S What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another edition of Let's
Ask Paul, the podcast where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you
want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related. On today's episode,
we're gonna be answering some questions that were submitted and we're going to do
our best to try to answer these questions for folks. But remember, if
you've got questions that you want to ask me here Let's Ask Paul, all
you got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com. It's a very
simple portal. You go there and you just simply fill in your information and
click that submit button. It'll come to me and I will do my best
to answer those questions for you, either in a podcast like today or in
an email. Either way, I will try to get an answer to you
so that you have a better understanding of obviously what you're asking, and we
want to make sure that we give you the information that we need to give
you. Okay, all right, folks, so again, welcome to this
episode. We're going to dig into some of the questions here and hopefully we
can answer these for the fine folks out there. Okay, so let's see
here the first question we have submitted here, and then let's ask Paul episode
it says, says Hi Paul, Hope, all is well. I'm a
fast tracked student and I have a quick question about some work a contractor did
at our facility. We have a three phase twenty eight brand circuits applying at
overhead door. Existing We asked the contractor to add a circuit to supply a
dock lift. When they got all done, we found that they tapped off
the line side of the existing disconnecting means for the overhead door to feed the
line side of their disconnect switch for the lift. The lugs allow for two
wires in the existing disconnect, and this is done within ten feet of each
other. Okay. My questions are as follows. Would a tap off the
line side of an existing disconnect, having the same size wire be protected by
the same circ breaker be considered a tap at all or just simply a junction
extending the brand circuit? Is this a code violation by any means? Thank
you for your help. Okay, great question. This gets asked on various
levels at different times, kind of similar applications. Now, I don't consider
this a tap. If if it's the same size and you're extending it over
then the only thing that I will remind you is that you have to obviously
protect those conductors at their opacity. It's just multiple loads on a single brand
circuit. Now, what you have to be careful is if, for example,
the garage door was the instruction says it had to be an individual brand
circuit means it can't supply any other loads but that load. So I'm assuming
this is not the case, and you just have multiple loads on a single
brand circuit. Now, the thing to remind you is you got to be
compliant with two ten dot twenty three and ultimately you have to protect that conductor
at its opacity. So if the combined load between the lift and the garage
door opener combined can exceed the rating of the branch circuit, then that would
be a problem. Obviously, the overc device is going to trip if it's
pulling more load. You know, say it's set for twenty amps, but
you've got you got a lift that could pull twelve, and you've got the
garage door that could pull twelve, and you try to operate them at the
same time. You're going to have an issue. Now the overcurrent protective device
is going to activate as it should, and that will clear the device.
But again it's to me, it would still be a violation of the intent
of two ten dot twenty three if that was the case, because when you
read two ten dot twenty three, and by the way, I'm in the
National Electrial, I'm in the twenty twenty three addition for those that are following
along, it says in the charging statement of permissible loads, and this is
for multiple outlet brand circuits. And again, remember, folks, when we
say multiple outlets, we're not just talking about receptacles. Okay, it is
any point in the system. If you go look up the definition of outlet,
and this would be exactly described in two situations here, whereas the lift
and the garage door opener would be that situation. We have two separate outlets,
okay. It says, in no case, shall the load exceed the
brand circuit amp pure rating period. That's the very first sentence, and then
it goes on to say, well, a brand circuit's applying two or more
outlets or receptacles, okay, shall shall supply only the loads specific specified according
to the size in accordance with two ten dot twenty three A through E and
the summarized in two ten dot twenty four. So that's a lot of information
and you get a lot of permissive allowances here, right, But at the
end of the day, you have to make sure that you're not going to
be exceeding the branch circuit load. And so for a twenty amp, for
example, if you look in the summary, okay, uh, and you
see what's going it's going on with it, it'll tell you that let's see
here for twenty amps, it's telling you that the maximum load is twenty amps.
And of course you know two ten dot twenty three all those different rules.
So hey, at the end of the day, just make sure your
load is not going to be exceeding. We hear this all the time,
right. A good example of this would be supplying it in a dwelling.
I can kind of put it to where people can relate a little bit.
If I'm running a twenty anp brand circuit to a receptacle that's underneath the sink,
and it's supplying a garbage disposer and a dishwasher. If the combined load
doesn't exceed the twenty amp circuit. Then that's the load. The brand circuit
doesn't see anything, it doesn't It only sees load. So if combined,
they're not exceeding it. And we're not going to go into details of whether
it's you know, you have the limitations you got to be aware of and
two ten dot twenty three when it comes to cordon plug connected versus fixed okay,
and those type of things. But at the end of the day,
in my example, a garbage disposer and a a dishwasher, right then you're
not going to be utilizing to ten do twenty three b too, because that
says utilization equipment fastened the place. It says the total rating of utilization equipment
fastened in place other than luminaires, okay, shall not exceed fifty percent of
the brand circuit. INMPUR rating, where lighting units cordon plug connect you listen,
equipment not fastened to place or both are also supplied. Well, that's
not the case here. Both of those are fixed in place. They're not
connected to cordon plug connected that is not fastened in place, So this rule
doesn't apply, and so I can load that thing up to twenty amps.
