1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,799 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,480 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,240 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,440 We'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:35,560 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey guess what, it's 6 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,000 dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, an amateur cable We just had a 7 00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:46,000 conversation before SERGEI came online about phishing, and because I was watching the show 8 00:00:46,039 --> 00:00:50,240 called Bizarre Foods America with Andrew Zimmern. It's an old show, right, 9 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,920 it's been on many years, but I love watching reruns of things that are 10 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,560 interesting. And he was in Vancouver. Yeah, yeah, and he goes 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,280 to tojo like the guy who invented the californiyear old and I got you there, 12 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:04,799 right, yes you did? Yeah, And Aerosmith walked in right yeah, 13 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,840 right while we were there. That's right, you did that over the 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,599 shoulder shot. Yeah. And my friend said, hey, who's that guy 15 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:17,680 talking to my aunt? Edna? Steven Tyler. Steven Tyler has aged interestingly 16 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:26,120 dude looks like a grandma. Now. Anyway, that was a fun conversation, 17 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:29,719 but that's not what we're here for. Let's get into better no framework 18 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:38,599 and start this thing. All right, man, what do you got? 19 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:45,439 All right? I found this list, a curated list of awesome open source 20 00:01:45,719 --> 00:01:51,920 projects on the web, and it's called awesome oss. It's a GitHub repo 21 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,079 and it's at Serene Blue. And I love these curated lists, and man, 22 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,640 I wish we had these more in every category of life, like music 23 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:05,519 for example. You know, used to have an uncle who had a record 24 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,080 collection who you could just go to and say, hey, what's really cool 25 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:13,360 right now? And they would say I love this yeah, and you listen 26 00:02:13,439 --> 00:02:17,840 to it and it's great. So developer tools is just one of the categories 27 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:23,000 in here. But the categories are there's only a few audio editors, audio 28 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:29,800 players, documents, developer tools, email foundations, FTP clients, games, 29 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:35,599 graphics, multimedia, networking, OS distributions, other password managers, payments, 30 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,919 social text editors, video software, web browsers. I went looking in you 31 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:44,039 know, non developer tool stuff, sure, and there's so many cool projects 32 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,039 that I had no idea. The curation he's done here where he's actually found 33 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,319 the links for how you donate as well as how you contribute, Like, 34 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:53,879 this is a ton of work to make this list. A lot of work. 35 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,560 Yeah, yeah, no, I really appreciate that. Yeah. I 36 00:02:58,599 --> 00:03:01,159 didn't see anything where you could donate to him. No, no, not 37 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:04,560 it all. But I think that's what this is about. I mean, 38 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:06,960 in the end, I mean, they're still maintaining it. But this is 39 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,240 a properly configured open source project too, right. I appreciate that it has 40 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:16,159 an MIT license. That's great. It's kind of funny. But yeah, 41 00:03:16,199 --> 00:03:21,240 they to do the work of saying here's the project, here's the source cover 42 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,520 repositor. If you want to contribute code, here's how they take donations, 43 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,560 if you want to contribute money. It's really awesome, that's really great. 44 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:31,960 Yeah, so hats off to Serene Blue for curating that list. Who's talking 45 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,919 to us? Richard grabbed a comment off of show eighteen eighty, which was 46 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,680 just a couple of weeks ago, right, yeah, right, which is 47 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:42,800 why we're here actually, because when we were recording that show with Jimmy Bogart 48 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,000 about migrating to dot net eight he called out hang fire. Yeah, and 49 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,159 and right away I made a notice. I'm going to go look up what 50 00:03:50,199 --> 00:03:53,719 hangfires. I hadn't heard about it before, but one of our long time 51 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:55,840 listeners, Dave Ackkroyd, also immediately commented on that show. He said, 52 00:03:55,879 --> 00:04:00,240 this is a great episode. I'll be recommending my colleagues listen, though they 53 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,840 should be listening to all of them anyway. Uh, and I'm not. 54 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:04,520 That's not an editorial. I mean, that's what Dave said. That's why 55 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,840 we love Dave. I had my ears prick up the moment when Jimmy mentioned 56 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:13,199 hang fire, as that is a service I work with a lot on my 57 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,360 current job. I would love to hear from them, especially as I'm currently 58 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:19,759 using it on dot Net framework and looking to the dot Net Core. Would 59 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:25,160 open up some other hosting options besides an EC two instance running on Windows server 60 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,600 or running Windows Server on EC two instance. That sounds right. I like 61 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:33,680 that better. My ideal world would have no i as, and so knowing 62 