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Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and

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we have another great one for you
this evening. Let's see, well,

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I consider this place to go if
you want to escape reality, not really

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reality, but I guess we'll say
escape the news at least for a little

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while here. Well tonight, first
of all, we have a guest from

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His name is Jack from Canada,
and he posted his childhood UFO story on

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my website. And I should mention
that I have an anonymous form there on

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podcast ufo dot com then anyone can
fill out and if they want to remain

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anonymous. Actually he reached out to
me, so he didn't remain anonymous in

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particular. But after I read his
story, I said, you know,

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this is really a good enough story. I actually want to hear him talk

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about it. So I'm bringing him
on for the first a few minutes.

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Well, he's going to talk about
his sighting. Then after that we have

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after Jacques, we have our main
guest, David Halipern, and he was

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on this show a while ago,
quite a few years ago, I think,

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and he was back in nineteen sixties
a teenage UFO investigator. He later

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became a Professor of Religious Studies.
His specialty religious Traditions of Heavenly Assent,

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and he was at the University of
North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And when

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he retired he started writing, and
back in twenty eleven he wrote Journal of

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a UFO Investigator and now he's back
to talk about his latest book, Intimate

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Alien, The Hidden Story of the
UFO. Well, I am grateful for

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all of you who support the show, and I couldn't do that with I

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couldn't do this without you, actually, and we're over at Patreon and that

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link is on our website podcast UFO
dot Com and our blog this week by

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Charles lear Is called when UFOs were
sue coupe volunteire and that has to do

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that was my poor attempt at French. This has to do with early UFO

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reports in American at France, and
without further ado, I'm bringing on Shock.

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Welcome to the show. Jacques,
Hi, how are you doing?

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Martin doing well? Thank you and
thanks so much for posting. Now you're

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you're in Canada and U can you
just go ahead and I want to hear

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your story, the one you wrote
just from your own words, and how

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old were you and all that and
where was it, Where were you located?

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Well, I was about tween seventy
five and seventy eight seventy nine,

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so I was probably about six seven
UM, so a long time ago,

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but it's something that I've never forgotten. Northern somewhat northern Ontario here in Canada,

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just in the area of North Bay, and we I grew up in

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a kind of rural property. We
had a great spot you would see moose,

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deer, bear, It was all
over us and took place. It's

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probably late August, and I remember
because it was really really warm and we

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didn't have air conditioning. All our
windows were open. It was around six

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thirty in the evening, and we
had somewhat of a little tradition. After

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supper, we'd sit in the living
room and watch a show. It might

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have been mash or something, but
so we were all sitting in the living

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room and my father was an avid
hunter, and he was one of these

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people that really couldn't sit still too
much. He'd always kind of he'd be

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looking outside. He'd be looking in
the windows outside and looking for wildlife,

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because there's always wildlife. And often
when we were sitting around watching a show,

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my dad would pipe up and say, hey, guys, look,

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and we'd all get up and took
a peek. And sometimes there was a

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bear, sometimes deer, and once
in a while some moose. So it

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wasn't it was common for him to
pipe up, and he'd watched the show,

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but he wasn't, you know,
he wasn't super concentrated on it.

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He'd be looking at his side.
And this one time he says, oh,

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my god, what is that something
of that effect, and the way

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he said it, it was different
than you know, when it was a

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moose or a deer. And I
remember jumping up and running to the picture

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window. And it was a small
house, so we were in the living

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room and right next my dad was
sitting in his chair in the corner,

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and the picture window was to his
right, and we were in front of

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him. So we ran up and
there was my mother and my brother and

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I and I ran to the window, oh, looking scanning the grounds for

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a deer or a bear or whatever. And I didn't see anything, and

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I'm looking around and then I just
noticed that everybody was looking up in the

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sky. And I looked up and
I couldn't believe it. So just to

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kind of give you perspective of what
I saw. About a hundred feet in

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front of our house there was this
great eastern white pine, beautiful tree,

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probably about seventy feet tall, and
over top of it was a triangle.

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It was massive, it was black. I still get goosebumps when I think

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about it. But it was so
big. I remember afterwards talking to my

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dad and he mentioned that, you
know, the size was probably about three

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quarters to a kilometer long, which
not quite sure what it is. Half

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a mile I think about half a
mile, half a mile, And I

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mean this thing was massive. When
you looked up at the sky, that's

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all you saw. It was.
It wasn't directly over the house, but

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it was directly over the pine tree, and it just went What time of

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night was I mean, was there
daylight? No, it was It was

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about six thirty in the evening.
And you know how in August, late

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August you got that nice golden sun
warm, There wasn't a breeze, it

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was a perfect night. The sky
was blue, no clouds whatsoever. And

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this thing is hanging there. And
actually when we spoke Martin about having me

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on the podcast, I grabbed some
markers my daughter's markers, and I drew

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something just to kind of give you
an impression of what to look like.

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And this is what I got.
M Wow, pretty big. Hey,

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that's so there's the's not a bad
rendering. Oh it was. Yeah.

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Here, let me let me do
it. Let me do this so people

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can see a little better. There
you go, yeah, there you go.

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Um, and there's a great eastern
white pine in front. Now this

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doesn't do just it was bigger than
that. I just couldn't get it up

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this standard sized piece of paper.
Sure and h so there it is.

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There it is saying it's up in
it's it's up in the sky. And

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immediately my father walks over to we
have a front door. And it was

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kind of strange because the front door
didn't lead to anywhere. It kind of

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dropped off. We were in a
raised bungalow and it dropped off to the

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ground, which was about six feet
below. My father hadn't built the deck

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at the time, and as he
was walking over the door, he m,

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he just he mentioned to one of
the kids. My brother and I

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turned the TV off, and we
did and it was silent. He opened

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the door and he kind of stood
in the in the doorway kind of been

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the frame looking up, and my
mum kind of talked talk in right next

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to him. Instantly, my brother
and I we went into these little windows,

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so below picture windows. I don't
know if you remember this, Martin,

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but they might still exist. But
there was these little windows below that

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you could slide open, and there
was a screen, and my brother and

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I knew exactly how how easy it
was to pop the screens out, and

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we each grabbed an opening and popped
the screens out and stuck our heads out.

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I was basically up to my waist
out of the window and looking up.

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What I found absolutely strange was that
there was virtually no sound. There

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was maybe a bit of a hissing
sound, but there was nothing. There

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wasn't even birds a chirp, and
everything was was quiet. There wasn't traffic,

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nothing was And we're staring up at
this thing. And my brother and

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I were looking at each other thinking
what is this. This is ridiculous,

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And we're watching for for you know, thirty forty seconds, and the telephone

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rings and my mother, you know, she went over and picked up the

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phone, and my dad's like just
staring and I heard my mom say,

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yeah, just a second, I'll
get him. And then she calls over

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to my dad, can you take
the phone? And my dad was annoyed.

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Oh my goodness, he wanted to
stare at this, at this thing,

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and he walked over. He grabbed
the phone and he said yeah.

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And the person on the other end, which I found out afterwards was a

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neighbor, said she told him there's
this huge thing over top of our house.

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And but what I could hear wasn't
that. I couldn't hear that.

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We found that afterwards. But my
dad was like, yeah, yeah,

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I see it as well. I
have no idea what it is. I

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gotta go buy it. And he
hangs up the phone and he walks over

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to the back to the door.
And I'll tell you what she said to

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him a little later. But so
now he's back at the doorway and then

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he realizes, Wow, somebody get
me my binoculars, and so he calls

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out to one of us and I
forget if it was my brother I but

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somebody grabbed the binoculars brought it.
Actually I think it was it was me

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because I gave him the binoculars.
And I remember standing there thinking, you

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know, am I going to get
a turn, and he's just looking up

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at it, and he's taking his
time. So I just went back to

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my little window, stuck my head
out and kept watching. And then he's

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watching it for a bit and I
remember him saying to my mom, you

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gotta watch it. You gotta look
at this. Take the binoculars. Take

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a look. Now, this triangle
kind of in the center of it,

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there was it looked like it looked
like these little lights in a circler.

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But you could tell that there was
like a protrusion coming down. I don't

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know how big. But the reason
I say that is because it was like

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the lights went into a semicircle,
so I couldn't see the other side,

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so I estimated I figured that it
was it was a protrusion. My dad

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says, take a look at the
lights, and my mom grabs him an

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octypers and she's like, oh,
my goodness, is that And then she

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says it's that, and she's about
to finish her sentence, and my dad

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stops her and says, yes,
and I And by that time I had

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come out of the window and I
was looking at them, and I was

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looking at their eyes and thinking I
was going to get a turn next,

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and my dad's eyes were this big
and he said yes, and the way

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he stopped her was kind of like, that's enough. We don't need to

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say anything. And I was like, you know, can I have my

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turn? And my mom looked again, and then he said can I.

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He asked her, can I have
the binoculars back? And he grabbed the

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binoculars and he kept looking, and
at that point we noticed that just up

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the road, not up the road, but just next to us, kind

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of at a forty five degree angle
from the front of our house what my

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parents used to live there. And
my aunt was standing on the front porch

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and she was waving at us,
and we noticed her and she's looking at

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us and she's going she's doing this
sign like what is it? You see

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this? And we're like, yeah, we see it. We have no

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idea what it is, and we
just we just kept watching it, and

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all of a sudden, it started
moving, and everybody immediately said, wow,

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it's moving. And it moved for
a bit, and about a length

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of the craft it moved, and
by the time it got to um let's

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say, three quarters of a kilometer
that it had had pushed, we could

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just see the back end of it. It just disappeared. It moved so

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quickly. Um, it was gone
in the blink of a of an eye.

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Do you think it moved or do
you think it just stood there?

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Yeah, you know what. I
thought about this a lot. And UM,

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And actually I spoke to my father
when we were adults, when I

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was an adult about it. But
I remember seeing a slight acceleration and speed

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and then it was gone. But
it was so quick and I had never

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seen anything move like that before.
Um, But it was gone and it

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went. It was it was north. It went north from there and actually,

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um, North Bay, which was
north from where I lived. Um,

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it had a place that was it's
called the say she's connected to Norad.

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It's command center that was interlict somehow, But that's the direction it went.

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Wow. We were speechless. We
all kind of just kept staring at

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the sky, wondering if there'd be
anything else. We were looking to the

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opposite direction see if there was maybe
more coming, and there wasn't anything.

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We were looking at each other wonder
what was that. And we ended up

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at that point going outside. And
I think in my when I wrote on

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your site and I recounted the story. I didn't remember this part, but

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I've been really thinking about the details, and I remember we left the house

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and we went to go see my
aunt, just to talk to her.

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And I remember walking over to my
aunt and she looked at us and she

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was wonderful with kids. She looked
at us and her eyes were big.

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She had a big smash, goes, did you see that? That was

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wonderful? It was so big,
and we were asking what do you think

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it was? She says, I
don't know, maybe visitors from somewhere else.

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And we were so excited. And
my dad started talking to his sister

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and she said. He asked her, did you see the lights? And

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she said, yeah, I saw
it. It was in the center,

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she said. He said to her, we looked at it with the binoculars,

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and then they started, you know, whispering, and I heard a

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couple of little things, but I
couldn't quite make it out, but I

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heard it was like people. I
heard like there were people. I asked,

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what was it, Dad, and
he said, don't worry about it.

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We'll talk about it later. So
we chatted a little bit with my

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aunt and then we went back home
and we sat around the kitchen table,

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and I remember my dad getting himself
a beer, lighting himself a cigarette and

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thinking this is incredible. And you
know, my other and I were just

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asking questions like what was it?
What wasn't my dad's like, I have

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no idea what it was, you
know, like it's definitely not man made.

