1 00:00:17,039 --> 00:00:21,519 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emilijasnski, culture 2 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,399 editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show at 3 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:28,679 radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,159 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well. Today I'm excited 5 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,640 to be joined by Chris Boulivan. He's the director of the Social Capital Campaign 6 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,880 and they are out with a really interesting new report. It is called a 7 00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:49,719 Civil Society Celebrating Diversity of Opinion and it comes to all kinds of different observations 8 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,039 based on that. Chris, welcome back to the show. Great, it's 9 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,479 great, great to be back here. Thank you for having me back. 10 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,679 Oh, of course, we'll talk about social capital any day. That's the 11 00:00:59,759 --> 00:01:03,399 kind of the nerds we are here at Federal's Radio Hour. But Chris, 12 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:07,280 actually, social capital is like this, this fancy social science word for something 13 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,519 super pragmatic that people feel every single day in their lives, from the moment 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,359 they wake up to the moment they go to bed, and tell us, 15 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,959 you know, obviously, Social Capital Campaign does all kinds of work on social 16 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,879 capital, but tell us specifically with this report, what you're trying to do. 17 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,480 I understand it's one of several reports that you're rolling out right now. 18 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:37,200 Yeah, that's right. So social capital is the rich network of relationships that 19 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:42,640 we experience in our lives. So those are involved in our childhood, so 20 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:47,719 parents and family and extended family in the village that raises us or supports our 21 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,719 parents, and then those professional and personal relationships that we have across the life 22 00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:00,280 course. And we are doing five reports, which is based on Senator Mike 23 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:07,000 Lee's Social Capital project at the Joint Economic Committee, where that they devised this 24 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:14,159 framework which they were kind enough to let us borrow by looking at family stability, 25 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,560 which we published with Brad Wilcox, family affordability which we did with Abbia 26 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,879 McCloskey. We did a series of essays around work and social capital, and 27 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,560 with this one that we've just done, I wrote myself on civil society and 28 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,000 that's meant to be looking at everything that isn't family and it isn't work, 29 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,319 Everything that we do in our lives isn't the state. And our next report 30 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,879 that will be coming out with will be on youth investment and how to make 31 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,800 sure that we are investing as much social capital into young people as possible. 32 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,439 And this isn't just you know, diagnosing the problem. You also have a 33 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:58,039 lot of solutions, some really really interesting ones that I'm excited to talk about 34 00:02:58,039 --> 00:03:00,159 in the report. But if you could tell us a little bit we were 35 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:06,919 talking before the taping started here about one of the things I found most interesting, 36 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:09,199 and it's this is in the subheading of one of the reports on civil 37 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:14,919 society. The society is a strong social capital can celebrate not only a diversity 38 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,919 of backgrounds, but a diversity of opinions too. That is so important for 39 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,759 people to understand that, as John Adam said, our constitution is one that 40 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:30,080 was for a moral, religious people, meaning we can tolerate diversity of opinions 41 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:34,719 on a widespread scale if we adhere to the spirit of the First Amendment, 42 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,759 if we all have a consensus position on the First Amendment, and if we 43 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,800 trust each other, and if we're generally aimed towards some good. Can you 44 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,479 tell us, Chris a little bit about that argument. Yeah, of course. 45 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:51,520 Well, I think we're all aware of penalization that we live in and 46 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:57,639 the hostility Americans have just as a daily conversation it seems, or depending on 47 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,120 what features a supermarket you go to to get your groceries out, there's a 48 00:04:02,199 --> 00:04:08,879 there's a wholeso alignment different sorts of identities that seemed to be seemingly a kind 49 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:15,560 of hostile to one another, and that polarization is something that's resulted from a 50 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:21,399 decline in society wide trust. There's three hundred and thirty million of us also 51 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,600 living on this continent and the spread of the United States, and there's no 52 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,680 way that we're going to all be able to get to meet each other. 53 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,240 So we are, I guess, as Brian Anson as it calls it, 54 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,959 the imagine community of three hundred and thirty million people, and it's a phenomenal 55 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,519 project. You know, any advanced democracy, but one of this size, 56 00:04:40,519 --> 00:04:44,319 it's a phenomenal project to try and have that many people living together in a 57 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:51,680 society. And one was sort of you know, diverse backgrounds, but yeah, 58 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:58,839 as you say, diverse opinion, there's also like societies with strong stocks 59 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,759 social capital trust with one another. With these imagine people that we're never going 60 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:08,040 to meet, allows a diversity of opinion is a decline in society why trust 61 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,920 That means that actually those groups aren't allowed to those groups find it easier harder 62 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,279 to coexist, right, right, And you know you can actually trace the 63 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,079 dissolution of civil society and the decline of social capital in the United States to 64 00:05:21,199 --> 00:05:28,199 some of where the polarization starts to become more acute. I want to ask 65 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,000 it so about this or maybe do you have where thoughts on that? Chris 66 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,759 Well, yeah, I mean our basic sort of like basic thesis as the 67 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:44,879 campaign is that it is it is social capital that creates trust. So the 68 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,040 rich networking relationships that you have in your family, and then the rich network 69 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:53,519 of relationships that you have in your wider community. The byproduct of those is 70 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,839 the society why trust? As people are able to be confident and secure and 71 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,680 feel empowered and their own communities, they just have a greater level of confidence 72 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,959 and trust in others. So you have this sort of, right, this 73 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:11,639 mysterious byproduct of society, why trust, that is created by social capital. 