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,279 some more around options for platform as of service would be great to hear. 63 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,560 Sorry, Dave, Yeah, we can't help you. No, Nope, 64 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,160 not that they could do there. We're not going to go there, not 65 00:04:44,199 --> 00:04:49,360 gonna do it and come, you know. Fortunately, in my initial research, 66 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:54,240 and seeing the encouragement from David so Forth, I reached out to Sergey, 67 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,800 who was very responsive to us, and so here we are just a 68 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,639 few weeks later. Very cool. I know you got a copy of us 69 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,920 iccode by already. I think you got all the things one way or the 70 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,120 other. But pick me later and we'll chat. Thanks so much for your 71 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,120 comment and a copy of music, cob By. It's on its way to 72 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,519 you. And if you'd like a copy of musicobe I write a comment on 73 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:15,800 the website at Donna at rocks dot com or on the social media's like Facebook, 74 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,120 publish every show there, and if you comment there and are reading the 75 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,639 show, we'll send you copy of music kobay and you can follow us on 76 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,680 Twitter if you want, or x or whatever they call it. I'm at 77 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,160 Carl Franklin, he's at Rich Campbell, but the cool kids are hanging out. 78 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:30,439 I'm Masterson. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech cub dot social, and 79 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,279 I'm Rich Campbell at Macedon dot social. Send us a tuote. We will 80 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,079 definitely read it. That's all we're committing to. Yeah, that's all. 81 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,639 Quietly, we might make fun of it, yeah, but publicly we always 82 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,279 say nice things. We're nice guys, at least on a podcast. We 83 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:49,079 are. Yeah, that's right, we play nice guys on a podcast. 84 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:56,639 Okay, close enough, let's bring on. Odie Knockoff is a proud husband 85 00:05:56,639 --> 00:06:00,319 and father of two kids, currently living in Thailand. He's been in offerare 86 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:04,279 development for more than fifteen years, looking to find the exact reason why concurrent 87 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:11,079 parallel distributed programming is so difficult. I hope he's hearing it enlighten us. 88 00:06:11,079 --> 00:06:14,560 I know he will. Welcome serge. Hi, everyone, how are you 89 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:18,439 doing? Thank you for the invitation. I'm doing fine, but my bed 90 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,720 is tired. Yeah. Yeah, this is a very much around the world 91 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,240 recording. You're in Thailand, I'm in BC Carls, Connecticut. Like we're 92 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,759 covering all the time zones. Yep. This is amazing that we can all 93 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,959 be here together on riverside. But let's talk about hang fire now. I'm 94 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,000 just going to give the quick you know, read what the website says. 95 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,399 It's very easy to understand. An easy way to perform background processing in dot 96 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,800 net and dot net core applications. No Windows service or separate process required, 97 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:57,519 backed by persistent storage, open and free for commercial use. Wow, legit, 98 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,600 that's and that's quite an undertaking. My friend and colleague Brian McKay, 99 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,759 when I told him we were interviewing you, said, holy crap. We 100 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,360 used to use hang fireback in the dot net framework days and he had no 101 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:15,199 idea that you could run it encore. Oh yes you can. So it 102 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:19,839 centers around this idea of jobs, and you have just right on the homepage, 103 00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:24,519 you know, examples of what the different kinds of jobs are, fire 104 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:30,920 and forget, delayed jobs executed only once, but not immediately after a certain 105 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:35,399 time interval, recurring jobs like on the specified Crawn schedule. So wow, 106 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:42,360 that's great. Continuations which are executed when its parent job has been finished. 107 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,519 And then the pro version has this thing about batches. We'll get into that 108 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:50,759 a little bit later. But man, this looks great and so necessary and 109 00:07:50,839 --> 00:07:58,480 so easy. Thank you. How long you been doing this now more than 110 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,959 ten years already, Guinness. It will be eleven birthday this year in August, 111 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:11,959 as I remember, I started it in twenty thirteen. First commit it 112 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,319 was in another life. What was your inspiration? I mean, did you 113 00:08:16,399 --> 00:08:18,959 have like a problem that you said, you know, I need something like 114 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:26,160 this so you wrote it for yourself or well that My problem was I found 115 00:08:26,199 --> 00:08:35,480 myself implemented the same beats from project to project on my jobs. So I 116 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:43,279 waited for a long time that another one more experienced developer implement these. I 117 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:50,320 was waiting for about four years, but I saw almost nothing. Most project 118 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:56,120 or dead because the period, and after a year or two it became up 119 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,000 torment. So you have that healthy instinct of this is such a good idea, 120 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,200 somebody else must have already done this. Yes, yes, yes, 121 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:09,799 I was looking on other platforms like ururban rails, like Python. I saw 122 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:16,480 Sidekik, Cillary and other interesting projects, and I was dreaming that someone will 123 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:24,120 implement this because I really tired implementing the same and the same on dark Night 124 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,879 platform. Yeah so you I mean you mentioned Celery and that's built for a 125 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,960 what platform is that for? It's Python. It's a Python, That's what 126 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,679 I was thinking. Do you see that as an inspiration? Like that's just 127 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:46,080 a give me one of those that please, just just just top level. 