WEBVTT

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Last Welcome everyone. I bet you
were never expecting this. I have fellow

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Christian great debater with me, Jaydyre
Jay. How you doing. What's up,

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Michael? I'm doing good. Glad
to be here with you. We

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had some we found some common ground
because we both have had some recent Islamic

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interactions and so when you reached out, I was happy to come back on,

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to come on and have a conversation
about this contentious period. So really

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glad to be here. Oh,
I'm I'm super happy to have you here.

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I really appreciate it. One of
the things I do focus on is

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trying to find common ground among Christians
and show the world that we are not

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as divided as people think we are. I think you and I probably agree

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on more than we disagree. And
since since something came up that I thought

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we could stream on, I was
like, yeah, let's do it.

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Let's let's have a stream to break
all streams. And this is what I

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was happy, though happy to do. So for those you know when you

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said, you know you agreed with
the monarchy view of the triad and all

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that, and I was I was
like, yeah, we can definitely,

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you know, we can work from
there for sure, and you know,

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especially when it comes to opposing Islamic
claims of the fact that there's not the

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Trinity and deity of Christ in the
first, second, and third centuries.

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I mean, I think I think
it's going to be really clear after today's

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discussion that absolutely isn't the case.
The Trinity is absolutely there. Yeah,

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So let me give everyone a backstory
why we're here today. So, both

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Jay and I have been dealing with
Muslims in the past few months. We

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both had debates with the infamous Daniel
L. Kikichu, which I want to

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talk about briefly here. By the
way, for any of you have not

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seen Jay's debate with Daniel Kikichu,
when this dream is over, you need

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to watch that because Jay wiped the
floor with him. It was phenomenal.

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I was in the back cheering.
I was like, Wow, I didn't

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expect this to be this good.
So I was super pleased with that,

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and I was really impressed by your
knowledge on the topic and your argumentation and

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how you got you basically demonstrated he
was arguing, as you said it in

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a circle. It was a perfect
line you kept using on them. What

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brought us here today so recently,
two Muslims were on the PVD podcast,

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very very big popular podcast. They
were debating two Christians, brother Rashid and

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Robert Spencer. The two Muslims were
Daniel Kikichu, who both Jay and I

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have debated, and Jake the Muslim
metaphysician, and a lot of claims were

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made by the Muslim side. One
claim really stood out, which is that

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Jake said, prior to Nicia,
there was no trinity. It was an

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evolved tradition. It came about later. And when I heard that, I

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was like, You've got to be
kidding me that that's just that's just not

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true. I'm thinking of like church
fathers that are just popping into my head.

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I'm like, what about this one? What this one? What about

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this one? I'm like, Jay, what were your thoughts when you heard

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that? Yeah, exactly, you
know, this is a common Muslim refrain.

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I got into Muslim apologetics. Maybe
it's kind of it's all still kind

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of new to me. It's only
about four years that I've really started debating

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Muslims. And I remember the maybe
the first time we had that debate.

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That was one of the first things
they said. And I'm just like it

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would take you. I mean,
if you were really serious about that,

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it would take you nowadays, with
the ease of information, I mean,

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you could go to New Advent,
you could go to you know, websites

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pretty easily and check and see within
five to ten minutes if there were Trinitarian

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citations prior to Nice Sea. And
one thing I'd like to do today is

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hopefully go beyond just the kind of
a quote mind not that it's necessarily wrong

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to have a quote mind showing it, but we can go a lot more

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into depth because it turns out in
the first, second, and third century,

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there's a wide swath of references to
these things throughout not just this or

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that specific church father, but many
church fathers throughout the Roman Empire, in

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a lot lot of different important sees
and even obscure fragments that are all relevant

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to see that there's a there's a
sort of a wide picture scope that we

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can get that they absolutely confess both
the deity of Christ and the deity of

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three persons, even if they don't
use the phrase trinity. Which I'd like

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to talk to about that a little
bit more because that relates to the Muslim

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debates because they always say, well, where is the word trinity in the

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modele? Where is where is trinity? And you know, ignatious or whatever,

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as if the word itself has to
be there when you can have the

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concepts there exactly. I couldn't have
said it better myself. And yeah,

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we will, we will definitely get
into that. I'm gonna just let you

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go all out because when I saw
the stream they made the Muslims made the

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case that that Christians are all super
divided, and I remember thinking, who

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could I do a stream with to
show one that Christians are more unified than

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people think but also knows the Patristic
Father as well. And the first person

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that off in my head with Jay
Dyer because I'm not seeing all your stuff,

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but when I've seen you do trinitarian
stuff or church history stuff, you're

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you're knowledgeable on that stuff. And
I was like, we're both streamers,

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we both do YouTube. I've been
studying church fathers a lot. As I

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said, I recently read this book
by Michael left Bird which I'll bring up

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Jesus among the Gods, which he
does a lot of great stuff on there

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about early church belief in the Trinity, and I was like, this will

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be a perfect way to just eat
the easily debundant. Just as you said,

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quote after quote, there is so
much we can go through. I

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mean, it's just so much to
say that there was no trinitarian theology prior

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to then I see it. It's
just it was mind blowing to me.

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There's also too this. Since that's
such a common objection, maybe this stream

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can become like the de facto go
to stream when people say, hey,

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you know, I got this Muslim, I got this, Joe's witness whatever.

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You know, they're saying there's no
such thing as a trinity before and

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I see you boom, You've got
this stream. We're going to have all

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the evidence it out for you.
We most certainly will. And if everyone

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who was interested in Jay's Jay Dare's
channel is a link below. He talks

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about Theatristic Fathers at times, and
again, Jay and I don't agree on

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everything. That's fine. We are
both Christians, we both profess christ we

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both believe in the Trying God,
and there's more we agree on. And

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work today is about agreement, unity
and the Body of Christ and working together

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to combat just errors. And thank
you for the Chuper chat another great Daniel

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Daniel apologetics. Uh, this live
stream is my pleasure machine. Did you

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did you see the recent debate between
Matt Diller, Hunty and Kikichu where big

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pleasure machine that's apostate profit and I
went into a whole big analysis of that

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and it just goes all right.
Yeah. I put that clip up when

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it got really heated on Twitter and
I got a lot of views from that,

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so that was amazing. Yeah,
all right, So what I figure

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we'll do is I will put up
the PbD podcast here. Uh, let

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me put this up here, So
yeah, we'll hey this, and then

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we're going to talk about Justin Martyr
a little bit because that's one guy who's

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specifically brought up. We're going to
cover that extensively. And then I'm gonna

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let Jay go wild here and he's
just gonna go through a patristic father here,

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patristic father there, and he'll share
his screen if he wants to.

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But there's a lot to cover here, and just everyone's aware, we're not

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going to cover every trinitarian quote from
church Father because if we were three out

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exactly exactly, there's so many.
But we're going to give you a really

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good survey you can use to combat, as Jay said, Muslim Jovia witnesses

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anti trinitarians who make this bogus claim
that the Trinity didn't exist before Nice out.

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So if anything else you want to
add, Jay or else, we

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can get right into it. No, I'm good, I'm ready, ready

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when you are all right. Yeah, I put it a little bit further

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back so people don't accuse us of
taking this out of context. They're finishing

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up the last thoughts they had before
they jump into the trinitarian aspect and people

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are start rejecting it after the finding
these little details and side. I want

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to give them an opportunity to respond
and then we can go to the next

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issue. Yeah. I'd like to
respond because Robert brought up Apostolic succession and

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claims that these doctrines have been held
you know since the beginning of Jesus.

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Jesus proclaimed his message to the apostles, and they passed it on to early

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church fathers and then all the way
down the line, and it's been this

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consistent message throughout, but on very
core doctrines which Daniel and I would actually

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like to spend more time on what
he called the ninety five percent, which

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is actually monotheism. Unfortunately, we
believe that Christians, Trinitarian Christians, are

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representing a veiled form of polytheism.
And you claimed that this was the consistent

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message over time. Well, let's
see what Justin Martyr, your own saint,

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says. He's in the beginning of
the second century. He was born

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in the year one hundred. In
his famous dialogue with Tripho, chapter fifty

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six, he says this, let's
see if his theology is the same as

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yours, Robert, I shall attempt
to persuade you, since you have understood

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the scriptures of the truth of what
I say that there is and that there

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is said to be another God and
Lord, subject to the Maker of all

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things, who is also called an
angel, because he announces to men whatsoever

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the Maker of all things, above
whom there is no other God, wishes

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to announce them. So Justin Martyr
says that Jesus is a second God,

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is another God, separate and distinct, and he is a lesser divinity.

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Now John Behaar, who I'm sure
you would know, is a famous Eastern

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Orthodox authority. Today he comments on
this passage, and he says this as

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it is not God himself who thus
appeared and spoke with man the word of

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God, who did all of these
things. For Justin quote another God and

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Lord besides the Maker of all,
who was also called his Angel, as

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he brings messages from the Maker of
all, above whom there is no other

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God than he says about this passage. The divinity of Jesus Christ, another

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God, is no longer that of
the Father himself, but subordinate to it

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a lesser divinity. Now that's just
one example. Justin Martyr, who you

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would consider a saint. You may
even pray to that, as the Eastern

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Orthodox pray today that saints. But
the reality is that your theology according to

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you, on the Trinity is actually
more correct than the person that you're praying

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to. And I can go through
a whole more list of on key doctrines

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like the doctrine of the incarnation,
the atonement, and the Trinity itself that

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the early Church authorities like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and on and

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on up until the fourth century,
never preached the doctrine of the Trinity,

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Sir, So when you make the
claim that your message has been consistent without

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what we see in the very beginnings
on the fundamental point of who God is,

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you did not have the same doctrine
to get to the fourth century.

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And that's why Christianity, because at
his very beginning was very comfortable with development.

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Oh who is God is a man? God, There's a God and

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man at the same time. So
if you can have those sorts of developments,

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of course you can have developments about
how laws are applied and whether or

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not we should be celebrating LGBTQ and
all of that. That's your history,

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sir, not at all all right. So that is the full clip.

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I played it all the way through
just to give you guys kind of an

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idea of what we're dealing with here. There was a lot of topics discussed

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in this podcast, that wasn't it. They didn't spend that much time on

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the Trinity at this point. They
kind of went back and forth on plenty

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of topics. But what Jay and
I want to do is we want to

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address this claim that Jake made,
which is that there was no doctrine of

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the Trinity in Justin Martyr Tretoli and
Arenaius, any of the church fathers prior

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to Nicea guys, that's just a
monsterly false. I don't know anybody to

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say that. Like, what are
your thoughts on that, Jay, Yeah,

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just opening thoughts. A couple of
things that I think were word concept

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fallacies when the Church Fathers at the
time of Nicia, for example, when

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they use the phrase in the Creed
God from God, light from Light,

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that's very similar to the phraseology of
justin that Jesus the logos is God from

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God, the Father. And the
reason that it's not multiple gods is that

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the word God is not a specific
now that only picks out the divine nature.

