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Welcome to the Seafood Matters Podcast.
I'm your host, Jim Cowie. In

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each episode, I speak with industry
leaders, fishery scientists, fishermen and seafood

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chefs. Will highlight the importance of
seafood in our daily lives, economy and

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environment. Whether you catch your own
seafood, love cooking it, or want

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to learn more about where your fish
comes from, you'll find it all here

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on the Seafood Matter's podcast. If
you enjoy this episode, hit subscribe,

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share it with a friend, or
leave a five star review, and you

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can get in touch with me by
visiting seafoodmatterspodcast dot com. Alan Addison Skipper's

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Venture four, which fishes out of
loud Bervie and Scrubster. In this episode,

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we discuss the controversial fishing practices of
foreign own boats landing in the UK,

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and Alan highlights how they wilfully damage
the seabed and accurate stock assessment.

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Exploring the complexities of quota regulations,
Alan suggests a new approach which he believes

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might reduce the growing frustration in the
way or government handles quota management and the

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activities of foreign owned boats in UK
waters. Welcome to Seafood Matters, Alan

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Addison, it's great to see you
on the show. Can I start by

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asking you firstly, when you're leaving
the harbor, what is in your mind?

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I know you have a business to
run and you've got to make a

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profit and pay the crew wages.
How do you balance between a getting enough

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fish, looking for new grounds and
maybe new species, and thinking of the

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future as well, where you don't
want to overfish in the area. Oh,

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just exactly what you said that it's
a balance and arct I mean sometimes

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leaving how I can be quite easy, you've got a plan in your head

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and you're kind of thinking out where
you're going and just be by your previous

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knowledge. At other times quite tricky, especially when like later on in the

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year when CODEA problems of restrictions can
I kick in and you've got to try

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and balance with CODA. You've got
to cotch where you've got to catch it

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this time of year, whether it's
a big deciding factor. You don't want

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to go to an area that you
think there's fish, but you can't get

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fished for the weather, So there's
there's a multitude of things go through your

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head when you leave the harbor.
Normally you'll have a plan in your head

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or a few plants in your head
and hope the first one works and you

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don't have to end up blond,
d u E and f for things like

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that. Normally it's there is certain
times you'll leave the harbor and you're just

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really haven't got much of a clue
where you're going. You'll just kind of

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think about it when you're steaming off. But normally it's pretty you've got a

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plan and whether a plan works,
and usually the first plan doesn't work and

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you've got to go to the plan
by pretty rapidly. M season seasonal at

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the seasons must come in to play
a lot with you guys. But it's

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a major fuck are the seasonsuse?
I mean likes I just now there's been

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there's been good fishing a cord around
about the Faerial area south of Shetland,

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and that's just because the fisher falling
the market all the market boats are now

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west of the butt Luis, so
the fish will befall in the marcrol markrol

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boats. So that's a seasonal thing. Also, when the when the hoddocks

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come to spawn, that's another time
that that's a seasonal day thing as well.

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Once I spawned, they're going to
be so good to eat, so

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that in the merchants of fisher thins
the merchants the prices reduced. So that's

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the time that you try and avoid
cutching hoddocks because it's just wasting a resource.

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Coming on pointing now it's March kind
of time. The end of February,

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start of March, it's just gonna
come out the time that would start

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fishing the deep water west of Hebrides, and that would probably probably fish through

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there March April and may sometimes in
the dune depending on the in the cart

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Straits, and then that's usually a
tailed off. I'll probably try it again

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in November, but usually during December
January February we're on white fish, just

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purely because of the weather unpredictability of
the weather. You need well forever size

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I bought. You need well for
any size I boat. You need relatively

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decent weather conditions for fish and deep
WoT arm during January February, March December,

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January February, it's usually the case
that you get a settled week so

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you can go and prosecute that fishery. I used to always when my restaurant

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had on, I used to open
see the customers. The fantastic thing about

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the Scottish fishery was there's over the
whole twelve months of the year, there's

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always a fish for every dish,
and a dish for every season because maybe

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the spawning cycle would start in the
North Sea and then go west and it

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was always the role was something in
season, whether it was a sea area

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or a species, they're always I
think it was fantastic that there was always

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a fishing season. Mm hmm,
yeah, I totally agree. That's why

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it was something to target and to
try and harvest. It's usually usually when

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usually when they're in season, that's
when the price of uces. It's just

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a supplying demand market. So usually
when they're in season, the first guys

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that get them will be get the
best to ever turn for their efforts.

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That as time goes on and usually
the market forces dictate that the price ga

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slips back and normal services resumed.
How would that command taking that on board?

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How would that command looking for new
grounds and new species, different different

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species for different markets. Because I'm
right, all I know, I'm right

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and saying you've been at the forefront
of a lot of that pioneering by the

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deep water. It's it's it came
really because I necessity with the boats sparking

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the late eighties and early nineties,
so you're speaking thirty years almost forty years

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ago. Now the boats had to
diversify into the deep water because of the

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lock of fishing opportunities on or in
the decline in stocks a whitefish. So

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that was going to just as I
was going to start in a skipper and

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career was in the early nineties and
with Peter Smith and the ambassador and that

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was one of his one of the
few starting. A few guys wanted to

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expand into the deep boat of the
French fleet. It had been there previously,

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they had been before us maybe five
or ten years, so they had

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that they had an established market for
the fish. So it wasn't as if

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it was going to be a marketing
problem we would have ever caught because there

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was a market there for it,
and it's mainly in France and Spain.

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So with that in mind, the
boats started to prosecute the deep water fisher

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eat and initially it would be mainly
for monk fish, and then of course

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there's blue line and black scarboard and
tusk and the less a factor going into

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years and one will At one point
I would have been seeky Portuguese dogfish,

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but theirs when I was restricted landing
list now so we can't land them.

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So the deep water really came out, and this necessity it was as the

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boats the fleet at the time we
weren't really capable could they could prosecuted,

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but the one are really capable to
fish it safely. So there was a

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fleet of boat it's built in the
early mid nineties, just especially for going

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deep water certain times a year.
And as I say, well, it's

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just as you correctly pointed of being
really fished the deep water. Unfortunately,

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IM probably one of the oldest lads
left and still doing it. So I've

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probably probably the most experienced of a
deep water over the period of time that

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the Scottish fleet have been fishing it. You're comment there had been thinking of

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my dear old late mother Alan.
She'sed to say, necessity is the mother

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of invention. It always is.
It's a great, great thing to encourage

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you to try new things. Yeah, obviously the expense of running a fishing

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boat, you can't just go wild
and just say right them away to try

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something, you've got to pay your
way and you know so you must,

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you must do it gradually and working
away at new areas. You see when

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you are amongst fish, what kind
of decide whether you feel thinking of rather

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than fish it out? And I
know you're and a lot of the Scottish

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fleet are very responsible. How would
you address the fact that you felt right

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when when you know there's enough,
you'll leave it to rest or. Oh,

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it's it's usually I guess supplying demand
or your quota restricts you. Usually

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you can see it. You can
see it per whole if you're fish in

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an area and then the whole start
to get progressively poor or less yield per

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whole, and you just know it's
instinctive. You just know it's time to

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just leave this and just move on
and try something else. We spoke briefly

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about this last week when I spoke
to you, and I was thinking about

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it and trying new areas. It's
it's easy when you're when you're quite confident.

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It gets harder when things on the
work and so right, and you

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are if you're cut, if you've
been catching fish and your holes partly full

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of fish. You will go and
try different things. But if you're it's

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been a struggle of a trip,
you're going to find a fish. The

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fish aren't there. You're the encouraged
to go and try different areas because it's

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a gamble, and it's sometimes gomble
just isn't worth taking it. As I

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said, it's a confidence thing.
If you feel that you're constantly making their

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own decision or constantly struggling to cutch
a fish. The thought I go in

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and try new areas or damaging gear, that's just something easy I think I

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would if you are quite confident in
your ability and you've been catching fish,

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and normally a personal level, I
would try a new area at the start

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of a trip to get out of
my mind. So if it comes off,

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it's it's a bonus because you're there. Or at the end of a

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trip when I've got or hopefully got
more catch on board and they didn't.

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We spend a few holes at the
end of a trip just going to be

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exploring a new area, so it's
you're going to be setting yourself up for

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another trip or in the future.
That's it. It's good you're thinking all

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the time the crew did I really
like that. They didn't mind it to

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the starter trip, they didn't.
I like it at the end of a

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trip because that's when you can sometimes
the gear damage or things like got from

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your exploring new areas. So the
cure and not just over enthusiastic about my

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my, my game play. That's
interesting you say that, Alan, because

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that's obviously taking another factor into the
cost of going into new areas, because

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if you're not just quite aware of
the sea beds, like you could do

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expensive damage to your gear. Oh, you can quite easily do a lot

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of damage to your gears, right
if you're in if you're unaware of your

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too and on or an obstruction or
just bad bottom or a multitude of reasons

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why you could be damage to your
gear. No, there's a there's a

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cost to that as well. If
you if you did a lot of damage,

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badly damaged a med where would that
becauseting you? You mean how much

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of value was could be anything up
to anything from ten to thousand pounds.

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That just depends on good This is
that right? So I mean I damaged

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trolly ten. If you use to
lose a troll, you're surobably speaking thirty

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maybe more way if you have troll
doers and sensors, and if quick we

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are two in our gear, what
we're doing is is a rough approximation would

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be about one hundred thousand pounds that
you've got in the bottom any one time,

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probably slightly more than that. So
he didn't know where really want to

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be damaging or losing any of that
kind of kit. It just makes you

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think it miss Hopefully it'll make the
public think and realize the old saying there's

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no such thing as cheap fish,
because with the cost of what you're saying

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there, with gear and the risking
the live factor, should that's a price

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of fish. No, that's right
all but just even yesterday or I had

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a faeryeaese boat had taken quite a
big boat for the seven meters had taken

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a like a rogue wave and I
was twelve of the crew were rescued.