Okay, Neither one of those things are a continuous load. So that's not
something that needs to creep in by some folks, right, So this is
no different. If the lift and the garage door opener are not going to
exceed the brand circuit rating, then I don't see a problem with it.
And if you sizing the conductors from the first disconnect to on the line side
to the second one, and they're both the same size conductor that's rated for
twenty ampiers and it's protected by overcurrent protection device that's twenty ampiers, that I
really don't see any harm or any foul in that scenario. The overcurrent device
is going to do what it's supposed to do and it's protecting those conductors at
their capacity. Where you'll run into problems if you don't check those name plates
and you don't know what you're doing, or if it says in the instructions
that that garage door, which is the original thing, says that it has
to be supplied by an individual brand circuit, then you go look up the
definition of individual brand circuit and you realize that it can't handle other things,
right, So that becomes where you have another issue. So you're not going
to know that. I guess unless you look at the installation instructions for the
garage door, and chances are it's existing, so you probably have no idea
where that is. But you know you're due diligence. I guess would be
to try to contact the manufacturer and make sure other than that it's all protected.
So I don't I don't see any problem with any of that. Okay,
that's the best I can give you on that. Again, remember these
are my opinions. Use them at your own risk, and you know it's
uh, do your own due diligence on that. But that's my best advice
I can give you for that. All Right, to see here, do
we have another question? Let's see here looks like we do here kind of
another submission. So let's say, hey, Paul, quick question about the
required brand circuit for receptacles in dwelling unit garages under the twenty seventeen inc.
Okay, now it goes on, but I want to make sure that everybody
out there listening, this is the way to do it. Okay, if
you're we're obviously in the twenty twenty three most you know, states are going
to be adopting it in the next year or so, and there's quite a
handful that already are on the twenty twenty three. When you send me questions
on Paul Abernathy dot com, my responses are now going to be on the
twenty twenty three and less you tell me otherwise. So this is a good
example where the person that's send it in is letting me know that their question
is dealing with the twenty seventeen a NEC okay, So that's important that you
make that distinction when you're sending in something for me to review. Okay.
It goes on to say NEC two ten dot eleven C four and two ten
fifty two G one okay, So that's under the twenty seventeen edition. We'll
go look at those and says what is your view on this is? Is
it one required circuit or two? The part that I feel leaves room for
discussion is where it says in addition to other parts of this section. Now,
remember when it says other parts of this section means there are other requirements
in that section like small appliance, brand circuits, laundry circuits, you know
those type of things. Uh, those That's what it means when it says
other parts of this section. It's the whole section, Okay. It says,
is that in addition to meaning add it to the other required brand circuits
or in addition to as in, you need another brand circuit. I know,
the twenty twenty three code seems to make it more clear. As always.
Thank you for all you do for the electrical trade. Okay, thank
you for the question. So what we've got to do is we will not
assume twenty twenty three. We will go back and look at twenty seventeen because
obviously we can look at a later editions and see where, you know,
the code panel might have added clarity to something right in making something a little
easier to understand, and of course you can kind of get the intent of
where it was supposed to go, that type of thing. But we won't
leap to that assumption. We'll just go look it up. Okay. So
the first thing we're talking is two ten dot eleven, right, and you
look at two ten dot eleven, and you'll go down and you're going to
see there's a C one, C two, C three, and C four.
So this question is about C four. Let me read it to you
now. It says, in addition the number of brand circuits required by other
parts of this section. So this means that the garage branch circuit is in
addition to bathroom brand circuits that you've got to run, laundry brand circuits that
you've got to run, small appliance brand circuit you have to run, and
in this case, it's in addition to any other branch circuit that you might
have in the garage, let's say lighting circuits. Okay, So this is
saying in addition to the number of brand circuits required by other parts of this
section. And again, remember when it says this section, it's talking about
all the other requirements in two ten dot eleven. To be more specific,
Okay, it goes on to say at least one one hundred and twenty volt
twenty ant brand circuit shall be provided to supply Oh excuse me. It says
in addition to the number of brand circuits required by this part of the section.
It says at least one one hundred and twenty volt. Yeah, that's
right. Okay, twenty anpure brand circuit shall be installed to supply receptacle outlets
in attached garages and in detached garages with power by the way, this circuit
shall have no other outlets. Okay, So what this means is this talking
about what it says it's to you have to have at least one brand circuit
to that needs to be installed to supply receptacle outlets in the attached garage.
Now it does go on to clarify this in later editions, Okay, but
what this is basically seeing under the twenty seventeen is any of those receptacles in
that garage can be on this twenty amp brand circuit it specifically says shall be
installed to supply receptacle outlets in In fact, so this is brawl, okay.