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The thing was huge. It just
hovered, it did move. So

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we asked my mom what did you
see? What was it? And finally

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00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:21,839
she said, you know what,
I looked at the knock. I looked

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at the lights. It seemed it
wasn't lights at all. It was it

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looked like windows or like windows.
Oh my goodness, she said, it

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00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:38,480
looked like there were people looking at
us. There was like movement or you

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know, something that made her think
that it was it was something alive that

211
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,839
was looking back at us. Well, I'm like, what six look,

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00:17:49,839 --> 00:17:53,079
I'm freaking out here. I'm thinking
to myself, oh my goodness, what

213
00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:57,319
what do you talk about? There's
like aliens? And my mom said,

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00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,400
I don't know it was you know, this is what I saw and I

215
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:06,359
could see movement, um and and
that was it. And then so my

216
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,799
brother started talking and saying, oh, it's it's it's definitely aliens. And

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he takes off and he goes into
his bedroom and he comes back and he

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liked to read a lot, and
he had he had these magazines, few

219
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magazines, and there were pictures of
you know, drawings of witness accounts or

220
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abductees of aliens. And he shows
me, because that's probably what you saw,

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and he shows it to my mom. Is that what you saw?

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And my mom said, I couldn't. I couldn't see that that much detail.

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I could just see something moving.
So I'm looking at it. Oh,

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00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:45,920
my goodness, is this is this
what's going on? Is this what

225
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,720
was in there? So we talked
and it went on. The evening kind

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of dragged on a little bit,
and the night kind of came to the

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sun set and things got dark and
across my dad was across from me,

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and right behind him was a window
facing south, and you know how you

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get that reflection because it was light
inside the house, you could you could

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see your reflection. Well, I
started seeing eyes staring back at me,

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and I was startled, and I
remembered jumping on my mom and going and

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00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,359
kind of hiding my my my sight
of Lyne from the window behind my my

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00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,200
father kind of and my mom's like, what's the matter. I'm seeing eyes?

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00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:38,759
There's an alien out there, And
of course it was probably my imagination,

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and you know, my brothers,
you know, he's saying, you

236
00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,319
don't worry about it. You know
it's not that you know, m you

237
00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:51,119
didn't see anything. And so we
talked a little bit about it some more,

238
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,319
and finally it was time for bed, and you think I was going

239
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,680
to go to bed. There was
no way I was going to go to

240
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bed. And my parents got,
you know, somewhat ritaate, and they

241
00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:03,279
said, you got to go to
bed. So I remember walking over to

242
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:08,079
my bedroom and peeking inside my bedroom
and my curtains were open, and of

243
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,079
course it's like a mirror again.
I see my face, but then I

244
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,079
see eyes again. Oh my goodness, I screamed, and I run back

245
00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,720
to my mom. I'm like,
you have to you have to go.

246
00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:22,400
I'm not going to bed unless you
shut those curtains, and Moms like,

247
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,039
you're being ridiculous, and my brother
starts laughing at me. So I begged

248
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her, and finally she went in
and she shut the windows, and I

249
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:40,240
got ready for bed and jumped into
bed and I remember laying in bed and

250
00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:45,039
my parents had turned the light on
outside the porch light in the back,

251
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,920
and just below the curtains, I
could see light from the window and for

252
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,440
whatever reason, you know, the
window was open, so my curtains were

253
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,839
moving a little bit, and of
course it made the light move a bit.

254
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,079
I was losing it. I'd get
an need the covers. I was

255
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:06,559
so terrified, really traumatized you.
Oh my goodness, it was crazy.

256
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:15,119
And for a couple months it was
really strange because I would when it got

257
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,319
dark out and now all the windows
are now mirrors reflecting what was inside,

258
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I would I would run and let's
say I was going into the living room.

259
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,480
I would run into the living room
and kind of jum dive onto the

260
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,160
couch and try to kind of hide
myself from from the window. But there

261
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,279
was no place you could hide.
There was always a window in sight.

262
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,319
But I did this for months,
and my parents thought I was I was

263
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,559
crazy, and my brother of course
laughed at me. And but you know

264
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:49,480
what, to this day, I
still get startled when I walk into the

265
00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:52,640
room and I just I get a
h you know, when it's night out,

266
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,640
and I got that reflection. I
just get that little feeling inside me

267
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,519
like, oh my goodness. Okay, nobody's out there, nobody's watching me.

268
00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:03,720
It's good. Yeah. Well,
we ran a bit long. There

269
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:07,519
was something I forgot to mention it. Yeah, but so I'm sorry,

270
00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:08,480
I'm gonna have to wrap this up
a little bit. But go ahead,

271
00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:12,480
go ahead, Okay. I was
just gonna say when we were all sitting

272
00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:17,039
around and talking after the incident,
I told my dad, Wow, I

273
00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:21,400
can't wait to tell my my friends
at school. At school was just around

274
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,200
the corner, and I remember the
first day of school and my dad told

275
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,119
me says, don't you dare You're
gonna be laughed at. You're gonna be

276
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,319
called crazy. Wow. What did
I do? I told my friends one

277
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,519
when it was story time in the
library and the librarian told me, she

278
00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:37,599
says, you know, you saw
a weather balloon. I looked at her

279
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:38,880
like, are you kidding me?
I was not a weather balloon. She

280
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,559
says, it was a weather balloon
and she dismissed it. That was it.

281
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,119
Yeah. So as far as from
that point on, did you ever

282
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,279
talk about it or so? Yeah, we talked about it on and off

283
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:52,799
for the you know, the next
couple of months and then we forgot about

284
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:56,680
it and my mom. You know, when I was an adult, I

285
00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:02,480
never spoke about it to my mom
for some reason. I don't know why.

286
00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:04,480
But my dad before he died.
The year before he died, I

287
00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:08,519
remember we sat down and we had
a couple of drinks and I asked them.

288
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:11,599
I said, you know, Dad, I need to ask you a

289
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,559
question. And he pretty much finished
my sentence. He says, it's about

290
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:18,759
that triangle we saw, And I
said yeah, And I mean you could

291
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:26,039
see the stress. You know,
there wasn't There isn't a day that have

292
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,160
not thought about that thing. He
says, I have no idea what it

293
00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:34,319
was, but I wish it would
come back. And that's that's pretty much

294
00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:40,480
it. Since then, I've had
little sightings, but nothing. Yeah,

295
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,720
kind of some things in the sky
at night, but nothing like this.

296
00:23:42,319 --> 00:23:48,160
This was incredibly Yeah. Did he
ever say what he saw in the binocularcy?

297
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,160
Did he spell it out? Yeah? He described it. He said

298
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,240
that he saw he couldn't quite see
like the details of a face or anything

299
00:23:55,279 --> 00:24:00,440
like that, but he could see
movement, so you know whatever that means,

300
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,759
Like he was trying to describe it, he could see it looked like

301
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,400
and it would stop and then there'd
be a little bit of movement and they

302
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,640
would stop again, and he they
assumed it was somebody something looking back at

303
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,559
us, but but he was you
know, I asked him described the event

304
00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:21,279
because I didn't want to kind of
contaminate his memory or mine, I guess,

305
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,359
and I asked him to recount it. And it was pretty much exactly

306
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,960
what I what I told you,
except I think it was the you know,

307
00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:33,759
the time frame. I had originally
thought it was mid August, but

308
00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:36,880
he said, no, no,
it was closer to the end of August.

309
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,960
He said, don't you remember you
went to school like like the falling

310
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,480
Monday or Tuesday or something like that, So it was it was pretty much

311
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:48,119
exact. Well yeah, well well
we actually made it right up to the

312
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,599
break here. So okay, all
right, so thanks so much. That

313
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,680
was really great. Totally appreciate it, no problem, and anyone can see

314
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,079
that story right on the website podcast
THROUGHFO dot com under UFO Sightings. You

315
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,119
take care, Jacques, thanks for
agreeing to come on. You two take

316
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,119
care all right. All right,
everyone, so we are going into the

317
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:15,240
break right now. This is a
I guess you would call this a shameless

318
00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:19,359
plug for my artwork. So I
live up and I live up in Maine,

319
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,920
and I just started to do some
local scenes. I live right on

320
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,240
the coast here at Maine. So
this is the latest of the paintings that

321
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:33,759
I've done. I've also done a
lot of different, uh different types of

322
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:37,319
paintings over the years, and anyone
can check out the paintings over at This

323
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,920
is a Royal borealis here. Actually
this painting was an accident how that came

324
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,000
out like that, and so I
went with it. And also I do

325
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,480
abstract work and that's Martin Willis art
dot Com. So check that out.

326
00:25:53,680 --> 00:26:00,400
If anyone sees anything over there that
they sort of fancy, all you have

327
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,559
to do is use the code UFO
and you get fifty percent off. Now,

328
00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:07,319
I also want to say this too, because I like to get my

329
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,000
artwork out there so I can keep
painting. If anyone sees something that they

330
00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:18,200
really really like and they're interested in
it, contact me, we'll work something

331
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,200
out. Again, I like to
get the paintings out there. So I

332
00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:26,240
am going to this is during the
break. Actually, I'm going to bring

333
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:30,599
my guest on early. I'm going
to have to introduce him twice. It's

334
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,039
only because the way this um the
sighting kind of ran over the time that

335
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,680
I thought it would, So I'm
bringing bringing him back in now. And

336
00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:47,920
so David, welcome to the show. I am delighted to be here.

337
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,640
Mark. Thank you. I'm going
to have to introduce you a second time

338
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:56,400
because we're during the break right now. Yeah, and I also have to

339
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:02,079
bring in KGr A radio so they
can tell us when when we go back.

340
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,640
So anyway, thanks so much for
agreeing to come back. So I

341
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,880
guess what I'll do. David's we
have a couple of minutes left, probably

342
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,599
two minutes or so left to this
break. Where where are you located?

343
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,519
You're in h I am in Durham, North Carolina, during North Carolina.

344
00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:25,319
And while have you been there a
long time? Oh? I've been in

345
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:32,160
North Carolina now I think forty four
years. Yeah, that's that's pretty long

346
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,279
y Yeah. Now is the area
known for any UFO sightings? Not that

347
00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:44,279
I know of. Ah. I
wish I could tell you that we that

348
00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:47,799
that's one of our claims to fame, but I don't think it is.

349
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,000
I see we're getting a little bit
of noise. It might be from the

350
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,000
cable on your mic. If you
want to pull that around front. A

351
00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:02,720
lot of times the cables will rub
and make noises. So that's better.

352
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:06,400
Now I'm still hearing a little bit
of it. It's like a when you

353
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,440
move this kind of a little bit
of a noise. Maybe you can maybe

354
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:15,759
it'll it'll settle down. But but
you're also first in flight there, that's

355
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,319
true. Yeah, we will wear
the right brothers for the first time.

356
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:27,240
Flew a heavier than aircraft that ended
up higher that it started. Yeah,

357
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:33,960
only a few feet, but those
few feet were e buck making. Yes,

358
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,039
that's right. Yeah, you're gonna
have to work a little bit on

359
00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:38,880
that cable. Why don't you put
the cable around the back of you.

360
00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:45,039
Maybe that will change things. Maybe
let me try unplugging and unplugging it again.

361
00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:51,079
No, no, that's not it. How's this still hearing the noise?

362
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:55,119
It's funny we didn't hear it during
the sound test. Should I should

363
00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:59,119
I try it without the h I
think we may have to do that.

364
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:07,440
I think we may have to do
that. Is that unplugged? Now it's

365
00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:11,759
unplugged, all right, gentlemen,
We are coming back in five seconds.

366
00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:18,839
All right, sounds good stand by
in three two one go. All right,

367
00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:23,799
we are back and my guest is
David Halpern. I'm this second time.

368
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,640
I'm welcome, welcoming you. Welcome
to the show, David. I'm

369
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,839
delighted to be here. Martin.
Thank you so much for having me.

