
don't know that we're conveying necessarily what we want to versus when we use uh
call blasts. I think that those have been fairly successful. We have one
one big foot in Tawanna County who always reacts to the Ohio how he just
hates that thing and he will holler back almost instantaneous. I mean, he
hates that thing. And so unfortunately that area was burned in the Rim fire
in twenty thirteen. So it's been disruptive, but it'll I think it'll come
back to where we could elicit the same response. So as far as other
vocals, when you're talking about that, do you do the native tribes have
any thoughts or opinions on like the whoops, what are those conveying. I've
never had anybody ever bring that up with me. I have talked to several
elders who were aware of the Siah sounds had had heard them, and that
their reaction was quite entertaining in the sense of if I had heard that,
I would just left, I would just go away, you know. Just
that was and I didn't really get them to tell me, is this something
your tribe talks about? They were just like morrified by the whole thing,
and so I didn't. I don't know that that was successful. I probably
should not have brought that particular time that up because it was just it was
uncomfortable for them very much. So so I haven't I haven't had anybody tell
me outside of the whistling, they'd not brought up other types of sounds that
they think of big footmkes outside of the wood knocking or that type of thing.
Nothing like the gibberish or you know that, that stuff, and you
have to kind of think about it. I mean, how would I don't
even know how necessarily unless you saw the bigfoot making that noise. I don't
know that that. I'm sure at some point over ten thousand years and native
person saw a bigfoot making that noise or whatever it is, but I don't
know, it may not been important enough to pass on. I mean the
stories that we have. You know that most tribes only they had a time
of telling stories, so you didn't necessarily let me go back. So stories
are critical to tribal life because that's how you pass on tribal knowledge. You
know, show you want to teach your kids, who will then teach your
grandchildren, who will then teach your great grandchildren. This important knowledge that the
tribe holds. Because when I'm gone, I can't tell you if you have
a headache, this is the plant you need to pick and grind and take.
I have to teach you that as as you grow or else, you
know, because you have to do it more than one time. It isn't
I taught you two plus two equals for once so that I don't have to
teach you that again. Now. It's it's just like how we learn now
we have We get told things multiple times, and then even then sometimes not
we forget pieces of it because we're humans. That's the way it is.
I I often think about that kind of stuff and like, who was the
first person who ate this and decided this was good dat versus this mushroom over
here that made you crazy? You know, and but it's you pass it
along. You know that this is bad, this is good, and every
time you see it, this is bad, this is good, and then
then you know you keep doing on. And most tribes talk about there was
those storytelling where you're teaching happened when you're bad at the village. So it's
usually winter storytelling. You don't don't not together as a group, in a
large group anyway, usually in other time periods, because that's when you're getting
your subsistence. Of course, it's different for everybody. You know in Pacific
Northwest and Washington. When you had the salmon runs, of course you had
enough food for two weeks, you had the whole year's worth of food.
But you're still getting berries and other stuff. So so these stories when when
you talk about it, I know, I hear a lot of skeptics talk
about when they're just stories. Indians made stuff up and all this really derogatory
type thing. And it's just like you really think that these tribal people that
have been here for ten thousand plus years made stuff up to entertain themselves.
They I mean, it just it's not a logical way of thinking about it.