128 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:52,519 I didn't go into the details. I was looking at API was dreaming, 129 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,399 right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just hoping that you know, 130 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,480 you don't want to have to happily use somebody else's if you could have. 131 00:10:01,799 --> 00:10:07,519 Yes, yes, sure, because the ground jobs today projects are more complex 132 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:11,840 than in the early days of the internet, and almost every project I need 133 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:18,399 some kind of ground processing. I was surprised to see that there is no 134 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:24,799 movement in the network. I saw some projects. That's what that already as 135 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:31,639 I already mentioned, because it's difficult to be to build a sustainable open source 136 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:39,120 projects. So that's but I think that's another story. No, but, 137 00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:43,720 and I when it's super relevant on the show that you know how you built 138 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,600 this out of your own need, but you've got a huge raft of contributors 139 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,200 too, so obviously with a need by other folks that they've helped you out 140 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,440 or been a part of the process. Yeah, sure, because contributors published 141 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,919 a huge number of things. Because sometimes you don't have time to fix some 142 00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:11,519 rare features or very rare use cases, and contributors make a huge contributions help 143 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,960 a lot you polish some advancity use cases. I noticed that you have an 144 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:22,720 architectural diagram which is very helpful, but it has like the user and then 145 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:30,440 the hang fired scheduler and then a server. But as you mentioned in the 146 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,799 very first paragraph on your website. You don't have to go out of process. 147 00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:39,480 This is just a you know, a logical server, if you will, 148 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,720 right, logical server. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But you can 149 00:11:43,799 --> 00:11:46,840 move it out of process if you want to, right. Yes. You 150 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:52,720 can start in the same process to keep things simple and later move it out 151 00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:58,440 to another process or another server when needed. And the main things is that 152 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,720 you're the top will not be complicated when you do this because in both casse, 153 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:09,240 if you perform the process in the same process and in another process you're 154 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:15,480 using the same configuration, you just plug in the storage and let hunfar do 155 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,559 right. So you don't need any kind of inter process communication because it's all 156 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,240 persisting in a database. Yeah. Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah. 157 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,919 And by database it looks like you mean just about anything the process I suspect 158 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,080 I could probably drop the state information into a file and you could pick it 159 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,600 back up and keep going. Not quite, because official is supported a skill 160 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:43,559 server and already and in memory for simplified development, et cetera. But there 161 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:50,399 are a lot of community by the storages that are implemented by other people, 162 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:58,480 other contributors, so I don't think it's easy to use file lists but it 163 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:05,759 can be at least implemented. Sure. So when I was talking to Brian 164 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:11,240 McKay, he wanted to know when is a good time to use hang Fire 165 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:18,720 versus some sort of cloud service you know, Azure Functions or service Bus, 166 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,799 because he says, we use that pattern a lot. I think it depends 167 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:30,960 on architecture because there are companies that invest heavily in cloud infrastructure and I don't 168 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,000 think I don't think there is need to move to Fire or other on promise 169 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:41,879 things for them, but it is still possible. Nowadays, company looks for 170 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:48,000 ways to keep it possible to move to other vendors. Right. Platform independence, 171 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,759 yes, yes, yes, And it's difficult if you invest a lot 172 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:58,559 of time, a lot of development into one concrete platform to move switch to 173 00:14:00,159 --> 00:14:05,879 another one. So if a company wants to invest more in a platform independence, 174 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:13,559 then it's a great opportunity to use Fire. I imagine that when it 175 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:20,559 comes to scaling, right, your database might be the the you know, 176 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,600 