1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,800 My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and 2 00:00:09,839 --> 00:00:14,400 now podcaster. I am now trying to use my experience as the brother of 3 00:00:14,439 --> 00:00:18,280 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,399 book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co administrator of the 5 00:00:22,399 --> 00:00:27,320 Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,160 I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,759 as well as the social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:46,759 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind 9 00:00:46,799 --> 00:00:51,479 Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. We're talking today about 10 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:57,280 two of our Perkway adjacent cases. I know you love that terminology, Bell, 11 00:00:57,679 --> 00:01:00,840 you coin that phrase, so perhaps you can explain to our listeners what 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:08,120 parkway adjacent means. Sure, we've got parkway adjacent cases, which basically means 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:15,400 cases that may possibly be connected to the Colonial Parkway murders. We're not entirely 14 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:21,280 sure they happened in and around the same time period of the murders, and 15 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:26,439 there are victims that do have connections to other colonial parkway murders victims, but 16 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:32,280 we cannot prove one way or the other that they are linked into the four 17 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:37,480 official cases, if you can really actually even use that term official anymore. 18 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,200 So we just tend to call them parkway adjacent, or at least I call 19 00:01:41,239 --> 00:01:44,680 them parkway adjacent, and then Bill liked it and started calling them that too, 20 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:53,439 so they parkway adjacent cases. And these do tie in, I think 21 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,079 potentially to the four double homicides and the colonial parkway murders, and it's an 22 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:06,319 interesting conversation regardless, and these cases certainly deserve more exploration, absolutely, so 23 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,680 we're going to dig into. We have three cases that we consider parkway adjacent. 24 00:02:12,039 --> 00:02:14,919 We're going to dig into two of those today, and that is the 25 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:19,479 murder of Lori M. Powell, the murder of Brian Craig Pettinger. And 26 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,719 there is one other case that we consider parkway adjacent, and that is the 27 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:29,560 double homicide of Julie Williams and Lolly Winan's in the Shenandoah National Park in nineteen 28 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,080 ninety six. But we're not getting into that one today because we're going to 29 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:38,439 let our very good friend Kate Miles get into that for us when her book 30 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:42,879 comes out in a month May third, twenty twenty two. It's coming up 31 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,879 fast, it is, And of course that is more than a month. 32 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,719 I'm on teacher time, which means basically, I don't know what time or 33 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,639 day it is anymore. I'm just counting down the days till spring break. 34 00:02:54,719 --> 00:02:59,479 When is spring break? Spring break is the first week of April. Our 35 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:04,000 sent out a little countdown yesterday, very nicely that said, it's twenty three 36 00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:07,240 school days till spring break. Just in case you had lost count. Yeah, 37 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,520 there was no way I was losing count of that. I still have 38 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:14,280 standardized testing to get through before then. So it's not just young people that 39 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,719 count the days until spring break. No, it's their tired, exhausted, 40 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:24,120 frazzled ready for break teachers that counted as well. Okay, So on a 41 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:28,599 more serious note, where do you want to start with the Lori and Powell 42 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:34,319 and Brian Pettinger cases. I think it's important to establish that the murders of 43 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:39,759 Brian Pettinger and Lorii Ann Powell took place right in the middle of the Colonial 44 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:45,439 Parkway murders series. In fact, if you take a look at the handy 45 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,400 dandy timeline that I compiled that we will again be posting on all of our 46 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,639 social media pages for the murders of Brian Pettinger and Lori Ann Powell took place 47 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,120 before the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, but to the murders of Robin 48 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:06,199 Edwards and David Nobling. The exact dates on those are as follows. Robin 49 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:12,800 Edwards and David Nobling were found on September twenty third, nineteen eighty seven at 50 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,839 the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge. Brian Craig Pettinger, We're going to get more 51 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,639 into him in a couple of minutes, was reported missing on December fourth, 52 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:27,439 nineteen eighty seven. His car was recovered at December sixth, nineteen eighty seven, 53 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,920 and his body was found February first, nineteen eighty eight. Next up 54 00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:35,759 missing was Laurie En Powell. She disappeared in March eighth, nineteen eighty eight. 