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This is actually an argument that Muslims
use where they collapse any term or

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predicate of the divinity to only refer
to the essence of God or the unitarian

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nature of God. So we all
agree that God's essence or nature is one,

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but the word God, even in
scripture for example, is generic.

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It can pick out a divine person, it can pick out the divine nature,

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it can pick out a divine energy, and it can even pick out

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non divine created things like angels,
demons, or humans. So the word

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God is a generic term that it's
meaning or referent is determined partially in terms

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of the context and the intention of
the writer, much like the phrase angels.

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So when Justin is calling Jesus the
Angel of the Lord, this is

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an apologetic argument. He makes a
lot of use of against Trypho, where

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he's trying to say, Hey,
your texts in the Old Testament demonstrate this

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distinct person, this distinct second hypostasis. That's not God the Father or Yahweh,

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but sent by God the Father Yahweh, and has the name and the

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nature of God the Father, and
is also called by derivation Yahweh. That

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Angel the Lord is the logos the
second person of Godhead. So I think

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Jake misunderstood the phrase God from God
must therefore signify by theism or try theism

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in terms of the trinity. It
doesn't. And then se secondly the phrase

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subordination. Things can be subordinated in
different ways, so the word subordinate does

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not necessitate ontological or metaphysical diminished status. So the assumption was that if the

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Father, for example, of Jesus
says is greater than I greater, how

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right if we look at the other
passages, Jesus says that he has all

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the same works and powers that the
Father has all the Father has he's given

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to the son, so we don't
we wouldn't want to say that that it's

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an ontological or metaphysical subordination, but
there could be what we call an ordinal

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or a causal subordination there where the
Father is the first in the triad,

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he's the source, he's the cause, and then the son, in the

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terms of the doctrine of the eternal
generation, derives his existence from all eternity

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from the Father. So that derivation, though, does not necessitate a lesser

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status in terms of his deity,
powers, operations, etc. Yeah,

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and I love the way you were
that you've done that in past ums.

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You're very good at wording and explaining
these terms here, so I do appreciate

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you going into that because you're very
good at explaining, like you know,

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with modes or subordination, that these
don't have one meaning. That you're used

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in different ways. And if you
look in the Old Testament, the word

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eloheim is used of God, it's
used of demons, it's used of Samuel

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when he's said and angels. It's
used of multiple ways. It's not just

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one way. But let's pull up
the quote here from Justin Martyr I want

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to talk a little bit about this, because that was one guy he specifically

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brought up. So you can see
here this is on New Advent when I

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pull this quote right up here,
and this is the party's talking about here

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where Justice is replying to Tripho,
and he says, I shall attempt to

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persuade you since you've understood scriptures of
the truth of what I say that there

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is and that there is said to
be another God, and the Lord's subject

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to the maker of all things,
who is called an angel. Now here's

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the thing I say about church fathers. Most of them don't really have the

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gift of brevity. Sometimes it takes
a while for them to get their thoughts

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out and elaborate on certain things.
And sometimes they've been misunderstood by even scholars

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in the past because of this.
Often you've got to keep reading. It's

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you just can't see a quote and
go aha, see this explains his whole

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theology. No, because if you
go down further, he continues to elaborate

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on these things. Chapter fifty six
is quite long. But when we get

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down to chapter sixty one, what
does Justin say Here? He says,

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I shall give you another testimony my
friends. From the scripture is that God

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begot before all creation of beginning,
who was a certain rational power proceeding from

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himself, who is called by the
Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the

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Lord, now the Son again,
Wisdom again an angel, then God,

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and then Lord and Logos. And
on another occasion he calls himself Captain when

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he appeared in human form through Joshua, the Son of Nothing, For he

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can be called by all those names, since he ministered to the Father's will,

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and since he was begot of the
Father by an act of will,

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just as we see happening among ourselves. For when we give out some word,

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we beget the word, yet not
by a decision so as to lessen

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the word, which remains in us
when we give it out. And just

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as we see also happening in the
case of fire, which is not lessened

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when it is kindled another, but
remains the same. And that which has

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been kindled by it, likewise appears
to exist by itself, not diminishing that

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from which it was kindled. The
Word of Wisdom, who is himself,

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this God, the God and of
the Father of all things, Word and

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Wisdom, in power and glory of
the beginner, we bear evidence to me,

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or will bear evidence to me.
And you can see right in this

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section Justin is continuing his thoughts when
he says talking about Jesus being God being

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an angel, he then goes back
to the whole ontological discussion and this is

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fire from fire, this is God
from very God. Where are we getting

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ideas that we see in the nice
and Creed, Well, it's coming from

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church fathers, like justin, God
of God, of God, very light,

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of very light, being of one
substance with the Father. You know,

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if you go to a traditional church, you're going to say the Nicene

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Crean every week like I do.
You're going to see something like this.

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And the Nicene Crean didn't come Danova
out of nothing, It came from church

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father. He's like Justin. In
this very section you can see very similar

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language. He's using fire as a
metaphor. The sun is fire from fire,

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Father from sun kind of thing.
They're the same substance. It's not

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something that is entirely different. And
again, as I said, sometimes it

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takes a while for a church father
to really get to explain his whole theology.

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Here. You just can't take one
quote and go Aha. You see

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he says, it's another God.
Well, that's not what he meant by

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God. He does not have this
polytheistic outlook, or he's not like an

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arian. He then goes on to
explain this is fire from fire, and

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you can also see this in Justin's
first apology. Justin's first Apology. Again,

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I've read this so many times because
I've had the deal with Jesus mythesis

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basically saying things like, oh,
this is just prooved that Jesus was just

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like pagan deities, and I'm like, all right, let's go back through

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this again. That's not what Justin
is saying. But in this he's very

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clearly pointing out that Christians are basically
believing in one God who is three persons.

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So he deals with the charge of
atheism. In chapter six he says,

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hence we are called atheists, and
we confess that we are atheists so

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far as the gods of this sort
are concern He's talking of the Roman gods,

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but not with respect to the most
true God, the Father of righteous

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and temperance and other virtues, who
is free from own purity, but both

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him and the Son who came forth
from Him, and taught us these things,

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and the host of the other good
angels who follow are made like to

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Him and the Prophetic Spirit. We
worship an a door, knowing them in

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reason and truth, declaring without grudging
to everyone who who wishes to learn and

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have been taught. If we go
to chapter thirteen, Justin goes further into

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this. So he's talking more about
Christ. He says, for example,

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let me pull it up here on
my thing. He says, our teacher

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of these things is Jesus Christ,
who is the son of the True God

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himself, and holding him in second
place, and the Prophetic Spirit in the

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third, we will prove, for
they proclaim our madness to consistentness, that

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we give to a crucified man a
place second to the unchangeable eternal God,

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the creator of all. For they
do not discern the mystery that is herein

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to which as we make it plain
to you, we pray, pray you

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to give heed. So basically he's
sorry wrong chapter that I was on fourteen.

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But basically he's pointing out in here
that we have basically placed Jesus Christ

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on the same level with the Father, the Creator. It's not this idea

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that he is subordinate or less or
somehow of a different substance. Justin is

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very clear. This is fire of
fire, God of God, very substance.

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Now, Jay rightly pointed out that
the son is subordinate to the Father

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in like a causal aspect or like
an economical aspect is so often used Trinitarian

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language, but he's not subordinate in
ontological aspect. I know the doctor Joshua

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Sigawati, who's another monarchical Trinitarian,
says they share all in the same divine

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essence, all ontological intrinsic properties,
and so there's nothing there that would be

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distinct or different. Jay, is
there anything you want to say about Justin

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or any of these passages, anything
you want me to go to. No,

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I think you stated exactly the way
I would describe it. It was

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good. Yeah, And I want
to put up some quotes here as well,

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and then I'm gonna let Jay go
all out on here. But I

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would do one thing I would say, is that a lot of what you

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saw there in Justin that Michael was
just going through, You're going to find

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a lot of similar passages in a
lot of these other church fathers that we

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look at. So it's not like, well, this is just justin speculation,

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and maybe he helped develop the Trinity. He played a role as a

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prominent martyr, and he's called in
our tradition Justin the philosopher, So he

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00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:03.880
was a pre eminent apologist. But
he's just one of you know, dozens

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as we'll see. So this is
not just an outliers what I'm trying to

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say exactly. That's definitely well,
I said, we're going to get to

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that. Before we do, I
want to get this some quotes, because

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Jake brought up a quote from John
bar Okay, and I will say,

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when I go through this scholarship,
I have seen some scholars accused Justin of

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00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.720
this. I don't think it's a
consensus you because there's a lot of pushback

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which will cover here. So for
example, Thomas White says, it's helpful

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in this respect to consider briefly some
key ideas of early Trinitarian thought. Not

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and Justin Martyr erinais respectively. Justin
Martyr clearly affirms that Jesus Christ is the

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pre existence son of God, and
he attributes personal agency to the son as

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one really distinct from the eternal Father
in person, not in name. Only

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Justin is not there for a Unitarian
theologian, and his thought, when judged

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by later standards, is unambiguously proto
Trinitarian. And he notes in his work

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by that he basically means the work
he's just not using the word trinity,

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but he's clearly teaching the theol that
we see after the church fathers come up

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with the work. One thing I'd
add to is he didn't say which John

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Barret book he's pulling for. He's
probably pulling from Way to Nicea, which

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I have. And it's also disingenuous
to give the impression that Bara was saying

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that, you know, Justin is
some kind of Unitarian or Trideist. In

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that book, you know, I
think he goes on to argue, I'm

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not at my normal home, so
I don't have my library. But in

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that book he goes on to argue
because it's all about the path to Nicia,

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and so actually the book is the
defense of the very things that we're

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talking about today. So he's not
the book is not Father Bear admitting that,

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oh, they're all anti Trinitarians.
And then now by Nicia becomes the

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Trinity. That's not what the book's
about ja. Are you saying that in

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a Muslim quote minds something? I
don't think it's ever happened. Are you

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00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.160
sure? I know it's hard to
believe because we know that they always strive

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to have the most scholarly accurate on
a sourcing. But yes, in this

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case, well, here's another great
quote. So this scholar here Bukar,

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he's basically responding to earlier scholars that
accused Justin of being more US subordinationists or

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a Unitarian. And in this section
of his book he states Justin himself clearly

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states that God alone is the object
of worship and honor. Father, son,

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and Spirit are certainly included in Justin's
scholar expedition of Christian doctrine. Justin

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is well acquainted with the Christian Trinitarian
profession of faith to give an account of

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the sunny deploys of Christological reading of
Biblical Theophanes, which enables him to proclaim

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Christ as the Lord who appeared to
the patriarchs and prophets before being incarnate from

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the Virgin Speak about the spirit,
he adopts a variety of approaches, one

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of which is the adaptation of early
Jewish and Christian forget I pronounce this word

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angeological speculations. I believe now in
this book, as I said, he's

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responding to people who've accused Justin of
not being trinitarian, and he notes the

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problem is that sometimes Justin diffuses words
like an angel or spirit differently depending on

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context. And that's happened where scholars
will say, well, if he's saying,

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you know, like an angel's a
spirit, he's saying Jesus is a

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spirit, then he's saying that Jesus
is not God. But that's just not

359
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true. And again this has been
addressed by a lot more recent modern scholarship.