the point at which you want to put your resources into. You know, 177 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,919 it might be the bottleneck. Can you use just standard caching? Is that 178 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,399 going to screw up the whole process? If we I mean, I mean 179 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,039 it's really true. It's really about writing to the database. But there's obviously 180 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:43,399 your services in the background are reading that database. And if you cash, 181 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:48,200 is there a possibility that something will be missed? How do you feel about 182 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:56,000 that. It's possible to use different databases for applications, data and for and 183 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,480 far and fire has a right heavy workloads, so it's difficult to catch anything 184 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:09,000 there because everything is constantly changed, like the ground jobs that move from one 185 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:15,159 state to another. So whattlelike is an interesting problem and I'm afraid there is 186 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:22,320 no solution of them charging. Yeah. Yeah, you can use multiple storages 187 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:28,559 incanfi and create the ground jobs in one or another storage. So on the 188 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,639 server aspect, you know, the thing that reads the database in fires off 189 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:41,279 the jobs and all that stuff is there in memory. Cash with notification that 190 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:46,240 the database has changed for you, so that you're not constantly polling the database. 191 00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:48,840 How does that work? It depends on the storage because, for example, 192 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:56,320 Alreadius has blocking commands. But actually that's why people love radis. Yeah 193 00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,600 yeah, but actually the most popular client for red this is stach exchange rate 194 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:08,759 doesn't support blocking comments. So this is a kind of pops up magic punitions. 195 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:15,720 And subscribe. I'm talking about a squall server. It has some motification 196 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:21,600 about Historically it's complicated, right, you have to do triggers and things, 197 00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:27,919 right, dependency. I even forgot the name of it. There. Once 198 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,200 upon a time seql server had notification services. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 199 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:37,240 yeah, yeah yeah. And to simplify things, I will I was trying 200 00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:44,480 to discover a more or less efficient way of pulling and let's versions. It 201 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:51,399 has central bags, but it works, it works well practically, so very 202 00:16:51,399 --> 00:16:53,440 good. Yeah. And I noticed that you start with sql server two thousand 203 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,960 and eight R two. It's like the base model, and that's the original 204 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,080 version for notification services, as I recall. Isn't that funny? Yeah, 205 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:07,720 but they require additional loanments, additional database configuration, and right in the early 206 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:15,319 days they didn't work well. Memory leaks are possible because I remember, yeah 207 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,720 I recall living in the DBA land at that time, and we were usually 208 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:25,079 pretty hesitant to turn notification services on. So to have a dev come out 209 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:26,559 and say, hey, we really want to do this, can you can 210 00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:32,680 we have notification services like we would push back, It's like that's another thing 211 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,640 we need to monitor. It's a bit cranky so we're going to need some 212 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,240 restart mechanisms like all of that kind. I remember in the old days, 213 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,440 and I can't remember exactly when, but it was probably before two thousand and 214 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:48,000 six that we used to do triggers. Fernando Guerrero taught me how to do 215 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:57,960 this, to write a trigger on insert that could notify your code somehow. 216 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:00,920 And I can't it's been so long, I can't remember, but I remember 217 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,640 actually showing this in a in a webinar, because as of SQL Server two 218 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,079 thousand and five, you could make a dot net call out of a store 219 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,279 procedure. Yeah, that's right, So you could have embedded in that on 220 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,000 insert trigger on an external call like at gRPC or something like that. You're 221 00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:22,680 you're interesting, fifteen years too early for GRP. No, but now you 222 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,799 could, right. I mean they didn't take the runtime out of SQL service. 