55 00:04:36,079 --> 00:04:41,439 Her body was found April fifth, nineteen eighty eight, and only five 56 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,360 days later, Richard Keith call and Cassandra Lee Hayley disappeared, never to be 57 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:50,680 seen again. On April tenth, nineteen eighty eight. So we've got a 58 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:57,199 very close timeline here, and Laurie and Brian's murders fall right in the middle 59 00:04:58,079 --> 00:05:02,959 between Edwards, Nobling and Call Haley. The timing is very striking. You've 60 00:05:02,959 --> 00:05:10,079 got all of these homicides happening very close in time, one on top of 61 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:16,240 another. And this group of individuals also all have ties to Liberty Security as 62 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,560 well. Yes they do, and I think that is really going to be 63 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:25,600 the crux around which our conversation is going to circle today. For those of 64 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,000 you that are unfamiliar with Liberty Security and its owner, Ron Little, we 65 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,079 would encourage you to go back and listen to our episode about mister Little and 66 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,480 his connections to this case. Nothing has been proven in our back catalog, 67 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:46,560 and that is episode for Ron Little and Liberty Security. So we have two 68 00:05:46,639 --> 00:05:50,480 episodes on Liberty Security and on Ron Little. Those are episodes seventy three and 69 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,399 seventy four, and those are right after our excellent episodes with Chris Call and 70 00:05:56,519 --> 00:06:00,000 Joyce Call. There is one on Liberty Security and then one on Ron daw 71 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,399 Little is seventy three and seventy four. The Mystery of Liberty Security and the 72 00:06:03,399 --> 00:06:10,439 Colonial Parkway murders ran May twenty fourth, twenty twenty one. May twenty fourth, 73 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,839 twenty twenty one. Of that and the Ron Little episode, Ron Little 74 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:20,279 outs himself as a suspect in the Colonial Parkway murders ran the following week May 75 00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:27,079 thirty first, twenty twenty one. So Brian Craig Pettinger of Newport News was 76 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:32,199 last reported to have been seen alive around nine thirty pm on December fourth, 77 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:38,240 nineteen eighty seven. He was last seen at a dance studio in Hampton. 78 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,120 He was his working as a dance instructor as a part time job at that 79 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:49,519 point. Is that correct? Yes. Brian's pickup truck was found two days 80 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,399 later, on December sixth, nineteen eighty seven, behind the Legates department store. 81 00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:58,519 I don't know how many of our locals remember Legates. They're not around 82 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,800 anymore. And that was found at the Newmarket North shopping Mall, a shopping 83 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,519 mall which is no more. It went out of business. Newmarket North actually 84 00:07:05,519 --> 00:07:10,639 closed down in January of twenty nineteen, so it is not there. And 85 00:07:11,079 --> 00:07:15,040 after his car was found, his body was not found with the car. 86 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:19,600 No one really knew what happened to him fifth. Days after Brian Pettenger disappeared, 87 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:27,040 his body was pulled from Chuckatuck Creek on February first, nineteen eighty eight, 88 00:07:27,199 --> 00:07:30,920 and that is that is the Lower James River area now. The medical 89 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:38,079 examiner ultimately determined that Brian's cause of death was drowning, although interestingly, he 90 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,600 did have a gash on the back of his head that police could not account 91 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:45,680 for. They didn't know where he had gotten it or how he had gotten 92 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,800 it. His wrists and ankles were bound with cord or rope. The reporting 93 00:07:49,879 --> 00:07:54,319 didn't actually get specific on which one it was. It just said cord or 94 00:07:54,399 --> 00:07:59,839 rope. He was wearing only socks and a shirt when he was pulled out 95 00:07:59,839 --> 00:08:05,639 of the creek. We've had numerous discussions with people that knew Brian Pettinger, 96 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:11,800 including his ex wife, and Pettinger seems to have had kind of a checkered 97 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:20,959 and unhappy young marriage. His former wife described their relationship as an unhappy one, 98 00:08:20,319 --> 00:08:28,560 an abusive relationship, and one where there were significant infidelities on Brian's part. 99 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:35,360 One of the working theories regarding Brian Pettinger's untimely demise is that there may 100 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:43,240 have been a jealous spouse or something like that that may have led to Pettinger's 101 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,000 murder. It's very clear that he was brutally murdered and his body was dumped 102 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:54,000 in the river. There are odd rumors that have surrounded Pettinger's murder for years, 103 00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:58,759 but most of them are pretty unsubstantiated. There was talk that he was 104 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:03,639 involved in some sort of drug dealing or being a runner for drug deals. 105 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,320 They've been taught that there was somehow involvement from the mob in Brian Pettinger's murder, 106 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:16,240 but these things appear to be completely unsubstantiated. There's no question that Pettinger's 107 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:22,279 behavior and the things that he was into may have led to this homicide. 108 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:28,600 But there's not a lot to go on here in terms of a firm working 109 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:35,360 theory of what led to Brian Pettinger's murder. And interestingly enough, Brian Pettinger 110 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,879 does have ties to liberty security and that is something we're going to go into 111 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:43,360 in a little bit more detail in just a couple of minutes. The next 112 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,039 person, as part of our Parkway adjacent cases, is the case of Luri 113 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:54,720 and Powell. We do not have any indication that she knew Brian Pettinger, 114 00:09:54,279 --> 00:10:00,600 but they did work in and around Liberty Security around the same time time period. 115 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Let's get into Lorienne Powell a little bit here. We know a little 116 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:07,679 bit more about Lorienne Powell and what happened to her. And interestingly, when 117 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,879 I was reading back over some of the reporting that had been done about Laurie's 118 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:20,000 case, every single news article about Laurie's murder also mentioned Brian Pettenger. So 119 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:24,080 the media really tied the two cases together in terms of mentioning, Oh, 120 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,120 look at these two disappearances, these two murders that have happened, and look 121 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:33,480 at the fact that they happen to have worked for the same mysterious security company. 