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Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
JUFO Radio. I am your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I am here
with a beloved, my beloved news dude,

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Martin lovable willis ah so much better
than some of the other things are.

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Yeah. Well, you know,
you told me about a listener beating

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up on you a bit, and
so I wanted to to let that listener

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know that not everybody feels that way. In fact, most feel the opposite.

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That's true. That listener sucks if
you ask me, and we know

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they're not listening. Well, that's
what's funny. These people threaten not to

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listen anymore, but I think a
lot of times they are listening still,

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Well they want to listen to here
if we're going to talk about them one

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more time. Yeah, so maybe
now they're not listening, But if they

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stop listening, they're going to miss
a good show. So that's their own

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problem. That's true. And you
know why my guest. I'm very excited

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about my guest. My guest tonight
used to work out with me at Open

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Minds and I've always been a fan
of his work, and so I'm really

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excited to hatch up with him.
And that guest is can you guess who

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it is? Can you guess the
guest it? Uh? God, I

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don't know if it would be Jason, but it would be the guy that

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does a video. No, Michael
Shratt, Oh, Michael Shratt. Yeah,

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so Michael's great. So yeah,
so I'll be talking to him.

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I haven't even recorded it. Usually
by the time we talk, I've already

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recorded the interview, but not in
this case. I'll be talking to him

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in a few hours here. But
uh yeah, he's still here in the

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Phoenix area. And in fact,
I want to work with him on a

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project because this is something that I'm
I want to do. I want to

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build a big model of the Phoenix
Lights craft. That always great at doing

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models, right, Yeah, he's
the master. So I'm working with him

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at least he's providing that the sketches
and everything, and so I'm going to

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build something like that. I'm also
actually working on like a little guidebook,

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a little book. It's kind of
a reference for the Phoenix Lights. Who

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saw what win where type of thing, what the skeptics say, so people

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can kind of have all of the
Phoenix Lights stuff right there. And the

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reason I want to do that is
because Phoenix lights are such a big deal

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here in the Phoenix area and if
you're not aware of what that is.

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In March thirteenth to nineteen ninety seven, many people across the state saw a

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V shaped object essentially fly over,
and then later in the evening they saw

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some lights over the hills. The
later evening ones, I'm convinced were flares.

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Some people don't believe that, most
do. Most researchers, you know,

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can see that those were flares.
However, the other objects seen over

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the state are are are still unknown
and in fact, you know, I've

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been reading a lot of the skeptics
stuff and to see if there's anything there,

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and there's a couple interesting things they
have to say, but really they

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have no, in my opinion,
compelling argument to explain, you know,

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what people said they saw. You
know, I spoke with Peter Davenport a

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few months ago when he was telling
me that when that happened, he got

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all these reports which were quite amazing
right off the bat, and he was

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saying that one of the people that
saw it was suggesting that it could be

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miles wide plural not yet. You
know, a lot of people said it

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was like could be a mile wide, but it said peak to peak,

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it could have been up to eight
miles wide, which is I mean,

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anything you know, more than one
hundred feet wide is pretty amazing anyway.

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Yeah, and for it to be
you know, floating around no sound and

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all that stuff. Yeah, that
that is one of in my book anyway,

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this is one of the top top
five sightings. Actually. Yeah,

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So we'll see mass Sightings when it
comes out. You could see if you

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think that if you still feel that
way after reading all the skeptics stuff,

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because I'm gonna you know, I
want to be fair to both sides.

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But at least thus far, you
know, my opinion has not tipped to

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it. It's certainly been explained personally. But we'll see. I think I

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have a little bit more research and
I need to contact some of these skeptics,

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but so far I'm not convinced.
But I also wanted to give an

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update to my last guest, Chris
Cogswell, who was awesome. He is

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no longer with move On, surprisingly, which is funny because a lot of

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the show was about how he's knew
the new director of research with mofon.

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But of course, as some of
the listeners know, there's been so much

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controversy with mof ON lately, and
you know that's that's what happened. I

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guess essentially, I'll put it out
there because he did explain it, and

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you can go on his social media
and see this. But there was a

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guy named John Ventry. I don't
think I've had him on my show,

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but he was a state director out
in like Massachusetts or something like that,

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No, Pennsylvania, sorry, and
he has gone on these racist tirades.

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He's just he gets on these tirades. He's gone after Mark d' antonio,

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frequent guest that we've had, and
I've even had to scold him. I

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think I even had to kick him
out of our forum. But because he

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went on this racist high rate,
there was a big upheaval and move On

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was like defending him, and it
got real bad to where people were leaving

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and people were threatening to leave him. Finally they said, okay, we've

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let him go. Well, Chris
found out that in fact, he even

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though he doesn't have the title of
state directory, still running things and involved

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with the running of move On,
and he just said, I can't,

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you know, I can't, and
so he left and I don't blame him,

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because any organization should be able to
identify that as an issue and really

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that. Yeah, I mean,
it's an unacceptable behavior like that, and

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he and he never really apologized.
He kind of doubled down and would defend

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you know, what he was saying, and it was so very, very

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bad. So it's unfortunately I can't
blame Chris at all. And it's actually

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eye opening even to me, because
I feel deceived that we were told,

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you know, Ventry was let go, he's no longer part of the organization,

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and here we find out which there
have been rumors to this effect,

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and and I kind of thought,
well, they're just rumors. I don't

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know if that's true. You know, I can't believe that. And Jan

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and the people at MOUF would would
keep him around after all that, but

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apparently they have, so don't know
what the reasoning would be. Yeah,

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it's very unfortunate. I mean,
he I personally don't feel he's one of

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his researches is not that great.
He used to admit to that, but

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now he kind of doesn't. And
then when people try to give him constructive

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criticism or or he just you know, gets mean and takes it personal,

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and so it's yeah, I don't
see any I think they would have been

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better off, and they certainly would
have had been able to keep some very

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important and helpful personnel if they would
have just severed ties. But the rumor

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is and and this is just a
rumor. But I don't know, I

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can't see why any other reason.
But the rumor is that he's a he's

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a big donor. Oh that would
be I know, stuff like that.

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I know, I know, just
that. Yeah, you know, it's

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kind of like they're five thousand dollars
inner circle. Yeah, you know,

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for five thousand dollar donors. No, and then calling it the inner circle.

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That was a terrible idea. Getting
donations, of course is very important,

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but you know, using the phrase
as that they use in the news

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all the time, the optics aren't
good when you call it the inner circle.

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Yeah. So yeah, pretty well, boy, it's too bad.

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Yeah, what can you do?
But I'm standing behind Chris one hundred percent.

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I think he's awesome. I think
probably many of you listeners agree after

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listening to him last week, if
you weren't already aware. But a great

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thinker an invaluable addition, he's certainly
not dropping the UFO topic and UFO research.

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So he'll be around and we'll have
him on the show again. And

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so yeah, there we are with
that one, right, okay, And

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otherwise in other news, that is
you, my friend, that's your cue

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to take it away, all right, Well, I want to talk about

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the loss of someone really great that
kind of does what we do actually open

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the door to a lot of us, and that wants to explore unusual things,

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and that's Art Bell. Unfortunately,
on Friday, the thirteenth, last

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week, Art Bell passed away at
only well, I say only it seems

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young, seventy two years old.
I personally, you know, I you

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know, I had not heard of
Art Bell until about twenty eleven, which

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is not that long ago. But
after listening to him, you know,

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I really really enjoyed going back into
his archives of old shows, and I

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just love the way he was so
natural with people and felt so comfort ble

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in front of the mic. And
so anyway, during the peak of the

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nineteen nineties, he had approximately five
hundred North American radio stations airing right from

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his hometown. Peremptory passed away and
he actually became you know, just this

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is on Snopes. Snopes a fact
checking site. When he was thirteen years

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old, he set a Guinness World
Record for broadcasting solo for one hundred and

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sixteen straight hours while working as a
DJ. And that was in Okinawa,

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Japan. So he had he had
quite an interesting life. I know,

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he's a big ham radio guy and
all that. Yeah, he had a

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very young yeah, a couple of
young, very young children. One son

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was only a few months old and
a daughter I think is eight or nine

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or something like that. Young wife. He'll be missed by all. I'm

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sure Heather Wade is stayed along with
Keith Rolan, who have been close to