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Here another great scholar I'm not going
to quote, but he has a

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00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:23.319
great chart in his book, Tarmo
Toomb and as you can see on this

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chart, he differentiates this between oneness
doctrines. Paulytheist in Triune at the top

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of his list in the first three
centuries of Christianity, who do we see

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there? Lo and behold Justin Martyr
he labels as trinitarian, along with Tertullian,

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Arenaeus another other church fathers that Jake
said did not profess to trinity.

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And actually he puts Novaian in there, which I actually might be wrong about

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this. I thought he was not
fully Trinitarian, but toomb Thems to think

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he is. So I'm gonna go
back and read in Novaian. After looking

369
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at this and going, well,
maybe I was wrong about it. I

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00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.519
thought maybe I misunderstood something in it. But it's my understanding that the Novationists

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did profess the Trinity because when one
of the arguments for that is that when

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Novationists were received back into the church, if they came back to the church,

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they didn't have to be necessarily rebaptized
or undergo even reordination, because the

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idea was that the Trinitarian profession was
at least still there because there were a

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schism. But I could be wrong
about that. Well, I was recently

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00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.480
reading in this book about this whole
topic, and he labeled novation In like

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00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:40.079
the opening Preludist, someone who was
considered heretical for some things. But I

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00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.799
have seen scholars say no, he
did a firm Trinitarian theology. So that's

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00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.480
something I want to go back and
check. One thing I would add is

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that to a lot of the quotes, when you see people like Jake or

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00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.519
Daniel when they come to these texts, and the Church fathers. They'll take

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00:27:53.599 --> 00:28:00.400
quotes about the eternal generation of the
sun and assume that that means that there's

383
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a temporal causation. So they actually
make a lot of the same moves that

384
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.839
the Aryans made at this time,
or Paul of Samisada, which who many

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00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:12.559
of these church fathers that we're going
to look at, that's who they're responding

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00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:17.599
against. And so the irony is
that they're they're making the very arguments of

387
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.400
the Unitarians and the Aryans and Paul
Samasada that the Church Fathers are arguing against,

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00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.720
and they're arguing that the Church fathers
are arguably their position of Unitarianism,

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00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.160
which is ironic. All right,
So if you want to share your screen

390
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.319
now, we can start going through
some of these church fathers, because Jake

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00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:38.400
Dinnages bring up Justin Martyr, which, as we've shown, he's clearly Trinitarian,

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and that's just again, ladies and
gentlemen, the tip of the iceberg.

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Go through his second apology, go
through more of the first apology.

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00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:52.400
You see very clearly him basically laying
down trinitarian theology for example, and one

395
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.000
more quote in first apology, chapter
sixty one, he says for in this

396
00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:57.400
name of God, the Father and
Lord of the universe, and of our

397
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.279
Savior Jesus Christ, and of the
Holy Spirit. They then receive the washing

398
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.640
of water, talking about baptism Trinitarian
baptism formula in the first Apology. But

399
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.400
if you want to get your screen
up here, Jay, I'll let you

400
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.839
go through some of these other church
fathers. Sure now remember and if I

401
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.400
forgot one of the people he listed, remind me he said that Erin as

402
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.160
Ertullian, justin Marty don't teach trinity. Did he list anybody else? I

403
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.640
don't recall him listing any of us. I'll double check while you're going through

404
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.839
this. Yeah. Yeah, So
one thing I would say too to the

405
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:34.799
audiences, keep in mind that the
word trinity or trinitass which I think there's

406
00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:38.079
some debate as to whether Tertullian or
one of the other church fathers used the

407
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:42.319
first. Maybe Theofulist I can't remember, but most people think it was Hertullian

408
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:45.799
that used it first. But there's
some debate about the dating of like Tertullian's

409
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.400
text. But most of these texts, as we said that we're going to

410
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.240
go through here, they're all dated
prior to Nicia. I'll have one reference

411
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.160
that's post Nicia, and I'll explain
why that's there. But they're not in

412
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.759
chronological order. They're just in the
order that I through and found them.

413
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.519
When I first got my church father
set back in the day, I remember

414
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:10.599
thinking when the cheft said the first
volume are two. It has all these

415
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:12.480
weird guys I'd never heard of,
because I'd heard of Jerome, and i'd

416
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:17.160
heard of Augustine, and I've heard
Ambrose and Basil. That you've got this

417
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:21.720
list of all these guys that some
of them are kind of wacky, some

418
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:23.319
of them are good. We're solid
for their time. But I never really

419
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:27.559
understood, well, why are these
characters in here? Now I understand years

420
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:32.559
later, you know a lot of
apologetics and debate. It's because so many

421
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:38.039
of these people in this early period
are going to be attesting to the controversial

422
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.279
doctrines that we're talking about today.
Controversial not for Christians but for the you

423
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.759
know, Muslims and people that take
issue with it. So we're gonna have

424
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.400
a lot of people that you haven't
heard of, but they're figures that are

425
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:53.720
very valuable for their historical witness and
sometimes a sort of historical witness, by

426
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:57.799
the way, does not mean that
they're all correct, that they're all infallible,

427
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:02.559
or that they we don't believe the
Church fathers are infallible or that they

428
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:07.319
didn't make theological mistakes at times.
And some of these people even ended up

429
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:12.759
deviating and becoming heterodox, like Tatian
or even a Tertillion himself ended up going

430
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:18.039
outside of the Church of his time
and becoming a Montonist. So the first

431
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.599
quote we'll look out here is I
think you actually put your screen back in

432
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.759
a shared While you do that,
I do want to put up this super

433
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:27.680
chat. I think you'll appreciate this. Jay, thank you for the very

434
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:30.440
generous super chest spaghetti. Sam.
Hey, Jay and Michael, thank you

435
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.319
everything you guys do. You were
both instrumental in my journey to Christ from

436
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.839
Islam. So it's exciting to see
you brothers working on a project together.

437
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:41.799
May God bless you, bless you
both and strengthen you in your work.

438
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.759
Really appreciate that, Samon. Yeah, I'm really glad to be working with

439
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.000
Jay again. I think we have
more in agreement and I want to celebrate

440
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:51.640
that. Okay, can we see
that quote there? Yep? They got

441
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:55.680
right there, all right. So
our first quote here is from Athenagoras,

442
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:00.799
and this is late second century,
and this is from the doctor document called

443
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:06.680
the Plea, and this is kind
of an early apologetic defense work. And

444
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:12.240
you'll notice that he states again this
is this is very early late second century,

445
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.240
so one eighties, one nineties.
We are not atheists. In fact,

446
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.440
we acknowledge one God, but we
also acknowledge, as he says here,

447
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.839
the logos from the God, and
that logos is also united to that

448
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:29.880
third person, the Holy Ghost.
And so this is just a great I'm

449
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:32.119
not going to read this whole passage, but you know you'll see here that

450
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.640
we have the trinitarian formula of worshiping
Father's son and Holy Ghost. So Athenagoris

451
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:42.519
as an excellent attestation here. You
know, it's you know, it's funny.

452
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:45.359
Jay, I literally have that quote
pulled up just in case you didn't

453
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:47.039
have it. I'm like, that
was like the first one I was going

454
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:50.960
to go to. Is perfect.
Yeah, I mean, and I want

455
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:55.240
to remind your too. Remember this
is not exhaustive. So there's like like

456
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:59.039
Michael, so there's so many of
these that you really have to kind of

457
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.599
you know, suss them out.
So let's go to the next one here,

458
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:07.400
number two. This is from the
apology of Saint Aristides, and he's

459
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:13.359
another second century church father. And
what you'll notice about this text is that

460
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:15.599
we don't just find the reference to
the du to Christ, but you'll notice

461
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:22.440
also virgin birth and the incarnation of
the Son of God. So the Christians

462
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:24.960
and trace the beginning of their line
the religion from Jesus the Messiah. He

463
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:29.119
is named Son of God most hot
and it is said that God came down

464
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:34.519
from heaven. So notice he is
referred to as fully divine, and from

465
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:38.000
a Hebrew virgin. He clothes himself
with flesh. So notice this is a

466
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:45.119
fully orthodox confession of the incarnation,
virgin birth, human nature, and that

467
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:50.920
he's fully divine. And again that
is from the Apology of Saint Aristides.

468
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:57.000
So the next quote I'll pull up
here is number three, and this is

469
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:04.720
from the late two hundreds the writer
called Arnobius, and Arnobius writes that it

470
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:07.760
is agreed that Christ performed all those
miracles which he wrought without any aid from

471
00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:13.039
external things, without the observance of
any ceremonies, without any definite mode of

472
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:16.079
procedure, but solely by the inherent
might of his authority, as was the

473
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:21.559
proper duty of the True God.
And so the miracles of Christ in this

474
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:27.440
early apologetic treatise late two hundreds,
as you can see here, the miracles,

475
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.679
according to him, attest to the
divine status of the Son of God.

476
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:35.199
Now, not every quote, by
the way, is necessarily going to

477
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:39.199
be trinitarian. In fact that sometimes
we'll see a writer in a couple of

478
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.880
paragraphs he might mention father and son, and then a little bit down in

479
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.719
the work he'll mention, for example, the Holy Spirit. And it's just

480
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:51.480
like Michael said, we do that
because we want to see the full context.

481
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:53.920
You know, if we just quote
mind and we found, for example,

482
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:58.119
a church father saying, you know, as say many of the post

483
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:01.320
Apostolic writers in their letters, like
Ignatious or Clement, you know, they

484
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:06.320
might I think Ignacious for example,
starts many letters like uh, you know,

485
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:08.480
from God, our Father in the
name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

486
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:10.760
And you might say, oh,
well, he didn't mention holy Spirit,

487
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.880
so he doesn't believe in the Holy
Spirit. Well no, if you go

488
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:16.880
down later in the letter, he
does. So it's not like there's some

489
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:22.199
law that you have to mention,
you know, father and son together in

490
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:24.199
spirit altogether, or else you don't
believe in the trinity. These are just

491
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:28.639
kind of, you know, kind
of silly arguments that people pull up.

