Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and
we have another great one for you this evening. Let's see, well,
I consider this place to go if you want to escape reality, not really
reality, but I guess we'll say escape the news at least for a little
while here. Well tonight, first of all, we have a guest from
His name is Jack from Canada, and he posted his childhood UFO story on
my website. And I should mention that I have an anonymous form there on
podcast ufo dot com then anyone can fill out and if they want to remain
anonymous. Actually he reached out to me, so he didn't remain anonymous in
particular. But after I read his story, I said, you know,
this is really a good enough story. I actually want to hear him talk
about it. So I'm bringing him on for the first a few minutes.
Well, he's going to talk about his sighting. Then after that we have
after Jacques, we have our main guest, David Halipern, and he was
on this show a while ago, quite a few years ago, I think,
and he was back in nineteen sixties a teenage UFO investigator. He later
became a Professor of Religious Studies. His specialty religious Traditions of Heavenly Assent,
and he was at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And when
he retired he started writing, and back in twenty eleven he wrote Journal of
a UFO Investigator and now he's back to talk about his latest book, Intimate
Alien, The Hidden Story of the UFO. Well, I am grateful for
all of you who support the show, and I couldn't do that with I
couldn't do this without you, actually, and we're over at Patreon and that
link is on our website podcast UFO dot Com and our blog this week by
Charles lear Is called when UFOs were sue coupe volunteire and that has to do
that was my poor attempt at French. This has to do with early UFO
reports in American at France, and without further ado, I'm bringing on Shock.
Welcome to the show. Jacques, Hi, how are you doing?
Martin doing well? Thank you and thanks so much for posting. Now you're
you're in Canada and U can you just go ahead and I want to hear
your story, the one you wrote just from your own words, and how
old were you and all that and where was it, Where were you located?
Well, I was about tween seventy five and seventy eight seventy nine,
so I was probably about six seven UM, so a long time ago,
but it's something that I've never forgotten. Northern somewhat northern Ontario here in Canada,
just in the area of North Bay, and we I grew up in
a kind of rural property. We had a great spot you would see moose,
deer, bear, It was all over us and took place. It's
probably late August, and I remember because it was really really warm and we
didn't have air conditioning. All our windows were open. It was around six
thirty in the evening, and we had somewhat of a little tradition. After
supper, we'd sit in the living room and watch a show. It might
have been mash or something, but so we were all sitting in the living
room and my father was an avid hunter, and he was one of these
people that really couldn't sit still too much. He'd always kind of he'd be
looking outside. He'd be looking in the windows outside and looking for wildlife,
because there's always wildlife. And often when we were sitting around watching a show,
my dad would pipe up and say, hey, guys, look,
and we'd all get up and took a peek. And sometimes there was a
bear, sometimes deer, and once in a while some moose. So it
wasn't it was common for him to pipe up, and he'd watched the show,
but he wasn't, you know, he wasn't super concentrated on it.
He'd be looking at his side. And this one time he says, oh,
my god, what is that something of that effect, and the way
he said it, it was different than you know, when it was a
moose or a deer. And I remember jumping up and running to the picture
window. And it was a small house, so we were in the living
room and right next my dad was sitting in his chair in the corner,
and the picture window was to his right, and we were in front of
him. So we ran up and there was my mother and my brother and
I and I ran to the window, oh, looking scanning the grounds for
a deer or a bear or whatever. And I didn't see anything, and
I'm looking around and then I just noticed that everybody was looking up in the
sky. And I looked up and I couldn't believe it. So just to
kind of give you perspective of what I saw. About a hundred feet in
front of our house there was this great eastern white pine, beautiful tree,
probably about seventy feet tall, and over top of it was a triangle.
It was massive, it was black. I still get goosebumps when I think
about it. But it was so big. I remember afterwards talking to my
dad and he mentioned that, you know, the size was probably about three
quarters to a kilometer long, which not quite sure what it is. Half
a mile I think about half a mile, half a mile, And I
mean this thing was massive. When you looked up at the sky, that's
all you saw. It was. It wasn't directly over the house, but
it was directly over the pine tree, and it just went What time of
night was I mean, was there daylight? No, it was It was
about six thirty in the evening. And you know how in August, late
August you got that nice golden sun warm, There wasn't a breeze, it
was a perfect night. The sky was blue, no clouds whatsoever. And
this thing is hanging there. And actually when we spoke Martin about having me
on the podcast, I grabbed some markers my daughter's markers, and I drew
something just to kind of give you an impression of what to look like.
And this is what I got. M Wow, pretty big. Hey,
that's so there's the's not a bad rendering. Oh it was. Yeah.
Here, let me let me do it. Let me do this so people
can see a little better. There you go, yeah, there you go.
Um, and there's a great eastern white pine in front. Now this
doesn't do just it was bigger than that. I just couldn't get it up
this standard sized piece of paper. Sure and h so there it is.
There it is saying it's up in it's it's up in the sky. And
immediately my father walks over to we have a front door. And it was
kind of strange because the front door didn't lead to anywhere. It kind of
dropped off. We were in a raised bungalow and it dropped off to the
ground, which was about six feet below. My father hadn't built the deck
at the time, and as he was walking over the door, he m,
he just he mentioned to one of the kids. My brother and I
turned the TV off, and we did and it was silent. He opened
the door and he kind of stood in the in the doorway kind of been
the frame looking up, and my mum kind of talked talk in right next
to him. Instantly, my brother and I we went into these little windows,
so below picture windows. I don't know if you remember this, Martin,
but they might still exist. But there was these little windows below that
you could slide open, and there was a screen, and my brother and
I knew exactly how how easy it was to pop the screens out, and
we each grabbed an opening and popped the screens out and stuck our heads out.
I was basically up to my waist out of the window and looking up.
What I found absolutely strange was that there was virtually no sound. There
was maybe a bit of a hissing sound, but there was nothing. There
wasn't even birds a chirp, and everything was was quiet. There wasn't traffic,
nothing was And we're staring up at this thing. And my brother and
I were looking at each other thinking what is this. This is ridiculous,
And we're watching for for you know, thirty forty seconds, and the telephone
rings and my mother, you know, she went over and picked up the
phone, and my dad's like just staring and I heard my mom say,
yeah, just a second, I'll get him. And then she calls over
to my dad, can you take the phone? And my dad was annoyed.
Oh my goodness, he wanted to stare at this, at this thing,
and he walked over. He grabbed the phone and he said yeah.
And the person on the other end, which I found out afterwards was a
neighbor, said she told him there's this huge thing over top of our house.
And but what I could hear wasn't that. I couldn't hear that.
We found that afterwards. But my dad was like, yeah, yeah,
I see it as well. I have no idea what it is. I
gotta go buy it. And he hangs up the phone and he walks over
to the back to the door. And I'll tell you what she said to
him a little later. But so now he's back at the doorway and then
he realizes, Wow, somebody get me my binoculars, and so he calls
out to one of us and I forget if it was my brother I but
somebody grabbed the binoculars brought it. Actually I think it was it was me
because I gave him the binoculars. And I remember standing there thinking, you
know, am I going to get a turn, and he's just looking up
at it, and he's taking his time. So I just went back to
my little window, stuck my head out and kept watching. And then he's
watching it for a bit and I remember him saying to my mom, you
gotta watch it. You gotta look at this. Take the binoculars. Take
a look. Now, this triangle kind of in the center of it,
there was it looked like it looked like these little lights in a circler.
But you could tell that there was like a protrusion coming down. I don't
know how big. But the reason I say that is because it was like
the lights went into a semicircle, so I couldn't see the other side,
so I estimated I figured that it was it was a protrusion. My dad
says, take a look at the lights, and my mom grabs him an
octypers and she's like, oh, my goodness, is that And then she
says it's that, and she's about to finish her sentence, and my dad
stops her and says, yes, and I And by that time I had
come out of the window and I was looking at them, and I was
looking at their eyes and thinking I was going to get a turn next,
and my dad's eyes were this big and he said yes, and the way
he stopped her was kind of like, that's enough. We don't need to
say anything. And I was like, you know, can I have my
turn? And my mom looked again, and then he said can I.