74 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:17,959 It's been the decline in families, neighbling this attendance at church and what patna 75 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:25,199 and causing in the decline of societies and clubs that has led to an overall 76 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,439 decline in that mysterious byproduct of society. Why trust? And then so all 77 00:06:30,879 --> 00:06:33,120 if you see a society or why, trust is the jello that holds that 78 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:38,240 just the sheer variety of groups that can exist in the United States together. 79 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,959 It's the corrosion of that jello that sort of exposes these different groups. And 80 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:50,399 then different groups and look for other sources of trust to attach to, and 81 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,800 usually that's the could be partisans ship or you know, any number of things. 82 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,759 Go ahead, go ahead, Well yeah, so I mean to prattle, 83 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,600 I mean, as we as we think about the evolution of societies, 84 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:09,519 you know, and if they start with clans and tribes, and then clans 85 00:07:09,519 --> 00:07:13,079 and tribes sort of either you know, war or compete with each other or 86 00:07:13,079 --> 00:07:16,519 they trade with each other, and then they grow and as those at some 87 00:07:16,639 --> 00:07:19,759 point there's there's an element in which they're not going to be able to see 88 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:26,800 everybody in their clan. You move beyond cousin marriage, and then you you 89 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,839 you start trading and so you set up contracts and things like that and imagining 90 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:33,360 people that you're not going to meet. And then usually at some point those 91 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:39,480 societies advanced to needing something beyond brute force and sort of burning people at the 92 00:07:39,519 --> 00:07:43,920 stake to be able to sort of coerce people together, and that's usually one 93 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,279 religious belief, you know, one church, one Lord, one faith under 94 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:51,160 one king, or something like that. So that the American experiment, as 95 00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:55,319 with any of these sort of like you know, advanced societies, is amazing 96 00:07:55,439 --> 00:07:59,519 because it's actually able to transcend even then this idea of one coercive belief. 97 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,759 And that's where we have this, you know, concept of a separation of 98 00:08:01,879 --> 00:08:09,040 church and state. And you know, Thomas Jefferson was keen that in establishing 99 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,240 a separation of church and state, it wasn't to create a secular state. 100 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,160 It was to create a diversity of opinion and beliefs. Whether the state wasn't 101 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:24,839 the priesthood adjudicating what you believe. And so I think we're meant to have 102 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,920 a hugely vibrant civil society with lots of different ideas and lots of different phase. 103 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,799 I mean Jefferson himself and there's back in the day, wanted to create 104 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:35,799 a society that you know, Mohammedan's I think they called them back then. 105 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,320 We called them assons now honestly, and Hindus and a variety of it. 106 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:43,440 It wasn't just about Protestants and Catholics. It was even back then about a 107 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:50,399 multicultural belief system, so that the idea basically and that is that there was 108 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,399 meant to be a celebration of diversity of opinion. No, I'm really glad 109 00:08:54,399 --> 00:09:00,679 we kept pushing on that question because it obviously, I think when people look 110 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:05,639 back on the dawn of the social media age, just thinking about how it 111 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,679 was pitched to us during for instance, the Arab Spring or the first Obama 112 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:15,519 campaign, actually the second Obama campaign as well. This was something that was 113 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:22,360 going to shrink the globe in almost at just an entirely positive ways. That's 114 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:26,279 how Silicon Valley was thinking of it, That's how lawmakers here in Washington, 115 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,080 DC we're thinking of it. But Chris, obviously we all know now that's 116 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:37,120 not how it worked out. How has social media exacerbated or poured some salt 117 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:45,120 on the wounds of social civil society that we're already starting to we're already starting 118 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,480 to hurt us. Yeah. Well, I think this, I mean, 119 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:54,759 this is a huge point of discussion because I think it's important to recognize as 120 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:01,799 an array spectrum of social media or anything digital, and then there's an array 121 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:09,480 of what it does to civil society obviously one of it. With the social 122 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:18,240 media that like Twitter or Facebook, the group's people together, and really what 123 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:22,399 we have seen there actually isn't so much. We have seen the elector introduced 124 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:26,000 to each other in ways that we would never have known before. So actually 125 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:33,200 people are a lot less imagined and we can suddenly see just how odd a 126 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,879 lot of other people's opinions are, how offensive they are to each other, 127 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:46,639 to ourselves. So normally, brief social media, we have highly choreographed presentation 128 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:52,960 on television and then prior to that radio but highly choreographed monolithic presentations of candidates 129 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,240 and sort of like political positions and with a very strong party discipline. But 130 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,799 what we've seen with social media, I guess and is a much greater atomization 131 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,279 even at the candidate, but also an electra there's been introduced to each other, 132 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,039 so you can get quite graphic portrayals of what people believe. You know, 133 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:18,039 so normally you might see someone's bumper sticker on that car or just you 134 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,320 know, one of those little things stuck in the lawn at the yard at 135 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,320 the front of the house to get some inclination of what your neighbor's political opinions 136 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,600 are. But actually, I think what social media has done at this has 137 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:30,120 lifted a veil and we see not only what's on the bumper sticker or the 138 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,399 front of the lawn, but we see kind of like the deepest thoughts as 139 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:35,679 they go back into the house. It's not just an election time that we 140 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:41,000 see an opinion registered. It is now all the time, and it's such 141 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:45,159 an intimate portray that's actually I think a little bit overwhelming. So I think 142 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,399 in that sense, social media, as Elon must says, it has a 143 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,320 potential to be a public square, but at the minute, it's just I 144 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:58,000 think an overwhelming amount of complexity of issues. And then obviously I think it 145 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:01,399 breaks down constituency boundaries, right, it does, doesn't it. So suddenly 146 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:05,679 there's groups of people that may have existed in pockets and sort of like connurbations 147 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,919 here and they're suddenly we're having like these huge mass blocks that with you know, 148 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,039 that now understand each other or know that they are there. So I 149 00:12:15,039 --> 00:12:20,480 think in that sense, social media has a potential to play in social capital 150 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:26,320 creation and as much as it allows for political participation. But I think it's 151 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,200 it's it's it's a technology very much in its infancy, right, So I 152 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,759 think regulation hasn't caught up. I don't think even like you know, society 153 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:37,919 hasn't caught up with quite how to figure out what to do with it yet. 154 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:43,159 But I think I think it has introducing us to so much opinion. 