370
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:34,960
Yes, and you have a book, this your second book, but i'd

371
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:41,759
like to talk to you about you
were actually a UFO researcher in your teens

372
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,240
and along with Jerome Clark, which
is oh yes, yes, a funny

373
00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:52,680
story about Jerome. Back when I
wasn't doing these shows live, I was

374
00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:59,279
pre recording. Jerome was on my
schedule to come on my show, and

375
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,759
so I got him on Skype and
I started recording, and so he I

376
00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:07,240
started in the conversation. He goes, you haven't read any of my books,

377
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,920
and I said, uh no,
heaven't. He goes, well,

378
00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:18,480
this interview is over then, and
that was as far as I got with

379
00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:21,079
him, and he said, if
you want to he goes, if you

380
00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:23,319
want to read one of my books, then then schedule it and I'll be

381
00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:30,400
back. So anyway, it didn't
go well, Yeah, he's a he's

382
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,480
an extraordinary man. I know he
is. And he's a musician, and

383
00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:38,880
he's a there's a yeah, there's
a lot going on with Jerome and he's

384
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:44,759
one of the best researchers out there, been at it so long well when

385
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,200
he was when I was fifteen and
he was sixteen, we used to exchange

386
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:56,759
ten and twenty page letters about you
really Wow. We go back so far

387
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,720
wow. And so I know that
was a long time ago, But how

388
00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:07,279
did you get interested in the topic
so young? I was twelve going on

389
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,960
thirteen, and a friend of mine
and I decided to write an extra credit

390
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:18,799
paper for science and I think we
were going to do it on life on

391
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:26,519
other planets, and we decided we'd
we're going to have a chapter on flying

392
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:32,160
saucers. Back then, flying saucers
was the more common name for them.

393
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:40,480
This was in the fall of nineteen
sixty and we bicycled to the public library

394
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,519
of Levittown, Pennsylvania, and there
were three books on flying saucers there.

395
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,119
One was by Carl Jung, The
Flying Saucers a Modern Myth of things seen

396
00:31:53,200 --> 00:32:00,480
in the skies, and a second
was Gray Barker. They knew too much

397
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:07,960
about flying saucers, so I borrowed
the book, took it home and began

398
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:15,519
reading it, and pretty soon I
was so scared I wanted to hide under

399
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:23,480
my bed. I like the last
guest. There's an extraordinary story. By

400
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:30,920
the way, Yes, it was. Yeah, that that they if you're

401
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:38,599
listen, if your viewers have not
read they knew too much about flying saucers,

402
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,880
they have a rare treat in store
for them. It's an extraordinary book.

403
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:51,799
And that's the book that created what
I will call the myth of the

404
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:58,799
three Men in Black are more generally
the men in Black that finally made it

405
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:07,240
to Hollywood's Greens forty years later,
But that was the central theme of Barker's

406
00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:13,960
book, that there are men in
black who visit you if you've found out

407
00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:24,240
too much about flying saucers and terrorize
you into silence. I read that book

408
00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:36,359
and instantly I was persuaded by it, and I saw it as my mission,

409
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:45,079
at age almost thirteen, to follow
in the footsteps of the men whom

410
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:55,160
Barker described in the book and unravel
what Barker called the secret of the elusive

411
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:06,400
discs. That was the getting Now
when was that book published nineteen fifty six?

412
00:34:07,319 --> 00:34:10,159
Oh wow, Okay, now I
gotta tell you we're getting a little

413
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:15,000
feedback from me. You're gonna have
to turn your volume down on your speakers

414
00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:17,239
just a little bit. There,
let's do that. Okay, you want

415
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,719
to still be able to hear me. It sounds like it's okay, yep,

416
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:30,320
thank you. So nineteen fifty six
and wow? And is that book?

417
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,199
That book's long out of print,
but you can probably find it.

418
00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:38,559
No, it's it's been reissued in
paperback. I see, So I think

419
00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:44,840
anybody who wants it can get hold
of it. Uh huh. And so

420
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,800
you went, you dug right in
at a very very young age. And

421
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:57,400
how long did that last? I'm
got my first answer is going to be

422
00:34:57,519 --> 00:35:07,760
until I went to college, But
there are two more accurate answers. One

423
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:15,320
answer is until my mother died,
which was a year before I went to

424
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:23,000
college, and that, to me
was the pivotal event in my early uphology.

425
00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:28,039
And we can talk more about that
why that should have been so.

426
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,440
The other answer, which is an
even truer answer, is that it's lasted

427
00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:45,119
until this moment. That the fascination
that UFOs have for me has never faded,

428
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:58,760
even though I no longer believe that
they objectively exist as physical machines as

429
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:05,199
and I think you boke of this
in your introduction that I went to college.

430
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:13,280
I majored in classical and Semitic languages. I focused eventually on the Bible

431
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:23,880
and on early religious traditions, particularly
Jewish, and the ones that most attracted

432
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:31,920
me were traditions of heavenly ascent and
other worldly journeys. The part of the

433
00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:39,360
Bible that I kept going back to
was the Book of Ezekiel, and Ezekiel

434
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:46,400
begins his book with a vision of
wheels. It's part of a much part

435
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:52,480
of a larger vision, but the
wheels are there. Many have said their

436
00:36:52,719 --> 00:37:00,280
UFOs, and I think those people
are right. I think Ezekiel's wheels were

437
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:08,360
fos. I just don't think UFOs
are spaceships. Well, you know,

438
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,480
I'm going to have to ask you
what you think they are right off the

439
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:19,360
bat here we are very early in
the show here. But and do you

440
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,760
think that it could still be part
of the equation or do you think just

441
00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:29,960
absolutely no, you don't think there
are anything to do with extraterrestrial I don't

442
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,719
think so. I don't think so. I think we say they're extraterrestrial because

443
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:45,800
we intuitively see them as being alien
and the only model we have for alieness

444
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:52,800
is to say extraterrestrial. But to
me, they are visitors not from outer

445
00:37:53,000 --> 00:38:04,559
space, but from inner space inside
us, and we have inside us enough

446
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:13,320
alieness to fill a universe. Okay, well, let's just bring back the

447
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:19,079
topic of our guest that was just
on prior to you shock. Yes,

448
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,480
lots of witnesses there. How could
the same thing manifest in multiple witnesses?

449
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:34,039
I don't know. And there is
the further complication that we're dealing with memories

450
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,480
and we don't know how that affected
us and how that affected it. But

451
00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:45,800
I can say that there are cases, and they're often quite baffling, in

452
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:53,639
which multiple witnesses see things that could
not have happened. And I will give

453
00:38:53,679 --> 00:39:00,920
you the example the miracle of the
Sun at Fatima, Portugal in October nineteen

454
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:08,639
seventeen, in which a crowd that
some have estimated as seventy thousand saw the

455
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:17,199
Sun fall to the Earth. How
did that happen? I don't know.

456
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:23,920
The one thing I am perfectly sure
of is that the Sun cannot possibly fall

457
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:37,960
to the Earth. So what there
was that made seventy thousand people simultaneously see

458
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:45,000
it? Do an impossible thing.
I do not know. Now, some

459
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:53,119
of the UFO sightings involve multiple witnessing
of things that we have good reason to

460
00:39:53,239 --> 00:40:00,519
believe were not there. And I'm
not in ti not I don't know,

461
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:09,320
I'll spit those words out. I
don't know how that happens. Oh okay,

462
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,159
yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
Continue, but I'm not prepared to

463
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:21,559
say that the things they saw were
actually there. Well, what about when

464
00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:25,920
things are backed up with radar data
and other, you know, other data.

465
00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:32,280
Look what other data are we talking
about? Um filming um you know,

466
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,519
for instance, the Nimits case when
they had you know, gun footage

467
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:44,000
of these objects, and even the
you know, even the the Pentagon is

468
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,679
you know, saying that these are
unidentified, not knowing what they are.

469
00:40:47,679 --> 00:40:52,320
Of course, that doesn't mean they're
alien. But still, what about when

470
00:40:52,320 --> 00:41:00,000
things are backed up with other evidence. Besides, I've seen I've seen some

471
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:07,840
some videos about those famous Navy videos, suggesting that at least one of them,

472
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:15,119
which seems to be zooming along the
surface of the water, is in

473
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:22,920
fact a weather balloon, and that
the apparent velocity of the thing is the

474
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:29,440
velocity of the jet. I will
not swear that this is the answer,

475
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:39,400
but the evidence hardly seems to me
to support the idea that we've been visited

476
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:52,000
for the past seventy years by extraterrestrials. All right, I've dodged your question

477
00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:57,000
about the radar, right, Yeah, I mean there is not only like

478
00:41:57,159 --> 00:42:00,679
just for instance, in Mimic's case, since I mentioned that it wasn't just

479
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:06,800
one ship, it was more multiple
ships that had this on the radar.

480
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,199
It was the Hawkeye you know above
that all they had all the data on

481
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:17,400
this um And we're talking about sophisticated
equipment here, So not only was it

482
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:25,320
eyewitness, but you know, it
was on the radar, and which it

483
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:31,000
seems to me makes it just as
if anything, more likely that there was

484
00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:37,639
some sort of a glitch in the
equipment. How could that be if there's

485
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:44,360
three radar units all reporting recording the
same thing. This isn't the only case,

486
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,280
but I'm just saying they're all recording
at the same time. The finest

487
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,199
equipment that can be can be made
today, and you're saying it's all failing.

488
00:42:54,239 --> 00:43:00,119
At the same time, I'm saying
that it does things we don't quite

489
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:07,159
expect it to do. The radar, Yeah, and when we talk about

490
00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:12,960
the radar. I think we have
to recognize and this is coming back to

491
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:20,239
where I dropped your question, that
often things appear on the radar that don't

492
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,280
appear that they are not seen,
like this was the case in the famous

493
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:35,119
chase in Belgium in March of nineteen
ninety where pilots were sent up to pursue

494
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,000
objects that were seen from the ground. They got radar locks on these objects,

495
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:46,960
they could not see them, and
they experienced on the radar the objects

496
00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:55,199
zooming away at supersonic speeds without a
sonic boom. That to me is pretty

497
00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:05,440
convincing evidence that whatever we're dealing with
there is not a solid object. And

498
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:12,239
what are you proposing that it is
that case, I don't explain, but

499
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:20,440
in my book, Martin, you
made in my book that I dealt with

500
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:29,159
the Belgian sightings and I talked about
their triangles. That and the history of

501
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:35,960
the triangle is an interesting sort of
subdivision of UFO history. When I was

502
00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:42,119
young, a teenage upologist, we
didn't have such things that that the UFOs

503
00:44:42,159 --> 00:44:45,920
were either discs or else they were
cigar shaped, which were larger, and

504
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:52,159
we suppose that they were mother ships. The triangles The story that Jacques told

505
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:58,440
us is a very early story of
triangles. They really came into their own

506
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:04,280
in the Hudson Valley site in the
mid eighties and then in Belgium in nineteen

507
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,599
eighty nine to ninety. Now,
the standard pattern, it was not the

508
00:45:08,639 --> 00:45:17,480
only kind of UFO that people saw
during that way was three lights and in

509
00:45:17,519 --> 00:45:28,519
the center a weaker red light.
And I would use two ways of approaching

510
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:32,119
that. And I should add one
other thing that when people photographed them,

511
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:38,880
they did not appear on the photographs. At most they got a blog.

512
00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:44,800
Okay, there was one good photograph
and that turned out to be a hoax.

513
00:45:46,039 --> 00:45:51,920
Well, there's actually controversy about that, and there's it's very deep.

514
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:58,280
I've spoke to Leslie Kane in depth
about that. There was some money exchanged

515
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:06,079
so in regards to that photo.
So it's not one h convincing that it

516
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:12,880
is indeed a hoax yet, because
it can't be replicated. Even this Patrick,

517
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,159
the guy who did it, explained
how it was done. They tried

518
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:20,079
to get him to replicate it,
and he couldn't do it. As far

519
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:23,960
as I know, I can get
more into that. I don't have that

520
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,800
information in front of me, but
I looked into this quite a while ago.