122 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:39,320 Laurien Powell was eighteen years old and she lived in Wacomaco, which is 123 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:43,720 over in Gloucester. She went missing on March eighth. Some of the reporting 124 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:48,279 said March ninth, but I'm going to go with March eighth here. Laurie 125 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:54,000 Ann disappeared when she was walking down Route six fourteen, which is Chulane Road 126 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:00,080 in Gloucester. She had a fight with her boyfriend, Chris Cutler. She 127 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,279 had climbed out of his car allegedly after they had fought and stormed off into 128 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,519 the darkness. This was about midnight when this happened. She climbed out of 129 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:13,200 his car, she left, and then Color returned for her about forty minutes 130 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,639 later. Maybe he gave her some time to cool off. We're not entirely 131 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,759 sure, but by the time he returned to the side of the road for 132 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:22,279 her forty minutes later, she was gone. And that was the last time 133 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:28,120 that she was seen alive. There was an extensive search for Lorianne, with 134 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:33,759 dogs, helicopters, local community members all searching for her, but of course 135 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,919 nothing ever came of that. Within those first couple of days. There was 136 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,039 some discussion maybe she ran away. She had at one point several years prior, 137 00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:48,720 run away from home and stayed with a friend for a couple of weeks, 138 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,279 but her family insisted that she would not have run away without her clothes 139 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,799 or without the uncashed paycheck from her job at the family video store that her 140 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:03,159 family on Joeann's video, so her family did not think that she had run 141 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:09,240 away. Laurian Powell's body was found also in the James River, and we're 142 00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:13,759 going to call this the Lower James River as well. On April fifth, 143 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:18,759 nineteen eighty eight, and she disappeared on March eight. Her body was found 144 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,200 in the river about six miles from Brian Pettinger's recovery site. We don't know 145 00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:28,000 if there's a meaning to that or if that's coincidence. The James River is 146 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,720 a pretty big river. There may be some significance to it. We are 147 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:35,480 not sure. But because of where her body was discovered, the Portsmouth Police 148 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:41,799 Department ran point on that investigation rather than Gloucester, which is where she disappeared. 149 00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:46,840 Found nude, but she was not bound. Brian Pettinger was. Laurie 150 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:52,000 was not cause of death for Laurie was listed as multiple stab wounds to the 151 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:58,559 back. It was unable to be determined whether or not she was sexually assaulted 152 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:01,440 prior to her murder because she had been in the water for so long, 153 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,799 it couldn't be determined when she died or how long her body had been in 154 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:13,519 the water. Both Lorianne and Brian had worked for Liberty Security. Lorianne acted 155 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:20,000 as a receptionist, is how it was phrased in some of the reporting. 156 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:24,960 Others said assistant secretary, I don't really know which one tends to work best, 157 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:28,840 but She did work for Liberty Security for a bit, as did Brian 158 00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:33,559 Pettinger. He worked as a security guard for them, and there apparently was 159 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:39,639 some overlap with their work times, but we don't have exact dates on when 160 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,399 each worked for Liberty at this point. It's probably worth mentioning that we also 161 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:50,320 have connections with two of the Colonial Parkway murders and Liberty Security in that Bonnie 162 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:56,759 Dodson Edwards, mother of Robin Edwards, had also worked as a receptionist and 163 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:03,679 office manager at Liberty Security. Cassandra Sandy Hayley's sister, Terry Haley, was 164 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,919 a former Newport News police officer and someone that we're in touch with pretty regularly. 165 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:15,279 Terry had dated Steve Blackman, who is a former Gloucester County Deputy sheriff 166 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,559 and also a former member of the Newport News Police Department. She had dated 167 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:26,879 Steve Blackman for a time, and Blackman is associated with Liberty Security in that 168 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:31,000 he was good friends with Ron Little and may have worked moonlighting shifts or just 169 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:37,200 run with Ron Little during the time frame when Ron Little was working at Liberty 170 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:43,399 Security and then ultimately purchasing Liberty Security from John Knight Hawthorne its original owner and 171 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:50,639 changing the name of Liberty Security to Advance Security. There was also some speculation 172 00:14:50,759 --> 00:14:56,240 that Keith call was being headhunted by Ron Little to do some work for Liberty 173 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,960 as well. So we have multiple connections by way of Liberty Advance. I 174 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,679 think we just tend to use Liberty because it's easier. You've got multiple connections 175 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:11,240 here between victims. But here's probably what is for me the most interesting thing. 