155 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:52,200 I think, what and it comes with a collapse when society I trust And 156 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,759 we go and talk about how that's come about. But I think it just 157 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:01,639 means that people are now with a combination of a decline society trust and having 158 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,080 so much opinion in your face, I think people are more likely to retreat 159 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,600 into other sources of trust, grouping together against the other clans that they no 160 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:16,240 longer trust. And that's sort of some of the issue of what we're experiencing. 161 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,320 But it's but there are there are rays of hope that we'll get onto 162 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,759 talking about I know absolutely, And that's a really important point. I think 163 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,960 one thing with social media, when I hear from people how social media works 164 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,000 really well for them, um, you know that the good spots, that 165 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,919 the bright spots that exist in their use of social media, it's almost always 166 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,600 on the local level. It's about connecting with people in their town, finding 167 00:13:37,639 --> 00:13:43,639 lost pets in the neighborhood and being able to ping everybody right away very quickly 168 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,519 and say hey, be on the lookout for my cat um. And and 169 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,399 that gets to this point that the report makes, which I think again it's 170 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:56,240 sort of counterintuitive to a lot of people, but but very important that the 171 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,799 sort of the tribe, the clan are the building box of social capital. 172 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:03,600 And I wanted to seecrets if you could talk a little bit more about that 173 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,480 through the lens of um. What a lot of people talk about is localism 174 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:13,360 that you you know, it's it's hard for us to be in a debate 175 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:20,720 about abortion with somebody who is in Brooklyn and somebody who is in Croatia, 176 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,200 or somebody who's in Africa, or somebody who's in Texas for that matter, 177 00:14:24,759 --> 00:14:28,480 who you've never met. You've never had to sit face to face. Two 178 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:31,559 you don't know their family, you don't have any contacts about them or their 179 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:35,480 lives. But with the tribes and the clan, that's obviously the tribes and 180 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:39,200 the clans, that's obviously not the case, right. And then the huge 181 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,120 differences even just between say New Hampshire or New Mexico. I mean, does 182 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,039 you know almost take different experiences. I think, well, what it would 183 00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:54,320 be. I think it's helpful just to recognize that at a national level, 184 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,120 trust is really low. So trust in the Supreme Court, those people who 185 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:01,080 have any high levels trust in the Supreme Court. As I collapsed down to 186 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:07,159 twenty five percent of Americans the presidency twenty three, Congress SAT plummets to seven 187 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,639 percent of Americans think they've got any like a highly regard of trust in Congress, 188 00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:20,519 and the media is at thirty four percent amongst Republicans seventeen and Independence twenty 189 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,919 seven. Oddly enough, Democrats have seventy percent of Democrats have high levels of 190 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:30,639 trust in the media. So we have we have these like low rates of 191 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:35,759 trust and anything big so big business. There's only fourteen percent of Americans trust 192 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:41,120 big big business, big tech it's twenty six percent. Even scientists and experts 193 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,879 are like plummeted from thirty nine percent being trusted of Americans having high levels of 194 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:50,080 trust in the pre pandemic to now twenty nine percent. But it shifts also 195 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:58,480 across into the nonprofit sector where big churches and religious groups of denominations are seeing 196 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:06,080 like the biggest drops in attendance, but also nonprofits are a low two fifty 197 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,000 six percent trust. And then philanthropy is in like corporate philanthropy, private foundation's, 198 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:15,840 home network individuals, that's all down at thirty four percent. So these 199 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:21,279 things that are big and national trust is really low. But as you're saying, 200 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:25,240 when you look at the local level, it's a completely different picture our 201 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:29,399 world, and data say that amongst neighbors as eighty four point one percent of 202 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:34,759 us have trust in our neighbors. That's a completely different to the society wide 203 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:45,480 thing in state governments. It's not the low rating we're seeing for federal government's 204 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:49,840 hitting fifty seven percent, or local government, whichagus city hall, sixty six 205 00:16:49,879 --> 00:16:56,759 percent of Americans trust their local government. And similarly, whilst the half of 206 00:16:56,799 --> 00:17:03,160 Americans think that media at the national level out to mislead, which is quite 207 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:08,519 scary, that drops down to just a quarter of Americans feel that about their 208 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:12,119 local media. So yeah, there is there is a lot of trust at 209 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:18,359 the local level, county and state level, which I think is really encouraging. 210 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,720 I don't know if that's because people can see each other. I don't 211 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,119 know if it's because you can drive past city hall in a way, perhaps 212 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,839 you can't drive past the Capitol building unless you're living in DC. Um, 213 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:33,759 but there is there is a level of trust there at a local level. 214 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:37,480 See that is that is a source for hope. And I think actually where 215 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:44,559 we come about with some of our solutions. Um, right, well, 216 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,079 let's let's move on to the solutions, and maybe it's a great segue to 217 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,960 just talk about some of the ones on the local level that you think are 218 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,200 could be most effective. Yeah, well, I think was. I think 219 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:03,799 the reason that there is need for looking at the local and state type solutions 220 00:18:04,039 --> 00:18:12,200 is because we've seen this like pretty intense phenomenon since the seventies of centralization. 