521
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,679
But anyway, Yeah, so i'd
look at a different direction that I

522
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:42,400
would look for what was inside the
witnesses that they projected into the sky.

523
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,239
And one path I would take is
the Ungi path. All right. I

524
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,559
mentioned that Yung's Flying Sources was one
of the other books that was in the

525
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:58,760
Levittown Public Library, and when I
read it, I couldn't make head or

526
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,880
tail out of it, actually,
because I thought that would Yo called UFOs

527
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:07,760
a myth he was putting them down, which he wasn't, and that he

528
00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:15,079
showed that the standard disc shape,
the mandala, is something that crops up

529
00:47:15,559 --> 00:47:22,159
in dreams, in legends as a
symbol of wholeness. And also there is

530
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:30,559
another what he called an archetype of
wholeness, the quaternity A four, a

531
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:36,559
foursome of which three are different from
the fourth. Okay, so here we've

532
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:45,039
got a quaternity of three bright white
lights and a dimmer red one. But

533
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:57,039
now Eric Wellet, a Canadian sociologist, has pointed in another direction that what

534
00:47:57,119 --> 00:48:02,199
would just say compliments, yes,
and that is what was the symbolism,

535
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:13,000
symbolism of white lights and a red
light. Remember the Belgian UFO Wave began

536
00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:20,360
at the end of November nineteen eighty
nine, right after the Berlin Wall came

537
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:29,159
down. This was a time of
earth shaking changes, that communism was crumbling

538
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:35,199
in Eastern and Central Europe, mostly
without violence, and this is something that

539
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:43,639
nobody would have expected until it happened. Now, the red star is a

540
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:51,920
symbol for communism, right, and
the white star was and is a symbol

541
00:48:52,039 --> 00:49:00,800
of NATO. So I think what
people were seeing was a symbolic representation of

542
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:12,639
what they knew was happening around them. Well wasn't there dozens of police officers

543
00:49:12,679 --> 00:49:19,840
that in the Belgian wave that reported
seeing them? Yeah? Yeah, And

544
00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:28,440
this gets into the problem of how
you've got multiple sightings. Well, I

545
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,880
guess you know. I'm not agreeing
with you here, but that doesn't mean

546
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:38,159
we can continue can't continue to talk
about it. I just I just feel

547
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:46,679
as though there's so many cases that
with multiple witnesses. I just can't understand

548
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:51,920
how you're a theory and here you
are a person that's looked at this topic

549
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,320
for a long time. So I'm
not you know, I'm not considering you

550
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,960
a debunker for that you know reason
alone, But I find it interesting.

551
00:50:01,679 --> 00:50:09,719
So how did you come up with
this conclusion after all these years? Because

552
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:16,039
I could not under I could not
make any sense out of the extra terrestrial

553
00:50:16,199 --> 00:50:22,880
hypothesis. You've pointed out some flaws
at my approach, and I acknowledge there

554
00:50:23,039 --> 00:50:30,119
are incidents that I can't explain,
But there are so many flaws in the

555
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:42,719
extraterrestrial hypothesis. Why would we have
space visitors for seventy years? How could

556
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:50,639
that be? And that they have
not had the slightest impact on the lives

557
00:50:50,679 --> 00:50:54,599
of people on Earth. I don't
know if you've read Donald Keyhoe's That the

558
00:50:54,719 --> 00:51:00,960
Flying Surcers Are Real, which was
the first book to be published UFO book

559
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:07,239
to be published back in nineteen fifty, but there's a really quite affecting passage

560
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:14,519
in it in which Keyhoe describes taking
a commercial flight which is filled with passengers,

561
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:20,960
and he says, the lives of
everyone on that plane we're going,

562
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:28,400
we're about, are about, We're
about to be transformed by the presence of

563
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:35,159
the flying Saucers. Now, in
nineteen fifty, that was a completely reasonable

564
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:45,920
expectation. Seventy years have passed since
Keyhoe took that flight. Hardly anyone aboard

565
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:55,039
that airplane is still alive. Not
one single person's life has been affected in

566
00:51:55,159 --> 00:52:06,639
the slightest by the supposed centers.
How is this intelligible? If we have

567
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:14,239
if we have spaceships from somewhere else, Well, who are you to say

568
00:52:15,119 --> 00:52:20,360
that that no one's lives have changed, Because I know plenty of people who

569
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:25,760
have had you know, an experience, um even just a major sighting,

570
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,480
and their lives have totally changed.
So I can you put that in different

571
00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:40,559
contexts? Yeah? There that by
this time, a real, a reasonable

572
00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:51,280
expectation would have been that the UFOs
would make themselves known, that there would

573
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:57,519
be no doubt about them. It
has not happened. The early UFO books

574
00:52:57,559 --> 00:53:01,639
are filled with prophecies of this sort. There that we're bound to see major

575
00:53:02,199 --> 00:53:09,519
developments, We're bound to see mass
landings, we're bound to have something,

576
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:16,320
an invasion, contact something. The
decades have passed, nothing has happened.

577
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:22,079
As the Book of Ezekiel puts it, the days grow long, and every

578
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:30,960
vision faileth. Every vision has failed. Yeah, but whose expectations is That's

579
00:53:31,119 --> 00:53:38,440
an expectation that is put on an
outside source. We have no control over.

580
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:45,840
That's our own expectations. So we
have no idea what their agenda,

581
00:53:46,119 --> 00:53:51,800
who if they are, you know, from extraterrestrial I'm not saying that I

582
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,039
know that they are, but I'm
just saying, whoever is visiting us from

583
00:53:55,119 --> 00:54:00,559
wherever, we have no idea what
they're their thoughts, and you know,

584
00:54:00,599 --> 00:54:07,480
we don't have any idea of their
physics or how they got here or what

585
00:54:07,559 --> 00:54:12,320
they are. But which then begins
to explain why they can go at supersonic

586
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,840
speeds without sonic booms. That is, that's something Yeah, like I said

587
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,159
in physics, that they may know
about that we don't. You know that

588
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,639
it could be something along those lines. Now I will turn that around Martin,

589
00:54:25,679 --> 00:54:32,519
and I will ask you, what
then is gained by explaining UFOs as

590
00:54:32,519 --> 00:54:45,360
extraterrestrial visitors. Since we can posit
nothing about extraterrestrial visitors, what is the

591
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:53,639
advantage of saying that over saying we
don't know? I generally say the listeners

592
00:54:53,639 --> 00:54:59,159
on the show know me well enough
to say that. That's generally the term

593
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,840
I say. You know, there's
only one case that I've ever and that

594
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:08,360
was just last week, and that
was the Ariel School incident where I said,

595
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,880
you know, I don't know what
else to explain of those creatures that

596
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:19,239
you know, sixty two plus school
children had, you know, saw firsthand.

597
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:22,760
I have no idea what else to
call them but aliens. That was

598
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,159
the first time that I've actually said
that that I can remember on the show.

599
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,480
I think extraterrestrial is a possibility,
but I don't rule it out.

600
00:55:31,519 --> 00:55:36,719
But I still don't claim that everything
is extraterrestrial, that's for sure. I

601
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:43,199
never claimed that. So then I
would I would go at it and from

602
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,599
a different angle and ask the basic
question, which was the basic question of

603
00:55:47,639 --> 00:55:53,119
my book, not what are UFOs
or where do they come from? But

604
00:55:53,440 --> 00:56:01,480
what do they mean? To treat
them as vessels meaning, and to say

605
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:12,280
that we see them because they mean
something to us. And this is the

606
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:17,719
model that I used to explain the
cases that I took up in the book,

607
00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:27,880
including one classic case, the William
Booth Gill sighting in Papua New Guinea.

608
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:30,360
Shall we talk about that, sure? I think that's a great,

609
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:36,000
great case. Yes, yes,
it's a okay, because we are dealing

610
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:45,079
here with multiple witnesses that something like
twenty five the witness who's been regarded as

611
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:53,760
the primary witness, and this may
be a racist, colonialist bias. The

612
00:56:54,199 --> 00:57:01,960
primary witnesses has been taken to be
William Booth gill And, a young Anglican

613
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:07,480
priest of about thirty one who was
serving as a missionary at a place called

614
00:57:07,519 --> 00:57:17,320
Boyara in Papua New Guinea. He
and something like twenty five of his parishioners

615
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:31,000
signed a paper describing how they had
seen discs at fairly close range and human

616
00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:39,679
like beings walking on top of the
discs. Now Gil said, at one

617
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:46,000
point, no doubt they are human
beings, which should be food for thought

618
00:57:46,119 --> 00:57:52,800
for all of us, that we
are now so used to the classic image

619
00:57:52,840 --> 00:58:01,039
of the gray with the lightbulb shaped
head and the huge, outsized oval eyes,

620
00:58:01,599 --> 00:58:08,519
that we forget that that image did
not exist until the beginning of nineteen

621
00:58:08,599 --> 00:58:15,519
eighty seven. Prior to that.
The people who reported seeing humanoids or human

622
00:58:15,599 --> 00:58:22,440
like beings in connection with the UFOs
describe them in other ways, and in

623
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:27,440
the case of Guilt, it was
that they looked like human beings in all

624
00:58:27,519 --> 00:58:34,360
respects except that they glowed. So
at one point he said they were humans,

625
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,960
and then at other times he said
they were angels. And to me,

626
00:58:38,559 --> 00:58:45,119
I would hold on to both that
they were human and they were angels.

627
00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:51,800
Okay, this I don't think is
explainable. If you suppose that these

628
00:58:51,800 --> 00:59:00,639
were actual space visitors, why should
they should we get different kinds of visitors

629
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:07,360
depending on what book becomes a best
seller. I'm thinking of Whitley Strieber's Communion

630
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:15,039
and stirs up the imaginations of the
people who saw it. Now, what

631
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:21,599
were Gilt and his parishioners looking at
sky? Charts suggest that they were looking

632
00:59:22,199 --> 00:59:29,519
at unusually bright stars and planets seen
through clouds. That that was why they

633
00:59:29,639 --> 00:59:35,320
tended to disappear as the clouds gather
and return. As the clouds dispersed,

634
00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:45,159
something within them was emerging. And
what I saw it as was the Jungian

635
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:54,559
Mandala, the Jungian Quaternity, which
they created together. Not just Guilt his

636
00:59:54,719 --> 01:00:04,920
parishioners came from traditions in which guy
gods descend from heaven and manifest themselves to

637
01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:13,119
human beings. And their vision I'd
actually prefer to call UFO sightings visions than

638
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:23,719
sightings. Their vision served to bridge
to attempt to heal the conflicts between Guilt

639
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:30,199
and his people. It seems to
me if you try to say that these

640
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:43,320
were extraterrestrials, you run into an
insurmountable problem. Why were they seen as

641
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,760
humans? And if you say,
well, they were making it up,

642
01:00:51,559 --> 01:00:59,440
I think that it makes no sense
at all. So I would say they

643
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:09,599
were what for them was a healing
vision coming from inside, stimulated by bright

644
01:01:09,679 --> 01:01:17,920
heavenly bodies. But what counted was
what it meant for them. Now you

645
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:23,079
use the word debunker a moment ago, and I want to say, I

646
01:01:23,159 --> 01:01:30,960
do not consider myself a debunker.
I consider myself a skeptic because I don't

647
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:37,480
believe that the UFOs actually exist,
but I don't believe their bunk. I

648
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:46,519
believe there's something extremely important and that
a UFO citing is what our ancestors would

649
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:55,800
have called a vision of God.
Well, uh so, getting back to

650
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:01,719
the Father guilt case, Um,
you know they there was interaction there too,

651
01:02:01,719 --> 01:02:07,079
with the flashlights and the waving and
all that. But you think I

652
01:02:07,159 --> 01:02:12,039
just can't under I can't understand when
you're you know, the Fatima thing,