176 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,000 The reporting says Ron Little was hired to investigate Brian Pettinger's disappearance. I 177 00:15:16,039 --> 00:15:20,279 don't know if he was hired or if he just appointed himself. I'm going 178 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:26,240 to look into my missing employee's disappearance. I think it's more the latter here. 179 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,919 This seems self appointed to me from reading the press at the time. 180 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:37,440 He basically, yeah, hired himself to look into Brian Pettinger's murder. Once 181 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,799 Laurian Powell's body turned up. He also volunteered to look for Lori Anne, 182 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,200 and he said he investigated it alongside the Gloucester County Sheriff's Department, and he 183 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,039 even acted in at least one of the reports that I read. He said 184 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:56,159 that he was acting as family spokesman and again, that feels a little bit 185 00:15:56,159 --> 00:16:02,399 like a self appointed role to me. I've spoken with Lori Anne Powell's parents. 186 00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:06,559 When I first spoke to them about a decade ago, they reported to 187 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,200 me that they felt very strongly at that time that Lori Anne had worked at 188 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:17,639 Liberty Security, had worked with Ron Little, and they felt that her murder 189 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,000 was directly as a result of her employment there. They told me that she 190 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,440 had discovered something that was not right about what was going on at Liberty Security 191 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,840 in terms of their business practices, and they theorized that it had something to 192 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:37,679 do with bookkeeping. Because she was doing this receptionist, office manager and bookkeeper 193 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:44,720 role. They suspected that she had discovered something that had to do with them 194 00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:51,679 cheating on their taxes, possibly cheating their customers in later years, and this 195 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,039 isn't Within the last year or so, we've received new information that Liberty Security 196 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:03,440 may have been cheating on a war workers comp claim workers compensation claim someone was 197 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:10,039 injured on the job and filed a claim, And we have heard unconfirmed reports 198 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:17,119 that one of the reasons why John Knight Hawthorne sold the business to his employee, 199 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,599 Ron Little, and Ron Little then changed the name to Advanced Security may 200 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,559 have been to get out from under some of this financial wrongdoing. We think 201 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,720 that it's even possible, based on the new information that we've received, that 202 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:37,640 the sale of Liberty Security from John Knight Hawthorne to Ron Little and Partners, 203 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,680 there were some people in the background here, which may have included Steve Blackman 204 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:48,839 and others. The intention there was to avoid some sort of financial responsibility, 205 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,440 and this may have been what is referred to as a straw man sale. 206 00:17:52,519 --> 00:17:56,680 In other words, it wasn't really a sale. There was a possibility that 207 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:03,039 mister Hawthorne retained some sort of ownership share in partnership with Ron Little. So 208 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,319 when I spoke to Lorianne Powell's parents, they were pretty firmly convinced that their 209 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,960 daughter's murder was directly as a result of her employment at Liberty Security in more 210 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:18,880 recent years. And I would say this is within the last six months or 211 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,359 a year, when I had an opportunity to circle back with lorien Powell's parents, 212 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:26,960 their thinking had shifted a little bit, and I think this is fine. 213 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:30,599 I'm not criticizing it at all. At this point, they were more 214 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:37,440 thinking that Chris Cutler, who died of an overdose in twenty sixteen was involved 215 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,920 in Lorienne Powell's murder. He was among the last people to see her. 216 00:18:42,519 --> 00:18:48,240 By all accounts, they had a very volatile relationship and abusive relationship that often 217 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:53,400 became physical. Lorienne Powell carried a knife with her at all times and was 218 00:18:53,440 --> 00:19:00,279 considered very feisty and willing to physically confront Chris Cutler, her boyfriend of three 219 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:06,640 years, and that they would sometimes actually get into physical altercations. The night 220 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:11,720 that she disappeared. Our understanding is that they were out partying and drinking and 221 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:15,759 drugs are involved here, and that they had some sort of argument and that 222 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:22,960 she insisted on being let out of the car. She supposedly was left as 223 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,240 Kristin as you mentioned, on this two lane road in Gloucester, and then 224 00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,839 was never seen again. The fact that the reporting mentioned that she carried a 225 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,720 knife, and then the fact that she was stabbed in the back, the 226 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:37,039 first thing that came to my mind was did this poor girl get stabbed with 227 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:41,559 her own knife? Yeah? And I don't think the weapon was ever found, 228 00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:45,559 And of course her body was found in the James River, so very 229 00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:49,599 little evidence was