1 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:21,480 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trishnski, 2 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:24,160 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,760 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,960 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well. Co hosting 5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,399 today is Christopher Bedford, executive or executive editor over at the Common Sense Society, 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,439 and our guest is the one and only so rub Amari, a very 7 00:00:39,439 --> 00:00:44,479 busy man these days because he is the author of the wonderful new book Tyranny, 8 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,039 Inc. How Power, How Private Power. I'm reading the Chris just 9 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,960 opened the book for me so that I can read the subheading how Private Power 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Crushed American Liberty and what to do about it? So Rob, the book 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,280 is fantastic. Thanks so much for joining the show. It's good to be 12 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,880 back. Yeah, asolutely, So sorry. This is this is kind of 13 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:10,280 part of a long evolution that you've had over the years, from more to 14 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,280 the man of the left, to think of self described Marxists at one point, 15 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:19,640 to a man of the Catholic faith, through neo conservatism at one point, 16 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,120 and kind of now but through through your magazine compact, trying to find 17 00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:33,079 a new kind of realignment in American politics between socially conservative values American nationalism, 18 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,640 but also really caring for those who seem to have been left behind with the 19 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:44,400 economic experiments of the last thirty forty years. I guess, unless I'm mischaracterizing 20 00:01:44,439 --> 00:01:48,040 that, then correct me. But if not, then walk us through kind 21 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:52,879 of the journey that brought you from where you were to where you are now. 22 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,319 Yeah. I mean when I when I was a college student, I 23 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:00,239 was on the on the hard left. It's you know, because I've written 24 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:05,439 a memoir, my nastiest critics like used that against me. So they're like, 25 00:02:05,799 --> 00:02:07,960 oh, use at this and at that. But if you look at 26 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:14,479 a lot of people's intellectual development, having a kind of socialist phase in college, 27 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,719 it's a it's a pretty it's not an exotic thing. It's a pretty 28 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,319 mundane thing, you know. And since then, I became two things at 29 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:25,199 once. I became more of a conventional small c conservative, you know. 30 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,000 I went to work. My first job out of law school was not to 31 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:32,240 be a lawyer, blessedly, was to work for the Wall Street Journal editorial 32 00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:38,120 page, which is sort of the bastion of let's say, Paul Ryan ideology. 33 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:43,759 Right, it's a conservatism that's pretty queasy about even touching cultural issues. 34 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,159 You know, it's all about lowering the marginal tax rate and foreign policy hawkism, 35 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:53,319 honestly. And so that was my entree to the conservative world was through 36 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,960 that end of the of the right kind of establishment, right. And then 37 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,639 you know, alongside that, I became a Roman Catholic, and as I 38 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:05,639 became more Roman Catholic, I also that just happened to be around the time 39 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:12,159 of the Trump phenomenon, and so I became more populist friendly because the more 40 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:17,159 I tried, the more it seemed to me that that kind of Paul Ryan 41 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:27,319 attempts to blend the Catholic faith with basically kind of market fundamentalism. That was 42 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,280 an unstable synthesis that the Church is thinking on economic affairs is more complex. 43 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,280 It is not obviously socialists, and the Church is pretty resolutely opposed to that, 44 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:46,719 but it's thought market fundamentalist either. It emphasizes solidarity, it emphasizes kind 45 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:53,280 of the economics rights of people to live in the basic conditions of human flourishing 46 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:58,759 that people need. It does support labor unions, in the nineteenth century, 47 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,680 Pope Leo the Our Teams wrote a famous encyclical Rareum Novarum, which set off 48 00:04:03,759 --> 00:04:10,360 the sort of modern Catholic social teaching tradition, in which he recognized that as 49 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,400 a result of the Industrial Revolution, this vast disparity in power had emerged between 50 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,439 working people and their employers in most industries, and so he supported the idea 51 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:26,279 of working people banding together to try to collectively bargain. So anyway, I 52 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,600 mean, that's that's really the evolution. It's not nearly as kind of haphazard 53 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:39,439 and frequent as my worst enemies make it sound like. You know, I 54 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:46,120 became a Catholic, and the underlying kind of political economic philosophy of tyranny ink, 55 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:51,560 even if I don't constantly refer to it, is that Catholic vision of 56 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,839 markets are fine. Markets are good, They have their place. They can 57 00:04:56,879 --> 00:05:01,680 be pretty useful at allocating goods and services efficiently and capital for sure. But 58 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:08,519 markets aren't the be all, end all, and sometimes markets can be abused, 59 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,199 and they can be they can bear down pretty hard on ordinary people, 60 00:05:12,199 --> 00:05:16,319 and in those cases, you know, there's a political responsibility to address that. 61 00:05:16,519 --> 00:05:21,519 So that's the evolution. I think it's it has far greater inner integrity 62 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:27,399 if you're if you're willing to view it charitably and not abuse the fact that 63 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,399 I've written a memoir, you know, as some people do to be like 64 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:33,439 ah, he changes his mind. You've just always been a bleeding heart. 65 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,639 You've always been someone who feels for the people. Whether it's I mean, 66 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,600 all those things kind of fit into that, someone who's concerned. And also 67 00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:44,120 it's I think it's okay to be reactionary in some ways. I've gone through 68 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,839 most of my life reacting to things. That's that's true, go ahead song, 69 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,439 No, that's it. And I also, I mean it just the 70 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:56,759 idea that you know, you would have the same opinions about, you know, 71 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,680 taxes, free trade, or any issue, no matter what the evidence 72 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,600 of history and the daily headlines present to you. That to me seems like 73 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,319 a more foolish posture to take than you know, being willing to look at 74 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,240 certain things and change your mind. Like I definitely was cheering the post nine 75 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,279 eleven Wars when I was at the Wall Street Journal, But in my defense, 76 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:26,439 I was in my twenties, mid twenties and late twenties compared to some 77 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,040 others, but we had to look at the outcome, and they turned out 78 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,720 pretty terribly. We wasted trillions of dollars, ten thousands of American lives, 79 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,920 blood and treasure, and of course all the devastation brought over there, and 80 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:41,560 what we got for it was, you know, Iranian domination of Iraq, 81 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:46,720 statelessness in the Middle East, and civil wars and a migrant crisis in Europe. 