492
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.760
Are So the next one, number
four, this is Saint Afra at the

493
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:37.480
Persian and this is late two hundreds, and you'll notice that he talks about

494
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:43.159
the unbelief of Jews and Gentiles,
and then he says that exodustry, I

495
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:45.639
am God, there is none beside
me. You shall worship no other God.

496
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:51.880
And then he says, if you
are, you are opposing God,

497
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.039
and that you call a man God. Concerning these things, as far as

498
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:58.280
I can tell, I will instruct
you about them, that while we grant

499
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:01.079
that he is a man, Christ
is fully man, and while we honor

500
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.960
him and we call him God and
Lord, yet not in any novel fashion.

501
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.000
In fact, Jesus our Lord,
is God, the Son of God,

502
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:12.719
the King, the King's son,
the light of light. And of

503
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.800
course, in I think the Orthodox
Church, Saint Afred has a pretty famous

504
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:22.679
role. He's very highly regarded.
And so you'll notice here again just a

505
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:30.559
sampling from his Persian work, The
demonstrations, and so we'll move on to

506
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:35.960
the next one. Here number five. This is the very famous church father

507
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:40.320
that was the tutor and the mentor
to Athanasius. So you might have heard

508
00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:45.880
of Athanasius and Anthonatius because he's sort
of the pre eminent church father at the

509
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:50.320
Council of Nicia, but his mentor
prior to Nicia in the two hundreds was

510
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:55.559
Saint Alexander of Alexandria. Now Alexander
in the two hundreds famously argued that if

511
00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.800
God is an eternal father, then
by necessity he must have an eternal son

512
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.239
if the word father is to mean
anything. And this is an argument that

513
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:10.840
Saint Athanasius picks up in his trinitarian
apologetics. But you'll notice he says that

514
00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:20.039
here the deity of Christ brings us
to what here the knowledge of the Trinity.

515
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:23.840
So again pre Nicia, pre Athanasius, this is mid two hundreds,

516
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:30.280
Saint Alexander of Alexandria that the that
the incarnation of Christ brings us to the

517
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.599
knowledge of the Trinity. Sorry,
and again remember that not every quote has

518
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:40.400
to have Trinity present, because when
you read these writings, and in fact,

519
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:45.960
Alexander is kind of you could argue
he's the father of the father of

520
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:52.840
Nicia, and so the trinitarian apologetics
that Athanasius argues so forcefully in all of

521
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:57.639
his writings is really just from his
mentor Alexander, again from the mid two

522
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:01.119
hundreds. Next one is This one's
a little odd, but I thought it

523
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:04.480
was worth putting in here. No
excuse me, not this one. I'm

524
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.599
thinking of the Shepherd of Hermas,
the Epistle of Barnabas here in chapter This

525
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:12.119
is I think chapter twelve, and
it notices that the deity of Christ.

526
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:15.960
And this is believed to have been
written anywhere from between seventy to one twenty

527
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:20.119
a d. But you'll notice here
all three persons are reference. We have

528
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.800
a reference to Christ here as that
Moses is a type of Christ. And

529
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:30.320
then we have the phrases in those
famous Messianic prophecies that we've made so much

530
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:34.320
use of over the years against Muslims
and in the podcast that we've done with

531
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:39.400
people like Sam Shamun. We noticed
that the personal Spirit speaks here, and

532
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.719
this is chapter twelve. I think
there's also a chapter six which says the

533
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:49.159
same thing. But you'll notice that
the Lord sits at my right hand.

534
00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.639
This is, of course, referring
to the ascension of Christ. This is

535
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.199
sided many times the New Testament about
Christ when he ascends right sitting around,

536
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:01.199
and will make your enemies your footstool. But all so behold how David calls

537
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:06.920
him Lord and Son of God.
And then there was a I thought the

538
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.000
Holy Spirit was mentioned in here.
Somewhere does it not mention the spirit.

539
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:17.960
Maybe holy Spirit is mentioned in the
other paragraph, but it does note that

540
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:23.039
it uses the reference, for example
of Colossians that all things are to him

541
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:27.440
for him. So this is another
deity passage pointing out the deed to Christ.

542
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:30.960
So let's move on to the next
one here, and I'm number seven.

543
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:36.960
This is a lesser known fragment of
a writer around the year two hundred

544
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:42.320
named Caius, and Caius has sided
in Eusebius. And so this two hundred

545
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:50.000
era fragment gives attestation to the deity
Christ. The apostles themselves received and taught

546
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.320
the things which these men now maintain. So here we have mid Is about

547
00:39:52.320 --> 00:40:00.719
two hundred and the bishop Rick.
The apostolic succession that goes from thirteenth in

548
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:06.320
Rome, from Peter to his successor
zeph Rhinus in the day of Caius writing

549
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.480
this, and that's relevant two because
you'll notice that Jake made the comment that

550
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:14.760
there's not apostolic succession, but here
we have a reference in the Fragment of

551
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:21.119
Caius. But you'll also notice,
I think in the next section if you

552
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:25.880
if you go to the Fragment of
Caius and you scroll down to chapter three,

553
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:29.920
I thought I had that one on
here. Maybe I didn't clip that

554
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:34.559
one, but chapter three of Caius
mentions the deity of the Holy Spirit as

555
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.519
well. I don't know if I
should pull that up or not. Let

556
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:39.719
me see, let me go,
Yeah, you can pull real quick.

557
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:45.159
I just want to say, and
notice, like how many Like we're just

558
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:46.480
thinking, like Jay's remembering, oh
yeah, this one in chapter three,

559
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.280
Oh yeah, this other guy.
Because there's just so much less in gentlemen,

560
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:54.519
Every week, I attend an evening
prayer service and we always sing the

561
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:59.320
False Hillern. It's a very old
hymn. I looked it up. Scholars

562
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:05.159
date at two Bay. Basically they
think that Diocletian persecution so pre Nicia around

563
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.840
basically the end of the third century, turn of the fourth century. What

564
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:13.199
do we say in the foss hilleron
we praise God, Father, Son,

565
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:17.400
and Holy Spirit right then and there, pre nice and early hymn, Saint

566
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:21.880
Basil said, as it was a
long standing tradition by the time he came

567
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.719
on to the scene. So,
yeah, there's a there's another just another

568
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:29.159
phrase I just thought up off the
top of my head, thinking of just

569
00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:34.920
another one. There's so many here. So here we remember. So chapter

570
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:39.960
one here mentions the deity of Christ, the word Christ, the Word of

571
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:49.960
God. And then when we scroll
down to three, you have the reference

572
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:54.719
to the dictated by the Holy Spirit. Now he's talking about certain groups that

573
00:41:54.719 --> 00:42:00.199
don't believe this, but he's saying
that they think themselves, why, easier

574
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:04.320
than the Holy Spirit, because they
don't believe that the Holy Spirit spoke and

575
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.519
inspired this scriptures. So in other
words, we have a reference to the

576
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:12.079
personhood and agency of the Holy Spirit. And so the Holy Spirit is not

577
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.039
a force. Again, if you
when we when we read the whole context

578
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:20.159
of these fathers, we find them
teaching exactly what we say. Let's move

579
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:23.159
on to number eight. This is
probably well known to a lot of people.

580
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:29.039
This is the letter of Saint Clement
of Rome to the Corinthians. And

581
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:31.480
you'll notice here in chapter forty two, the apostles preached the Gospel to us

582
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:36.480
from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus
Christ, from God. Christ was therefore

583
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.280
sent forth by God by this appointments
in an order the way according will of

584
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:43.440
God, having never received these orders, fully assured by the Resurrection, and

585
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:46.079
established in the Word of God,
with the full assurance of the Holy Spirit.

586
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:50.960
So we have Father, Son and
Holy Spirit there. But that's not

587
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:53.480
the only quote. We also want
to look at. Is that the First

588
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:59.920
Clement or second Clement. It's I'm
sorry, it's the letter of Clement to

589
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:04.639
the Corinthians. So let me see
I can pull it up over here we

590
00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:16.960
need to. It's the first letter. And because New Advent was kind of

591
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.960
going with the line of reasoning that
the rest of them are potentially spurious,

592
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.360
I just I just stuck to the
first epistle. Yeah. One thing I

593
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:30.679
will say about the second Epistle though
even a lot of scholars don't think Clement

594
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:34.639
actually wrote that. However, they
still dated to the second century exactly.

595
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.119
And it's again it calls Jesus God. Right, Yeah, that's that's a

596
00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:43.320
great point. Yet even the even
the a lot of the pseudopograa and sort

597
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:46.400
of the you know, doubted text
from this period as well, back up

598
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:51.119
a lot of what we're saying.
I just I just tended to focus on

599
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.599
the ones that were less controversial,
But you're you're right that they also make

600
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:59.280
that same point now here, and
I think I'll see forty it's not twenty

601
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:07.119
six. Forty six is the other
great passage where we have he says that

602
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:09.840
you are the elect of God.
Why are there strives, tumult schisms?

603
00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:13.280
Are they not? Have we not
all one God in Christ? Is there

604
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.159
not one spirit of grace poured out
upon us all? And not one calling

605
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:21.400
in Christ? We do not divide
the members of Christ. But you'll notice

606
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:27.239
so between forty two and forty six
you have the reference to the deity of

607
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:31.599
Christ and to the Holy Spirit,
and thus all three persons referred to as

608
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:37.000
divine, and you could say triadic
basically. Yeah, there's the rest of

609
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:45.320
that one. So we'll move on
now to number ten. This is an

610
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:49.679
interesting one because a lot of people
aren't familiar with He was actually the Bishop

611
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:52.679
of Rome in the mid two hundreds. Is the Saint Dionysius of Rome,

612
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:57.760
and he actually wrote this is really
important because he wrote it treat us at

613
00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:01.360
that time against the Sabellians, much
Tertullian had written against the Sibelians, and

614
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:07.840
so any of the treatises against the
Sibelians in this pre Nicing period are crucial

615
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:13.679
because there's some of the most forceful
and consistent Trinitarian theological argumentation. And so

616
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:19.320
you'll notice in this passage against the
Sibelians from Saint Dionysius of Rome again two

617
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:23.159
hundreds, it would truly be unjust
a dispute against those that divide and ran

618
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:28.960
the monarchy. He's talking about the
monarchy of God the Father and in the

619
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.719
Church of God, as we're into
three powers and distinct substances. Now he's

620
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.480
saying that if you split God into
three distinct substances in the sense of tri

621
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:43.280
theism, he's twice calling that tri
theism, and then that three deities,

622
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:46.519
you would destroy the Trinity. So
he's not saying that he's a modalist.