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But are still two crew me mis
sensor, That's that's a true cost.

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Yeah. Yeah, when you're talking
about the grounds and that somebody with your

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experience been fishing a good lot of
years. What's your view on the health

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of our fishing grounds the stocks at
present? I would say healthy, they're

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being fished sustainably by the UK commercial
fleet or white fish fleet. One of

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the the biggest contributing for us to
our biggest things that I've got a concern

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about just now is the static gearboats, the girl nets in the line of

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Yeah, that's that's my by far
my biggest concern with the health of the

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stocks and the the in the North
Sea on the west coast there, they're

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just their efforts increasing year and year, whether it be by number of boats,

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are just the days, the time
they're spending at sea. In the

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last three to five years we've seen
a massive increase in their effort, both

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Spanish and what's Norwegians that's them back
end just now, and it's the Norwegians

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are big boats and they're freezing their
freezing capabilities, are spending a lot of

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time at sea. And no,
it's the the if we're fishing on the

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edge, the shelf edge, we'll
pick up anything from one ton to five

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tons are discarded lost disused gill net
or longline gear per trip. So if

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we're thirty trips a year, you're
speaking anything for thirty to one hundred and

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fifty tons a debris we're picking up
off the bottom. That's one boat that's

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us. It's us individually, and
there's a fleet of Scottish boats then exactly

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saying picking up this static gear that's
been as been lost or disregarded. Now

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we're not fished a gears disregarded.
When we retrieve our troll off the bottom,

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that's it. That's stop fishing.
We're fishing has stopped for that day

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or for that whole night. Guys
lose a net, they lose a gill

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net or a long line that continues
to fish unrestricted forever until somebody goes and

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picks it up. So that's to
me that that's the biggest problem we've got

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on the stocks just now, is
this static gearboats and the influx of them

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into the our wars. They've always
been there, there's all has been a

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fleet to them, but it just
seems to be this last three to five

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years. That impact is impact in
the stocks that we traditionally fish. We

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see it in monk, we've seting, hake, and we see in length

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Now that's the three species that they
would target mainly at that boats, and

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that's the stocks that we are seeing. They're healthy, but they've been healthier.

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That is alarming and just outrageous,
Alan when you say that that tonnage

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of debris, and the thing that
really grates with me on top of that

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is from a shore side obviously as
you know many times and scrubs there and

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a lot of that what I would
call non UK fishing boats with long lane

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and kilnet they land there, a
lot of them land there and what I

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think is it is really unacceptable,
Allen. I do see lots of Scottish

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boats, as you say, putting
all that disused gear ashore, but I

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never see them putting it ashore.
Oh No, It's the galling thing for

203
00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:26,240
us as well as is that the
the Spanish, especially the Spanish fleet are

204
00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:37,240
mainly owned by the company owned boats
and they've been very clever and the way

205
00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:42,720
that they have marketed their fish other
method efficient to the to the the green

206
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,119
eng Us, they've been very clever
to market. It's a sustainable way efficient,

207
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,559
it's a healthy way efficient. They're
not doing any damage to seabed.

208
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:56,799
They've got boycots and things like us. Whereas the paint of the troller or

209
00:19:56,839 --> 00:20:00,480
the mobile fleet it's a bad thing
or damage in the sea bed. Yet

210
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,799
we pick up their gear and sometimes
you'll haul their gear. We dead birds

211
00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:15,279
in it, dead mammals in it. So it's it's definitely an a solution

212
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:26,759
to fishing within a parameter app How
could I put it like bottom damage or

213
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,960
things like that. I mean even
the hooks and still damages the bottom puts

214
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,720
on the bottom. So it's but
they've been very clever to be able to

215
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:41,440
portray it as this really sustainable way
of fishing and environmentally friendly. And the

216
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,000
green groups have obviously been suck dom
weight paid off bat and so they've they've

217
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:52,079
taken it in board as well.
That's what really grades with me as well.

218
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,440
And I remember getting a statistic from
Brussels. We were still in the

219
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:03,480
YOU at the time, so it's
a few years ago now, and they

220
00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:08,640
reckoned with an EU orders which was
including us the UK at the time.

221
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:17,759
Over the course of a year there
was half a million they called it sea

222
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,359
mammals that could be wader, bird
seals, anything like that. Half a

223
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:30,640
million just killed between Gilnet and Long
Lane. And yet and yet they can

224
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:37,720
sell it to the NGOs that it's
sustainable. Yeah, yeah, I just

225
00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:45,799
never could work it a it's it's
it's the method of fishing as well.

226
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,119
And then they same to fishing parks
and there'll be five or six of them

227
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,279
and just go to one area and
they'll just if they get if they do

228
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,079
get fish, and they'll just fish
out the area out until it's just like

229
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,680
a desert so it's just dryer fish
and then move on to the next bit.

230
00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:07,000
And that doesn't And then as far
as I see, I mean like

231
00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:10,839
west West, I sn't Kilda.
They used to fish there in the two

232
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,680
hundred fathoms. This has been bark
ten twelve years ago, and we would

233
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,880
be steaming out past the mayor gunt
Rock all or going to the deep water.

234
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,759
It was like steaming through a village
of boats. It was just like

235
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:23,759
a town of lights. You when
I see a boat there now when you

236
00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:33,319
can't see any fish, they've just
fished it out terrible. And is there

237
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:42,759
any hope with the fishermen that and
after the five years after Brexit that there'll

238
00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:48,440
be anything done about that. I
think there's plenty of hope, But whether

239
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,440
there's a whether hope comes a reality, I severely doubt it. There seems

240
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,200
to be no that seems to we
need direction on need passion for the Scottish

241
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,359
government at the moment to do anything
about it. I mean there's been as

242
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,240
you fully seen the press, there's
been gear conflict with the mobile boats and

243
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:11,000
some of the Spanish fleet up west
of Shetland, and the government seems to

244
00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:17,920
be a loss how to control it
for the day about and it's in the

245
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:22,359
MCA. They just say it's it's
it's out with their realms are controlling so

246
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,240
as it starts just now, it's
almost like a wild West and the Spanish

247
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:27,720
condefy went if they went to try
and follow your propeller, if they went

248
00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:32,119
to try and Rambia, there's nothing. I mean even with video footage or

249
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,480
phone footage, there's absolutely nothing seems
to be able to be done about it.

250
00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:44,160
Is it's ridiculous. It's always became
like a land grab at sea at

251
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,799
the moment. I mean, the
guys going they just grab a diary areas

252
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,519
yes as ours, and that's it
you get here. I mean, it's

253
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:57,480
just just for instance, last week
the Norwegian Gilnet fleet have just got access

254
00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:03,599
into the UK waters just in a
puff a few weeks the dinner deal at

255
00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:10,839
the end of January, and so
there was three or four large new state

256
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,039
of the art Norwegian giral neetboats fishing
west of Shetlands where we were fishing last

257
00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:18,839
week and we're fishing the area and
the guy came down and he asked me

258
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,680
what the area I was fishing in. So I gave my box so he

259
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,960
could keep clear and then he Announcedeve's
got to shoot his gear right in the

260
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,519
middle of my box the box I
gave him. I was like, that's

261
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,200
that's the area it is. I
know you went to fish here, but

262
00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:40,400
I went to fish here too.
That is mendality. After I had actually

263
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,000
giving him the box to stay clear
of. In the end he did move

264
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:45,240
because he said, well, if
you shoot there, you gotta lose your

265
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,000
gear because we'll just i'ma shift.
But that was this mendality. I mean,

266
00:24:49,079 --> 00:24:52,160
it's almost like a bully. They
know as soon as they put their

267
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:59,519
started gear into the water, they've
their rights are stronger than our rights for

268
00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:03,480
being I'm mobile boat, even though
we've been there before them. It's ridiculous,

269
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:11,319
that's really it is outrageous. But
as I say, the government of

270
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:17,519
the authority seem powerless or that doesn't
seem any well to do anything about it.

271
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,160
I don't know if they have the
appetite for it. And that goes

272
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,039
back a long time. Alan.
I remember we won an award. You

273
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,240
wonder where I'm coming from here.
We won an award in the restaurant.

274
00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:34,359
The Times phoned me and they wanted
to do an article. So I was

275
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:42,240
standing in the restaurant at the conservatory
looking out, and the Endeavor was going

276
00:25:42,319 --> 00:25:48,079
to see he'd landed his fash and
he was good back out, David,

277
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:52,200
and the Endeavor was sailing out and
the tight. The guy in the time

278
00:25:52,359 --> 00:26:00,880
system me, what's your views on
the over fishing and the sustainability factor.

279
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:04,880
I says, Well, if you
want my views, I'll tell you.

280
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:11,559
I says. I'm just standing here
speaking to you in my restaurant looking over

281
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:18,839
the harbor, and one of the
most modern effiicient fishing boats in the Scottish

282
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:25,839
fleet is just leaving the harbor going
to the fishing grounds. I said,

283
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:33,799
I would be far, far more
concerned about the future of the fishing and

284
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:42,079
the sustainability if I heard there was
a politician going to negotiate than ever.

285
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:52,000
I feel concerned about watching this modern
boat going to the fishing grounds. Yeah,

286
00:26:52,319 --> 00:27:02,799
I know, it's it's frustrating for
us. That's my biggest is a

287
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,960
compart to your original questions. My
biggest concern for the assessment of the stock.