They wouldn't be here and have survived all that time without the knowledge of
how to live on the land like they did successfully for that long of a
period. You know, it's it's when when we came, we disrupted their
ability to get to those resources to farm the land or or you know,
subsist off the land. You know, that's how that happened. And so
and I think that's one of those European concepts as well. You know,
when I saw an Indian, he'd look like, you couldn't survive without us,
and blah blah. Well that's because you disrupted their normal lifestyle. And
so when they tell stories, you only also only have so much time to
tell the story. And so I think certain things that didn't really matter or
you know, maybe didn't get conveyed or got forgotten. So I'm sure native
people saw them, and and that's of course making the assumption they're the ones
that are making that noise. You know, they didn't. In the Serra
Sands. Ron didn't see them making that noise either. He just was deep
in the wilderness that sounds being made. They just had all this other stuff
happen, and it's you know, it's pretty creepy. And I don't know
if any human that does that, you know, and so we can put
you know, infer that that was a bigfoot. But if Native Americans had
experienced that, it's lost through time. I guess it's the best way to
put it. It wasn't something that was so critical that they repeated it time
and time and time again, versus like whistling, that was life and death,
you know kind of thing. I had to keep telling you this because
cousin Ida got kidnapped and now she's some kind of you know, bride of
you know, Bigfoot John, and we don't want that to happen to you.
So we're really emphasizing when you hear this, do not do this.
It's critical versus you know, I heard, you know, Bigfoot John was
over there doing some gibberish stuff and I don't know what he said. And
not don't only Chara because it didn't have anything to do with me. It
might be that kind of situation where it just wasn't important enough, or it
was conveyed and it's been forgotten in time. But but I have never heard
a tribal person if they talk about talk, they're talking about this. Bigfoot
told me this, and it has always conveyed to me that it was with
words, it was in their native language. So have you ever had any
stories about like the stick structures or anything of why those are made or what
they mean. I haven't, but do talk about, you know, he
lives in the forest at night, and they have mentioned that he makes beds.
I haven't heard of anything like that. There was a structure or anything
about. They never called them ness or anything like that. They just said
he makes beds, you know, and you knew when you saw one and
what it was, you know, kind of thing, and it always usually
had something to do with a bear, that you could tell the difference between
a bear bed and a bigfoot bed, and and and and usually there was
They have this old saying which I have come to enjoy and believe myself,
that if you see one, there's more than one. That they're rarely by
themselves, and so usually you're you're if you saw the one, there's probably
something right back there over there kind of watching you as well, and so
don't do stupid things. So but yeah, nothing like stick structors that have
come across to me as that's what they're describing, you know. And sometimes
that that's that's a different thing too, because we use things like stick structures,
and to native person, I don't know that they that I don't know
that that would be to them what it is to us necessarily, you know.
But they don't talk about making like any kind of like other's kind of
symbols that market territory or anything like that. But they did. Most of
that was based on knowledge. Like several tribes told me that you had when
you went to pick berries, this was your berry patch, the human berry
patch, and that over there is his. Don't take berries from that one.
I'm pointing like you can see me a point, but I talk with
my hands, but essentially that this was our resource, that's his resource.
Don't take from his resource because it will cause problems. And there's a lot
of tribes that have those types of things like this is where he gets his
fish, this is where we get our fish, this is where we do
this, we do that, and we don't. It was like they come
to a piece you know, this this, and tribes do talk about that.