623
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:51.920
He's speaking against tri theists. But
he goes on to say that those who

624
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:55.000
preachadis the Word of God among you, so to speak, are opposed to

625
00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:00.159
the opinion of Sabellius Now this is
important because remember Sabellian is a modalist,

626
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:07.360
and modalists essentially teach Unitarianism, and
so it's not absolutely identical to the Muslim

627
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:13.800
view of God, but it's a
version of Unitarianism. Where As probably everybody

628
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:17.320
knows Sabellius and his followers, there
was more radical guys like Praxeis and the

629
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:22.639
others. Thing they taught that the
names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

630
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:28.280
were just masks or names for an
absolutely simple Unitarian God. So notice that

631
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:31.920
these bishops, in this case the
Bishop of Rome, and we'll see later

632
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:36.480
there's also this also occurs with the
Bishop of Alexandria at this time, are

633
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:40.800
explicitly reject rejecting the Unitarian argumentation.
That was the very thing that Jake said.

634
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:46.280
Supposedly, these church fathers of this
time period were Unitarian developing a Trinitarian

635
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:52.000
or tritheistic God. According to Jake's
argument, that's not what's going on here.

636
00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:55.320
In fact, he says that as
he defines the Sabellian position, he

637
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:59.039
says that the Son is the Father, and the Father isn't the Son.

638
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:04.760
They divide the unity into three different
substances, absolutely separated from one another,

639
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:09.159
and he says that it is essential
that the divine words should be united to

640
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:13.480
the God of all, and that
the holy spirits should abide and dwell in

641
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:19.480
God, and the Divine Trinity should
be reduced and gathered into one. So

642
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:23.280
he's talking about the errors of the
civilians, and he's saying that the correct

643
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:29.960
view that the Church of Rome at
this time holds is the Trinitarian confession,

644
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:35.719
as for indeed rightly know that the
Trinity is declared in the Divine Scriptures.

645
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:40.079
So here you have a two hundreds
arabishop of Rome confessing that the Trinity is

646
00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:45.639
the doctrine of the Scriptures. He's
not arguing this from Greek philosophy. He

647
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:50.679
believes that this is a extegetical argument. And many of the Church fathers,

648
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:55.480
You'll notice this is another important point. The Church fathers are using the same

649
00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.519
Extrajesus we do when they cite the
texts. They're citing the text that we

650
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:06.119
site. They're citing the text that
we site that they believe teaches the Trinity,

651
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:08.400
and they are fully aware that it
doesn't use the word of Trinity,

652
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:13.639
because it doesn't have to. The
fathers of this period extity in the Scripture

653
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:15.559
is the exact same way that we
do. This one, I think is

654
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.599
one of the really strong ones,
but it's not the only one. So

655
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:27.800
we'll move on to another quote.
I think this is also Dionysia. This

656
00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:36.280
is Dionysius quote to Rome writing to
Bishops Sixtus in his epistle, and he

657
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:45.800
says that he's talking about the heresy
of certain groups that would baptize and rebaptize

658
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.920
in weird ways. He talks about
it again the Sabellian heretics. You notice

659
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:54.480
here that's the modalist Unitarians of that
time. For since the doctrine which lately

660
00:48:54.519 --> 00:49:00.199
says been foot set foot in May
the city of Metapolis, or full blasted

661
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:04.440
me against Almighty God and the fall
of our Lord Us Christ, full unbelieved

662
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:07.920
towards the only begotten son and the
firstborn of every creature, the word made

663
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:13.039
man. So here we have John
One's logos theology, which takes away the

664
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:19.000
perception of the Holy Spirit. So
here you have again trinitarian confession from Pope

665
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.960
Dionysius of Rome. Next one,
This one is a little weird, but

666
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:29.000
I'm including it because it could potentially
you could possibly read it in a correct

667
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:34.400
way. It is also possible that
it might be read in a heterodox way

668
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:37.639
because the language is a little ambiguous, but I'm including it just because it

669
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:45.079
is an early reference in the Shepherd
of Hermus to the to the deity of

670
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:51.000
Christ and the incarnation. So although
his terminology is a little ambiguous here he

671
00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:57.800
does you could read this as the
Holy Spirit basically deifying the flesh that the

672
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:05.159
Son of God assumed. And so
shopherd of Hermas again dated very early in

673
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:07.320
this like around believes to be around
one hundred or ninety one hundred. You

674
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:12.119
know, I can't remember it's a
ninety one hundred. I think it's would

675
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:15.000
be after the Dedcay, but yeah, it would be a ninety one hundred

676
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:20.320
something around there. So you'll notice
that a lot of this, what it's

677
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:27.159
talking about is the Holy Spirit's relationship
to the flesh that Christ took on,

678
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:32.559
right, And it's talking about that
flesh being in some way partaking of the

679
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:39.719
Holy Spirit and being a tabernacle within
which the Holy Spirit could can dwell as

680
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:44.719
you see here. But it does
include this notion of the deity of Christ

681
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:49.480
in this triadic relationship between father,
son and Spirit. So it is an

682
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:57.000
early attestation to the Triadic Confession.
So next one up is, uh,

683
00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:02.320
let's see, is this skipped a
thirteen. I don't see a thirteen.

684
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:06.199
I think this is supposed to be
thirteen. Let's see if this is,

685
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:10.280
this is ignacious and so this is
fourteen. So I think the last two

686
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:15.239
we're just there's another one that I've
forgot to. I know what it is.

687
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:24.079
Thirteen is a discussion of Hippolytus of
Rome on the Holy Theophany. And

688
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:29.039
this is relevant because Holy Theophany,
of course, is you know, in

689
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:31.400
the Orthodox Church, it's a feast, a very early feast. It's it's

690
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:35.400
a it's a feast here in Rome
as well in the early two hundreds.

691
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:40.199
And Hippolitus also was a controversial Bishop
of Rome, but he ended up being,

692
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:43.760
in our view, a saint,
so he ended up on the good

693
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:47.480
side of things. And his discourse
on the Theophany here, which is the

694
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.000
feast of christ baptism. If you
don't know, the church has always seen

695
00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:54.119
I'm talking about you in the audience, if you don't know, the theophany

696
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:58.960
is really a manifestation of the divine
So when we talked about the Old Testament,

697
00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:02.199
Angel the Lord appearing. You know
that the cloud, the fire.

698
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:07.920
We believe in the Orthodox Church,
those are divine manifestations of God in time

699
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:09.639
and space, particularly the second person
of the Godhead. So we don't think

700
00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:14.440
that it's, you know, the
person of the Father. It is explicitly

701
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:17.000
the person of the Son. As
Jesus argues in John five to the Pharisees,

702
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:22.280
no man sees God at any time, but he says by implication to

703
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.239
the Pharisees there that the Son of
Man was basically I was the one basically

704
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:31.039
talking to Moses and talking to Abraham. And so you'll notice there that the

705
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:37.400
feast of they ofteny. In this
this brief homily, here is an argumentation

706
00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:43.960
proving the not just the deity of
the Son and is a divine the divinity

707
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:47.760
of the Sun becoming acarnate, but
also the Triadic confession that the Holy Spirit

708
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:53.320
is necessary when we do the baptismal
confession, right, we baptize the name

709
00:52:53.320 --> 00:53:04.760
of the Father's Son and the Holy
Spirit. This early early uh homily on

710
00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:09.119
the Thofen, he is really making
the trinitarian argumentation that we would make again

711
00:53:09.159 --> 00:53:15.320
in two hundreds. So that was
also and als a rom Refutation of all

712
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.880
Heresies. Chapter ten, he says, the word alone of this God is

713
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:23.159
from God himself, wherefourth also the
word is God being the being of God.

714
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:25.960
So there's another early quote from a
policy thank you. Yeah, there's

715
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.400
there's a lot in all, just
has quite a bit. He's also got

716
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:34.039
a commentary on Daniel, which is
pretty fascinating. There's all kinds of references

717
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:39.239
to the Messianic prophecies and how they're
fulfilled in the deed of Christ and his

718
00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:43.440
writings. But yeah, I feel
free to bust in with anything that I've

719
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.599
missed or that you think should be
mentioned. Next up, I think this,

720
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:51.679
So this is ignacious savaniant. These
are pretty well known. These are

721
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:57.320
dated anywhere from one hundred to one
fifty in terms of the manuscripts that are

722
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:02.239
present. And let's see the first
one here fourteen. Will notice that he

723
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:07.639
says, greetings in you know,
the God, the Father, and our

724
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:12.840
Lord, Jesus Christ, and then
our much beloved God, Jesus Savior,

725
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:15.880
the followers of God, the Blood
of God. So we're talking about the

726
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:27.880
incarnate Christ here. And then companion
to this quote is the next quote here,

727
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:30.599
which I think, yeah, this
is the same letter, or this

728
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:36.039
might be to the Magnesians, but
he says, for it's a habit of

729
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:38.119
carrying about the name of Jesus Christ
and wicked guile somewhere in the habit of

730
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:42.440
doing this while they practice unworthy of
God. And then he goes on to

731
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:45.400
say that there is one physician who
is possessed of flesh and spirit and not

732
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:51.199
made God, existing in the flesh
both of Mary and of God. Possible

733
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:54.559
and then impossible, our Lord Jesus
Christ, again clearly, clear as day

734
00:54:54.639 --> 00:55:00.920
called God. And I think also
in this previous one to the Ephesians,

735
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:07.199
if you go down to chapters four
and five, he references the personhood and

736
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:10.159
deity of the Holy Spirit as well. Let me make sure if that's right.

737
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:20.320
Trying to think if I wrote anything
down on Ignacious, I have stuff

738
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:22.440
on the dedicate. We can get
too later. But yeah, yeah,

739
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:28.079
I think that I kind of one
one dedicate quote here. But so I

740
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:31.760
think I have this wrong, that
I'm actually taught it's actually not Ignacious four

741
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:36.800
and five. I think it's the
discourse on Theophany has a reference to the

742
00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:40.239
Holy Spirit. Anyway, I'll move
on past that to the next one in

743
00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:44.679
my list, So just so you
guys can see there there is so much

744
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:49.119
and sometimes confusing because there's just so
much to juggle when it comes to quote

745
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.159
from the Church fathers, to say
we don't have this trinitarian theology and the

746
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:59.960
Church is like ignoring an embarrassment of
riches that we have. Exactly sixteen.