He asked her, can I have the binoculars back? And he grabbed the
binoculars and he kept looking, and at that point we noticed that just up
the road, not up the road, but just next to us, kind
of at a forty five degree angle from the front of our house what my
parents used to live there. And my aunt was standing on the front porch
and she was waving at us, and we noticed her and she's looking at
us and she's going she's doing this sign like what is it? You see
this? And we're like, yeah, we see it. We have no
idea what it is, and we just we just kept watching it, and
all of a sudden, it started moving, and everybody immediately said, wow,
it's moving. And it moved for a bit, and about a length
of the craft it moved, and by the time it got to um let's
say, three quarters of a kilometer that it had had pushed, we could
just see the back end of it. It just disappeared. It moved so
quickly. Um, it was gone in the blink of a of an eye.
Do you think it moved or do you think it just stood there?
Yeah, you know what. I thought about this a lot. And UM,
And actually I spoke to my father when we were adults, when I
was an adult about it. But I remember seeing a slight acceleration and speed
and then it was gone. But it was so quick and I had never
seen anything move like that before. Um, But it was gone and it
went. It was it was north. It went north from there and actually,
um, North Bay, which was north from where I lived. Um,
it had a place that was it's called the say she's connected to Norad.
It's command center that was interlict somehow, But that's the direction it went.
Wow. We were speechless. We all kind of just kept staring at
the sky, wondering if there'd be anything else. We were looking to the
opposite direction see if there was maybe more coming, and there wasn't anything.
We were looking at each other wonder what was that. And we ended up
at that point going outside. And I think in my when I wrote on
your site and I recounted the story. I didn't remember this part, but
I've been really thinking about the details, and I remember we left the house
and we went to go see my aunt, just to talk to her.
And I remember walking over to my aunt and she looked at us and she
was wonderful with kids. She looked at us and her eyes were big.
She had a big smash, goes, did you see that? That was
wonderful? It was so big, and we were asking what do you think
it was? She says, I don't know, maybe visitors from somewhere else.
And we were so excited. And my dad started talking to his sister
and she said. He asked her, did you see the lights? And
she said, yeah, I saw it. It was in the center,
she said. He said to her, we looked at it with the binoculars,
and then they started, you know, whispering, and I heard a
couple of little things, but I couldn't quite make it out, but I
heard it was like people. I heard like there were people. I asked,
what was it, Dad, and he said, don't worry about it.
We'll talk about it later. So we chatted a little bit with my
aunt and then we went back home and we sat around the kitchen table,
and I remember my dad getting himself a beer, lighting himself a cigarette and
thinking this is incredible. And you know, my other and I were just
asking questions like what was it? What wasn't my dad's like, I have
no idea what it was, you know, like it's definitely not man made.
The thing was huge. It just hovered, it did move. So
we asked my mom what did you see? What was it? And finally
she said, you know what, I looked at the knock. I looked
at the lights. It seemed it wasn't lights at all. It was it
looked like windows or like windows. Oh my goodness, she said, it
looked like there were people looking at us. There was like movement or you
know, something that made her think that it was it was something alive that
was looking back at us. Well, I'm like, what six look,
I'm freaking out here. I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, what
what do you talk about? There's like aliens? And my mom said,
I don't know it was you know, this is what I saw and I
could see movement, um and and that was it. And then so my
brother started talking and saying, oh, it's it's it's definitely aliens. And
he takes off and he goes into his bedroom and he comes back and he
liked to read a lot, and he had he had these magazines, few
magazines, and there were pictures of you know, drawings of witness accounts or
abductees of aliens. And he shows me, because that's probably what you saw,
and he shows it to my mom. Is that what you saw?
And my mom said, I couldn't. I couldn't see that that much detail.
I could just see something moving. So I'm looking at it. Oh,
my goodness, is this is this what's going on? Is this what
was in there? So we talked and it went on. The evening kind
of dragged on a little bit, and the night kind of came to the
sun set and things got dark and across my dad was across from me,
and right behind him was a window facing south, and you know how you
get that reflection because it was light inside the house, you could you could
see your reflection. Well, I started seeing eyes staring back at me,
and I was startled, and I remembered jumping on my mom and going and
kind of hiding my my my sight of Lyne from the window behind my my
father kind of and my mom's like, what's the matter. I'm seeing eyes?
There's an alien out there, And of course it was probably my imagination,
and you know, my brothers, you know, he's saying, you
don't worry about it. You know it's not that you know, m you
didn't see anything. And so we talked a little bit about it some more,
and finally it was time for bed, and you think I was going
to go to bed. There was no way I was going to go to
bed. And my parents got, you know, somewhat ritaate, and they
said, you got to go to bed. So I remember walking over to
my bedroom and peeking inside my bedroom and my curtains were open, and of
course it's like a mirror again. I see my face, but then I
see eyes again. Oh my goodness, I screamed, and I run back
to my mom. I'm like, you have to you have to go.
I'm not going to bed unless you shut those curtains, and Moms like,
you're being ridiculous, and my brother starts laughing at me. So I begged
her, and finally she went in and she shut the windows, and I
got ready for bed and jumped into bed and I remember laying in bed and
my parents had turned the light on outside the porch light in the back,
and just below the curtains, I could see light from the window and for
whatever reason, you know, the window was open, so my curtains were
moving a little bit, and of course it made the light move a bit.
I was losing it. I'd get an need the covers. I was
so terrified, really traumatized you. Oh my goodness, it was crazy.
And for a couple months it was really strange because I would when it got
dark out and now all the windows are now mirrors reflecting what was inside,
I would I would run and let's say I was going into the living room.
I would run into the living room and kind of jum dive onto the
couch and try to kind of hide myself from from the window. But there
was no place you could hide. There was always a window in sight.
But I did this for months, and my parents thought I was I was
crazy, and my brother of course laughed at me. And but you know
what, to this day, I still get startled when I walk into the
room and I just I get a h you know, when it's night out,
and I got that reflection. I just get that little feeling inside me
like, oh my goodness. Okay, nobody's out there, nobody's watching me.
It's good. Yeah. Well, we ran a bit long. There
was something I forgot to mention it. Yeah, but so I'm sorry,
I'm gonna have to wrap this up a little bit. But go ahead,
go ahead, Okay. I was just gonna say when we were all sitting
around and talking after the incident, I told my dad, Wow, I
can't wait to tell my my friends at school. At school was just around
the corner, and I remember the first day of school and my dad told
me says, don't you dare You're gonna be laughed at. You're gonna be
called crazy. Wow. What did I do? I told my friends one
when it was story time in the library and the librarian told me, she
says, you know, you saw a weather balloon. I looked at her
like, are you kidding me? I was not a weather balloon. She
says, it was a weather balloon and she dismissed it. That was it.
Yeah. So as far as from that point on, did you ever
talk about it or so? Yeah, we talked about it on and off
for the you know, the next couple of months and then we forgot about
it and my mom. You know, when I was an adult, I
never spoke about it to my mom for some reason. I don't know why.
But my dad before he died. The year before he died, I
remember we sat down and we had a couple of drinks and I asked them.
I said, you know, Dad, I need to ask you a
question. And he pretty much finished my sentence. He says, it's about
that triangle we saw, And I said yeah, And I mean you could
see the stress. You know, there wasn't There isn't a day that have
not thought about that thing. He says, I have no idea what it
was, but I wish it would come back. And that's that's pretty much
it. Since then, I've had little sightings, but nothing. Yeah,
kind of some things in the sky at night, but nothing like this.
This was incredibly Yeah. Did he ever say what he saw in the binocularcy?
Did he spell it out? Yeah? He described it. He said
that he saw he couldn't quite see like the details of a face or anything
like that, but he could see movement, so you know whatever that means,
Like he was trying to describe it, he could see it looked like
and it would stop and then there'd be a little bit of movement and they
would stop again, and he they assumed it was somebody something looking back at
us, but but he was you know, I asked him described the event
because I didn't want to kind of contaminate his memory or mine, I guess,
and I asked him to recount it. And it was pretty much exactly
what I what I told you, except I think it was the you know,
the time frame. I had originally thought it was mid August, but
he said, no, no, it was closer to the end of August.