82 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,160 You got to change your mind if you if you're honest, I think 83 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,800 I think you've just done an admirable job knocking down the strawman. A lot 84 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,920 of people build to attack you so rob especially when you made your point about 85 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,319 about markets, which I think if people read you charitably in good faith, 86 00:07:01,519 --> 00:07:05,800 is obviously there. But the question I wanted to ask about the title of 87 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,279 the book, I was actually surprised that in the subhead you use the word 88 00:07:10,319 --> 00:07:14,879 liberty, because as you're mentioning Paul Ryan kind of going hearkening back to the 89 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,439 era of Paul Ryan, sort of that wing maybe people would call a fusionist 90 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:25,959 of the conservative movement, constantly trotting out the word liberty and then using it, 91 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,279 I would say for or even sometimes dressing it in this justice of the 92 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,120 church or in the context of the church. But what is your definition of 93 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:40,279 liberty as opposed to tyranny if those two things are sort of in contrast, 94 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,519 but then also just liberty on its own as well. Yeah, I mean, 95 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:48,040 that's that's a huge and big question. But we could start with the 96 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:56,759 definition that I don't mean to keep picking on him, but he's he's a 97 00:07:56,759 --> 00:08:01,879 good punching bag. I'm sorry. Paul Ryan would say that liberty is basically 98 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:07,000 the absence of coercion or restraints, and mainly what he means by that is 99 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,519 governmental restraints and give governmental coercion. So yeah, I mean, I think 100 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,519 someone like Paul Ryan would say that liberty means the absence of undue restraints, 101 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:22,240 the absence of coercion, and he would mainly describe coercion as you know, 102 00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:28,839 what government does to us. The thesis of the book, and here I'll 103 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:31,759 get to my definition of liberty, is that the thesis of the book is 104 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:37,960 that coercion is not limited to the public sector, that you can also be 105 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,559 coerced and sometimes unjustly coerced in the private economy. In fact, it happens 106 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:50,080 all the time, And that the American tradition in a broader sense used to 107 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:56,200 have a clear sense of this, whether you look at the founding generation talking 108 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:03,120 about the dangers of faction, of how economic faction can contour or distort our 109 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,360 democratic and republic small r republican ideals, or whether you look at the Jacksonians 110 00:09:09,759 --> 00:09:13,600 with their anxieties about the power of the Second Bank of the United States being 111 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:20,440 a private entity that would restrain the kind of popular democratic liberties of the people, 112 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:28,559 and so on and so forth. And in restraining people's freedom in the 113 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,519 private sector or in the coercion that we face in the marketplace or in the 114 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:41,399 workplace, what happens often is that our actual liberty to be able to achieve 115 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:48,399 human flourishing is vitiated. And so that's my definition of liberty is that the 116 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:54,440 ability to be free to pursue human flourishing, and that requires you, for 117 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,200 example, to be able to make ends meet at a basic level. And 118 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,720 what we have to day, for example, is an economy in which half 119 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:07,080 of fast food workers have to rely on public welfare to make ends meet, 120 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,559 and that actually subjects them to two forms of coercion. The first is the 121 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,440 fact that precisely because their hours and wages are precarious that they don't have. 122 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:24,159 They're basically at the mercy of the employer, and they never have that sense 123 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,639 of security of being able to live through life knowing that if they go to 124 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,840 work and work hard, they will be able to make ends meet. But 125 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:37,679 it does another thing because they're reliant on public welfare, because we've built recently 126 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:46,120 by getting rid of manufacturing and emphasizing services so much that they need, like 127 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:48,799 I said, half of their income to make ends meet for the working poor 128 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:56,559 has to come from public welfare. So that also simultaneously subjects them to the 129 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,080 whims of the welfare administrator as well. Right, the person who can say, 130 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:07,759 oh, did you spend twelve dollars on beer and cigarettes with your public 131 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:11,519 money, with your with your welfare funds. And so if you look at 132 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:15,519 a person like that, and I'm here, I'm talking about the lowest rungs 133 00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:18,120 of the labor market, they're squeezed on both ends. They're at the mercy 134 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:22,399 of the employer who doesn't pay them enough, and they're at the mercy of 135 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,919 the administrative state, which kind of disciplines them for their daring to buy not 136 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:33,200 you know, buying the wrong thing with their welfare money. So and then 137 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,600 meanwhile, you know, the liberty of all of us as the rest of 138 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,759 the tax as tax paying citizens, is also violated by that, because when 139 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:48,759 we allow employers to do precarious wages, cut dramatically cut the labor share of 140 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,120 their out to social income, the rest of us have to foot the bill 141 00:11:52,559 --> 00:12:00,600 through as taxpayers through welfare. So in that sense, we we get to 142 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,840 publicize, publicly take on the costs of a low wage, precarious economy, 143 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:13,039 and the private sector, or especially large private employers, get to privatize the 144 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,120 gains. Is that liberty? I mean, is that not coercion? I 145 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,919 think he would argue that it is. So I think it's just a matter 146 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,679 of recognizing. And this is the key point of the book, is that 147 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,399 it is possible to be coerced in the private economy, especially since the Industrial 148 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:35,480 Revolution. And I'll just make this one last kind of wonky economic history historical 149 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:41,440 point and then I'll stop. But that what is the kind of Paul Ryan 150 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,320 libertarian or lesse Fair defense against the idea that you can be coerced the market? 151 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,480 Well, what they say is, no, you can't, because the 152 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,120 market is so full of all these different actors, that you can always find 153 00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:58,279 a better deal elsewhere, so no one actor can coerce you, because the 154 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,799 price mechanism exists and everyone has to compete, and that the existence of the 155 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:07,480 price mechanism means that you can always find a better deal elsewhere. And if 156 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:11,519 any one actor tries to coerge you or put one over you, that will 157 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,840 ultimately sound their death melt, because you the consumer or you the worker, 158 00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:18,840 whoever will find some other employer, some other person to buy things from. 159 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,159 That's econ one to one. And that picture of the economy that they describe 160 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:31,799 applies to certain industries today, namely agriculture, and it certainly was the reality 161 00:13:31,879 --> 00:13:35,960 in the late eighteenth century when like Adam Smith was writing before the rise of 162 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:41,080 the Industrial Revolution. In that era of like yeoman farmers and individual mechanics who 163 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,879 own their tools, we really did meet you at an arm's length. We 164 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:46,559 transacted, but I could always walk away from you, and there was a 