So I'll give you the other references that he gave to ten dot fifty
two G one in a minute. But let's talk about this. So in
the twenty seventeen code, we had a little bit of a joggle here from
the twenty seventeen to the twenty twenty, which we'll look at so I can
explain the difference, and then the twenty twenty three. In the twenty seventeen
code, this is very convenient for folks that put things in the garage,
So I have to have it that one twenty amp at least one. Can
I have more than one? Absolutely, but I have to have at least
one, and that twenty AMP is installed to supply the receptacle outlets in the
garage. So I could do that for the receptacles that are required for each
vehicle bay, which is kind of what they're talking about in two ten point
fifty two g one those receptacles. But under the twenty seventeen code, I
could still also do garage door opener receptacles in the ceiling, right if I
wanted to do that. Okay, So this basically just says I can that
at least one to supply receptacle outlets. Now, can I have additional receptacle
outlets in there? Absolutely I could, and I can have a separate brand
circuit for that. That's not the intent of what we're trying to go with
here. But you have to at least have the one and it shall be
installed to supply receptac outlets in attached gridge. Now, many people read that
is saying that you have to have at least one to do all those receptacles,
but obviously we can have more than one. Okay, But this also
pushed us that all receptacles in the garage had to be on a twenty amp
circuit, and that's not really what they intended, but that's the way it
can read, right, So that's where we're at. First. Now you
have to go look at what it says under the twenty twenty edition to see
where this changed. Okay, so let's go look at the twenty twenty editions.
So let me get back real quick, and I'll just go to the
twenty twenty and we'll give it a look. Here, So to ten out
eleven, see four, okay, So here's where we start to get a
little clarity. So you understand what it said in the twenty twenty I mean
twenty seventeen all receptacles okay for this twenty amp brand circuit at least one,
which meant again you can have more than one. It's because it said at
least one. But it's very clear that the receptacles are going to be on
the twenty ant brand circuits. All right. So here's what it says in
twenty twenty, and there was a change. It says, in addition to
the number of brand circuits require by other parts of this section, at least
one, one hundred and twenty volt twenty Ampure brand circuit shall be installed supply
receptacle outlets required by two ten to fifty two G one. Okay, So
what this was introducing and say, hey, look, this is only for
those receptacles that are for doing the vehicle bay right in two ten dot fifty
two G one and I will go look at that. So now that we're
in the twenty and it makes specific reference to that, I'll go look at
it. And so in two ten dot fifty two G one. Okay,
we'll just go look at it and i'll read it to you. So G
one it says in each attached garage and each detached garage with electric power says
at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in each vehicle bay and not more
than five and a half feet above the floor. So now in the twenty
twenty, because it makes reference to two ten point eleven C four and it
can only supply the receptacles that are demanded depending on how many vehicle bays you
have under the two ten fifty two G one, then that means you could
not do that branch that twenty eight brand circuit that's supplying those specific vehicle bay
receptacles that are required if you have a three car garage, three vehicle base,
three receptacles. One is going to be within the footpimp footpint footprint of
each vehicle bay. But they can't apply to the ones that are in the
ceiling because that is over five and a half feet, right. So but
nothing says you can't run an additional circuit in there, right and supply those
fifteen AMP twenty AMP doesn't doesn't matter, okay, all right, So that's
where we're at for that, Okay, So then let's kind of move forward.
So now you see where is a shift. So the twenty seventeen,
all receptacles could be on that a at least one twenty AMP that's what you
want to do. In the twenty twenty, they restrict that twenty anp brand
circuit at least one. That's to supply the receptacles in each vehicle bay,
and nothing else can be on that but those receptacles. But then you could
also have other brand circuits in there if you want. I mean, nothing
says you can't have two and three and four and five additional brands. You
have to at least one, Okay. So that's where we're at in the
twenty twenty So now let's speed too. Since we brought it up, let's
speed to the twenty twenty three, because we want to, you know,
kind of go in and finish this chain of thought here. In the twenty
twenty three edition of C four, it added additional language to clarify. Okay,
now all the other language it says is now is this kind of also
reverts a little bit. Here's what it says in twenty twenty three. It
says, in addition to the number of brand circuits required by other parts of
this section, at least one one hundred and twenty volt twenty ampier brand circuit
shall be installed to supply receptacle outlets, including those required by two ten dot
fifty two G one for attached garages and detached garages with electric power. Right
this circuit, I'll have no other outlets. And when it says no other
outlets, it really means lighting outlets and all that kind of stuff. This
is just for the receptacles. Now you notice the change here. Okay,
The change here was that it's saying, hey, I'm going to go back
to the kind of the language in the twenty seventeen in a way, and
I'm going to let you do the receptacles that are required by two ten dot
fifty two G one, which is one for each vehicle bay. But now
I'm also going to let you because I say including those require means that I'm
going to let you have at least one, and you can do the other
receptacles again in the ceiling, not a problem. So that's kind of where
we're at. And then it goes on one additional step here in the twenty
twenty three it says, additional brand circuits rated fifteen amp years or greater should
I be permitted to serve receptacle outlets other than those required by two ten point
fifty two G one. So this means you can have other circuits in there.
Now. There was nothing really that precluded that in the previous editions,
but the wording was pretty poor because it made people think, Wow, the
only additional ones I can put in there is additional twenty amp brand circuits.
