1 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,559 We're back with another edition at the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, 2 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,280 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,399 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on ex at fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,519 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:30,559 --> 00:00:34,159 the premium version of the Federalist dot com as well. You get an ad 6 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,520 free experience comments with staff. It's a lot of fun, so join us 7 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,640 over there now. I am joined today by Emma Waters. Emma is the 8 00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:46,439 senior Research Associate at the Richard and Helen Devas Center for Life, Religion, 9 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:53,359 and Family at the Heritage Foundation. She covers IVF and reproductive technology in general, 10 00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:58,439 very very closely. She is one of the most clarion voices on this 11 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,719 topic and it has been a busy couple of weeks. Emma, thank you 12 00:01:00,759 --> 00:01:03,760 for joining the show. Yeah, of course, Emilie, thanks for having 13 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,040 me on today. I was just telling you before we started recording that I 14 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:12,680 scrolled through your Twitter for kind of inspiration before we were starting this conversation. 15 00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:18,959 And man, you have been on c SPIN, you have been on EWTN, 16 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,920 you have been quoted in a bunch of different places ever since the Alabama 17 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:26,959 IVF ruling was handed down. What was that, Emma, two weeks ago? 18 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,599 Now, maybe three going on three weeks? Yeah, from February sixteenth 19 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,519 to today, Okay, And just to set the stage a little bit, 20 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,120 when we recorded today, this very morning, I opened an email from one 21 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,879 of my favorite publications, the Free Press. Emma, I don't know if 22 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:46,120 you opened that email. It was riffing. The headline was riffing on and 23 00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:52,640 Colter's argument that abortion has become the rights, defund the police. And it 24 00:01:52,719 --> 00:01:57,280 was talking to women who had supported Ron de Santis in Florida but because of 25 00:01:57,319 --> 00:02:02,359 the six week ban, and then because they were associating and I think actually 26 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:05,799 this was just a woman in Alabama, so not a desantist votter, but 27 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,240 because they were associating the ruling in Alabama with the Republican Party, they were 28 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:15,800 falling out of sort of love with the Republicans, or questioning pro life views, 29 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,080 all of that in the mix. And I set the table with all 30 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,639 of this just to say I want to start with the moral questions and not 31 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:28,560 the political ones, because I think what we're doing, not you, of 32 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:30,319 course, but I think what the media is doing, and even the Republican 33 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,479 Party is doing, is sort of conflating these things. So, just in 34 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,960 the last couple of weeks since the ruling came down, can you talk to 35 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:46,080 us a little bit about whether you've been surprised by the response? Is about 36 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,039 what you would expect. Did anything interesting happen in the last couple of weeks 37 00:02:50,039 --> 00:02:54,759 as you watched this sort of morph into a huge national news story. Yeah, 38 00:02:54,840 --> 00:03:00,000 it's a really good question. Emily. On the one hand, I'm 39 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,639 not at all surprised by the response that we've seen among a lot of people 40 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:12,319 who especially feel very sensitive about anything related to reproduction, be it an abortion 41 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,800 or IVF, and feel a very personal sense of autonomy and even a personal 42 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,960 threat when these topics are brought up, because we are dealing with some of 43 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,599 the most intimate questions in life, the question of procreation, the ability to 44 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:31,120 have or not have children, and I think that those questions really get at 45 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,800 the deepest part of who a person is, the values that they hold. 46 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:43,599 Imagine all of the discourse on this and how emotionally people respond when in future 47 00:03:43,639 --> 00:03:50,039 fertilization in particular is brought up, and think of like the AOC comment recently 48 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,039 where she said she's not having children due to climate change, and her mother 49 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,840 in Puerto Rica was like, no, She's absolutely having kids. What are 50 00:03:55,879 --> 00:04:00,919 you guys talking about? And just this funny interplay of what you value ultimately 51 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,680 comes out and what you think of children one way or the other. And 52 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,039 so thinking about in future fertilization, I think the thing that has really surprised 53 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,879 me has been specifically within the pro life movement and among pro life Christians or 54 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:24,920 among pro life conservatives. So in future fertilization as well as in natural conception 55 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:30,000 inside of a woman's body. I believe that life begins at conception. The 56 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,839 Alabama decision, both the fertility clinic and the parents affirm that life begins at 57 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:38,120 conception. This is our basic medical biological definition. And because of that, 58 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:43,480 I also attach a moral duty and responsibility to that that because life begins a 59 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,959 conception, because this is a live, unique, distinct human being that has 60 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:51,079 not come into existence, that that human being, even at this very early 61 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,279 and undeveloped stage of life, deserves the full force of the laws protections to 62 00:04:57,399 --> 00:05:00,160 protect its life, to preserve its life, and to treat in a humane 63 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:04,800 way. And so I think the thing that has been surprising here has not 64 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:10,439 been the less response that's exactly part for the course, but it's those who 65 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,319 are consistently and affirmatively pro life when it comes to children in the womb. 66 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:18,279 But then the moment we begin talking about children created outside of the womb, 67 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:24,920 where we know that in a future fertilization the routine, normal way that it's 68 00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:27,759 practiced right. There are certainly exceptions to this, but the common way that 69 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:33,079 IVF is practiced involves the creation of a surplus of embryos that are then tested 70 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:38,639 for genetic issues for the sex of the child, even for secondary features like 71 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,480 ones IQ or skin color. This technology is available throughout the United States, 72 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,680 and then that embryo, those embryos are then selected and the ones who are 73 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,759 wanted are implanted in the woman or frozen for later use, and the embryos 74 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,879 that are unwanted are routinely destroyed or donated to research. And so, even 75 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:02,800 if there is a pro life argument to make for IVF, or way that 76 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,279 one chooses to use IVF in a way that is life affirming, we can't 77 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,040 talk about IVF without actually taking in the full picture. And so it's been 78 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,000 very surprising to see a mini pro lifeer say, well, of course, 79 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,360 we're fully in favor of IVF. Why would we ever be opposed to this? 80 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,959 This is a great thing, like IVF creates children. We're pro life, 81 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:27,439 we want more children. And it's the lack of depth and substance that 82 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,000 a lot of people have brought to that in not making a distinction between something 83 00:06:31,079 --> 00:06:35,480 that certainly does create life, but then also the factors in a beuture fertilization 84 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,279 that are certainly not pro life and are not life affirming in how many clinics 85 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:46,399 practice it. So I trust your take, I trust my colleague Jordan Boyd's 86 00:06:46,439 --> 00:06:50,319 take on the shore and send some excellent coverage on this. And I'm wondering, 87 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:55,639 Emma, if you agree with Michael Knowles that IVF is sort of inherently 88 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,839 I think he used the word evil something like that because he said it separates 89 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,639 the reproductive act from the conjugal act. That's probably farther than I would go, 90 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:11,199 although I see where sort logically he's making that point. What do you 91 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,279 think about that? Because a lot of what you focus on actually is technology, 92 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:20,439 and there's no way around it. IVF is obviously a technological modification to 93 00:07:20,879 --> 00:07:27,439 reproduction, and you've sort of started pulling at that thread and finding different ways, 94 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:30,519 different things that have become normalized, different things that we're on the path 95 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,279 to normalize. So are people like me who say, you know, I 96 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:42,720 think it's perfectly moral to separate the conjugal and the reproductive in these cases? 