165 00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:52,600 multiplicity of sellers and buyers on every side of every market. That hasn't been 166 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:58,320 the case since the mid nineteenth century. Since the mid nineteenth century because of 167 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,320 the nature of the Industrial Revolution and when most industries are characterized by factory and 168 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,480 network effects. Like factory effects like the enormous barriers to entry that are involved 169 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:13,720 in starting a tire, manufacturers say you can't have like a zillion small tire 170 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:20,399 manufacturers tends toward concentration or network effects, where it makes more sense to have 171 00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:24,519 one railroad that serves two hundred towns rather than each pair of towns having their 172 00:14:24,559 --> 00:14:30,200 own individual railroads. What would the result of that is that most markets since 173 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,919 the mid nineteenth century have been dominated by like two or three actors, and 174 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,879 so the idea that you can always find a bit better deal elsewhere is kind 175 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:43,159 of a mythology. In fact, you know, most market in most situations 176 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,519 like that which is called oligopoly, it's not the same as monopoly. The 177 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:52,159 few factors that exist they get to more or less set their own prices, 178 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,919 and so the price signal is no longer this like perfect index of supply and 179 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:03,200 demand or marginal productivity for wages. It's just what big powerful actors get to 180 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:09,519 say it is. And so my argument is not that you can get rid 181 00:15:09,559 --> 00:15:15,200 of coercion entirely out of human society. That's impossible, but to recognize that 182 00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:24,399 market life can also be quite coercive, is all. Hey, y'all, 183 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:28,440 this is Sarah Carter, investigative columnist and host of The Sarah Carter Show. 184 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,919 Thanks for listening to the Federalist. We all have a heartfelt reason to support 185 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:35,200 our blood pressure. 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It's blood precious 194 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,000 support you can trust. Get a free thirty day supply of super Beats heart 195 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,720 shoes and fifteen percent off your first order by going to get superbeats dot com 196 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:26,399 and use promo code Sarah. That's saar yet Superbeats dot Com code Sarah to 197 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:34,879 get fifteen percent off your first order yet superbeats dot Com Forromo code Sarah. 198 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:41,320 I remember during the vaccine mandate arguments, having to go getting the really serious 199 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:47,559 arguments with a lot of governors and chiefs of staff and senators about their unwillingness 200 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,879 to tell private businesses that they were not allowed to demand medical procedures to do 201 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,000 business. They were saying that this is violated, you know, the Ten 202 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,120 Commandments. For Ronald Reagan. I don't think that's true. They say things 203 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,480 like, why don't just go to another grocery store, and without any seeming 204 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:03,840 knowledge of the fact that you know, if just visiting, if you go 205 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:07,720 to Hillsdale, Michigan, if the one grocery sources you need a vaccine to 206 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,119 get in there, you have to drift thirty miles to get to the next 207 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,720 one. And that's not really an option if your job kicks you out. 208 00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:15,480 And you know, my focus over the last ten years or argument with libertarians, 209 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,160 it's often been on the corporate on like the Walmarts that come in that 210 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:22,799 it's hard to tell if a town gets worse when Walmart comes in, or 211 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:27,240 if Walmart comes into dying towns, but it certainly wipes out the main street 212 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:32,400 businesses, the things that create middle class there. It changes main street into 213 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,160 a parking lot, sells sheep, subsidized goods to American workers from foreign markets 214 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,759 that we don't make anymore, and a lot of their labor force or parts 215 00:17:40,759 --> 00:17:44,039 of their labor force, are and their a lot of their customers are subsidized 216 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:48,039 by food stamps to buy their crap and buy welfare. But what's what interested 217 00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:52,440 me about your book is instead of just going right after the walmarts and all 218 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,319 these things, you really start with the people. And it's not just kind 219 00:17:56,319 --> 00:18:02,160 of the conservative heroes of like the working union who's working on the railroad or 220 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:08,279 working in the factory. It's the tech worker, the waitress, the folks 221 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:11,119 from all different aspects of society seem to be the stories are telling, and 222 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,880 you know, not all of them are really terribly awful, but a lot 223 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:22,720 of them to show just the constant pressures locking me through kind of your line 224 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:26,000 of thinking is starting off with these examples that are kind of every day things 225 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,480 that we recognize every day, as opposed to you know, what a lot 226 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:32,960 of authors do, which just takes something this is so unbelievably heinous, like 227 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,519 this child who was pulled into a machine can start with that. Yeah, 228 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:41,400 I mean, I tried to give a picture of how our political economy works 229 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:45,880 or doesn't work, from the point of view of a wide range of ordinary 230 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:51,400 Americans. And as I've watched, the Republican Party, first of all, 231 00:18:51,519 --> 00:18:56,119 gained enormous shares of working class people. This is undeniable. Trump won the 232 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:03,640 highest marginal share of union households for a Republican nominee since nineteen eighty four with 233 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,920 Ronald Reagan, and then he consolidated that group in twenty twenty and added to 234 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:14,000 a working class people of color. And so the Republican Party is trying to 235 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,079 adjust to that, and I think it's valuable. But as I watched this 236 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,279 discourse, this kind of realignment discourse, I couldn't but help notice that the 237 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,680 picture that the typical Republican politician or operative has of who a working class person 238 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:33,480 is is not wrong, but it's kind of narrow slice. It's always a 239 00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:37,799 typical like either. In fact, what they're talking about is not a working 240 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:40,960 class person but a small business owner, like someone who owns his own roofing 241 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,200 business, or it's like the burly teamster, you know, the electrician, 242 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,440 carpenter, et cetera. Which, by the way, that's part of our 243 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:52,160 that's definitely part of the working class. But there's many other people who are 244 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,799 situated in our economy who are faced this kind of coercion but don't fit that 245 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,400 picture. So I do tell the story of the service industry, which is 246 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,880 enormous in our time. Now it's about you know, it's something like attempt 247 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:11,680 of the population works in the service industry, or as you mentioned, there 248 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,799 are employees in the tech sector who you know, obviously certainly make more than 249 00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:21,079 the waitress that I mentioned, but they still have a great degree of precarity 250 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,119 where we all feel right that tomorrow the carpet could be the rug could be 251 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,960 pulled out from under your feet, and your possibility of