I couldn't run a fifteen in there. Maybe I'm running a fifteen amp in
there to to do a central vacuum or something that was in there. And
the intent was always allowing you to do additional it was only requiring at least
one of the twenty amp to serve the loads that it specifies those receptacle outlets.
But if you had, for example, a piece of equipment that you
were supplying in there that it was less than twenty, then it always was
the intent that it was okay. So under the twenty seventeen to summarize this
one for you, that twenty an brand circuit that you run in there can
do any receptacle you want in there, even the ones for the vehicle bay
and ones in a ceiling whatever. And the twenty twenty edition that twenty brand
circuit under C four is the minimum of one is designed to supply the receptacles
that are only for each vehicle bay. Doesn't mean you can't have other circuits
in there, obviously, how would you not do that? You get me?
I mean, if people are going to argue the intent, if you
look at in the twenty twenty, if that brand circuit can only supply the
receptacles that are not higher than five and a half feet, then you know
I've met that rule. And if I ran that at least one to meet
that rule, then I'm done. I meant the rule. So if I
want to bring additional brand circuits in there, that's that's not a problem.
I mean, obviously the receptacles have to be GFCI protected they're in the garage
and all that kind of stuff, but that's not a problem. And I
think people got lost in those semantics, and that's why the twenty twenty three
just had to clarify. I personally don't really believe that it doesn't allow you
to do it in twenty twenty, just like it didn't allow you to do
it in twenty seventeen. You could have additional circuits fifteen AMP, twenty amp,
whatever you want, as long as you meet the rule itself, anything
additional is perfectly fine. And I think that we sometimes make code changes every
three years to clarify stuff like that, just to make people say, look,
it's not a new rule. It's basically saying, hey, I just
want you to know. We have people that argue this, and they just
made it clear in twenty twenty three that you can have additional brand circuits fifteen
AMP years a greater. I believe you could all always do that. Now
there's a code purist that say, well, that's not what the code says.
Yeah, but if you go back and read the intent, the intent
was never to preclude additional brand circuits in the garage. It was just to
make sure we had at least one dedicated for the receptacles for the vehicle base
and all that kind of stuff. And then people said, well, wait
a minute, why does it only have to do the vehicle bay. I
mean, why can't it do different Why can't it do others? So that's
why the changes. But I think in your question twenty seventeen, your you
just go at it right, any receptor you want, obviously, that's you
know, you want to design it properly. But at the end of the
day, the garage door openers the chances of you using it while you're using
something else, and there's a problem. It's it's slimming none. I mean,
there are people out there that argue otherwise, but you know, I
have garage door opener that's on the same circuit as my receptacles in the garage.
When my house was built, it was fine. It was under the
Towe seventeen. Well my house was built way prior to that, but anyway,
that's how it was run. And I've never had a triple. I've
never had an issue garage roping. I'm never in there working on something and
then have the garage door opener, you know, and cause it to trip.
So again, I think a lot of people create semantics where it doesn't
need to be. Hopefully that makes sense to you. I know I like
to ramble, and people will say, Paul, you rambled too much on
that one. But you know what, I don't care. It's my show,
it's my podcast. I do what I want. Okay, So hopefully
I answered that question for you. All right, let's see here the next
question that was submitted. No I got to. By the way, tell
you folks, thanks for bearing with me your patients as I try to catch
up on these I have. Literally I don't even know, there's probably a
one hundred of these things that have been submitted trying to to, you know,
catch up, and so I appreciate all of you and your patients and
helping me as I slowly will catch up to these things. Trust me,
I will. I will get caught up on all these. But keep your
questions coming. I love answering your questions the best I can remember. Again,
these are always my opinions, and I'm just giving you an opinion and
you can take that or leave that or whatever. I do your own due
diligence and get too familiar with the codebo Okay. Next one, it says,
first of all, with Texas, with Texas finally having the twenty twenty
three code take effect, I am wondering when it actually gets implemented, would
that be based off the permit date of the home in new construction or the
date we rough in the house. I am getting conflicting information from my superiors.