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him for many years, at least
Keith has. So it's a been a

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cost. Those are the people that
are running his network when he came back,

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and they kind of have been carrying
on for him and and and they'll

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keep on going. They're doing well. They are Yep, they have a

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lot of a lot of listeners and
but you know, Art, I'm sure

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he'll be listened to for many years
to come. There's a lot of you

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know, there's a lot of clips
out there. There's a lot of things

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on YouTube, a lot of his
past shows. I was really excited when

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he came back on Serious XM Radio. For a while, he had kind

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of a habit of like leaving the
air. Yeah, you know, he'd

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be on for a while. He
get upset over something that was a contract

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that was actually about bumper music is
the reason he left Serious. But he

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retired from the Dark Matter Digital Network
Midnight in the Desert. He retired basically

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from that, let Heather Wade take
over, who was his producer at the

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time. And so anyway, he'd
pop on every now and then. It's

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kind of he's just one of these
figures, sort of an iconic figure that

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you kind of think of. Well, I would say that I kind of

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was thinking he'd be around for a
long time. You know. It was

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kind of a kind of a sad
and kind of a sad day. Yeah,

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he'd and you know what. Another
interesting aspect of his background is how

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we got started in the UFO paranormal
stuff. And guess who was his major

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sponsor who helped him do it?
Sponsor? Yeah, yesterday, Yeah,

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Robert Bigelow. Oh, you know, which makes sense because Big Load's out

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of Las Vegas. George Knapp,
I guess was involved. That makes sense

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too. Because George Knapp has been
covering UFOs in the mainstream media out there

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with KLAS for many years, George
Knapp being a gendary in my eyes,

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I'm just such a huge fan of
his. But so I guess they were

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all able to help arrange, you
know, Art Bell getting on the air

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to do this, and and you
know it became important. Like you said,

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he was the one of the first
long john Neville. Some of these

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people are were way better before my
time. There there are a few earliers

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that were doing this sort of thing, but he was a big one that

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moved us into kind of the contemporary
modern, you know, huge explosion of

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what is now. You know,
podcasts like yours and mind like this very

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podcast are diamonds and there's a ton
of them out there, and a lot

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of us inspired and by Art Bell. I remember reading somewhere that he started

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out as a political podcast oh really
broadcaster. He was doing you know,

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all politics, and he got bored
with it, and I think it was

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like a spur of the moment.
He brought someone on that was kind of

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in the paranormal realm, so to
speak, and they noticed right away that

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his listenership was growing, so that
was, but I'm pretty sure it was

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he was just all politics at one
time and got bored with it. Well,

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you know, there's kind of a
spin out there. There's a lot

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of coverage by mainstream media and at
least Motherboard kind of with there with this

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spin that kind of blaming him for
on air conspiracy theorists. In fact,

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they I think this is going a
bit far. I understand their argument,

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but he says he brought the world
UFO's area fifty one and Alex Jones,

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I think that's oh a big,
a bit of an overstatement. And then

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they go on to explain Alex Jones
wasn't on his show or anything. It's

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just Alex Jones also a conspiracy theorist. But Alex Jones is you know,

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I think what he does is very
terrible. It's negative, it's it's dangerous,

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and PSA is a good example.
Yeah, I mean it's bad,

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bad stuff, and I don't think
you can blame Art Bell for that.

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Of course he did. You know, he was much He's much more light

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about the way he brings this stuff
forward. And I think he made us

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think it's no problem to make people
think, and you know, we certainly

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need to question our government. But
yeah, I think that a little bit

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of this spin And I think just
because people are a bit frustrated, especially

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with the attention of people like Alex
Jones, get they're kind of I think

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that's going a little far blaming him
for that to be personally, but and

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it's unfortunately that gets into the story
of his passing. Yeah, that is

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too bad. The very first clip
I heard with him was the Frantic Area

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fifty one collar you know which,
but that is that is one heck of

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a one heck of a hoax.
Think I was really really convincing. Yeah,

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yeah, Bell was neat though,
what a voice and then the music.

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And I've never got to meet him
or talk with him or anything.

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I would love to have. But
he's he's a pretty seclusive person. I

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mean he yeah, kind of keeps
to himself out there in the desert,

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that's right, yep. And there
was a there supposedly you know, conspiratorial

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uh you know, someone was after
him. You know, that's one of

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the reasons he wanted to retire.
He wanted Yeah, well who knows.

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I mean, people get threats all
the time. Yeah, so but not

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to say that that's a good thing, or that shouldn't be taken seriously,

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or that it's not scary. But
so I wonder if you know people were

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really after him, and if so, that's that's really sad. But because

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yeah, especially for someone like him, But yeah, it's unfortunately he's passed.

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It's definitely a big deal for this
community. A legend has passed.

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And you know, whenever we would
write stories like about him coming on air

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or going back off air, you
know, those would get a lot of

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hits. People really cared about him
and what he did. And you know,

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as far as him going on and
off air, I salute him as

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far as doing what he feels his
best for him and his family and his

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life, because yeah, you can't
let you know, these big guys kind

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of control your life. You got
to live your life still, And I

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think he had that's where his mind
was, that he's got to take care

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of his family and live his life. And that's that became what was more

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important to him than doing this radio
stuff. Yeah I totally get that.

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Yeah, agree and agree, Yeah, all right, and other news.

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You got any other news? I
got a couple of things. Uh,

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no, go far away. So
one of these is Tom Reid. So

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that poor guy. I think you've
had him on your show, but he

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feels that when he was a child
he had this sighting. Yes, and

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the town where he had his sighting, this was in nineteen sixty nine,

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and it wasn't just a sighting.
It was this large craft they saw in

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the forest. Many people saw this
sighting, and the sighting itself was referenced

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in like blue book and by Heinik. Not what happened to him afterwards,

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but he says that you know,
him and his family went out to see

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this thing and they had this experience
of an abduction experience, he says,

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So he did some pretty actually groundbreaking
work and getting some attention around his case.

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It was in Massachusetts, and he
got this people to donate and got

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this memorial put in near where this
happened. They also were able to get

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like the state you know, historical
society to recognize it as an event that

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happened, which is pretty cool.
But he's had trouble because he put the

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memorial on a spot that I guess
was the town's land and people complained,

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so we had to move it soon
after installing it. Well, now he's

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moved to. He's in Kentucky,
and they're making a move it again because

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I guess the spot. They moved
it to his private land, but there's

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an easement there for the town,
so they're making him move it again.

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And he said the town administrator who's
asking him to move it was the one

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who chose the spot that it's on
now. So surprisingly, this story is

250
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getting a lot of attention. It's
in the New York Post, The AP

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wrote about it the last Let's see
where else did I say? It?

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In US News? And World Report
did a story on it. So I'm

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not sure why this story is having
so much legs in particular, but yeah,

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yeah, that's kind of a story
that you'll probably see pop up in

255
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your Google news or wherever you read
your daily news. Well, wasn't that

256
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Isn't that monument like like granted or
something? Concrete? Concrete, and they're

257
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going to have to move something that
weighs tons five thousand pounds two and a

258
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half tons, Oh my god,
Yeah, yeah, it's huge. So

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yeah, five thousand pounds, So
that's probably, you know, why you're

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so upset. If it was didn't
weigh so much, it probably would be

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easy. You could. I'm sure
they have to get like, you know,

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some major piece of equipment to lift
it up, and so, yeah,

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that's unfortunate. Yeah, you'd think
that they were to relax a little

264
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bit for some thing like this.
Yep. So Tom Reid I usually see

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him every year in Roswell for the
Roswell Festival, and I'll be in Roswell

266
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this year too. So if you
come to the Roswell Museum during the festival,

267
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:15.240
come say hi. Karen and I
all have a table. We'll have

268
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some UFO Congress t shirts and stuff
and everything. So and Tom Reid will

269
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likely be there. He's been in
the last couple of years, so we'll

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00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:29.200
see. You know, who should
go to Roswell and chill with us?

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Who's that? Martin Willis? Well, that's like the first part of July,

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right, is it July fourth?
Yeah? Or usually the July fourth

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weekend. Let's see this year it
is July fifth to the ninth, just

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after as a possibility. It's a
lot of fun, all right. And

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I got to tell people, if
you're planning on going to Roswell, you

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got to take some time because it's
only like an hour way and go visit

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Carlsbad caverns. Oh, I would
love to do that. That is I'm

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amazing. It's only, yeah,
like an hour away into the desert.