He said, don't you remember you went to school like like the falling
Monday or Tuesday or something like that, So it was it was pretty much
exact. Well yeah, well well we actually made it right up to the
break here. So okay, all right, so thanks so much. That
was really great. Totally appreciate it, no problem, and anyone can see
that story right on the website podcast THROUGHFO dot com under UFO Sightings. You
take care, Jacques, thanks for agreeing to come on. You two take
care all right. All right, everyone, so we are going into the
break right now. This is a I guess you would call this a shameless
plug for my artwork. So I live up and I live up in Maine,
and I just started to do some local scenes. I live right on
the coast here at Maine. So this is the latest of the paintings that
I've done. I've also done a lot of different, uh different types of
paintings over the years, and anyone can check out the paintings over at This
is a Royal borealis here. Actually this painting was an accident how that came
out like that, and so I went with it. And also I do
abstract work and that's Martin Willis art dot Com. So check that out.
If anyone sees anything over there that they sort of fancy, all you have
to do is use the code UFO and you get fifty percent off. Now,
I also want to say this too, because I like to get my
artwork out there so I can keep painting. If anyone sees something that they
really really like and they're interested in it, contact me, we'll work something
out. Again, I like to get the paintings out there. So I
am going to this is during the break. Actually, I'm going to bring
my guest on early. I'm going to have to introduce him twice. It's
only because the way this um the sighting kind of ran over the time that
I thought it would, So I'm bringing bringing him back in now. And
so David, welcome to the show. I am delighted to be here.
Mark. Thank you. I'm going to have to introduce you a second time
because we're during the break right now. Yeah, and I also have to
bring in KGr A radio so they can tell us when when we go back.
So anyway, thanks so much for agreeing to come back. So I
guess what I'll do. David's we have a couple of minutes left, probably
two minutes or so left to this break. Where where are you located?
You're in h I am in Durham, North Carolina, during North Carolina.
And while have you been there a long time? Oh? I've been in
North Carolina now I think forty four years. Yeah, that's that's pretty long
y Yeah. Now is the area known for any UFO sightings? Not that
I know of. Ah. I wish I could tell you that we that
that's one of our claims to fame, but I don't think it is.
I see we're getting a little bit of noise. It might be from the
cable on your mic. If you want to pull that around front. A
lot of times the cables will rub and make noises. So that's better.
Now I'm still hearing a little bit of it. It's like a when you
move this kind of a little bit of a noise. Maybe you can maybe
it'll it'll settle down. But but you're also first in flight there, that's
true. Yeah, we will wear the right brothers for the first time.
Flew a heavier than aircraft that ended up higher that it started. Yeah,
only a few feet, but those few feet were e buck making. Yes,
that's right. Yeah, you're gonna have to work a little bit on
that cable. Why don't you put the cable around the back of you.
Maybe that will change things. Maybe let me try unplugging and unplugging it again.
No, no, that's not it. How's this still hearing the noise?
It's funny we didn't hear it during the sound test. Should I should
I try it without the h I think we may have to do that.
I think we may have to do that. Is that unplugged? Now it's
unplugged, all right, gentlemen, We are coming back in five seconds.
All right, sounds good stand by in three two one go. All right,
we are back and my guest is David Halpern. I'm this second time.
I'm welcome, welcoming you. Welcome to the show, David. I'm
delighted to be here. Martin. Thank you so much for having me.
Yes, and you have a book, this your second book, but i'd
like to talk to you about you were actually a UFO researcher in your teens
and along with Jerome Clark, which is oh yes, yes, a funny
story about Jerome. Back when I wasn't doing these shows live, I was
pre recording. Jerome was on my schedule to come on my show, and
so I got him on Skype and I started recording, and so he I
started in the conversation. He goes, you haven't read any of my books,
and I said, uh no, heaven't. He goes, well,
this interview is over then, and that was as far as I got with
him, and he said, if you want to he goes, if you
want to read one of my books, then then schedule it and I'll be
back. So anyway, it didn't go well, Yeah, he's a he's
an extraordinary man. I know he is. And he's a musician, and
he's a there's a yeah, there's a lot going on with Jerome and he's
one of the best researchers out there, been at it so long well when
he was when I was fifteen and he was sixteen, we used to exchange
ten and twenty page letters about you really Wow. We go back so far
wow. And so I know that was a long time ago, But how
did you get interested in the topic so young? I was twelve going on
thirteen, and a friend of mine and I decided to write an extra credit
paper for science and I think we were going to do it on life on
other planets, and we decided we'd we're going to have a chapter on flying
saucers. Back then, flying saucers was the more common name for them.
This was in the fall of nineteen sixty and we bicycled to the public library
of Levittown, Pennsylvania, and there were three books on flying saucers there.
One was by Carl Jung, The Flying Saucers a Modern Myth of things seen
in the skies, and a second was Gray Barker. They knew too much
about flying saucers, so I borrowed the book, took it home and began
reading it, and pretty soon I was so scared I wanted to hide under
my bed. I like the last guest. There's an extraordinary story. By
the way, Yes, it was. Yeah, that that they if you're
listen, if your viewers have not read they knew too much about flying saucers,
they have a rare treat in store for them. It's an extraordinary book.
And that's the book that created what I will call the myth of the
three Men in Black are more generally the men in Black that finally made it
to Hollywood's Greens forty years later, But that was the central theme of Barker's
book, that there are men in black who visit you if you've found out
too much about flying saucers and terrorize you into silence. I read that book
and instantly I was persuaded by it, and I saw it as my mission,
at age almost thirteen, to follow in the footsteps of the men whom
Barker described in the book and unravel what Barker called the secret of the elusive
discs. That was the getting Now when was that book published nineteen fifty six?
Oh wow, Okay, now I gotta tell you we're getting a little
feedback from me. You're gonna have to turn your volume down on your speakers
just a little bit. There, let's do that. Okay, you want
to still be able to hear me. It sounds like it's okay, yep,
thank you. So nineteen fifty six and wow? And is that book?
That book's long out of print, but you can probably find it.
No, it's it's been reissued in paperback. I see, So I think
anybody who wants it can get hold of it. Uh huh. And so
you went, you dug right in at a very very young age. And
how long did that last? I'm got my first answer is going to be
until I went to college, But there are two more accurate answers. One
answer is until my mother died, which was a year before I went to
college, and that, to me was the pivotal event in my early uphology.
And we can talk more about that why that should have been so.
The other answer, which is an even truer answer, is that it's lasted
until this moment. That the fascination that UFOs have for me has never faded,
even though I no longer believe that they objectively exist as physical machines as
and I think you boke of this in your introduction that I went to college.
I majored in classical and Semitic languages. I focused eventually on the Bible
and on early religious traditions, particularly Jewish, and the ones that most attracted
me were traditions of heavenly ascent and other worldly journeys. The part of the
Bible that I kept going back to was the Book of Ezekiel, and Ezekiel
begins his book with a vision of wheels. It's part of a much part
of a larger vision, but the wheels are there. Many have said their
UFOs, and I think those people are right. I think Ezekiel's wheels were
fos. I just don't think UFOs are spaceships. Well, you know,
I'm going to have to ask you what you think they are right off the
bat here we are very early in the show here. But and do you
think that it could still be part of the equation or do you think just
absolutely no, you don't think there are anything to do with extraterrestrial I don't
think so. I don't think so. I think we say they're extraterrestrial because
we intuitively see them as being alien and the only model we have for alieness
is to say extraterrestrial. But to me, they are visitors not from outer
space, but from inner space inside us, and we have inside us enough
alieness to fill a universe. Okay, well, let's just bring back the
topic of our guest that was just on prior to you shock. Yes,
lots of witnesses there. How could the same thing manifest in multiple witnesses?