Okay, that's the first question. Okay, Texas is on the twenty
twenty three. Now any permits, it's based to the permit, not the
rough date. It's based on the permit. So when you pull a permit,
that is what it's under. And again your supervisors may say that,
but you need to check with wherever the permit was pulled. So that's typically
what happens is you pull a permit and the permit is locked to whatever addition
is being enforced at the time that permit was with Now, the only time
that would be different was maybe if your permit expired at some point and the
project still had to be renewed, and the jurisdiction said, now you're renewing
it, you're going to have to do it with under whatever we're under right
now. But typically in my experience, once you lock it and you pull
that permit, you everything. It's based on what was an effect at the
time you pulled that permit. Okay, So again that's the best device I
can give you on that. You need to check with your local HJ and
see what they're enforcing, rather than listen to your superiors, because that really
means nothing. There's a lot of superiors that don't have a clue. So
what you really need to do is double check with this the municipality and see
what they're enforcing. Obviously, any new permits that would be pulled now be
under the twenty twenty three. And in some states they'll even give you a
grandfather and they'll let you pull in say they just had started enforcing the twenty
twenty three, Like in Virginia, when they do a change, they let
the customer choose for one full year if they want to go with the previous
one or they want to go to the new one, So they give them
kind of one year of grace period. That might be different because I haven't
been back in Virginia over ten years now, but that's the way it was
in our jurisdiction. We gave you that kind of the grace period. Then
after that everything had to be whatever the code cycle we were on. So
it's kind of a grace period there. Make sure you check with your jurisdiction
on that. Second of all, there we go. It says, whenever
I have bathrooms with additional receptacles such as near the toilet bar or excuse me,
toilet bar, towel bar, behind a toilet, under a makeup cabinet,
etc. And I'm assuming it me by the toilet it was a bidet
something for the bi dat or whatever. It says, Uh, unless the
homeowner pays extra for an additional dedicated circuit, I will usually wire these additional
receptacles from the nearby lighting unit. Okay. So it's not taking it from
the receptacle circuit that's supplying the counter. He's taking it from the lighting circuit
that's in there. Okay. It says this is because the bathroom circuit is
meant for just the receptacle three feet or less from the sink basin. It's
an oxymoron, sink and basin, same thing. And unless the circuit is
dedicated to one bathroom, it cannot supply other outlets in that room. That's
correct, Am I okay? With doing this like this? I don't think
we should be responsible for shelling out an additional circuit for no cost. So
I make sure these extra receptacles he calls them outlets, but receptacle outlets are
GFCI protected and go about my day. Thanks again, sir. Okay,
great question. So what we have to do is we have to go back
and look at what again, because you give a lot of you accurate information
in there. But what we need to do is go back and look and
see what it says for those brand circuits. Obviously you can have more than
one in there, right, And so since you're in Texas, we're going
to do the twenty twenty three, and we're also going to be when it
comes to brand circuits, we're also going to be in two ten out eleven
again and in this case see for dwelling, and we're going to look at
the bathroom brand circuits. So this would be C three and I don't believe
you gave a code reference and as I say, we're going to do twenty
twenty three this. Okay, here's what it says. It says C three
bathroom brand circuits. It says in addition to the number of brand circuits required
by other parts of this section. And again as I talked about earlier,
that means in addition to other brand circuits that are required by laundry, small
appliance, those type of things. It says, one or more one hundred
and twenty volt twenty ampier brand circuits shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlets
required by two to ten fifty two D. Okay, So this branch circuit
that's required is for those receptacles in two ten dot fifty two D, which
is the one that requires within three feet at the top inside edge of the
basin. It says, and any countertop or similar work surf recepticle outlets.
Such outlets shall have no such circuits shall have no other outlets. Okay,
So absolutely true. Okay, So this is your first rule if I'm running
that brand circuity, that's there at least one to supply those receptacles that are
to meet the rule of two ten point fifty two D. Okay. It
does not mean that I can't run additional brand circuits. Okay, then let's
get that out of the way first. All right, so I ran this
brand circuit and it's for those receptacles that are within three feet. You have
met the rule. The rule is met right now. If you have a
number of receptacles that are serving the countertop that would facilitate you more than one,
then you're okay to run more than one. So in your case,
it sounds like just bathroom. You just have some receptacles within three feet.
Boom, you ran your circuit, but now you are being asked to add
a receptile down low. Okay, all right, so what can I do
to that? All right? Well, you obviously know the exception, right
which says where that twenty eighth brand circuit is supplying a single bath room,
that one bathroom, then it says outlets for other equipment within the same room.
A bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in a quarters with two ten
dot twenty three B one B two. Okay. That has to do with
limitations for things that are that are in there with you know, permissible loads
and whatnot. So you're perfectly okay, under that application, right, the
installation of that twenty eight brand circuit for the receptacles for each individual bathroom,
okay, is again one of those things where if I'm going to run one
brand circuit and I'm not going to leave that brand circuit, I'm not going
to leave that bathroom, then I most certainly can supply every load in there,
again being aware of your permissible loads and whatnot, because you might have
a light heat combo and ceiling and that would be a problem. You had
to look at your permissible loads for that. But other than that, if
I am just supplying receptacles only for the countertop, and and I want to
pop out of that bathroom to hit another bathroom, and all I'm going to
do is do receptacles that are serving the countertops in that bathroom, then I
most certainly can do that. If I want to supply the brand circuit to
that single bathroom, then I can do everything just about in that bathroom,
a lighting, the receptacles, everything. Okay, I'm able to do that
now, answering your question, if nothing prohibits you from having additional branch circuits
in that bathroom, Now, this just happens that it's connected to your lighting,
right, that's not a violation. It still has to be gfc I
protected as you state you do, but it's not a violation to have it
there and come off the lighting if you want. That's perfectly fine. I
mean, just like you could run a separate brand circuit there if you want,
which you choose not to do, and that is totally up to you.