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Absolutely mind boggling, these humongous caverns
and these caves. It's it's incredible.

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It's it's a one. It's so
fun. I love to go there because

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it's a big hike. You can
take an elevator, dan, or you

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can walk. It's much more fun
to walk. It's not that bad.

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It's a bunch of stairs, but
you can take your time and absolutely incredible.

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I remember as a kid in school, like grade school, them talking

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about the caverns and saying they were
discovered because a guy was on horseback and

286
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saw, like you thought it was
a cloud, ended up being bats coming

287
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:51.359
out of it. Yeah, Hue, that population stold it in there.

288
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Oh yeah. So every night you
go down and then every night they do

289
00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.000
this thing at sunset where you can
sit and you you watch in a part

290
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.599
ranger tells you all about the bats
and everything as you wait for them to

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00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.680
come out. And then they start
to come out, and I think it's

292
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:12.119
for like half an hour, this
huge cloud of spiraling bats come out of

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the cave. And you sit there
and watch, and you know, they

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00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.960
say it's okay to talk. Just
don't take flash photography because that can't spook

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00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.680
them. And you could take a
flash photography and then they get spooked and

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00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.799
then they go. Some of them
return to the cave and don't come out,

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00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:30.599
and then they don't come out for
the night, and of course then

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they don't eat. But they're really
important because to the entire desert, they

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fly for miles and miles and miles, eating bugs but also dropping guarna in

300
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Iguana. They're droppings which fertilize the
entire desert. So they're like really important.

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But we're out of time, we
are I see that bump bump bom.

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00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:57.559
So thank you so much Martin for
joining us with the news. You

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00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:03.079
can check out Martinette pod cast UFO
and I Know on. Thanks, thank

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00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:08.079
you, and we'll be right back
after this short break with our guest Michael

305
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:30.440
Shratt. So stay tuned. You're
listening to Open minds UFO Radio. I

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00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:34.519
am very happy to welcome back to
the show Michael Shrat. How are you,

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00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:40.200
Michael, Hi, Elejandro doing good. It's probably been years since I've

308
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.720
had you on my podcast, although
for a while there. I think I

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00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.880
had you on a lot. We
did a show seven years ago. Yes,

310
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.880
seven years yep, Oh my gosh, yep. That is a long

311
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:57.799
time ago. But you know what
in those seven years, and I don't

312
00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:03.799
know how you've done this, and
i'd like to know the secret. I

313
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:10.519
don't think you've aged today, No
way. You look you look just like

314
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:12.480
you did. I think the very
first time I saw you. No way,

315
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:15.599
it's impossible, because the first time
I saw you face to face was

316
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:21.160
probably at a local Phoenix move On. Sure, but yeah, you are

317
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:26.880
like the ageless? Are you part
extraterrestrial? Let's just get that out.

318
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.200
Could be you never know. Ah, you're not gonna let us know for

319
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:36.480
sure though, top secret, keep
it under wraps. But it is great.

320
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:41.440
Yeah, I mean seriously, And
I remember maybe the first time we

321
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.480
talked about at least one of the
first was at a conference, maybe a

322
00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.559
move On conference, just probably ten
years ago or so. And uh yeah,

323
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:55.000
and you're still still going. Yeah, there's still more fruit on the

324
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:59.519
vine. And uh, I'm not
gonna give up. As you know,

325
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.880
we're tech. So what I try
to point out in my lectures is that

326
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:08.839
the United States government is nothing more
than a temporary custodian of those assets.

327
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:14.160
So technically we own the aircraft,
we own the hangars, we own the

328
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:18.920
facilities, we own the runways,
we own the libraries, there the archives.

329
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.359
We even pay the salary of those
people. So they're just temporary custodians.

330
00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:30.200
We have every right to question authority. But this is an interesting aspect

331
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.200
thinking about you know, back,
one of the things I asked you was,

332
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.960
despite this, despite your criticism of
the way the money is spent,

333
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:42.279
the waste and the over secrecy,
you if they came to you and said,

334
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.880
hey, do you want to work
on our next black project, you'd

335
00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.200
be there in a heartbeat. I
would be there in a heartbeat. Yeah.

336
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.960
But I guess from the inside you
could do your best, I guess

337
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.039
to make sure the money's spent correctly. Huh. You would think so.

338
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:02.240
But when you start hearing these reports
that taxpayers spent two million dollars to send

339
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:07.519
two thirty nine cent washers across the
United States, you start raising these red

340
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:11.960
flags. And that's happened over and
over again. Really, yep, and

341
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:15.559
these aren't special washers or anything.
This is just no, no, that's

342
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.279
kind of my hobby is to track
these fraud, waste, and abuse.

343
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:25.400
And I've got just dozens of examples
of this, right, So you need

344
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.640
to be in some sort of watchdog
agency. M Yeah. So some of

345
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:37.119
the stuff that in particular you have
touched upon, although you do, you've

346
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:44.319
done all kinds of different cases,
but are the triangle craft that people see,

347
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:52.400
right? And it seems that you
are convinced the government is working or

348
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:59.359
has developed triangular aircraft. And what
I'd be going to too far if I

349
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:03.960
said anti gravity, I would think
that you're certainly heading down the correct road,

350
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:10.559
Alejandro. As I've mentioned before,
it's just my personal assessment that ninety

351
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:15.640
five percent of what people are reporting
as extraterrestrial flying triangles, if you want

352
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.319
to call them, are our own
deep black programs. The remaining five percent

353
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:26.039
represent the unknown part of this phenomenon. I'm not saying by any means that

354
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.440
all of them are man made,
because, as you know, and as

355
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.480
David Marler has pointed out multiple times
before, these triangle cases go back to

356
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:40.640
eighteen ninety six. Lockheed's skunk works
wasn't around back then. Jack Northrop hadn't

357
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:45.240
even begun flying these flying wings back
at that time, So to say that

358
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:51.759
they're all men made just wouldn't be
consistent with what we know about the historic

359
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:56.319
record. Plus, if you look
at Jacques Valet and his research, and

360
00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:00.519
I think he has a lot of
good points to bring out. He's that

361
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:07.640
UFOs usos unidentified submerged objects have been
seen coming and going out of the oceans.

362
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.400
The phenomenon has been around for thousands
of years. They can materialize and

363
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:18.000
de materialize at will. They've been
seen going in and outside the sides of

364
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:22.079
mountains. So I don't think we're
looking at a man made craft in those

365
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.640
cases. But in the cases where
you do think it might be, I

366
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:33.440
think you have a great argument because
the triangle sidings seem to be and I

367
00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:36.039
talk about this over and over again. When we have these people who have

368
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.039
had these sidings, or with Marler
or with others, they're different. They're

369
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:47.480
so much more blatant. Often,
although the minority percentage wise of sightings are

370
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:52.480
triangles, the most spectacular sidings are
often triangles where they're like hovering right over

371
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.440
people's cars. Correct. Correct.
We can certainly get into a few of

372
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:02.000
those cases. We can talk about
Colin Saunders case. He had a fantastic

373
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:04.039
sighting it. I'd love to hear
about it. Yeah, no problem.

374
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.160
If all you have to do is
YouTube his name Colin Saunders, and you

375
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:15.599
can see his fantastic sighting. Great
case, great case, and it's basically

376
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:22.400
in a nutshell nineteen ninety nine.
Four individuals, this is March thirty first,

377
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.319
nineteen ninety nine, driving down kind
of a deserted road, made a

378
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:32.640
kind of a left turn and were
surprised and shocked to see four red lights

379
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.920
at about a fifteen degree angle up
toward the left. And as they got

380
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:41.880
closer they could see that what they
were looking at were just not four lights,

381
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:47.279
but they were looking at the back
of a triangular or diamond shaped craft.

382
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.599
This was the aft end of what
they saw. And then not too

383
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.920
far after that, according to Colin, this craft made a ninety degree tip

384
00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:00.720
up maneuver like it was quote underwater, very slow maneuver. On the top

385
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:06.240
side of this craft. He identified
these raised box sections. Just incredible.