288
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:15,240
And it appears that there's there's a
lot of the fish that are being

289
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:21,720
caught by that fleet that are going
unregulated or unobserved in the trucks and in

290
00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:26,920
a way, whether it does been
a record of them, they're never monitored

291
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:33,640
doesn't appear so now no, so
I've even heard. I have not officially,

292
00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:38,279
but I've even heard, and I
hope it's not true that Marine Scotland

293
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:51,119
accept the monitoring by their agent.
So the teacher marking his own homework or

294
00:27:51,200 --> 00:28:00,440
the prisoner got his looking after his
own key. Yeah, it's a armin

295
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:07,000
Alan. Have you have you any
thoughts about how what could be done to

296
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:15,799
aim primarily to make it better for
the fishing grounds because they are cutting their

297
00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:19,680
own throats as well. Well,
that's for sure. Well, I mean

298
00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:25,519
they well like the last week,
a lot of the boats didn't sail because

299
00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:27,960
there was no fish. Really,
I was knowing fish because because I've got

300
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:33,880
them, it's there. They did. You seem to go to the same

301
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,160
areas. Can I said that?
Now I'm moving into like show the air,

302
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,640
but I'm guessing that's them just I
when you see them in a shoal

303
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,680
of water. They're now they're now
doing a bit like what we did from

304
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,640
went to deep water. They're experimenting
to see if there's fish there, and

305
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,359
the hand of expanders the fishing opportunities
are looking. Look two different areas to

306
00:28:53,400 --> 00:29:00,559
cutch because they're traditional gowns of the
white clean. Yeah, it's the And

307
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:10,720
do you feel there's people in our
industry that are addressing it or trying to

308
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:18,640
trying to get it across. There
has been between the Shetland Organization and Marian

309
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:25,559
Whitefish. There's been mediums and there's
been directive set up, and there's been

310
00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:33,000
this corridor so the mobile boats can
get towed between them and having their Spanish

311
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:38,519
boats having their gear marked. And
it's never ever really came. It's such

312
00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:45,519
a prickly subject. Nobody really wants
to take it on because the solutions like

313
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:48,759
it's almost like an never ended cycle. Where do you stop? But how

314
00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:52,480
do we start? It's Nebby really
wants to get involved, Nobe wants to

315
00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,559
touch it, to be once waking. Yeah, yeah, I know that

316
00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:06,240
from a previous podcast with Mike Park. He's not overly enthusiastic that the bricks

317
00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:11,240
and negotiations are going to make un
huge in road And did I think,

318
00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:17,920
Mike, I just think it's it's
by the time the five years come,

319
00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,640
there'll be no appetite to for anything
to change with our own government, or

320
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,839
they wouldn't be up for anything of
fight because there has be a turno turmoil

321
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,559
with themselves just now. So I
think after the five years, it'll just

322
00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:37,480
be like the state of school,
they'll just be ays and arm Ideally,

323
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,920
I mean, what we thought was
going to happen, take take control of

324
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,240
our road waters. We could have
been able to limit the amount of boats

325
00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:48,440
that was static gear or we could
have controlled that. But look, so

326
00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:56,240
that's the second happened. And and
do you actually obviously you know the grounds

327
00:30:56,359 --> 00:31:02,960
and when you're talking about wests and
killed, I would view Alan Addison's view

328
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:11,440
Ostes and killed Jim Cowey and his
back garden. Do you actually feel that

329
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:21,119
that's there's no fish there and there's
a little hope that fisher return there the

330
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:29,000
areas that guys have been working h
I would say, because the hen I

331
00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:32,160
really fish there now for a lot
of years, five or six years,

332
00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:34,599
and you'll see the oil boat and
trying it and it doesn't last long when

333
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:41,480
he comes back back east because I
fish there, so to me, I

334
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:48,440
can I just finished that area.
I think it's interesting talking to you about

335
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:56,240
that, Alan, because it's been
a fisherman. You obviously know with the

336
00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:00,319
trends of weather boats, the way
they're thinking and why they're doing things.

337
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:04,559
Well, you just get, you
get, you get used to all.

338
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,319
Even now see with the a S
and everybody you can see everybody in the

339
00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:14,200
a S. So it's just experience. You have an idea what they're kind

340
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,240
of cotch there or why they're going
there to cotch and if they if they

341
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:20,839
aren't, they are long they've either
they haven't caught anything or the fishing has

342
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,519
been fantastic. But the afishing is
fantastic. We go back again, but

343
00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:27,119
it's never usually go back again.
They'll leave it a few months before the

344
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:36,000
de Troy it again. And from
speaking to a number of the Scottish fishermen,

345
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,079
I believe they can be very aggressive
and as you say, and Cans

346
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:51,880
have even heard the boats being surrounded
completely. Either can be if you if

347
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:57,200
you to anywhere near the gear,
or they'll come towards I want more than

348
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,319
one, and I'll come towards you
and can try and intimidate. Hey,

349
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,759
I get it. They didn't want
to lose our gea, but likewise we

350
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,480
did. I want to tow through
their gear because usually if you tour through

351
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,720
their gear, it disrupts our haul
down it stop fishing. If we pick

352
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:13,640
up their gear, it disrupts our
holes when we've end up hauling, so

353
00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:16,480
it's lost time for us as well. So it's like it's of course as

354
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:23,240
we didn't I want to be able
to haul a gear earlier or damage damage

355
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:30,200
their gear intentionally. But they know
they can be quite intimidating and that's going

356
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:37,440
that's going five meters. They can
be quite intimidating when there's a few of

357
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,519
them, when they go yeah yeah, well, I mean look at that

358
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:49,440
walking in case with the Alison k
when they obviously there's a video of them,

359
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:55,440
they actually could have caused serious damage
and very little was done about it.

360
00:33:55,599 --> 00:34:00,039
Well, that same boat when the
Diaries waters and the something similar and

361
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:06,519
he ended up in court. So
the Irish were more up for the fight

362
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,599
than the UK. I strict to
the guy, the Irish guys go and

363
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,840
there was one just lately with the
Levick was in defiance and defiant when the

364
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,239
Levick boats he had the incident and
the same again it was it was a

365
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,360
close court a situation and he hid
it and he'd videoed it or some of

366
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,599
the guys's video in the phone.
So to me, it was a it

367
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:30,199
was a black white case that the
guys who doctored intimidating monarch. But like

368
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:43,719
like again, there's just nothing seems
to happen. Terrible. See previous podcasts.

369
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:51,760
We've had some icy scientists and Mike
Park as well, and they reckon

370
00:34:52,360 --> 00:35:00,719
that the younger generation of scientists are
putting a lot of credence and that to

371
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:07,280
work and get information from and with
fishermen. Do you find that could be

372
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,280
encouraging? It would be encourage It
would be encouraging if it was true.

373
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:23,800
I kind of scene I witnessed any
any increase in scientific collaboration with the fishing

374
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:30,360
industry in the last few years.
To me, the fisherman's knowledge is a

375
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:42,199
resource that's being wasted every year.
It's wasted. I've done scientific trips before.

376
00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:46,880
We I wasn't I was on the
scotiaft trip as a few years ago.

377
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:55,519
Now a deep water trip in both
scientific observers away and ago in the

378
00:35:55,559 --> 00:36:00,360
same week or the same two weeks
a year to the same location, and

379
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,119
I get the win the time series. So that's why they're doing it.

380
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:12,039
But fish fish acting trends. But
their trends are necessary specific because they're going

381
00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:15,119
to rock up the same week every
year. There's a load of variables.

382
00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:17,719
You've got tide, you've got environment, you've got weather, you've got feeding.

383
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,559
So I mean that survey is a
week early, a week late,

384
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,480
or two weeks earlier, two weeks
late, and they've got mister fish or

385
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:35,039
so. It hasn't helped us much
in the last thirty forty years science.

386
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,519
If anything, that's hindered the scientific
effort. And yet to me, we're

387
00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:45,679
the fishermen. There's fishermen on the
grounds seven days a week, fifty two

388
00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:52,039
weeks a year. Yet our knowledge, our experience, isn't it taken into

389
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:57,880
consideration. It's never asked for,
it's never We've tried through various methods,

390
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,280
through like monkfish tollybooks of things like
given the scientist our information what we've got,

391
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:09,199
But we're seeing it's never used,
it's collaborated, it's it's never enough

392
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:16,519
or they never trust us enough is
believe it, and that's frustrated. It's

393
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:21,360
got to be. It's got to
be, especially when it's responsible guys like

394
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:30,480
yourself that are looking to the future
stocks and as many fishermen of open said,

395
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,880
what's why wouldn't we do it sustainably
or want to do it sustainably?

396
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:45,559
Is when you think of the investment
and money and time and future and taking

397
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:52,760
families and why would have scot this
fishermen not wanting to do it sustainably?

