1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,520 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,320 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by author Bruce Goldfarbe, talking to 11 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:53,039 us about his book Eighteen Tiny Deaths, The Untold Story of the Woman who 12 00:00:53,119 --> 00:00:57,159 invented modern forensics. Bruce, thank you so much for joining us today. 13 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:00,039 Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be talking about one of 14 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:04,280 my favorite subjects. Start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,799 you got involved in writing about true crime. I started out as a young 16 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,640 man as an EMT and a paramedic and a frustrated firefighter, and eased my 17 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,319 way into freelance writing. I didn't really have an interest in true crime so 18 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:25,200 much as I was writing about science and medicine. That's, in a very 19 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,680 roundabout way got me working at the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner for the 20 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,799 State of Maryland, where they had they located the nutshell studies of unexplained that. 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,640 So I had this opportunity to spend time with the dioramas. I actually 22 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:42,280 ended up being the curator of them, to learn more about them and other 23 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,799 facts that were associated with them, like Francis Plistner Lee who created them, 24 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,359 and how they were used. And I just I don't know what to say. 25 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:53,480 It was the path of least resistance. And here I am tell us, 26 00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:59,439 how many years back is it your original affiliation with the Office of the 27 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:04,680 Medical Exacs Way back in the nineteen nineties, when I was an independent writer, 28 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,039 a freelance writer, I was very mercenary, so I was strictly in 29 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,479 it for the money. As a freelancer, you have to make money whenever 30 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:15,199 you can. One of the publications I wrote for was American Medical News, 31 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:21,319 which was the weekly newspaper of American Medical Association, and they paid really well 32 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,439 for feature stories about doctors. They love stories about doctors who had vineyards through 33 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:30,159 doctors who collected art. And I wrote about a gang, a motorcycle gang 34 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:37,000 of doctors. And I wrote about a doctor who studied ancient Egyptian pyramid pyrit 35 00:02:37,159 --> 00:02:42,360 manuscripts. And I had heard about these diorromas that were at the Medical Examiner's 36 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,439 office. This was in the early nineteen nineties, I believe ninety one ninety 37 00:02:45,439 --> 00:02:47,319 two, and I just did this one off story. I just did a 38 00:02:47,319 --> 00:02:53,360 feature story for America Medical News about these dioramas of death that were used to 39 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:57,039 train death investigators, and that was it. I thought it was done with 40 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,000 it. The story kept coming back to me. People asked me to arrange 41 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,680 a visit, and I kept coming back to the Medical Examiner's office again and 42 00:03:04,719 --> 00:03:07,400 again. They got to know me there. In twenty twelve, I was 43 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:14,520 working for as an editor for some hyper local news website and arranged for a 44 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,280 tour at the Medical Examiner's office for a group of editors. And while we're 45 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:23,599 on the tour, they mentioned that they had this position as an assistant for 46 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,719 the chief who'll be working in the Chief's office, would be the public information 47 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,879 officer for the OCME and would do troubleshooting. An ideal candidate would be a 48 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,560 say, an EMT with the newswriting experience, and it was pretty much ideal 49 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,360 for me. So I got the job, and that's when I began working 50 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,520 much closer with the dioramas. It was actually because I was the low man 51 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,560 in the total pole. I was the new guy, and they basically threw 52 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,120 the keys at me, and they said, it's your problem. Now you 53 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:55,199 can deal with it. You changed the light bulbs, and you deal with 54 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:02,240 it. So great. It was an ordinary experience to look inside and to 55 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,240 see how they were made, and to see details that were never captured on 56 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,560 any images, and secrets that they held, and all kinds of things. 57 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,520 It was an extraordinary experience. Can you tell us a little bit more detail 58 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:21,720 about what these dioramas look like and why they were referred to as nutshell studies? 59 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,920 Sure. Francis Klesner Lee, who created them, was affiliated with Harvard 60 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:31,199 Medical School, where she had established a program up there, and she and 61 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,480 the chairman of the department doctor Alan Moritz had. At the time, there 62 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:43,079 were no real homicide detectives. The police were not necessarily the best in the 63 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,680 brightest. A lot of them were functionally illiterate. They weren't high school graduates. 64 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,639 There were big, strong brutes who could be didn't have to have interviewing 65 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,240 skills or critical thinking skills if you could beat a confession out of somebody, 66 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,439 and the cops were big dumb guys. She under took to train police and 67 00:05:01,879 --> 00:05:08,839 scientific methods of death investigation what we now know of as forensic science and forensic 68 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:14,040 medicine, and she was the one to really introduce this in a systematic educational 69 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:17,920 way. She began the seminar in nineteen forty five, and participants in this 70 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,759 program would learn about sharp force injuries and blunt force injuries, and poisoning and 71 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,680 drowning, all these death related topics, but the most important piece was the 72 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,920 crime scene itself, because you only have one chance to do things right, 73 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:39,639 and up until that time they weren't. They would move evidence, they would 74 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,240 move the body, they would walk through blood, they would handle things. 