386
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:09.920
He also mentioned that the upper surface
of the craft, the surface of the

387
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.839
vehicle look like it was moonlight shining
on a lake. It had this reflectivity,

388
00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:20.480
the shimmering effect, like it was
alive. We've heard this before as

389
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:28.640
well, basically very almost silent typecraft. And this has been seen in the

390
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.880
modern day. Sightings of these triangles
appear to have started in nineteen seventy four

391
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:37.559
and they've been seen all around the
world. So you know, with your

392
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:43.680
work and what technologies may or may
not be out there, what sort of

393
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:49.160
technology might we had in nineteen ninety
nine that could explain that. Well,

394
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.640
what I like to do is I
try to track the legacy and the pattern

395
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.559
recognition of what we're dealing with here. And what I mean by that is

396
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.160
if you look at multiple cases and
start to see this pattern developing. Now,

397
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:06.480
we just talked about the Colin Saunders
case nineteen ninety nine. I've got

398
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:12.960
a case here from David Marler.
This is November twenty second, nineteen eighty

399
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:19.440
five, Madison, Wisconsin, where
we had a state employee who saw approximately

400
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:24.359
forty foot wide black triangle go directly
over his location and just going to read

401
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.119
you the quote of what he said. Now, this is the bottom surface

402
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.039
of the craft. The underside of
the craft appeared to resemble quote, the

403
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:37.599
back of a refrigerator, like a
collection of condensation pipes that ran back and

404
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:42.200
forth after gliding over the witnesses vehicle, the craft departed at a tremendous speed

405
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.200
and left no sonic boom. So
this is nineteen eighty five. And we

406
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.759
keep hearing, Alejandro, this same
thing over and over and over again,

407
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:54.640
not just triangles, but boomerangs as
well. So we've got these tubes,

408
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:00.640
pipes, cylinders on the bottom of
these craft. Now I've just highlighted one

409
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:05.160
case here. This is November twenty
second, nineteen eighty five. The same

410
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.840
tubes, pipes, and cylinders were
seen on the Hudson Valley boomerang nineteen eighty

411
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:14.280
two to nineteen eighty nine. The
same tubes, pipes and cylinders were seen

412
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.719
on the bottom of the Belgium triangle
nineteen eighty nine nineteen ninety. We also

413
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:23.599
have a mechanical understructure being seen on
the bottom of the January fifth, two

414
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:28.480
thousand, Southern Illinois Triangle case as
well. So that's just four to five

415
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.719
cases right there. I've got twelve
other cases in my files where witnesses are

416
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:37.000
reporting these strange tubes, pipes,
and cylinders, and a lot of these

417
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:43.840
cases are taking place on Thursday nights, Alejandro. Just for example, the

418
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:47.159
Phoenix Lights case took place March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, which was a

419
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:54.599
Thursday night. And that's very significant
because within the black world of defense contractors,

420
00:34:55.039 --> 00:35:00.239
which I call Aerospace Alley, starting
from Sandy Diego, Southern California,

421
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:06.000
going up pch going into Hawthorne where
Northrop is, and then sort of like

422
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:10.519
hanging right where Burbank Skunkworks used to
be, going up the fourteenth toward Lancaster

423
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:15.480
where the L ten eleven hangar is, which is now the current Skunkworks location.

424
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:19.960
And then that's also the same location
of Air Force Plant forty two where

425
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:28.159
Northrop and Boeing also has facilities.
That's where the Rockwell Space Shuttle facility was,

426
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:32.159
and then continuing north to Edwards Air
Force Base and terminating with Skilled Composites

427
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:36.599
in Mojave, California. So if
anyone who wants to know what's going on

428
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.760
within the black world of aerospace research, just take your ride through Aerospace Ellie

429
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:46.519
and you can see the facilities interesting. Sean Calvin, you're probably familiar.

430
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:52.519
You may be familiar with him.
He's got a Facebook site called Triangle UFOs

431
00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:57.679
and he was convinced in his research
that, you know, there's no way

432
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:01.159
that these triangles could be human made
until he saw his own. And he

433
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.000
was in Las Vegas, that's where
he lives. He was driving, he

434
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:12.920
says, near Area fifty one actually, and this triangle craft was just above

435
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.199
his car. You know, you've
heard these stories before. He stops his

436
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:21.760
car, he looks and just triangle
craft. It's not too incredibly large,

437
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.760
you know. I think he felt
it was like twenty thirty feet wide,

438
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:31.760
and it was over the car,
and then it continued towards Area fifty one.

439
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:37.239
He said, it hugged, it
followed the contour, it stayed and

440
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:43.199
the same distance to the ground the
whole time, and you know, kind

441
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:49.280
of following the contour up over the
mountains. And he said, looking at

442
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:53.320
the bottom of this thing, like
for example, the lights they look like

443
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:58.679
incandescent lights. They look like,
you know, there's a filament there,

444
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.119
and these were just all he was
like, oh my gosh, this is

445
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:07.199
completely human and he changed his mind
at that moment. Interesting you mentioned that

446
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:13.599
I've got another case from David Marler. This is Woodhead Pass near Barnsley,

447
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:19.400
England, August twenty fifth, nineteen
ninety where a police officer with thirty years

448
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:23.519
of experience was with his wife.
They were returning from a Fleetwood Mac music

449
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:28.400
concert. It was around eleven to
fifty nine pm. They're driving home and

450
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:32.159
off to the left, emerging from
this dark, misty cloud, comes this

451
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:37.480
two hundred foot per side black flying
triangle. It had one light at the

452
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:42.239
center and the center part had a
relieve section. And I believe I've sent

453
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:45.079
you some photos of my card stock
model, Alejandro, so you can,

454
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:47.599
you know, maybe the listeners can
follow along somehow, but yeah, I'll

455
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:52.039
post those, and yep, I
love this one. This one is so

456
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.159
cool. I'm glad you're going over
this. Yeah. I like this case

457
00:37:54.199 --> 00:38:00.079
too, because I mean thirty year
witness talking about police office, thirty years

458
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.280
of experience, a reliable witness.
He also said that it had a white

459
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:09.519
point on each of the triangle terminating
sections, and then on this relief section

460
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:14.719
on the inside, it had this
cross beam and girder construction. Now that

461
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:21.719
is the same exact description that we've
heard from hundreds, repeat hundreds of eyewitnesses

462
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:27.519
on the Hudson Valley case, where
they reported seeing this crossbeam and girder construction

463
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:31.639
through these transparent panels where you could
look up inside the craft. For the

464
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:36.360
Hudson Belly case. That's what this
guy's describing. And then he goes on,

465
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:42.039
not only did David provide me with
the text from this case and I'm

466
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:45.800
looking at it right now, he
also provided me with a copy of the

467
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.920
original sketch by the original eyewitness.
Now I'm not going to read the whole

468
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:52.880
thing, but there's one sentence here
that I thought was very interesting. He

469
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:58.519
said that he saw some what looked
like human figures looking back at him.

470
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:02.000
And here's what this guy I said
here says the side of the craft appear

471
00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:07.440
to have several illuminated windows, and
at one of the windows, I saw

472
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.800
two to three figures that appeared to
be human. Certainly, nothing about the

473
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:15.840
figures made me think they were anything
other than human, reinforcing my belief that

474
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:21.599
the craft was a military project.
Yeah, this image is so fun because

475
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:24.480
you have these guys and overalls,
you know, in the image that you've

476
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:29.199
put together on this and they're just
kind of like, you know, we

477
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.360
would if you and I were on
this craft, just with their hands at

478
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:37.079
their sides looking out the window,
which you know, makes me think of

479
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.480
if these are humans, just what
it would be like, you know,

480
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:45.360
to these guys, it's every day
work and they're probably enjoying the view or

481
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:51.480
something. But here they are standing
in this this object that is doing things

482
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:57.039
that you know, humans most humans
do not realize it is even possible,

483
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:01.960
given the laws of physics. And
the other thing too, is many times

484
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:07.239
we hear about flashing lights, and
like in the Hudson Valley case, we

485
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:13.159
hear about flashing lights, but not
haphazard in sequence. Monico Driscoll had a

486
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:19.519
siding in nineteen eighty three and she
described how these multicolored flashing lights would flash

487
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:22.199
in sequence up and down the wing
of the craft. So you have the

488
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:27.239
reds go off, blues go off, yellows go off, whites go off

489
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:32.800
up and down this wing section,
but all in sequence, indicating that there

490
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:37.239
was a purpose, almost like it
wanted to be seen. It was brazen,

491
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.000
it was too cool for school.
This thing wanted to be seen.