They you know, have treaties or agreements with the bigfoots that lived in
an area, and that there were times where they had to purposely kill one
because he wasn't behaving himself, he was taking children for food or doing something
you should be doing. They would and they'd say, hey, we've had
enough of that. One of the very famous ones is luck Lovelock Cave in
Nevada, where the bigfoots were taking the the children so much sort that they
went up to him and they said, hey, you're gonna have to knock
this off because you're killing our children and we don't like and if you don't
do what, we're going to kill you. And they did it again,
and so they trapped him in that love Lock cave and set it on put
some brushkins, and they even were so nice. They said, okay,
one more warning, really, if you promise not to eat our children,
will let you out, and the bit and said no, I mean you're
going to continue to eat eat the children. So they set the brush on
fire and killed all of them, and all of them so they were that
was, you know, And there's several stories like that where the washow around
Lake Tapo area has a very similar story where they said, hey, you
know, we don't like you doing this, stop doing it, and the
big fat said no, and so they had a war, and the story
goes, the tribe talks about it, we have bows and arrows, all
you guys got his rocks and sticks? Who do you think it's gonna win
that? And they went, they want it, and the Washow is so
much so that they they this is the most random thing that's ever happened to
me. I was sitting in my at my desk in my office and one
of my Washow elders called and he goes, you know, I just want
to let you know because it's time for me to tell you this, that
you have three bigfoot in your territory and the one lives over that basically in
Calaveras County is a jerk and this is his name, and he's not a
nice one and I'm just letting you And I said, well, oh,
I said what about the one and towel, because oh no, they're great
and I went okay, and then he just hung up, and I was
like, I didn't I didn't write down the nature gave me because like,
well, I couldn't have spelled it any before I wanted to. That reminds
me I need to talk to him because he's retired now, and so I
think I could probably get more information out of him that, but it was
just the most random thing that he just called me up and goes, you
you need to know this and that one over there, and it's it's interesting
because I've heard about this jerk in Calaveras County now several times that they even
have it. He has his own name because he's just a mean bigfoot and
basically they don't like him and they try to stay away from him. And
so anyway, I always just thought that was pretty funny that I don't know
how I got on this subject, but anyway, it was in regards to
beds, I guess. But no, they don't talk about anything. It's
it's if it and maybe it's not my time to learn it. I mean,
that's that's so a fair statement too. Maybe all this time they know
they talk gibberish or whatever you want to call that language, but it's not
I don't get I even earned it yet to get that kind of information.
So because I think technically I'm just sure I'm officially the age of an elder.
So maybe, well good luck to you. I don't know if I
want to know. Yeah, so to maybe change topics and maybe not.
I'm not sure, but I've I've heard stories up in our area Wisconsin,
Minnesota, and Michigan area, and I'm gonna tell you a little bit about
what I've heard, and I want to see if you've heard anything similar or
if this is something totally different. So up by us we have what is
known as the red haired giants, and these are like the miners. They
were supposed to like mine copper and or and stuff out of the land.
And they're supposed to have a double roll of teeth, so they have two
sets of teeth and said just the one, which is what I've heard,
and they had six fingers according to legend and stuff. And these red haired
giants went to war with some of the native tribes around here, and the
native tribes ended up killing them all off. So have you heard any of
these stories? Does that match anything you've heard? And do you think that
those are the same as these big foot creatures. I have heard that story.
I did not hear that they had double road teeth or six fingers.
It was just the red haired giants that went to war and that they got
all killed off and the the I don't know why an animals have two road
teeth. I mean that kind of I don't know to make you sure you
fion, I guess if yeah, yeah, they tear into flesh like like
a snow business. But this is not shark week, so just from the
Yeah, sorry, that's okay, But no, I hadn't heard those particular
details, but that you know, different you know, storytellers might have different
details, so I don't doubt it. But I always understood those to be
bigfoot. That was what that's my understanding is that that is a is a
bigfoot. So so do you have any stories, like I said, like
these things were supposed to be mining copper, you know, in in our
area and stuff, So do you know of any of the I mean they
have minds that they found where these things were supposedly that these minds were made
and worked by the red haired giants, And I mean this is all local
like up here and stuff like books on it of of our area and that,
so I don't know. Well, it's it's very interesting in the sense
because I don't know what they would be using copper for, and so big
it is an animal, and like all animals, do you seek out what
you need to survive? And I can't unless it was like something like a
salt mine. I think they wouldn't have any use for minerals because that's a
very human concept of something valuable to us. Why would copper be valuable to
or? And you can't eat it, it doesn't provide any nutrients, and
I can you know unless it's in a different format. But most tribes that
I have talked to, if if a bigfoot had a human product, it
was because they got it through trading with Native Americans. And so bigfoot is
pretty universal a very good hunter, and it was not unusual for bigfoot to
bring to a tribe a deer and in exchange for that, you gave them
something like a basket, or you gave them like they could not process.