653
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,480
you know back then with all those
witnesses and yes, forty to seventy thousand

654
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:21,079
people and what they saw, you
know, was not the sun, and

655
01:02:21,239 --> 01:02:24,960
there has been a question about whether
it was a UFO, And then the

656
01:02:25,079 --> 01:02:30,119
church got involved and said it was
something holy, and you know so,

657
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:36,360
but they you know, I don't
know how all of these people can see

658
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,400
the same thing at the same time. And one thing, one other point

659
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:45,880
I want to make here is again
last week's Guests where it was also a

660
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:51,559
first hand witness to who was a
school child at the time in nineteen ninety

661
01:02:51,599 --> 01:02:59,400
four in Rua, Africa, in
the at the Ariel School when they saw

662
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,519
the being, you know, firsthand, and one was you know, kind

663
01:03:02,519 --> 01:03:07,559
of skimming along and blinking out and
blinking in like it didn't look like it

664
01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:12,519
was actually running. This is according
you know, to a witness. But

665
01:03:12,599 --> 01:03:15,440
when they drew pictures of them,
they did have the big almond eyes,

666
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:20,320
you know, black eyes like that. Now, the point I'm getting at

667
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:25,159
is these kids, so isolated,
had no idea, had never heard of

668
01:03:25,159 --> 01:03:31,280
the word UFO, had never heard
of thought the word of aliens or anything

669
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:36,400
like that. Yet they all witnessed
this, and some of them is you

670
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,480
know, very young, all witnesses, and to this day their stories have

671
01:03:40,559 --> 01:03:45,599
never changed. And what date are
we talking about? What's that? What

672
01:03:45,719 --> 01:03:51,880
date are we talking? Nineteen ninety
four and had nothing to do with Whitley

673
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:59,000
Strieber because this is South Africa and
just completely isolated, very small little village,

674
01:03:59,199 --> 01:04:02,800
small town. There was no exposure
to UFOs there. How do you

675
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:10,280
know that? Well, according to
uh, you know people that have actually

676
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:15,519
interviewed them my guests last week,
UM that they just never had any exposure.

677
01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:18,280
Are you thinking that you're you would
think that they would have to have

678
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:24,000
exposure to come up with this?
Yeah, yeah, I would want to

679
01:04:24,039 --> 01:04:33,960
find somebody who describes those huge eyes
prior to communion. I mean, if

680
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:43,039
you look, Patrick Weig did a
book on UFO occupants with depiction with with

681
01:04:43,039 --> 01:04:50,519
with with artwork depicting them. The
huge eyes don't appear until nineteen eighty seven.

682
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:57,559
What about Barney Barney Hill, I
saw that you wrote in his book

683
01:04:57,599 --> 01:05:01,280
those are pretty pretty large eyes that
he drew. No, not like streamers.

684
01:05:01,599 --> 01:05:05,800
Now, what was remarkable about Barney
Hill's eyes was that they were rapp

685
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:15,519
around. And Martin Kottmeyer has I
think demonstrated very convincingly that the wrap around

686
01:05:15,519 --> 01:05:23,639
eyes came from a science fiction science
a science fiction TV show, The Outer

687
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:29,440
Limits. That they first that this, that it was The Outer Limits in

688
01:05:29,519 --> 01:05:33,440
February of nineteen sixty four, that
first introduced them, and then two weeks

689
01:05:33,559 --> 01:05:41,559
later they turn up in Barney Hill's
Hypnotic Regressions. Now Betty Hill denied that

690
01:05:41,599 --> 01:05:45,239
this was possible. She said,
Barney never we never watched that show.

691
01:05:45,519 --> 01:05:48,559
Barney would never have watched it.
But things like that are in the air.

692
01:05:50,239 --> 01:05:56,119
He may have heard his co workers
talking about it, and it.

693
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,760
I mean, we can we can
look at I have the picture, the

694
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:10,960
sketch that Barney did, and it's
in my book of the the beings that

695
01:06:11,039 --> 01:06:17,280
he's the that he remembered. Yes, I have it. I have your

696
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:23,400
book here too. Yeah, I'll
move it up here. Now, notice

697
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:30,440
those eyes have iris. I won't
say iris and pupil because I don't see

698
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:36,639
a pupil, but they are they
are. They are like human eying that

699
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:42,519
they've got at least an iris.
Now, in Whitley Streepers, I'm sorry,

700
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,079
I'm putting it in the wrong direction, but in Whitley Streepers, this

701
01:06:46,199 --> 01:06:54,320
is solid black with sort of a
split running down from one corner of the

702
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,880
eye to another. These do not
seem to me at all to be the

703
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,920
same kind of eyes. All right, well, I'm gonna also I'm going

704
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:08,039
to keep arguing this Ariel School because
they all said there were black eyes,

705
01:07:08,559 --> 01:07:13,239
and they're all they're very little children. There's no way they could have coordinated

706
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,320
sixty five children to all do the
same thing when they came running in from

707
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:20,679
the playground and the teachers went out. After two teachers went out and saw

708
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:26,320
the object. And I don't know
if they saw the beings or not,

709
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,880
but anyway, there's just no way
these kids could have come up with that

710
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:41,800
on even through a coordinated event.
I think that human beings have an extraordinary

711
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:49,719
ability to communicate with each other without
even knowing what that we're doing it.

712
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:58,920
I believe it was Bruce Hood in
Super Sense who wrote that there have been

713
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:10,599
studies in which people students watch something
like ten seconds of a college professor lecturing,

714
01:08:12,239 --> 01:08:18,000
don't even hear without even voice,
just the sight of the professor lecturing,

715
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:27,039
and they are able to guess with
a very high degree of accuracy what

716
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:38,199
kind of course evaluations that professor gets. We communicate enormous amounts of information to

717
01:08:38,239 --> 01:08:41,960
each other without being aware of it. And that's, by the way,

718
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:46,000
what I think happened with Father Gilli
and his people. I think they must

719
01:08:46,039 --> 01:08:51,760
have said, oh, do you
see that do you see that? And

720
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:57,359
at least a large number of those
who were present, not all of them,

721
01:08:57,399 --> 01:09:00,600
because some of them didn't sign the
paper attesting to seeing it, but

722
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:09,800
a large number of them were We're
able, without being aware of it,

723
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:15,199
to come to a consensus about what
they were seeing. I think something of

724
01:09:15,199 --> 01:09:19,199
the sort must have happened at Fatima, although I don't know, and I'm

725
01:09:19,199 --> 01:09:24,279
not sure. I mean that.
I am tempted to say, well,

726
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:29,199
maybe it's mental telepathy, but then
we're explaining one unknown by another, and

727
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:35,039
I'm not going to do that.
So I don't know exactly what the mechanism

728
01:09:35,239 --> 01:09:43,439
was at the Rio School. I
don't know exactly what the mode of communication

729
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:48,720
was, but it seems to me
it is vastly more probable that there was

730
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:58,880
some form of communication, some form
of I would say, unconscious coordination,

731
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:09,960
than to say that these beings who
are not observed before nineteen eighty seven objectively

732
01:10:10,199 --> 01:10:16,199
exist. Well, why don't you
try to give me some examples of other

733
01:10:16,239 --> 01:10:21,880
things that you think manifest in this
way? I mean, through some type

734
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:29,199
of you mentioned about the college professor. But because I really I don't agree

735
01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:30,479
with you on this, to be
honest with you, you know, and

736
01:10:31,319 --> 01:10:35,239
that's that's fine. You have your
opinion. I have mine, but I

737
01:10:35,279 --> 01:10:41,239
can't you know, I had a
UFO sighting and there's nothing in the world

738
01:10:41,279 --> 01:10:45,920
that made that any point that I
can imagine where I thought, I want

739
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:51,399
to see a UFO or I have
this disc you know, in my head,

740
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,279
you know, the thought of it
or something like that, and all

741
01:10:55,279 --> 01:11:00,319
of a sudden it just appear out
of nowhere. And what about all you

742
01:11:00,359 --> 01:11:04,520
know, the Phoenix lights, for
instance, and the thousands of people that

743
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:08,520
saw that, and they were all
in different locations, they weren't together,

744
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:13,720
they weren't communicating with each other.
The phone ran off, rang off the

745
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:18,760
hook for weeks from witnesses from that
that were outside looking at the comet.

746
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,720
In a situation like that, how
can you argue that, Yeah, I

747
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:27,600
don't know what the phoenix lights were. I don't know what they were.

748
01:11:28,279 --> 01:11:31,880
But I'll give you you ask for
you ask for another example. Let's take

749
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:36,159
one that I gave in my book. This was in the epilogue. Are

750
01:11:36,159 --> 01:11:42,880
you familiar with John Lennon and May
Pangs UFO sighting? Yeah, in nineteen

751
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:47,359
seventy four, I read yeah,
yeah, yeah, And this is where

752
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:55,239
I get very very union, all
right, because that's the let's say,

753
01:11:55,359 --> 01:12:02,880
the model that I'm working with that
it was an August evening in nineteen seventy

754
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,880
four. And I must tell you
when Jacques was talking, I thought,

755
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:12,960
ah, an August evening, the
windows open. Although in other respects I

756
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:19,119
don't think his experience is like that
of John and Maypang that May was coming

757
01:12:19,119 --> 01:12:25,439
out of the shower and John was
walking around the apartment naked, as was

758
01:12:26,159 --> 01:12:29,520
as was his habit. He calls
to her, May May come out,

759
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,359
May May come out here. He's
out on the terrace of the penthouse apartment,

760
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:38,600
and she drops the towel and comes
out. They're both naked. And

761
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:44,439
why I keep insisting on that is
that in nearly all of the interviews with

762
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:50,960
John and May, they both keep
coming back to their being, to being

763
01:12:51,199 --> 01:12:57,239
naked. They go and we'll come
and you'll see why I think that's crucially

764
01:12:57,279 --> 01:13:03,359
important. In a minute, A
see a disc, a domed disc passing

765
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:10,359
overhead. John says that if I
had had a brick, I could have

766
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:14,159
thrown it and hit it, thrown
the brick and hit this object. It

767
01:13:14,279 --> 01:13:18,840
was so close. They had a
camera. They took photos of it.

768
01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:28,399
The photos came out black, which
to me is proof that there was nothing

769
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:31,800
in the sky that, as I
keep saying again and again in my book,

770
01:13:32,159 --> 01:13:40,840
the UFO came from inside. Now
why is nudity important here? Because

771
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:46,199
if I were to ask your viewers, when was the last time that a

772
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:59,399
naked human couple was confronted by a
numinous presence? Surely they would answer in

773
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:08,479
the guard Garden of Eden, right, that God is walking in the garden

774
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:15,399
in the cool of the day,
says Adam, where art thou and Adam

775
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:20,880
says, I heard thy voice walking
in the garden, and I was ashamed

776
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:29,520
because I was naked, and I
hid myself. So what I'm suggesting there

777
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:42,640
is that John and May unconsciously reenacted
this ancient, I would say, archetypal

778
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:55,640
story of the human couple, That
the naked human couple confronted by a numinous

779
01:14:55,800 --> 01:15:04,000
presence that conveys to them and will
take another step here their mortality. Dost

780
01:15:04,039 --> 01:15:12,199
thou art for and dust shalt thou
return? Now how does this happen?

781
01:15:13,079 --> 01:15:21,319
My belief is that these things are
hardwired in the human mind, and that

782
01:15:23,279 --> 01:15:30,000
they can emerge precisely when their least
wanted. This was the same John Lennon

783
01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:39,079
who three years before had sung his
most famous song of the post Beatle era,

784
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:49,000
Imagine, imagine, there's no heaven
above us, only sky, in

785
01:15:49,119 --> 01:16:00,000
other words, banishing the enchanted numenous
heaven and the enchanted numenous heaven come back.