492
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:49.519
And so many of these cases that
seems to be the case, that it

493
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:57.679
appears that this thing wants to be
seen or at thease. So what are

494
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:02.119
your theories behind that? Good question. The only thing I would add to

495
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:07.320
that is we talked a little bit
before Thursday nights. So many of these

496
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.840
cases to Connock State Parkway Thursday night, March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven.

497
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:16.880
Thursday night. I was told by
Tony Gonzalez that the reason why they do

498
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:22.039
this on Thursday nights is because Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is pre flight,

499
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.599
Thursday is the test flight, Friday's
debrief, Saturday Sunday there's generally no one

500
00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:34.840
at the facility. So that's why
Thursdays are very keenly something to look into

501
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:40.800
because Thursdays are also when the quote
unquote first generation Aurora was tested over the

502
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:47.840
entire Los Angeles basin, booming people
on a Thursday morning around six twenty nine

503
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:52.679
am, the last Thursday of the
month for about three years in that time

504
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:59.039
period. So when you put this
together, we can start stitching this tapestry

505
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:04.480
of these tests flights of these classified
vehicles which are paid for by our tax

506
00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:09.880
dollars and have no congressional oversight and
no public scrutiny. Now I may have

507
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:15.480
told you this before, but maybe
you have your Do you have an idea

508
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:22.360
as to why that craft was named
the Aurora? I do have an idea

509
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:28.239
because in Ben Rich's book Skunk Works, he indicates that the term Aurora was

510
00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:31.880
used as the procurement funding for the
B two stealth bomber, and it has

511
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:38.960
been erroneously repeated for almost three decades
now as the code name for a top

512
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:45.320
secret hypersonic replacement for the SR seventy
one Blackbird. It's completely false. That's

513
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.840
not the name of it. That's
interesting. Yeah, no, people have

514
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.119
gotten this wrong for decades. Well, here's here's the story. I have

515
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:59.159
Quad Swanson. Do you remember him. I don't. He's a theoretical physicist.

516
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:01.599
I think he's still in Tucson right
now. But great guy. He's

517
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:06.400
spoken at the conference a couple of
times. But he says he was working

518
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:08.719
on this project and it was a
cover project. He knew it, you

519
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:16.360
know, as a project they were
working on essentially a propulsion where these lasers

520
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:22.519
would hit a like radioactive material,
create an explosion and it would propel a

521
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.519
craft or at least in this case, it was for energy to create energy.

522
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:31.039
It was theoretically possible, but he
knew, you know, it wasn't

523
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:35.519
something they could obtain at the time, nor did they have the research or

524
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:43.039
the budget, but the money was
going elsewhere. This project was in Colorado

525
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:51.679
at what is their base there used
to be where Space Command was out of

526
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:54.840
and then they moved in. They've
moved it to Cheyenne. Before that,

527
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.800
it was in Aurora at this base
that I can't remember what it is look

528
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:02.239
at it as we're talking. But
that's why they named it the project.

529
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.000
He felt that it was sort of
an extension and that's where they came up

530
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:10.400
with the name Aurora. And it
was way back when, so I guess

531
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:17.320
it's possible. As far as I
know. According to ben Rich, that

532
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:22.679
term is specifically pertaining to the B
two funning. Now, when that project

533
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:27.719
was unveiled November twenty second, nineteen
eighty eight. Well, now we know

534
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:30.800
that what it was, it was
for the B two stealth bomber. But

535
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:32.280
this is according to ben Rich in
his own books, so I have to

536
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:37.960
take his word for it. Yeah, he's the authority, so it would

537
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:42.000
make sense to listen to him.
But that's really interesting. Now, another

538
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:45.360
one of these, and so if
you don't mind, I'll share these.

539
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:51.079
They might be on open minds already
brought. I'll share these images for people

540
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:57.639
to be able to look at.
Absolutely absolutely. Another fascinating one is Yorktown

541
00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:04.800
nineteen eighty five. If you could
describe that one Maureen Davis. Okay,

542
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.639
this is a good case. Now
I have to give credit. I have

543
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:13.559
to give credit to Linda Zimmerman.
She's the one who interviewed Maureen Davis.

544
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.199
So credit has to go to her
for vetting this case out. But what

545
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:22.079
I really like to describe in this
case, and Linda talks about this from

546
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.639
the very beginning, if you can't
trust a reference librarian, who can you

547
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:31.519
trust? I mean, this is
just very a very humble woman, very

548
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:35.599
honest lady. She's a reference library. And I mean, if you can't

549
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:37.199
trust that, who are you going
to trust? Right? So that's the

550
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:43.000
first thing we should point out.
Now as the story goes, Maureen was

551
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:46.360
waiting for her husband near a bus
stop. Try to recall this the best

552
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:52.760
I can, and out of nowhere
comes this black Isoceles triangle. It wasn't

553
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:57.320
an acute triangle, but it was
an Asaceles triangle. And a lot of

554
00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:01.000
times we hear about these craft being
the side of a football field. Okay,

555
00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:05.840
we keep hearing this over and over
again. Hudson Valley, Boomerang,

556
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:08.519
Belgium triangle. It was the size
of a football field. That's not the

557
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:15.159
case here, Alejandro. This particular
craft, according to Maureen Davis, was

558
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:22.199
the size of a football field stadium, over eight hundred feet across black triangle.

559
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:27.519
It measured about one hundred feet thick. It had aft lights, it

560
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.840
had a white at each of the
corners. And then what's interesting, Alejandro,

561
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:37.800
in this particular case, this is
something very unique. Maureene saw an

562
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.519
iris open up on the bottom of
this craft, a large circular opening,

563
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:46.679
and she got a view on the
inside of the craft itself. She described

564
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:54.079
it as terraced apartment complexes stacked together
with multiple lights on each of the floors.

565
00:46:54.480 --> 00:47:00.559
So if you were taking these almost
looks like pizza boxes stacked up on

566
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:02.559
each other with a one inch gap
between them. That's what this looked like.

567
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.960
And she also said that this red
orb came from behind the craft,

568
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:12.599
went up inside the circular opening,
it closed up, and then this thing

569
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:16.960
departed at a high rid to speed, left no sonic boom. What's interesting

570
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:29.159
about all of these cases is they
they're describing these incredible structures, huge immense

571
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:34.519
but they're all so very different.
Mm hmm, yeah, you're right.

572
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.360
And as you know, with these
these humongous budgets that you're talking about and

573
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:44.480
these huge wastes where the you know, you've talked about these where they're even

574
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:47.519
just coming up with a blueprints of
a craft without even building it could cost

575
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:52.800
millions and millions of dollars. Sure, sure, that must mean that they're

576
00:47:52.880 --> 00:48:00.760
spending and have been spending a lot
of money. Well, Jane's Defense Weekly

577
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:06.639
two thousand and six reported that sometime
in the nineteen sixties. Now they're not

578
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:09.400
even sure. Even Jane's Defense Weekly
doesn't know exactly when this happened. All

579
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:16.480
they said is in the nineteen sixties, something called the Dawson Report was handed

580
00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:22.440
over to Washington d C. And
in the Dawson Report is nothing less than

581
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:30.320
all of Nazi Germany's secret stealth technology
that the UK and Allies basically mopped up

582
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:36.199
at the close of World War Two. The British government had a tremendous dossier

583
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:39.960
of all the classified research that the
Nazis were working on at the end of

584
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:44.760
World War Two, and that was
handed over to the United States government somewhere

585
00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:50.400
in the nineteen sixties, probably after
JFK was assassinated. So what's in that

586
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.199
we don't know for sure, but
we absolutely know and this is borne out

587
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:59.760
by the article that the UK and
US government has had a long standing relationship

588
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:05.639
dealth technology. In other words,
the Brits have their triangles too. Interesting,

589
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.599
So we'll talk more about that.
We're going to go to break right

590
00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:12.880
now. We are talking to Michael
Schratt. You're listening to Open Mind GUFO

591
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.519
Radio. We're going to have a
short break. If you're listening to the

592
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:21.519
podcast, you'll hear a music musical
interlude, but if you're listening on KGRA

593
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:24.719
you will hear a commercial break and
we'll be right back with Michael Shratt.

