WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:11.919 Welcome to Open Minds Radio with your host Alejandro Rojas, former Director of Public 2 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:17.399 Education and official spokesperson for the Mutual UFO Network. Alejandro has been a UFO 3 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:22.199 paranormal researcher and journalist for nearly a decade and has logged hours in the field 4 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:27.559 investigating the paranormal up close and personal. And now Open Minds Radio presents evidence 5 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:36.119 and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your host, Alejandro Rojas. 6 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:40.479 Hello, and welcome to Open Minds Radio. This is Alejandro Rojas. 7 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:46.520 We have another great show today and this is our first show over the Phoenix 8 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:52.439 airwaves, so this is really exciting. We're on CAFNX AM eleven hundred going 9 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:57.920 live. We also have our video stream going and our online stream going, 10 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:03.439 so check us out at open mind dot tv. To say this great studio. 11 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.439 It's beautiful in here, but we have another great show. We've been 12 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:10.159 doing the show for quite some time, but this is the first time over 13 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:17.840 the air on AM eleven hundred and today's guest is someone that I'm a big 14 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:22.359 fan of. His name is Richard Dolan. He's an acclaimed UFO historian. 15 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:27.280 He's the author of the definitive multi volume UFOs and the National Security State. 16 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:34.400 He's spoken about UFOs to audiences around the world, and he's also appeared in 17 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.239 a lot of documentaries. In fact, you may have seen him if you 18 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.400 watch the UFO documentaries out there, because there's tons of them these days, 19 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.439 and he stars in almost all of them, a lot of them. He's 20 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.159 been on the History Channel, the Sci Fi Channel BBC all over the place, 21 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:55.120 and he hosted a show called sci Fi Investigates on the sci Fi Channel. 22 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.040 You might have seen that one. But first, just to kind of 23 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:04.400 introduce ourselves, Open Mind to Phoenix. We are an investigation and research group. 24 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:08.680 We cover news on UFOs and related topics. We have our website openminds 25 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:13.919 dot tv, where we put all of our news and daily UFO headlines. 26 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:17.960 We'll get to that in a second. Also, we obviously have a radio 27 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.360 show and we have a magazine coming out very soon. You're gonna be able 28 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:27.080 to catch this in the airport or in Barnes Noble. We also have a 29 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.240 TV show we're working on, and we have little video spots that you can 30 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:34.000 check out on our website that are kind of cool, some little vignettes on 31 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:38.080 the latest news where you can hear the reporters talking about the stories. But 32 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:43.360 before we get to our guests, let's talk about UFOs in the news. 33 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:47.800 This is headlines from around the world. We can close eye on conventional media 34 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:53.719 and their coverage of this subject. All of these headlines are posted on openminds 35 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:57.439 dot tv, so you can check them out as you're at your leisure, 36 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:00.960 or if you're in front of the computer right now, you can come see 37 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.599 what I'm talking about. One of the first stories that we've received in the 38 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.759 last couple weeks here is pretty interesting because, of course at the beginning of 39 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:13.919 the year you have the psychics talking about what's going to happen in the new 40 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:19.599 year, and in California there's a group of psychics who talked about UFOs and 41 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:24.280 they believe that Larry King is actually going to have an extraterrestrial as a guest 42 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:29.759 sometime in twenty ten. So that would be awfully interesting. Of course, 43 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:35.319 should that happen, I may be a little skeptical, but who knows, 44 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.039 he works wonders, he gets the good guests, so it could happen. 45 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:44.319 Actually, a very popular psychic, Sylvia Brown, I think on the Montel 46 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:49.919 Williams show talked about twenty ten being the period of time where extraterrestrials are going 47 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:55.439 to come introduce themselves and kind of say hi and welcome to the galactic civilizations, 48 00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:01.560 and we'll be able to join our galactic brother But who knows, pretty 49 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:06.120 interesting stuff from the psychics in twenty ten. We'll see how accurate they are 50 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:12.599 in the coming months. Also, UFO stories. Really, if you go 51 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:15.680 look at this the website, you're gonna see tons of links on the page 52 00:04:15.720 --> 00:04:24.079 about sightings and conventional news, especially local papers cover a lot of sightings all 53 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:26.600 over the place. You have stuff in Britain, you have stuff in San 54 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:31.639 Diego, you have stuff in Texas. One of the biggest organizations and you 55 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.600 might have heard at the beginning of the show, I was part of This 56 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:41.240 organization is the Mutual UFO Network and they take a lot of UFO reports and 57 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:46.040 they also have their director of communications, Roger Marsh, who is an examiner. 58 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:50.120 He writes for a site called examiner dot com and he's the national UFO 59 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:55.560 examiner. He puts the reports from moufon on this site and they had an 60 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:59.279 interesting one there at moufon dot com. You can go and you can put 61 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:02.040 in your report, and you can also upload any pictures or video. They 62 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:06.160 received a video from a gentleman in California who said he was watching a UFO 63 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:11.319 for five minutes before it disappeared, and he uploaded a few minutes of that 64 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.720 video, so you can check that out at the front page of the website. 