falling down into an 252 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,680 abyss. Specifically, in those cases, I talk about how lopsided the employment 253 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:40,759 agreements are, where again classical theory says, oh, people meet and they 254 00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:42,839 can each walk away from an employment agreement, so they have this kind of 255 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,319 symmetrical power. In reality, you know, you've already bought a house, 256 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:52,039 you've already moved across the town or the state or the country. You've uprooted 257 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:55,519 your husband or wife, et cetera, et cetera. And you show up 258 00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:59,599 and they give you a fat pile of documents. You're an at will employee, 259 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,400 and you're supposed to agree to them. There's there's no real negotiation in 260 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:07,119 realistically speaking, and you give away like your right to the right to your 261 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,920 own voice now your speaking voice, your picture, your persona which can be 262 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,400 licensed to commercial third parties, and you have no right to sue those third 263 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,599 parties if they, for example, use your picture and doctored virtual pornography. 264 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,519 You're supposed to give up the right to kind of total surveillance of your online 265 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:30,519 activities. This was a kind of thing that educated You know professional class workers 266 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:36,400 face and you know they're relative to their employers, they can be just as 267 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,079 vulnerable as as as kind of people who work with their hands. I tell 268 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:49,440 stories of accountants who whose wages were underpaid but couldn't couldn't bring suit in a 269 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,720 class action under the Fair Labor Standards Act, which is a New Deal era 270 00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:57,119 law that guarantees you a minimum wage and overtime protections. And it was because 271 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,119 it's a new deal law. It was specifically in encouraged. It was supposed 272 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,920 to encourage collective action. But using private arbitration, which is these kind of 273 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:15,359 privatized courts which corporations typically can control, they more or less employers like Ernst 274 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,759 and Young in this case can get away with not paying wages that are legally 275 00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,960 owed. And because they force you to go to this private arbitration chamber where 276 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:29,599 it might cost you two hundred thousand dollars to litigate your case individually, then 277 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:33,200 you know you can't do that. You can't, that's irrational. So you 278 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,279 more or less give up on you over time that was owed to you, 279 00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:38,640 and so on and so forth. So the point of that, and again, 280 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,680 I certainly do have blue collar workers whose stories I tell, but I 281 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:48,079 was just trying to give them more realistic because I'm a man of the right 282 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,599 and a lot of my readership is conservative, give them more realistic picture of 283 00:22:51,599 --> 00:22:56,519 what the labor market today looks like, as opposed to kind of some of 284 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:00,400 these romantic images that some on the right have. No, that's so sure, 285 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,519 it trist me crazy. And there's something about the banal miseries of sort 286 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:08,440 of middle class life in America that are in some ways equally as disturbing as 287 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,599 the kind of romantic miseries that conservatives often lament of the coal miners or the 288 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,960 truck drivers. So I also want to ask you one of the things that 289 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,599 got me really excited about this book is an excerpt of it that American Compass 290 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:27,160 published specifically on private equity and financialization, which is fascinating. And when I 291 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,440 read your excerpt, I was like, conservative media should have had reporters on 292 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,640 this beat for years. The conservative movement should have had people studying this deeply 293 00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:41,799 and advocating on behalf of actual market freedom for years. So tell us a 294 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:45,920 little bit about as you were digging into it for the book Tyranny, Inc. 295 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,160 How you came to the conclusion that you did on private equity sort of 296 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,440 malign influence over the political economy. Yeah. Well, I mean, the 297 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:03,240 book, again is about private coercion, and so I obviously an enormous aspect 298 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:08,640 of that today is the fact that the Wall Street takeover of the real economy. 299 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,960 What is the real economy. It's where we you know, build stuff 300 00:24:14,079 --> 00:24:18,440 or offer services that are actually useful to people in the sense that ordinary people 301 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:25,319 can understand their usefulness. And you know, most people's picture of American capitalism 302 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:32,079 is that a corporation has a product. Let's say, you know, mister 303 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:38,000 Bedford has come up with some new you know, grill that uses ultra violet 304 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,319 light or something like that, because I know he likes grilling, and I 305 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,119 like, I frequently find myself with my mouth watering when I look at his 306 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,000 Facebook feed. And he's come up with this scientific role that does the perfect 307 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:56,640 salmon in matter of thirty seconds or something. And he goes to a bank 308 00:24:56,759 --> 00:25:00,640 or some other financial institution. He borrows money in order to develop and then 309 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,680 market this product and pay for the workers required to manufacture it, etcetera, 310 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,160 etcetera. He it proves a hit, as I'm sure it will, and 311 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,599 so he makes a profit. He has to pay taxes, he has to 312 00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:15,079 pay there's certain set costs that every business has to pay. And after that, 313 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:19,480 he returns some of his money to the shareholders, the you know who 314 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,400 lent him money and got equity in return, or to the bank in the 315 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,440 form of interest, you know, because they took a risk on his product 316 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,920 and they deserve that, and that's perfectly fair. But then he has enough 317 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,000 money retains enough money to then reinvest in the business. Because what happens to 318 00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:44,599 any business, it's capital depreciates, it it's it's you know, it's workers 319 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,200 leave the company. He has to recruit new workers, he has to invest 320 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,000 in research and development because competitors might catch up, etcetera, etcetera. If 321 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,480 you have that picture of American capitalism, it was an accurate picture roughly until 322 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,200 you know, the nineteen eighties. But as our friend or in casts documented, 323 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,640 ever since the nineteen eighties, more and more American corporations are literally sort 324 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:14,920 of they're cannibalizing themselves because what they do is they return one hundred percent of 325 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:22,440 their profits after taxes, etcetera, etcetera. They return them to Wall Street, 326 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,759 to big finance. And this is kind of the pressure that private equity 327 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:30,599 and hedge fund puts because they have this short termist mentality. So what does 328 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,599 that do to the businesses? It means they erode themselves. Businesses are eating 329 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:40,640 away at themselves, and frequently that means that business eventually collapse. And we 330 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,000 know, for example, again thanks to research by