398
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:57,559
Well, it's that, I mean, this sea is important to me,

399
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,639
it's my Lifely would so we provide
for my family. It's been a tradition

400
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:08,559
through my family for generations. Why
why would I they wanted to be continued

401
00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:12,360
for future generations? Why would I
want me? Why would I want like

402
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,280
to be the last fisherman? Does
make sense? Maybe that's maybe that's a

403
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:23,320
small, small village community mindset.
I'm not sure, but that's a mindset

404
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:32,599
that there is totally. I'm right
with you there one hundred percent. The

405
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:40,079
whether what they're saying is the new
generation, whether they're not completely through yet

406
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:45,920
that they're that there. It sound
sounded very encouraging to me. I must

407
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:55,320
ask again, because from what you're
saying there definitely Jim, I as I

408
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,440
say, but as you saying,
maybe this new scientist on the through yet

409
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:05,079
or but as I say, for
a personal point of view, I have

410
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:15,559
seen I haven't seen any increase scientific
activity or being asked or anybody showing any

411
00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:22,320
more interesting what the fishermen are doing
or what we're seeing or landing or to

412
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:30,320
my knowledge it isn't there. Nothing's
changed for years. I totally get where

413
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:36,000
you're coming from. There when you
see nothing changing, and even on the

414
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:44,800
way they get their find their statistics. Because even in a situation where I

415
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:51,719
know from my cousin of mine who
you know, Davy from Helmsdilli and the

416
00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:58,679
Board of Banilly over fifty years ago, there was the Marine Lab got in

417
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,400
touch with them. They wanted to
do some put somebody out scientist out with

418
00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:12,239
him and do a haddack survey.
And he says to them, you'll not

419
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,360
get Hardrick. Just now, he
says, where you're going to fish this

420
00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:19,880
time of the year. He says, you're not going to get a haddache.

421
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,880
Oh, we need to go.
We need to go, And so

422
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:30,280
they went and they didn't get a
haadache. And he always felt annoyed and

423
00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:37,920
frustrated that if that data was being
used while it wasn't accurate, because and

424
00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:43,519
he told them that, Well that
was about fifty years ago. Last year,

425
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:50,159
I was talking to somebody in Shetland
who was telling me almost exactly the

426
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:58,119
same scientists phoned they wanted to do
a herring survey and got in touch with

427
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:04,239
one of the logics and in Jetland
what they go and the skipper says to

428
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,199
them, you won't get hearing just
now. And he says, you won't

429
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,719
get it where you're going, where
you're wanting to go, No, no,

430
00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:16,519
we need to go. So within
fifty years, two different species,

431
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,960
the exact situation, and they didn't
get hearing the same as what Davy told

432
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:28,599
them. They didn't get harded fifty
years before that. Well, you can

433
00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:34,800
see, you can see my frustration. Say, the actual the actual fisherman's

434
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,639
voice is rarely listened to, and
as a major stakeholder on the whole thing,

435
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:46,559
in fact fully the main stakeholder,
it's a travesty. Wudn't they did

436
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:50,639
not listen to the fishermen tell them
and to be to be honest, it

437
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:53,760
wouldn't be allowed in any other industry
that I wouldn't been another industry going that

438
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,079
the major stakehold older. Hasn't he
got a voice or isn't it listened to?

439
00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:07,679
Yeah, yeah, no, it's
I can I can completely understand your

440
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,239
frustration, and I know where you're
coming from, and I know you're genuine

441
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,920
and I've known you a long time
so I know you as a person.

442
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:21,559
But also, as you know,
I'm speaking to dozens of fishermen, Scottish

443
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:27,360
fishermen over the course of the months
and years and scrabs it and there's not

444
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:32,760
one of them speaking anyways different to
what you're saying. So even you could

445
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,960
say, well he would say that, but you can't because there are dozens

446
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,679
of saying the exact same thing.
So everybody is not wrong. No,

447
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,280
that's all. It would be the
point a lion, if it was the

448
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,599
point of telling untruth. That's the
way it is. It's you'd be said,

449
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,679
you'd be found out pretty quick if
you were, if you were making

450
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,400
up a story that wasn't it true? That that's the longest short this is

451
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,239
true. I mean, just what
you're saying, I mean we did like

452
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:07,519
a monk survey and the one they
wanted to hear a hole off Buda Lewis

453
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,320
on the hard bottom and brought hard
bodom the monks and I live there.

454
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:13,840
When I get up, you could
to the different Now the Christmas time,

455
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:16,480
you'll never see a monk there.
But that's that was the position and that's

456
00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:20,400
where they wanted to shoot. You're
like, what's the point of this?

457
00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:24,880
Okay for his story, it was
nice that we're doing a survey that was

458
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:30,480
a boat doing a a monk for
servis a few years ago. Now,

459
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,960
in one of the positions he was
told to shoot was actually on land.

460
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:42,320
That's how that's how much that's how
much in depth had its actually been done

461
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,119
into this And he says, I'm
not shooting there on the sign that said

462
00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:50,440
why not? He says, what's
on the land. So there you go.

463
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,599
A pity that wasn't exposed. I
think I maybe need to get the

464
00:43:54,639 --> 00:44:06,519
efficient news order that one. Well, well that's just And do you feel

465
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:10,719
going back to the same action speaks
louder than words. Do you think there's

466
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:16,559
my legion that if they were practicing
what they preach Allen, would it be

467
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:22,280
my legion it for you guys and
for the for the mis stokes if cooperation

468
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,519
fishermen definitely must be, has to
be. I mean, this is a

469
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:30,840
fishermen are the major stakeholder. We've
got the biggest, we've got the most

470
00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:36,320
to win or lose. But it's
a scientists are controlling how much we can

471
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,000
catch. So surely if we're involved, that's a good thing. Has to

472
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:45,119
be a good thing. I mean, if you've got one one body dictating

473
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:52,760
or how could I put it,
implement in our shape and how much fish

474
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,000
are out the cuts without the input
of the major stakeholders, it must be

475
00:44:57,079 --> 00:45:00,239
wrong. It must be better to
hey, a bit call collaboration between the

476
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:09,639
scientists and the fishing industry and a
share and a knowledge. Definitely. Yeah.

477
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:17,119
Even another podcast we did with Michael
Kaiser of Herriot Watt University. At

478
00:45:17,199 --> 00:45:22,519
one stage, after listening for a
while, I says, Michael, I

479
00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:29,199
says, I just don't get this. I can't understand what There's a break

480
00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:36,599
down somewhere in the process the system. Because it says you talk about wanting

481
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:42,880
to speak to fisherman, I says, I speak to lots and lots of

482
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,800
fishermen all the time, and I
says, they're desperate to speak to you.

483
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,960
I said, so, what is
it not happening? Mm hmm,

484
00:45:52,719 --> 00:46:00,400
I'm going sure. It's like it's
like monkfisher class this daughta poor. They

485
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:06,679
have been for as long as I
know. Yet in the nineteen nineties when

486
00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:10,639
I was with Peter Peter Smith,
we were handing our log sheets into the

487
00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:16,119
fishing office and booket so they could
monitor for monk fish who are London.

488
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:22,920
It's forty years ago. I mean, how much data doesn't need It's ridiculous.

489
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:28,519
Stell Coss is da data poor stock
the most daughta. It's a lot

490
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:32,079
of the surveys they're doing, and
they've done over the years. Yeah,

491
00:46:32,159 --> 00:46:42,880
it's still classes daughta poor. And
it's so for me to get the fisher

492
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:45,840
to get the fishermen and the scientists
to work more together, that'll be a

493
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,360
massive thing for the industry, huge
thing, the biggest step forward from our

494
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:57,000
generation. If it would if it
would work, But for reasons one beknown

495
00:46:57,119 --> 00:47:04,880
to me, fishermen aren't trusted.
There's an element that mistrust between the scientific

496
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,199
and likewise it's vice versa. We
did not trust them because their figures didn't

497
00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:12,599
agree with we are saying away beaking. I think there's a bit of politics

498
00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:17,400
can evolved with the figures that ICs
can out being and then obviously they felt

499
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,760
it at TC, So it's both
ways. But I get the feeling that

500
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:30,079
FISHERM and I clost is like CLASSUS
rogues and we're trying to work the system

501
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:34,480
and everything benefits for cell. And
to be fair, that was maybe true

502
00:47:34,519 --> 00:47:37,360
in the past, but the way
things are nowadays, the fleets, the

503
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,719
white even the white fish fleet US
is so streamlined, US so few boats,

504
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,559
and everything's mere a professional operation looking
for look into the future, I

505
00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:52,639
think the boom bust beyond the days
of the seventies and eighties that will never

506
00:47:52,760 --> 00:48:00,239
come bark, and that mentality I'll
never come bark. We often describe to

507
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:07,440
people now, but you used to
see a fisherman. We saw a fisherman

508
00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:14,119
in the past. This is what
you see now is a businessman m the

509
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:20,000
successful boats. The businessmen are good
at it. Well, it's it's it's

510
00:48:20,039 --> 00:48:22,360
not just a catching of fishes,
it's that's everything that goes along with it.

511
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:29,840
It's kind as you've sent yourself to
me al and that's why they call

512
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:35,199
it the fishing and not the catches. Well, that's say that's true.

513
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,159
Going back with the n g os, have you had any views on which

514
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:45,199
I totally have to say before and
maybe shouldn't say that, but I totally

515
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,880
disagree with it. But you get
the Marine Conservation Society on their website,

516
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:58,760
you'll see a good Fish guide and
there's a traffic light system. Red.

517
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:08,320
It's our stock that's poor, poorly
poor stalk and it shouldn't be eaten at

518
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:14,119
all, touched amber it's not too
bad, so you can eat it in

519
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:22,159
moderation. Green is sustainable and you
can eat it a pretty clear conscience.

520
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:30,119
I've just I told them myself direct
to them as well. I just feel

521
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:36,480
fish conservation is far more complex and
to put it down to three colors,

522
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:43,320
well, initially I would I would
question for the collect their data FAF is

523
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,800
it is it ices that are getting
the statistics fair or is it Landing's So

524
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:54,159
I'd be very skeptical where the where
the sourced their information to generate this traffic

525
00:49:54,239 --> 00:50:02,239
light Ices of the ICY scientists have
told me on the previous podcast that it's

526
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:07,079
them they get their data from it's
I used to get the data from Okay,

527
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:15,280
it's there was an example on their
website which I and it's just funny

528
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:22,440
from not funny but obvious from what
you've been saying already about the data,

529
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:31,599
poor monkfish and gil Neet and the
damage that it does to the future of

530
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:44,079
the seabeds, and that they described
monkfish in their amber light and said it's

531
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:51,239
slow growing. It just to be
in moderation. It's slow growing. But

532
00:50:52,119 --> 00:51:00,360
we they advised that if you were
eating monkfish, go with a sure monk

533
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:09,719
fows that's been Gilnet cought. Okay, so there were that there you go.