223 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:29,319 No, No, it's still air. It's off by default, but 224 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,039 it's always been off by default. Yeah, people abuse it. You know, 225 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:37,640 you don't want to put an external call into an aggregate function. No, 226 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:45,480 bad, that would be bad, Serge. Were there any features that 227 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:48,759 you added that came from your customers or you know, people who are using 228 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,720 it I'm sure there were, But do you have any stories about that? 229 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,400 That's a great question, because thank you. The whole story of Ganphar is 230 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:04,920 everything is mixed together. Customer greary is my own thoughts. So it's I 231 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,599 don't know how to say it in English, so yeah, no, I 232 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:15,119 will really with everybody's input, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, everybody 233 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,759 was. I was involved. I've tried hard to understand customers, to understand 234 00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:26,039 developers, and implement things as simple as it possible, because because you know, 235 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:33,680 no one wants to spend time supporting difficult things. And what about crazy 236 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,559 ideas? Does anybody come up to you like a crazy idea that after about 237 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,839 minute thought you just said, no, what you talk? What's that stupid 238 00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:49,759 idea? I think the most craziest idea was my decision to add support of 239 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:57,480 both no Skill and Relational Skill databases in the early days. And no one 240 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:11,960 told me don't do this. Trial by hang fire. Yeah, because it's 241 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:18,279 really difficult to mix so different things in one a BI and to make them 242 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:26,359 work. Because even now, when I'm trying to document storage API, every 243 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:34,480 time, I understand I can do this right now because there there are so 244 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:41,960 many words missing, and there are a lot of concepts missing when you need 245 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:48,640 to make friendship between locks, transactions and other things. Yeah, are you 246 00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:52,079 using on the back end you go all the way down the threads or are 247 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:57,119 you trying to stick the tasks in a task parallel library in a sink away. 248 00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:03,200 That's that's another great question. Thanks. That's what I do, by 249 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:10,200 the way, And I started by using threads. Then I switched to tasks, 250 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:17,000 but on running task that are threats under the surface. But then I 251 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:26,279 even tried hard to build a synchronous API as synchronous processes asynchronous not a synchronous 252 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:33,000 process us. Yeah. Yeah, I'm still learning. I was learning. 253 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:45,039 I was learning English by writing documentation to him fire awesome. So I'm still 254 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,440 trying. You know, you're doing great. You're doing great. I'm thinking 255 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:52,079 back with it. Stephen Taboo said, this is like, listen, there's 256 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,839 only three people that really understand multi threaded programming, and two of them are 257 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:08,680 lying the other one. I used to teach multi threaded programming as a concept, 258 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,000 and what I did was I used Gary Kasparov actually as an example. 259 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:21,000 I said, Gary Kasparoff is playing chess in the park with those big stone 260 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,279 chess boards. You know, they are arranged in a circle like Stonehenge, 261 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,079 and he's got you know, twenty people. He's playing twenty games at once. 262 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,799 He plays, he makes a move, he goes to the next one. 263 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,640 He makes a move, and he goes to the next one. And 264 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,160 so that's how he can play twenty games at the same time, but just 265 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,160 make one move at a time. And that's kind of the idea of threads. 266 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,839 You know, down in the operating system that the OS gives attention to 267 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,640 one thread at a time and makes a certain number of moves, a certain 268 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,400 number of registers or whatever, makes a call, and then moves on to 269 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:59,519 the next one. So it's kind of fortuitous that, you know, Gary 270 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:04,480 casper off Man, he's a multi threaded man. Yeah, he's a multi 271 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:11,119 threaded man, both inside and outside his brain. Yeah, yeah, I 272 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,599 think we should take a break for just a moment. Yeah, let's do 273 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:22,559 that. We'll be right back after these important messages and we're back. You're 274 00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:26,720 listening to dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, and we're talking with Sergei 275 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:32,440 Odie Knockoff about hang fire. We were just talking about whether or not you 276 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:36,559 know, you started with threads then you went to tasks that use threads on 277 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,720 the back end, and tasks men all the way. That's what I say. 278 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,319 Yeah, life is better that way. I hope I never have to 279 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:51,519 use threads. How about locking mechanisms? Do you just use basic lock objects 280 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:55,160 or do use semaphores? Or how you know? What's your what's your? 281 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:02,680 Do your locking mechanism? We can't use a regular our logs or semaphos because 282 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,559 they work only inside the same process, right, Yeah, you're right, 283 00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:15,000 and in far since we can move process into another machine to use something else. 284 00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:22,359 There is an abstraction in storage API called distributed lock. This was one 285 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,400 of the most difficult points to make them work and to make them work realiably 286 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,759 because when talking about hand fire, we can expect unexpected shut down in every 287 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:40,799 line. So not only distributed locks should work well, but the whole storage 288 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:48,319 should work well, because we shouldn't leave abandoned logs because they should be eventually 289 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:55,799 released, and we should somehow mix them with transactions to make out right to 290 00:24:56,559 --> 00:25:00,880 succeed. And hand fire is prepared for expect to shut down every line, 291 00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:07,559 and it is really difficult to program with this in mind. It looks like 292 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:11,799 reddis supports, or you could do distributed locks in reddist and maybe even something 293 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:17,839 called zoo keeper. Have you looked at that? Zoo Keeper sounds complicated. 