This is actually a really good story that the tribe in the Two Indian Reservation
tribe, they had a story that you never ever turned your back when So
a very staple food here in California is acorns and you have to pound it
up and then leach it to get the bitterness out of it. But and
then once you do that, it's got all kinds and nutrition and it it's
just a really heavy in proteins and just a valuable food resource. And they
would always said, never have your back while you're milling to giants kia growths,
because giants kias, which are like been redwoods, that's Bigfoot's territory.
And he would hear you pounding the acorn and then he'll wait until you're you're
leaching the and then he'll steal it because he loves it. So that was
also a common thing that was traded, were these because he can't process it.
He doesn't know how to pound it and then leach it and for how
long to leach it, And so that was something they would trade for a
lot, as well as pine nuts that were available, because he didn't know
how to which ones were good to eat not to eat, and how to
get it out of the shell. You know, he did wasn't as dexterious,
a dep terious couldn't couldn't put his fingers together to get them that out.
And so so that was what they would say, is that if he
had this, usually it was because of trade, and occasionally he would steal
things because he thought it was cute and training and stuff, but usually it
was a gift, you know that that I'm gonna in exchange for this.
I'm gonna give you this, and you're gonna give me that. And so
unless the Bigfoots were doing that for humans where they were milling the copper and
using it to exchange to the local tribe, that's the only way I would
see that working is that they were doing it on the behalf of humans to
get something out of the humans. And I have not heard that as being
a that the tribes were trading for that. So I don't know that's that's
the only way I can figure that he would that he would do, but
they would probably would be pretty good. I've often hoped we can figure this
out so that we can, you know, get some of those and put
them on the front line for Dallas Cowboys or maybe they can win a game
once and all. Very good, very good. Yeah, And you couldn't
be right with that line of thinking and stuff, because I think here in
Wisconsin we had supposedly there's stories of these giant skeletons that were buried with the
natives down by the Madison area and stuff, and if they were trading or
something with these people, that could be why they were doing it. Well,
yeah, and there are stories like I can't remember the name of the
tribe right this minute, but when they were being moved along the Trelo teers
to their current location, the tribe talked about the Bigfoot followed them, and
the tribe kept telling them, no, you don't, you don't want to
come with us, and they said, we can't live without you, your
ours and we're yours. They very close relationship. And they said, okay,
fine, but you can't camp near us. You have to camp away
so that the white people can't see you. And so they talked about being
able to see their fires just outside, so they knew that they were still
there and still going to follow them. And but that's how they came to
that location, was that they walked with them from their original lands. And
so I can't remember the name of the tribe that talked about that, but
but anyway, so that's a that's it's always possible. I mean, the
yogt or the Tuleenian an elder soul can't go on to heaven and less Bigfoot
comes and takes that soul there. So he's critical to their survival. And
they have a song that talks about that that only women can sing. But
it's he's critical to them. So I can see very much that, like
I said in the beginning, some tribes he's awful. That's giants, cannibals,
and monsters. That's why where I got that title was to some he's
just a friendly giant. To others, he's a cannibal that eats our kids,
and then he's a monster to others. So it's I think those relationships
are based on personalities, just like we have personalities. I think every I
mean, my cat has more personality than some humans I've met lately. So
it's very possible that some bigfoot grew would be dependent or have a have a
very happy existence with their local tribe versus I think in other locations you just
had some bad behaving bitfoots that were in conflict with the tribes and so,
but I would think for your story, if those red haired giants were providing
the tribe with something, then why would you go to war with them?
So usually you don't go to war with a friend. And you know that
that sounds to me, that comes across to me as you're an enemy and
we once you gone out out of this territory, and much so that they
didn't just kill one. They killed them all. And I do believe that
goes back to your story of the stealing the children and the women that they
said that they went to war with the red hair giants. Now, yeah,
and it's a really interesting Well, of course there's nobody if if they
had lost the war. I don't know that that story, you know that
that would make it this far, you know, because you don't they tell
stories of your defeat. So we only get the winds we were. Yeah,
we wiped them all out, not just the one. So history is
always told by the winners. Yea, written by the line, not the
lamb. I've we're coming up on the end of the hour here and I
have two more questions for you really quick. Have you heard anything about you
You kind of mentioned there of them using fire? Have have that? Has
that come across a lot? Because I heard when like I think you kind
of touched on that too, is when the white man came the tribes and
stuff told them to stop using fire because that's how they can find you.