65 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:21.079 That's one of the most interesting sightings. And then in other news we 66 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:28.040 have, actually this is pretty funny, a very controversial ad campaign that's been 67 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.399 running. Essentially, it's a gym. They're trying to get people to work 68 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:34.839 out and stay healthy, and they're using some fear tactics to do that. 69 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:41.120 Their ad says that aliens will eat the fatties first. You can see how 70 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.439 that's a little controversial. Some people don't like that, but hey, it's 71 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.279 working. He's getting some national headline news by using this this ad campaign, 72 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:57.759 so that's another interesting one. However, more seriously, on a serious note, 73 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.439 some of the stories that we've been writing about are kind of fun. 74 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.639 I just posted a story yesterday about scientists and UFOs, and I'm sure we're 75 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:08.920 going to get into this with Richard Dolan here in a minute. But often 76 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.160 I get the question you know, if there really was something to this subject, 77 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:15.759 scientists would be interested, and actually they are interested. There are dozens 78 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.199 of scientists that I listed in this story, and I talked about some of 79 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:25.839 the organizations, including MOFON and some of the other major UFO organizations that were 80 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.439 started by scientists that we're interested in this field. So you can go check 81 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:32.959 out that story. Another one is another interesting move on story. Actually, 82 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:38.560 Richard Lang is part of the rapid response team for Movefon. They're called the 83 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:43.079 Star Team, and one of the stories they've done recently is a new in 84 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.399 New York, a UFO that buzzed a car causing some electromagnetic effects. So 85 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:54.240 this UFO kind of went over the car, the car stopped, the researchers 86 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.720 went out there check the car, and now it's emitting these electromagnetic fields. 87 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:02.600 So really strange stuff. Some great work done there, and as you'll see 88 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:08.839 here and with some of our upcoming stories, there is some physical evidence when 89 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:15.800 it comes to UFOs. UFOs over Argentina is another story we have posted. 90 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:19.879 This is a fun one too. Argentina. In this kind of rural city, 91 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:26.160 there's actually twenty thousand people out there, most of them were outside in 92 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:29.240 the middle of the night because it was extremely hot out there, eating ice 93 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:30.839 cream, you know, drinking tea, things like that, trying to stay 94 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:35.800 cool, and this large they say, two hundred to three hundred foot cylinder, 95 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:40.279 hovered over their city for a period of time up to an hour. 96 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.199 Most of the people in the town saw it, then took off. They 97 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.920 then reported seeing it in a town called Eltoonall, and then in El Tuonall 98 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:56.120 it hovered over a dam. At this dam, there were some fishermen. 99 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:00.680 They say they saw beams of light coming down from the UFO to the dam, 100 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.519 and then beams of light going from the dam to the UFO, and 101 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:09.439 then a blackout happened. The blackout lasted for twelve hours. The power company 102 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.720 looked at the turbines and the damn they saw one of the turbat turbines was 103 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:20.720 completely fried. And so they're saying, possibly this UFO might have caused, 104 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.480 you know, this huge blackout in Argentina. That's a great story. And 105 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:30.399 luckily one of our writers, Antonio Juneis, he's from Chile and he speaks 106 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.600 Spanish, so he was able to monitor the Spanish news where it made a 107 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:39.440 lot of noise and get some of the recent updates from that. He was 108 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.919 able to also talk to some of the local researchers out there in Argentina. 109 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:50.039 It's helpful to have a Spanish speaker as part of the program. Someone else 110 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.320 I'll talk about is Marizio Bayada. He's another one of our writers. He's 111 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.240 from Italy and as you can tell, I love to say his name, 112 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:03.679 Mauritzio Bayada. Ah, And he has been a ufologist out there in Europe 113 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:09.320 for quite some time, so we get a lot of European stories through him 114 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:11.759 as well. In fact, he did a lot of research into the alien 115 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.960 autopsy. You may remember a couple of years ago, quite a few years 116 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:20.960 ago now this famous video that came out, the alien autopsy, and he 117 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:24.320 researched that, and you can read about his research on our website. Right 118 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:26.840 now, we have to take a short break, but we'll be right back 119 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:35.120 with our guest, Richard Dolan. All right, we are back and you 120 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:39.440 are listening to Open Minds Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and 121 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:45.799 this is KFNEX AM eleven hundred. We are here with our guest who is 122 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.200 on the line, Richard Dolan. Are you there, Hi? Elandro. 123 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:54.159 Hello, it's great to hear from you again. Same here, very very 124 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.720 glad to be on with you. You know, I got one of the 125 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.320 biggest thrills in my euphological career last night. I was looking through your book 126 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:07.159 again and I had never looked at the acknowledgments and I found my name there. 127 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.600 You know it, man, Man, that was a huge honor. 128 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.240 I was so thrilled. I wanted to thank you for that. Well. 129 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:20.159 I up book. You very welcome. I try to remember everyone who I 130 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.279 really felt helped me in some way or another during the last many years of 131 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:28.559 doing this book, and certainly you are not forgotten, sir. Thank you 132 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.320 very much. And I guess just to talk about the books for a second. 