294 00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:23,960 This whole thing sounds complicated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's 295 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:33,400 why I'm trying to understand why it's so complicated. It's ready in near bio, 296 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:42,720 so infant far Distributed logs are tied with transactions because radis supports transactions in 297 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:52,200 a slightly different way than a relational databases, but they work anyway. So 298 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:59,960 I read that you have a retry circuit breaker, number of retry attemps, 299 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,640 you can customize your retry strategy, and then I wondered, hey, is 300 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:10,319 he using polly and I didn't see that you are, So you're doing your 301 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,519 own retri logic. I tried not to introduce a lot of dependencies into hand 302 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:22,400 fire because dependency eventually carted. Dependency help. Yeah, it is in the 303 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:30,039 dot net framework. You can create an HDDP client factory with strategies or policies 304 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,279 built in for retry. Is that what you're using? No, No, 305 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,279 you're doing your own. They're not so complicated or so. Yeah, but 306 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:45,200 you do allow the developer to specify and customize the retry strategy if it doesn't. 307 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:52,880 Yes, yea to some extent, because it depends on complexity, on 308 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,680 the number of fissures tries in hand. Fire not required to be difficult, 309 00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:03,519 not required to be complicated. So they just work. Yeah, I JW 310 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:14,359 technology, It just works. It works. I think we invented a new 311 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:25,039 slogan and fire good. I noticed in the pricing model and it includes licensing 312 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,960 that the open versions are LGPL three licenses. Can you talk about that choice? 313 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,440 Obviously this is probably decision you made ten years ago. Yes. First 314 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,079 of all, it was based on Sidekick, right, I asked Mike Perhams 315 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,640 my copy some things you told Yes. So there are a lot of things 316 00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:56,240 when you start your project. You want to concentrate on features, on first 317 00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:00,400 implementations, and there are a lot of everything else in your project, like 318 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:08,680 licensing, like side like some kind of marketing when you introduce your project, 319 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,000 and you can do all the things together so you can copy least important things 320 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:22,880 and concentrate on more important things for you. The same story was with lesser 321 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:30,799 GPL license. Some people who are asking to move to mt license on the 322 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:37,799 course of years, but don't know how to say this, I mean licensing 323 00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:42,839 works and I'm afraid of touching. Yeah. No, changing a license is 324 00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:49,000 very challenging. Yes, yes, because it can lead to a lot of 325 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:56,799 consequences you can predict and lesser. GPL works well for even for commercial use. 326 00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:06,440 It can people sometimes confuse it with a GP license and and scared that 327 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,599 they will need to open sources of their own applications. Well, and that's 328 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,599 the perception of all GPR licenses, just not understanding that LGPL isn't like that. 329 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:22,920 So I didn't know that. I just learned that just now I thought 330 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,519 anything GPL meant. I if I were to say, implement poly around you 331 00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:33,000 know, my retry policies, I would have to then submit that back to 332 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:41,200 the project. But it's difficult, it's complicated. It's complicated. Yes, 333 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,519 they allow commercial use and this phrase is highlighted on the site. Absolutely, 334 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:55,920 and LGPL is it exists for how many years? A long time? More 335 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:03,440 than twenty years? Yeah, yeah, so I think time. And actually 336 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:10,440 there are a lot of sites that describe the differences, yes, of each 337 00:30:10,599 --> 00:30:15,799 license nowadays. So sometimes I get these questions, I answer, I answer 338 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:22,000 them. People I can use it, so I can I wonder if you 339 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:27,119 don't have developers who have a limited amount of knowledge about over source licensing, 340 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,680 but they've been told by their company as long as it's MIT, it's fine, 341 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:34,039 and that's all they know and so, and that's why they're pushing on 342 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,240 you. It is like, could