available. As you mentioned before, you're listening to Mind over 230 00:19:49,680 --> 00:20:00,000 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 231 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,039 care it mind over Murder. We've talked about Ron Little a number of times 232 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,839 as related to this case. Every time that I read more about this guy, 233 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,480 or every time that I read the reporting which mentions him, the more 234 00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:15,359 that I just have to take a step back and shake my head and go, 235 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:21,119 Wow, you really inserted yourself here in a way that you didn't need 236 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,359 to, mister Little. In the reporting from the Daily Press on the Laurie 237 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:33,559 and Powell Brian Pettinger cases from April of nineteen eighty eight, Mike Fabe offered 238 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:37,200 some pretty substantial quotes from Ron Little. This one I think was of particular 239 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,920 interest to me. Ron Little went on the record as saying he's convinced there 240 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,960 is a link between Powell's death and the death of Brian C. Pettinger, 241 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,119 whose body was found in the James River. There has to be some direct 242 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,400 association with the security firm. He said. The person would have had to 243 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,680 have known Laurie and Brian, and they would have had to trust them enough 244 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:03,559 to get into a vehicle. Very interesting that he would make these observations and 245 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:10,200 yes, by all accounts from Lorian's parents, this idea that Ron Little was 246 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:17,039 a family spokesperson is beyond absurd. They clearly did not like or trust Ron 247 00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:21,640 Little. We should be referring to mister Little in the past tense. Ron 248 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,759 Little died December twenty fifth, twenty twenty one, just a couple of months 249 00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:30,160 ago. I also found it very interesting that, again from that same Daily 250 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,920 Press article quote Little said he has taken precautions for himself and his family. 251 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:41,319 He also said he's been contacting anyone who has contact with the security company to 252 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,519 put them on guard. It's all very curious, it really is that that 253 00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:51,480 part smacks of paranoia right there. But it's also was there a reason for 254 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:56,279 him to feel like everyone working for him may be in danger? I don't 255 00:21:56,319 --> 00:22:02,400 know the Chris Cutler angle, since his from an overdose in twenty sixteen, 256 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:07,759 seems to have also moved to the four. It's amazing how it's only when 257 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:14,799 people pass on that other friends and family feel more comfortable perhaps in speaking up. 258 00:22:14,839 --> 00:22:18,880 Which is sad in that if any of these people are directly involved in 259 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,160 these unsolved murders, it would be certainly a bit more satisfying if we were 260 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,599 to find this out while suspects were still alive. But I know that on 261 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:32,720 social media, including websites where these cases are discussed, and I participate in 262 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,200 some of the discussion, I had mentioned, as had others, that Chris 263 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:41,200 Cutler was potentially involved in Laurent Powell's murder. I received pretty significant pushback from 264 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:48,079 Chris Cutler's sister, which I understand. It cannot be fun to read on 265 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,039 social media, even closed sites that are invitation only, as some of these 266 00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:59,920 sites discussing these cases are. She pushed back on the idea that I was 267 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,599 discussing, and I had not originated the thought that Chris Cutler was involved in 268 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,000 Lorient Powell's murder. He was certainly questioned at the time and was certainly looked 269 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,480 at on a short list of suspects. She pushed back pretty significantly. While 270 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:22,359 I understand her frustration, she has to look through this murder through the prism 271 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,880 of Lorianne's family who still have no answers some thirty three years later and are 272 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:33,480 still looking for answers, and the idea that Chris Cutler could have been involved, 273 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:37,720 or Ron Little could have been involved in the murder of Lorient Powell cannot 274 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:44,359 come as a shock. We call these cases Parkway adjacent precisely for this reason. 275 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,680 There are links to some of the Parkway murder's victims. But can we 276 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:53,720 prove definitively that Brian and Laurie are a part of the Colonial Parkway Murders series. 277 00:23:55,319 --> 00:24:00,119 We can't, and there are some striking dissimilarities. Laurie and Brian are 278 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,960 not a couple. They are two distinct individuals. If we take as fact 279 00:24:06,079 --> 00:24:11,200 that all of the four double homicides in the Colonial Parkway Murders series are related, 280 00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:15,039 and again, Bill and I do not necessarily think that at this point 281 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:21,279 that does make a significant departure from the double homicide series that we've seen thus 282 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:26,240 far. It is a very interesting question to consider, Bill, because you 283 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,400 have lived with this case a whole lot longer than I have. Do you 284 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,920 remember when the first time was that you heard Pettinger and Powell as names related 285 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,960 to possible Parkway cases. Do you recall that at all? I remember hearing 286 00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:42,960 about the murders around the same time. I don't think I knew a lot 287 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,440 of detail about the murder of Brian Pettinger and Laurient Powell. I certainly remember 288 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,920 hearing that there were other murders around the time of the disappearance of Keith Colin 289 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,319 Cassandra Haley. I think it's not until many years later, when I plugged 290 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:03,200 back into the case, that I really began to see the potential connections. 