So I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing in this situation.
I really don't, okay. Now, the only thing you have to be
concerned about, right is the application of permitted loads and what's going to be
plugged into that receptacle that's down below or lower than the toilet behind the toilet.
Is it a plugging cord type of bidet? I don't know. I
know they sell these little modular things that you can buy. Is that what
it is for? Then you got to worry about because you have lighting loads
on it, and then you'll have cord and plug connected stuff on it.
Then you might need to be looking at the permissible load requirements and just be
careful and make sure you're not exceeding that. Other than that, I don't
see the hazard anywhere, and I don't see the concern. Again, as
long as your g S I protected, and you don't remember, folks,
we've done this. We've been doing this forever, right. What about that
bathroom that has a a hot tub, well, not a hot tub,
hydro massage bathtub. Okay, it's got a blower motor down underneath it,
I typically doesn't have heating it. It's the hot water. It's just a
blower. Well, we run a circuit to that all the time in the
bathroom. That's fine. Right, So again, this is kind of one
of those things that if you want to pop off of the lighting and hit
that receptacle, and that receptacle is not one of the ones that are serving
the countertop, as long as it's GFC I protected, I don't see a
problem. You could run a separate ranch circuit to it if you want it.
Fifteen AM twenty amp doesn't matter. I don't see a problem with that
either. So again, hopefully that answers your question. I think what you're
doing is perfectly fine. Others may agree to disagree, but I think it's
it's perfectly fine. Those receptacles you're adding are not within three feet of the
basin. They're not serving a countertop or a workspace. So I mean,
I'm perfectly fine, and you're protecting it with GFCI. I don't see a
problem with it though. Okay, so we'll do one more question. I
don't want to get it too long today on this episode, but we'll do
one more question. Let's see here. Okay, I think I've already answered
this question via email to the individual, but I'm going to do it here
for everybody else's edification. Here, says I go by a blank, blank
blank on TikTok. Hey don't want to give his name out. We'd like
to keep it anonymous here so you don't have to worry about you asking questions
and anybody's saying who you are, because that really doesn't matter, it says.
So what I was getting at is Tesla Chargers has a lot of people
getting confused with Article two forty dot four B. With people who are installing
nm cable on Tesla Chargers. They're using Article two forty dot four B to
supersede three thirty four dot eighty says, I know what the particular I know
what the particular article. You have three conditions that you have to meet,
and he's talking about the three conditions in two forty dot four B that you
have to meet this. I think the problem comes in as two forty dot
four B doesn't directly tell you you can't do something in regards to the rating
of the conductor. For me, I use THHN or MC so I can't
so I can take advantage of the seventy five degree CE chart. I was
hoping that maybe you could do a video on this to clarify because I keep
running into people that really know what they're doing, but they get hung up
on two forty dot four B. Thank you for your time, sincerely blank
blank blank, Okay, I think I have done a video on this over
on TikTok for those that follow us over on TikTok, it's at master the
NEEC. That's the same ticker I use on all my social media platforms,
with the exception of LinkedIn, which is just my name, Paul Abernathy.
And if you're on LinkedIn, I'd love to connect with you. That's the
business preferred platform. So let me kind of answer this question. I'm want
to make sure that I get it right here for folks, So you know,
two forty dot four B is about the overcurrent protected device and not about
the opacity of a conductor. That's first and foremost. Okay, So this
is what allows me is if you have a conductor's opacity and it doesn't correspond
if you're protecting it to an overcurrent device, two forty dot four B with
three conditions allows you to go up the next standard size overcurrent device, right,
I mean, that's we're all familiar with that. It doesn't change the
fact that you have opacity limitations on the actual conductor itself. Okay. So
for example, NMB, which is an ometallic sheet cable to dash B just
lets you know that the installation of the conductor's inside rated ninety, but you
can only use the ninety for adjustment and corrective purposes. At the end of
the day, you can never exceed that of the sixty And this is what
it tells you in three thirty four dot eighty. There's nothing in two forty
dot four B that can circumvent that. Right, as far as the ampacity
is concerned, it can exceed that of the sixty degree. Not the fact
that you can go to the next standard size overcurrent device because the code permits
it. It would still protect that conductor as long as your load does not
exceed the rating of the conductor. Okay, what is the capacity of that
specific conductor? Right, So, for example, non metallic sheet cable NNB
is rated fifty five amps for a six to awg copper under the sixty YEARY
column, and that's all the conductor can handle fifty five ams. So just
for the fact that I can go to the next standard size because a fifty
five amp over current protective device doesn't exist in two forty six A, that's
irrelevant. I don't have a problem going up to a sixty it's still going
to protect right a conductor. The problem is the conductor is only rated for
fifty five ams, and that becomes a problem. And let me show you
why when you're dealing with a Tesla charger. Now, I know there'sople out
there to say, well, I can just turn my Tesla back, I
can cut it back. But again, we're not talking about load calculations for
feeders in service, right, We're talking about the branch circuit. And I
think what six twenty five dictates to us is that we brand circuits are sized
as continuous loads, not the fact that we can have ems systems, energy
management systems or whatever that can circumvent this. I don't see where we get
any break for that, And people will argue that I just don't see where
we get a break for that. I need to size that brand circuit as
a continuous load, right, all right, So when you look at it,
typical name plate on a Tesla again, and I'm not a Tesla installer,
so bear with me. I'm going off of the research that I've done.