I don't know. And there is the further complication that we're dealing with memories
and we don't know how that affected us and how that affected it. But
I can say that there are cases, and they're often quite baffling, in
which multiple witnesses see things that could not have happened. And I will give
you the example the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, Portugal in October nineteen
seventeen, in which a crowd that some have estimated as seventy thousand saw the
Sun fall to the Earth. How did that happen? I don't know.
The one thing I am perfectly sure of is that the Sun cannot possibly fall
to the Earth. So what there was that made seventy thousand people simultaneously see
it? Do an impossible thing. I do not know. Now, some
of the UFO sightings involve multiple witnessing of things that we have good reason to
believe were not there. And I'm not in ti not I don't know,
I'll spit those words out. I don't know how that happens. Oh okay,
yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Continue, but I'm not prepared to
say that the things they saw were actually there. Well, what about when
things are backed up with radar data and other, you know, other data.
Look what other data are we talking about? Um filming um you know,
for instance, the Nimits case when they had you know, gun footage
of these objects, and even the you know, even the the Pentagon is
you know, saying that these are unidentified, not knowing what they are.
Of course, that doesn't mean they're alien. But still, what about when
things are backed up with other evidence. Besides, I've seen I've seen some
some videos about those famous Navy videos, suggesting that at least one of them,
which seems to be zooming along the surface of the water, is in
fact a weather balloon, and that the apparent velocity of the thing is the
velocity of the jet. I will not swear that this is the answer,
but the evidence hardly seems to me to support the idea that we've been visited
for the past seventy years by extraterrestrials. All right, I've dodged your question
about the radar, right, Yeah, I mean there is not only like
just for instance, in Mimic's case, since I mentioned that it wasn't just
one ship, it was more multiple ships that had this on the radar.
It was the Hawkeye you know above that all they had all the data on
this um And we're talking about sophisticated equipment here, So not only was it
eyewitness, but you know, it was on the radar, and which it
seems to me makes it just as if anything, more likely that there was
some sort of a glitch in the equipment. How could that be if there's
three radar units all reporting recording the same thing. This isn't the only case,
but I'm just saying they're all recording at the same time. The finest
equipment that can be can be made today, and you're saying it's all failing.
At the same time, I'm saying that it does things we don't quite
expect it to do. The radar, Yeah, and when we talk about
the radar. I think we have to recognize and this is coming back to
where I dropped your question, that often things appear on the radar that don't
appear that they are not seen, like this was the case in the famous
chase in Belgium in March of nineteen ninety where pilots were sent up to pursue
objects that were seen from the ground. They got radar locks on these objects,
they could not see them, and they experienced on the radar the objects
zooming away at supersonic speeds without a sonic boom. That to me is pretty
convincing evidence that whatever we're dealing with there is not a solid object. And
what are you proposing that it is that case, I don't explain, but
in my book, Martin, you made in my book that I dealt with
the Belgian sightings and I talked about their triangles. That and the history of
the triangle is an interesting sort of subdivision of UFO history. When I was
young, a teenage upologist, we didn't have such things that that the UFOs
were either discs or else they were cigar shaped, which were larger, and
we suppose that they were mother ships. The triangles The story that Jacques told
us is a very early story of triangles. They really came into their own
in the Hudson Valley site in the mid eighties and then in Belgium in nineteen
eighty nine to ninety. Now, the standard pattern, it was not the
only kind of UFO that people saw during that way was three lights and in
the center a weaker red light. And I would use two ways of approaching
that. And I should add one other thing that when people photographed them,
they did not appear on the photographs. At most they got a blog.
Okay, there was one good photograph and that turned out to be a hoax.
Well, there's actually controversy about that, and there's it's very deep.
I've spoke to Leslie Kane in depth about that. There was some money exchanged
so in regards to that photo. So it's not one h convincing that it
is indeed a hoax yet, because it can't be replicated. Even this Patrick,
the guy who did it, explained how it was done. They tried
to get him to replicate it, and he couldn't do it. As far
as I know, I can get more into that. I don't have that
information in front of me, but I looked into this quite a while ago.
But anyway, Yeah, so i'd look at a different direction that I
would look for what was inside the witnesses that they projected into the sky.
And one path I would take is the Ungi path. All right. I
mentioned that Yung's Flying Sources was one of the other books that was in the
Levittown Public Library, and when I read it, I couldn't make head or
tail out of it, actually, because I thought that would Yo called UFOs
a myth he was putting them down, which he wasn't, and that he
showed that the standard disc shape, the mandala, is something that crops up
in dreams, in legends as a symbol of wholeness. And also there is
another what he called an archetype of wholeness, the quaternity A four, a
foursome of which three are different from the fourth. Okay, so here we've
got a quaternity of three bright white lights and a dimmer red one. But
now Eric Wellet, a Canadian sociologist, has pointed in another direction that what
would just say compliments, yes, and that is what was the symbolism,
symbolism of white lights and a red light. Remember the Belgian UFO Wave began
at the end of November nineteen eighty nine, right after the Berlin Wall came
down. This was a time of earth shaking changes, that communism was crumbling
in Eastern and Central Europe, mostly without violence, and this is something that
nobody would have expected until it happened. Now, the red star is a
symbol for communism, right, and the white star was and is a symbol
of NATO. So I think what people were seeing was a symbolic representation of
what they knew was happening around them. Well wasn't there dozens of police officers
that in the Belgian wave that reported seeing them? Yeah? Yeah, And
this gets into the problem of how you've got multiple sightings. Well, I
guess you know. I'm not agreeing with you here, but that doesn't mean
we can continue can't continue to talk about it. I just I just feel
as though there's so many cases that with multiple witnesses. I just can't understand
how you're a theory and here you are a person that's looked at this topic
for a long time. So I'm not you know, I'm not considering you
a debunker for that you know reason alone, But I find it interesting.
So how did you come up with this conclusion after all these years? Because
I could not under I could not make any sense out of the extra terrestrial
hypothesis. You've pointed out some flaws at my approach, and I acknowledge there
are incidents that I can't explain, But there are so many flaws in the
extraterrestrial hypothesis. Why would we have space visitors for seventy years? How could
that be? And that they have not had the slightest impact on the lives
of people on Earth. I don't know if you've read Donald Keyhoe's That the
Flying Surcers Are Real, which was the first book to be published UFO book
to be published back in nineteen fifty, but there's a really quite affecting passage
in it in which Keyhoe describes taking a commercial flight which is filled with passengers,
and he says, the lives of everyone on that plane we're going,
we're about, are about, We're about to be transformed by the presence of
the flying Saucers. Now, in nineteen fifty, that was a completely reasonable
expectation. Seventy years have passed since Keyhoe took that flight. Hardly anyone aboard
that airplane is still alive. Not one single person's life has been affected in
the slightest by the supposed centers. How is this intelligible? If we have
if we have spaceships from somewhere else, Well, who are you to say
that that no one's lives have changed, Because I know plenty of people who
have had you know, an experience, um even just a major sighting,
and their lives have totally changed. So I can you put that in different
contexts? Yeah? There that by this time, a real, a reasonable
expectation would have been that the UFOs would make themselves known, that there would
be no doubt about them. It has not happened. The early UFO books
are filled with prophecies of this sort. There that we're bound to see major
developments, We're bound to see mass landings, we're bound to have something,
an invasion, contact something. The decades have passed, nothing has happened.
As the Book of Ezekiel puts it, the days grow long, and every
vision faileth. Every vision has failed. Yeah, but whose expectations is That's
an expectation that is put on an outside source. We have no control over.
That's our own expectations. So we have no idea what their agenda,
who if they are, you know, from extraterrestrial I'm not saying that I
know that they are, but I'm just saying, whoever is visiting us from
wherever, we have no idea what they're their thoughts, and you know,
we don't have any idea of their physics or how they got here or what
they are. But which then begins to explain why they can go at supersonic
speeds without sonic booms. That is, that's something Yeah, like I said
in physics, that they may know about that we don't. You know that
it could be something along those lines. Now I will turn that around Martin,
and I will ask you, what then is gained by explaining UFOs as
extraterrestrial visitors. Since we can posit nothing about extraterrestrial visitors, what is the
advantage of saying that over saying we don't know? I generally say the listeners
on the show know me well enough to say that. That's generally the term
I say. You know, there's only one case that I've ever and that
was just last week, and that was the Ariel School incident where I said,
you know, I don't know what else to explain of those creatures that
you know, sixty two plus school children had, you know, saw firsthand.