534
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:19,199
It's it's that's just I spoke about
earlier the the Gilnet companies being very

535
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,599
clever and being able to whether it's
through being clever, crafty, or just

536
00:51:27,159 --> 00:51:32,800
financial rewards, have managed to infiltrate
the green groups and manage to model their

537
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:39,840
thinking or positioned their way of thinking. That's a prime example of it.

538
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:45,440
Three weeks. I mean, how
how is that mature gil neet caught monk

539
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:50,920
any more sustainable after we've just spoken
about than a monk caught by a mobile

540
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:58,760
boat. It's just makes sense.
I mean regarding the trafflic system after years

541
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:04,679
a misinformation, I'd be very dubious. That's traffic lights system. I mean

542
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,280
what we'll remember the one hundred cod
in the North Sea cod left and the

543
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:13,519
North Sea story the Guardian printed about
ten years ago, and it's just it's

544
00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:17,280
just not true. It's just that's
near the industry would put up with mischief's

545
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:27,320
been publicly printed and and NAT challenge
it's ridiculous. That's true. That's true,

546
00:52:29,159 --> 00:52:31,800
and that that is historic as well. That that part of it,

547
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:38,079
because I can remember even my foot
when my father was at sea, and

548
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:45,000
that was the sixties, and he
used to he used to say the same

549
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:49,440
thing, and he said, the
biggest problem we had then was it was

550
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:54,280
the fishing was such a small part
of the GDP. It it would be

551
00:52:54,320 --> 00:53:00,440
a major part of the coastal communities
economy of of them, but it was

552
00:53:00,519 --> 00:53:08,360
such a small percentage to the gross
the GDP in the UK that it didn't

553
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:14,360
get the voice or the ears it
should get. That was in the sixties.

554
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:19,320
That's the sixties. I suppose to
say, you have plenty of politicians

555
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,519
landowners, but you've never a politician
where a shareholder a fish indoate, so

556
00:53:22,559 --> 00:53:30,239
that there's obviously there's allegiances are towards
them other things in the fish the fishing

557
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:40,239
industry, they know about the with
with the scientists and view the way.

558
00:53:42,159 --> 00:53:47,360
I often think it must be an
absolute mindfield for you guys when you're recording

559
00:53:47,519 --> 00:53:55,119
the data when every operation, when
you're hauling your gear and you've you've got

560
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:01,360
what's good? Is it when the
fish with what fish goes down to the

561
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:07,360
fish room? Is that what you
record? And how d'ye record it?

562
00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:15,119
Because aye. One of the questions
I put to Mark Dickie Coolis, the

563
00:54:15,519 --> 00:54:20,840
Icy scientist, was as is right, we're on rock All, we're on

564
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,880
the boat or boat in rock All, we're hauling the net. It's one

565
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:32,159
net, one sea area. We've
got cord, haddock and monkfish on board

566
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:40,960
and when it comes to they all
go together in the fish room. They've

567
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:45,639
all come out of the same fishing
grounds. But when it goes on to

568
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:52,039
the log sheet to be recorded,
they have to go down for different see

569
00:54:52,079 --> 00:54:57,840
areas. One species would go down
for rock All and another would be west

570
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:04,480
of Scotland. And whether it's a
buck pass or not, I don't know,

571
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:09,199
but he says, oh, that's
a manager's problem. Well, I

572
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:15,400
would say he's incorrect. It's it's
the problem if he's if he's if he's

573
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,440
affair the code of managers, it's
it's the management problem. That problem lies

574
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:24,400
squarely at the feed of the skipper
or the owner, each individual skipper owner,

575
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:31,079
depending on his code allocation or for
any given species for any given area,

576
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,639
that will that's their problem. It
will vary in soize for each skipper

577
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:42,239
boat to boat and further fishing.
And the problem is quote allocation you've got

578
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,239
for whatever species you're cutting. So
it's if he's speaking about code of managers,

579
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:52,800
it's the manager's problem. There they
manager stop the quote and allocated to

580
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,519
the boats and where the boats cuts
it, and that's a skipper's problem.

581
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,679
Yeah, it's a scooper's problem.
But yeah, that's what I mean it

582
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:09,920
is because I just felt when he's
sitting about the manager's problem that was in

583
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:19,719
how where it should be recorded and
and and for sort of quota purposes.

584
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:25,079
But I just felt, well,
the s fisherman that's catching it, he

585
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:34,800
could end up breaking the law or
something that just doesn't make sense. See

586
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,559
ices to the ices are they're treading
a fine line. As far as I

587
00:56:38,679 --> 00:56:45,800
was aware, ICES was an advisory
body, but they're to me, they're

588
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:51,960
now crossing the line at the managing
at times that there's the advice they're given

589
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,280
and they're almost wanted to manage the
stock rather and just advise the managers.

590
00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:06,239
Lately, I feel that there's are
treading a very fine line. Ices the

591
00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:13,960
podcast with this Mark Dickie Coolis.
I asked him that very question and I

592
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:20,639
said a concern, a real concern
with fishermen that ICES are meant to have

593
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,960
to be an advisory role, but
they're getting more and more involved in management.

594
00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:37,679
You know what his answer was,
I completely agree with you. So

595
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:45,880
what you're saying there is exactly what
other fishermen Bill Allen, and that's an

596
00:57:45,039 --> 00:58:04,000
icy scientist accepting it. So it's
get really quite alarming when you think of

597
00:58:05,239 --> 00:58:09,079
the impact. I mean, how
would you would you going back to this

598
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:16,400
when you're logging fish in an area
that must be a minefield for you?

599
00:58:16,599 --> 00:58:28,719
Is h it's I say, it's
it's compark to what I said that it

600
00:58:29,079 --> 00:58:36,880
just depends with the code you've got
for that area, if it's skin time

601
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,400
of year, things like that.
Que you've got left or why if why

602
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:47,440
you be there? It's never an
easy jab. It's certainly certainly not easy,

603
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:53,559
and but was it? Is there? Something now is a north is

604
00:58:53,679 --> 00:58:58,960
north some of the north Sea code
is going to open up the West coast

605
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:06,280
again either hoping that there's a flexibility
now with the knowledge that the cord is

606
00:59:07,079 --> 00:59:10,960
they've made it into three stocks,
so that the western stock, the north

607
00:59:12,039 --> 00:59:15,719
Sea what we would call north Sea
in the West Coast stops the same stock.

608
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:21,079
So there's gonna be a great effect
flexibility with the quota for the North

609
00:59:21,119 --> 00:59:25,039
Sea into the West coast, so
there should be more tournage a cord going

610
00:59:25,079 --> 00:59:28,920
into the West coast for us to
coach. So it's coming off of the

611
00:59:30,039 --> 00:59:37,280
like a Bycotch situation and going on
to tonage tournage I'm out, which has

612
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,840
yet to be a grade on.
There's various ways that they think a would

613
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,360
day in it, and I was
obviously going to be winners and losers.

614
00:59:45,559 --> 00:59:50,360
The guys that have maybe fish West
predominantly fish West, feel that they should

615
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:54,840
get a by aushare because that are
historical grounds us guys maybe fishing north Sea

616
00:59:55,079 --> 00:59:58,639
and they've got to holdings in the
west coast and they want to be able

617
00:59:58,639 --> 01:00:01,320
to benefit as well. So so
a bit of a minefield just now where

618
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:06,599
has been nothing as far as I'm
awareness and agreed with how that extra quote

619
01:00:06,679 --> 01:00:14,159
is going to be or a flexibility
quote has been allocated. Yet would that

620
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:21,639
would that take away the four degree
line to a point? To a point

621
01:00:21,719 --> 01:00:28,599
it would if that depends how much
flexibility they allow on how much. But

622
01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:34,440
for four degree lin a lot of
disappear I've seen as long as you've got

623
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:39,159
area six and area four as fishing
areas, four degree ling will always exists,

624
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:47,599
I would imagine. And is that
just only for cod cod? Cod

625
01:00:47,679 --> 01:00:52,519
is a bigger thing just now.
There has been flexibility with monk, that

626
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:57,360
has been flexibility with hate. I
think it's cool. There has been a

627
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:00,639
bit of flexibility with our species as
well, but it varies for a year

628
01:01:00,679 --> 01:01:06,480
a year, it's it's available to
be pass one side. Sometimes it Cake

629
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:08,360
could could come east, but they
couldn't go west. It was second.

630
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:13,079
It didn't really work for us,
but it was anyway. That's the way

631
01:01:13,119 --> 01:01:20,280
it was. Getting back to your
recording thing, there's a probably heard about

632
01:01:21,119 --> 01:01:29,840
an up that they've been developing.
Well, then SF and white fish.