221 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,039 So I'll just do a little bit on centralization to explain why the local things 222 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:22,079 than the lead to Paul. But in the nights from the nineteen seventies onwards, 223 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,599 we have seen obviously this vast growth in wealth inequality where the you know, 224 00:18:29,079 --> 00:18:33,519 the richest are occurring more of the games seen in the US economy, 225 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:41,559 so that the American I think American Compass have said how the US experience of 226 00:18:41,599 --> 00:18:47,599 inequality is closer to that of Latin America than it is to say, Canada 227 00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:49,880 or Europe. So we've got this like you know, top one percent or 228 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:56,039 the top point one percent who own a disproportionate amount of wealth, with the 229 00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:00,279 issue being that that accrual of their wealth hasn't come with like a sort of 230 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:07,000 even spread of the marmalade across the toast. It is the middle classes have 231 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:12,279 not been able to keep up was prior to that wealth the growth of wealth 232 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:17,640 had been pretty it had been pretty even across all classes. So we've seen 233 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,640 this huge increase in wealth of quality. At the same time, we've seen 234 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:26,279 a massive growth in the federal government where I'd have to rummage around for it. 235 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:32,640 Now you know, the huge amount of spend on an individual has grown. 236 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,799 This has created this vacuum at the very centralization where there is a massing 237 00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:44,799 of interest in what is happening in DC and federal policy. You've then got 238 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:52,720 this huge growth of new mega wealthy donors and they are pumping money via foundations 239 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,279 or political funding into things that just preoccupied with DC. So we're up until 240 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,000 nineteen six nine, Partnerment talks about like the rates of civil group participation in 241 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:08,160 the United States was like world beating, what was like world highs. America 242 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,599 was like one of the in the top. There there was a massive decline 243 00:20:12,599 --> 00:20:18,079 in this huge growth towards centralization. The only as nonprofits were in decline, 244 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,559 like from the seventies onwards, the only area of growth was national associations that 245 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,319 were based in DC. So there's like a ditching of member organizations and instead 246 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:32,880 it's just like rapid focus on like policy change. And this has created this 247 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,319 like arms race on the left and the right of people just pumping more and 248 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,039 more money into of politics and philanthropy focused on the center. So there is 249 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:48,440 twenty twenty was like the most expensive election on record in American history, and 250 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:52,400 yet it wasn't like you know, platoons of little people handing up, you 251 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,960 know, sticking twenty dollars into boxes and with a badge going door to door. 252 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,720 It was mega wealthy people who were giving. I think the report sites 253 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,640 research suggests somewhere in the region of two thousand, three hundred high net worth 254 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:11,680 couples basically bankroll that election. And we see that to you in philanthropy, 255 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:17,039 we are hitting record levels of charitable giving in America, which is exciting until 256 00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:18,799 you look at it and actually realize that, Josh, we're moving from the 257 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:26,599 regular folk such as perhaps yourself, myself that is on the decline, and 258 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,599 it's the megawealthy who are like giving the cash. So I think on the 259 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,160 left and on the right, you're seeing this arms race of supercharged financing that 260 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:44,799 it's just going into the center. And the reason that is problematic is and 261 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,920 causes society why trust collapse is because it means that that's money and attention and 262 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:57,799 energy that isn't going into state level civic machinery, that those groups and associations 263 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:06,480 and outreaches and even political party apparatus that allows individuals in their communities to connect 264 00:22:06,519 --> 00:22:11,839 to the democratic process at a sort of local state level, influencing the center 265 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,759 that they are literally bypassed. And even those foundations that are kind of like 266 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:22,759 pumping money to influence state apparatus are really only doing it with a view to 267 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:27,319 achieve in federal policy change. So all of that is just gutting the capacity 268 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:34,079 of social capital at a local level. And as why really someone somewhere should 269 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:40,319 really start backing off of like giving so much money to this focus on the 270 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,079 center, because I mean, the billions that go into political and philanthropic funding 271 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,200 really should be focused instead at this community level. If we want to rebuild 272 00:22:49,319 --> 00:22:53,759 society. Why trust that can allow for a glorious celebration of diversity of opinion 273 00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:59,240 as well as backgrounds. Then we have to start building on this basis of 274 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,759 eighty one and trust in neighbors before that goes because I think one of those 275 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,160 things that we found in our Family Affordability Report, which I thought was quite 276 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,240 disturbing that Abby McCloskey did, was that we saw that church attendance among Hispanics 277 00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:18,400 is on a massive decline. And so that doesn't moode well because those networks 278 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,440 that people find themselves in a family and faith groups and that sort of thing, 279 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:27,680 that level of social capital is what keeps low income people from a complete 280 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,440 collapse into poverty. If you've got other resources around you, you are much 281 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,480 more likely to be able to achieve the American dream. If those things go, 282 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,880 then you're much more likely to become stuck in a situation that you can't 283 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,039 get out of. And it becomes that kind of expensive to sort of like 284 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:51,720 have federal money sort of pumping into sort of help pay out for those sinkholes 285 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:59,759 and civil society. So we were saying, let's direct money funds energy into 286 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,240 our civil society at a local level, and that's going to take real courage 287 00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:10,440 on behalf of all parties on the left and the right to sort of back 288 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,799 away from the arms race. I don't see it happening, but I think 289 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,119 political funding, I think it's sort of like giving up on right because I 290 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,119 think decades of attempts finance reform political have achieved very little. That maybe we 291 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,960 can do something around philanthropic funding to see if we can do anything there. 