786
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:08,960
And once again we have the problem
of how the two of them see

787
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:14,239
it together. And I can talk
more. I can give you another example

788
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:21,479
of that problem, which but you've
already flagged it. What's that? That

789
01:16:21,319 --> 01:16:29,479
that the Pascagoula abduction. Okay,
I'm in touch with Calvin all the time,

790
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:32,760
so I'm sure he's a very religious
man, by the way, But

791
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:39,880
well, then then you we.
If Calvin is watching, I would say

792
01:16:42,199 --> 01:16:45,760
I'd value your responses to this,
because Calvin, I'm going to have to

793
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:57,119
admit to you that I don't think
you and Hickson were abducted. I don't

794
01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:02,520
think it was possible you were close
enough to a highway that they that the

795
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:09,960
object that abducted you would have been
visible to dozens, if not hundreds of

796
01:17:10,079 --> 01:17:18,199
motorists, and there was no confirming
report. But I also don't think you

797
01:17:18,359 --> 01:17:24,039
and Charles hoaxed it. That makes
no sense. To me at all.

798
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:29,119
And I'm not going I'm going to
stop addressing Calvin. I'm going to address

799
01:17:29,199 --> 01:17:34,720
you and Martin that what most struck
me about that abduction is the police tapes.

800
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:42,039
You know what I'm talking about?
Yes, Yes, that the police

801
01:17:42,039 --> 01:17:47,319
when they reported it, put them
in a room where they thought they were

802
01:17:47,399 --> 01:17:54,600
alone. There was a hidden tape
recorder, and the police expected that when

803
01:17:54,680 --> 01:18:00,680
they played the tapes they would hear
Hickson and Parker shortling about how they'd fooled

804
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:05,760
these dumb cops, and what they
instead heard was something like something like that

805
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:12,159
drive you slam bam out of your
mind. Jesus Christ, like to give

806
01:18:12,199 --> 01:18:18,680
me a heart attack. These were
two people who had had something that they

807
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:28,920
experienced that affected them powerfully. Now
what was that? What really interests me,

808
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,640
And this is not only this is
not original with me. I cannot

809
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:38,159
remember the name of the author,
but it was a Jungian analysis of their

810
01:18:38,279 --> 01:18:47,000
experience which focused on how the UFO
opened like a coin purse. Okay,

811
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:53,119
and let me, I happen to
have, by an odd coincidence, a

812
01:18:53,159 --> 01:19:00,119
coin purse in my pocket that it
opened okay, seeming it right, but

813
01:19:00,319 --> 01:19:03,680
sort of like this, you're seeing
that. Okay, we've seen one of

814
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:08,279
those in years. Yeah. Well, I'm very old fashioned. I sort

815
01:19:08,279 --> 01:19:16,000
of carry things around that other people
have discarded long ago. That is the

816
01:19:16,039 --> 01:19:24,760
way a fish's mouth would open.
These were two men who went onto the

817
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:33,039
pier to fish, and were themselves
fished for by a greater fish. And

818
01:19:33,199 --> 01:19:40,680
I begin to think that, just
as John and May reenacted the Eden's story,

819
01:19:42,079 --> 01:19:51,560
Calvin and Charles reenacted the story of
Jonah, something of that sort in

820
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:58,199
the Whale now, except it wasn't. The Bible never says whale the Lord

821
01:19:58,239 --> 01:20:04,239
had prepared a great fish to swallow
Joan. Yeah. Well, uh,

822
01:20:05,239 --> 01:20:08,760
you know, well, let me
ask you this, has anyone ever goten

823
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:15,640
angry at you for telling them that
what they saw was not basically a manifestation

824
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:23,159
of thoughts or whatever? Have you
getten people angry at you? Because I'm

825
01:20:23,159 --> 01:20:31,199
gonna I've gotten people angry at me
for many reasons. I do not think.

826
01:20:35,119 --> 01:20:42,039
I cannot recall any The closest thing
that came to that was do you

827
01:20:42,079 --> 01:20:45,840
know the whole business about Westall High
School in Melbourne, Australia. Oh yes,

828
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,600
yes, And I should say that
Shane Ryan, who was the main

829
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:57,399
the primary investigator of this. Yes, he and I. He is a

830
01:20:57,399 --> 01:21:02,960
fine gentleman, and he and I
have for the past four years cordially disagreed

831
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:11,159
about what was going on at Westall. Now what struck me in one of

832
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:21,560
the witnesses who saw actually two landed
discs that in the drawing that was made

833
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:29,680
of them, they look exactly like
the breasts of a girl or woman lying

834
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:33,039
on her back. And this was
in an area which, according to Shane's

835
01:21:33,119 --> 01:21:40,520
the movie The Shane was featured in
Westall sixty six was a known place for

836
01:21:41,399 --> 01:21:50,119
steamy liaisons. Okay, so I
suggested that what the witness remembered was something

837
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:58,760
about the sexual activities in this area, and one ufologists, not Shane,

838
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:05,520
show the witness what I'd written,
and apparently he was completely flabbergasted. I

839
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:10,359
would not blame this man at all. If he were furious at me,

840
01:22:11,279 --> 01:22:16,199
I don't know. Well, I
don't know whether he was or just unbelieving

841
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:23,760
that I could have imagined such a
thing. So I suppose the short answer

842
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:29,640
to your question is, if they
didn't get mad at me, I am

843
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:35,119
surprised, because they have every reason
to get mad at me. Okay,

844
01:22:35,199 --> 01:22:39,520
Well, at least you have thick
skin because you're going to need it when

845
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:43,680
I take phone calls and you might
need it. I should say, I'm

846
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:47,720
well asked it. We'll ask people
to be kind. Yeah, Now,

847
01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:56,319
when you're when you are are looking
into these cases. So there's nothing that

848
01:22:56,399 --> 01:23:02,520
you have found in all through history
that of any UFO cases and witnesses and

849
01:23:03,279 --> 01:23:10,439
uh maybe trace evidence cases. Nothing, nothing that convinces you that it could

850
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:16,560
be. And I'm not saying extraterrestrial
because I don't really know if these objects

851
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:23,119
are, but I mean there's other
speculation of where they may be coming from.

852
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:26,880
Um I'll tell you. Of all
the cases that you might say,

853
01:23:27,399 --> 01:23:32,560
the one that troubles me the most
is Socorro, New Mexico, April nineteen

854
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:43,239
sixty four. Yeah, okay,
there there were traces very in a good

855
01:23:43,319 --> 01:23:48,760
Jungian pattern by the way, sort
of like a tripod and a triangle,

856
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:54,560
and a fourth trace that is outside
the triangle. There was one witness,

857
01:23:54,720 --> 01:24:01,920
Lonnie Zamora, who was regarded by
everyone as a reliable witness. Now Zamora

858
01:24:02,239 --> 01:24:06,479
could have dug those holes, and
if you pushed me into a corner,

859
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:13,720
I would have to say, yes, I think he did dig those holes

860
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:19,359
and make up the make up his
story. But Lonnie, if you're listening

861
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:28,479
from the other world, please forgive
me, because I know that I am

862
01:24:29,279 --> 01:24:36,479
speaking ill of a man whom everyone
regarded as a solid citizen, an upright

863
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:42,720
lawman, and someone who would not
hoax. But I cannot think of any

864
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:48,760
alternative, and I am totally dissatisfied
with this hypothesis. If anyone can come

865
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:54,319
up with a better room, I
will be interested. But I do not

866
01:24:54,479 --> 01:25:01,960
count the idea that these small humanoids
who were shaped exactly like human beings except

867
01:25:02,359 --> 01:25:08,960
for their diminutive size, that that
that they were visitors from another planet.

868
01:25:09,359 --> 01:25:15,439
That I do not consider an acceptable
alternative. Well, Um, Ray Stamford

869
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:21,399
often listens to the show if he
was the investigator there and wrote the book,

870
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:29,479
um Um, I don't have the
title right off the tip of my

871
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:31,159
tongue here, but if he happens
to be listening, he may want to

872
01:25:31,159 --> 01:25:35,760
call in um to talk to you
about that case. He he knew Lonnie,

873
01:25:36,319 --> 01:25:43,319
Um, and uh there it just
seems like, you know, Monnie

874
01:25:43,359 --> 01:25:48,600
was the last person out there that
wanted any attention. You know that part

875
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:54,239
two, right, So why would
he help? Sometimes? So unsatisfied.

876
01:25:54,880 --> 01:26:00,720
Unsatisfied, But it's your only answer, is that what you're saying, it's

877
01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:05,720
the best I can come up with, like your Alkham's razor, so to

878
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:13,239
speak. I don't know if it's
Olkham's razor, but yeah, I mean

879
01:26:13,279 --> 01:26:15,560
I can. Okay, I'm going
to do it. This is kind of

880
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:17,399
cheating, Okay, and I'll admit
that, but I'm going to flip it

881
01:26:17,399 --> 01:26:25,479
around and say, how likely is
it that in seventy years we would have

882
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:34,079
such a just a handful of solid
cases like this. Okay, that's your

883
01:26:34,159 --> 01:26:43,279
question to me. And yeah,
maybe maybe they are observing and want to

884
01:26:43,319 --> 01:26:47,479
just observe whoever they are, wherever
they're from. And maybe they're maybe they

885
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:54,279
realize that they would have an impact
on any type of society that would expose

886
01:26:56,439 --> 01:27:02,520
wherever they're from. And then we
get back to the question of their motives,

887
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:08,840
which when I was a teenage ufologist
I gave the same answer that I've

888
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:14,960
heard from you. We can't say
put ourselves in their place because we don't

889
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:19,359
know what their place is. And
it's only now that I would say this

890
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:30,680
strips the extraterrestrial hypothesis of any explanatory
power. It might have and and can

891
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:34,800
you explain that a little more?
Yeah, because if we don't have any

892
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:44,079
idea what kind of behavior would be
expected of alien visitors, then what do

893
01:27:44,199 --> 01:27:51,159
we gain by saying it is alien
visitors? But that's that's has nothing to

894
01:27:51,199 --> 01:27:57,359
do with um. That would be
like, um, we're not going to

895
01:27:57,479 --> 01:28:00,680
change dark matter, but we don't
know what it is, you know,

896
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:11,760
I mean, I don't understand your
reasoning there. That Okay. When Keyhoe

897
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:19,680
in nineteen fifty said these are beings
from other planets visiting us, he thought

898
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:30,760
he knew what we could expect from
that. He thought he knew what space

899
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:39,640
visitors could be expected to do,
and therefore that was an answer to the

900
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:47,279
question of what people were seeing.
Seventy years later, all we can say

901
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:57,319
is whatever they're doing is something utterly
unlike what we might imagine them to be

902
01:28:57,439 --> 01:29:02,239
doing, in which case we don't
no anymore than we did to start out

903
01:29:02,359 --> 01:29:06,079
with. Yeah, but what does
it have to do with us? I

904
01:29:06,119 --> 01:29:11,640
mean, we're that's our again.
I'll say it again, that's our maybe

905
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:16,920
your expectations or maybe some other people's
expectations as well, but that has nothing

906
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:21,359
to do with the actual situation.
Seventy years. It's a little tiny blip

907
01:29:21,399 --> 01:29:26,720
of time when it comes to you
know, the cosmos, so to speak.

908
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:30,920
I mean, what is seventy years? Why not two thousand years or

909
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:40,840
fifty years or ten years? What's
the difference then? Now I don't understand

910
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:45,119
your point. Okay, it sounds
to me like you're saying seven years later

911
01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:48,720
we don't know anything, and we
should know something by now. Is that?

912
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:51,560
What is that what you're saying?
Yeah, And I think if you

913
01:29:51,680 --> 01:29:57,840
read the UFO books from back then, they were filled with that expectation.

914
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:01,520
It's the most reasonable expectation. And
in the world. Why is it reasonable?