97 00:07:43,399 --> 00:07:47,399 Are we sort of normalized? Have we sort of been conditioned in your perspective, 98 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,439 to accept things we shouldn't. Yeah, this is a really great question, 99 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,399 and I'll start off with saying I think there are many Christians, there 100 00:07:56,399 --> 00:08:00,399 are many pro lifers. There are many people across the spectrum who are going 101 00:08:00,439 --> 00:08:03,920 to come to different conclusions on this question, who are going to worship together 102 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:07,959 in the same churches, work together. So I do think that this is 103 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,920 a multifaceted issue where you will have people that you respect on different sides when 104 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,800 I come to this issue. So I'm in the Protestant tradition, so thinking 105 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:22,399 about this as a moral issue, as a theological issue, apart from the 106 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:28,360 policy discussion explicitly, I in January actually wrote two long form essays for American 107 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:33,799 Reformer on how Protestants should think about reproductive technology, specifically focusing on in future 108 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,799 fertilization, and so to address this question, I looked at an overview of 109 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:45,240 what Protestant denominations currently teach on the topic, an overview of a biblical theology 110 00:08:45,279 --> 00:08:48,639 of infertility, how to Scripture inform the way that we think about this question, 111 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,840 And then I also looked at the question of technology itself. How do 112 00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:58,279 we think about technology, because, as you said in vieuture, fertilization is 113 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,960 a reproductive technology and can't be separated from that. So I will take each 114 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:09,759 of those in part here. So the first thing is doing a deep dive 115 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,519 into the biblical theology. There are certainly many Catholics who have a very firm 116 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:20,159 stance on in future of fertilization, like Michael Knowles where per poch On pull 117 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:26,320 the Second and other teachings, any act that separates the conjugal act, be 118 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,679 that contraception or in future of fertilization, is actually inherently separating something that God 119 00:09:30,759 --> 00:09:33,320 meant to remain together. And I think that there is a lot that's very 120 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:39,039 compelling about that argument, But particularly for Protestants, they're not necessarily going to 121 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,120 then take on the Catholic Church's teaching as much as they're going to ask the 122 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,399 question of what does the Bible say about this? And how can we discern 123 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:50,080 guidance from scripture to help inform our view of this, And so going through 124 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:56,360 scripture very briefly, we begin with Genesis one twenty seven where God creates a 125 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,879 man and woman he blesses them. I have to la you are like going 126 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:05,559 through scripture very briefly, starting with Genesis one and work our way to Revelation. 127 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:09,120 No, no, no, Genesis. We will get you through a 128 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:13,519 whole Bible. It's actually incredible. I am like a huge fan of Like 129 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,759 Genesis one through three is like kind of the greatest thing ever. It tells 130 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:20,080 you what you need to know about every other piece, including right becoming of 131 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:24,360 Christ. It's amazing. So Genesis one, God creates man and woman. 132 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,279 He blesses them in his image, and then he blesses them to be fruitful 133 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,279 and multiply and take dominion over the earth. And so this is a blessing 134 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:37,600 that includes per creation, but it is not a command in the sense that 135 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,879 one must absolutely pro create in order to be fruitful and multiply. It is 136 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:46,000 a blessing to do so. And there's a big distinction between the duties one 137 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,879 has to a blessing and the duty one has to a command, which I'll 138 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:54,039 get into in a second. We then shift to Genesis two and we see 139 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Adam and Eve brought together in marriage, and Scripture says that man will leave 140 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:01,399 his mother and father, woman will leave her mother and father, and they'll 141 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,240 be united in one flesh, this sort of leave and cleave model. And 142 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,240 so in Genesis one we get the what man and woman in part are created 143 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,639 to be fruitful in a way that that can be manifested as through procreation, 144 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,879 and Genesis two we get the how. How that procreation in particular takes place 145 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,720 is through the marriage of man and woman. So right from the beginning we 146 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:28,320 see that when it comes to reproductive technology like IVF, it is meant to 147 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,720 be within marriage between man and woman, and that that is a blessing to 148 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:37,840 procreate, but not a command to do so by necessarily any any means necessary. 149 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,320 And then from here I think it's really interesting just to think about how 150 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,759 Scripture then talks about what I call this sort of package deal of marriage, 151 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:52,080 sex and procreation. And so I go through many examples in the American Reformer 152 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,840 piece, but Basically, every time you see marriage, sex, and procreation 153 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,559 discussed, you see all three of them together. So Mica two fifteen is 154 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,600 the perfect example of this, where within a single verse it talks about all 155 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,919 three of those factors, and every single time they're brought up, you see 156 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:13,519 scripture constantly leaving them back together. In the Anglican tradition, for example, 157 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,080 we say that like one of the blessings or the purpose of marriage is the 158 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:22,559 procreation of children, and that from marriage comes sex, and within the boundaries 159 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,600 of sex comes pro creation. And it's meant when the world is functioning as 160 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,039 it ought, though with sin and the brokeness of humanity, it's often not 161 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:37,720 that children should come from that unified bond. I am. Rather, that 162 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:45,960 seems very compelling to me as a vision for pro creation, and particularly them, 163 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:52,080 being very skeptical of any technologies that seek to separate those acts. So 164 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:58,399 the use of certain contraceptions certainly create a divide between sex and pro creation. 165 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:01,879 The use of them viature fertilization creates a divide between marriage, sex and procreation. 