292 00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:32,720 And you have some excuse me, you have some really specific ideas for five 293 00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:37,839 or one threes that could become five one three pace, can you? Obviously 294 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:42,680 we came up with some very exciting ideas. So I think so one thing 295 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:48,559 I think we were thinking about that would tackle this kind of centralization and polarization 296 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:55,000 was recognizing the value of some of the smaller nonprofits. That so, there's 297 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,279 one point three million chargeable nonprofits in the United States and I can on ten 298 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:03,200 percent of those are foundations. Of the rest nine to two percent of the 299 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:08,279 rest of these foundations nonprofits working on a budget of less than a million dollars 300 00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:12,960 a year, and even then most of them on a lot smaller, and 301 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:19,799 about a third of those nonprofits that aren't foundations are human services type public benefit 302 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:25,599 organizations. So whilst they're making up about a third of those active nonprofits that 303 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:30,759 aren't foundations, they only get nineteen percent of charitable donations in the country or 304 00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:34,240 as higher education, which is though five percent of nonprofits gets like a huge 305 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,079 chunk of eleven percent in twenty twenty two of chargeable donations from what I could 306 00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:42,680 figure out, So and that seems like a mismatch. There was less how 307 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,839 do we get money to these like poverty fighting groups that are actually doing something 308 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,559 in the local community, that are enmeshed in their community, that are drawing 309 00:25:51,599 --> 00:25:56,039 from rich networkers of relationships. And we thought, well, why not create 310 00:25:56,039 --> 00:26:00,319 a five O, one C, three P a new IRS category that specifically 311 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:08,599 identifies those registered non profits that are actively working to tackle poverty in the local 312 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,039 community, so that whether that's food banks, night shelters, homeless shelters, 313 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:23,559 shelters for vulnerable women, and or disaster relief efforts. That way it would 314 00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:27,599 be easier for donors who want to give to that sort of group to be 315 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,680 able to do so. And then also I think one way we thought that 316 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:38,960 could perhaps entice the billionaire donor to sort of perhaps inch away from just being 317 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,400 rapidly focused on the Capitol building would be to think, well, could we 318 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,759 just do an incremental increase on the tax break for a five O one C 319 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:56,319 three P and create some sort of state poverty and Relief community chest. So 320 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:03,640 I think whereby any don't know whether an individual or a mega foundation can give 321 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,079 to this spark, this say poverty or of community chest, which has basically 322 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,200 just got a list of all the five one three five one C three ps 323 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:17,559 that are they're registered in their state alone people you know dial in or that's 324 00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:19,599 just part of their tax return or whatever, and it's just the money that 325 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,519 is given to the spark and then like a tax the state tax rebate, 326 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:29,480 it has just distributed to all of those five or one C three pieces that 327 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,640 are just registered in their state. And I think we'd be just in their 328 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,759 state rather than kind of like national organizations because that way what we want to 329 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:41,480 be able to do is irrigate um though those community groups and also see new 330 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:48,480 community groups that come about. But for those large foundations that are like desperate 331 00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:52,319 to find ways of chucking five percent that you know, their manatory five percent 332 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:59,079 out the door every year, this spark is like a really helpful opportunity for 333 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,440 them because they don't need to have any grant program managers or any forms or 334 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,839 anything. They could just literally give their five percent to the spark and then 335 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:15,240 it's very low, very low intensity too on the government because they're literally a 336 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:19,680 category. So it doesn't need a huge staff either. It's just it's probably 337 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:25,799 the existing staff who're doing tax rebaids and they can just then send these direct 338 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,839 funds to these nonprofit groups. And we think that could be an exciting way 339 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,680 to take take some of the heat out of this like centralized relation arms race. 340 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:38,559 Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, so if you work in the 341 00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:44,799 nonprofit space, you're extremely aware of this problem. But I suppose if people 342 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:51,599 most people haven't seen a lot of this up close. And so Chris, 343 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,799 if you could talk a little bit about like has this changed? Is this 344 00:28:55,039 --> 00:29:00,799 new? Like did the arms race start because of a certain policy? Where 345 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,640 where did things start to sort of spiral out of control? Yeah, well, 346 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,960 it's definitely this is definitely like a cause and consequence, and this is 347 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,400 why it has to be reversed because it's a beast that sort of like feeds 348 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,599 itself as a vicious cycle of the more you focus on the federal government and 349 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,160 the world, and the more wealth in equality you have that the more that 350 00:29:19,279 --> 00:29:23,559 this sort of supercharges, the more then you are seeing the collapse of civil 351 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,079 society, and the more I mean, what we didn't want to see is 352 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,839 these local levels of trust declining, you know, through crime and through family 353 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:37,079 breakdown, you know, through the complete disruption of the public school system. 