633
01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:36,079
It's called back up and it's it
was primary primarily designed for a cord and

634
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:42,519
waiting like a Boycots species in the
West coast. If if you there's an

635
01:01:42,599 --> 01:01:49,440
up on your phone, if you
encounter catches over a turn per whole,

636
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:55,280
you would you would be then your
tournage per hole according white and regardless and

637
01:01:55,400 --> 01:02:00,199
if if it's over a ton,
alert would good to everybody with us up

638
01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:04,679
on their phone to alert them that's
cord in this area, with the idea

639
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,639
being the boats would stay clearer the
code. The same with whitings. Now

640
01:02:08,639 --> 01:02:14,880
they've done it for dogfish now as
well. It's been when it's going offen

641
01:02:15,039 --> 01:02:19,519
endangered list. Dog fish is now
in the up as well. So there's

642
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,159
obviously that the boats went avoid cutching
dog fishes, especially this time of year,

643
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:30,840
and so that's been for the report
and it But again this information is

644
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:37,400
there, it's been going now for
maybe two years, three years, but

645
01:02:37,599 --> 01:02:40,320
as far I'm aware, none of
the information has been used besides yet and

646
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:46,599
they've got they'll have it. Yeah, And it's that's that's that's live information.

647
01:02:46,719 --> 01:02:50,800
That's that's information and an hourly basis
Basically I mean, it's every time

648
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,800
you hall, so it's it's it's
a daily it's it's as good as information

649
01:02:54,920 --> 01:03:01,119
she'll get it's live m h,
it's ye just comes over women. What

650
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:07,920
more can fishermen do? What's it
trying? What's what more can they do?

651
01:03:07,039 --> 01:03:14,000
Because they're trying everything they can.
That's really very sad that it's not

652
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:21,599
used and acted. It's going to
afford and you'll just see that the like

653
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:25,239
the areas have been made into like
get talked against like shape and you would

654
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:30,639
just see like if it's been a
high cotch a chord recording, it'll be

655
01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:36,960
like a cutch per unit effort.
So you'll see how much cod this areas

656
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:45,239
will be highlighted and red so that
you can avoid them. Yeah, oh,

657
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:55,400
well where do you see the future? Well, stockwise, in the

658
01:03:55,480 --> 01:04:05,360
futures features as good as it's been, I would say it's an if you

659
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:15,519
could see that the stocks were decreasing
or shrinking and size or everything, as

660
01:04:15,599 --> 01:04:23,480
long as it's continued to be saying
fish sustainably. Obviously there's there's there's issues

661
01:04:23,559 --> 01:04:29,719
and within like I said, you
get the small headache hard it COUTE increased

662
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:33,199
hugely this year in the North Sea
and you think that's great, but mainly

663
01:04:33,239 --> 01:04:38,519
in the North it's small headache.
And then as a suppli demand thing again

664
01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:43,920
there's now the processes to process a
small heddach. So though the headline and

665
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:49,239
the paper looked x amount a million
extra code available for Scottish fleet to cotch

666
01:04:49,559 --> 01:04:55,840
in, the reality is a look
that's basically worthless because you kind of get

667
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,239
ridu you the wester coutch that you
kind of get it. It's dark kind

668
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:05,519
of things that that need addressing,
like the amount of small hedic guanan and

669
01:05:05,639 --> 01:05:13,679
depressing the price in a mixed fishery, and it's it's you can't avoid them.

670
01:05:13,719 --> 01:05:19,559
It's it's so it's but then the
fish are there. And that's another

671
01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:29,239
thing is that I'm back to a
few questions ago. Is a mistrust we

672
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,519
saw this rices within the fishing industry
as well. Is this massive swings a

673
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,119
coda? I mean there's like a
North Sea hodoch this year, massive increase

674
01:05:38,239 --> 01:05:45,159
hundreds and forever west percent and it
happened at all a few years ago.

675
01:05:45,159 --> 01:05:49,960
It's massive uplifting. The other ask
any fisherman in a stock never moves that

676
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:54,480
amount in a year, never moves
that amount a year. If a stock's

677
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,519
decreasing will be a gradual decrease of
stocks increases a gradual increase. So to

678
01:05:58,639 --> 01:06:01,159
me, this massive increases it.
It's created a time when you can you

679
01:06:01,239 --> 01:06:06,320
hear about you think that's that's numbers, just nonsense. It's just it's nearly

680
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:10,800
reality because this doesn't happen in reality. There's not a stock in the world

681
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:15,159
will just increase one hundred percent of
space for a year. This doesn't happen.

682
01:06:16,159 --> 01:06:20,079
And then I just love hearing you
saying that because one of the points

683
01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:27,159
has meant to that icy scientist Marked
Gicolas. I said, you and ices

684
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:33,719
you were recommending and you put through
is it a sixty three percent increase and

685
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:42,079
cord last year, that says,
but the fear amongst fishermen was sixty three

686
01:06:42,199 --> 01:06:45,480
percent. Looks good, that says, but it's such such a low point

687
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:53,119
where sixty three percent there's nothing,
there's nothing that says so they were you

688
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:57,760
were in a low point. That
says that you put a sixty three percent

689
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,719
increase and now last this is last
year, and I says, you're recommending

690
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:10,559
a seventeen percent decrease, and that's
exact words I says fishermen. Fishermen do

691
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:18,000
not see that swings and fluctuation in
the stocks that that you're coming with there

692
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:26,679
now this massive swings ices are suggesting. To me, it just weakends our

693
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,559
argument for everything because if the Hobbit, if the model they're using for whatever

694
01:07:30,719 --> 01:07:36,360
specie, if the Hobbit Publish Act
figures to allow a massive stock, well,

695
01:07:36,599 --> 01:07:41,880
to me, all of all of
their models must be flawed because it

696
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:46,239
just doesn't happen. But hey,
just humble fishermen, would we know?

697
01:07:47,719 --> 01:07:55,119
But and then the point the message
that comes over to me loud so loud

698
01:07:56,039 --> 01:08:04,280
with this conversation is here, you're
you're widely you're confident that there's a future

699
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:11,360
in the fishing, which I think
is a great message and a great signal

700
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:16,399
to get out. But it's obviously
where your concerns lie, because most of

701
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:24,279
our concern has been about the scientists, most of our conversation. But they

702
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:29,479
are dictating, They dictate everything everything
boys do at the end of the day,

703
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:35,680
Yeah, yeah, because probably the
politician, it's them they'll listen to

704
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:40,720
Oh, they'll listen to them.
Well, they when I listened to fish

705
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:50,600
fisherman's they got voicely not scientific the
level. Yeah, and I also completely

706
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:55,760
agree with that very valid point you
made there, Alan. I think the

707
01:08:55,960 --> 01:09:01,640
shore side emerchants and processors, they're
really feel I feel that they really need

708
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:14,800
to do something two correct that situation
because the small Haddachs or not there's no

709
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,840
market for them. But the fact
is there is a market for them,

710
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:23,800
but they need to get them to
that market. They need to get processing

711
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:30,640
and get them to that market.
The demand is there m hm. That

712
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,880
is there is one of them getting
machines or or there's a development with it

713
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:39,640
with some kind of machines that are
going to be able to obviously the de

714
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:47,319
things clickalority things, but or eliminate
the issue with the process and capacity.

715
01:09:48,279 --> 01:09:54,520
But how long that's going to take? How long that's this year? The

716
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,359
thing is? I mean next year, I just come out and then just

717
01:09:57,399 --> 01:10:01,960
say we'll get to cut the I'll
see one hundred percent, because that doesn't

718
01:10:03,119 --> 01:10:10,960
long term goal or future planning earth. And it's even if you've got even

719
01:10:11,039 --> 01:10:14,399
this annual thing I think is outdated. I think it should be like a

720
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,600
five year plan and this should take
like a five year so everybody knows what

721
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:20,119
I'm doing for the next five year
and then revise it. And it's because

722
01:10:20,399 --> 01:10:24,800
a stock snag at the collapse in
a space for a year, so to

723
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:32,039
be this annual negotiations, it's it's
it's it's outdated. I've got a plan

724
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:39,960
in mind to get back to another
podcast with ices and ask them when are

725
01:10:40,039 --> 01:10:45,359
we going to get as it is
forty years not enough to come to take

726
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:54,560
monkfish out of data. I'll laughing, but it's just deadly serious, just

727
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:59,840
nonsense, absolutely shocking. Every meeting
you go there and it's a monk fish

728
01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:04,079
is how can it be? That? A poor for whereas information went?

729
01:11:04,359 --> 01:11:11,520
It's yeah, yeah, how do
you feel about technology? Get more?

730
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:16,079
Can be more into things? Obviously
with that app that must that is that

731
01:11:16,279 --> 01:11:21,800
something that could be taken further or
more people get the scientists in on it

732
01:11:23,079 --> 01:11:26,279
or of the access to it now, well I massure if they've got access

733
01:11:26,319 --> 01:11:29,760
to it, but I mean that
they are development there hoping like to use

734
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,800
it in the North Sea and I
mean you could put in every specie if

735
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:40,199
you wanted int it then and it's
anonymous, so you've got to be in

736
01:11:40,279 --> 01:11:42,880
the You've got to be in the
pool to be able to use it.

737
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:45,600
But it's not like you could see
like a catch a coat somewhere and say,

738
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:49,479
well that's mister X or skip a
rex. He's got his quote because

739
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:56,520
it's anonymous son nebty knows who unless
you're your ac end up there and you

740
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,239
see the boat, you wouldn't know
who it is. It's then that forgether.