133 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:37.039 UFOs and the National Security State. It's a multi volume set so far. 134 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:41.799 You are on issue too, which goes up to nineteen ninety one, 135 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:46.399 and you've covered the field since the forties, that's right, and you're working 136 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.480 on a third. Yeah. In fact, I spent a number of hours 137 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:56.559 earlier this week writing chap Volume three. I haven't tried too much time doing 138 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.759 that. I want to get this done, and the first chapter is now 139 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:03.799 being put together. Great. That's really exciting and really, I mean, 140 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.480 as far as I know, it's the only set that's so thorough about you 141 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.360 know, year by year what's gone on in the research in this field, 142 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:16.240 and I think people are always explored at how much has happened. It's Alejandro. 143 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:22.000 It blows my mind even now when I review the amount of UFO related 144 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.799 information that is relevant for all of those years. It's an enormous amount and 145 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.039 I had to cut a lot out, but I really did. I felt. 146 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.279 I feel that I packed in the most relevant information that is available to 147 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.919 us for that time. And it's just the thing is, if you were 148 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:45.799 to take any given day or any given year and just pick one at random, 149 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:50.399 my feeling is you would probably hit a day that had some important event 150 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:56.639 that took place. And the thing that always gets to me is that they're 151 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.799 almost never reported in the mainstream media. It's like this massive amount of hidden 152 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:07.320 history, right that on any given days just this rich had they been reported 153 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:11.679 as a headline news, I think the world would be in a state of 154 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.519 constant shock. Right if these events were to get the amount of attention that 155 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.519 they really deserve. I think people get really shocked we put UFO headlines up 156 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:24.720 every day, and usually there's at least four. And if you go look 157 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.240 at the website, for instance, at open Minds at you you're going to 158 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:33.440 see a whole page full of headlines around the world. And that's just from 159 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.080 January third. I mean, really, there's just so much going on. 160 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:41.559 I'm impressed by the open Minds page in the news section there, I think 161 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.399 is very good. I agree with you, there's just a great deal of 162 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:50.879 information out there anyone who's interested in learning about this. It's the easiest thing 163 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:56.159 in the world now to find legitimate sources. I'm constantly struck by skeptical people, 164 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.600 but who really just they haven't bothered to look into it, and they 165 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:03.480 constantly saying, but where's the evidence, where's the evidence? And I just 166 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.679 keep wanting to say, look, it's so easy to find. Where do 167 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.960 you want the truck to be backed up? Right? Exactly? And likely 168 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.080 you've put it into some concise reports here in your books that people can go 169 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.440 read. I really wanted to do that. One of my primary goals in 170 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.799 writing the books that I do is to provide a permanent resource not just for 171 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:30.200 the most serious researchers, but even those who are just casually interested who want 172 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:31.840 to know what the fuss is all about. I want them to be able 173 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.879 to open up a book and find something that's easy to read, even though 174 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:41.840 it's a large book. I wanted it to be an easy read so that 175 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.279 they could get a sense of really what this history is all about, and 176 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.960 yes, to try to make sense out of it, to try to write 177 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:54.399 about it in a way that incorporates the rest of the world into the world, 178 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.039 into the whole UFO scene, integrating UFO history in other words, with 179 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:03.039 the larger history that we all live in. Well, what inspired you to 180 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.000 get involved with this field? Wow? Well I think about this a lot. 181 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.080 I get asked this every so often. It's not like I grew up 182 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:16.000 thinking that I would be a UFO researcher or historian years ago, right just 183 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:22.799 doing standard historical research. I was doing doctoral research at the University of Rochester 184 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.759 and Cold War studies. Prior to moving into Cold War studies, I'd been 185 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.320 doing a lot of German and Soviet history that had a nice background in international 186 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:37.320 history, modern Cold War stuff, and nothing with UFOs. But I got 187 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.840 interested in the early to mid nineties, and really through two ways. One 188 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.120 was just surfing around on what was then the Internet, not really the World 189 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:50.960 Wide Web, but rather news groups. This is nineteen ninety four or so. 190 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:58.440 If anyone's old enough to remember hanging out on alt paranet ufo, that 191 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.120 was was the place to be. Well that's I mean, that's where the 192 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.919 information was coming out in these news groups. And your book covers all of 193 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:13.080 that news group activity where a lot was going on back then. Absolutely that 194 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.759 tried. That whole scene really took off in the late eighties. I wasn't 195 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.600 following it at that early, but I caught it before it died truly not 196 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.360 anything what it used to be. But in the early nineties it was still 197 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.759 going and I caught it, and it was a fascinating thing for me to 198 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:33.840 read some very intelligent people putting up some very very interesting articles. There was 199 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:35.159 a lot of the stupid stuff you know, you stink, No, he 200 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:39.120 was thinking the flame wars are going full guns back then. But there were 201 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.919 very very intelligent people. And there was one guy, actually I still chat 202 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.000 with him from time to time. His name is Val German and he lives 203 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.279 out in the Midwest, and he wrote some excellent articles that really tried