166 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:05,840 And it's not to say that I think those things are inherently evil. 167 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:09,279 So to say something as a sin right is to say that it is wrong 168 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,480 at all times, in all places, for all people, and that is 169 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,240 a very bold predicament. But I do think that this suggests that it's something 170 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:22,480 that should be considered not as a first option for Christians, but certainly as 171 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:28,440 maybe like a last result, a resort that if you're struggling with infertility and 172 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,879 you reach a point where perhaps nothing else has worked, that one can prayerfully 173 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:39,840 potentially consider in future fertilization. But we see again in Scripture there are blessings 174 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:45,240 for when these things are kept together. But then in the case of Abraham 175 00:13:45,399 --> 00:13:48,840 and Sarah, right and the use of Hagar as effectively a concubine to have 176 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,679 the child that they desire, this circumventing of their problem of infertility actually is 177 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,080 one not blessed by God, but is in fact brings down a bunch of 178 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:03,759 purses on and each of their lives. Right, Sarah is incredibly cruel to 179 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,679 Hagar such the Abraham. Since Hagar away, Hagar is then found in a 180 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:13,600 desert with her son Ishmael, Ishmael and Isaac, their future generations end up 181 00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:16,320 being in a lot of conflicts, sort of indefinitely right, and yet God 182 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,840 cares for Hagar right, and Hagar is actually the only person in scripture, 183 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,039 the only woman in scripture who names God and says you were the God who 184 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:26,759 sees me. So we still see the hand of God and the care of 185 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:33,759 God upon these deviant forms of childbearing, but it certainly is clear that this 186 00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:39,720 was not the model initially step forward and then thinking about the question from the 187 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,960 technological angle, Oliver adonovan, an Anglican ethicist, and then Marshall mcclewan, 188 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,200 a Canadian philosopher, have provided I think some of the best insight on this 189 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:56,639 question. So Oliver O'Donovan points out that in future of fertilization does not heal 190 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:03,799 infertility. Infertility point to underlying causes within a man and or a woman's body 191 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:09,120 that contribute to the outcome of infertility. But when a couple uses infertility to 192 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,559 create a child, at the end of the day they are just as fertile 193 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,279 or just as infertile as they were to begin with. It in no way 194 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:22,679 actually heals the underlying conditions here. So instead it actually circumvents the problem. 195 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,080 And so which isn't to say we don't use technology to circumvent problems frequently, 196 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,080 but it is to say that we should be very clear and thoughtful about how 197 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,159 we are using technology to circumvent not only infertility infertility but also an aspect of 198 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:43,919 per creation. But then Marshall mccluan, he talks about how that we should 199 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:50,519 not assess a given technology simply based on what it does. So IVF creates 200 00:15:50,559 --> 00:15:54,799 embryos literally, right, But we should assess a given technology based on the 201 00:15:54,799 --> 00:16:00,039 social and psychic consequences that it bears on society. So how does the presence 202 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:06,120 and use of this technology actually reshape society and shape the way that we think 203 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,960 about marriage, sex and procreation. And frankly, that part of the discussion 204 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:15,600 is the one that I find the most compelling, even more than what we 205 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:19,759 can discern from scripture and other facets. It's the question of how has the 206 00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:25,200 presence and availability of IVF shaped us as people, shaped us as a nation. 207 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,759 And so this isn't just looking at this individual example of IVF, but 208 00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:37,399 the widespread use and availability of IVF and what we have seen from the presence 209 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:42,200 of IVF, the widespread accessibility of IVF is this move away from valuing the 210 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:52,279 inherent dignity and worth of each child to a fertility industry that profits from the 211 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,600 creation and destruction of human life, and in some sense this view of children 212 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,320 as a commodity right because in future of fertilization is not only for and fertile 213 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,720 man, woman, married couples, right, and feature fertilization is legally available 214 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:11,799 for anyone who chooses to use that, and we have no legal regulatory limitations 215 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,680 on that right, not even background checks for people who should not are not 216 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:19,240 safe to be with children. And so I think the question of how IVF 217 00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:25,720 has shaped and deformed or view of children such that they're commodity and specifically that 218 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:30,240 they're an act of the will, that adults exert their will on the process 219 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,680 of procreation, the decision of when to create, and that children are a 220 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,279 byproduct of that. That seems to be the most corrupt part of this that 221 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:44,359 I think to just simply say we support IVF it's amazing actually misses the much 222 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:48,759 deeper concerns here, and frankly, I think should cause us to then step 223 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:53,000 back and say, can we in good faith use this technology without further contributing 224 00:17:53,079 --> 00:17:59,720 to that commodification and in some sense to humanization of children based on the widespread 225 00:17:59,799 --> 00:18:03,960 use I don't think that individuals who use IVF are typically doing that or intend 226 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,079 anything bit other than the best right, But it's just in how the industry 227 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,279 functions, how the technology shapes us. There's potentially more going on here than 228 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:21,200 initially meets THEI. We're all aware. The stock market has seen some unprecedented 229 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,400 fluctuations just over the last several years. Silver, though, has historically been 230 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,720 considered a safe haven asset during times of market volatility. When that uncertainty rises, 231 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:34,359 investors often turn into precious metals like silver to preserve wealth and hedge against 232 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:41,319 economic instability. Owning physical silver coins also just provides you with a tangible asset 233 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,799 that you can actually hold in your hand. What a thought. In times 234 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:49,240 of economic uncertainty, having that tangible asset can provide a sense of security and 235 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:55,400 peace of mind. Now. CSN mint has been providing certified US mint collectible 236 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,240 coins and precious metals for over twenty years, and they're one of the most 237 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:06,640 trusted names in numismatics. You can explore CSN Mint's extensive catalog of bullion bars, 238 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:11,599 coins and numismatic collectibles. Whether you're a seasoned investor or a passionate collector 239 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,480 you'll find a diverse range of products to suit your own needs and your own 240 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:19,160 preferences. So at csn MINT, trust is paramount rest assured that every product 241 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:26,160 you purchased includes the original certificate of authenticity or is certified and graded by a 242 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,039 third party grader to ensure origin and purity. With CSN Mint, you can 243 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:36,599 build your collection with confidence, experience world class customer service and support. With 244 00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:41,680 CSN Mint, their team of knowledgeable professionals is here to assist you every step 245 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,160 of the way, from product selection all the way to order fulfillment and beyond. 