75 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:47,279 And she had this problem of how do you teach somebody to observe a crime 76 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:50,879 scene. How do you teach somebody to look and they talked it through. 77 00:05:51,399 --> 00:05:57,759 You really couldn't do it by a moving picture. You'd have to zoom in, 78 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,519 and what it is you want somebody to see, image doesn't really quite 79 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,759 capture it. I could show you a picture of evidence, but that's really 80 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:09,360 not the same thing as standing there and making you find it yourself. And 81 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:13,800 that's the first step that you need to be able to recognize evidence so you 82 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,920 can preserve it, so you can collect it, so you can process it 83 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:20,680 properly, and then analyze it properly. But the very first thing is recognizing 84 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:24,839 it preserving it. If you don't preserve it up front, everything else is 85 00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:27,959 the whole trajectory of everything is ruined. This was her solution, was to 86 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,920 make little crime scenes. Because they were mainly the police were mostly men, 87 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,720 adult men. She wanted to make sure that they were not toilet like, 88 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:42,680 so she went to great lengths to make sure that these were as realistic as 89 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,959 possible. She never used the expression to suspend disbelief, but she wanted somebody 90 00:06:46,959 --> 00:06:50,399 to get immersed in this little world. And so they're all built on a 91 00:06:50,439 --> 00:06:55,120 scale of one inch to one foot, which is a standard sized for miniatures, 92 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,920 and they're mostly domestic scenes and residences. These are people of all walks 93 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,560 of life. There are some sex workers, there's a lot of alcohol and 94 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,439 violence, and there's some domestic violence, and it really does reflect, I 95 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,879 think, lifestyles that were removed from her own life. She was very much 96 00:07:12,879 --> 00:07:16,040 a wealthy woman of society and memes, so that's what she did. I've 97 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:21,000 described them as nineteen forties virtual reality, but I've had many homicide detectives tell 98 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,040 me that it is about as close as you can get to a real crime 99 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:32,480 scene. It's interesting to me that Francis Klesner Lee is not your typical grandmotherly 100 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,560 type of lady. We were saying off air. She's a badass, she's 101 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,920 a force of nature, and she's certainly not your typical forensic scientist. Why 102 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,360 was it so unusual for women to be involved in fields like medicine and forensics 103 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,639 in the early part of the twentieth century. We've got people now, I'm 104 00:07:49,639 --> 00:07:54,399 sure who can't imagine a time in which one would not have been involved with 105 00:07:54,439 --> 00:07:57,639 this. Can you shed some light on that historical component? There were some 106 00:07:57,839 --> 00:08:01,120 women in medicine at the time, Actually in an nineteenth century, I believe 107 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,759 there was something like twelve or fourteen women's medical schools. It was not there. 108 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,079 Granted, there were not as many women doctors then as there are now, 109 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:13,879 but certainly in law enforcement was almost exclusively a men's club from the very 110 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,959 beginning, back from the night watch days in the colonial times. And it 111 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,399 really wasn't until right around the turn of the twentieth century that you start women 112 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:31,920 were actually recruited in the police first to look for a juvenile delinquency and in 113 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:35,639 the tenement it's almost like social work. It took a while for women to 114 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,279 be given badges and the arrest powers and the uniform that came later on, 115 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,320 but even in the nineteen there were women. I believe in nineteen twenty five 116 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,480 there were actually women detectives in New York City, And to follow through on 117 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:54,519 that point, even today in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four, although 118 00:08:54,559 --> 00:09:00,000 there are quite a few women in the police force in uniformed police office, 119 00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:05,399 once you go up in the command into the officers and chiefs, there's not 120 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,840 so many. So there's still quite a ways to go in terms of any 121 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,399 sort of equality. But it always was a men's club, and it was 122 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:20,639 just had always been that way, mainly because it involves violence. And there 123 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,039 certainly was this belief that women who were too delicate constitution to be dealing with 124 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,840 such shocking matters. It took some time for there to find their role, 125 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:37,639 and she just totally broke through all of that. Francis Glestner Lee did that 126 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:43,120 glass ceiling was definitely not there for her because she had the money, because 127 00:09:43,159 --> 00:09:48,159 she could afford it. She had a very powerful personality, and when you're 128 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,720 a millionairess, you can get people to pay attention to you. That was 129 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,799 actually going to be my next question, how did she use her wealth and 130 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,080 her position in society to her advantage, because she clearly did, and I 131 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,000 don't falter for that, Absolutely she should. I wish there were more like 132 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:07,960 her. She was born into wealth, it wasn't her fault. Her parents 133 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,639 were wealthy, and she always felt that she hadn't earned her privilege and really 134 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,039 felt unneed. In learning about her life, I found that she was dissatisfied. 