to 204 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:56.639 look at the UFO cover up in the broader context and really trying to do 205 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:00.440 some analysis. And I read his pieces and I thought, that's the kind 206 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.000 of work I really want to be doing. And I guess I took the 207 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.679 ball and ran with it. The other thing that was a turning point with 208 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:11.960 me was reading Timothy Goods very excellent book Above Top Secret, which I think 209 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:18.080 I read around nineteen ninety four also, and I'll never forget this. I 210 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:19.240 was in a bookstore and I just picked it up and flipped through it and 211 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.159 thought, oh, I recognize this name and that name and that department, 212 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.720 and these documents looked like they might be legitimate. And this moment just hit 213 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.879 me where I thought not even were UFOs real? Because I was at a 214 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:34.399 much more conservative place at that time. I just wanted to know if this 215 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.480 was a legitimate topic of our history, and did high level people take it 216 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.919 seriously as it appeared to be. And if that was so, then my 217 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:48.399 simple question was, well, why had this never been handled in an academic 218 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.080 history interesting? How could it not be? And so I looked into it 219 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.919 from that point of view, asking the question was this ever serious part of 220 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.080 our history? And of course it turned out my feeling that it was. 221 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:03.720 Was there some legitimate work, some researchers or high level people involved that shocked 222 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.440 you at the beginning say that again, I'm not sure I understand what you're 223 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.480 asking me here. Well, like you're saying you were able to look at 224 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.839 some of these documents and look into who was looking into this. Were there 225 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:21.960 are some specific incidents or specific people or documents that really shocked you. Yeah, 226 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:26.279 there were a few. You know, a number of the military documents. 227 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.160 These are the ones that really grabbed me then, and they still grabbed 228 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.559 me. Now. Anytime you read a document that was by a three star 229 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.079 general or a high level CIA analyst and they seem to be taking the UFO 230 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:42.160 phenomenon seriously, that's interesting. And so for example, the famous, at 231 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:48.279 least in UFO research, the famous Nathan Twining document of nineteen forty seven really 232 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:52.000 grabbed me. And this is a document Nathan twenty was then a three star 233 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.160 general over right Airfield, Air Material Command Center. He was a very high 234 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.920 level man. Later became head of the Chief of STEFF of the Air Force. 235 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:06.839 Nathan Twining in September forty seven wrote a document that described the serious nature 236 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.039 of the UFO phenomenon, the flying discs as they were called, and we're 237 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:15.799 reporting what military reports were saying to him, describing these documents and great, 238 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.039 excuse me, describing these objects in great detail, disc shapes, domed on 239 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:27.240 top, flat on bottom, what objects look like that right in forty seven 240 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:33.319 or even today? And so that really that really affected me. And then 241 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.480 there are a number of documents that describe violations of sensitive airspace through the forties 242 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:48.119 and fifties and sixties and seventies, right, we have that also are equally 243 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:52.079 compelling. We have a we've posted one of your stories that you let us 244 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:57.240 repost twelve government documents that take UFO seriously. And number one, you listen, 245 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:02.200 there's a twying memo. You also have a memo number two from Hoover, 246 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:07.079 j Edgar Hoover. Yeah, that's a very well it was addressed to 247 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:15.319 j Edgar Hoover. But nevertheless it's a fascinating document describing a special agent in 248 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:22.519 the FBI writing to Hoover describing how the military branches are taking the flying sauce 249 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:29.640 of phenomenon very seriously and have classified it as top secret. Yeah, we 250 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.920 don't have a response that Hoover made to that particular document. But this is 251 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:41.880 one of several very significant FBI documents that do talk about UFOs. I think 252 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.839 it's the most interesting of the FBI documents. Another I put a number of 253 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:51.279 others on the site. I created that article. I originally wrote it actually 254 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.119 a number of years ago and didn't do too much with it, and then 255 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.279 really looked it over just a few months ago and decided to put it up 256 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:03.359 on the site. Wanted a seri smories of documents listed for anybody to read, 257 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.039 with the documents themselves reproduced and you can click them and enlarge them and 258 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:11.720 read them yourself. On my site, which is keyhole publishing dot com. 259 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.839 I can put that in and then also also with some commentary by me about 260 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:21.880 the significance of these documents, and you can also people can get your book 261 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.640 at keyhole publishing dot com. Yeah, that's right, It's available at my 262 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:32.359 website ship and I pack and ship them every day right from here. I 263 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.200 am the publisher of my book. I've discovered that I've really enjoyed being the 264 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.559 publisher of this book, and in fact, I'm taking on a couple of 265 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.680 other book projects now as a publisher. I'm about to publish. If I 266 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:51.440 just may mention this a new book by the very, very excellent researcher, 267 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:55.039 doctor Richard Souder, who happens to be a good friend of mine. Richard 268 00:20:55.160 --> 00:21:00.880 is, in my view, the premiere public expert at least on underground bases 269 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.319 underground tunnel systems. Great, well, we've got it going to be a 270 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.000 great one. That's