747
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:05.000
This is ignacious letter to the Magnesians. And you'll notice the triad present here

748
00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:07.239
as well. Study therefore to be
established in the doctrine of the Lord and

749
00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:10.880
the Apostles, and so that so
all things, whatever you do, my

750
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.920
prosperant flesh and spirit, and faith
in love in the Son and the Father,

751
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:19.239
and in the Spirit the beginning,
in the end, and again he

752
00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:23.360
says, Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, the Apostles,

753
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:27.280
to the Father, and to the
Spirit. So again this is very

754
00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:31.559
early letter to the Magnesians, a
clear triadic reference. Now the ones in

755
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:36.719
Irenaus, there's so many that I
just kind of have it. Yeah,

756
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:38.280
right, So when we get to
Irenais, which is like one ad a

757
00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:44.119
d when he does against Harris Ces. Yeah, when Jake brought up Aaronais,

758
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:46.559
I was like, are you kidding? That one was really absurd because

759
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.119
first of all, you know,
against Harris's is like five or six hundred

760
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:55.079
pages. The first two or three
hunter pages is him recounting all the Gnostic

761
00:56:55.159 --> 00:57:00.360
sects of that time and all the
variations of them. And then by about

762
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:05.519
books four and five and six he
gets into you know, strict theology,

763
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:07.719
and so you'll notice God the Father
in his words. So here we have

764
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:10.800
the deity of Christ. But again
there's so many of these. So this

765
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:15.679
is the example I have here is
five eighteen. But i'll just list a

766
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:20.199
few for you if you want to
go. Book two point one refers to

767
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:25.239
the monarchia of the Father. Book
three one and two refers to the triadic

768
00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:30.039
personal reality of Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. Book five eight refers to

769
00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:35.360
the deity and divinity of the Holy
Spirit. Book five eighteen refers to the

770
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:40.679
deity of Christ. And so there's
just really too many in Iranaisis against heresies.

771
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:45.280
But you can find those pretty easily
if you just start looking through them.

772
00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:51.679
Next one is another really early witness. This is a fragment from one

773
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:58.880
one eighty eight, and this is
the epistle to Aristides. Actually I think

774
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.800
it's a it's a full brief epistle, but he says, the child leaped

775
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:07.360
and left at our caresses and words, and we need have been the motherfield

776
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:10.119
farewell he had shown us on or
we testified as who he is a divine

777
00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:15.119
leader. And then he goes on
to say that we made speed to depart

778
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:17.119
in all earnestness, we reported jerusum
all that we've seen. Behold then the

779
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:22.000
great things that we have told you
regarding Christ, Christ, our Savior,

780
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:23.639
who was made known to God and
man. And so this is just an

781
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:30.880
early reference to the divine leader,
the person of Christ in this Julius Africanus

782
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:38.880
of one eighty a d. Nineteen
is excuse me, this is this is

783
00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:42.719
the fragment. This is Fragment nineteen. We don't know who this is.

784
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:45.239
It's just a fragment from this time
period. It might be Julius Africanist.

785
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:50.599
I'm not sure. But the fragment
says, for we know that the measure

786
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.079
of these words are not ignorant,
grace and faith giving, thanks to the

787
00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:57.079
Father who is episode honest his creatures, and the Savior of all, to

788
00:58:57.159 --> 00:59:01.159
whom be glory majesty with the Holy
Spirit. Again very early you can find

789
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:08.679
this on here. Yeah, and
this is a this is a great website.

790
00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:14.000
It goes through so many of the
letters in the works of the Church

791
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:16.400
fathers, and it's all it's all
open access. You can just go check

792
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:20.360
this stuff out. And so yeah, we're using the site, so you

793
00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:23.199
guys can just go through some of
this stuff if you want and just see

794
00:59:23.719 --> 00:59:27.320
over and over again, Church Father, if the church fault, you have

795
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:31.880
these Trinitarian formulas over and over again, calling Jesus God, talking up the

796
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:36.840
Holy Spirit or the Prophetic Spirit,
talking about the monarchy of the Trinity.

797
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:43.719
It's all there. One of the
earliest most important treatises for the doctor doctor

798
00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:46.599
at Trinity proper that in terms of
its kind of breadth and scope, is

799
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:52.280
Tritullian's work written around one ninety,
which is actually a large defense of the

800
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:55.800
Trinity. So I remember we're told
by Jake and the Muslims that the Trinity

801
00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:00.679
doesn't exist prior and Icia. But
they'll also turn around some times to say

802
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:04.440
that Tertullian invented the Trinity, which
is also not true. But you'll notice

803
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:09.400
in the book is called the Catholic
Doctrine of the Trinity and Unity. This

804
01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:15.920
is against Praxius. And remember Praxius
was an early radical Sabellian or Modalist.

805
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:19.360
So the very position that Jake and
these people are saying is true, this

806
01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:24.239
unitarian modalist type of position, is
actually the very thing that Tertullian's against Praxius

807
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:29.760
is arguing against. And they themselves
even admit this when they turn around half

808
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:34.119
the time and say that Tertullian invented
the Trinity, So it can't you can't

809
01:00:34.119 --> 01:00:37.159
have it both ways. He's not
an anti trinitarian, anti trinitarian, and

810
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:45.119
everybody knows that he's very important for
the early development trinquet with regards to Trutulian.

811
01:00:45.239 --> 01:00:47.920
Sometimes and Muslims will say, oh, this just all came from Greek

812
01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:52.440
philosophy. Well, Tertullian was adamant
against us in Greek philosophy. He's famous

813
01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:54.960
for saying, what has Athens to
do? What you do with Jerusalem?

814
01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:58.880
Yeah, he thought fate that,
Yeah, these two were really incompatible.

815
01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:06.119
That the points of the earliest systematic
defender of the trinity, exactly as you're

816
01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:08.760
saying, really says that it's nothing
to do with philosophy, and he relies

817
01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:13.760
heavily on argumentation from scripture, as
do all of these church fathers at this

818
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:17.119
time. Remember this is this is
church fathers at this time. Doing extradus

819
01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:20.800
is the way we do, right, So they're not doing you know,

820
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:24.400
you notice they don't do them the
Muslim apologetic of picking and choosing. They'll

821
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:30.239
look at Okay, if Jesus says, for example, that he's of the

822
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:32.719
Father or the Father's greater, they'll
also balance that out, as you saw

823
01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:39.920
with Michael using the later passages in
Justin they balance out that those relationships between

824
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:45.400
the persons. Okay, This next
one is an early epistle in the mid

825
01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:50.159
two hundreds, but it's a product
of an entire synod. And this is

826
01:01:50.199 --> 01:01:53.400
the product of the Synod of Antioch
in two seventy two, and it's the

827
01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:59.119
Epistle of Malchion. And the reason
that it's relevant is because oh wait,

828
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:01.079
excuse me, this is I gotta
go back to Yeah, this is it.

829
01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:08.599
Let me just pull it up from
over here. Yeah, yeah,

830
01:02:08.679 --> 01:02:12.360
no worries. I mean again,
when we're going through church father guys,

831
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:16.000
I mean they did not have the
give of brevity. They go very long

832
01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:20.000
and very hard, and sometimes you're
like, wait, where was that?

833
01:02:20.199 --> 01:02:22.199
Oh yeah, here it is like
it's that kind of thing. Yeah,

834
01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:27.280
So the Epistle of Malchion is the
Senate of Antioch. I guess Malkion is

835
01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:34.880
presumably Bishop of Antioch, and he
this two seventy two, again about fifty

836
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:40.199
years before Nicias condemning Paul of Samisada. And Paul of Samisada was an early

837
01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:45.199
anti Trinitarian sort of radical, you
know, Arian, you could say,

838
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:51.599
proto Aryan maybe, and Paul Samisada
railed against the deity Christ. And this

839
01:02:51.679 --> 01:02:58.000
whole deposition from the Senate of Andioch
is predicated on the deity of Christ to

840
01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:02.199
reject the Unitarian theory that Christ is
just a man. So again, this

841
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:08.360
is an anti Aryan, anti Unitarian
synod from two seventy two in Antioch.

842
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:15.760
Because the next quote was from the
Epistle two Diagnetis. This is dated one

843
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:21.960
thirty a d. And we read
here that Jesus is God, the Word

844
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:28.280
made flesh. So again John one
theology. I think Malachi three isn't that

845
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:32.360
the reference to the peering of our
Great God of Yahweh. Doesn't they say

846
01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.039
the day that Yahweh will appear.
I might be wrong what Malachi three two

847
01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:42.639
is, but I think it's a
it's a mess and prophecy that's being used

848
01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:49.079
here, but it also refers to
the deed of Christ. But he says,

849
01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:54.079
they're not mere human mysteries. The
truly incomprehensible Word has established himself in

850
01:03:54.119 --> 01:03:58.639
the in our hearts, in their
hearts, the hearts of the believers.

851
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:01.159
So again, how would he do
that if he wasn't fully divine? He

852
01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:08.000
You know, a human person can't
establish himself, a mere human man can't

853
01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:12.760
establish himself in human hearts or some
proflem So again that's something a Muslim could

854
01:04:12.760 --> 01:04:20.159
not say. This one's really important
because this one is let's see, this

855
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:24.400
is twenty three. Yeah, this
is Saint Peter of Alexandria. So I

856
01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:30.440
remember a lot of the two hundreds
era theologians that would be very influential at

857
01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:33.960
the Council of Nicia. They're coming
out of the bishop or of Antioch.

858
01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:40.400
And this is what produces not just
Alexander, but also Athanaceous and one of

859
01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:45.320
the other bishops of Alexandria in the
late two hundreds put down this really powerful

860
01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:50.039
argument here. And this is again
he says, notice this not this doesn't

861
01:04:50.119 --> 01:04:57.760
just prove trinitarian incarnational relations, but
notice this amazing passage here where he says

862
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:01.800
that they came to the church and
the blessed Mother of God, ever virgin.