246 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:48,640 So if you're going to collect something, it might as well be money. 247 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:55,079 Go to csnmnt dot com slash Federalist and use promo code Federalist at checkout 248 00:19:55,079 --> 00:19:59,960 to get a free silver American Eagle over thirty dollars in value with your purchase 249 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:07,279 of seventy five dollars or more. Absolutely, and I was hoping you could 250 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:11,039 talk about that, actually, because you know, as you were walking through 251 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,920 all the research and the logic that you put into the American Reformer articles, 252 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,680 I was curious how those articles were received. But I'm extra curious if you 253 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,400 could just talk em because I think these things are connected actually about what people 254 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,839 who are generally pro IVF and you know, again understand like I do, 255 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,000 and or believe like I do, that there are circumstances in which IVF is 256 00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:45,559 moral and wonderful. Even so, this is an industry with incredible excesses. 257 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,799 It is underregulated, It has a very dark side, the commodification angle. 258 00:20:53,039 --> 00:21:00,720 You sounded like Katie Faust there wonderful hue compliment because her organization, it's just 259 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,240 been on to sow many times, is called them before us, this idea 260 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,160 that children exist to serve adults, and she draws that line into other conversations 261 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:14,119 about marriage and such. I know this is a big question, but if 262 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,799 you had to talk a little bit about what people who are pro IVF and 263 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:25,519 have seen it used to wonderful ends, what they aren't seeing under the hood 264 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,279 basically of this industry, because honestly, the media never covers it, you 265 00:21:29,279 --> 00:21:33,680 would really have to dig to get a lot of this information. Great, 266 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,079 and yeah, I don't think that we would have the language to address this 267 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,160 issue without Katie Faust. Her impact on this movement is just huge. We 268 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,400 are all indebted to her, to say the least. But yeah, so 269 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,839 this is a really good question about the actual industry, the practice, the 270 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,839 nuts and bolts of in future fertilization. So, typically when a couple is 271 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:59,200 experiencing infertility, which in some states is defined as the inability to procreate without 272 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,240 technology, So same sex couples or single people could be deemed infertile, and 273 00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:08,799 typically and medically, it has to do with the inability to naturally conceive a 274 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:14,039 child after a year of trying. So when this happens, oftentimes doctors say, 275 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:17,079 okay, we've run a test or to you, we're not sure what's 276 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,519 causing this infertility. You should go meet with a fertility clinic. So at 277 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:23,119 this point, you have a couple who deeply desires to have children, who 278 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:29,880 are going through a very emotionally difficult and fraught time trying to seek answers, 279 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,200 and so they come to a fertility clinic, and effectively, fertility clinics, 280 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:40,519 like you said, are underregulated. We have one federal law that governs the 281 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,119 practice of IVF, but it really only focuses on success rate reporting from clinics 282 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,559 and then tracks a few basic outcomes associated with the practice. But there is 283 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:56,960 no legally enforceable regulations that this federal law really confers on the practice of IVF 284 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:03,400 itself, and then certain states have different practices governing the moral and ethical side, 285 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,079 but those are rare and frankly few and far between. So in a 286 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:15,920 future of fertilization, a normal round would involve artificially stimulating a woman's hormones or 287 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,279 her ovaries in particular, so that she actually produces not one egg at a 288 00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:23,480 given time, as a woman naturally does in a month, but produces anywhere 289 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:29,559 from five to twenty eggs at a given time. You can create more than 290 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:33,079 that, but that's usually the range. So a woman's body goes through the 291 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:37,519 deeply painful and difficult process of the hormone shots manipulation, and then there's the 292 00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:41,519 egg retrieval process, which, if anyone has listens to the New York Times 293 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:45,759 Retrievals podcast, can go really well or it can go really really poorly if 294 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:49,079 things are going on. Basically, the hormones are incredibly difficult on her body. 295 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:56,599 Once the eggs are retrieved, they then receive sperm from the man. 296 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,440 If it's between a husband and a wife, I'll get into the third party 297 00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:04,079 in a second. They receive sperm from the man, which like the unsavory 298 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:10,000 reality is oftentimes this is a man going into a specific room with a plastic 299 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:15,240 covered chair, access to pornography and a cup, and he's asked to rich 300 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:18,960 and it's pretty gnarly. So a lot of people have concerns even just in 301 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,359 how the use of pornography in a fertility industry, which is not required, 302 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,599 and I certainly don't think that everyone does it, but this is what's readily 303 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:32,319 available. At that point, the fertility clinic will then take the available eggs 304 00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:37,640 and the available sperm and they will fertilize individual eggs and Petrie dishes in the 305 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,039 process of a viture fertilization. At that point they assess the number of embryos 306 00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:47,599 they've created, and this is where it gets really interesting. We don't actually 307 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,079 have any laws or recommendations governing how many embryos should be created in a single 308 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:59,160 round of IVF, and we don't really have firm numbers on how many are 309 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:03,119 really created at a given time. So the most conservative estimate we have is 310 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,279 that about eight embryos are created in a single round of IVF, so eight 311 00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:14,440 eggs fertilized by sperm. On the other hand, we have popular accounts from 312 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,799 people like Paris Hilton, who created twenty embryos in a single round of IVF 313 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:23,480 in order to hopefully select the sex that she wanted. And so at that 314 00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:29,279 point, the embryos are created, and then they can undergo testing to see 315 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:33,559 which embryos are healthy, which embryos do they think are the most viable, 316 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,799 are the most likely to successfully implant in a woman. But they can also 317 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,480 test for a host of other features. They can test for the sex of 318 00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:45,920 the child, for any genetic problems. It's this child more likely to have 319 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,039 Down syndromes, this child more likely to have another problem, right, But 320 00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:56,680 they can also select for things like the skin color, the IQ of your 321 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:02,000 child, the hair and eye color. And there have been a few many 322 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,039 controversies in California where clinics openly advertised on the ability to design your own child, 323 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:11,960 to choose your perfect baby. And so that's a seventy five percent of 324 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,519 clinics in the US offer pre implantation genetic testing, which is what they used 325 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:19,119 