135 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,960 She was looking for something to do, something meaningful. Really, she 136 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,600 could have spent her life going to cocktail receptions and collecting art and traveling and 137 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:30,720 doing these things that wealthy people do, and nobody would have been a wiser 138 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,919 and nobody would have blamed her for it. But she chose to use her 139 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:37,759 money like a parrot and a stick, and she would dangle her money to 140 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,080 manipulate others to do her bidding, and she got Harvard Medical School to do 141 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:48,840 things for her and to begin this program by promising them boatloads of money. 142 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:54,440 She had a very powerful personality. She was very difficult, she was strong 143 00:10:54,519 --> 00:11:00,000 willed, she was smart as a whip. She had been very wealthy, 144 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,879 trained and tutored from an early age, and she was fluent in multiple languages, 145 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,879 mathematics and sciences and arts and culture. You're raised like that, and 146 00:11:09,879 --> 00:11:13,039 then what you've got your life and you're going to go to another museum, 147 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:18,480 opening another gallery, talk about decorative arts. She really was looking for something 148 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,840 challenging to send her teeth into it, and she found it in forensic medicine. 149 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:28,519 Do you know why she was initially so attracted to this field, which 150 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,559 is, let's face it pretty dark. There's blood and guts and gore and 151 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:37,799 violence, and this just seems out of the norm for women at that time. 152 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:41,240 What was it about this field that grabbed her? Attention. She had 153 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:46,399 a sense of justice. Really, if you read about Francis Clesderley online, 154 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:52,960 she's depicted as this wealthy grandmother who had an interest in murder and solving murders, 155 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,120 and it's absolutely not true. She never investigated the case herself, and 156 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,440 just as we have the Innocence Project today, she was as concerned, if 157 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,919 not more concerned about people who were wrongfully accused of crimes. It's just as 158 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:13,159 important to clear the innocent as it is to convict the guilty. There are 159 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,440 two sides of the same coin. It's about getting the right person. That 160 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,919 was initially what got her interest. She had a friend, it was actually 161 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:26,720 her brother's best friend who went to Harvard a doctor by the name of George 162 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:33,000 Burgess McGrath. And doctor McGrath was the medical examiner in Suffolk County where Boston 163 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,120 is, and he was the first pathologist to be appointed as a medical examiner, 164 00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:41,480 so he was literally's first forensic pathologist, and he was involved in a 165 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,919 number of these high profile cases. The nineteen nineteen Boston molasses disaster was his 166 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,360 case, the Saco and Venzetti case, and so he had really gained this 167 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:58,039 reputation as a crime doctor really sherlocky, and it got this reputation as for 168 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:03,200 applying these scientific principles to death investigation. And they spent some time together in 169 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,279 nineteen twenty nine. They had been friends since she was a teenager, but 170 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,679 it wasn't until nineteen twenty nine when they spent the summer together and he's talking 171 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:15,279 about his work and the injustice of it, and how the country most of 172 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,159 the countries on the coroner system, and the difference in corners of medical examiners, 173 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:22,879 and it was literally like as though a switch was flipped in her brain. 174 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:26,480 She was at that time in a pretty dark place in her own life. 175 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,200 Her brother had died, her children had grown up and been married, 176 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,440 and she was very much alone and adrift without anything to do really, and 177 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:39,559 doctor McGrath came along and just threw this out here about we should have medical 178 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:43,679 examiners from coast to coast, and she said, yeah, we should, 179 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:48,240 and she just spent the rest of her life to try and act what he 180 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,879 had envisioned. It's so cool. F Scott Fitzgerald said, there are no 181 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,960 second acts in American lives. And I feel like Francis Klosner Lee's greatest part 182 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,960 of her life was her second act doing all of this amazing work for the 183 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,039 criminal justice system. As you mentioned before, it wasn't just the Nutshell Studies 184 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:11,039 and Harvard Medical. She was advocating for education for death investigators. And do 185 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:18,360 you feel like we have done enough now to bring her dream to fruition or 186 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:22,200 do we still have a long way to go in terms of reaching a point 187 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,120 where she would look at us and go, you know what, you guys 188 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:30,320 are doing great? Unfortunately, very little has changed since her death in nineteen 189 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,480 sixty two when she got in. When Francis presently got involved in nineteen twenty 190 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:39,320 nine, medical examiners existed in three places in the entire United States. They 191 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:45,399 were Boston was first in eighteen seventy seven, New York City was second in 192 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:48,720 nineteen seventeen, nineteen eighteen, and New Jersey, which was like nineteen twenty 193 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,720 five, twenty six, something like that, and that was it. The 194 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,320 rest of the country was still on the corner system, which is literally from 195 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:03,879 the Middle Ages, not terribly signed, typic not reliable, corrupt and competent. 