I have no idea what else to call them but aliens. That was
the first time that I've actually said that that I can remember on the show.
I think extraterrestrial is a possibility, but I don't rule it out.
But I still don't claim that everything is extraterrestrial, that's for sure. I
never claimed that. So then I would I would go at it and from
a different angle and ask the basic question, which was the basic question of
my book, not what are UFOs or where do they come from? But
what do they mean? To treat them as vessels meaning, and to say
that we see them because they mean something to us. And this is the
model that I used to explain the cases that I took up in the book,
including one classic case, the William Booth Gill sighting in Papua New Guinea.
Shall we talk about that, sure? I think that's a great,
great case. Yes, yes, it's a okay, because we are dealing
here with multiple witnesses that something like twenty five the witness who's been regarded as
the primary witness, and this may be a racist, colonialist bias. The
primary witnesses has been taken to be William Booth gill And, a young Anglican
priest of about thirty one who was serving as a missionary at a place called
Boyara in Papua New Guinea. He and something like twenty five of his parishioners
signed a paper describing how they had seen discs at fairly close range and human
like beings walking on top of the discs. Now Gil said, at one
point, no doubt they are human beings, which should be food for thought
for all of us, that we are now so used to the classic image
of the gray with the lightbulb shaped head and the huge, outsized oval eyes,
that we forget that that image did not exist until the beginning of nineteen
eighty seven. Prior to that. The people who reported seeing humanoids or human
like beings in connection with the UFOs describe them in other ways, and in
the case of Guilt, it was that they looked like human beings in all
respects except that they glowed. So at one point he said they were humans,
and then at other times he said they were angels. And to me,
I would hold on to both that they were human and they were angels.
Okay, this I don't think is explainable. If you suppose that these
were actual space visitors, why should they should we get different kinds of visitors
depending on what book becomes a best seller. I'm thinking of Whitley Strieber's Communion
and stirs up the imaginations of the people who saw it. Now, what
were Gilt and his parishioners looking at sky? Charts suggest that they were looking
at unusually bright stars and planets seen through clouds. That that was why they
tended to disappear as the clouds gather and return. As the clouds dispersed,
something within them was emerging. And what I saw it as was the Jungian
Mandala, the Jungian Quaternity, which they created together. Not just Guilt his
parishioners came from traditions in which guy gods descend from heaven and manifest themselves to
human beings. And their vision I'd actually prefer to call UFO sightings visions than
sightings. Their vision served to bridge to attempt to heal the conflicts between Guilt
and his people. It seems to me if you try to say that these
were extraterrestrials, you run into an insurmountable problem. Why were they seen as
humans? And if you say, well, they were making it up,
I think that it makes no sense at all. So I would say they
were what for them was a healing vision coming from inside, stimulated by bright
heavenly bodies. But what counted was what it meant for them. Now you
use the word debunker a moment ago, and I want to say, I
do not consider myself a debunker. I consider myself a skeptic because I don't
believe that the UFOs actually exist, but I don't believe their bunk. I
believe there's something extremely important and that a UFO citing is what our ancestors would
have called a vision of God. Well, uh so, getting back to
the Father guilt case, Um, you know they there was interaction there too,
with the flashlights and the waving and all that. But you think I
just can't under I can't understand when you're you know, the Fatima thing,
you know back then with all those witnesses and yes, forty to seventy thousand
people and what they saw, you know, was not the sun, and
there has been a question about whether it was a UFO, And then the
church got involved and said it was something holy, and you know so,
but they you know, I don't know how all of these people can see
the same thing at the same time. And one thing, one other point
I want to make here is again last week's Guests where it was also a
first hand witness to who was a school child at the time in nineteen ninety
four in Rua, Africa, in the at the Ariel School when they saw
the being, you know, firsthand, and one was you know, kind
of skimming along and blinking out and blinking in like it didn't look like it
was actually running. This is according you know, to a witness. But
when they drew pictures of them, they did have the big almond eyes,
you know, black eyes like that. Now, the point I'm getting at
is these kids, so isolated, had no idea, had never heard of
the word UFO, had never heard of thought the word of aliens or anything
like that. Yet they all witnessed this, and some of them is you
know, very young, all witnesses, and to this day their stories have
never changed. And what date are we talking about? What's that? What
date are we talking? Nineteen ninety four and had nothing to do with Whitley
Strieber because this is South Africa and just completely isolated, very small little village,
small town. There was no exposure to UFOs there. How do you
know that? Well, according to uh, you know people that have actually
interviewed them my guests last week, UM that they just never had any exposure.
Are you thinking that you're you would think that they would have to have
exposure to come up with this? Yeah, yeah, I would want to
find somebody who describes those huge eyes prior to communion. I mean, if
you look, Patrick Weig did a book on UFO occupants with depiction with with
with with artwork depicting them. The huge eyes don't appear until nineteen eighty seven.
What about Barney Barney Hill, I saw that you wrote in his book
those are pretty pretty large eyes that he drew. No, not like streamers.
Now, what was remarkable about Barney Hill's eyes was that they were rapp
around. And Martin Kottmeyer has I think demonstrated very convincingly that the wrap around
eyes came from a science fiction science a science fiction TV show, The Outer
Limits. That they first that this, that it was The Outer Limits in
February of nineteen sixty four, that first introduced them, and then two weeks
later they turn up in Barney Hill's Hypnotic Regressions. Now Betty Hill denied that
this was possible. She said, Barney never we never watched that show.
Barney would never have watched it. But things like that are in the air.
He may have heard his co workers talking about it, and it.
I mean, we can we can look at I have the picture, the
sketch that Barney did, and it's in my book of the the beings that
he's the that he remembered. Yes, I have it. I have your
book here too. Yeah, I'll move it up here. Now, notice
those eyes have iris. I won't say iris and pupil because I don't see
a pupil, but they are they are. They are like human eying that
they've got at least an iris. Now, in Whitley Streepers, I'm sorry,
I'm putting it in the wrong direction, but in Whitley Streepers, this
is solid black with sort of a split running down from one corner of the
eye to another. These do not seem to me at all to be the
same kind of eyes. All right, well, I'm gonna also I'm going
to keep arguing this Ariel School because they all said there were black eyes,
and they're all they're very little children. There's no way they could have coordinated
sixty five children to all do the same thing when they came running in from
the playground and the teachers went out. After two teachers went out and saw
the object. And I don't know if they saw the beings or not,
but anyway, there's just no way these kids could have come up with that
on even through a coordinated event. I think that human beings have an extraordinary
ability to communicate with each other without even knowing what that we're doing it.
I believe it was Bruce Hood in Super Sense who wrote that there have been
studies in which people students watch something like ten seconds of a college professor lecturing,
don't even hear without even voice, just the sight of the professor lecturing,
and they are able to guess with a very high degree of accuracy what
kind of course evaluations that professor gets. We communicate enormous amounts of information to
each other without being aware of it. And that's, by the way,
what I think happened with Father Gilli and his people. I think they must
have said, oh, do you see that do you see that? And
at least a large number of those who were present, not all of them,
because some of them didn't sign the paper attesting to seeing it, but
a large number of them were We're able, without being aware of it,
to come to a consensus about what they were seeing. I think something of
the sort must have happened at Fatima, although I don't know, and I'm
not sure. I mean that. I am tempted to say, well,
maybe it's mental telepathy, but then we're explaining one unknown by another, and
I'm not going to do that. So I don't know exactly what the mechanism
was at the Rio School. I don't know exactly what the mode of communication
was, but it seems to me it is vastly more probable that there was
some form of communication, some form of I would say, unconscious coordination,
than to say that these beings who are not observed before nineteen eighty seven objectively
exist. Well, why don't you try to give me some examples of other
things that you think manifest in this way? I mean, through some type
of you mentioned about the college professor. But because I really I don't agree
with you on this, to be honest with you, you know, and
that's that's fine. You have your opinion. I have mine, but I
can't you know, I had a UFO sighting and there's nothing in the world
that made that any point that I can imagine where I thought, I want
to see a UFO or I have this disc you know, in my head,
you know, the thought of it or something like that, and all
of a sudden it just appear out of nowhere. And what about all you
know, the Phoenix lights, for instance, and the thousands of people that
saw that, and they were all in different locations, they weren't together,
they weren't communicating with each other. The phone ran off, rang off the
hook for weeks from witnesses from that that were outside looking at the comet.