741
01:12:00,199 --> 01:12:09,439
So there's a there's no identity to
the to the information. The the

742
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:15,840
identity obviously the the up managers of
can obviously see. But that was one

743
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:21,079
of the things that the fishing industry
was mainly concerned about the start was can

744
01:12:21,159 --> 01:12:28,399
you if somebody was recorded a cut
like just say cordfish and on the west

745
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:31,720
coast, Well, obviously you've got
a discard bar and you've got a percent,

746
01:12:32,239 --> 01:12:34,680
would you be liable for prosecution?
And if you put and seeing you

747
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:39,760
caught this call accord But I thought
was one of the things that the industry

748
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:44,520
can a fisherman and I said,
look, we need a better on immunity

749
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,760
here, so there's any chance of
being prosecuted. But we're telling you there

750
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:54,159
was card there, but we're not
telling youth we did with them. I'm

751
01:12:54,800 --> 01:13:00,119
not taking the science to side Alan, but I'm a bit skeptical about what

752
01:13:00,239 --> 01:13:05,680
you said there just a little bit. You're saying that it's anonymous, but

753
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:15,439
I'm quite sure if somebody put in
hold the code, Alan Anderson would know

754
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:30,319
exactly who it was. Maybe it's
an idea the same as you're the same

755
01:13:30,399 --> 01:13:38,439
as sorry, the same as you
worked out with the non UK boats how

756
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:44,840
they go to some areas and how
quick they leave it. But no that

757
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:49,760
that that type of that type of
advancement. But technology should be being used

758
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,960
to our advantage, and I fully
think it has been used to our total

759
01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:03,560
advantage. If I'm honest, you
know, technology has a great future and

760
01:14:04,039 --> 01:14:11,680
well if we use it properly.
But it's just a device. It's not

761
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,319
life and death. But one of
the things that fascinates me talking to you

762
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:23,359
all, what is what's what's coming
across here? It is your mindset and

763
01:14:25,159 --> 01:14:31,239
you're the way you think and that
you're a you're a let's let's let's lose

764
01:14:31,319 --> 01:14:39,399
sight of the fact you're a hunt
there, and it's it's nature's coming onto

765
01:14:39,399 --> 01:14:47,319
the interplay as well, and seasons
and and everything. So it's it's obviously

766
01:14:50,079 --> 01:14:57,760
I think it's brilliant and that's why
I enjoy speaking so much with fisherman.

767
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:03,239
I just love the way it's think
and see things, and and maybe a

768
01:15:03,319 --> 01:15:08,760
little bit of suspicion as well.
And you know, I'm quite sure if

769
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:14,640
a fisherman was to tell you where
he was and what he caught, you

770
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:21,399
would you would take a fork and
knife. Dad, You know you're right.

771
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:26,439
I mean, well, I enjoy
going to see It's one of the

772
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,000
last occupancies that you are, like
a hunter gatherer, and there's that kind

773
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,520
of primal instinct that you're left it's
a base. It's when you leave harbor,

774
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:40,600
you're basically put in your wits against
mother nature. And she's got the

775
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:43,359
fish and you went to find them, and she's tried to hide him as

776
01:15:43,359 --> 01:15:45,359
best you can, and you've got
to try and as best as you can

777
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:51,880
to try and find them and get
them backing with their nature. So there's

778
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:59,039
no greater sense of satisfaction and going
out harvesting a good cotch and coming back

779
01:15:59,159 --> 01:16:03,960
and and seeing your cuts in the
fish market. It's a sense of achievement

780
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:12,119
every trip. And it's it's almost
I wouldn't say as far as it is

781
01:16:12,279 --> 01:16:17,039
a drug, but it's an adrenaline
there's that every trip is the same.

782
01:16:17,359 --> 01:16:21,760
If you get a big hall of
fish, good hall of fish, it's

783
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:26,000
a boys, there's adrenaline in you. You're excited, you shot again,

784
01:16:26,039 --> 01:16:28,159
you try again. It's the same
at the end of our trip. If

785
01:16:28,159 --> 01:16:33,279
you come on with a good trip
years and it's addictive. It's very addictive.

786
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:39,680
As for hunter gatherers. Yet I
see as this hunters, but also

787
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:45,319
see its like you ask my about
the future. We are the guardians of

788
01:16:45,319 --> 01:16:47,840
the sea, and I'll be fishing
for forty years, but we'll be fishing

789
01:16:48,239 --> 01:16:51,720
for four hundred years after I'm finished. So we're trying to look after the

790
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:55,880
stocks, not just for this year
or next year, but for decades to

791
01:16:55,960 --> 01:17:01,920
come. And that's why I think
you should be listening to more. Alan

792
01:17:02,079 --> 01:17:08,600
be good when we talk about sustainability, well, I agree, yeah,

793
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:13,680
we should be listening to more.
When the fleet was bigger, I can

794
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:16,680
park at the civities neededs when you
need a lot of boats, and you'd

795
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,760
always had the boats. It was
at the top of the tree or the

796
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:24,239
snot bars before and that was the
guys that had the that hid it in

797
01:17:24,359 --> 01:17:26,840
them. You might have had a
guy it was just skipper and he fished

798
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,760
away. But if you didn't hear
the start a bitter bite or that bit

799
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:35,800
of instinct. Yeah, yeah,
that was the difference between a fisherman and

800
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:42,199
a snot ban but makes sense for
what's stop by fisherman, A top fisherman

801
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:48,479
that trade a scale that obviously as
an element of scale help and knowledge.

802
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:53,520
But you need a bit of luck, you need a better I never give

803
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:59,920
up attitude again, Yeah, yeah, the one the one thing that I

804
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:04,039
unless I'm wrong, I don't think
I did. And I'm pleased I didn't

805
01:18:04,159 --> 01:18:09,279
hear the word I didn't hear from
you, which is just don't you go

806
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:16,079
by myself with fishermen luck. I
don't believe there's such a thing as luck.

807
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:19,680
And if there is, you make
your You make your own luck.

808
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:26,319
It's not it's not it's not luck. It's hard work and lots of thought

809
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,680
and study. You need, you
need to have a slight element of lout

810
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:31,680
gim there is a element a lot
because some guys are quite unlucky. Can

811
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:35,039
we break doing some things like that? Can? I just generally general?

812
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:43,520
Can somebody will be by a boat
and years ago somebody here boat and it's

813
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:46,760
it's work perfect for them and somebody
else came along and boy and it's problems

814
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,279
and can be it's just lock up
with it. There is an element a

815
01:18:51,359 --> 01:18:54,640
lock but no, you're right,
You're right, there is. It's a

816
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,920
lot is do to knowledge and scale
and everything. But you know, I

817
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:02,279
think you need to be a lot. If I was a Scottish fisherman or

818
01:19:02,319 --> 01:19:10,840
a UK fishermen fishing in the Babiscuy
with static gear with girlnets or lonelines,

819
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:15,119
and did I think my business would
last very long? If I was fishing

820
01:19:15,119 --> 01:19:24,760
alongside European fishermen with mobile gear with
local guys. If you fishing alongside local

821
01:19:25,159 --> 01:19:28,800
French or Spanish mobile boats, if
there was a fisher area, that is

822
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:32,560
hypothetically my business would in the last
two minutes. I'd be bankrupt in no

823
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:36,640
time. That guys, the Spanish
in the in the French are so militant

824
01:19:38,199 --> 01:19:42,960
they would just tow through your gear
and that be you finished. We seem

825
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:49,000
to take a softer option in the
west of Shetland and got the Scottish fisherman

826
01:19:49,039 --> 01:19:56,199
Hanadin that but as well as that
Alan you could add into that. You

827
01:19:56,279 --> 01:20:00,640
would within your life for your rules, spare your life. You wouldn't go

828
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:04,960
in and land in one of their
ports, or you under their noses,

829
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:12,960
because they would regularly they would be, they would get and they would get

830
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:18,359
away with it. They would either
damage your fish, spoil your landing,

831
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:23,680
or or block your lord, and
that would be it. Do you do

832
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:27,319
it once? And that it would
be it. Yet that these guys have

833
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:30,399
came up, came to Okay,
they've done it for years. I'm saying

834
01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:33,399
the Hannah done it for years and
historically that's what. But that just gets

835
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:36,920
more and more of them, and
they're becoming a bigger, bigger problem.

836
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:44,199
And I just feel that we are
being we're being too soft. But what

837
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,640
did I get the back up?
And if I'm sure the likes of the

838
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:50,880
Spanish for French, well you see
it this week with the with the French

839
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:58,000
farmers and Paris and they're putting hay
bales into into roads and things like that.

840
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:01,720
You see French policemen there. I
mean, they're just allowed to do

841
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,239
it. And that's that's that's the
way their culture is. Whereas we as

842
01:21:05,279 --> 01:21:08,880
soon as we would step out of
line, it would be us that would

843
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:13,960
be punished and the perpetry and be
seen as victim. And then it's the

844
01:21:14,039 --> 01:21:19,319
way I see it is if hypothetically, if a Scottish fishing boat or UK

845
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:24,600
fishing boat went to the beer Biscuit
to fish the long lines our girl nets,

846
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:30,680
and there was a Spanish, a
French fleet and mobile trawlers there and

847
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:33,439
we were trying to encroach in their
area. They were just too our gear

848
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:39,319
away. We wouldn't get a start. Yet they're coming up to our area

849
01:21:40,399 --> 01:21:45,319
and shooting their long lines our gill
nets and expecting us to steep could clear

850
01:21:45,399 --> 01:21:48,479
them, and are blogging off mass
of areas I see basically shutting us out

851
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:55,520
the areas that we've fished for generations. They're going about the historic right to

852
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,279
be there. Well, we've got
historic right to be there. It's UK

853
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:08,520
Waters's Yet I just feel like I
threw our days on barking us up enough

854
01:22:09,079 --> 01:22:13,760
are helping us to find a solution
to the problem, and it's just getting

855
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:20,039
washed and wash every year. And
it's a detrimental effect of the stocks.