863
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:09.400
That's the Theotokos language that's going to
be used two hundred years later by

864
01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:15.159
Saint Cyril and Ephesus. Cyril's just
repeating his predecessor, Saint Peter of Alexandria

865
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:20.079
in the two hundreds, saying the
exact same phraseology Mother of God. That

866
01:05:20.119 --> 01:05:27.480
means that Jesus is a divine person
born of ever virgin Mary. Thus Jesus

867
01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:30.800
is a divine He's the second person
of the Godhead. So that's a very

868
01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:34.679
very early two hundred maybe one hundred
and fifty years before Cyril or so,

869
01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:40.840
but two hundred years before Ephesus and
Chalcedon. You have this amazing confession in

870
01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:48.079
the Acts of Peter of Alexandria.
Let's see, I've got this here twenty

871
01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:54.159
four. This is the Polycarp the
letter of Polycarp to the Philippians. This

872
01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:59.880
is dated about one eight eight eight. Somewhere in there, you'll notice that

873
01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:03.159
here we have this is a pretty
famous one. He says that may the

874
01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:05.800
God and Father, our Lord,
Jesus Christ and Christ himself, who was

875
01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:10.840
a son of God and eternal high
priest. Again, you couldn't be eternal

876
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:15.920
high priest if you weren't divine.
No human person is an eternal high priest

877
01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:20.039
too, because this is a reference
to Christ as the fulfillment of the order

878
01:06:20.039 --> 01:06:23.760
of mal Kisadak. Right, I
will be thank you a priest forever recording

879
01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:27.920
the Order of mal Kisadak. So
again, this is a famous reference to

880
01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:33.119
the divinity of Christ in the polycarp
to the Ephesians. And then the last

881
01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:38.440
one that I had. Again,
remember it's just a sampling. This is

882
01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:41.840
a little this is just a sampling. I got even more quotes we could

883
01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:45.000
use, but I mean, like, there's just so much, ladies and

884
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:48.000
gentlemen. This one I included just
because even though it's a little bit after

885
01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:53.480
an I see it's later on in
the three hundreds. This is the earliest

886
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:58.079
full liturgy that we have. And
this is relevant because this is the liturgy

887
01:06:58.119 --> 01:07:01.760
again Alexandria, which was so for
Nicia and the defense of the Deity of

888
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:05.840
Christ and eventually the Trinity. Now
keep in mind that the original Nicean Creed

889
01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:11.119
does include a reference to the Holy
Spirit, contrary to what Bryce and Gray

890
01:07:11.239 --> 01:07:15.239
argued when we had our debate.
So you know, when we read Athanasius

891
01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:18.360
and these other church fathers, we've
clearly seen many places where they do refer

892
01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:21.320
to the personhood a deity of the
Holy Spirit. Because a lot of times

893
01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:24.960
people who are anti Trinitarian will say, okay, well, maybe the church

894
01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:29.119
fathers thought Jesus and the Father were
divine, but nobody thought that the Holy

895
01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:32.400
Spirit was divine at Nicea, which
is simply not true. Athanaceus in many

896
01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:35.920
many places and his writings refers to
the data the Spirit. But this is

897
01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:40.280
the earliest liturgy, which is even
more forceful because this means that all the

898
01:07:40.360 --> 01:07:44.960
churches that we're in communion in the
jurisdiction of Alexandria, and remember that's a

899
01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:48.159
pretty big prominent church. If you
look at Kennon six of Nicia, it

900
01:07:48.239 --> 01:07:54.719
lists Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch
and Canon six of Nicia as the three

901
01:07:54.840 --> 01:07:59.119
most pre eminent sees in the church
at that time. So that means that

902
01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:03.840
a giant portion of churches in communion
with Alexandria again confessing the deed of Christ

903
01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:09.840
would be using this divine liturgy of
Saint Mark. So this would be even

904
01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:15.719
more of a common profession, where
we have again all kinds of references to

905
01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:17.920
the deity of Christ, calling upon
Christ to forgive our sins. You have

906
01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:23.840
the Trisagion. You have the Triadic, you know, where we don't just

907
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:29.279
call upon the Father, we call
upon our Father and Son and Holy Spirit

908
01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:34.399
right here through you, Glory power
to all holy and life giving Spirit,

909
01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:39.239
now and forever. And then we
have again this is very similar. If

910
01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:42.039
anybody has been to an Orthodox church, you'll notice this is very similar to

911
01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:45.399
the liturgy that we professed in the
Orthodox churches. And then here you have

912
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:51.880
the Trisagian right, the trisagion is
a Trinitarian prayer, Holy God, Holy

913
01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:56.600
Mighty, Holy Immortal. That is
a reference to the three persons of the

914
01:08:56.640 --> 01:09:00.159
triad in our theology and all the
fields of this time. By the way,

915
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.399
I say the same thing, So
it's not something that we're making out

916
01:09:02.479 --> 01:09:08.520
post hawk. It's the theology of
that time. Again, it's thoroughly trinitarian.

917
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:11.119
It's not that long. If anybody
wants you can go read. You

918
01:09:11.119 --> 01:09:17.199
have the Cherubic hymn also, which
has a trinitarian reference the Christ Holy Spirit.

919
01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:24.840
So again the universal Confession of the
Church is in communion with one another

920
01:09:24.920 --> 01:09:29.680
at this time, right, all
the what we call the Universal Catholic Church

921
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:32.399
in the Empire at that time.
I don't mean necessarily the Roman Callity Church

922
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:40.279
today, but the Catholic Church in
its confession of that time was clearly confessing

923
01:09:40.680 --> 01:09:47.000
trinitarian relationships that we confess today.
The Orthodox faith is confessed the true right

924
01:09:47.079 --> 01:09:51.319
believing faith, and Christ is our
high priests in Christ is the one who

925
01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:56.239
heals us and saves us. So
that's my list. Again, there's many,

926
01:09:56.279 --> 01:09:59.359
many more, but I thought that
would be a good sampling of just

927
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:03.319
the three centuries. Oh absolutely,
And if we go back even further,

928
01:10:03.439 --> 01:10:08.239
Mike, I missed this in the
Dedicated until Michael if Birds book. He

929
01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:14.039
knows that the Dedicus changes the well
known celebrated liturgical formula Hosanna to the Son

930
01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:17.000
of David, to Hosannah to the
God of David, an explicit relation to

931
01:10:17.159 --> 01:10:23.920
Jesus. The purported low Christology of
Jewish Christianity is an urban myth waiting to

932
01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:29.159
debumped, So he dedicate is very
early. It's probably earlier than the Shepherd

933
01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:32.640
of Hermas. It's close to the
New Testament. It's definitely first century right

934
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:36.000
then and there they're saying, yes, Jesus is God. And also in

935
01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:41.319
the Dedicated you have a Trinitarian baptism
formula. You baptize in the name of

936
01:10:41.319 --> 01:10:44.840
the Father, Son and the Holy
Spirit. If you go even back,

937
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:47.159
it would just go look at the
New Testament. Here's a quote from Michael

938
01:10:47.199 --> 01:10:54.039
Patrick Barber in his book The Historical
Jesus in the Temple the Devil vote Lord

939
01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:58.479
Lord is applied to Jesus in the
Sermon of the Mouth. As Jason Staples

940
01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:02.119
has shown, this expression always represents
an allusion to the tetragramatan and the septuagen

941
01:11:02.399 --> 01:11:09.199
in places where it has the Hebrew
has otto Nahashem the septuagen as Lord Lord.

942
01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:12.720
And what does Jesus say, Well, when people call on me,

943
01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:16.000
Lord Lord, he's saying that he's
the tetragrammaton right there. You can see

944
01:11:16.039 --> 01:11:20.000
the same thing in Matthew fourteen.
It's a scene that stands out where Jesus

945
01:11:20.079 --> 01:11:25.960
is exercising something that only the God
of the Bible can do, namely walking

946
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:30.720
on water. And what Barbara does
is he goes through and he shows how

947
01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:35.600
Matthew fourteen is directly quoting from Psalm
sixty eight about the Psalmist and how he's

948
01:11:35.640 --> 01:11:40.600
writing his relation to God and how
it's very similar to that. And you

949
01:11:40.640 --> 01:11:44.359
can just see this when you go
through the biblical text, like you see

950
01:11:44.399 --> 01:11:48.640
Mark opening his Gospel saying that someone's
gonna come prepare away for the Lord.

951
01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:53.000
You think that's going to be Jesus. But who shows up? John the

952
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:57.000
Baptist comes and who is he preparing
the way for Jesus? And what is

953
01:11:57.039 --> 01:12:00.039
this passage year quoting from It's quoting
from Isaiah talking about a voice crying in

954
01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:06.479
the wilderness preparing away for hashaw Right
then and there you see this through and

955
01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:12.800
through. One of my favorite ones
is actually right here where you see Mark

956
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:16.439
sixty eight forty nine talk about when
Jesus is walking on water again something only

957
01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:20.680
Yahweh can do. It says he
meant to pass by them, but when

958
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:23.880
they saw him walking on the sea, they thought it was a ghost.

959
01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:28.800
And like scholars like Mike Lacono,
this is directly referring to joke nine eight

960
01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:32.920
talking about God trampling the waves on
the sea. And it says also that

961
01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:39.359
he passes by me. And so
the Mark when he's writing this, what

962
01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:43.199
is in view is actually Joe.
So you can go through and see this

963
01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:47.760
over and over again, and notice
that they're constantly connecting Jesus to God to

964
01:12:48.279 --> 01:12:56.079
hashaw constantly over and over. I
did a lecture through the Gospel of John.

965
01:12:56.159 --> 01:13:00.279
We did every chapter, and we
noticed when we did that that pretty

966
01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:03.079
much every chapter and John has at
least a reference to the deity of Christ

967
01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:08.760
or the Trinity, and sometimes both, you know, in an entire chapter.

968
01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:11.800
So I would if people want to
go deeper into that, that's never

969
01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:15.079
ending. Well basically of you know, Old Testament, New destriment references to

970
01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:19.399
the Trinity. And and notice we
have some I got so many more quotes.

971
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:23.680
We didn't even get the Clement of
Alexandria or Gregory the Wonder Worker,

972
01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:29.279
so many quotes, the offers of
Annikya. There's another great one, Odes

973
01:13:29.279 --> 01:13:31.439
of Solomon. I mean, there's
just so much here, ladies and gentlemen.

974
01:13:31.720 --> 01:13:34.600
So for for Jake the Muslim and
physician to stand up there and say,

975
01:13:34.600 --> 01:13:39.680
well, there was no Trinity before
Nicia and actually bring up fathers like

976
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:44.279
Justin and Tertolian and Aarinaus. Anyone
who's read these fathers, is it to

977
01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:49.399
go what are you talking about these
guys are like to say Tertolian wasn't preaching

978
01:13:49.399 --> 01:13:54.079
the Trinity is just mind boggling to
me. I don't know where he would

979
01:13:54.119 --> 01:13:58.199
get. Well, the early condemnations
of Paul of sam Assada and the Sibelians,

980
01:13:58.359 --> 01:14:00.800
right, I mean, they're so
for us. So on the one

981
01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:04.680
hand, you've got the condemnation of
the modalist, anti trinitarian excuse of the

982
01:14:04.800 --> 01:14:13.560
Unitarian modalists of the Sibelians, and
you've got simultaneously condemnation of the anti Tranitarian

983
01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:17.359
Aryans. So that's really again a
confession of the fact that we're not unitarian.