291 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,960 Andy Fox, longtime reporter for WAVY TV ten news, did a very good 292 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:15,119 story about this approximately a year ago March thirtieth, twenty twenty one. He 293 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,680 put out a story could these two cold cases be part of the Colonial Parkway 294 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:25,039 murders? He was asking the question if Brian Pettinger and Laurian Powell's murders could 295 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:27,720 be related. We'll link to that story in our show notes. But he 296 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,720 raises a number of very interesting connections, some of which we've explored here today. 297 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:40,599 And there's more on the Brian Pettinger case that's worth talking about as well, 298 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:44,000 and we might want to jump into that. Did Andy come to a 299 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:47,799 conclusion one way or the other for himself? We know that Andy has been 300 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,279 reporting on this case since the very beginning. He knows a ton about this 301 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,119 case, maybe more than any other of our media sources. Did Andy come 302 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,680 to wick conclusion for him. He asks a lot of great questions. There's 303 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:07,319 a very striking quote here from Suffolk Police Department Lieutenant Gary Myrik, who says, 304 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:11,359 if it were me, given that period of time, I think sometimes 305 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,920 are not just coincidence. Suffolk Lieutenant Gary Myrick told us recently while sitting in 306 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:21,519 front of an evidence box Mark Pettinger, and he continues, we ask Myrek 307 00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:26,079 wed that that Pettinger and Powell cases could be connected to the Colonial Parkway murders. 308 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:30,119 Based on this timeline quote, anything is possible. That is a tight 309 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,039 timeframe for homicides in a close particular area. So I'm not going to tell 310 00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:40,559 you it's not connected. Following our investigation, Myrick agreed to review the Pettinger 311 00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:44,440 physical evidence for DNA retesting in the lab, and he said that will likely 312 00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:48,880 happen in the next quarter. Myrick told us, and now it's my intention 313 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,839 to reach out to Lieutenant Myrek and see if we can get any sort of 314 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,039 update. Now, keep in mind, we don't have an official role in 315 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,839 the murder of Brian Pettinger or Lorient Powell, but we can ask questions. 316 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:06,200 Also based on the new information we're receiving from Ron Little's family in New Zealand. 317 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,640 We think that we may have information which could be helpful to Lieutenant Myrick 318 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:14,880 and the team at the Suffolk Police Department, so we're going to offer to 319 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,039 convey that information to them. That information has been sent to the FBI regarding 320 00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:25,720 the Colonial Parkway murders, and there obviously is a different status. For instance, 321 00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:27,799 for me, as the brother of a murder victim, I have an 322 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,920 official role in the murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebeccadowski I don't have, and 323 00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:40,039 we don't have an official role in these other potentially related murders, as Kristin 324 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:45,480 says, the Colonial Parkway adjacent murders. And of course we've mentioned before how 325 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,480 difficult it can be considering that almost all of these cases have different jurisdictions that 326 00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:56,799 are dealing with them. You've got two FBI cases, two VSP cases, 327 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,160 but each of them is from a different jurisdiction. And Powell's case was being 328 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:07,160 overseen by Portsmouth and it sounds like Suffolk was looking into Brian Pettinger. So 329 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,799 you've got different jurisdictions who are trying to run point on these investigations, which 330 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:17,559 can make it very hard to establish commonalities and to get people to work together. 331 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,279 Quite frankly, our friends in law enforcement have talked about what a nightmare 332 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,079 multi jurisdictional cases can be, and I would imagine this is no different. 