594
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:45.719
Welcome back to Open Mind GUFO Radio. This is your host, Alejandro Rojas

595
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:51.000
and I am here with the amazing
Michael Trat and we're having a great conversation

596
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.760
here. And before we came to
break, you were talking about this report

597
00:50:54.159 --> 00:51:00.599
that talked about how the US and
the UK had retrieved, you know,

598
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:07.519
these documents from this technology from the
Nazis essentially, and that the UK has

599
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:13.039
their triangles as well. And of
course they've had their sightings. And I've

600
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:16.480
got a great story from Nick Pope
where he said that I think it was

601
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:22.880
the costs for sighting they contacted the
Americans and said, hey, you know,

602
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:27.000
we got this triangle flying around,
is it's yours? And the Americans

603
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:30.199
responded, no, we've got these
triangles flying around. We're going to ask

604
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:37.599
you the same things. Although Nick
admits, you know, himself and his

605
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:43.960
American counterparts may not be aware of
other programs going on, wouldn't be the

606
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:49.960
first time that the United States intelligence
community used their policy of lying, denying,

607
00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:53.639
and deceiving a program. Give you
a couple of quick examples. Lockheed

608
00:51:53.719 --> 00:52:00.360
F one seventeen Have Blue was a
completely black program that eventually turned into what

609
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:04.800
we know today is the Stealth Fighter. They successfully kept that under wraps for

610
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:08.880
decades. The first flight was December
one, nineteen seventy seven at Groom Lake

611
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:13.559
Area fifty one with HAVE Blue.
Bill Park was the test pilot on that

612
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.719
particular flight, and they kept that
program under wraps. They successfully did it,

613
00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:20.360
so when they want to keep a
secret, they can do it,

614
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:25.320
no doubt about it. And one
of the things just to move nowhere,

615
00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:29.440
moving from topic to topic, but
just so much to talk about. But

616
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:34.360
with these cases that we've talked about, for the most part, you've built

617
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:38.840
these models. So first of all, you have great imagery where you've done

618
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:43.320
like kind of the CG renders that
you've put in backgrounds that are similar.

619
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:47.679
Beyond that, you've also created kind
of these blueprints that demonstrate the craft and

620
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:55.199
sometimes your ideas about what technologies sure
they may be using. And then third

621
00:52:55.320 --> 00:53:00.440
you've also, now this is more
recently, created the these models where people

622
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:06.079
can cut out on the paper and
you've got instructions on how they can build

623
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.920
models of these craft. And what
was your inspiration to do that? Yeah,

624
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:14.800
good question. I just want to
make it real. I want to

625
00:53:14.840 --> 00:53:17.239
make it come alive. I want
to make it my own and the only

626
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:21.840
way to do that is to keep
everything visual. Everything I do, Alejandro,

627
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.760
as you know, is completely visual. It's all image based, it's

628
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:30.840
all illustration based. And the way
to make these cases come alive is to

629
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.440
build a model of them and then
you have something you can hold in your

630
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:38.079
hand. You can demonstrate this at
a presentation. That's what Colin Saunders did.

631
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:42.480
He talks about how the craft tipped
up ninety degrees. You've got to

632
00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:45.880
have a model to do that.
So I just started tracking these cases and

633
00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:51.679
the ones that I felt would make
a good candidate for a card stock model.

634
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:54.360
I've made the model, and I've
provided it free of charge. This

635
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:58.639
is a crusade. I'm certainly not
in this for the money. So if

636
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:01.320
anyone wants blueprints of these, just
hit me up and I'll send you the

637
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:06.639
blueprints. You can build it yourself, and you can verify with the reference

638
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:10.199
data and the reference material that these
are real cases. And in most of

639
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:14.079
these cases, we've paid for them
with our own text dollars, so that's

640
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:17.079
really the inspiration. And what we'll
do is I'll post the ones that you've

641
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:22.320
given me regarding the cases we've talked
about, but you have many, many

642
00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:25.679
more, so sure people can talk
with you. And you've provided a picture

643
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:30.480
here of some of the other ones
that you have, and you know,

644
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:36.000
hopefully, and I think we've talked
about this a bit, but hopefully this

645
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:39.079
next UFO Congress you can make it
and then people can come and actually see

646
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:44.719
them and touch them and get the
blueprints as well. Better yet, I'll

647
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:46.519
make you a whole series and you
can put them in your display case.

648
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:52.159
Perfect. That would be amazing,
That would be awesome. So one of

649
00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:58.039
the models that you have here next
to you've at a table at a conference,

650
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:02.400
I think this was move on.
If I remember correctly, I believe

651
00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:09.280
it's the unacknowledged premiere last April.
That might be really oh okay with the

652
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:15.880
black black tablecloth. Yeah, yeah, that's from unacknowledged premiere. Okay.

653
00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:20.360
And you've got you know, your
craft spread out here. And of course

654
00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:24.320
one of those which I want to
make a large model of myself for the

655
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:30.440
Congress and for other events is the
Phoenix Lights event. Yes, bump bump

656
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:36.760
bomb, So Mark uh hut So, I wanted to ask you your thoughts.

657
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:40.360
This is March thirteen to nineteen ninety
seven, large triangular craft at least

658
00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:47.480
earlier in the day eight eight pm
hour seen from out by Kingman kind of

659
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:57.719
more needles, Laughlin area and then
seeing over Phoenix and down into Tucson this

660
00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:01.039
object. Do you believe that this
one? Because it is triangular shaped as

661
00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:05.400
well, it's more of a chevron
of V shape. Do you think that

662
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:10.760
also is a large black project craft? Good, good question, Aldjandro.

663
00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:16.039
Let's let's break it down here and
we'll talk about the timeframe. The first

664
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:22.920
siding took place seven to fifty five
pm Henderson, Nevada. Then the next

665
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:28.239
sighting was eight fifteen pauld in,
Arizona, then Prescott at eight seventeen,

666
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:32.679
over Phoenix at eight thirty pm,
ending in Tucson at eight forty five pm.

667
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:38.960
We're looking at a distance of one
hundred and sixteen miles just for the

668
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:44.920
center part of this particular case.
And if you do the time and distance

669
00:56:45.079 --> 00:56:50.320
that it traveled, it was going
four hundred and sixty four miles an hour

670
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:54.880
to do this whole thing. So
one thing we can eliminate is flares.

671
00:56:55.440 --> 00:57:01.840
Flares were seen similar to the time
that they took place, but obviously flares

672
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:06.079
don't describe everything. The other thing
I want to point out is it did

673
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:08.760
take place on a Thursday night.
March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, was

674
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:15.159
a Thursday. Tim Lee was the
primary eyewitness. I interviewed him at his

675
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:20.840
location. He said that this thing
was so low that he could throw a

676
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:23.039
soft ball and hit the bottom of
it. That's how low this thing was.

677
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:29.920
And a lot of people think that
this was a mile across. According

678
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:36.559
to Tim and National Geographic did laser
GPS scanning and measurements, it was fifteen

679
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:40.119
hundred feet across, plus or minus
ten feet. That's according to National Geographic.

680
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:44.800
So although it was large. It
wasn't a mile across, it was

681
00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:49.800
about fifteen hundred feet across. And
one thing I want to point out is

682
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:55.559
that multiple eyewitnesses in this case also
reported what they termed pipes and cylinders on

683
00:57:55.639 --> 00:58:00.480
the bottom of the Phoenix lights Craft. Well that's interesting, yep, that

684
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:07.159
was reported. And what's interesting too
is we've got the twenty twenty five report

685
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:13.800
air Force twenty twenty five report,
and in that report they discuss how they're

686
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:22.320
going to be using airborne mobile holographic
image projection technology to basically full an unsuspecting

687
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:28.079
opponent in their words, So this
is a technology that they'd like to have,

688
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:30.360
and anytime you hear about something that
they'd like to have, it's already

689
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:37.239
been fielded. So I'm just saying
that one possibility for the Phoenix lights Craft

690
00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:44.800
might have been a holographic image projection
technology. That's very interesting, and that's

691
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:50.400
where you can get this fifteen hundred
two thousand foot wide craft. Everybody says

692
00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:52.599
it's just too big to build,
Well, it's not built. It's a

693
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:55.519
projected image. A lot of even
Bill Scott talks about some of the eyewitnesses

694
00:58:55.559 --> 00:59:00.400
said that this thing was translucent.
You could see through it. It had

695
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:06.360
this invisible quality to it, like
it was projected. We can't rule it

696
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:14.280
out now. If this were the
case, it traveled across the state and

697
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:19.960
at a speed that is not known
for aircraft, especially in military aircraft.