to test them. Seventy three percent of them will let you choose the sex 326 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,279 and other secondary features. So then at that point the parents are then presented 327 00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:27,440 with the options, and so one of the really heartbreaking parts of this is 328 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,119 that we have a number of reports where parents entering the process, we're not 329 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,119 aware of how many embryos were going to be created, right, So on 330 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,480 average families want to have around three kids, right, and especially if you're 331 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,640 using IVF, you're probably not going to use IVF for many more than three 332 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,440 children. So there have been heartbreaking instances where parents are then told, okay, 333 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:52,519 we have ten embryos here, what do you want to do? And 334 00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:56,039 the parents are like, okay, we thought we were only going to have 335 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:57,920 a couple of embryos. This is a lot, all right, what do 336 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,799 we do from here? Placed in a really difficult position where certainly it can 337 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:07,000 take multiple embryos before you have a successful child that's conceived in the womb, 338 00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:11,119 so you may need all ten embryos, But in many cases, parents have 339 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:17,519 the number of children they hope to have and then still have leftover embryos because 340 00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:21,759 of the number that we're created, and in many cases are put in just 341 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,200 impossible situation whether than ask to decide the fate of these embryos of their children. 342 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:33,400 And I think that this reality is present not only for self avowed pro 343 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,640 life people, right, but look at the statistics. So in the United 344 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:44,799 States, we have reports show about a million encounting frozen embryos in the United 345 00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:51,839 States currently. Many of these embryos have been frozen for years or decades at 346 00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:56,559 a time, even parents keeping them even when they have the number of children 347 00:27:56,599 --> 00:28:00,000 they want to have. And so what this tells us is that parents are 348 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:04,160 uncomfortable with the idea of destroying their embryos or donating them to research. Right, 349 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,200 they're choosing to continue to pay every month to maintain the lives, but 350 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,319 they also don't intend to use them themselves, and so they're left in this 351 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,599 difficult position where they don't want to destroy them, but they also don't know 352 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,920 what to do with them. And I think this is the most heartbreaking part 353 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,960 of the industries because we have no safeguards in place to really protect parents from 354 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:26,279 the emotional turmoil. And not only parents, but think about the children that 355 00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:30,400 they do have. I have a number of friends who are now in their 356 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,440 twenties and they still have siblings that are frozen as embryos, and they are 357 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:40,480 living with the reality of I was chosen, But what about my embryonic siblings 358 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,039 who have not been chosen? And it is. So that's just like a 359 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:47,960 whole other thing that I think is going to grow into a really pressing problem 360 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,519 for future generations. Do we try to carry our own siblings in the what 361 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,160 do we do with these children that are there? So that's the industry, 362 00:28:56,559 --> 00:29:02,440 aside from its huge because that's interesting because it's also what the Alabama case are 363 00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:08,319 revolved around, which people suing for wrongful death because something life ended, their 364 00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:11,799 embryos lost their lives, which is why they brought a suit under wrongful death, 365 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:15,480 and they were very upset about it. And then it created a situation 366 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:19,319 where I'm curious as to what regulations are like around the country on this. 367 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,319 People lost ownership over their embryos, and so some of the backlash to the 368 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:30,480 Alabama ruling was from people who were upset that these lives, what they saw 369 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,839 as human lives, no longer belonged to them and in the future, indefinitely, 370 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:44,559 you could cryogenically freeze for centuries theoretically longer than that, So the ownership 371 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:51,160 question becomes absolutely terrifying. And I don't know that we're prepared to deal with 372 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,279 that. No, we like certainly or not. We don't have the legal 373 00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:57,799 practice we don't have the precedent for it, and frankly, there doesn't seem 374 00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:02,559 to be much of an interest in the bioethic considerations when it comes to this 375 00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:07,640 technology. It's oftentimes just oftentimes just reduced to this couple or person wants a 376 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,920 child. This technology can create a child. We should do that because we 377 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:15,400 value children, we want to see them happy, right, But then we 378 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,680 ignore all the other aspects of this, of what happens to the embryos that 379 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:26,720 are frozen indefinitely. One massive problem is what happens when the couple divorces. 380 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:33,759 So anecdotally, divorce rates seem to be rather high with couples pursuing children through 381 00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:37,799 in future of fertilization, and so in many instances we've seen lawsuits across the 382 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:41,079 country where the couple then gets a divorce, they still have a number of 383 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:44,920 frozen embryos, and the woman's like, well, we're getting a divorce, 384 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,440 but I still want to have their children, like I want them and planted, 385 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:51,160 I want the chance to bring them into the world. And then in 386 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,519 some cases the father wants nothing to do with that, and he's like, 387 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:56,279 no, we're getting a divorce. I don't want these children anymore. I 388 00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,920 don't want to be responsible for them, right, because that introduces all the 389 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,599 custody issues of child support and are you going to be a present father are 390 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:08,119 you not? And in many cases, the court's rule in favor of not 391 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:14,079 bringing the embryos into the world. In most instances they rule against the right 392 00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:18,880 for the embryos to have a chance in life. And so thinking of ownership, 393 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,039 now, this woman has children, her children in an embryonic form that 394 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,759 she is legally not allowed to bring into the world because we've separated marriage, 395 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:32,680 sex and procreation such that you introduce a host of other issues that can now 396 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,279 manipulate the experience. And even our rights are our desire to write naturally care 397 00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:42,799 for our children and interact with them as persons in that way. And of 398 00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:48,440 course there's the money question, right. This is not a philanthropic, altruistic 399 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:53,960 industry. This is a highly lucrative industry that makes much money off of in 400 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,000 future fertilization. Fifteen to thirty thousand dollars for a single round of IBA on 401 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,279 average, it costs about sixty one thousand dollars from start to finish before a 402 00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:09,039 couple will actually successfully birth a child. So multiple rounds of IVF paying for 403 00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:15,400 the medications, paying for any storage fees, usually before they're able to successfully 404 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,160 birth a child. And on top of this, we have a lucrative egg 405 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:28,000 and sperm quote unquote donation market where men and women can sell their egg or 406 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:31,559 sperm and then other men, women are couples can buy their egg or sperm. 