333 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,759 In talking to Brian Pettinger's former wife, who has since remarried, she had 334 00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:33,759 said one of the areas of confusion was, of course, he disappeared from 335 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,240 one location, the dance studio where he was teaching part time, and then 336 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:45,279 Brian Pettinger's pickup truck was found at the shopping center the second location. And 337 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:48,160 then it's not until I believe it's fifty nine days later, yep, that 338 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:52,799 his body is found in the river, and that's a third location. So 339 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:59,960 she said that even at the time, the investigation and even the agencies respond 340 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,519 consible for that investigation kept shifting. In this recent article from Andy Fox, 341 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,279 he mentions the Virginia State Police also investigated Lorin Powell's murder, and of course 342 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:18,400 we have the Suffolk Police Departments spokesperson indicating that they were the lead agency in 343 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,079 the Brian Pattinger case. There's a bit more detail in terms of Brian Pettinger's 344 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:30,920 murder that's worth exploring. One is that Brian Pattinger's former wife told me something 345 00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:34,960 very strange recently, which is that when Brian had gone missing, but before 346 00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:41,720 his body had been found once again, Ron Little inserted himself into that investigation 347 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:48,599 and insisted that he was going to lead the investigation as a private investigator looking 348 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:56,759 for his coworker's murderer. And yet Little behaved completely inappropriately towards her during the 349 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:03,079 time frame that Brian was missing. She told me that Little actually hit on 350 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:12,000 her in a very crude and unmistakable way during the timeframe of her husband at 351 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,000 this point only being a missing person. She said that Little was a complete 352 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:21,440 sleeze bag, and that he was actually trying to take advantage of the fact 353 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,240 that she was this grief stricken wife whose husband was missing at that point, 354 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:32,200 and Little is trying to take advantage of the situation from a sexual standpoint, 355 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:37,720 and you just find yourself shaking your head. This guy is just the sleeze 356 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:45,400 just oozes out of him. There's also a very strange connection to another person 357 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,839 who has since passed on. This is a friend of Pattengers named Wayne Elliot 358 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:59,160 Mack. And Wayne Mack committed suicide in June nineteen eighty eight, a few 359 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,039 months after after Pettinger's disappearance. He was a twenty one year old former Air 360 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:11,240 Force airman who was also a dance instructor and worked at the same dance studio 361 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:17,000 where Brian Pettinger worked part time. The two men were seen together the night 362 00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:23,960 that Pettinger disappeared. Wayne Mack was questioned about the disappearance of Brian Pettinger, 363 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:32,160 and the investigators said that they felt that there was a very good chance that 364 00:31:32,319 --> 00:31:37,279 Mack knew more about Brian's disappearance. Let me read a little bit from Andy 365 00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:44,039 Fox's coverage. The original Pettinger case investigator, Sergeant Carter Hicks, has since 366 00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:48,200 died. He told us the only known suspect died by suicide. He the 367 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:53,519 suspect denied being at the dance studio or seeing Brian that night, Hicks said 368 00:31:53,519 --> 00:32:00,319 at the time. However, the suspect later admitted leaving with Brian, also 369 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,240 failed a lie detector test, and then in June nineteen eighty eight, as 370 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:08,240 I mentioned, Wayne Mack died by suicide, and Hicks said in nineteen eighty 371 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:13,759 nine, I feel the suspect, Wayne Mack, held most of the answers 372 00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:16,039 because if he did not know who did it, we feel he was there 373 00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:22,640 when whatever happened did happen, it, told Wavy News in nineteen eighty nine, 374 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,640 and then, very curiously, in his suicide note, Wayne Mack wrote, 375 00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:35,279 quote, I didn't leave any clues, so don't feel guilty. Unquote. 376 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,079 He never explained that line, Andy Fox wrote, and Hicks told us 377 00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:42,480 they were at a dead end. Andy writes, after thirty three years, 378 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,680 that apparently hasn't changed. The investigation into death of Pettinger remains at a dead 379 00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:52,559 end. Very curious. I didn't leave any clues, so don't feel guilty. 380 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,440 And Kristin, as you and I have talked about, I'm not sure 381 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,880 if Wayne Mack is saying I didn't leave any clues that I was intending to 382 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:05,759 commit suicide, so don't feel guilty. Is he referring to his family that 383 00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:09,160 they shouldn't feel guilty they didn't see this coming. Or is he saying I 384 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:15,960 didn't leave any clues about Brian Pettinger's murder and don't feel guilty? Does he 385 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:19,839 mean himself here? So both parts of I didn't leave any clues, so 386 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,640 don't feel guilty can be earned a bit and it's a little hard to figure 387 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:30,920 out exactly what Wayne Mack means here. Ye Mac was from West Virginia. 388 00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:37,440 He moved back to his hometown of Parkersburg, West Virginia a couple of months 389 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,079 after Brian Pattinger had been found dead, and then he committed suicide and he's 390 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,880 buried in the Parkersburg Cemetery. I don't think I'd be comfortable reaching out to 391 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,359 his family about all of this. I think they've suffered significantly. But at 392 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:57,680 the same time, you just have to wonder if there's something to this. 393 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:05,160 Could Wayne Elliot Matt have known something about his friend Brian Craig Pettinger's untimely death. 