698
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:24.159
Does that mean that it would be
projected from a craft you think? Or

699
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:28.480
yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
That's what I'm thinking. And again,

700
00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:31.000
I'm not making this up. It's
not coming directly from me. I want

701
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:36.320
to quote my sources. This is
the twenty twenty five report and this is

702
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:38.880
section five point six. Listen to
what they have to say. It says

703
00:59:38.920 --> 00:59:45.960
the holographic projector displays a three dimensional
visual image in a desired location removed from

704
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:52.840
the display generator. The projector can
be used for psychological operations and strategic perception

705
00:59:53.079 --> 01:00:00.280
management. It is also useful for
optical deception and cloaking, providing a momentary

706
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:08.599
distraction when engaging an unsophisticated adversary.
Really right there and all thought, right

707
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:15.039
there, right And at the CEES
conference, which is the tech conference this

708
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:19.679
year, I believe they had something
like that. They had a holographic thing

709
01:00:19.719 --> 01:00:24.440
that was not quite to the degree, but very close to like what we

710
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:29.679
see in star wars. Uh so, I mean, if they're doing that

711
01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:35.239
for entertainment purposes, who knows.
I guess what the military industrial complex could

712
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:42.039
have developed. I like their terminology
here, psychological operation, strategic perception.

713
01:00:42.199 --> 01:00:46.920
And then they're talking about when engaging
an unsophisticated adversary, So do they consider

714
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:52.719
all of us an unsophisticated adversary?
I just thought that was interesting. That

715
01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:58.880
is interesting. Yeah, they So, in this technology, you could project

716
01:00:59.199 --> 01:01:02.000
an image of tanks on a battlefield
and it'd be one hundred percent believable.

717
01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:07.960
You could project an image of F
fifteen's flying in a squadron or F sixteens.

718
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:12.840
You could do a B two stealth
bomber and look one hundred percent believable.

719
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:19.360
You could deceive an entire battlefield with
this technology and they would never know

720
01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:23.079
the difference while the actual attacks are
taking place hundreds of miles away. They

721
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:28.440
have the technology. It's a done
deal. That's fascinating. And you know

722
01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:31.960
one aspect, and I'd love to
hear your thoughts on this of the reasons

723
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:39.360
why you know a psychological warfare e
for or at least influencing would serve them

724
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:45.000
in this arena it's to make us
believe that there are or let us believe

725
01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:51.840
that there are alien spacecraft visiting here. Like I think of Area fifty one,

726
01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:54.880
for example, when before the CIA
and it was big news that you

727
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:59.039
know, they admitted Area fifty one
was real. If I would talk to

728
01:01:59.079 --> 01:02:00.639
Area fifty one about people, they
would say, oh, that's not real,

729
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:04.199
there's no alien base. And I
would say, well, it's not

730
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:07.039
alien. I mean, it's top
secret aircraft is what they're doing. But

731
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:12.840
they were skeptical because of this attachment
to aliens and UFOs and so a lot

732
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:15.960
of people didn't believe it existed.
And then when it comes out, they're

733
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:19.079
like, oh, wow, it's
real. And of course I've been telling

734
01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:22.559
you that for years. So for
instance, with Area fifty one, it

735
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:28.719
worked. This comes from Bill Scott, so I'm not making this up either.

736
01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:32.039
But he talked about how, as
you know, the U two spyplane

737
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:37.480
in nineteen fifty five was developed for
the CIA, and the A twelve,

738
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:43.400
which became the SR seventy one,
was originally a CIA project. So it's

739
01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:46.760
not just the Air Force that's involved
in this. We have other intelligence agencies

740
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:53.280
also involving, and so these projects
are getting cross bread and overlapping. You

741
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:58.519
could have something operated by the CIA
that the US Air Force doesn't have any

742
01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:02.119
knowledge of. It could be an
NRO program, National Reconnaissance Office, it

743
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:07.440
could be an NSA program. And
when you mix all these together, if

744
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:15.559
there's a sighting of something, they
absolutely will use the extraterrestrial card to cover

745
01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:19.920
their own deep black programs. And
as Bill Scott said, they've been doing

746
01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:22.599
this for fifty years, why would
they stop now? And Who's Bill Scott?

747
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:28.039
Bill Scott is the former Rocky Mountain
editor of avih week Space Technology.

748
01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:35.119
He spent at least twenty years tracking
down these black programs, an entire career

749
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:38.880
of being on the inside and interviewing
people who have an inside knowledge of this,

750
01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:44.079
engineers, test pilots, people who've
worked on the Black World, people

751
01:03:44.079 --> 01:03:46.920
who've worked on the A twelve,
people who worked on Black Star program.

752
01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:52.639
He talked about how some of these
programs are nothing more than scapegoats where they

753
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:57.800
charge time to another program, but
they build it on something else that goes

754
01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:01.760
on. But basically, he said
that we're dealing with a four hundred piece

755
01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:05.239
puzzle, but we only have two
hundred of the pieces, so it's our

756
01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:10.960
job to piece this together. But
what they're doing is the intelligence agencies,

757
01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:15.199
they're throwing mud into the works.
They're throwing a wrench into the works,

758
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.559
and they're making it difficult for all
of us to piece this thing together.

759
01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:24.920
So they'll, by no means will
they have any problem trying to use the

760
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:28.079
ET card to hide their own black
programs. They're going to do it.

761
01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:30.800
And so when you hear about something
the very next day you see on the

762
01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:40.039
supermarket checkout tabloids UFO citing alien involved, and the intelligence agencies are promoting this

763
01:04:41.679 --> 01:04:45.239
which as a way to hide their
own projects. Yes, I mean,

764
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.239
of course, I talk a lot
about the Doughty situation, the Doughty case.

765
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:55.119
You know Doty who worked for Air
Force Office of Special Investigations at Kurentland

766
01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:58.199
Air Force Base, who says that's
what he did. You know, he

767
01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:01.800
invented all of these these stories to
make this guy, you know across the

768
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:08.599
street, an engineer, believe that
these thinks were UFOs and aliens to cover

769
01:05:08.719 --> 01:05:13.800
up what they were really doing there. That's the only kind of blatant admission

770
01:05:13.840 --> 01:05:17.000
we have from anyone. And he
really, at least as far as anyone

771
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:23.920
can tell didn't get in trouble for
what he was doing, which you know,

772
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:27.719
it's hard to say. He's lied
about many, many, many things,

773
01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:30.920
so it's hard to say for sure
just take his word for it,

774
01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:34.760
but that lends credence to perhaps he
really what did do all of this at

775
01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:40.920
the beheads of his superiors. Well, let me give you another example,

776
01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:45.000
Alejandro. As you know, January
fifth, two thousand wasn't a watershed event.

777
01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:48.840
This was a world famous, made
news all around the world. This

778
01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:55.159
is when at least three separate police
officers and a miniature golf course owner by

779
01:05:55.159 --> 01:05:58.960
the name of Melvern Knowle, who
is coming home from one of his truck

780
01:05:59.039 --> 01:06:04.719
driving he saw what looked like a
single story ranch with a penthouse on top

781
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:09.960
flight directly over his miniature golf course. But then what's interesting is we have

782
01:06:10.639 --> 01:06:16.360
three separate triangle sightings associated with this
particular event. One police officer, Craig

783
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:26.039
Stevens extremely reliable. Now this is
from the Collinsville Journal January six, two

784
01:06:26.119 --> 01:06:30.440
thousand, back in two thousand,
so I'm quoting my sources here. And

785
01:06:30.519 --> 01:06:33.239
what he said is I took his
drawing. I think you have a copy

786
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.480
of the drawing. I do.
I'm looking at it. He describes this

787
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:43.159
craft in great detail, kind of
an arrowhead, triangular shaped craft with a

788
01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:47.639
strobing light that strode from left to
right in the back. And let me

789
01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:51.800
just read you really quickly what this
newspaper article says. His officer says he

790
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:58.559
is ninety eight percent sure object was
experimental or military. Then he goes on

791
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:04.239
as this craft flew over his location
by his squad car. Officer Stephen stated

792
01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:10.800
that the craft tried to quote camouflage
itself against the night sky end quote and

793
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:15.239
was quote projecting the starfield above it
on the underside. Alejandro, this is

794
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:20.920
exactly what you would expect if you're
using electrochromic panels, where you can blend

795
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:26.320
in with the background, essentially causing
yourself to become invisible. It's a man

796
01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:30.480
made technology that was talked about in
the mid nineteen nineties and pulper science.