our friend or in cast, 331 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,079 that you know, when private equity owns a business, the likelihood of 332 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:55,559 bankruptcy dramatically increases because they have this kind of model of squeezing, squeezing cash, 333 00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:59,160 squeezing cash, squeezing cash out of a business and then adding some more 334 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,920 debt on top of until it collapses. Now their their mentality is, Okay, 335 00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:07,240 we own ten businesses, if nine of them go bankrupt, but the 336 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:11,960 tenth one is a huge hit, it's all awash, and we still walk 337 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,799 away quite you know, having made nice profits. But the ordinary community or 338 00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:18,880 the ordinary worker can't do that. You know, you can't take ten jobs 339 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,240 and hope that nine out of the ten might bankrupt, but at least the 340 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:26,839 tenth one will be a success, and it's a it's all awash. You 341 00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:30,880 can only take one job, or there's only the one big firm in the 342 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,400 community. By the way, Tucker talked about this a lot on his show, 343 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,559 where hedge funds would take over perfectly kind of profitable businesses and drive them 344 00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:44,240 to the ground. That's the only game in talent. So now it's lost 345 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:47,359 because it's been eroded by private equity. And then I tell the story. 346 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:53,359 What you refer to is increasingly we're privatizing emergency services and firefighting, which is 347 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:59,039 bad enough because that's those are goods that should be eminently common public goods. 348 00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:03,160 But then Wall Street takes over those privatizing firms and does the same thing to 349 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,519 them. It erodes them. It doesn't invest enough so that you know, 350 00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:11,839 there's medicare fraud that happens as a result of that, drug thefts, ambulances 351 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:18,559 and firetrucks don't get there on time, etc. Etc. That's that's pretty 352 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:22,880 atrocious and the worst part of it is, and this is the real scoop 353 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,400 in the book, is that many firefighters and emergency services workers in the public 354 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:33,319 sector are actually capitalizing the privatization of their own jobs because their pension plans invest 355 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,279 in private equity and hedge funds that are in the business of privatizing their jobs. 356 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:41,319 So, in other words, by every time they contribute to their pension 357 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:48,400 plan, they're marginally working to destroy their own livelihoods. These public servants that 358 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,279 you know, Republicans, Democrats, we all honor right firefighters, EMTs, 359 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:56,720 police officers were supposed to honor them, and yet their own pension plans are 360 00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:06,039 sort of undermining their viability in the long term. The watched Aolto on Wall 361 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:10,759 Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics 362 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:12,920 and the economy and how it affects your wallet. There's a method to the 363 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,240 madness. Biden plans to ask Congress for billions more dollars for another COVID vaccine. 364 00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:23,920 With more masks and vaccines, maybe stimulus checks Americans wallets can survive another 365 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,200 free money hand out. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 366 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,160 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdolt on Wall 367 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,640 Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your 368 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:41,920 podcast. From the left, David Saroda has been doing a ton of reporting 369 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,319 on that for years. But to see it, I think laid out in 370 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:52,039 the context of conservative argumentation was I just it was really really helpful, and 371 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,359 it made me think, Chris, back to the sort of Obama era when 372 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:03,839 the Great Recession happens and the republic Party enthusiastically smugly nominates a private equity baron 373 00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:11,119 the presidential nominee. Mitt Romney and George will were the voices of the moment, 374 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:14,160 and there were a couple of people out there saying, hold on a 375 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,440 second, maybe the same right. Maybe maybe the tea party is actually not 376 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,960 just about putting Paul Ryan and Shark. Maybe the tea parties not just about 377 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:29,799 private protective private equity in the Wall Street rents that we saw we used to 378 00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:34,319 look at, sorry, the break from private fire departments that would pillage your 379 00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:38,960 home to public service. It was like an e leap for civilization from early 380 00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:44,480 New York City in Boston and other Eastern cities to a more modern, civilized 381 00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:48,440 city that takes care of its residents. And those those things seem like they're 382 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:52,160 are easier to fix when when you have people actually listening and paying attention, 383 00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:56,680 it's kind of clear cut, like there's not allowed to have private prisons anymore. 384 00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:00,119 I allowed to have private this, But some of the problems you talk 385 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:03,559 about your book seem more difficult. I spent half of my life or so 386 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:11,079 fifteen years in the service industry as a bartender, caterer, waiter, bouncer. 387 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,720 And some of those jobs were hard. They're all hard, but some 388 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:22,440 of them were much more reasonable schedule, much more repetition than others, and 389 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,839 some of them were kind of ad hoc. And so you talk about the 390 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,079 waitress and how she's being coerced because she doesn't know what her shift's going to 391 00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:33,000 be. She has to balance that with childcare. She can't work the great 392 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,160 shifts because the expensive of getting someone to take care of her child, et 393 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,759 cetera. And this is the unpredictability of it. But when when you look 394 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:44,960 at a restaurant tour, they're under a lot of different pressures too. The 395 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,400 failure rates extremely high, and granted that's exaggerated in my personal experience by the 396 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:55,400 number of idiots and criminals who start restaurants, but still it is very difficult 397 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,319 to run a restaurant. They don't know where the surgeres are going to be 398 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,240 there, they have to cut. They can't be thrown out through this leftover 399 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,759 every extra waiter and a shift is this money out and a lower and a 400 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:10,759 low margin industry industry. So maybe there are certain restaurants, for example, 401 00:32:10,759 --> 00:32:15,640 as opposed to others that can't cater to that lifestyle. So where does the 402 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,480 responsibility really end up? Following following Some of these things just seem like the 403 00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:23,640 companies are in a protective state and they're trying to guard themselves and they're not 404 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,640 necessarily villains, but they're part of the same system. Yeah, so let 405 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,039 me give several answers to that. I. First of all, I I 406 00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:37,519 think I totally get where you're coming from. The first answer is that we 407 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:46,680 used to have a restaurant and service industry in which the burdens associated with periods 408 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,960 of low demand was more equitably distributed between employer and employee. Right, what 409 