In a situation like that, how can you argue that, Yeah, I
don't know what the phoenix lights were. I don't know what they were.
But I'll give you you ask for you ask for another example. Let's take
one that I gave in my book. This was in the epilogue. Are
you familiar with John Lennon and May Pangs UFO sighting? Yeah, in nineteen
seventy four, I read yeah, yeah, yeah, And this is where
I get very very union, all right, because that's the let's say,
the model that I'm working with that it was an August evening in nineteen seventy
four. And I must tell you when Jacques was talking, I thought,
ah, an August evening, the windows open. Although in other respects I
don't think his experience is like that of John and Maypang that May was coming
out of the shower and John was walking around the apartment naked, as was
as was his habit. He calls to her, May May come out,
May May come out here. He's out on the terrace of the penthouse apartment,
and she drops the towel and comes out. They're both naked. And
why I keep insisting on that is that in nearly all of the interviews with
John and May, they both keep coming back to their being, to being
naked. They go and we'll come and you'll see why I think that's crucially
important. In a minute, A see a disc, a domed disc passing
overhead. John says that if I had had a brick, I could have
thrown it and hit it, thrown the brick and hit this object. It
was so close. They had a camera. They took photos of it.
The photos came out black, which to me is proof that there was nothing
in the sky that, as I keep saying again and again in my book,
the UFO came from inside. Now why is nudity important here? Because
if I were to ask your viewers, when was the last time that a
naked human couple was confronted by a numinous presence? Surely they would answer in
the guard Garden of Eden, right, that God is walking in the garden
in the cool of the day, says Adam, where art thou and Adam
says, I heard thy voice walking in the garden, and I was ashamed
because I was naked, and I hid myself. So what I'm suggesting there
is that John and May unconsciously reenacted this ancient, I would say, archetypal
story of the human couple, That the naked human couple confronted by a numinous
presence that conveys to them and will take another step here their mortality. Dost
thou art for and dust shalt thou return? Now how does this happen?
My belief is that these things are hardwired in the human mind, and that
they can emerge precisely when their least wanted. This was the same John Lennon
who three years before had sung his most famous song of the post Beatle era,
Imagine, imagine, there's no heaven above us, only sky, in
other words, banishing the enchanted numenous heaven and the enchanted numenous heaven come back.
And once again we have the problem of how the two of them see
it together. And I can talk more. I can give you another example
of that problem, which but you've already flagged it. What's that? That
that the Pascagoula abduction. Okay, I'm in touch with Calvin all the time,
so I'm sure he's a very religious man, by the way, But
well, then then you we. If Calvin is watching, I would say
I'd value your responses to this, because Calvin, I'm going to have to
admit to you that I don't think you and Hickson were abducted. I don't
think it was possible you were close enough to a highway that they that the
object that abducted you would have been visible to dozens, if not hundreds of
motorists, and there was no confirming report. But I also don't think you
and Charles hoaxed it. That makes no sense. To me at all.
And I'm not going I'm going to stop addressing Calvin. I'm going to address
you and Martin that what most struck me about that abduction is the police tapes.
You know what I'm talking about? Yes, Yes, that the police
when they reported it, put them in a room where they thought they were
alone. There was a hidden tape recorder, and the police expected that when
they played the tapes they would hear Hickson and Parker shortling about how they'd fooled
these dumb cops, and what they instead heard was something like something like that
drive you slam bam out of your mind. Jesus Christ, like to give
me a heart attack. These were two people who had had something that they
experienced that affected them powerfully. Now what was that? What really interests me,
And this is not only this is not original with me. I cannot
remember the name of the author, but it was a Jungian analysis of their
experience which focused on how the UFO opened like a coin purse. Okay,
and let me, I happen to have, by an odd coincidence, a
coin purse in my pocket that it opened okay, seeming it right, but
sort of like this, you're seeing that. Okay, we've seen one of
those in years. Yeah. Well, I'm very old fashioned. I sort
of carry things around that other people have discarded long ago. That is the
way a fish's mouth would open. These were two men who went onto the
pier to fish, and were themselves fished for by a greater fish. And
I begin to think that, just as John and May reenacted the Eden's story,
Calvin and Charles reenacted the story of Jonah, something of that sort in
the Whale now, except it wasn't. The Bible never says whale the Lord
had prepared a great fish to swallow Joan. Yeah. Well, uh,
you know, well, let me ask you this, has anyone ever goten
angry at you for telling them that what they saw was not basically a manifestation
of thoughts or whatever? Have you getten people angry at you? Because I'm
gonna I've gotten people angry at me for many reasons. I do not think.
I cannot recall any The closest thing that came to that was do you
know the whole business about Westall High School in Melbourne, Australia. Oh yes,
yes, And I should say that Shane Ryan, who was the main
the primary investigator of this. Yes, he and I. He is a
fine gentleman, and he and I have for the past four years cordially disagreed
about what was going on at Westall. Now what struck me in one of
the witnesses who saw actually two landed discs that in the drawing that was made
of them, they look exactly like the breasts of a girl or woman lying
on her back. And this was in an area which, according to Shane's
the movie The Shane was featured in Westall sixty six was a known place for
steamy liaisons. Okay, so I suggested that what the witness remembered was something
about the sexual activities in this area, and one ufologists, not Shane,
show the witness what I'd written, and apparently he was completely flabbergasted. I
would not blame this man at all. If he were furious at me,
I don't know. Well, I don't know whether he was or just unbelieving
that I could have imagined such a thing. So I suppose the short answer
to your question is, if they didn't get mad at me, I am
surprised, because they have every reason to get mad at me. Okay,
Well, at least you have thick skin because you're going to need it when
I take phone calls and you might need it. I should say, I'm
well asked it. We'll ask people to be kind. Yeah, Now,
when you're when you are are looking into these cases. So there's nothing that
you have found in all through history that of any UFO cases and witnesses and
uh maybe trace evidence cases. Nothing, nothing that convinces you that it could
be. And I'm not saying extraterrestrial because I don't really know if these objects
are, but I mean there's other speculation of where they may be coming from.
Um I'll tell you. Of all the cases that you might say,
the one that troubles me the most is Socorro, New Mexico, April nineteen
sixty four. Yeah, okay, there there were traces very in a good
Jungian pattern by the way, sort of like a tripod and a triangle,
and a fourth trace that is outside the triangle. There was one witness,
Lonnie Zamora, who was regarded by everyone as a reliable witness. Now Zamora
could have dug those holes, and if you pushed me into a corner,
I would have to say, yes, I think he did dig those holes
and make up the make up his story. But Lonnie, if you're listening
from the other world, please forgive me, because I know that I am
speaking ill of a man whom everyone regarded as a solid citizen, an upright
lawman, and someone who would not hoax. But I cannot think of any
alternative, and I am totally dissatisfied with this hypothesis. If anyone can come
up with a better room, I will be interested. But I do not
count the idea that these small humanoids who were shaped exactly like human beings except
for their diminutive size, that that that they were visitors from another planet.
That I do not consider an acceptable alternative. Well, Um, Ray Stamford
often listens to the show if he was the investigator there and wrote the book,
um Um, I don't have the title right off the tip of my
tongue here, but if he happens to be listening, he may want to
call in um to talk to you about that case. He he knew Lonnie,
Um, and uh there it just seems like, you know, Monnie
was the last person out there that wanted any attention. You know that part
two, right, So why would he help? Sometimes? So unsatisfied.