915
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:12,800
That's our thoughts, has nothing to
do with what's happening, I think,

916
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:19,239
because when you say that there are
visitors, we assume these are intelligent

917
01:30:19,359 --> 01:30:27,960
beings, the kind of beings that
we might communicate with, And unless we

918
01:30:28,159 --> 01:30:46,119
presuppose some sort of shared understandings,
then to say that it's intelligent beings makes

919
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:56,399
no sense. I mean, they
let let me the I remember when I

920
01:30:56,520 --> 01:31:00,560
was a when I was a teenage
uphologist. I remember where I drew a

921
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:10,000
cartoon and the cartoon showed made a
couple of Native Americans by Ashore watching three

922
01:31:10,039 --> 01:31:14,800
ships approach, the Nina, the
Pinta, and the Santa Maria, and

923
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:17,560
one of the Native Americans says to
the other, you brought me all the

924
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:24,119
way out here to look at temperature
and versions. Okay, good you left.

925
01:31:24,159 --> 01:31:28,680
I mean, I thought it was
a pretty funny cartoon. But when

926
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:45,439
the Natives encountered these alien crafts that
appeared on their horizon, the consequences were

927
01:31:45,560 --> 01:31:55,279
clear, very very soon. That
nothing of the sort has happened with the

928
01:31:55,399 --> 01:32:06,279
UFOs seems to me to hast a
tremendous shadow on whether it is helpful to

929
01:32:06,279 --> 01:32:14,600
pull them visitors, unless you do
it as I do, to speak of

930
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:21,560
them as visitors from inside us,
telling us things that we need to know,

931
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:29,840
not necessarily want to know. By
the way, Yeah, well,

932
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:32,800
you know, I'm if I argue
with you more, I'm basically going to

933
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:39,159
be saying the same the same thing, because my thoughts are that, you

934
01:32:39,199 --> 01:32:43,159
know, whatever it is, may
just be observing, may not choose to

935
01:32:43,199 --> 01:32:47,239
interact. And like you said,
when you're back in the nineteen sixties,

936
01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:50,319
you know, the thinking, how
do we know what they're thinking? Is

937
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:56,159
we have no idea how they think. We couldn't even imagine it if wherever

938
01:32:56,199 --> 01:32:59,159
they're from again, they may not
be extraterrestrial. I don't know what it

939
01:32:59,239 --> 01:33:04,159
is, um, but anyway,
I'm opening the line up and be respectful.

940
01:33:04,279 --> 01:33:09,920
It's eight five five four seven two
five four eight three. The line

941
01:33:10,079 --> 01:33:15,000
is open if anyone wants to call
in. I was seeing some chats that

942
01:33:15,039 --> 01:33:24,279
were, uh see someone. I'm
reading this right off the cuff here,

943
01:33:24,399 --> 01:33:28,800
So I don't know what exactly saying
it says. Please ask him if he

944
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:34,720
believes panda bears? What? Oh, never mind? Do you believe in

945
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:41,199
panda bears? Scientists declined their existence
for seventy five years, yet they are

946
01:33:41,239 --> 01:33:45,479
real. I think he's trying to
make a point. So now, why

947
01:33:45,399 --> 01:33:50,119
if I believe in panda bears,
why should I believe in UFOs. It's

948
01:33:50,119 --> 01:33:56,039
just I just picked. I just
picked a one to read right up the

949
01:33:56,039 --> 01:34:00,720
bat that was addressed to me and
basically saying that there was a denial for

950
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,439
seventy five years and they did exist
after all. But anyway, the line

951
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:11,800
is open again. That number is
is eight five five four seven two five

952
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:16,199
four eight three. I know people
want to call and talk, and so

953
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:21,920
that line is open and we actually
have I don't know six lines anyone could

954
01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:26,079
call. In last week the phone
was ringing off the hook. We had

955
01:34:26,119 --> 01:34:29,680
a lot of calls, but you
never know. Sometimes we will not get

956
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:35,439
any calls. So as are there
other people that share your belief? I

957
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,039
get do we call it a belief? Is that what you call it?

958
01:34:39,279 --> 01:34:45,000
Yeah? I mean I think I'm
following in the in the footsteps of Jacques

959
01:34:45,079 --> 01:34:48,439
Valley. I mean, we don't
totally agree on everything, but what fallet

960
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:57,960
flag in this seminal book passport to
Magonia. And this is a point that

961
01:34:58,039 --> 01:35:06,600
I would have made much earlier,
that the UFOs seem to reflect the technology

962
01:35:08,359 --> 01:35:15,000
of the society that observes them,
which will make excellent sense if they're a

963
01:35:15,159 --> 01:35:21,800
human phenomenon, no sense if they're
visitors from elsewhere. Have any of your

964
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:28,119
guests talk a bit talked about the
airship of eighteen ninety seven, Yes,

965
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:32,680
with the lights coming down and all
that. Yes, and people actually make

966
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:40,920
in contact with the pilots of the
airship. Only these are not intergalactic aliens,

967
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:45,640
but American inventors, often from New
York State, who have an odd

968
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:53,880
tendency to be named Wilson. Now, what were these people seeing? What

969
01:35:54,039 --> 01:36:01,520
did it. What was the experience
when they met the pilots, Because just

970
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:11,199
like the fallen the falling sun at
Fatima, these are things that there's no

971
01:36:11,279 --> 01:36:17,640
way they can have existed. Would
you agree with that? Well, you

972
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:23,039
know, I could have. I
could agree that there's no technology that we

973
01:36:23,119 --> 01:36:26,960
had at that time. But I'm
not saying I can agree, you know,

974
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:30,800
I mean, if we are being
visited by whoever, why is it?

975
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:34,640
Why would it be just you know, nineteen forty seven. And I

976
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:39,159
did see in your book that you
did have some earlier you know, very

977
01:36:39,199 --> 01:36:46,479
early accounts of your explanation of I
guess you know, people manifesting back in

978
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:51,439
the sixteen eighties in Africa and other
places like that. Now, what you

979
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:59,439
what the people in eighteen ninety seven
were describing were craft that were just a

980
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:05,079
step ahead of the technology of eighteen
ninety seven, That there were sort of

981
01:37:05,119 --> 01:37:14,159
like the sort of like super derigibles. Yeah, and yet they and yet

982
01:37:14,159 --> 01:37:16,520
they were having, as far as
we can tell, real experiences there.

983
01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:21,039
Jerry Clark did had a really fascinating
piece, I think it was in the

984
01:37:21,119 --> 01:37:31,920
International UFO Reporter about a rabbi when
Beaumont, Texas, who saw a landed,

985
01:37:32,119 --> 01:37:39,880
the airship landed, met in the
pilot and shook hands with them.

986
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:45,479
And I found myself asking why would
a rabbi be going out to a farm

987
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:49,560
to interview the pilot of an airship? And I could only give I mean,

988
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:55,479
Jerry proved quite conclusively. I think
that this rabbi actually existed. Nobody

989
01:37:55,520 --> 01:38:00,479
made him up, although I don't
know what his story, the story that

990
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:09,039
he himself told, actually was,
but that the way I understood it is

991
01:38:09,119 --> 01:38:15,399
that he was from Germany in Beaumont. A rabbi in Beaumont, Texas in

992
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:21,720
the eighteen nineties would have been doubly
alien as a Jew and as a foreigner,

993
01:38:23,720 --> 01:38:30,880
But by shaking hands with the pilot
of the airship, he became part

994
01:38:31,479 --> 01:38:41,600
of the American story of invention and
innovation, which reached what we talked with.

995
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:45,960
This brings us back to what we
talked about right in the break beforehand,

996
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:50,840
that reached one of its high points
not far from where I live in

997
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:58,800
Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, a
couple of decades later, with the right

998
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:06,960
brothers. Okay, so I think
we're dealing with stories that have that that

999
01:39:08,119 --> 01:39:19,880
double aspect of being a creation called
a legendary creation of the time and at

1000
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:30,119
the same time come across as authentic
experiences of the people who encounter them.

1001
01:39:30,239 --> 01:39:40,239
And Jacques tried to maintain this by
supposing there was some sort of other world,

1002
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:46,399
not outer space, but that intersected
with ours and that mirrored ours.

1003
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:56,720
I would go for a more strictly
psychological explanation that this is something that comes

1004
01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:10,000
from inside us, and the nature
of the experience has a quality that I

1005
01:40:10,119 --> 01:40:16,680
don't fully understand. But there's no
question that that Jacques was one of the

1006
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:21,359
pioneers. If you wanted to draw
a line from where I've been, it

1007
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:29,039
would start with Carl Yone and run
through Jacques Valet. While those are certainly

1008
01:40:29,039 --> 01:40:33,159
two pretty big names, we have
Chris on the line from Houston. Welcome

1009
01:40:33,199 --> 01:40:39,239
to the show, Chris, Hi
Martin, that's called before. I'm one

1010
01:40:39,279 --> 01:40:42,239
of the people that's I don't know
if angry as the word, but irritated

1011
01:40:43,479 --> 01:40:50,680
that your guests, right, So
I think what I'm hearing, I understand

1012
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:57,880
completely what you're saying, Martin about
your reservations about this reasoning. I don't

1013
01:40:57,920 --> 01:41:02,720
understand this reasoning. Your reasonings are
and it look it seems to me that

1014
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:09,520
it's almost like a form of what's
it called paradolia where you see faces and

1015
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:14,840
clouds, or like a cargo cult
or you you know, you mart you

1016
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:18,640
mentioned the panda thing, but you
know, people seeing throughout history and in

1017
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:27,479
anthropological terms, seeing creatures that they
described as monsters who turned that turned out

1018
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:31,399
to be ordinary creatures in the wild
they just had never seen before. So

1019
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:38,319
all of this seems to be putting
the need for an explanation ahead of the

1020
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:51,319
observation of the experience and letting an
intellectualized description of a psychological effect drive all

1021
01:41:51,399 --> 01:41:58,199
interpretations of data, and it seems
backwards to logic and backwards to analysis and

1022
01:41:58,239 --> 01:42:03,159
observation. I did miss the first
half of the show, so I don't

1023
01:42:03,159 --> 01:42:08,920
know if you discussed the tic TACs
with him, but I would if you

1024
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:12,760
haven't, or even if you have
it, you might just revisit that the

1025
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:15,680
other And then I have, as
I've described to you before, my own

1026
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:20,760
sightings. I've had several sightings.
And if you're telling me that things that

1027
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:27,479
I've seen are a religious experience or
a psychological manifestation, I'm sorry, that's

1028
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:31,399
just bonkers. And you have no
evidence of that. Your explanations are more

1029
01:42:31,439 --> 01:42:43,399
far fetched than the observations of these
crafts. Yeah, and I do you

1030
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:54,119
a graded justice by telling you that
you didn't see what you thought you saw.

1031
01:42:56,159 --> 01:42:59,640
You don't have a right to tell
me that, and I an obligation

1032
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,479
to leave it. I do have
a right. It's an unprofessional and unethical

1033
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:06,439
for you to say that to me. I don't think so. I absolutely

1034
01:43:06,479 --> 01:43:11,199
do not believe it. I absolutely
trust my experience. You're killing everyone who's

1035
01:43:11,239 --> 01:43:15,039
had an one of these experiences that
they must not trust their their judgment and

1036
01:43:15,079 --> 01:43:20,520
their observation. And I absolutely reject
that categorically. Yes, and I can

1037
01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:26,079
see why you do. What does
you think of those I'm going to hang

1038
01:43:26,159 --> 01:43:30,960
up and take it from there,
all right, Hey, thanks, thanks

1039
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:38,439
for the call, Chris. Okay, anything you'd like to add We have

1040
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:46,119
another caller. Yeah, yeah,
that. I think Chris has every right

1041
01:43:46,159 --> 01:43:53,880
to be angry at what I'm saying, just as I've had every right to

1042
01:43:54,079 --> 01:44:00,079
say it. I think back to
one thing that one person who influenced me

1043
01:44:00,159 --> 01:44:05,359
a great deal, who I mentioned
in my book, who was a librarian

1044
01:44:06,199 --> 01:44:15,479
in western North Carolina, and she
told me about the UFO aliens that she

1045
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:21,960
saw through the windows of her house, standing on her lawn, and she

1046
01:44:23,079 --> 01:44:30,239
said to me, I know they
weren't really there, but I did see

1047
01:44:30,279 --> 01:44:39,359
them. I believe both parts of
her statement, and my project is to

1048
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:50,640
understand how both parts can be true. Chris, let us work together to

1049
01:44:50,680 --> 01:45:01,199
try to explore what it may have
meant to you what you saw. All

1050
01:45:01,279 --> 01:45:05,399
right, he's up, he's no
longer on the line. But um,

1051
01:45:06,319 --> 01:45:11,279
all right, Uh, well,
we have another phone call coming into but

1052
01:45:11,359 --> 01:45:18,760
we have I don't know what your
real name is. What's your your real

1053
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:25,479
first name? And I know you're
not calling from Zeter Reticulae. We have

1054
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:30,039
here. Line's over here, Greg, Hi, welcome to the show.