exciting. We've got to go to break right now. 271 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.160 We'll talk some more about some of the UFO history. We'll be right back 272 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:19.759 with Richard Dolan. All right, we are back. You're listening to Open 273 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:26.960 Minds Radio and I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas. We're on KFNX AM eleven 274 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:32.079 hundred in the Phoenix metro area, and we are here with our guest, 275 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:37.119 Richard Dolan, author of UFO's in the National Security State. One of the 276 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:42.759 stories you covered, I noticed in your recent book is one that a television 277 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.559 show that got a lot of people interested. I was just a kid, 278 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:51.240 but I actually caught some of the show, and that's UFO Cover Up Live. 279 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.079 That's right in nineteen eighty eight. I was wondering, if you can 280 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.359 kind of cover for the listeners what that show is all about. Oh, 281 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:03.400 gladly, it's a fascinating show I saw, and also Alejandro when I was 282 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:10.200 long before I got involved in studying this topic and to put it in perspective, 283 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:11.599 in nineteen eighty eight, there were very very little, it was a 284 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:18.440 very little true UFO television shows of documentary were out there at that time, 285 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.519 and this was one. It came out in October of nineteen eighty It was 286 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:30.680 hosted by Mike Barrell of Mash fame of the television show Mash. And it 287 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.720 was two hours, and it purported it was a very kind of a serious 288 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:41.839 let's just say it was meant to be a very truthful expose, right. 289 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.240 The guests were very serious, but Barrel seemed to be kind of tongue in 290 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.559 cheek. You always had a smirk. Well. It was interesting because some 291 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.920 of it I think was very straight up. There was a debate that it 292 00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:00.720 featured on abductions, which featured Bud Hopkins, but the big part of it 293 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.799 was that it featured the statements of Robert Collins, who is an Air Force 294 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:14.240 captain at the time, and also Richard Doty, who was an Air Force 295 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:19.000 Office of Special Investigations. They had both been recently retired from the Air Force 296 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:25.559 when they appeared on this show. But really the show was the first one 297 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:32.640 to talk about Majestic twelve MJ twelve, which was a very new concept in 298 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:36.240 UFO research at the time, and the MJ twelve documents to this day are 299 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:44.839 controversial. They purport to be documents that are at the presidential level describing the 300 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.920 reality of the alien presence on Earth. I also found it interesting that these 301 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:55.240 two Air Force intelligence gentlemen, Dody and Collins, like you had mentioned, 302 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.759 they were really talking about some far out there type of stuff compared to the 303 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:04.319 rect the people on the show. Absolutely. One of the things that everybody 304 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:11.440 who saw that show remembered was that the aliens were very fond of ancient Tibetan 305 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:18.359 music, and they liked vegetables, but their favorite snack was strawberry. And 306 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:21.559 this is the thing that everybody I remember this years and years later. Oh 307 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:26.200 yeah, the ice cream Aliens like ice cream. So you know, the 308 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.759 question of course arises as any of this true, is some of it true? 309 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:37.279 It is all of it true? And who knows? There's the thing. 310 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.960 The problem with what happened in the UFO field by the late nineteen eighties. 311 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:47.480 This is really a very simple let me simplify the scenario here. During 312 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:55.240 the nineteen seventies, the UFO research community made massively important strides in uncovering and 313 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:59.119 exposing the cover up. That's really the reason for the subtitle of this book. 314 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.440 It's the cover up exposed in this volume two. And this is due 315 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:07.519 to two things. One was through the recently recent strengthening of the Freedom of 316 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.480 Information Act during the nineteen seventies. You know, prior to the nineteen seventies, 317 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.720 sure there were researchers who were convinced there was a cover up, but 318 00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.000 they didn't have a lot of government documents to make their case with. After 319 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.799 the mid seventies, by the late seventies, it was a very different situation. 320 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:29.960 Thousands of documents by then had been released from the US National Archives describing 321 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.759 some incredible UFO encounters that our military was having UFO documents by the CIA and 322 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:40.920 so on. None of them by themselves were a single smoking gun proving that 323 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.359 aliens were here, But when you looked at the cumulative effect of these, 324 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:49.519 it was a very powerful collection indeed, and so this presumably would be a 325 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:53.799 threat to secrecy. The other prong of attack, as it were, in 326 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:57.720 the late seventies, were due to the leaks that were then coming out really 327 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:04.720 for the first time in nature way dealing with retrievals of crash UFOs. Most 328 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:11.480 prominently of these was Roswell, but Roswell was not the only case. Stories 329 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:18.839 by alleged insiders of having guarded alien bodies and things like this, and they 330 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:25.039 were all starting to come out in the late nineteen seventies, and so this 331 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:29.799 in some of these leaks looked like they might be pretty good. And so 332 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.279 the problem was, again from the point of view of secrecies, are these 333 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.200 going to be a threat? And so what you find in the early nineteen 334 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:42.960 eighties is, in my view, what appears to be a counter attack by 335 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.440 the intelligence community. In my view, the most logical thing they were trying 336 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.119 to do is to disable these two sources. And so you have documents that 337 00:26:52.200 --> 00:27:00.279 are released that are of disputed origin, and this includes the MJ twelve documents. 