Unsatisfied, But it's your only answer, is that what you're saying, it's
the best I can come up with, like your Alkham's razor, so to
speak. I don't know if it's Olkham's razor, but yeah, I mean
I can. Okay, I'm going to do it. This is kind of
cheating, Okay, and I'll admit that, but I'm going to flip it
around and say, how likely is it that in seventy years we would have
such a just a handful of solid cases like this. Okay, that's your
question to me. And yeah, maybe maybe they are observing and want to
just observe whoever they are, wherever they're from. And maybe they're maybe they
realize that they would have an impact on any type of society that would expose
wherever they're from. And then we get back to the question of their motives,
which when I was a teenage ufologist I gave the same answer that I've
heard from you. We can't say put ourselves in their place because we don't
know what their place is. And it's only now that I would say this
strips the extraterrestrial hypothesis of any explanatory power. It might have and and can
you explain that a little more? Yeah, because if we don't have any
idea what kind of behavior would be expected of alien visitors, then what do
we gain by saying it is alien visitors? But that's that's has nothing to
do with um. That would be like, um, we're not going to
change dark matter, but we don't know what it is, you know,
I mean, I don't understand your reasoning there. That Okay. When Keyhoe
in nineteen fifty said these are beings from other planets visiting us, he thought
he knew what we could expect from that. He thought he knew what space
visitors could be expected to do, and therefore that was an answer to the
question of what people were seeing. Seventy years later, all we can say
is whatever they're doing is something utterly unlike what we might imagine them to be
doing, in which case we don't no anymore than we did to start out
with. Yeah, but what does it have to do with us? I
mean, we're that's our again. I'll say it again, that's our maybe
your expectations or maybe some other people's expectations as well, but that has nothing
to do with the actual situation. Seventy years. It's a little tiny blip
of time when it comes to you know, the cosmos, so to speak.
I mean, what is seventy years? Why not two thousand years or
fifty years or ten years? What's the difference then? Now I don't understand
your point. Okay, it sounds to me like you're saying seven years later
we don't know anything, and we should know something by now. Is that?
What is that what you're saying? Yeah, And I think if you
read the UFO books from back then, they were filled with that expectation.
It's the most reasonable expectation. And in the world. Why is it reasonable?
That's our thoughts, has nothing to do with what's happening, I think,
because when you say that there are visitors, we assume these are intelligent
beings, the kind of beings that we might communicate with, And unless we
presuppose some sort of shared understandings, then to say that it's intelligent beings makes
no sense. I mean, they let let me the I remember when I
was a when I was a teenage uphologist. I remember where I drew a
cartoon and the cartoon showed made a couple of Native Americans by Ashore watching three
ships approach, the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria, and
one of the Native Americans says to the other, you brought me all the
way out here to look at temperature and versions. Okay, good you left.
I mean, I thought it was a pretty funny cartoon. But when
the Natives encountered these alien crafts that appeared on their horizon, the consequences were
clear, very very soon. That nothing of the sort has happened with the
UFOs seems to me to hast a tremendous shadow on whether it is helpful to
pull them visitors, unless you do it as I do, to speak of
them as visitors from inside us, telling us things that we need to know,
not necessarily want to know. By the way, Yeah, well,
you know, I'm if I argue with you more, I'm basically going to
be saying the same the same thing, because my thoughts are that, you
know, whatever it is, may just be observing, may not choose to
interact. And like you said, when you're back in the nineteen sixties,
you know, the thinking, how do we know what they're thinking? Is
we have no idea how they think. We couldn't even imagine it if wherever
they're from again, they may not be extraterrestrial. I don't know what it
is, um, but anyway, I'm opening the line up and be respectful.
It's eight five five four seven two five four eight three. The line
is open if anyone wants to call in. I was seeing some chats that
were, uh see someone. I'm reading this right off the cuff here,
So I don't know what exactly saying it says. Please ask him if he
believes panda bears? What? Oh, never mind? Do you believe in
panda bears? Scientists declined their existence for seventy five years, yet they are
real. I think he's trying to make a point. So now, why
if I believe in panda bears, why should I believe in UFOs. It's
just I just picked. I just picked a one to read right up the
bat that was addressed to me and basically saying that there was a denial for
seventy five years and they did exist after all. But anyway, the line
is open again. That number is is eight five five four seven two five
four eight three. I know people want to call and talk, and so
that line is open and we actually have I don't know six lines anyone could
call. In last week the phone was ringing off the hook. We had
a lot of calls, but you never know. Sometimes we will not get
any calls. So as are there other people that share your belief? I
get do we call it a belief? Is that what you call it?
Yeah? I mean I think I'm following in the in the footsteps of Jacques
Valley. I mean, we don't totally agree on everything, but what fallet
flag in this seminal book passport to Magonia. And this is a point that
I would have made much earlier, that the UFOs seem to reflect the technology
of the society that observes them, which will make excellent sense if they're a
human phenomenon, no sense if they're visitors from elsewhere. Have any of your
guests talk a bit talked about the airship of eighteen ninety seven, Yes,
with the lights coming down and all that. Yes, and people actually make
in contact with the pilots of the airship. Only these are not intergalactic aliens,
but American inventors, often from New York State, who have an odd
tendency to be named Wilson. Now, what were these people seeing? What
did it. What was the experience when they met the pilots, Because just
like the fallen the falling sun at Fatima, these are things that there's no
way they can have existed. Would you agree with that? Well, you
know, I could have. I could agree that there's no technology that we
had at that time. But I'm not saying I can agree, you know,
I mean, if we are being visited by whoever, why is it?
Why would it be just you know, nineteen forty seven. And I
did see in your book that you did have some earlier you know, very
early accounts of your explanation of I guess you know, people manifesting back in
the sixteen eighties in Africa and other places like that. Now, what you
what the people in eighteen ninety seven were describing were craft that were just a
step ahead of the technology of eighteen ninety seven, That there were sort of
like the sort of like super derigibles. Yeah, and yet they and yet
they were having, as far as we can tell, real experiences there.
Jerry Clark did had a really fascinating piece, I think it was in the
International UFO Reporter about a rabbi when Beaumont, Texas, who saw a landed,
the airship landed, met in the pilot and shook hands with them.
And I found myself asking why would a rabbi be going out to a farm
to interview the pilot of an airship? And I could only give I mean,
Jerry proved quite conclusively. I think that this rabbi actually existed. Nobody
made him up, although I don't know what his story, the story that
he himself told, actually was, but that the way I understood it is
that he was from Germany in Beaumont. A rabbi in Beaumont, Texas in
the eighteen nineties would have been doubly alien as a Jew and as a foreigner,
But by shaking hands with the pilot of the airship, he became part
of the American story of invention and innovation, which reached what we talked with.
This brings us back to what we talked about right in the break beforehand,
that reached one of its high points not far from where I live in
Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, a couple of decades later, with the right
brothers. Okay, so I think we're dealing with stories that have that that
double aspect of being a creation called a legendary creation of the time and at
the same time come across as authentic experiences of the people who encounter them.
And Jacques tried to maintain this by supposing there was some sort of other world,
not outer space, but that intersected with ours and that mirrored ours.
I would go for a more strictly psychological explanation that this is something that comes
from inside us, and the nature of the experience has a quality that I
don't fully understand. But there's no question that that Jacques was one of the
pioneers. If you wanted to draw a line from where I've been, it
would start with Carl Yone and run through Jacques Valet. While those are certainly
two pretty big names, we have Chris on the line from Houston. Welcome
to the show, Chris, Hi Martin, that's called before. I'm one
of the people that's I don't know if angry as the word, but irritated
that your guests, right, So I think what I'm hearing, I understand
completely what you're saying, Martin about your reservations about this reasoning. I don't
understand this reasoning. Your reasonings are and it look it seems to me that
it's almost like a form of what's it called paradolia where you see faces and
clouds, or like a cargo cult or you you know, you mart you
mentioned the panda thing, but you know, people seeing throughout history and in
anthropological terms, seeing creatures that they described as monsters who turned that turned out
to be ordinary creatures in the wild they just had never seen before. So
all of this seems to be putting the need for an explanation ahead of the
observation of the experience and letting an intellectualized description of a psychological effect drive all
interpretations of data, and it seems backwards to logic and backwards to analysis and
observation. I did miss the first half of the show, so I don't
know if you discussed the tic TACs with him, but I would if you
haven't, or even if you have it, you might just revisit that the
other And then I have, as I've described to you before, my own
sightings. I've had several sightings. And if you're telling me that things that
I've seen are a religious experience or a psychological manifestation, I'm sorry, that's
just bonkers. And you have no evidence of that. Your explanations are more
far fetched than the observations of these crafts. Yeah, and I do you
a graded justice by telling you that you didn't see what you thought you saw.