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,599 we're talking about with this kind of just in time scheduling where you know, 410 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,880 workers only come in for like the first opening two hours and then the cloak 411 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,319 and it's called clopening shifts, the first opening two hours and the last opening 412 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,880 closing two hours. The idea is that that those are the periods of high 413 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:14,599 demand. These are all practices, you know, giving vote workers like much 414 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,039 less notice about what their schedule is going to be, lots of cancelations, 415 00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:21,599 of shifts, last minute, et cetera. These practices have grown in recent 416 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,119 years. It wasn't always, It wasn't ever thus right, these are there 417 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:32,480 because what business is trying to do is to shift all the costs associative periods 418 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:37,400 of low demand onto the back of workers. If you had an economy in 419 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,920 which that was more equitably distributed, you know, people get more regular schedules 420 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,079 that are predictable, and yes there are periods will come up where customers aren't 421 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:49,920 showing up, and both employer and employee take a hit, right because workers 422 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,640 don't get tips or whatever and employer doesn't get profits. So some of the 423 00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:00,480 practices can become quite extreme. And it's not at your mom pop diner is 424 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:04,960 typically you know, people who can even afford algorithmic human resources of this kind 425 00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:08,719 are like you know, these kind of not the super nice restaurants which pay 426 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,519 their employees quite well often, you know, like the fancy steakhouse, will 427 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:17,920 the waitress there can easily make like a really fat amount on just one night's 428 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,239 tips. But and not like a mom and pop diner was like yeah you're 429 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,960 coming in Monday through Friday, blah blah blah. But like the kind of 430 00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:30,880 chain corporate chains, which is where you see these practices especially frequently, and 431 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,920 so there that's genuinely unfair, and I think we can have a fair distribution. 432 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,000 Talk about private equity, you know, you know, these these firms 433 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,280 took advantage of COVID relief, would come people, you know, basically people 434 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,159 who completely didn't need COVID relief got COVID relief. But that's a different story. 435 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,480 So we can we can, I think, mitigate against some of these 436 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:58,440 practices without without harming the most vulnerable type of small business. The second point 437 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,119 to make is not all of the you know, I call for right raising 438 00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:09,159 up rates of unionization, and you know, I think not not in, 439 00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:14,440 not in That's not true for every industry. There are industries that are both 440 00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:19,920 very hard to unionize and where it's just not practical. And in those places 441 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,400 I would argue that a higher minimum wage can do the job. And you 442 00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:27,360 say, well, okay, but like you know, automation may come, 443 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,840 et cetera. And I think we're getting into like these macroeconomic speculative arguments. 444 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,480 But if we have a generally high wage economy that's based again on manufacturing, 445 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,760 on sectors of the future, energy, et cetera, where the bulk of 446 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:50,079 workers is earning enough, then as you know in other places like service, 447 00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:53,440 you can have higher wages and the economy will sort of it'll absorb the costs 448 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,920 associated with higher wages. You know. In other words, even if the 449 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:07,119 cost of a burger is higher because of a higher minimum wage, it's okay 450 00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:13,159 because then the bulk of workers themselves are earning even higher than that because they're 451 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:16,440 now have you know, decent manufacturing jobs, and so they're not you know, 452 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,880 the two dollars more a more expensive burger is not going to I mean, 453 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,079 I live in New York City for most of the year or much of 454 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:29,000 the year, and as you know, it's like you used to be able 455 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,360 to, even in New York City, used to be able to go out 456 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,159 and have a meal for two at a decent and I'm not talking about like 457 00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:39,239 a Michelin start at a decent of Italian restaurant for under one hundred dollars. 458 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,440 Now that's it's it's impossible. If you, if any of you gets a 459 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,400 single drink, it's it's going to be over over one hundred and then easily 460 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:54,360 into two hundred. Prices are unbelievable. Yeah. Well, and one question 461 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,800 that I wanted to ask, and I'm sure listeners have all kind of kinds 462 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,480 of questions question through their mind, but one thing that Christ brought up earlier 463 00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:06,159 was the vaccine mandates. And you know, I think Adrian Vermuel fell on 464 00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:09,880 the other side from most of the conservative movement on vaccine mandates, but it 465 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,119 does bring this this question to the forefront of when we haven't increasingly, I 466 00:37:15,159 --> 00:37:20,320 would say, like tyrannical government that wants to surveil every breath you take, 467 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,039 every thought you would have which made me possible in the future, what is 468 00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:29,480 how is there? Like I think about Twitter, for example, I think 469 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:34,360 there's a real argument to like a nationalizing Twitter as a public utility, treating 470 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,239 it as you know, or treating it as Clarence Thomas would say, a 471 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,840 common carrier, railroads, telecom, you know model that we have. But 472 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:46,239 I also am incredibly hesitant to turn over, you know, go from Elon 473 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,880 Musker, Jack Dorsey to the Biden administration and all of the bureaucrats that would 474 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,199 staff you know, Trump administration unwittingly or a de Santist administration unwittingly, just 475 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,360 because they are the ones that have been embedded as careers are given to a 476 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,239 sella. They manage the all the all the same jerks were on Twitter. 477 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,360 Remember when Hunter Biden was on the board of Hamtrack. So as conservators kind 478 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,840 of think of balancing those two things. A government that seems sort of impenetrable 479 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,559 because the bureaucracy has been has been weaponized in anti democratic ways and then a 480 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:23,159 private sector that seems anti democratic and anti market as well, anti free market 481 00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:27,440 as well in so many ways. How do people, how should people be 482 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,000 thinking about balancing those two problems. Yeah, that's a really good question. 