407 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,720 And this is not a one size fits all. There are different prices 408 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,440 for different types of egg and sperm that are available depending on who the parent 409 00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:45,400 is. So, for example, it is illegal for credit card companies to 410 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:49,920 advertise on a college campus because we recognize that college students are probably going to 411 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,720 make some foolish decisions if they have unfettered access to a credit card. It 412 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:58,440 is not illegal for egg donation banks to advertise on college campuses saying, hey, 413 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:00,680 if you donate your eggs, we can pay you up to fifty thousand 414 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:06,279 dollars. Isn't that amazing? Come donate your eggs without any consideration of the 415 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,400 risks involved in this or the moral considerations of like this will now be your 416 00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:13,920 DNA going out in the world. Yeah, so this is sort of like 417 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,720 looking under the hood. What we're looking at here is a business model that 418 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,440 is devoted to as little regulation as possible, limiting the way that they function 419 00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:28,200 in the world. Which isn't it all a reflection on oftentimes the couples coming 420 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,680 into it, but it is a reflection on the fertility industry and their desire 421 00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:39,920 to keep as much of this under wraps as possible. Don't believe the bs. 422 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,480 The watch Doot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris 423 00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:47,359 helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 424 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,359 What's next for the Biden propaganda machine. Biden nomics one over like a 425 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,880 lead balloon. Ahead of Biden's State of the Union address, he plans to 426 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:00,240 address shrink flation while blaming grocery store chains for gouging its customers. Whether it's 427 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,160 happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be 428 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,640 informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, 429 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:14,880 Spotify or whatever you get your podcasts. You caught and I'm sure you're 430 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,639 aware of this. I'm not bringing into some mockery for a headline you wrote 431 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:22,920 for Heritage last week about how sex offenders basically would have access to the creation 432 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:28,840 of children with IVF you mentioned earlier, people could theoretically carry their siblings if 433 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:35,760 they've been and definitely cryogenically frozen. Like the future of this industry without not 434 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,960 just some sort of precise moral clarity in the regulatory space, but also in 435 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:45,559 the sort of cultural space, because and this is a good segue to just 436 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,000 asking you again about the reaction over the last couple of weeks, which you 437 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:58,159 said, you know, even pro life Christians sort of rushed to endorse things 438 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:02,960 that if they fully thought and paused about the ramifications of and sort of thought 439 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,440 ten years down the line, twenty years down the line, one hundred years 440 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,039 down the line, they might not endorse. It's just sort of easy because 441 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:15,960 the media pressure is so strong to kind of jump to different ends here. 442 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:22,000 But this is moving really quickly in some very very dark directions, and without 443 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:28,000 the cultural appetite for that regulation and that moral clarity, it doesn't matter if 444 00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:30,440 you regulate, if you try to regulate it, because in the last couple 445 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:37,239 of weeks it's looked a whole lot like nobody wants to nobody has the stomach 446 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:44,960 to do appropriate regulations here because the politics of this are devastating for Republicans and 447 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,320 I just don't think there's any question about that. I think a lot of 448 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:52,320 women it fits this very powerful narrative, like the War on Women from twenty 449 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,960 twelve. You go back further to that, your cover photo on Twitter is 450 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:01,519 Phyllish Schlaffley, and the era absolutely smeared. The continue to smear her for 451 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:07,760 appousing equal rights of thement in ways that are utterly false and just completely ignore 452 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:14,000 her pressions. So what can be done, Emma? What can be done? 453 00:36:14,639 --> 00:36:16,840 And so you bring up the crux of the matter that every time this 454 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,000 topic is brought up, we talk about it specifically through the lens of protecting 455 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:28,599 access to IVF, which, to clarify, is not focusing on how do 456 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:32,559 we help infertile couples receive the care that they need in order to heal their 457 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:37,119 infertility and have the children they desire. That is a very good conversation we 458 00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:42,679 should be having, and that opens the playing field to actually focusing on the 459 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,840 problem at hand, which is a couple who desires to have children struggling with 460 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,400 a medical issue that doesn't allow them. But by focusing on IVF in particular, 461 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:58,039 right, we're actually saying, how can we make this technology available? 462 00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:00,239 And in many cases it's about how do we make it available to anyone who 463 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:07,159 wants to use it. So Senator Duckworth recently introduced and pushed for a unanimous 464 00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:10,960 consent vote, which was blocked by Senator Cindy Smith Hyde for the second year 465 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:17,360 in a row, that would for her Access to Family Building Act, So 466 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,840 her Access to Family Building Act, which is is a really good example for 467 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,840 a lot of the sorts of legislation that we're seeing on the federal and state 468 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:30,159 level that are aiming to quote protect access to IVF. It would make IVF 469 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:35,320 a statutory right for adults, no age limit, no requirements on who those 470 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,480 adults are, no background checks for are these adults fit to have children? 471 00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:43,280 But simply IVF is a statutory right for adults and adults, these adults have 472 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,920 an absolute right to decide what happens to the gam meets they create, the 473 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,639 embryos that they create. Should they want to destroy them, freeze them, 474 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,760 test them, genetically edit them, clone them, turn them into designer babies. 