So the name plate is forty eight amps, which is treated as a
continuous load per Article six twenty five. Okay, Now, if you have
a name plate that's forty eight amps, you take it at one hundred and
twenty five percent because it is a continue us load. And since we're sizing
a brand circuit, we have to remember that two ten nineteen A one is
going to say with continuous loads for brand circuit, the minimum size conductor is
one hundred and twenty five percent of the continuous load one hundred percent of the
non continuous load. Well, the only load we have here is forty eight
amps is a continuous load, because that's what it says we have to do
under Article six twenty five. Okay, So we did that, we do
forty eight amps at one hundred and twenty five percent. That is sixty amps.
So my minimum size conductor opacity has to be sixty amps, and a
six non metallic SHEF cable is only good for fifty five amps. Even though
I could put it on a sixty amp breaker, my load cannot exceed that
of fifty five amps, or again can't exceed that of the sixty degree column.
So I have to have a conductor under the sixty degree column that can
handle sixty ams. And that's what it tells me in two ten nineteen A
one. So since the load is sixty ams and the conductor has to be
at least sixty ams, the six awg copper NM cable is only good for
fifty five that's not gonna work. Okay, Now the load is fifty five
amps. Could it be on a sixty amp overcurrent device? Absolutely, again,
as long as my load does not exceed that of fifty five amps under
column under the sixty year ee column. Okay, So hopefully that that makes
sense. I can't really make it any bigger picture for folks. I mean,
we can look at what it says the limitations in two forty four B.
But what I want you to realize that's in two forty right, So
that's dealing with overcurrent protective devices. We still have the opacities we have to
worry about, and a fifty five amp rated conductor can be protected by sixty
amp overcurrent protected device because a fifty five amp is not a standard size under
two forty six A, and all those rules allow me to go to the
next standard size. Okay, hopefully that makes sense to everybody, because again
there's folks out there that still may get that may get that confused, and
we want to make sure that folks don't get confused. Right, Okay,
so let's see here. I think I got time for one more that came
in, So let's see if we can get this one. Let's see here.
Hey, Paul, love your podcast. I'm a pool installer here in
Texas, and now that we're out of the twenty twenty three edition of the
National Electrical Code, I have a question. We install a lot of above
ground swimming pools that are considered permanently installed. In reading the definitions in the
twenty twenty three edition of the National Electrical Code. As I go through my
code update training. I notice something peculiar in the definition of permanently installed swimming
pools. Can you clarify this for me? I notice that the definition of
a permanently installed swimming pool no longer includes swimming pools that are installed above ground.
Can you clarify? Thanks in advance again, love the podcast. Okay,
that's it. I won't read it. The last party just says his
name. Okay, great question. And this is kind of really ironic because
I've been talking about this and I was just recently on a code panel what
we call a task group, and this was actually brought up in the task
group by Ryan Jackson. And I didn't think to submit this change. I
noticed it back when we did it on seventeen And I don't know what happened,
how it got how what. I don't know what happened. I don't
know what took place. But here's the deal. In the twenty twenty edition
of the NEEC, when it came to this definition, we had a threshold
of a water depth forty two inches that was, you know, kind of
kind of critical in determining whether something was a permanently installed pool or not.
And we had all this and we and we got rid of all this stuff
to you know, try to make it easier. So under the definitions,
if you go back and you look, and I will, I'll go read
you real quick what happened in the twenty twenty you'll get an idea of what
happened here and again it happens, and it just happens. So permanently installed
swimming pools, and of course it's waiting immersion and therapeutic pools. In the
twenty twenty edition it says this says those that are constructed in the ground or
partially in the ground, and all others capable of holding water in a depth
greater than forty two inches, and all pools installed inside of a building,
regardless of the water death, whether or not served by electrical circuits of any
nature. So it doesn't matter whether the pool has power to it or not.
You're still going to go anywhere. In the code that talks about permanently
installed pools and things like eco potential bonding, it doesn't matter whether there's power
or not. You still have to have your equotential bonding. You have to
do all that. So the power is irrelevant, okay, because you could
have power running in the ground from other sources that could leak into the pool,
So it's irrelevant whether there's power there to follow that type of rule.
But the question here is is it covered pools that are in the ground,
pools that are partially in the around, and it basically covered all other pools
that were a depth of greater than forty two inches, So it covered everything.