856
01:22:20,079 --> 01:22:26,319
Definitely in a detrimental effect of stocks
that the fish for the type of fish

857
01:22:26,359 --> 01:22:29,319
that they are catching. You're saying
that, I would say you're seeing a

858
01:22:29,399 --> 01:22:32,039
downward trend and cut trets for for
the trawler now, for the trawlers now,

859
01:22:33,119 --> 01:22:36,640
And like I said earlier, even
even with them that was eight of

860
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:43,600
them landed in scrubs the last week
and the hidden enough fishes fall two lorries

861
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:46,600
a fish for eight boats, so
they didn't bother going back to see for

862
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:50,279
a week. It's the first time
I've ever heard of that, I've ever

863
01:22:50,399 --> 01:22:54,479
saying it. So obviously they're finding
it difficult now to find fish in the

864
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:58,079
traditional places that they are going,
So to me, that's a sign.

865
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:01,840
That's an early sign, early war
man saying that things are starting to kind

866
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:09,840
of hit a critical point for them
as well. I mean, eight boats

867
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:13,640
and only two trucks, and it's
just it's unbelievable, really, isn't it.

868
01:23:15,319 --> 01:23:20,119
I didn't realize, ignorant as it
maybe sound. I didn't realize until

869
01:23:20,159 --> 01:23:28,239
you mentioned it earlier that I actually
thought the reason they were staying ashore was

870
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:31,479
to keep out the bad weather.
But it's actually from it you said there.

871
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:35,920
The reason they kept the stay ashore
is because there was nothing. There

872
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:42,199
was no fish to go back.
But one of the one of the known

873
01:23:42,359 --> 01:23:45,920
UK boats, one of the skippers
are very good English and he was talking

874
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,680
to the harbor employees, and that's
what he said, this is the one

875
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:53,000
going to back out because of fishing
was so bad. But then it's got

876
01:23:53,079 --> 01:23:58,760
no going effect of us as well. I mean that it's they'll they'll probably

877
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:01,520
just go to another area, be
an area that the and I used before

878
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:09,359
or tried before, and they'll just
plaster it as well and just finish it

879
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:14,319
as well. Areas need to get
arrest. You've got to fish the same

880
01:24:14,399 --> 01:24:16,840
area weekend, we could expect to
get the same yield, the same returnal

881
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,399
harvest, the same amount of fish. Areas need to get arrest. They

882
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:26,359
need to they need to be left
alone for a while. That's the words

883
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:31,199
from somebody is that's responsible and thinking
of the future, But they obviously don't.

884
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:36,319
That doesn't concern them at all,
or doesn't It doesn't doesn't appear to

885
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:42,079
bother them though. It's just it's
not their own. It's not their own,

886
01:24:42,239 --> 01:24:45,920
so they probably don't feel they have
any interest in looking after it.

887
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:53,000
No, No, that's correct,
just move on somewhere else after the next

888
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:55,720
once they've cleaned the black the bit, they'll just move on to the next

889
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:00,800
area, right. I mean that
type of fleet it's the I used to

890
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:04,159
that that's the kind of method deficient
that they're done for for generations that they've

891
01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:09,279
cleaned it. They're going coastal waters
and then they've just moved They've just moved

892
01:25:09,319 --> 01:25:13,159
up the edge and they now they're
up and then ped it in our our

893
01:25:13,239 --> 01:25:19,199
area because univers used to see them
like west of Saint Kilda, in west

894
01:25:19,319 --> 01:25:23,159
bar Ahead and places like that.
You never ever see them there now because

895
01:25:23,159 --> 01:25:29,920
obviously there's nothing for the coach.
Yeah, but they've cleaned it for But

896
01:25:30,079 --> 01:25:32,760
that's it. That's right, My
goodness. I can remember when we were

897
01:25:33,239 --> 01:25:39,079
dealing with the Orkney boats Revo Jimmy
Baying and the Rivo. He often fished

898
01:25:39,119 --> 01:25:47,279
off a bar ahead. It was
a productive area. See, that's that's

899
01:25:48,119 --> 01:25:58,119
I don't think people are aware just
quite how sedious that is. I said

900
01:25:58,119 --> 01:26:01,319
at the very beginning, I said
that this is the biggest concern that I

901
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:08,159
see in the future. Hour industry
is just now is because in flux static

902
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:13,079
gear, gillnets and longline boats.
Yeah, you did, and the way

903
01:26:13,359 --> 01:26:16,920
I appreciate the way you put it, it wasn't you weren't linking it with

904
01:26:17,359 --> 01:26:24,199
your pay packet or your income,
or that it was the future of our

905
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:30,199
fish stocks in the industry. You
were concerned about personal No, No,

906
01:26:30,279 --> 01:26:33,720
I mean it's personal size a short
term. It's long term that you've got

907
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:44,199
to look at. Yeah, I
just don't feel they're looking it's now and

908
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:48,479
that's all they're interested in. The
thing is it just creates. It creates

909
01:26:48,560 --> 01:27:00,520
an area like a squeeze, an
aerial squeeze because the trollers we can't get

910
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:02,159
fished for. We want to fish, so we are pushed sent a tighter

911
01:27:02,159 --> 01:27:06,640
and tighter area to fish and then
of course it gets so it's got no

912
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:12,159
coin effect. It's got a no
coin effect that the trailers are fishing in

913
01:27:12,159 --> 01:27:17,119
an area, fishing areas constantly like
a Shetland basins. It's never getting arrest

914
01:27:17,199 --> 01:27:20,760
because we kind of spread our wings. We kind of get where I want

915
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,800
to go because the static boats and
then then and then they move in and

916
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:30,479
they just it's just a special squeeze
which is getting constantly wash and it's it's

917
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:35,119
not good for stocks with stocks kind
of the kind of sustain the amount of

918
01:27:35,359 --> 01:27:43,680
effort on them. Yeah, Beggar's
belief. It's shocking that it don I

919
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:46,159
don't think marine Scotland. I don't
think the board them at sea. I

920
01:27:46,199 --> 01:27:49,800
don't think they monitor them as sure. I didn't think they've got the appetite

921
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,439
for it. Obnestly didn't think that. It doesn't appear they've got the appetite

922
01:27:53,479 --> 01:28:00,680
for it. I was at rock
all Lost July August, some summer anyway,

923
01:28:00,159 --> 01:28:04,520
that was myself in another Scottish boat, the Aquarius was on the bank

924
01:28:05,159 --> 01:28:12,479
and there was one Spanish angle Spanish, I think she should get registered for

925
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:18,359
red astaurants. He was there and
the fisher production vessel came out. He

926
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:24,399
boarded us, and they boarded the
Aquarius and even spoke the Spaniard. Three

927
01:28:24,439 --> 01:28:27,960
boats in the area and that that
one day he boarded two Scottish boats and

928
01:28:28,039 --> 01:28:33,159
I even spoke the Spanish boat then
went away back east. Well, well

929
01:28:34,119 --> 01:28:44,039
crazy, that's that's just disgusting.
That's just it's just not that's that's not

930
01:28:44,199 --> 01:28:49,560
how it should And if you say
it's Angelo, but what we call a

931
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:56,479
flag in convenient, yes, well
that's pretty's registered so that they should be

932
01:28:56,560 --> 01:29:02,720
born to die. But they know
it's it's it's a paper exercise the ownership

933
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:09,239
of the boats. It's no new
k but No, that was that was

934
01:29:09,359 --> 01:29:13,079
last last I think it was Dune
July last year. Anyway, in summer

935
01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:16,760
months it was there wasn't it was
only three boats were showing up in the

936
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:20,439
I S and the bark just it
was ned just a three of us and

937
01:29:21,399 --> 01:29:28,560
he the protection vessel. Didn't the
bo that with the Spanish boat. Yeah,

938
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,600
it's just not good enough. And
yet when you when you if,

939
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:38,720
when you question that, it's the
boardings. The boardings are similar to the

940
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:45,399
were and it's just the case,
definitely the case. Yeah, which one

941
01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:54,760
was that or the Spanish boat it
was Dan's or the you asked when I

942
01:29:54,800 --> 01:30:00,239
think it was a dura dura,
I think it was a dura. Well,

943
01:30:00,319 --> 01:30:08,560
well, it's disheartening, very it's
disheartening, and it must be all.

944
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:13,199
I mean, it's disheartening for me
heeding that. But I mean you're

945
01:30:13,279 --> 01:30:16,560
in the cool face, your is
out there, You're I mean to live

946
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:23,800
with it and work with it and
accepted it. You just got accepted.

947
01:30:24,039 --> 01:30:27,840
That's the kind of Well, that's
the thing. I think we have to

948
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:33,960
find ways getting it getting it fixed, because we shouldn't have We shouldn't.

949
01:30:34,159 --> 01:30:40,600
It's not right, so we shouldn't
accept it we have. I would say,

950
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:45,600
maybe you have to feel you accepted, but but that's wrong because then

951
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:53,159
that's that's almost as bad as them, the fact that, yeah, oh

952
01:30:53,239 --> 01:30:59,000
it's total, that it's total,
it's completely that. I would just like

953
01:30:59,119 --> 01:31:03,359
to thank you so which I've really
enjoyed that and it's been fascinating just talking

954
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:11,000
to and obviously know you well,
but just the way you think and when

955
01:31:11,039 --> 01:31:15,279
you're out there. I just think
it's brilliant. And I hope that with

956
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:23,640
the generations to come, I hope
that mindset stays with the future fishermen.

957
01:31:24,039 --> 01:31:28,640
I think I think the guys have
got that mindset. I think I think

958
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:31,439
you need it. I think you
need to hear that mindset now to be

959
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:39,399
successful. Thank you for listening to
this episode. If you liked it,

960
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:44,279
hit subscribe, share it with a
friend, or leave a five star review,

961
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,560
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