196 00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:11,080 And she, Francis single handedly, not only she spent literally millions to 197 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:16,320 establish a training program at Harvard Medical School to train doctors the first clinical program 198 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,799 what was then called legal medicine. We now call it forensic medicine. But 199 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:26,200 she created a field of medical practice from scratch, from the ground up. 200 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:31,399 She also lobbied at state lawmakers and governors to change the law. It's a 201 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:37,360 complicated process to move from corners to medical examiners. In some cases, you 202 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,559 have to change the state constitution. You have to abolish the office, abolish 203 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:46,840 corners in quest change the law to authorize a medical examiner. And this takes 204 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:50,679 time. There's a lot of special interests against it. The corners obviously funeral 205 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,720 homes tradition. When she died in nineteen sixty two, she left about half 206 00:15:56,759 --> 00:16:02,639 the country still on the corner system. Today have coroners. There are medical 207 00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:08,120 examiners in I believe twenty eight states coroners exclusively. I believe in fourteen states, 208 00:16:08,279 --> 00:16:12,799 and the other states have a combination of medical examiners and coroners. Illinois, 209 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,919 for example, there's what one hundred counties. There are medical examiners in 210 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,360 Cook County and Chicago, but the rest of the state is covered by these 211 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:26,399 corners of various qualifications and experience. We had talked to doctor Michael Bodden a 212 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:32,000 couple of months ago on mind Over Murder, and he was very critical of 213 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:36,720 the coroner system and said how antiquated it was and that many of these people 214 00:16:36,759 --> 00:16:42,799 that are coroners have really little to know qualifications to make determinations about how people 215 00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:48,240 have died or to determine whether crimes had been committed. Is that how you 216 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:52,000 think Francis saw it as well? It's still true, Yes, that's exactly 217 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:56,960 it. And she was particularly critical of local sheriffs, who she had absolutely 218 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,240 no time for whatsoever. She had a lot regard for state police because they 219 00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:06,799 often had college degrees, they're disciplined, and we're good at taking orders. 220 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,799 She thought that state police would be the ones that would be investigating debt, 221 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:14,519 so she focused on state police the corner situation. Of the twenty eight states 222 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:18,440 that have corners, only a third have any sort of requirement at all for 223 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,880 any counter call educational requirement, and those that do require any sort of education, 224 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,279 where typically it's forty to eighty hours one to two weeks of training. 225 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,079 Not to pick on Missouri, this is true in Missouri, Indiana, Colorado, 226 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,160 New York. Places that elect corners to office in the state of Missouri. 227 00:17:38,279 --> 00:17:41,279 To be a corner, you have to live in the state for one 228 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,039 year. You have to live in that county where you want to practice for 229 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:48,519 at least six months. You have to be of legal age. To hold 230 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:52,240 public office, you have to be twenty one or older, and you have 231 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:55,759 to get more votes than anybody else. That's it. It's it. No 232 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:03,079 medical requirements whatsoever. Now out to be a licensed barber in the state of 233 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,359 Missouri, and to legally cut hair, you have to have fifteen hundred hours 234 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,920 of training and pass a test. To be a manicurist and legally give a 235 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,920 manicure, you have to have five hundred hours of training and pass the test. 236 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,359 But if you're elected corner, you can crack open a beer and start 237 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,000 signing cause met or death and desertificuess you're good to go. So now, 238 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:30,119 the person that cuts your hair or styles your nails has a significantly higher level 239 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:37,200 of training and expertise than does the person who tells your relatives how you died 240 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,240 and by what method, and whether or not perhaps a crime was committed. 241 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:48,359 Vast parts of the country today are covered by that very system. That's insane. 242 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,119 It really is. There's no other word for it. I can't argue 243 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,160 with you. It is insane. There should be you would think in this 244 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,799 day and age, people love these TV shows, They watch the sea shows, 245 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:07,559 and they have the belief that anytime somebody dies, there is a group 246 00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:11,119 of well trained professionals who come to the scene and they scrub and they find 247 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,839 evidence, and they test all these things in the laboratory. That does not 248 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:21,319 happen in most parts of the country. That's not the way it works. 249 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:23,200 You're lucky if you get somebody to come to the house and look around. 250 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:27,640 You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 251 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:38,039 our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. How does Francis Lesnarley get 252 00:19:38,079 --> 00:19:42,319 the idea that she's going to use what I thought of when I saw the 253 00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:48,400 photographs. They're almost like dollhouses, the rooms within a dollhouse, but with 254 00:19:48,839 --> 00:19:56,880 extremely sad and often violent outcomes portrayed an incredible detail. How did she dream 255 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:03,640 up this idea? I'm going to use use these little dioramas to train these 256 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,759 people who clearly need all the training they can get. How did she dream 257 00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:14,359 up this idea? If you read the book. There's actually an evolution towards 258 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,759 the models. I believe it was the nineteen thirty six World's Fair that was 259 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:25,039 the first time that legal medicine for forensic medicine was presented to the public, 260 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,799 and they did. There was a very small exhibit, and this was their 261 00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:33,720 idea was to have the photograph of a car crash and to ask the questions 262 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,480 was this an accident or was it murdered? So that had that idea had 263 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:44,200 been tried, presenting a case and asking questions about it, and it got 264 00:20:44,279 --> 00:20:48,000 more and more evolved, apparently issues having a discussion with the doctor McGrath at 265 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:52,359 one point, he's talking about a difficult case that he had and the difficulties 266 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:57,720 that in the courtroom in expressing to the jury exactly how things were were, 267 00:20:57,799 --> 00:21:02,799 the way things were positioned and their location and their relation to each other. 