1055
01:45:30,079 --> 01:45:33,119
You have a question for our guests. Yeah, um, well, it's

1056
01:45:33,199 --> 01:45:39,079
kind of like a statement. I
just know you have a career in theology.

1057
01:45:39,199 --> 01:45:42,359
I mean it's all theology. So
it looks to me like you only

1058
01:45:42,359 --> 01:45:46,319
see theology, like for instance,
John Lennon and The Nakedness. It's kind

1059
01:45:46,359 --> 01:45:51,640
of a stretch to get that into
a theology theological area. But here we

1060
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:55,960
go. Yeah, you know that, you know the thing that when the

1061
01:45:56,079 --> 01:46:00,920
only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like and that's what

1062
01:46:01,039 --> 01:46:09,840
it appears to me that's possible.
I'm gonna say, let's try using that

1063
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:16,079
hammer and act as if UFOs are
a nail and see what we come up

1064
01:46:16,119 --> 01:46:20,600
with. Now, I hope you
will read my book. I don't necessarily

1065
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:25,560
say I hope you'll buy it,
although obviously I do, but there are

1066
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:29,760
ways to read books without buying them. I think the libraries are going to

1067
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:34,399
open sooner or later, and I
hope you will read it and see whether

1068
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:43,640
you think that my hammer has worked
fairly well on the nails. On a

1069
01:46:43,760 --> 01:46:48,000
belief system, though, and a
lot of us are looking at nuts and

1070
01:46:48,159 --> 01:46:51,920
bolts, like, for instance,
the radar on those ships. You're not

1071
01:46:51,920 --> 01:46:55,720
going to pull that stuff. And
there was the brand new stuff on the

1072
01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:59,479
F eighteens. These weren't all the
F eighteens. This was the new stuff.

1073
01:46:59,479 --> 01:47:03,000
They're right of the box, and
they don't just show nothing. And

1074
01:47:03,079 --> 01:47:09,520
when you got the shift and the
planes showing something that the pilots can see,

1075
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:15,039
and they're getting it on infrared,
it's not somebody's imagination. And yet

1076
01:47:15,199 --> 01:47:21,039
radar has been fooled many times.
Do you have what's called the anomalous propagation,

1077
01:47:21,199 --> 01:47:26,159
Well, that's that's true, but
that's like mostly all the radar and

1078
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:30,039
like top of the radar, if
you have birds flying around, that will

1079
01:47:30,079 --> 01:47:34,760
do it. But whether dop the
radar that is. But I think there's

1080
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:40,560
a lot going on here that you're
just not looking at because it's not what

1081
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:45,319
you particularly want to look at,
is my opinion. Yeah, and that's

1082
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:50,239
that's a legitimate criticism. But I
would ask, are all are there things

1083
01:47:50,319 --> 01:47:57,840
that the people who advocate for the
et hypothesis are not looking at? Such

1084
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:04,880
as the descriptions that of the occupants
tend to be conditioned by what people what

1085
01:48:05,039 --> 01:48:09,880
people expect to see. Well,
a lot of people are Well, you

1086
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:15,119
were saying about whit Wey Strieber's book, but that description has been around long

1087
01:48:15,199 --> 01:48:19,159
before that, in the nineteen eighties
version of Whitley Strieber, who was pretty

1088
01:48:19,199 --> 01:48:23,960
sharp, and he did a lot
of research into what things it could possibly

1089
01:48:24,039 --> 01:48:28,359
be besides what he thought it was, and he went a long way before

1090
01:48:28,359 --> 01:48:32,399
he even decided he thought that's what
That was a lot of a lot of

1091
01:48:32,479 --> 01:48:40,960
searching. Yeah, Whitley Streeper is
an extraordinarily intelligent and above all an extraordinarily

1092
01:48:41,079 --> 01:48:46,920
self aware man. And it's worth
noting that He never said anywhere that he

1093
01:48:47,039 --> 01:48:53,560
was being visited by aliens. He
just called them the visitors. That's true.

1094
01:48:53,640 --> 01:48:57,600
But it could be interdimensional. That's
a popular one. It could be

1095
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:03,239
something we don't even understand. Possible. It's possible, But then then it

1096
01:49:03,359 --> 01:49:12,800
stops when you say that, it
loses its power as an explanation. Now,

1097
01:49:13,279 --> 01:49:16,399
Strieber's image. I talk a lot
about Strieber in my book, and

1098
01:49:16,479 --> 01:49:24,520
Strieber speaks of them as having the
huge, staring eyes of the old gods.

1099
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:30,000
And I think he's right on target
there, And this takes it back

1100
01:49:30,039 --> 01:49:33,119
to me. I'm not exactly a
student of theol a scholar of theology,

1101
01:49:33,159 --> 01:49:36,800
but of religion. It's not quite
the same thing. But yeah, I

1102
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:45,760
do look for religious phenomena, and
Strieber saw what he was experiencing as a

1103
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:48,720
religious phenomena. I'm going to have
to cut the ship. I'm gonna have

1104
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:51,520
to cut the call. I'm sorry, we have two other people waiting,

1105
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:58,520
but thanks, thanks very much.
All right, just real quickly, one

1106
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:03,399
thing I thought of Travis Wall describes
the same type of eyes nineteen seventy five.

1107
01:50:04,439 --> 01:50:08,760
Um, so I don't know.
That's just one other thought, but

1108
01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:12,119
I want to catch this call.
We have two more callers. We have

1109
01:50:12,239 --> 01:50:15,119
Ward from Fort Myers. Welcome to
the show. We have to make a

1110
01:50:15,239 --> 01:50:20,880
quick ward. Sure enough, Roby, I must big followed you that I

1111
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:25,600
actually just walked up towards the end
of your show. But I start heard

1112
01:50:25,880 --> 01:50:31,399
the gentleman is saying that. And
I'm not mistaken that the visitors or alliance

1113
01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:38,359
or whatever you want to calm are
more a figment of our on and imagination,

1114
01:50:38,439 --> 01:50:42,119
like we we create these things.
Is that and I correct to saying

1115
01:50:42,159 --> 01:50:45,840
that? Or was I one twenty
off? No, you're right, You're

1116
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:51,399
right on on target. You're right
on target. Only strip that of any

1117
01:50:51,439 --> 01:51:00,600
disparaging connotations that'd say there's something that
comes from inside us, that is from

1118
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:08,399
within from within it. Well,
I have I disagree with you. I

1119
01:51:08,479 --> 01:51:15,840
had to resinct it because I have
videos and film of roxial lines and I'm

1120
01:51:15,840 --> 01:51:18,399
not talking about, oh, you
can't tell what it is or whatever it

1121
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:27,239
is. They've left me notes and
these things are real entities and their knowledge

1122
01:51:27,239 --> 01:51:30,079
of figuring out my imagination. For
the first part, I thought I was

1123
01:51:30,119 --> 01:51:33,640
having prote guist activity. There's a
lot of pot the guys that they've been

1124
01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:38,319
going on in my home, so
I thought I had a ghost, and

1125
01:51:38,359 --> 01:51:41,960
then I found out on my form
my videos that it wasn't a ghost.

1126
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:44,560
There was it was uh, whatever
you want to call them. I know

1127
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:47,640
where they're from. I can't tell
you myself, but it's not from my

1128
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:53,399
imagination. Also, not only do
I see them, because my mother's season

1129
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:58,119
and my daughter's season. So it's
pretty hard not at the same time,

1130
01:51:58,439 --> 01:52:02,640
three different people see things at three
different times and now, and this all

1131
01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:08,479
started happening in twenty twelve. My
mother is ninety and my dad is twenty

1132
01:52:08,520 --> 01:52:12,119
six, and none of us before
twenty twelve had ever seen any of this

1133
01:52:12,239 --> 01:52:16,720
kind of stuff. So it's really
odd at it at um in the year

1134
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:23,359
twenty twelve that all of us would
start fishing of these things and start imagining

1135
01:52:23,399 --> 01:52:28,600
its amount of fest Yeah, I
mean you're described thinking of people like the

1136
01:52:29,199 --> 01:52:32,239
beings, like the class at Grays
that you saw. Well, actually,

1137
01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:36,880
I've only seen Grays a couple of
times. I have all different guards,

1138
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:43,159
all different guards, and Ward,
I'm sorry, I gonna have to cut

1139
01:52:43,159 --> 01:52:45,720
the short. We're right at the
end of the show here. I gotta

1140
01:52:45,760 --> 01:52:50,079
take a call real quickly. Thank
you very much. All right, just

1141
01:52:50,239 --> 01:52:56,319
uh, we have Steve. I
think you've called before from Washington. Steve,

1142
01:52:56,399 --> 01:53:00,560
we only got a minute and a
half. Okay, I can be

1143
01:53:00,680 --> 01:53:03,279
quicker, I can let it go. No, no, go ahead.

1144
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:10,560
Are you ready for me? They're
up? You're up? Yep? Oh

1145
01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:15,159
okay. My question is is there
any legitimate purpose to this? Ar you

1146
01:53:15,199 --> 01:53:20,039
say that these things are a delusion
closer to a delusion. I just want

1147
01:53:20,079 --> 01:53:25,680
to know. Do you see these
as having some legitimate purpose? Absolutely?

1148
01:53:27,039 --> 01:53:34,920
Absolutely. It seems to me that
most basically what these are is our way

1149
01:53:35,079 --> 01:53:43,000
of dealing with our mortality. Dost
thou art and too, dost shalt thou

1150
01:53:43,159 --> 01:53:51,840
return. I would not use the
word delusion about them. They're real in

1151
01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:59,439
a psychic sense. Okay, so
they serve a purpose? Yes, yes,

1152
01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:03,199
well that's an interesting twist. I
wish we had more time to discuss

1153
01:54:03,239 --> 01:54:09,039
that. Thanks for the call,
Steve, Thank you. Yeah, I

1154
01:54:09,079 --> 01:54:12,319
wish we had more time to discuss
that, but we are at the end

1155
01:54:12,359 --> 01:54:16,640
of the show, so real quickly
again. The title of your book,

1156
01:54:16,720 --> 01:54:21,439
Intimate Alien, The Hidden Story of
the UFO. Wow, that's all I

1157
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:27,000
gotta say is wow. Thanks so
much, David, and and we'll talk

1158
01:54:27,039 --> 01:54:30,960
soon, take care. Thank you
so much for having me. All Right,

1159
01:54:30,279 --> 01:54:34,960
Okay, all right everyone, So
that's that's it for the show.

1160
01:54:36,439 --> 01:54:43,880
Next week we have Chris Styles from
Shag Harbor. He was the lead investigator

1161
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:46,880
in Shag Harbor. He's going to
be on next week and thanks so much.

1162
01:54:46,920 --> 01:55:19,520
Everyone. Remember to keep your eyes
to the sky to