I have MIT please, because my boss 343 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,799 already told me that's okay. Yeah, these companies can buy a commercial license, 344 00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:45,000 and I thought that was so. As soon as I saw this page, 345 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:49,559 I thought this is brilliant. If you're not willing to learn the rules 346 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:53,240 of LGPL, you can pay to make it go away. Yeah yeah, 347 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:59,200 yeah, sure, so smart because if you learn the rules, I mean 348 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:02,880 all LGPR well and correct me if I'm wrong. Here says is if you 349 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:06,759 make improvements to this, if you make changes to it, contribute them back. 350 00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:11,720 Yeah. Yeah. One of the main points is LGBL license allows to 351 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:18,640 avoid competitions with ourselves. Right, Okay, when you have twenty fire like 352 00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:30,200 projects and you have to compute with your own code, right, it's strench 353 00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:36,200 for me. Okay. Can we talk about the batch idea that's in the 354 00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:41,440 pro version, and the provision is the paid version obviously, but batches and 355 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:47,480 batch continuations. I mean, anybody who's figured out and listening by now could 356 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,319 probably figure out what we're talking about here. A batches a group of background 357 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,839 jobs created automatically and considered as a single entity, and then a batch continuation 358 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,759 is fired when all the background jobs and a parent batch finish. Is there 359 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,720 also a way to know when each job in the batch has finished? Is 360 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:12,680 that just a regular continuation continue job with In other words, can you do 361 00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:15,279 both of these together? If I have a batch continuation that fires when all 362 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:21,359 of them happen, can I also know when individual jobs fire? You can 363 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,279 even create nested batches and nest that. That's crazy, you know, mister, 364 00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:32,759 and and and nested batch continuation that continue and other continuations. So yikes, 365 00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:39,839 it's possible to mix things and build a really complex work close. When 366 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,799 I hear you describe that, I'm like, wow, it's your foot. 367 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,920 You know what's scary out there? Somewhere there's somebody listening, say hey, 368 00:32:49,039 --> 00:33:00,440 I could configure this with YAML. In the early days of Fire development, 369 00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:07,680 I was talking a one developer who advised me to use XML for configure and 370 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:14,000 everything. But he was from Java world, so I understand him. It's 371 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:22,319 yeah, Jason, all the way. Yeah. Oh man, so no, 372 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:25,759 thank you. Any piece of software I've ever met that's run for ten 373 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,559 years has changed thessigence decisions along the way at some point that just that seems 374 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:35,279 inevitable, the same way you started in threads and then moved up to tasks, 375 00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:38,319 Like, there's got to be other cases where you just find I have 376 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:44,440 to change to do this. Well, now I'm trying to obstruct him far 377 00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:49,759 as much as possible, and the foundations like threads are not going anywhere, 378 00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:53,720 so yeah, be something you can count on. Even the netflatform itself changed 379 00:33:53,839 --> 00:34:00,599 a lot, but yeah, fire looks the same, so yeah, your 380 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:06,400 code's the same. What was there any difficulty for you switching implementations or having 381 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,880 implications for both the framework and for core. The most difficult things was the 382 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:20,079 early days of dot net core with lack of development tools support because everything was 383 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:28,559 changing. I mean, god coverage tools called analysis tools and unit testing continuous. 384 00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:32,360 Well, I mean you were through that era, coming right from twenty 385 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,199 thirteen of the early days of dot net core. Yeah, but even the 386 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,000 early days of how you do CICD pipelines like that's evolved a lot in the 387 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:44,599 past ten years, but the concepts are the same. Foundations are the same, 388 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,760 so I think I think not so much things changed added. A lot 389 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,400 of things added, but not changed. Core concepts stay the same. Before 390 00:34:54,440 --> 00:35:00,480 we before we get off is can you talk about job filters. That seems 391 00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:04,559 like a very powerful feature. Yeah, job builders, I think it's the 392 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,400 most powerful feature from Fire. Every extension, every paid package depends on them, 393 00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:15,679 and they allowed to extend can fire so you can implement new things, 394 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:23,519 more complex use cases, more integration with application without modifying hand far and without 395 00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:32,519 rebuilding it or without using your own version of FAR. Extensibility was one of 396 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:39,360 the main points during the initial initial development because it's not possible to build a 397 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:45,880 solution that will suit everyone, and you have to make some extension points that 398 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,400 