394 00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:09,480 Just one of the many abundance mysteries and questions that we still have with 395 00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:14,599 relation to the Colonial Parkway murders. Let me give you a little bit more. 396 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,480 I recently had conversations with a man who worked with Brian Pettinger at the 397 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:28,039 Roses Department store. This guy worked with Pettinger in the spring and summer of 398 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:35,840 nineteen eighty six, and he contacted us to offer some observations about Brian Pettinger, 399 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:39,079 and he said some very curious things. This guy was an employee at 400 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:47,599 the Roses store, where Liberty Security provided security assistance. Brian Pettinger worked there 401 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,159 almost full time because Roses was having a lot of problems with theft. But 402 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,400 he said some very interesting things to me. Let me quote a couple of 403 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,599 these things. So this is a guy who worked with Pettinger. He said, 404 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,360 here's where I speak ill of the departed quote. I got a viscerally 405 00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:10,559 bad vibe from the guy that I was never interested in getting. He seemed 406 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:16,719 extremely sleazy, even by Newport News standards, in a way that seemed sexually 407 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,800 aggressive and transgressive and boundary crashing with less than a fully formed brain. This 408 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,840 guy's referring to himself. He was about eighteen years old at the time, 409 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,119 so he was pretty young. I thought he was a creepy pervert whom I 410 00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:37,480 would have thought of as a potential rapist. I think Brian would engage in 411 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:42,119 high risk behavior to get his wants and needs met. I mentioned in my 412 00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:46,079 long email on tone and setting and little on content in my previous email that 413 00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:51,280 he engaged in sexual behaviors that were odd even for a young man with a 414 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,800 high libido. Told me a story about walking into a back room at Rose's 415 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:02,119 department store where Brian Pettinger was a sign and finding Brian Pettinger and a young, 416 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:07,800 probably underage girl, whom he knew from Menhville High School, engaged in 417 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:14,480 sexual behavior in the back room of the department store. He's pretty confident that 418 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:19,480 Pettinger had done this repeatedly. He adds, the answer to your question is 419 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,119 that in the cells of my body. When I heard about Brian Pettinger's homicide, 420 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,760 I thought that Brian had played an active role in his own death, 421 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,679 something like he messed with the wrong guy's wife or daughter. Interesting first hand 422 00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:40,440 accounts of Pettinger's transgressive I thought that was an interesting choice of phrase. His 423 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:49,559 behavior and his willingness to exploit his position as the head of security for Liberty 424 00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:53,559 Security at this Roses department store, he said. In another situation, he 425 00:36:53,920 --> 00:37:00,679 found that Brian had once manhandled a male child, accusing him of shoplifting, 426 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,800 to the anger and dismay of his mother. I had to vouch for the 427 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,079 young man as having paid for his items, he actually had not stolen them. 428 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,039 Still, this was the period, he writes, It was dirty and 429 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:16,480 gritty and very Bible Belt Southern. I do not want to antagonize or hurt 430 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,760 people's feelings. This was just a world of difference between the quaint microcosms of 431 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,599 William and Mary and Colonial Williamsburg, Ganton, Norfolk, or the Fan in 432 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,559 Richmond and places like that scuzzy bar under the bridge. At the time, 433 00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:34,239 and even in the aforementioned neighborhoods, people were often different and needed to watch 434 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,760 their backs. This guy was shall we say, less than impressed with Brian 435 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:44,280 Pettinger and felt that Pettinger may have even actually played a role in his own 436 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,480 murder. It's hard to know what to believe or whether these cases are even 437 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:51,920 linked to the rest of the Colonial Parkway murders. But as you and I 438 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,360 have said before, we're not even entirely sure all of the official Colonial Parkway 439 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,079 murders cases are linked to each other. So this is just another one of 440 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:06,159 those continuing questions. In this case, so our Brian Pettenger and Lauren Powell's 441 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,079 murders linked to the rest of the Colonial Parkway murder series, That, dear 442 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:13,519 listeners, is for you to decide, but we hope that you'll let us 443 00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:16,760 know in our comments on our social media feeds what you think. Thank you 444 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,559 so much, for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see 445 00:38:21,559 --> 00:38:35,760 you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 446 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,599 Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo 447 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,960 art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind 448 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:52,280 Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us 449 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,320 on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on 450 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,199 the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas 451 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:07,119 on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.