The tribes do talk about their their ability to use fire. Yeah, they
they They're trying to think of this one that I can't remember quite the whole
story. But yeah, that they cook their food that they eat. They
don't eat Robby that but that's not universal, that's that's isolated to just a
few tribes. But yeah, that's they do talk about him being able to
use fire. Yeah, it always comes across use fire. I've never asked
do they make fire? Use fire? You know, something else is going
on and you're just carrying it around with you versus I assume that they that
they assumed that he could make fire, not just use it. But yeah,
fires, Well, I have heard like the tribes and stuff used to
have used to carry fire with them, like from whenever they were on the
move and stuff they could carry like burning embers and stuff because it was hard
to restart it. So well, I mean all tribes have a way of
making fire, and I've tried to do the local and it's just easier to
carry some moss. Yeah, they have a look, they have a pouch
that was known as the fire where they would keep you know, an ember
or a cold and that it would just help it go faster. But yeah,
they have multiple ways of making fire themselves human right, And you mentioned
like there was a song about that women could only sing about you know the
big stuff. Is there anywhere online or websites or CDs or anything that you
can go to find these songs, these Bible songs and more information on this.
No, I am the I have recorded it and I was given permission
to record it, and if you ever, I actually have several recordings that
I'm the only person who has it because I got permission to do it,
and I do when I give talks. It's one of the songs that I
do play because it's such a beautiful songs and it's really funny because probably one
of the most powerful things that ever. I've had a lot of powerful things,
but one day, so that's it's it belongs to the yoke. It's
Julie River song. And one day I was at this place we called wakaloo
Hepio and it's a campground, but we it's built around a village, so
there's a Native American village there and we have the important parts all fenced off
from the public, and the public doesn't want to have anything to do with
it because it's also kind of creepy looking because we haven't cleared out the brush
or anything in there, so it's hard to walk in and one of my
very special elders named ar Veda had had a bigfoot experience. I don't know,
like at that time, probably would have been twenty years from that time
period, and it's probably been another ten years since then, says, you
know, thirty years in the past. And I was there and I had
just walked up to her and she closed her eyes and she sang that song
and I was just like, whoa, why did you do that? You
know kind of thing, because I recognized it. I can sing it.
I mean, I've heard that, I played it enough, I can sing
it. And she just looked up and she looked at me and she goes,
I don't know. I just felt like you needed that, and it
came just came to me and I just went I don't know, and it
was just it was so powerful. I wanted to cry because it was just
like and I don't remember now why I needed it, but I did need
something at that moment. I don't I don't recall now what the issue was,
but I was something sad had happened to me, and I was just
like in a bummer place and it just filled me with I don't know,
it just filled filled me with God telling me you're you're on a good path,
don't let stuff bother you. And it probably was something to do with
Bigfoot that somebody had, you know, read me the riot act, or
wasn't nice to me, or something somewhere in the in the in the cyber
world of real human beings that can talk bad to each other and not feel
bad about it, something to that effect. I don't remember, but I
just always just thought that it was that she thought she had never heard the
song before. She's she said it was it came to her and overwhelmed her.
And since it's a Bigfoot song, well, Chris, we're still here,
so it wasn't meant to take us anywhere, but it was. I
think it was just a way of communicating to me that it's okay, you
know. And maybe bigfoots the one who sent it. I don't know.