338 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.400 That I'm not saying that the MJ TOWLD documents are fake by the way, 339 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:07.759 right, I think it's a simplistic argument that many people have said, 340 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:14.000 is that well, because there appears to be this problem or that problem and 341 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.799 because the providence of them is Air Force Intelligence, that they are therefore faked. 342 00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:21.400 I don't see it that way. They come back to that and then 343 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:26.000 the other. The other thing that happened in the early nineteen eighties, if 344 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:32.640 I could just continue here, is that there is strong evidence of infiltration by 345 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:40.799 Air Force Intelligence and CIA of the major UFO research groups at the time at 346 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.720 PRO. This also includes muff On. This also includes KUFOS in my view, 347 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.880 and a lot of this had Some of that had to do with Dody 348 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.599 himself, this gentleman who was on UFO cover up Live maybe some strong e 349 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:57.720 Doty was involved in this right from the get go. He in the early 350 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.759 eighties and nineteen eighty three showed the researcher Linda Moulton, how some documents that 351 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:08.000 she was not allowed to copy. He showed these to her at Currently Air 352 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:14.559 Force Base and they were Presidential briefing document This is a year and a half 353 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:19.599 before the MJ twelve documents were released to other researchers. Linda Moulton, how 354 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.960 to her credit in my view, did not do anything rash with these documents. 355 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:30.680 She sat on them for years and really only started talking about them on 356 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.799 once the MJ twelve information started leaking out. Their other means well, I 357 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.599 guess that's the issue with MJ twelve. That makes it a little more difficult. 358 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:42.359 Those documents were leaked documents, so it's hard to verify, whereas a 359 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:48.119 lot of these other documents that you're talking about were retrieved through Freedom of Information 360 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.440 Act, but they were able to be confirmed as real. That's right. 361 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:56.640 There's right out at the US National Archives, and there is with the vast 362 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.160 majority of these UFO documents. There's no dispute by even the most ardent skeptic 363 00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:06.759 of their authenticity. They have a record and file numbers and their appropriate appropriately 364 00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:11.839 declassified documents. There are these others that I've no home, No one will 365 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:18.200 claim them, doesn't mean that they're not legitimate. The thing is, here's 366 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:23.440 how I look at at this whole messy business. If you and I were 367 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:32.279 part of an intelligence team to disable this topic to some extent, and we 368 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.519 were charge with releasing disinformation about it, we would be fools if we were 369 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.400 simply to make up some completely fictitious document and release it out there, because 370 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.960 frankly, it wouldn't be any difficulty at all to prove it as false. 371 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:53.279 What you want to do is have something that looks legitimate, but then is 372 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.640 packaged in such a way that it can't be accepted. In other words, 373 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:02.119 you put some truth out, but you'd put that truth out in such a 374 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:06.480 way that it's disabled. That's one of the key things that we want to 375 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:11.799 do is disinformation specialists. And I believe this is exactly what has happened with 376 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.039 some of these UFO documents, and I think this is true of the MJ 377 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:22.400 twelve. In other words, I'm of the opinion that there's too much that 378 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:27.759 has been confirmed in the MJ twelve documents to think that they're completely fake. 379 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:32.359 I think that they're probably legitimate. And we have to keep in mind too 380 00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:37.599 that every document goes through multiple versions. There are probably other versions of the 381 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.720 MJA twelve documents around there. Right, well, we'll get into some of 382 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:47.599 the more confirmable documents after the break and also take calls. Will be right 383 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:57.279 back still eleven hundred. All right, we are back, and you're listening 384 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:03.279 to Open Minds Radio on camp an X Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro 385 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.880 Rojas, and we are here with our guest Richard Dolan. I was wondering 386 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.240 if you could cover one of the cases that came out in the seventies that 387 00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:17.000 was one of the most convincing where you had a lot of you know, 388 00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:22.319 valley government documentation and witnesses. Sure, well, there's the number of these. 389 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:30.599 Probably the probably the most powerful of all, in my opinion, is 390 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.920 the famous case among researchers. But if someone is casually following the shield, 391 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:38.359 it may still not know about it. And that's the nineteen seventy six case 392 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:45.039 of a phenomenal object over the city of Tehran in Iran. And this of 393 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.119 course is back in the days of the Shah, when Iran was a US 394 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.240 ally. The US had an embassy there, and this got a lot of 395 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:59.440 attention by the US government. What happened, in brief was that Tehran residents 396 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.519 up in the evening sky, this is in September of seventy sixth and he 397 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:07.319 saw this brilliant object that was completely unrecognizable, and many of them phoned the 398 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:13.720 local airport, Metrabad Airport. Eventually the air traffic controller came out and looked 399 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:20.160 out expecting to see nothing, and he too was blown away by this brilliant 400 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.880 object that he had never noticed he'd never seen anything like it, so he 401 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.599 called the Air Force, which scrambled two F four fighter interceptors in succession. 