354 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,200 Because once those things we begin to break down, then you have got it's 355 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,079 going to be a lot harder to clause this stuff back. In terms of 356 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:49,759 the origin of this and the solution, well, I think I think as 357 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:53,160 soon as people started to sort of as soon as I was then this decline, 358 00:29:53,920 --> 00:30:00,960 the growth of federal government from the nineteen seventies in particular onwards, coupled 359 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,480 with the wealth and equality, I think that's where we started to see the 360 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,799 problem. In terms of the thing that also that we started to see is 361 00:30:08,119 --> 00:30:11,880 a change in philanthropy, a sort of mckinsification, if you will, of 362 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:18,119 the philanthropic sector, this sort of technocratic thing. I think as as people 363 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:22,960 started looking at federal government and that sort of thing, I think a similar 364 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:26,200 technocratic approach was then sort of applied to grant making, and I think that 365 00:30:29,319 --> 00:30:30,920 I did have one quate that didn't quite make it into the paper somehow got 366 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,200 cut out, but there was you know, someone's commented on how Rockefeller would 367 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:40,559 not recognize philanthropy as it has done today. That there is that the grant 368 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:47,039 maker and then the recipient are almost in a higher contractor relationship now where the 369 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:52,519 foundation is seeking to create policy policy goals and to achieve some policy goals, 370 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:59,240 and so he sets out very stringent grand criteria for a nonprofit to sort of 371 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:07,480 meet those that ends up potentially being elite values being forced onto communities rather than 372 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,759 it should really be the other way around, because society has become ungovernable. 373 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:15,440 If you don't have society, why trust. So that's why we got this 374 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,640 this focus on small local nonprofits. And when I was in the UK, 375 00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:26,000 I worked for a nonprofit think tank called the Center for Social Justice and We 376 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,839 which was a conservative thing tank despite the name, and we had a network 377 00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:33,839 of about three hundred and eighty at the time. I think it's more now 378 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,720 small poverty fighting nonprofits now their story, like any here, is just very 379 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,319 similar. I'm trying to be quick on this, but Basically, someone some 380 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:47,880 some half caring individual in the community sees a problem a couple of homeless people 381 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,720 more than they realize it that were there before, or you know, migrants 382 00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:56,240 are like washed up on the beach, and they think, well, hang 383 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,359 on this as a problem. More they see um, you know, increase 384 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,759 in the rise of drug addiction, and so they just start working in the 385 00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:07,680 communities. There's one I always bang on about in Carlisle, this woman who 386 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:10,559 she's around the Sunday School and she noticed that the children that started turning up 387 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:15,000 to the Sunday school were kind of like increasingly rough and then to stopped coming, 388 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:17,599 and she just busy bodied her way into the neighborhood, just like knocking 389 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,759 on the doors, and then she sort of roped in some friends or some 390 00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:25,119 neighbors or other people from the church to kind of like be involved in helping 391 00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:31,160 provide parenting classes, after school homework clubs, just to be able to provide 392 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,680 a positive influence on families that were disintegrating. She then found she had a 393 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,960 nonprofit on her hands. And it's those sorts of nonprofits all across the United 394 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,400 States too. There would be some individual who sees a problem starts to deal 395 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,720 with it. We're ropes and some volunteers finds it good. A nonprofit on 396 00:32:49,759 --> 00:32:53,400 their hands starts building a network of small businesses and churches and just sort of 397 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,680 like local people who see that's already want to get behind that. Oh I 398 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,799 know, someone say, who's work there? That's already good work. So 399 00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:05,480 this thing some money into it. And these nonprofits are high in local networks 400 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,480 and high in trust, and they are high in efficacy too. They're highly 401 00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:15,119 relational that they're not they're not focused on campaigning. They're not pumping billions into 402 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,759 sort of trying to persuade a senator to sort of put in the bill. 403 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,720 They are helping to literally change lies. And they will be completely perplexing to 404 00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:25,960 the foundation that is looking to like discharge a million dollars and some innovative new 405 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,640 program because it is made and the plane super boring work that is absolutely transformative 406 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,559 to the own individuals who who are concerned. How does having a cup of 407 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:40,119 coffee and some converted strip mall that has been turned into some sort of like 408 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,680 you know, family hub plays change someone's life. It's impossible to put into 409 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,640 a spreadsheet. And these groups, if they're running, are like you know, 410 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,680 one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. They're just they're just too 411 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,119 small for these like grant the big grant making organizations to bother with. If 412 00:33:57,119 --> 00:34:01,119 they're if they're seeking to get someone drugs completely and they're not just harm reduction, 413 00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:05,359 they're just in can know you're you're valuable enough to come completely off drugs, 414 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,039 let's help you with some with that, and let's let's build the things 415 00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:10,960 around your life that you need to be able to stay completely clear of drugs. 416 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:15,800 That might be too controversial for some sophisticated, you know, elite adjacent 417 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,880 type nonprofit foundation. So that's why we're thinking if they could just have a 418 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,679 five category, it takes all the controversy out of that. It's just that's 419 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,320 that's what they're doing. And so the foundation, you know, you can 420 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,400 just give to the spark and it's just distributed to the five one three B. 421 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,199 And that way is affirming local solutions derived by local people that are drawing 422 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:46,360 from local situations, and that sort of thing builds social capital and neighborhood tense 423 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:51,599 situations around. It means that the federal government isn't necessarily there to bail everything 424 00:34:51,599 --> 00:34:53,679 out and on that too. I mean, the federal government is going to 425 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,800 change over night. It's like a massive thing. So we've suggested an independent 426 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:07,519 mission that Congress would lead to help explore further voucherization of federal programs. So 427 00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:13,719 there's this huge push for a very successful push for having vouchers related to public 428 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,639 school funding. So you have individualized, personalized budgets that follow the student and 429 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,320 the and the student can go to a private school, they can be homeschooled. 