268 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,559 And she suggested at the time, what if we just made a little model 269 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:11,200 and presented that in court. So they actually do that in cases today. 270 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,680 It's not uncommon for a complicated scene, they'll make a little model and they'll 271 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,559 show that to the jury as to where everything was. Having the need you 272 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:23,519 want to teach somebody to observe a crime scene. There just weren't crime scenes 273 00:21:23,559 --> 00:21:26,680 when you needed them. You just you know, and you can't take a 274 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:32,200 whole class of people walking through a crime scene. Logistically, there's just all 275 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,640 these problems. And it was really she had this background in the decroot of 276 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:40,839 arts. Miniatures are much more of a thing back and when she was a 277 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,400 child, and she had been trained since she was very little in knitting and 278 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,279 sewing and all these domestic arts. And once again it was just she had 279 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:56,319 the skill set to apply to this problem of how do you teach all just 280 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,720 make little miniatures perfect? That's the answer. And it worked. And not 281 00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:03,359 only did it work, then there's still nothing better for that. There's still 282 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,279 use today, there's still relevant, and there's still a model part and the 283 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,599 pun for other similar training. There are other programs that have returned to miniatures 284 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,160 for the purposes of teaching forensic death investigation. When did she get an inkling 285 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:23,559 that, oh, this is working. Was it immediate or did it take 286 00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:27,759 a couple of years before it became a parent that Okay, teaching news in 287 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:32,359 the miniatures, this is actually helping, this is doing some good. The 288 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,200 feedback really from the miniatures was right from the get go. These guys. 289 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,279 She did basically a little focus group. She invited some few detectives to her 290 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:44,920 home. Take a look at these What do you think? And right off 291 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,880 the bed, this is just amazing, It's mind blowing, just great. 292 00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:52,799 It was very useful. I've had many I've talked with many homicide detectives over 293 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:57,559 the years, and I've had them tell me that even if you're an experienced 294 00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:00,880 cop, you can be doing bby, you can be doing other things for 295 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,599 years and years. Once you get to a homicide scene, it's a whole 296 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:11,079 different ballgame. Everything you know it's totally out the window. A homicide scene 297 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,079 is different, a death scene is different than anything else, and you really 298 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:21,440 don't want to learn on your first actual scene. It's great experience having this 299 00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:26,119 little practice and the fact that they are so detailed. It's very useful, 300 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,920 and so at least you have that a little bit more confidence, a systematical 301 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,599 way of going about your search. You learn these ways. It's not just 302 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,079 an exercise and looking at these toys. But she had a very purposeful way 303 00:23:38,079 --> 00:23:41,119 that you should approach a crime scene. And she had a methodical way. 304 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,960 Should start with the left and you lurk and you go in a counterclockwise way 305 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,759 from the perfery towards the middle of the room. So she had this whole 306 00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:52,200 system for looking at a scene. And it was quite clear that not only 307 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,799 was that a useful way of teaching, but that the courses themselves paid off 308 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:03,880 quite quickly in terms of identifying missteps that were avoided, improving investigation, solving 309 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,440 cases. But there was no question if this was a it was a useful 310 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:15,880 approach and that was valuable. Where were the dioramas originally located. They were 311 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,960 located at Harvard Medical School in Boston. She had a room built for her 312 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,960 to her specifications to locate them, and when she died in nineteen sixty two. 313 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,000 Over the course of the nineteen fifties, the relationship between Francis personally and 314 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,319 Harvard Medical Schools soured. She ended up not leaving any money to Harvard at 315 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,559 all. She didn't want Harvard to have the nutshells. She died in nineteen 316 00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:45,119 sixty two and Harvard lost interest in the whole program and they pulled the plug 317 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,920 and the legal medicine department and to this day they don't have a forensic pathologist 318 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,880 on the faculty of Harvard Medical School. I heard that the dioramas were actually 319 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,680 headed towards the dumpster by the nineteen sixties. They were decades old, dusty 320 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:06,319 artifacts that nobody really wanted. And the guy who is the chief medical examiner 321 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,480 in Maryland, Russell Fisher, who was quite a prominent forensic pathologist and he 322 00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:12,880 was chief here, had been through the Harvard program, and Francis knew him. 323 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,440 She recommended for the job here. So Fisher went to Harvard and said, 324 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,599 how about we pick up the homicide seminar. We'll do it in Baltimore. 