402 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.960 Now, the thing is that each of these aircraft in their turn, when 403 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:37.559 they got to a range of about twenty five miles, had their electronics and 404 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.079 communications systems tampered with. In one case, the pilot was about to fire 405 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.359 a missile at this object, when at that moment it's almost as if his 406 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:51.480 finger was like lifted right above the button when his missile system went offline. 407 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.960 The second pilot came in about a half hour later, had a similar experience. 408 00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:00.400 Those of these men tracked the object on their airborne radar. They both 409 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:06.640 saw the object visually, so you have multiple COMA confirmations here. The object's 410 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.200 radar return was as large or larger than a commercial airline. It was quite 411 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:15.400 large, and in the second F four, as it approached the UFO dropped 412 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:21.480 this smaller object out of it, which then went on an intersteff course of 413 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:25.079 the F four. The pilot, almost in a state of panic, turned 414 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:30.480 as sharply as he could away, and this smaller object turned inside his own 415 00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:35.680 arc according to this US military document, and then rejoined the mother craft. 416 00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:40.400 For a perfect rejoint. We have a four page Defense Intelligence Agency document describing 417 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:46.880 this in vivid detail. It's truly extraordinary. We also have the interviews by 418 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:51.799 one of the pilots who later became a general years later, describing it had 419 00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:59.000 great length. We also have US Defense satellite information. We had a particular 420 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:07.000 defense satellite called the Defense Support Program at DSP satellite which tracked a UFO at 421 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.400 exactly that place and time. So, in other words, we have multiple 422 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:15.119 confirmations of an extraordinary thing here. The question that I keep asking myself is 423 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:21.199 what could do the things that this object did? It was stationary in the 424 00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.559 air, It was able to detach an object that had extraordinary maneuverability. It 425 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:30.079 was able to disable two top line fighter planes in the world at that time, 426 00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.519 disabled their electronics gear. And no one has claimed this object, and 427 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:40.840 this is now over thirty years ago. Whether it's of human manufacture or extraterrestrial, 428 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:45.719 it's almost a secondary issue here. The real question the military historians should 429 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:50.119 be asking is what the hell can do that? Right? And of course 430 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:55.320 what you find within the mainstream is bland dismissal of these cases because they frankly 431 00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:00.159 what you find is they haven't bothered to really look at it. Right there. 432 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:04.239 It is these cases, like you said, you've got these twelve cases 433 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.400 you go over in this story with government documents. You know, you brought 434 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:13.719 up a good question, is there are all of these craft being seen that 435 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:19.719 seem to be demonstrating this incredible technology, some of these incidents happening thirty forty 436 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.960 fifty years ago, you know, when we certainly didn't have anything that could 437 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:27.840 go, you know, seven thousand miles per hour and make right hand turns 438 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.480 like people are seeing. So, but then we have the extraterrestrial hypothesis that 439 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:37.280 they could be extraterrestrial, and some people struggle with that. Do you subscribe 440 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:42.079 to the hypothesis that some are extraterrestrial? And if so, why, Well, 441 00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:45.480 I think that it's it's still a very reasonable hypothesis. I don't think 442 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:49.679 that it answers everything that's going on. I think that there's a very good 443 00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.320 likelihood that what we're dealing with is is much stranger even than you know, 444 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.639 men from another planet kind of thing like the day of the Earth. But 445 00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:01.159 still, nonetheless, yes, I do, I think that it's a reasonable 446 00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:04.960 hypothesis. Look, I mean, going back to the forties and fifties, 447 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.039 to say nothing of our own age. If you have an object that is 448 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:12.760 tracked on multiple radars, doing multiple thousands of miles per hour right angle turns 449 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.480 and stopping on the dime, it's a reasonable question to ask is who's making 450 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.519 them. Our own analysts asked this question back then. They wondered were the 451 00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:22.800 Soviets doing it? Well, there has never been any evidence, not been 452 00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:29.039 on now that the Soviets made such a breakthrough, and there are arguments, 453 00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:36.000 yes, that we have covertly with acquired Nazi technologies, say made these breakthroughs, 454 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.559 but again, the evidence for this is not as strong as you would 455 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:43.559 think. There is evidence that we've been researching it, and it's very possible 456 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:47.239 that breakthroughs are made. On the other hand, there's a lot of evidence 457 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.480 for the reality of an abduction phenomenon I view, and there's a lot of 458 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:58.519 evidence, even aside from abductions, of people who have claimed to see beings 459 00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:04.880 that are not human associated with these crafts. So I think an extraterrestrial hypothesis 460 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:09.039 is totally reasonable. Yeah, although not proven. I want to let people 461 00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:12.800 know that you can give us a call. In the last few minutes here 462 00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.599 at six two, two, seven, seven, five, three, six 463 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.239 nine. If you're local, or if you're not, you can call one 464 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:23.840 eight sixty six five three six eleven hundred and coll In and asked questions. 465 00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:29.079 But getting into that piece, you talked about a lot of evidence for abduction. 