You don't have a right to tell me that, and I an obligation
to leave it. I do have a right. It's an unprofessional and unethical
for you to say that to me. I don't think so. I absolutely
do not believe it. I absolutely trust my experience. You're killing everyone who's
had an one of these experiences that they must not trust their their judgment and
their observation. And I absolutely reject that categorically. Yes, and I can
see why you do. What does you think of those I'm going to hang
up and take it from there, all right, Hey, thanks, thanks
for the call, Chris. Okay, anything you'd like to add We have
another caller. Yeah, yeah, that. I think Chris has every right
to be angry at what I'm saying, just as I've had every right to
say it. I think back to one thing that one person who influenced me
a great deal, who I mentioned in my book, who was a librarian
in western North Carolina, and she told me about the UFO aliens that she
saw through the windows of her house, standing on her lawn, and she
said to me, I know they weren't really there, but I did see
them. I believe both parts of her statement, and my project is to
understand how both parts can be true. Chris, let us work together to
try to explore what it may have meant to you what you saw. All
right, he's up, he's no longer on the line. But um,
all right, Uh, well, we have another phone call coming into but
we have I don't know what your real name is. What's your your real
first name? And I know you're not calling from Zeter Reticulae. We have
here. Line's over here, Greg, Hi, welcome to the show.
You have a question for our guests. Yeah, um, well, it's
kind of like a statement. I just know you have a career in theology.
I mean it's all theology. So it looks to me like you only
see theology, like for instance, John Lennon and The Nakedness. It's kind
of a stretch to get that into a theology theological area. But here we
go. Yeah, you know that, you know the thing that when the
only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like and that's what
it appears to me that's possible. I'm gonna say, let's try using that
hammer and act as if UFOs are a nail and see what we come up
with. Now, I hope you will read my book. I don't necessarily
say I hope you'll buy it, although obviously I do, but there are
ways to read books without buying them. I think the libraries are going to
open sooner or later, and I hope you will read it and see whether
you think that my hammer has worked fairly well on the nails. On a
belief system, though, and a lot of us are looking at nuts and
bolts, like, for instance, the radar on those ships. You're not
going to pull that stuff. And there was the brand new stuff on the
F eighteens. These weren't all the F eighteens. This was the new stuff.
They're right of the box, and they don't just show nothing. And
when you got the shift and the planes showing something that the pilots can see,
and they're getting it on infrared, it's not somebody's imagination. And yet
radar has been fooled many times. Do you have what's called the anomalous propagation,
Well, that's that's true, but that's like mostly all the radar and
like top of the radar, if you have birds flying around, that will
do it. But whether dop the radar that is. But I think there's
a lot going on here that you're just not looking at because it's not what
you particularly want to look at, is my opinion. Yeah, and that's
that's a legitimate criticism. But I would ask, are all are there things
that the people who advocate for the et hypothesis are not looking at? Such
as the descriptions that of the occupants tend to be conditioned by what people what
people expect to see. Well, a lot of people are Well, you
were saying about whit Wey Strieber's book, but that description has been around long
before that, in the nineteen eighties version of Whitley Strieber, who was pretty
sharp, and he did a lot of research into what things it could possibly
be besides what he thought it was, and he went a long way before
he even decided he thought that's what That was a lot of a lot of
searching. Yeah, Whitley Streeper is an extraordinarily intelligent and above all an extraordinarily
self aware man. And it's worth noting that He never said anywhere that he
was being visited by aliens. He just called them the visitors. That's true.
But it could be interdimensional. That's a popular one. It could be
something we don't even understand. Possible. It's possible, But then then it
stops when you say that, it loses its power as an explanation. Now,
Strieber's image. I talk a lot about Strieber in my book, and
Strieber speaks of them as having the huge, staring eyes of the old gods.
And I think he's right on target there, And this takes it back
to me. I'm not exactly a student of theol a scholar of theology,
but of religion. It's not quite the same thing. But yeah, I
do look for religious phenomena, and Strieber saw what he was experiencing as a
religious phenomena. I'm going to have to cut the ship. I'm gonna have
to cut the call. I'm sorry, we have two other people waiting,
but thanks, thanks very much. All right, just real quickly, one
thing I thought of Travis Wall describes the same type of eyes nineteen seventy five.
Um, so I don't know. That's just one other thought, but
I want to catch this call. We have two more callers. We have
Ward from Fort Myers. Welcome to the show. We have to make a
quick ward. Sure enough, Roby, I must big followed you that I
actually just walked up towards the end of your show. But I start heard
the gentleman is saying that. And I'm not mistaken that the visitors or alliance
or whatever you want to calm are more a figment of our on and imagination,
like we we create these things. Is that and I correct to saying
that? Or was I one twenty off? No, you're right, You're
right on on target. You're right on target. Only strip that of any
disparaging connotations that'd say there's something that comes from inside us, that is from
within from within it. Well, I have I disagree with you. I
had to resinct it because I have videos and film of roxial lines and I'm
not talking about, oh, you can't tell what it is or whatever it
is. They've left me notes and these things are real entities and their knowledge
of figuring out my imagination. For the first part, I thought I was
having prote guist activity. There's a lot of pot the guys that they've been
going on in my home, so I thought I had a ghost, and
then I found out on my form my videos that it wasn't a ghost.
There was it was uh, whatever you want to call them. I know
where they're from. I can't tell you myself, but it's not from my
imagination. Also, not only do I see them, because my mother's season
and my daughter's season. So it's pretty hard not at the same time,
three different people see things at three different times and now, and this all
started happening in twenty twelve. My mother is ninety and my dad is twenty
six, and none of us before twenty twelve had ever seen any of this
kind of stuff. So it's really odd at it at um in the year
twenty twelve that all of us would start fishing of these things and start imagining
its amount of fest Yeah, I mean you're described thinking of people like the
beings, like the class at Grays that you saw. Well, actually,
I've only seen Grays a couple of times. I have all different guards,
all different guards, and Ward, I'm sorry, I gonna have to cut
the short. We're right at the end of the show here. I gotta
take a call real quickly. Thank you very much. All right, just
uh, we have Steve. I think you've called before from Washington. Steve,
we only got a minute and a half. Okay, I can be
quicker, I can let it go. No, no, go ahead.
Are you ready for me? They're up? You're up? Yep? Oh
okay. My question is is there any legitimate purpose to this? Ar you
say that these things are a delusion closer to a delusion. I just want
to know. Do you see these as having some legitimate purpose? Absolutely?
Absolutely. It seems to me that most basically what these are is our way
of dealing with our mortality. Dost thou art and too, dost shalt thou
return. I would not use the word delusion about them. They're real in
a psychic sense. Okay, so they serve a purpose? Yes, yes,
well that's an interesting twist. I wish we had more time to discuss
that. Thanks for the call, Steve, Thank you. Yeah, I
wish we had more time to discuss that, but we are at the end
of the show, so real quickly again. The title of your book,
Intimate Alien, The Hidden Story of the UFO. Wow, that's all I
gotta say is wow. Thanks so much, David, and and we'll talk
soon, take care. Thank you so much for having me. All Right,
Okay, all right everyone, So that's that's it for the show.
Next week we have Chris Styles from Shag Harbor. He was the lead investigator
in Shag Harbor. He's going to be on next week and thanks so much.
Everyone. Remember to keep your eyes to the sky to