325 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,640 And Harvard said, great, you can do it. You take these 326 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:29,119 things and they brought them down to Baltimore in nineteen sixty eight and they've been 327 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,200 here ever since. Okay, the sixty four thousand dollars question that I'm really 328 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:37,400 hoping you're going to say yes to. Can people go to visit the nutshell 329 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,160 studies who are not homicide investigators? I really want to see these things so 330 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:47,799 bad they were close to the public for quite a while. I have been 331 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:56,240 fighting for open more open access since leaving there. The OCME has finally broken 332 00:25:56,319 --> 00:26:02,319 down and they have allowed visits for one hour. Is it an hour two 333 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,440 hours, one day a month, the first Tuesday of East month. You 334 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,480 can have to call in advance to get a reservation, but they are open 335 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:12,279 to the public on a limited basis. Yes, I'm putting it on the 336 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:18,160 calendar. Ye. Now, several years ago the Smithsonian had an exhibit. 337 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:23,759 We're all eighteen or nineteen. I see two different numbers of the dioramas on 338 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:30,559 display at that Smithsonian exhibit. Yes, they actually had nineteen. There were 339 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,640 originally twenty. They're actually more than twenty one. There were twenty that were 340 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:40,759 completed. One of them got sidetracked and was up in the rafters in New 341 00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:44,599 Hampshire and was never used for teaching. One of them, unfortunately, got 342 00:26:44,599 --> 00:26:48,160 destroyed. So we're left with eighteen of them that were used for teaching in 343 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,359 Baltimore. And when I started in twenty twelve and had the opportunity to look 344 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,480 more closely inside the cabinets, I noticed some things. I'm a lay person, 345 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:03,920 but I found what I thought asbestos. Cute, tiny little asbestos, 346 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,640 but there was crumbling asbestos. And some of them had as bestis wrapped around 347 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:14,480 light fixtures and that was crumbling, and there were materials that were cracking they 348 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,079 were old. These were with seventy year old, eighty year old artifacts. 349 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,839 They'd never really been conserved. They've been cleaned, but never really been looked 350 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:26,079 over. And I guess it was twenty sixteen. I got a call from 351 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:33,119 Nora Atkinson, who is the curator the Smithsonian's Renwick Gallery and the Runwick does 352 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,759 crafts. It's located literally right across the street from the White House on Pennsylvania 353 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:41,240 Avenue, and she came up to look at them and just thinking out loud, 354 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,400 and she said, what if we didn't exhibit, what would you think 355 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,079 of that? And of course we would do that. They'd have to be 356 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,400 conserved and fixed before they could be moved. They were very delicate, and 357 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,000 so they basically offered to do. It ended up being I don't know, 358 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:00,960 a quarter million or more worth of work on the diorama. And they replaced 359 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,160 all the light bulbs and they all the cracked painting. They just did amazing, 360 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:08,720 extraordinary work. And that was the tradeoff, was that they would have 361 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:11,839 them all on exhibit. They even got the one down from New Hampshire. 362 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:17,440 It was the first time all nineteen were together since they were created. It 363 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:22,720 was the second most popular exhibit at the Renwick Gallery up until that time had 364 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:26,440 one hundred thousand people go through the gallery. It was extraordinary. When they 365 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,160 came back from the Smithsonian and back in their cabinets, they were all repaired 366 00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:37,160 and fixed and they're good for generations now. They're in great shape nowns. 367 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,079 So I feel very good about that. We've got a lobby lobby the OCME 368 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:47,799 in Maryland to open this up beyond one hour a month, because if one 369 00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:53,319 hundred thousand people came to see these incredible dioramas, with these amazingly detailed and 370 00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:59,279 we'll include some links in our show notes here death scenes, you would think 371 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:03,799 that there'd be a real interest in this, even if they charged ten bucks 372 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,319 or whatever to come in and take a look at them. Unfortunately, they 373 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:12,839 can't charge for one thing. But I appreciate that they're going to suit through 374 00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:17,440 some things. At the moment, they've had an acting chief since for the 375 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,640 past couple of years. They've just had a very bad manpower shortage. They're 376 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:26,839 very severely short of staff, and they had a backlog of autopsison. They 377 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:33,400 have some problems and honestly, entertaining the public's morbid curiosity is really not within 378 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,880 their main mission and I totally get that, Yeah, understood, but their 379 00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:45,759 value as teaching tools is still valid. I still get contacted from death investigators, 380 00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:52,440 from people with the legitimate, real, genuine instructional professional interest, and 381 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,240 they can't get in. Hopefully, maybe in time we'll see I don't know. 382 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,640 And your point about the Chief Medical Examiners Office and the challenges they were 383 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,359 facing, we don't mean to make light of that. When you've got autopsies 384 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:11,839 that aren't being conducted and staff shortages, and I'm sure their challenges are significant. 