797
01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:34.159
It's already been done, it's already
been fielded. Well, I just got

798
01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:40.360
back from NAB and of course National
Association of Broadcasters, where it's all av

799
01:07:40.639 --> 01:07:44.079
kind of equipment, and every year
the big deal is, you know,

800
01:07:44.199 --> 01:07:50.679
the bigger, lighter, skinnier screens
and they're so huge now and they're so

801
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:57.039
thin and light. I think they've
even talked about a new TV coming out

802
01:07:57.039 --> 01:08:00.519
where it's like a piece of plastic, So you put this piece of plastic

803
01:08:00.519 --> 01:08:05.679
and you can project whatever you want
exactly exactly. They have made the breakthrough.

804
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:10.719
They can put any image on the
bottom if they want to. It

805
01:08:10.719 --> 01:08:15.000
could be daylight, it could be
clouds, it could be trees, it

806
01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:17.479
could be anything, and it would
completely blend in. That's what this officer

807
01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:21.760
is stating. He said he's ninety
eight percent. I believe he's corrects.

808
01:08:23.359 --> 01:08:27.159
He's nailed it. He's got it. Yep, go ahead and go ahead.

809
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:29.199
I was just going to say,
you know, getting back to another

810
01:08:29.239 --> 01:08:31.720
point that you were making, is
that a lot of people don't realize stealth

811
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:40.600
technology. Area fifty one was created
by Lockheed for the CIA. And although

812
01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:45.800
stealth technology we know it and talk
about it, and we see stealth fighters

813
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:48.279
and we think of the military and
the Air Force with stealth, it was

814
01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:55.159
actually you know, nro CIA projects. So is that what you think these

815
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:59.920
are? These are you know,
device or essentially craft where they can obs

816
01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:05.720
unnoticed. Okay, let's talk about
some real quick origins in history. The

817
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:13.760
modern day. Portion of stealth actually
started in October nineteen seventy three with the

818
01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:17.880
Israeli air Campaign also known as the
Jan Kipper War, where a number of

819
01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:26.279
American Allied F four fantoms were shot
down and the US government provided the Israeli

820
01:09:26.279 --> 01:09:30.319
Air Force with the four fantoms and
a number of these aircraft were shot down.

821
01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:33.279
So the Pentagon, the DoD they
try to figure out, what can

822
01:09:33.319 --> 01:09:36.520
we do to improve our odds?
What can we do to solve this situation.

823
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:41.479
Our pilots are getting shot down,
Israeli pilots were losing planes. What

824
01:09:41.479 --> 01:09:45.479
can we do? So in nineteen
seventy four, DARPA and the US Air

825
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:49.840
Force came together to put together something
called Project Harvey, and that was to

826
01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:56.079
design, develop, and test fly
a low observable stealth aircraft. There were

827
01:09:56.239 --> 01:10:01.760
five aerospace contractors involved. Eventually that
was boiled down to two, including Northrop

828
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:06.479
and Lockheed. Lockheed won the contract
with their Have Blue with Bill Park at

829
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:12.079
the controls December first, nineteen seventy
seven at Groom Lake. Ben Rich was

830
01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:15.000
there on the test flight and also
Kelly Johnson, who was retained as a

831
01:10:15.039 --> 01:10:24.600
consultant after he retired in nineteen seventy
five, Northrop lost the contract and their

832
01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:31.439
project was called the XST Experimental Survivable
Test Bed. And Alejandro that one image

833
01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:35.279
I showed you with the card stock
model, that is the Northrop XST that

834
01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:41.760
was the losing competitor to Lockheed's Have
Blue. From there it developed into the

835
01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:45.079
F one seventeen, a stealth fighter. And I really think that this is

836
01:10:45.119 --> 01:10:49.840
the jumping off point of a lot
of these black programs, including the Triangles,

837
01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:56.039
the Boomerangs. Similar to when the
Reagan build up started in nineteen eighty

838
01:10:56.039 --> 01:11:00.479
one, so eighty one to eighty
nine, we had this huge exponential growth

839
01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:05.439
in black programs. Uh, this
is exactly when the Hudson Valley growth took

840
01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:10.479
place as well, So side by
side, it's a it's a complete comparison.

841
01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:14.800
You can see the exponential growth of
funding in the black world happen exactly

842
01:11:14.840 --> 01:11:18.079
when Reagan took office. These programs
just started getting funding left and right.

843
01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:23.880
And even Aviation Week said eight years
of the Reagan administration were very good to

844
01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:28.439
the black world. Very interesting.
We are out of time. It makes

845
01:11:28.520 --> 01:11:33.279
uh, it makes a lot of
sense too, So it's just absolutely fascinating.

846
01:11:33.319 --> 01:11:36.479
I always have such a fun time
talking to you. Thank you so

847
01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:42.199
much for coming on the show.
No problem. So where can people go

848
01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:46.359
to converse with you or see more? You can find me on Facebook or

849
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:54.399
you can email me at AU R
O R A C A, Dais and

850
01:11:54.520 --> 01:12:00.239
dog the number five at aol dot
com. So it's auroraceadfive aol dot com.

851
01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:01.840
If you want to copy the blueprints, hit me up with an email

852
01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:05.279
and I'll send you the blueprints.
Awesome, Thank you so much. I

853
01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:09.119
think it's a great service you do
by providing those. By the way,

854
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:13.560
No problem. Thanks a lot on
Larndrew. Thank you so much to Michael

855
01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:16.359
for being on the show. Amazing
stuff. He's always so much fun to

856
01:12:16.359 --> 01:12:20.960
have on the show, so knowledgeable
and you know you can tell accuracy and

857
01:12:21.079 --> 01:12:26.439
sourcing is so important to him,
which is always important when you're reporting or

858
01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:30.920
researching and journalism. It's important to
show that you're just not pulling this stuff

859
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:34.119
right out of here, you know
what, like so many do. Unfortunately,

860
01:12:34.600 --> 01:12:39.439
he's a great researcher. He's a
lot of fun and I'm so happy

861
01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:42.720
to have him back on the show. Amazing to hear that it was seven

862
01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:47.159
years since we talked. That's crazy. Anyway, lots of cool stuff going

863
01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:51.279
on. You can check out the
UFO Congress. We posted some really cool

864
01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:57.079
stuff, so, for instance,
we've got some new products at the store.

865
01:12:57.319 --> 01:13:01.920
Also on the YouTube page we posted
the EB Awards ceremony, so you

866
01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:06.840
can see that. Congratulations to the
winners there and you can see who those

867
01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:11.279
winners are. Are really cool and
you get to see their talk. Also,

868
01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:14.039
we've got Michael Carter up. I've
had him a couple times on the

869
01:13:14.039 --> 01:13:17.840
show. Just a wonderful person.
You can find those at the video portal.

870
01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:21.880
So remember the UFO Congress Video Portal
where you can watch hundreds of videos

871
01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:27.479
for just a few bucks a month. Really cool stuff, so check all

872
01:13:27.560 --> 01:13:30.039
that out. You can go to
Ufocongress dot com. Of course, everything

873
01:13:30.079 --> 01:13:32.560
that we talked about at the beginning
of the show, all of that news

874
01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:38.520
you can find out at Openminds dot
tv. You can find the Lovable Martin

875
01:13:38.600 --> 01:13:43.600
Willis at Podcast UFO. And I
also want to thank Caleb Hanks for the

876
01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:46.600
opening and the close music. I
want to thank Systematics for the bumper music,

877
01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:53.000
and of course, as always,
I want to thank you the lovable

878
01:13:53.159 --> 01:15:00.159
listeners for joining us here today.
Until next time, Audio smooth chutto was moss