984
01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:21.720
We're not Aryan or Trinitarian exactly,
and yet that needs to be pointed

985
01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:27.840
out. So as you can see, it is very easy to bunk this

986
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:32.159
claim from Muslims. There the Trinity
is through the early Church, It's through

987
01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:35.479
the scriptures. And if you want
to go even further back, watch Jay's

988
01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:40.279
debate as I mentioned with Daniel Kikachu, where he shows that you can even

989
01:14:40.279 --> 01:14:45.279
see this multipersonal nature of God in
the Old Testament. It's not this idea

990
01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:48.239
of this was a later development.
This is something that is consistently taught in

991
01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:54.319
scripture. Was it fully revealed in
the Old Testament. No, not entirely,

992
01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:57.960
but you can still see the beginnings
of them starting to understand that God

993
01:14:58.039 --> 01:15:00.359
is more than one person there.
And he did a great job demonstrating that

994
01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:04.119
his debate. Yeah, I think
if you know, the way Jesus talks

995
01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:11.319
about his relationship to Moses and his
relationship to Abraham gives us an indicator that,

996
01:15:11.680 --> 01:15:15.680
according to Jesus and John five through
nine, they knew and had a

997
01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:19.960
relationship with him. They didn't have
to have a metaphysical treatise about how the

998
01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:27.800
Trinity works to know that there's Yahweh, there's his angel messenger that some of

999
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:31.600
these Old Testament patriarchs interacted with,
and there's his Spirit, and the spirit

1000
01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:36.479
is all throughout the Old Testament as
well as a personal agent. Here is

1001
01:15:36.520 --> 01:15:41.680
a question in a sub chat for
you, Jay, Jesus submitting to the

1002
01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:45.159
Father is that like a wife submitting
to your husband? But both are equal

1003
01:15:45.199 --> 01:15:48.000
and valued as this argument hold up. I mean, I think Paul kind

1004
01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:53.720
of makes that analogy. Right.
We submit to the Church as the wife

1005
01:15:53.720 --> 01:15:57.119
submits to the husband, as Christ
submits to the Father. But again,

1006
01:15:57.840 --> 01:16:04.920
submission and subordination doesn't necessitate ontological difference, right, So I might have authority

1007
01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:11.119
over my wife in a relationship way, but that doesn't mean that in terms

1008
01:16:11.159 --> 01:16:14.920
of our nature or our ontology,
that I'm more human than she is,

1009
01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:17.279
right, Yeah, A good way
to put it. Yeah, thank you

1010
01:16:17.319 --> 01:16:21.000
for the super chat. Messianic apostate
is actually an ex Muslim, so appreciate

1011
01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:25.359
you showing up here. Wholesome to
see Mike and j Claberty. Yeah,

1012
01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:27.880
and I hope we can do more
in the future on stuff like this because

1013
01:16:28.199 --> 01:16:31.399
I think it's great for Christians to
work together and find unity, and I

1014
01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:35.239
think that's all I'm all for doing
more of that. Very good to see

1015
01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:39.119
you two work together. Defind a
Trinity one of, if not the most

1016
01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:42.359
important doctrines. I'd love to see
some unity in stut of division. Totally

1017
01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:45.600
agree. Would you would you say, Jay, that the Trinity is the

1018
01:16:45.640 --> 01:16:51.680
most essential Christian doctrine or would you
say it's equal with other doctrines. I

1019
01:16:51.800 --> 01:16:56.319
believe that you know the first seven
Council of the Church and might be really

1020
01:16:56.399 --> 01:17:00.640
hammer out all of the trinitarian and
Christological implicate So really the Trinity is kind

1021
01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:05.840
of the foundation and then all the
other doctrines like Christology will flow from that.

1022
01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:11.159
So I think Trinity and Christology really
set the tone for what Christianity is.

1023
01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:15.039
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree
with you on that. Looks like

1024
01:17:15.039 --> 01:17:18.800
one of your fans, soy face, no better guests had all the stuff.

1025
01:17:20.279 --> 01:17:24.159
One thing I would add to I
just remembered. So, uh,

1026
01:17:24.199 --> 01:17:27.359
Tonight, I'll be doing a live
stream with doctor bo Branson, who I

1027
01:17:27.399 --> 01:17:32.600
think is you mentioned that you mentioned
the guy that who's the black guy,

1028
01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:39.239
that that's the monarch. Doctor Joshua
said they've done streams together, and doctor

1029
01:17:39.279 --> 01:17:44.520
Branson and I are going to be
covering some of this tonight because he had

1030
01:17:44.680 --> 01:17:47.840
a debate with Jake in the past
that I recommend everybody watch does God Have

1031
01:17:47.880 --> 01:17:51.800
a Son? And they'd had a
really good interaction on that, and then

1032
01:17:53.119 --> 01:17:57.520
doctor Khalil Anani has a really good
interaction with Jake too, So people want

1033
01:17:57.520 --> 01:18:00.279
to go deeper into the Jake debates, I would suggest those, and then

1034
01:18:00.920 --> 01:18:04.319
for those that are interested in what
monarchical trinitarianism is, we'll be doing a

1035
01:18:04.319 --> 01:18:10.600
live stream on that tonight. What
time is that, I think we're est

1036
01:18:11.359 --> 01:18:14.800
eight s t okay, So for
those of you watching, be sure to

1037
01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:16.199
go to Jay's channel tonight to watch
that. If you're watching this later,

1038
01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:19.640
you can go to Jay's channel now
and watch that because we're going to wrap

1039
01:18:19.720 --> 01:18:25.560
up this stream here soon. Question
here, people who live in glass houses

1040
01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:29.640
shouldn't throw stones this Jake not realize
he also prays to the dead five times

1041
01:18:29.640 --> 01:18:32.960
a day to a guy rotting in
Mecca. I'm not sure that's a reference

1042
01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:36.520
to you. I'm not up todate
on all my understanding Islamic theology. JA,

1043
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:42.760
do you know what this is as
in reference to is they think he's

1044
01:18:42.800 --> 01:18:45.680
dying in Mecca. I guess that
means that he didn't ascend to heaven.

1045
01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:48.039
So I guess that's what that person
means. I think that he's referring to

1046
01:18:48.039 --> 01:18:51.279
them praying to Mohammed, whose body
was buried in Mecca. Kind that's what

1047
01:18:51.279 --> 01:18:55.920
I'm saying, Like, so he
didn't ascend, so he's still Jesus ascended

1048
01:18:56.079 --> 01:18:59.279
and Mohammed did not, I guess
is what he's saying. Yeah, yeah,

1049
01:18:59.319 --> 01:19:00.840
definitely seem to be that case.
All right, where's the next one

1050
01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:04.800
here? Jay? I applaud your
courage. Is amazing that you're showing your

1051
01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:10.640
face after how you exposed and I
don't know who that is, but I

1052
01:19:10.760 --> 01:19:14.479
doubt that he actually exposed and demolished
unit. So this is a Marxist communist

1053
01:19:14.520 --> 01:19:19.840
to argue that materialism is true because
there's no such thing as metaphysics, and

1054
01:19:19.880 --> 01:19:24.560
so he didn't understand that that's a
metaphysical claim to say that all reality is

1055
01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:29.000
material. And yeah, so that
that wasn't much of a debate, Yeah,

1056
01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:32.039
yeah, pretty sure. All right, anything else you want to say

1057
01:19:32.079 --> 01:19:35.760
on trinitarian theology. As I've said, James got to stream the night with

1058
01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:40.640
doc doctor Bill Branson, another great
scholar. They're going to be covering more

1059
01:19:40.680 --> 01:19:43.680
of this. Anything else you want
to add before we wrap up here,

1060
01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:49.760
Just one comment that the notion of
development is a little unclear. In our

1061
01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:56.640
view, the trinity is a doctrine
that the apostles are handing down, even

1062
01:19:56.680 --> 01:20:00.800
if the word trinity is not used. And so what we believe that counsels

1063
01:20:00.800 --> 01:20:08.279
are doing is just defining and explicating
and getting more precise about what that deposit

1064
01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:12.720
of faith that was once for all
delivered was. So an argue contrary to

1065
01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:15.439
like a Roman Catholic idea of the
doctrinal development. We don't think that there's

1066
01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:21.000
like an evolving, changing thing.
And Jake seemed to have that kind of

1067
01:20:21.000 --> 01:20:24.640
an argument when he was saying,
Oh, the Trinity is a doctrine that

1068
01:20:24.680 --> 01:20:28.000
evolves, and I think it's very
important to point out that an argue.

1069
01:20:28.039 --> 01:20:31.920
It's not an evolution. It's an
explication and getting more precise, but it's

1070
01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:35.960
not an evolving doctrine. Yeah.
And I would also say that the way

1071
01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:41.039
I kind of word it is like
you may not see the word in the

1072
01:20:41.079 --> 01:20:45.039
Bible omniscience, for example, but
clearly you see that taught. And it's

1073
01:20:45.079 --> 01:20:48.000
the same with the Trinity. I
don't know you can come away from reading

1074
01:20:48.039 --> 01:20:53.279
the Gospel of John, especially the
Farewell Discourse, and not come away with

1075
01:20:53.279 --> 01:20:56.800
a trinitarian theology. Like That's where
I point people too, when they say

1076
01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:00.239
where does the Bible teach the Trinity? Just read John and if you really

1077
01:21:00.239 --> 01:21:03.079
want something specifics, starting John thirteen
and go up to John seventeen. You'll

1078
01:21:03.079 --> 01:21:09.640
see it. Very monarchical trinitarianism right
there. It's all three persons are mentioned,

1079
01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:12.359
all refer to as God. I
don't know how else you can get

1080
01:21:12.399 --> 01:21:15.119
around this. Absolutely totally agree.
Yeah, John's so clear. Oh,

1081
01:21:15.199 --> 01:21:18.039
yeah, absolutely, so I appreciate
you coming on the channel. Jay.

1082
01:21:18.079 --> 01:21:20.840
I thought this was gonna be very
helpful. I hope people can use this

1083
01:21:20.880 --> 01:21:25.920
stream in the future. Muslims make
this ridiculous claim and all the quotes we

1084
01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:28.880
put up, so you guys can
just see it for yourself and go and

1085
01:21:28.920 --> 01:21:31.359
get the quotes. This isn't hard
to debunk, ladies and gentlemen. For

1086
01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:35.000
a Muslim to make the bold claim
that the Church didn't teach the Trinity until

1087
01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:40.039
I see is just pure and utter
nonsense. And I appreciate my guests being

1088
01:21:40.039 --> 01:21:43.920
on with me today. We don't
agree on everything, that's okay because we

1089
01:21:44.039 --> 01:21:47.279
both affirm the essential doctrines. Appreciate
from this point for sure, we most

1090
01:21:47.359 --> 01:21:50.560
certainly do, and that needs to
be celebrated and explored because I think there's

1091
01:21:50.560 --> 01:21:54.760
a lot more unity and the Body
of Christ than is actually known. And

1092
01:21:54.800 --> 01:21:57.520
so it's very honored to have you
on today. Jay. I appreciate and

1093
01:21:57.560 --> 01:21:59.800
I hope we can do more of
this in the future. Appreciate it.

1094
01:22:00.119 --> 01:22:02.000
Yeah, God bless you and I
have a good day. God bless you

1095
01:22:02.000 --> 01:22:03.399
too. God bless you too.
Man