466 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:34.679 What is some of that evidence? Well, they're uh, you know, 467 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.760 going back to the sixties, you have the case of Betty and Barney 468 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.159 Hill who were driving through New Hampshire and they had a couple of hours of 469 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.880 missing time after seeing a UFO. They didn't know what happened. They went 470 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:50.559 through a regressive hypnosis several years later and independently recalled the same type of experience 471 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:55.480 being taken by ets. And of course this has been duplicated now thousands and 472 00:37:55.559 --> 00:38:01.360 thousands of times by many with many other people. The question comes down to 473 00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:07.480 how reliable is something like regressive hypnosis, although keep in mind that there are 474 00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:12.280 many people who have spontaneous memories of abduction experiences. They don't all need regression. 475 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:15.880 In other words, what I think is most likely is that these other 476 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:21.159 beings have a very advanced ability to play games with the human memory and to 477 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:23.599 play games with the human mind, and so that in most cases, the 478 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:30.159 default setting is to wipe someone's memory, but you can you know, the 479 00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:32.559 mind is a complicated thing. Maybe things can't get wiped completely, and so 480 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:37.360 eventually things come to the surface, just like a body that's not properly disposed 481 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:43.119 of, memories will come back to the surface as well. These memories show 482 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:49.039 a great deal of consistency, and this is in my view, not strictly 483 00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:52.039 due to this being out in the popular culture. There are a lot of 484 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:58.239 details of the abduction experience that are still not widely known, that typically still 485 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:04.280 come out in a wide range of regressions that are done around the world. 486 00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:08.559 That's one thing that shocked me is all the things that aren't documented in this 487 00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:13.280 field. It shocked me that when I got into this because I was skeptical 488 00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:16.519 about abduction, but a lot of researchers, once who I respected, did 489 00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:21.119 believe in it. And then when I found the evidence that you can't find 490 00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.360 out there in a lot of books, that was shocking to me. And 491 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:29.239 then I started meeting these people and seeing that there are there's physical evidence for 492 00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:31.280 this kind of thing exactly. It's very easy to dismiss it when you haven't 493 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:36.599 talked to a bunch of people who have gone through what they believe are abduction 494 00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.639 experiences. You've done it, I've done it. That doesn't prove that it's 495 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:45.079 real. But I will say when you put a human faith on this and 496 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.079 you actually meet these people, most of are very intelligent, or at least 497 00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:52.440 you've got a very good cross section of the population here. And some of 498 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.519 these people are extremely brilliant, insightful, thoughtful people, and some of the 499 00:39:55.599 --> 00:40:00.880 case so I just think that they're confabulating it. These cases, like you 500 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.639 mentioned Betty and Barney Hill, the gentleman in Maine, where there are those 501 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:08.320 four gentlemen, the Allagash abduction case. Yeah, the Allagash case, and 502 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:15.679 they separately went through regression and remembered very detailed things such as what these creatures 503 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:21.960 look like, how they're hands, the kind of their morphology that was very 504 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.719 unique, nothing like anything that had been in science fiction or anything. And 505 00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:30.000 keeping in mind also that the large majority of these people do not seek some 506 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.480 publicity at all. In fact, a number of the people, including those 507 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:37.000 some in the Allagash case, refused to believe that they were abducted by aliens, 508 00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:42.480 even though they will freely admit that these are the recollections that they have. 509 00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:46.719 Sometimes they'll just I think for psychological preservation, they'll say, well, 510 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:50.000 you know, maybe it's some kind of crazy memory that I got. Who 511 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.840 knows that they're not necessarily willing even to admit that they were abducted by aliens. 512 00:40:53.880 --> 00:41:00.079 Nonetheless, those are their memory, So it's not a simple thing of 513 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:05.559 people wanting attention and this kind of nonsense that you hear many skeptics putting out. 514 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:07.360 One of the things that shocked me as well, where some of the 515 00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.840 memories people had that they didn't retrieve these in regression. I mean, they 516 00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:17.599 have these memories. They remembered things without regression. Absolutely, and this makes 517 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:23.320 ridiculous certain arguments by skeptics like doctor Susan Clancy over at Harvard University, who 518 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.119 I am convinced has really not done any serious study of this at all, 519 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.320 even though she's had the gall to write about it, calling all of the 520 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:40.280 abductions essentially, you know, sleep paralysis and incorrectly remembered dreams. I think 521 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:45.119 this is totally wrong. Some of many abduction cases do occur at night, 522 00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:50.519 it's true, but not all, and some are very consciously recalled. So 523 00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:54.360 this is not an explanation. It seems like she was just countering the excellent 524 00:41:54.480 --> 00:42:00.480 work of another Harvard professor, John Mack, who unfortunately passed away some great 525 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:02.960 work in this Harvard was embarrassed by Mac and I think they had to put 526 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.639 someone else to counter him to preserve their respectability. All right, well, 527 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:12.960 we are out of time unfortunately. Thanks for being on the show. Next 528 00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:16.440 week we have Richard Laying, a UFO investigator from mo Fun. He's part 529 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:22.079 of their rapid Response team. Visit our website at openminds dot tv to find 530 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:28.519 more information about advertising and our news stories. Thanks for listening to Open Minds 531 00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:58.960 Radio on CAMFINEX. You want yours KKs, lego, folks, creatious, 532 00:42:59.079 --> 00:46:19.320 Welcome there. For all herself lived with this chat had stupid b u h Yeah