430 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,280 It could be a religious school, or it could be the public school, 431 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,119 but basically or it could be extracurricular activities and that the funding follows them. 432 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,840 So we're thinking, well, there is some already in sexual persection housing, 433 00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:37,440 but can we expand that And the point there being we would want to 434 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:44,519 see an increase in the diversity of suppliers of delivery of federal health, health, 435 00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:49,480 and human service as welfare programs, including faith based groups. In the 436 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:53,119 hope too that that would also generate a diversity of sort of solutions that are 437 00:35:53,639 --> 00:36:02,320 local and that that are perhaps new. We think that the diversifying that is 438 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:10,119 a way to not takes everyone like could turkey off of the federal government. 439 00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:15,840 But it is a harm reduction approach, you know, it's it's reducing the 440 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,599 need for federal government to bail up everything, because I think we do have 441 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,360 to have satial capital rebuilt, and starting here at the local level would seem 442 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,559 to be a good way to do it. No, I think, I 443 00:36:28,599 --> 00:36:32,239 mean it's it's really smart, and again something that just people It's not on 444 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,000 a policy radar of anyone seeming. I mean, you just don't hear it 445 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:43,119 talked about. One thing that's interesting is trying to define political first C three's 446 00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:47,079 right now is really difficult because I would argue there are a lot of people 447 00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:53,199 who are doing political work with their C three designations out of compliance with the 448 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,800 IRS. But obviously, to your point, there's a massive, sprawling country, 449 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,280 so it's just incredibly difficult to to track all, you know, every 450 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:07,199 little tweetum and project that every nonprofit does. But on that note, um, 451 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,840 you know, would you foresee any issues with narrowing the category down, 452 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,440 and just because we have such low trust and such low social capital even coming 453 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,039 to a definition of what constitutes political or not, I could see that just 454 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,239 sort of being weaponized as we try to narrow it down. But I don't 455 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:30,880 know. Yeah, I mean, so the P is for poverty, so 456 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,719 yeah, yeah, poverties. But yeah, I think it would be it 457 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,280 would be quite difficult to take the politics out of it. Now. Well, 458 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,159 I mean, political participation is considered to be a social capital creating activity, 459 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:49,400 which is great. Um, whether m storming state capitals or you know, 460 00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:53,119 the US Capitol is political participation social capital building paps not so much. 461 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:59,960 And whether having billionaires pumping lads of money as social counter building, maybe not 462 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,519 so much. I mean, the twenty twenty election did see an increase in 463 00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:08,360 small donor participation, but I would argue that that that's a symptom of polarization 464 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:15,159 rather than a reclamation of sort of like you know, political participation. It's 465 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,559 it's it's tribalism. Um, So I think, yeah, I think in 466 00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:23,760 terms of like five er three P and designating poverty, I think the idea 467 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:29,280 is to try and take some of the political politics out of it. Out 468 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,440 of you know, so it's an attempt to have people's two are literally doing 469 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,039 poverty relief, literally helping homeless people get into work, get into housing, 470 00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:44,719 that that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean obviously anyone could say, 471 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:50,239 well, actually, if we gave five billion to Harvard's Center on Poverty 472 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,480 Relief, that that's really important too. And so yeah, I'm sure that 473 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,760 the five one three P think could be expanded or you know, manipulated, 474 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,280 and similarly that donors could gain it, so it kind of works out for 475 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,760 them. Um, you know, I think there's always a dynamic response within 476 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,840 the market whenever you do this sort of thing. But I think the spirit 477 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,000 of it is an attempt to perhaps try and identify and encourage the flow of 478 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:21,400 cash to local groups who are who are doing, you know, stuff to 479 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:27,360 assist with poverty and and I mean, would that's seeing them a huge proliferation 480 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,000 of sort of like quasi socialist groups, you know, people setting up from 481 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,119 their living rooms, their front rooms, you know, a five or one 482 00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:37,639 C, three B. But perhaps not really possibly, but I'm not sure, 483 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:43,760 you know, as assist building local networks and building social trust, I 484 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,480 don't I don't imagine that's going to be any more corrosive than the centralization that 485 00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:52,119 is already happening. The corrosive nature of society. Why trust collapsing as a 486 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:55,679 result of too much centralization of power and money to the to the elite, 487 00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:01,159 and powerful. Right. Yeah, No, I think that's well worth undertaking 488 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,559 very much. I think you're saying this isn't much discussed because I didn't think 489 00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:07,159 it is either, And that's why the Federalist radio or is they good because 490 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:12,039 you bring on these interesting ideas. No, No, it's yeah. I 491 00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:14,920 was actually just thinking about this the other day. When you look at the 492 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,519 large s and in some cases the pomp and circumstance that you know, a 493 00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:24,079 lot of C threes are run like as you know, like giant corporations, 494 00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:27,880 and that does enable them to do a lot of really good work, but 495 00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:31,400 it also builds them into political machines. And so yeah, like the what 496 00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:37,440 was it the Center for Tech and whatever that Zuckerberg did with election work and 497 00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:40,480 he just dumped a bunch of money into democratic districts but was able to skate 498 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:45,000 by and not calling it political. You know, sort of sorting the wheat 499 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,960 from the chaff and what is popping and what is politics could be difficult. 500 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,880 But at the same time, like you said, it's hard to imagine anything 501 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,880 being more corrosive than where we are right now, which is you're just a 502 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,840 large scale grift in so many different ways. Yeah, and I think that's 503 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,320 right, and it is I mean in the world that I am in obviously, 504 00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:07,119 you know, in secret funding. I have been a little bit surprised, 505 00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:12,239 and also, you know, a relatively new arrival in the United States. 