385 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,440 This probably would fall further down on the to do list. It does. 386 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:21,160 Yeah, so our listeners know that I am a big fan of CSI, 387 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,640 and I realized that some people may view that was a little bit of 388 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,519 chagrin, but it's what actually got me very much interested in true crime. 389 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:32,400 When did you learn that CSI had written an arc about the Miniature Killer which 390 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,680 was based on the nutshell Studies? Probably from day one. People love even 391 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,079 people who didn't know about her, they knew about her in popular culture. 392 00:30:42,359 --> 00:30:47,640 They knew about the dioramas. People even online. I don't know where they 393 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,279 hear about it, but they knew about the Nutshells. Before they even know 394 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:53,279 who she was or the whole context or anything else. And they still ask 395 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,640 and read it in places where we talk about the dioramas and somebody say, 396 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,200 is that the inspiration for the miniatures killers? Yes? That was. Yes, 397 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:07,119 they came and visited, they looked at them. And what was the 398 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,160 other in CIS? So what David McCallum, They played Ducky. He also 399 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,039 apparently was a fan of Francis. And my phone just lit up. There 400 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,079 was that episode you mentioned Francis and the dioramas, and boom, I just 401 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:23,880 get bombarded with emails and everybody told me she was mentioned again. How do 402 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:30,319 you think she would feel about being now part of this massive pop culture phenomenon 403 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,519 that is CSI and and CIS. Would she be cool with that or would 404 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:37,720 she be like you guys, settle down. Personally, she was quite reserved. 405 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,680 She really didn't want the attention and actually was her choice to stay in 406 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:48,240 the background. And very early on in the nineteen forties nineteen fifties, the 407 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:52,920 program in what she was doing at Harvard, they got covered in Life magazine 408 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,000 and Saturday Evening Post and Popular Mechanics and all these magazines and the bust and 409 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,799 Chlobe, and it got to the point where I think she got a little 410 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:07,319 tired of being portrayed as this wealthy model maker who is sort of sitting on 411 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,960 the sidelines and just I don't know, helping the boys do their work, 412 00:32:12,359 --> 00:32:15,240 and she just got tired of it. Just leave me out of it all 413 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,279 together. It's not about me. If you were alive today, she would 414 00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:24,640 be astonished, maybe amused at all the popular culture things about her. I 415 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:30,000 think that she would be very thrilled that people are so knowledgeable about forensic investigation 416 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:36,160 and so interested. I talked to kids all over the country, and these 417 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,079 courses are very popular, and it's very good science. You learn the critical 418 00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:44,119 thinking, you learn all these things that they want to be, they would 419 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,000 like to work in the field. All these things are all very good. 420 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:52,640 But what we don't have is the means to have medical examiners from coast to 421 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,759 coast. And I think that would disappoint her and send her that we have 422 00:32:54,839 --> 00:33:00,319 not made any progress in the past six decades. Yeah, I think when 423 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:05,880 we take a look at the potential versus the actual progress, we do fall 424 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,599 short as a country. And when you hear about just how archaic our system 425 00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:15,759 is currently and I've said this on the podcast before. As much as I 426 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,319 enjoy those procedur rules that show us how it can be done, that's not 427 00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:25,319 actually how it's done. In so many places around the country. That is 428 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,359 true, and it's interesting. There is what they call the CSI effect, 429 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:36,160 and that people have become so much more sophisticated on juries and they know about 430 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,119 DNA evidence, And in a way that's a double edged sword because I think 431 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:45,440 people's expectations are too high. They expect that you're going to find DNA on 432 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:49,440 any scene, that you're going to have the identity of who that DNA belongs 433 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,480 to, the next day, that things are solved, that you'll find fingerprints. 434 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,480 I don't think people have a concept of how difficult it actually is to 435 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:00,680 get a good fingerprint, because the surfaces all kinds of reasons. People don't 436 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,079 pick up a glass very carefully and to leave a nice neat print, and 437 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,920 so their expectations are very high. There is that, but on juris they 438 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,960 if you don't juries have come to expect the science and they want the DNA 439 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,400 and if you don't deliver it, then they wonder maybe there's something going around 440 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,519 there. And that respect is really very good. There is that expectation that 441 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,079 you know, if I'm living in West Virginia in some small town and that 442 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,880 my sibling my parents are found dead, that's going to happen, and it's 443 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,320 not. It won't be anything like that. It's not going to happen there. 