I don't know, but I just remember when I got home, I told
Bob that, and his whole face went, you know, oh my god,
you know kind of thing. Because there's no reason for her to have
known that song, because she's not Yoka, She's she's Mawalk. So that's
really cool, good old creepy story to send it down. Awesome. Again,
I appreciate your stories and all your hard work and everything that you're doing
out there. I think it's amazing that you know, you're you're actively trying
to keep these stories alive, to share them and treat them with respect that
they need. And yeah, and it's important because cod was really really,
really really hard on tribal elders across across the States, and so you know
people I and I don't need to tell that to tribal people. They know
how important their elders are. But it's it's it's sad and heartbreaking at the
same time because I know I wish I had done more and the time I
had with them, but I learned other things too. You know, I
didn't just learn. We didn't always talk about grip foot. You know.
Part of my job was to to listen to them about all kinds of things,
and so I know I know more about what plants not to eat and
to eat, and tasted more things that I would never ever ever tried to
eat before, but I got I got that knowledge now. So very cool.
Well, I appreciate all your work and I just want to say thank
you for everything that you've done well. Thank you for having me on.
I enjoyed this, it was are a lot of fun. Absolutely, thank
you so much. Can you real quick just so everybody where they can find
the North American Woodape Conservancy and the stuff that you've done there, because we
barely touched on that and anything else. Any other webplits that you have or
work that you've done. Sure where woodape dot org and so you can visit.
There's all kinds of neat sounds, lots of If you want to know
more about my experiences, they have the icought Oacheetah. I've got the name
of it, but it's a very large, free to download paper on experiences
our teams have had. It's wachitazial name. But uh there's also the tag
seven paper on there if you want to learn more about that. If you
want to pick up my book, it's available through Hancock House. It's an
out of print so this is a second print and it's not as quite as
pretty as the first one, but it is what it is. And other
than that, you know, if you ever want to get a hold of
me, can find me on Facebook. I don't I don't have my own
website or anything. Like that, because I just don't have the time to
do any of that stuff anymore. Right, They tell you you're post have
lots of time the older you get, but it just seems like I get
more and more busy with things that I need to do than when I was,
you know, fourteen, So like I had a lot of free time
when I was fourteen, I have no free time now. So awesome.
Do you have any conventions coming up here after August that you're going to be
speaking out or anything else? I know the My next one is at the
end of August, so and it's pretty vocal to Tsawami County. So so
I have anything else on the books, mostly because I'm busy filming. I'm
on a regular on a show called Proof. The Proof is out there.
It's on Friday nights on the History Channel at seven o'clock Pacific, so that
would make it at ten o'clock Eastern time. Anyway, I'm I have two
more filming sessions I need to do with them, So that's kind of takes
up most of my time lately. So this we're in our we're filming for
the fourth season now, so and Cliff Barrickman is on it as well.
Meldrum makes an appearance once in a while. There's a lot of good people
on there that and I really really enjoy the show because they let me say
whatever. They don't have that disclaimer that says whatever Kathy says, don't it
doesn't thats because I'm pretty I'm usually how do I put this, I'm usually
the the reasonable debunker, I guess, and I get a variety of different
stuff. It's really kind of the only ones. I told them they had
to stop giving me a creepy clown stuff because I don't care for that,
and I think they took me a little bit too seriously when I said I
don't want any more UFOs don't give me that stuff. But I'm I get
a variety, so it's it's a lot of fun, very good. Definitely
checked out out as well. All right, anything else you want to add
before we wrap this up? Thank you, Thank you so much for being
on the show today. Thank you all right, guys, that is our
show for this week. Happy Labor Day, and again, unfortunately today's episode
was prerecorded. But if you have anything, shoot Kathy a message or leave
it in the comments here, and uh, you know, we can check
that out back or check back at that and see what we got later.
But until next time, guys, I would tell you who's gonna be on
the next show, but I actually don't have any scheduled for the next show
at this time, so it'll be a surprise for both of us. So
until then, I'll see you on the edge can be one