are powerful enough to make everyone happy. Yeah, very cool. So it's 399 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,280 kind of like, and it says this right here, they're kind of like 400 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:58,320 they're similar to Aspen at NBC Action Filters. Yes, I've tried to copy 401 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:07,320 the concepts because their concept was already from sp developers. Is there any flavor 402 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:15,440 of dot net or implementation on a particular system of dot net where certain features 403 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:20,559 aren't available or the syntax is different or is it just so easy that it 404 00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:23,639 works everywhere on every flavor of dot net? Another good question. The most 405 00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:30,360 problematic one was the first version of dot net core. Oh yeah, nobody 406 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,960 uses that anymore. Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's still supported by him 407 00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:49,519 fire. Both users really appreciate that. Okay, you're welcome if you listen, 408 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,719 if you listen to us. Okay, but the net standard, a 409 00:36:53,800 --> 00:37:00,079 lot of features are resurrected. It's a big kudos for the net developers because 410 00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:08,280 they did great job for making it run and even feel the same on different 411 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:15,000 platforms. In your list of features to implement, is there anything so crazy 412 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:20,400 that you feel like you're going to have to take a week and go into 413 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:24,039 a cabin and do a Ted Kazinski somewhere and just you know, is there 414 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:30,760 anything really on your you know, on your implementation list that you're not looking 415 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,920 forward to. I think it relates again, different storage type support. It 416 00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:45,360 I dream implementing some kind of integration testing for that will work for different storages, 417 00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:51,039 so you don't have to write dedicated test suits for new storages, so 418 00:37:51,199 --> 00:37:58,280 you can just use it to test even new storages. Some kind of acceptance 419 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:02,480 tests. Yeah, have you ever considered taking the database out of the picture, 420 00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:07,920 except for maybe something to persist on the server, but you know, 421 00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:12,639 using a communication network like g r p C or something to go directly to 422 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,320 the server thing, and then the server can just like keep a keep a 423 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:22,840 local cache of that in case you know, it has to reset or reboot 424 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:30,760 or something. Moreover, there are interesting projects available on GitHub like rocks dB. 425 00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:37,159 How do you spell that, rocks dB, Rocks database, Rocks database, 426 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,480 Rocks, rocks r O c k S. Yeah, yeah, like 427 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:51,960 rocks but rocks I see rocks D. Caveman used to use these for for 428 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:57,320 keeping track of things. It's it's an embedable database. You can add it 429 00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:05,119 to your own application. So you can indeed build a gRPC protocol and use 430 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:12,360 it in another high performance Okay, so in that case you would have you'd 431 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:19,880 have to write an abstraction over the client and instead of hooking directly into the 432 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,199 server process or whatever it is, the server, you would put a little 433 00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:30,119 messaging between that and then you would run the client and server, you know, 434 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:36,000 logical server together wherever you're implementing that, I kind of get it. 435 00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:40,760 Yeah, So at the bottom line here is it's wicked extensible. I mean, 436 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,079 you've got the source for crying out loud. You're a programmer, figure 437 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:52,800 it out. Not you, sir, I'm talking about the listener for using 438 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,760 hang fire. You're a developer. That's what they pay you for. Okay, 439 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:07,559 Okay, thirty years and I implement everything but no support regress for thirty 440 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:13,639 years and everything will be done. So what's next for you? What are 441 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:15,840 you going to be doing right after you get off this call besides going to 442 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:25,639 bed. We're going to hear tomorrow because one of the most difficult things for 443 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:32,159 today was to make my children sleep. Uh huh yeah, I succeeded ten 444 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:38,800 minutes before our show. Oh great, well, well done. Yeah, 445 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,960 how do you get two and five? Yes? Okay, chaos monkeys, 446 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:50,440 chaos monkeys? Yeah, all right, Well, enjoy the wonderful foods and 447 00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:54,119 smells of Thailand and we wish you success with hang fire, and thanks for 448 00:40:54,199 --> 00:41:00,639 talking to us. Thank you for the invitation and for the talk speaker. 449 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,719 You good questions, great, thanks, thank you, and we'll talk to 450 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:30,159 you next time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you 451 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,559 by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video 452 00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:39,559 and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course 453 00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:45,239 in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 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