Now, the one thing we didn't cover in this one was the fact
that the building the pools inside of a building are considered permanent. But what
about if it's on a building, it wasn't in it. Let's say it
was on the roof. So that's something we're going to be correcting for the
twenty twenty sixth edition, by the way. But I just want to show
you what happened. Okay, in in all fairness and all you know,
transparency, we knew about the problem, but Ryan bought it up at a
meeting, and a bunch of other people bought it up too, But it
did really get inadvertently removed. And this is what's going to make it difficult
for you folks under the twenty twenty three to be able to see how you're
going to It leaves you in a weird position. Okay. So now let's
go back and read what it said under the twenty twenty three edition and you'll
see what I'm talking about. Now, remember all definitions are now moved to
article one hundred, okay, so you no longer have to go to six
eighty dot two or anywhere like that to look for a definition. They're all
now in article one hundred under the twenty twenty three makes sense, and so
that's where you're going to find permanently installed swimming pools. Okay. It's going
to be under a pool because that's the first word, just search first.
So it's going to be permanently installed. Okay. So now let me read
you what it says and see if you can't pick up the problem. And
I am going to answer your question, but I want you to hear the
problem permanently in a pool permanently installed swimming waiting, immersion and therapeutic, okay,
which is permanently installed swimming waiting, immersion therapeutic. Okay. So that's
what we're talking about. Here's the definition, because it's important. Why do
I need to know what's a permanent pool? Because there's other parts of six
point eighty that make statements about what you have to do if it's a p
installed pool, right, even with the echo, potential bonding and all this
stuff. So it's important we have to determine whether something's a permanently installed swimming
pool or not, so to listen to the code change. And this is
going to address the individual's concern says what is a permanently installed swimming pool.
It is those that are constructed or installed in the ground or partially in the
ground, and all other pools installed inside of a building, whether or not
served by electrical circuits of any nature. Do you hear what's missing? Well.
In the twenty twenty we covered all other pools which could be above ground
pool as long as the depth of the water exceeded forty two inches. But
now we don't cover above ground pools anywhere when they're considered permanent because we don't.
We only say those that are in the ground, those that are partially
in the ground, and those that are installed inside of a building. So
inadvertently it was left out. So we have nothing in the twenty twenty three
that describes a permanently installed swimming pool that would be above ground. And there's
plenty of them that clearly are permanent. Okay, they're not storable, they're
permanent. So that's important because the rules that are in the area where we
talk about storable pools are slightly different than those for permanently installed pools, and
now any above ground pool that is not considered permanent installed. The only way
that we can enforce this is to look at the storable pools, because it
says pools installed entirely on or above the ground that are intended to be stored.
But these are not to be stored. So we're in a codundrum here
if you're in the twenty twenty three edition. So it probably should have some
kind of because Texas and many people are going to be on the twenty twenty
three for a while, it should probably be some kind of emergency nature to
take place to make sure we at least get this fixed. And it might
be for all I know, Ryan might have submitted it, somebody else might
have submitted it. I got had too much on my plate. I forgot
about it, I really did. I remember talking about it and laughing about
something that happened. And I'm on this code panel. I'm not the principal,
Okay, I'm not the principal, I'm an ultimate, but hey,
I'm gonna take full responsibility. We massaged this and tried to get rid of
that forty two inch thing, but inadvertently left out above ground pools, and
so it's going to be fixed in the twenty twenty six. I can promise
you that, as well as the fact that it could be on a building
like the roof and not apply to this permanently installed as well. So that's
going to be fixed as well, because if it's not in the building,
then it's not covered. So this answers your question. You're in the twenty
twenty three you have, I would say your local AGEJA should adopt something in
writing that says that above ground pools are also covered under permanently installed swimming pools
if they're not considered storable, and then most of them won't be. They're
all framed up and everything, and there's a lot of those pools in Texas.
So that's the reason I and we have to know whether or not we
have certain rules that apply. So I would encourage any jurisdiction out there to
come up. This is an example where I am a proponent for a local
amendment. Right, people say I hate those, but this is where there's
oversight, not changing the code, but just adding additional direction because of an
oversight. Because you folks need to know how to deal with a above ground
permanently installed means it's bolted together, it's not going anywhere, it's just not
in the ground or personally in the ground. Right, But it is a
permanently installed swimming pool. And I need to make sure that all the requirements
of part two of six point eighty are going to apply, not part three,
Part two. So I encourage this if Ryan or whoever ever listens to
the podcast, and I could do it myself, we need to submit something
to get this at least in place in the twenty twenty three as TIA or
something in order to make sure that we can address above ground swimming pools.
Okay, all right, hopefully that answered your question. You are in a
condundrum and the only answer I can is to get local ruling from you HJ
and get clarification. If you're an installer out there that do above ground pools,
just do me a favor. Treat it like a primly installed swimming pool
and follow all the rules in Part one and part two of six p't eighty
even because of the oversight here, you don't treat it as a storable pool,
okay, all right, unless it is truly a storable pool. All
right. That's it. Folks, wanted to keep it under an hour.
Hopefully you got something out of that three pretty good questions, and hopefully I
gave you the best thenfo I could give you. Until next time, folks,
stay safe, blas us. And again you can always go to Paul
Abernathy dot com and submit your questions. I'm more than happy to answer them.
Until next time, Stay safe as