444 00:34:35,519 --> 00:34:38,000 Even in a place like Baltimore, a big city, the full bore 445 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:43,480 whole thing with the cameras and all that, it's maybe five to ten percent 446 00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:46,239 of the homicides. They just don't do that. You can't do that in 447 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,679 every case. Before we wrap up, I do want to get you to 448 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,719 talk about your most recent book, Ocme tell us a little bit about that, 449 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,920 and then tell us where we can find all of your books. When 450 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,559 I started at the OSA and I'd known a good bit about it, the 451 00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:07,400 Ocume of Maryland was at one time really celebrated as one of the best in 452 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,400 the United States. It was a legendary as a place for training and research 453 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:19,079 and education and service. It was just really truly extraordinary in terms of how 454 00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:22,159 quickly things were done, how thoroughly things were done. Everything was done by 455 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,400 consensus, so that it wasn't just one person's opinion and over the course of 456 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,639 my I was there for ten years. Over the course of my time there, 457 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,639 I saw this sort of tumble into crisis. A lot of it was 458 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,760 driven by the opioid epidemic. The caseload just went up dramatically, just it 459 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,039 nearly doubled, and a lot of that was driven by the opiate overdose intoxication 460 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:50,679 desk, and the caseload per doctor was just going higher and higher, and 461 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,199 so people were leaving the field, which would make things worse, and it 462 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,920 ended up in a very bad place where we had there was at one point 463 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:04,199 a backlog of autopsies that approached two hundred and forty some people waiting for autopsies 464 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,679 up to two weeks, and it was really horrible. My first book was 465 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:13,400 a biography of a woman. It really does documents this transition from the coigner 466 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:19,199 system to the medical examiner system and ocm ME is there's like bookends and this 467 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,119 is the modern story of what's going on today in forensic medicine. And the 468 00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:29,800 problems that occurred in Maryland are not unique to Maryland. There are shortages, 469 00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:36,280 manpower shortages coast to coast. There are backlogs in autopsies and autopsy reports from 470 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,159 the West coast and down South Ohio, Mississippi, you name it. There 471 00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:45,079 are problems all over and I had this opportunity to document but was basically a 472 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:49,639 biography of an organization, tracing their rise in the fall of this once great 473 00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:52,559 institution and the implications that it has not to spend the people of Maryland, 474 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:57,039 but throughout the country. Both of those books, I think they do go 475 00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:00,760 together. Well, they're available wherever you've books, hopefully pay for them, 476 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,320 but they're also at libraries. You can check them out you want to pay 477 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,039 you with the library route as well, it was in my contract to give 478 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:13,559 it to libraries for free. I actually left money on the table and gave 479 00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:16,760 up money to make sure that it's available at libraries for free. Do you 480 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,400 think the production, particularly of your new book OCME, will help highlight the 481 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:29,800 issues that you wanted to What would it take to fix the challenges facing the 482 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:35,440 Medical Examiner's Office in Maryland. That's a good question, and there isn't really 483 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:40,880 an easy answer. You can't just hire more doctors because the doctors simply don't 484 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:47,119 exist. Every year, Medical School's producer around twenty eight thousand doctors. Of 485 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,920 that twenty eight thousand doctors, only about five hundred and fifty or so choose 486 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:58,800 to do a residency in pathology, and of those people who do a residency 487 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,320 in pathology, more than forty end up doing forensic pathology. They produce every 488 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,239 year throughout the country. We produce thirty seven thirty eight forensic pathologists every year, 489 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,440 which is not enough to replace those who are retiring leaving the field. 490 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,880 The National Association of Medical Examiners National Student Justice they say that right now today 491 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,800 there are about four hundred, five hundred forensic pathologists in the entire country who 492 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,800 are practicing. We need right now on thy twelve hundred French of pathologists right 493 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,760 now. Even if we decided today that we're going to do this and we're 494 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,400 going to train all these people, it would take thirteen years to get them 495 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:45,000 through pre med medical school, training and working. There is no really easy 496 00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:47,840 answer and no way out of this hole. Bruce, this has been an 497 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,239 amazing conversation. The book is eighteen Tiny Deaths, The Untold Story of the 498 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:59,920 Woman who invented modern Forensics. Available wherever books are sold, although we do 499 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:05,239 encourage you to shop local and indie bookstores Whenever possible. Chris, thank you 500 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,559 so much for joining us today. We really appreciated talking to you. Thank 501 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:10,880 you for having me Christ and Bill. It's been a pleasure. I really 502 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,440 enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Gonna do it for this episode of 503 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,239 mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next 504 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:34,760 time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 505 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,079 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 506 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:45,559 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder 507 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:51,000 is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 508 00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:53,880 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 509 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,679 Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 510 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:05,079 at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.