506 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,800 I have been surprised by how political a lot of the foundations are or 507 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,440 can be, and not saying they all are only stretched, but I think, 508 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:27,320 yeah, it's definitely a semi permeable membrane between the philanthropic and the political 509 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,960 um. And so I think there is I mean, despite the sort of 510 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:38,000 dooming gloom around the decline of civil society and social capital creating you know, 511 00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:47,239 institutions like you know, like family or churches or environmental groups to sort of 512 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,800 like nonprofits or you know, community clear ups whatever, um, there is 513 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,199 still high levels of hope amongst the American people. And I you know, 514 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,119 there are people, you know people it as possible to see the situation turned 515 00:42:01,119 --> 00:42:05,679 around, you know. I think, like people think that trust can be 516 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,920 restored in federal government, in our national institutions, in one another. It's 517 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,320 just not entirely clear how to get there. So, I mean, we've 518 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,800 hope that the modest policy proposals we've put forward would sort of like help in 519 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,159 that regard because I love America. It's a great country, you know, 520 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,639 I mean, it's and it has the potential to be really you know, 521 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,119 to continue to be really awesome. It's why I've moved here. You know. 522 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:36,559 It's there's you know, there's so much opportunity, there's so many people. 523 00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:39,000 Where else can you come to to to experience such a huge diversity of 524 00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:45,679 backgrounds, you know, and such a diversity of beliefs and such glorious institutions 525 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,239 that do exist in each state. And so I think, I think, 526 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,719 yeah, I don't know that we necessarily need to be completely dooming gloom about 527 00:42:53,719 --> 00:43:00,519 it. And people want America to be a country where they can succeed. 528 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:06,119 And for most people that does mean you know, being able to establish a 529 00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:08,119 family, to know, again, an education, to be able to find 530 00:43:08,159 --> 00:43:12,920 work, and to have meaningful involvement in their local community, and then to 531 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,079 be part of you know, a wider country that kind of that's that they're 532 00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:20,280 really proud to be a part of. So I think that's why we are 533 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:25,480 creating this off the shelf policy platform for an incoming president. We're building you 534 00:43:25,559 --> 00:43:32,119 know, these policy reports around family stability, making sure that family isn't something 535 00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:36,880 a marriage isn't something that's just for the elite and the wealthy, but it's 536 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,960 something that everyone can sort of enjoy because there's a huge divide in that at 537 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,199 the moment. We want to make sure that raising a family is something that 538 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,039 is affordable for everybody to be able to do. And a lot of that 539 00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:52,840 around affordability is about needing the village around you, these networks of people and 540 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,760 faith groups and professionals and other services that are there to help you. And 541 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,119 then to make sure that imply ointment and work is something that works in the 542 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:07,119 grain of these personal aspirations people have for building family and community. And then 543 00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:10,639 we want to make sure that civil society is something that grows as a battered 544 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:16,480 and that young people, America's youth have this amazing opportunity to be able to 545 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,840 build social capital for themselves too, which we will be looking at our next 546 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,039 report, and then we're just hoping there's some bright, shiny Republican or Democrat 547 00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:28,920 cand it comes among things, that's a fantastic way to achieve the American dream. 548 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:30,719 Let's run with it. So that's what we're trying to do here at 549 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,800 the Social Capital campaign. Well, Chris, what can people look forward to 550 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,079 from the forthcoming reports? Yeah, I think in our youth investment one, 551 00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:45,079 where're you going to be taking a look at at the early years of childhood 552 00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:49,440 nought to threes? I think I have been, and how to make sure 553 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,920 that it is actually possible to raise children? And then we're going to be 554 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:59,559 producing a grid all of these. We've asked the range of scholars and doc 555 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:05,719 think people and our advisory board who are drawn from across the center right spectrum 556 00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:08,639 to sort of help us create a clear sense of what do we think the 557 00:45:08,679 --> 00:45:14,800 contemporary challenges are and then what are you know, the solutions that the federal 558 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,840 government can do, Which is slightly awkward about, you know, how can 559 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,880 a federal government build social capitalist is very limited in what it can do, 560 00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:24,599 but it can certainly get out of the way, and as with our autunization 561 00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:29,559 program, it can make sure it's diversifying supply. So I think the ideas 562 00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:34,719 we're going to create off the back of these reports a priority of challenges and 563 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:40,559 solutions and present those in a sort of like pretty simple, almost manifesto wish 564 00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:47,400 type approach so that it is easy for a nominees team to be able to 565 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:53,880 think that's something that would that's something that would work. But obviously our main 566 00:45:54,000 --> 00:46:00,519 priority is to influence the national conversation and to make sure that people and are 567 00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:04,199 thinking about how do you build social capital and how do you build society y 568 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,159 trust, and how do you make sure them that we're all able to flourish 569 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:13,440 in a society together. Hm. Well, Chris Boulevant, We really appreciate 570 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,519 your time. We appreciate you breaking down that's excellent report that people can find 571 00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:22,480 at Social capital campaign dot com. Thanks so much, Chris, Yeah, 572 00:46:22,599 --> 00:46:25,599 real pleasure, and thanks so much of listening of course. Oh my gosh, 573 00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:30,280 it's so interesting you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 574 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,920 I'm emilian Ski culturector here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with 575 00:46:35,079 --> 00:46:37,920 more. Until then, the Lovers of freedom and Anxious for the pray