483 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:37,920 I mean, first of all, you mentioned the common carrier doctrine and and 484 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,280 justice Thomas's suggestion. I mean, he's he's a kind of a throwaway line 485 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,639 in a short I think the senting opinion. Well, that's you know, 486 00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:50,920 that's a pretty good solution to the problem of Twitter, because I don't I 487 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,960 don't trust any oligarch, whether he has my values or not on whatever issues, 488 00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:59,559 to not be kind of abusing the power that they have over the democratic, 489 00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:02,079 digital, democratic public square. And so you know, just like your 490 00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:07,559 phone company can't your phone company cannot kick you off their service because of what 491 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:09,840 you say on the phone, and likewise, I think we're getting to the 492 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,159 point where we have to do that with social media and banking, because we 493 00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:17,360 saw with the truckers protests in Canada, We've seen it with the January sixth 494 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,960 defendants where and we've seen it with Nigel Farage in Britain where banks will de 495 00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:28,760 bank people get kicked them off the off their services, which is devastating because 496 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,159 we all need money. We can't pay for everything in cash, and we 497 00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:35,239 don't want to keep our money under our mattresses, and most of us don't, 498 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,760 and so that kind of politicize the personing of people, whether it's PayPal, 499 00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:46,079 whether it's a Coots bank in Britain with Nigel Farage, or whether it's 500 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,880 social media for Facebook, etc. I think the easiest way to fix that 501 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,519 this is not really empowering the administrative state. It's just applying a common law 502 00:39:55,559 --> 00:40:00,239 doctrine called the common carrier doctrine, which is it is like, you know, 503 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:07,320 toll bridges, you know privately on toll bridges can't not unreasonably discriminate against 504 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,280 you. And in the same way, I think banks and social media should 505 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,960 be regulated, but that's not necessarily empowering the the administrative state. On the 506 00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:19,840 larger point of what to do about the administrative state, I mean, I 507 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:27,679 think, first of all, as a minimum, I think, as you 508 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,079 know, Emily, and you know, maybe some of your listeners were like, 509 00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:35,119 yeah, if this guy, I can't stand anymore. But when I 510 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:37,440 hear people say abolish the administrative state, I just can't. I can't help 511 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:42,880 but roll my eyes because the reason we have an administrative state is because the 512 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,159 ever since the nineteenth century, we've had a really large, complex economy and 513 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:52,599 that's very hard to regulate, you know, at the for Congress to make 514 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,360 rules that are specific enough for rail, right what we need a rail We 515 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,199 have a big, large rail network, and we need complex relations because it's 516 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:06,360 a big complex issue. And so this kind of fourth branch of the government 517 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,599 has emerged to deal with that problem. And I just cannot come up with 518 00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:12,159 a better solution other than to say, you know, if you want to 519 00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:15,719 abolish the administrative state, I invite you to take the first flight after the 520 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,440 FAA is gone, or to eat the first can you know, can of 521 00:41:20,559 --> 00:41:24,760 can beans after the FDA has been abolished. I'm going to be wary of 522 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,840 doing that. That said, you're totally right that the administrative state can be 523 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,840 quite undemocratic. It's not supposed to be. You know, when they make 524 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,760 rules, they're supposed to have public hearings where or at public comment period where 525 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:45,320 the various interested groups can we can push back or discuss or contest the rulemaking. 526 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,199 And of course it should it should be responsible to the executive branch which 527 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,639 is where these agencies get their power from the person of the president. But 528 00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:57,599 as we know, especially when Republicans are in office, basically the agencies have 529 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:02,000 learned to resist the democratic will or the will of the democratic collected politicians. 530 00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:07,599 I think the q can be exaggerated, but it's certainly a real problem. 531 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:12,960 There are important reforms we can do to avoid that. I mean, I 532 00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:16,079 you know, like making it easier to fire admin agency officials so that they're 533 00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:21,400 a little bit more responsive to the political will of the of the executive branch 534 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,559 and specifically the person of the commander in chief is something that various Republicans put 535 00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:29,679 forward, and I happily will sign my name to that, but not to 536 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:35,000 abolishing the administrative state, because that's bonkers. Go ahead, sorry, so 537 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,440 does that. I mean a lot of those rules and make it so difficult 538 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,280 to fire someone for sexual harassment, for alcoholism, for not showing up at 539 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,920 work, for or not alcoholism, but for DUIs and stuff. Clean that 540 00:42:47,039 --> 00:42:51,679 up, like you know. But those were carved out by the unions. 541 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,440 My views of the public sector unions are more complex. I'm very much for 542 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,760 private sector unions. Public sector unions are more complicated, especially when it's not. 543 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,880 You know, sometimes people think public sector unions and they forget that sometimes 544 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:12,760 you're talking about SEIU operating an environment in which it's organizing, you know, 545 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,199 garbage collectors whose jobs have been privatized or contracted out to a private entity, 546 00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:24,559 but they're still ultimately sort of public employees right in these complex public private situations. 547 00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:29,199 And so in those situations, I'm pretty supportive of public sector unions as 548 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,639 well. But when you're talking about federal government employees, I have, I 549 00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:36,519 have much more complicated thoughts. I'm not I'm not about to say that they're 550 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,679 they completely don't have a place, because as an employer, the federal government 551 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:45,880 can be coursive, just as it's pretty coursive when it you know, enforces, 552 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,800 Uh, there's all sorts of other things, and so how the workers 553 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,159 defend themselves against that. But I agree with you that that, you know, 554 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,920 giving public employees a complete carte blanche is why it's one reason why the 555 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,360 administrative state is connor and I support that, you know, various reforms that 556 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,719 are out there to make it easier for the president to exert his will over 557 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:15,880 the over these agencies. And then so which one last point is you know, 558 00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:22,719 one way to disempower the administrative state is just to empower people as in 559 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:29,599 their other corporate forms of belonging. Empower them as members of churches, empower 560 00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:35,679 them as members of you know, local community clubs. Empower them as members 561 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,559 of you know, the Rotary club or whatever. And as in this one 562 00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:45,360 crucial sense, as neighbors of labor unions, as workers with particular vocation, 563 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:51,480 and they have their pride of their work, their guild, their sort of 564 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,400 belonging in that. And if you raise up the power of these other forms 565 00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:02,599 of belonging and power, then you but necessary by necessity, you sort of 566 00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:09,719 weaken both the large unaccountable employer and the large unaccountable, you know, an 567 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,960 administrator. It's hard to do. I mean a lot of these clubs, 568 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:20,880 the Elks Club, the I mean they're sitting there, they're waiting forward members 569 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,400 people would they would love to have you join. I mean I could join 570 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,679 the American Legion Club on Capitol Hill. I didn't. I didn't serve, 571 00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:30,079 but they're so hungry for members. Maybe it's not the American Legion but the 572 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:34,880 VFW nearby. They have a bar. They're excited. I love drinking at 573 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,599 old elks clubs, cheap drinks, wonderful stuff. So so this goes back 574 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:42,199 to my point that the larger point of the book is that we have an 575 00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:46,880 economy in which everyone is very harried, everyone is coerced, and it is 576 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:52,000 not easy to make ends meet just on one income, which is, you 577 00:45:52,039 --> 00:45:55,320 know, what the what most working class Americans want. If you ask them 578 00:45:55,400 --> 00:46:00,760 what they want. They don't want universal healthcare in the sense of pushing both 579 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,760 land and wife to be always at the at the service of the market. 580 00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:08,239 What they want is an economy in which it suffices to have one income to 581 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,880 make ends meet. And that's what we used to have, you know, 582 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,039 in this sort of new deal order after nineteen forty five to roughly seventies and 583 00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:22,360 eighties. That's what the majority of people want. Now you bring that up 584 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,960 and some progressives will say, okay, well that's the return of patriarchy. 585 00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:29,000 Mom has to stay at home, et cetera. Well, we know American 586 00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:31,840 families today are more complicated, and there will be situations in which it's mom 587 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,119 working and the guy who stays at home. Maybe I don't know, but 588 00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:38,719 the point is that if you ask the ordinary working last person, they want 589 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:44,440 an economy in which that's possible, and conservatives have a you know, I 590 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,039 was on a different show with Emily yesterday and she asked me, is this 591 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,679 I can't remember where they put up her shut up? Put up her shut 592 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:52,400 up. Okay, I was going to come up with a with a more 593 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:59,440 obscene one involving a toilet getting off the pot. But the point is that, 594 00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:04,639 know, that's what we need is is Republicans. Yeah, Blake Masters 595 00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:07,159 said it. Of course his Senate run wasn't successful, but he said, 596 00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:08,719 I want to work to weards an economy in which that's possible. Again, 597 00:47:09,039 --> 00:47:12,920 and if that's that's the end goal, you work everything around it. It's 598 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,559 not like unions for their own sake, or it's not like you know, 599 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:20,000 the X y Z reform for its own sake. It's because you have a 600 00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:22,760 vision that you promise the people, and then you know, you work around 601 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,559 it. You work with the economy you have, You reform what you can, 602 00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:29,159 you could Joe what you can, you build the coalitions. You can 603 00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:32,639 work with Senator Warren on x y Z as Senator Vance is doing. But 604 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:37,840 of course you don't work with her on the weird culture stuff that you don't 605 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,360 want to work with her on that understand abortion for all. Yeah, of 606 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,840 course we don't cooperate, but good servits have to just have a vision. 607 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:47,880 And so you know, I just get to this all the time, and 608 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:53,039 you guys are familiar with it. But I just I feel like that's been 609 00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:58,880 lost. There was a kind of cleer maga element that was and a crisply 610 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,000 reformist vision, believe it or not, in the twenty sixteen campaign. But 611 00:48:02,079 --> 00:48:07,519 what I see the kind of conservative populism today. It's all culture war. 612 00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:09,280 And I'm a culture warrior. I mean I've thought some you know, you 613 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,360 guys both know I've thought some culture wars that I'm proud of that. You 614 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,440 know, there's some weird stuff that they want to shove down the throats of 615 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,199 our kids, and I don't want that. But not everything is a culture 616 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,840 war. And that's all it gets so frustrated. Like the Silicon Valley bank 617 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:29,480 collapses, my favorite example. You know, it's like, we have a 618 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,519 complex banking issue in this country, and actually the big banks are fairly well 619 00:48:34,559 --> 00:48:37,480 regulated now, small banks, you know, they can't do too much damage. 620 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,000 It's these weird regional banks like Silicon Valley bank that can cause a lot 621 00:48:42,039 --> 00:48:45,400 of trouble for the economy. This happens by an administration. Actually, I 622 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,400 think response pretty effectively to their credit and they do to clawbacks so that you 623 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,599 know, or New Americans don't feel like they're bailing out venture capital. But 624 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,079 what is the response Republican response? It's, oh, this it failed because 625 00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:02,960 it went woke. I'm sorry, but you look up the board of Silicon 626 00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:07,360 Valley Bank and it's still majority are overwhelming majority of white guys. What are 627 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,599 you talking about? What those are the leaders right beyond the white women. 628 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,400 Yeah, because it's like, you know, it's not not everything is this 629 00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:22,159 kind of easy culture war issue. And I think if we can get beyond 630 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:27,760 that and go back to sort of offering a populous vision, it's out there 631 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,480 for the taking because you know a lot of American people are pretty frustrated with 632 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,480 the economy. Well, speaking of families, we know you have to go 633 00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:40,400 do some school pickups soon with the book? Is Tyranny ink I sorr Amari, 634 00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:46,480 Founder and editor of Compact Magazine. So where do you prefer people buy 635 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:55,119 this book or does it make a difference you honestly, yeah, I think 636 00:49:55,159 --> 00:49:59,599 if it's a well, go to your local bookstore. That they'll never do 637 00:49:59,639 --> 00:50:04,280 that, So go on Amazon. And Amazon is a target of this book's 638 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,599 critique. Believe me, you know, I know you both have read it, 639 00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:12,119 and the opening starts with Amazon. But if it means you'll buy it, 640 00:50:12,199 --> 00:50:15,800 buy it on Amazon, because that's probably the fastest and easy. Love. 641 00:50:15,039 --> 00:50:17,039 No, no, no, actually, let me revise that. I 642 00:50:17,079 --> 00:50:22,639 think I think my publisher Pick and Random House is does not want any one 643 00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:25,559 seller to be privileged, So I'll just say buy it wherever good books are 644 00:50:25,559 --> 00:50:30,719 sold. Yeah, there you go. Well it is it's Light Compact. 645 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,639 If you're not reading Compact, you absolutely should be. But Light Compact Jurney 646 00:50:32,639 --> 00:50:37,119 Inc. Is a useful, provocative, and really beautiful contribution to the discourse. 647 00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:40,119 So so Rob, thank you very very much for joining us on Federalist 648 00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:45,119 Radio Hours. In real guys, thank you, thanks, you've been listening 649 00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:49,079 to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emilias Shensky, culture editor 650 00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:51,880 here at The Federalist. Will be back soon with more. Until men get 651 00:50:52,039 --> 00:51:04,239 lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame you work at, hold hold to the lond