475 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,639 They have an absolute right to that, and the law covers that, 476 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:04,199 and the CRS assessment of this law affirms those things. So that reminds me 477 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,920 so much actually of the Equal Rights Amendment. It reminds me of the Equality 478 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:13,480 Act. These laws that media picks up talking points from left wing groups, 479 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:22,320 but those talking points completely ignore the obvious legal ramifications that would come from these 480 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,719 things, and then conservatives cave to that media pressure and adopt the same sort 481 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,239 of talking points and all of the potential consequences down the road, which with 482 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,320 the Equal Rights Amendment, for example, we've seen are I we'll deal with 483 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,519 that when we get to it. Yeah, which I'm always happy to talk 484 00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:39,679 about Equal Rights Amendment, right, But like, this is a very broad 485 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,119 and far reaching policy that, in failing to account for the narrow and particular 486 00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:52,079 instances, opens the flood dates for a host of politically unpopular and very harmful 487 00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:57,519 realities. And so what's so interesting to me is, as you're saying, 488 00:38:57,679 --> 00:39:01,079 we're not only dealing with the IVF today, but we are legislating and building 489 00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:07,280 a moral framework about the use of reproductive technologies for decades to come. And 490 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,880 that is why it's so important that we get things right and how we talk 491 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,719 about and think about and legislate IVF now. And here's why. So the 492 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,519 predominant focus on the federal and state level is to protect access to IVF, 493 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:29,039 building out a legal framework that enables any adult, regardless of the family structure 494 00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:32,840 the lack thereof their background, to have the right to use IVF to create 495 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:39,559 children. There are, of course, still medical and natural law limitations on 496 00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:44,079 what a person can do. So one individual who is mocking me on Twitter, 497 00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:45,840 was like, well, should we have the same limits to IVF as 498 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,599 we do for natural born children? And I was like, well, if 499 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:52,599 we do, then only a man and a woman can use IVF, because 500 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:58,599 those are the literal, physical, natural limits we have. Right if he's 501 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:01,280 in favor of that, I will not stop him in the slightest But there 502 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,880 are certain biological limits that we have right now that we are using law to 503 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:14,079 obscure but are still in place. But IVF is actually a somewhat outdated and 504 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:20,320 fairly ineffective way at addressing this problem. But something that we are currently actively 505 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:28,760 and successfully testing on mice is in vitro gammotogenesis, so it's called IVG for 506 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:37,639 short. In twenty sixteen, Japanese researchers successfully tested and produced multiple generations of 507 00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:43,159 mice using IVG in twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three. One of those 508 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,800 years, Brown University hosted a huge seminar on this issue, and basically what 509 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:57,920 IVG is is it allows scientists to reprogram modify any cell into a viable egg 510 00:40:58,119 --> 00:41:01,199 or sperm, which means they could take a skin cell from your face, 511 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:09,239 from your cheek, from your leg, and reprogram that cell into a viable 512 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:15,199 egg and sperm cell such that you no longer need egg and sperm from individual 513 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:22,119 and distinct men and women, but you simply need DNA that you can remodify, 514 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:28,559 modify, reprogram into the given egger sperm. They've done this with mice, 515 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,559 using skin cells from the mouse's tell to then make an egg or sperm, 516 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:37,719 and then fertilize that egger sperm, either with the mouse's own whether they're 517 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:43,400 a man or woman, or with another mice, implant those embryos once they've 518 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,119 been created into the egger mice, and then birth children. But children not 519 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,679 conceived from egg and sperm. In IVF or egg and sperm, naturally conceived 520 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,519 children can sive from skin cells that were genetically reprogrammed. Now some of those 521 00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:04,320 mice since twenty sixteen have been born without a brain or with significant genetic physical 522 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,559 deformities. But some of those mice have been born normal and able to naturally 523 00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:15,440 reproduce with other mice and live a seemingly normal life. And so there's been 524 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:22,559 a massive shift in the scientific literature on reproductive technology to effectively say that when 525 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:28,000 we get to the point of testing IVG on humans, which is about fifteen 526 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,480 to twenty years down the road, that's like the sort of further end of 527 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:36,880 what people have estimated. What we're looking at here is an end to the 528 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,880 IVF industry as we know it. It's an end to the donor egins ferm 529 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,159 industries we know it because we no longer need those things. We only need 530 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:51,039 skin cells that can be reprogrammed. But with that it will biologically enable through 531 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:59,280 insane artificial reconstruction, a sexual reproduction, reproduction with two men or two women, 532 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,599 or even poly reproduction with multiple strands of DNA being used in the creation 533 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:10,079 of children. And so the thing to highlight here is right now in IVF, 534 00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:17,440 we're establishing legal structures that enable any sorts of individuals to legally create children 535 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:23,119 through IVF the law. As a teacher, it reflects our morality it shapes 536 00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:25,679 the way that we think, and it shapes what we value to some degree. 537 00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:30,760 If we have widespread laws in place that only view IVF as a question 538 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:37,119 of access and legal access, then in twenty to thirty years, when IVG 539 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:43,159 allows scientists to medically and biologically create children through any of these means necessary, 540 00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:45,599 we will have the legal structure in place to affirm it, and then the 541 00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:52,840 medical technology to enable the creation of children from any sorts of human beings, 542 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,760 with any sorts of human beings based on skin cells, not the egg and 543 00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,679 sperm, than a man or woman naturally create. That makes sense because this 544 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,239 is like it seems really far out, but like also is like literally just 545 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,880 being talked about normally in the literature today. Of course, yeah, I 546 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,760 mean, of course it's not surprising at all. It does make sense. 547 00:44:12,599 --> 00:44:16,039 And I'm impressed that you've followed the science, as Anthony Fauci would say, 548 00:44:16,039 --> 00:44:21,000 as well as you have, because that's there's just so much going on there. 549 00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:28,000 And I think actually one of the ways these things metastasize is because there's 550 00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:34,360 sort of a gatekeeping if you're not in the academic sort of world of bioethics, 551 00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:39,800 if you're not in the world of these types of experiments, the places 552 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,679 that are doing this research, the institutions that are doing these research. This 553 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,000 research A, if you object to it, you're not an expert, so 554 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,360 you're not credible. And then B it's hard to follow in the first place, 555 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,039 because if you're not an expert, it actually is hard to dive into 556 00:44:57,079 --> 00:45:00,639 all of this. So it I mean it, it has to be pretty 557 00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:04,880 difficult to follow all of the developments because they're sort of intentionally gate kept from 558 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,719 people who oppose them. Yeah, and they're just right like not broadly available 559 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,880 yet. But I give that example to highlight why it's so important that we 560 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:19,800 do think very carefully about how we address current reproductive technologies, because if we 561 00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:22,079 either a stay in the position where we're like, oh, I don't know. 562 00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:25,639 IVF seems fine, Sure everyone has access, that's okay, right, 563 00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:29,159 like kind of throw our hands up, like this is morally complicated, it's 564 00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:35,559 personally complicated. We are not only failing to address the bioethic issues of our 565 00:45:35,679 --> 00:45:40,320 day, but we're actively setting our children up for a much worse crisis when 566 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,639 it comes to these issues. Yeah, so I think just like this is 567 00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:49,239 not just a matter of like the access of today, it's the technology of 568 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,400 tomorrow that will really reform member shape what we even think is possible now. 569 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:59,199 And one thing that I wanted to highlight on on IVF, especially along the 570 00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,280 pro life question, and right again, I think that there are many pro 571 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:07,199 life people who are also pro IVF, and I think that you certainly can 572 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,719 practice IVF in a way that is life affirming, and so we need to 573 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,119 make room for that in our discourse. Right this isn't a strict binary between 574 00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:20,639 either you support IVF no limitations or you're an anti IVF, anti woman bigot, 575 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,800 right Like, there's actually a lot of ground in between that we can 576 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:29,840 responsibly use this technology. How dare you call Michael Knowles a bigot? Ms? 577 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,719 Michael Wold appreciate the joke. I'm sure he would. So you know 578 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:40,840 from twenty twenty one data from the CDC that in that year a little over 579 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:46,239 four hundred and thirteen one hundred thousand rounds of IVF were practiced and of those 580 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,880 four hundred and thirteen hundred thousand rounds of IVF, about ninety seven thousand children 581 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,079 were born, which means that overall IVF has about a twenty three percent success 582 00:46:57,159 --> 00:47:00,480 rate, which is a very low success rate. If you're viewing IVF as 583 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,800 the best or the only way to address in fertility, it's actually going to 584 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,559 be a very fraught and expensive process to try to have a child. If 585 00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:13,480 you break that down by age groups, women in their twenties and thirties typically 586 00:47:13,519 --> 00:47:19,159 have higher success rates base they typically have higher quality eggs or healthier bodies. 587 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,360 Once you reach the age of forty, the chances that a woman is able 588 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:29,159 to conceive a child with IVF drops well below ten percent. By forty five, 589 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,559 it's like a three percent chance. I think it's very very low. 590 00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:36,760 But what these numbers don't tell us that I think is so important for pro 591 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:42,480 life people to keep in mind in particular, is that a single round of 592 00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:50,519 IVF can create anywhere from eight to twenty embryos conservatively. So if you say, 593 00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:54,480 on average, a single round of IVF creates about ten children, and 594 00:47:54,519 --> 00:48:00,760 we had over four hundred and thirteen thousand children create rounds of ib in a 595 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,119 single year, that means that, based on twenty twenty one data, in 596 00:48:05,159 --> 00:48:10,280 a single year, over four point one million embryos were created in the United 597 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:16,239 States. Of those, four point one million embryos, only about ninety seven 598 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:22,920 thousand children were actually born, which meant that the other embryos are either frozen, 599 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:28,039 failed to implant, were destroyed, or were donated to research. Those 600 00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:32,280 are the only four options, which means that the success rate of IVF for 601 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:39,480 the embryos created is only about two point three percent, because ninety seven percent 602 00:48:39,519 --> 00:48:45,320 of embryos on average that are created in a given year don't result in the 603 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,119 birth of a child. So these are very very low numbers and not numbers 604 00:48:51,159 --> 00:48:54,000 right. We're talking about human beings, distinct human beings, embryonic human life 605 00:48:55,039 --> 00:49:00,519 that through the current practice of IVF, don't actually aren't actually born as children. 606 00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:06,920 There's just so much waste that's embedded in the practice of IBF, such 607 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:12,599 that we are creating millions of embryos in a given year for about one hundred 608 00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:15,920 thousand children that are being born, which again isn't to say that that means 609 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,840 that one should never practice c IBF, but it does mean that one we 610 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,360 need much better regulations in place to ensure that we're actually creating the number of 611 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,880 embryos that we're intending to use, but also ensuring that the mbryos we do 612 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:37,000 create. We have the technology and we have the highest standard of medical care 613 00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:42,079 in place such that they're not being destroyed or treated frivolously by the fertility industry, 614 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,559 such that a clinic can, as they did in Alabama, right leave 615 00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:49,400 a door open for an unauthorized patient in the adjoining hospital to come and just 616 00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:53,519 destroy a batch of embryos. Yeah, so I just think like we're creating 617 00:49:53,519 --> 00:49:58,920 millions of embryos, very few children are born. It's a very low success 618 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,159 rate for the embryos. And again for people who care deeply for that question, 619 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,719 I think it brings a lot of concerns to the sort of wanton way 620 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,599 IVF treats human life or the fertility industry treats human life. Some of this 621 00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:17,719 also reminds me of the Terry Schivo debate of the early aughts, because you 622 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,960 know, even in that Free Press article we were talking about at the beginning, 623 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,840 there's a woman in it who says she I think she used the phrase 624 00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:30,159 m babies, which I'm sure you've heard, Emma, but is referring to 625 00:50:30,159 --> 00:50:37,440 the embryos. And I have a pretty clear perspective on why we should, 626 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,800 uh you know, respect embryonic life and why we should respect the life of 627 00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:47,000 uh non sentient uh you know, derisively referred to as vegetable adults like Terry 628 00:50:47,039 --> 00:50:52,239 Schivo. But what would you say. I'm to a woman who you know 629 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,880 loves her m babies but says in the Free Press article they're not the same 630 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,719 as her children. I think she said, like, they're not the same 631 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,039 as my three children who are here right now. I can see them, 632 00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:06,400 I can hold them, right, and it's right. So there is a 633 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:12,280 difference in our perception of the status of embryos versus the status of children who 634 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,199 were born that we're engaging with. And I think a really interesting example of 635 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:22,280 this is in the development of the sonogram machine. So sonograms are used to 636 00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:29,480 observe the baby in uterow and when sonograms were introduced prior to that, for 637 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:30,880 like all the human history, right, because they were introduced them like the 638 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:37,159 twentieth century, you only saw a belly. You could sometimes feel the baby, 639 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,719 right, but you never saw the child inside the woman's body until the 640 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:45,440 child came out in birth right. And so the moment sonograms were introduced, 641 00:51:45,519 --> 00:51:46,559 all of a sudden, you see a lot of people be like, wait, 642 00:51:47,079 --> 00:51:50,679 that's a baby inside the woman. Right, Like, this isn't just 643 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,480 like a fetus or a block or some unknown object, right, Like, 644 00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:59,400 this is a child that's moving, sucking, gets thumb, smiling when it 645 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,280 eats care It's like frowning when it eats broccoli, like some of the really 646 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,840 funny videos they've done as sonograms while others are eating. Right. And so 647 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,239 sonograms in many states are required before a woman chooses an abortion because they want 648 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,960 her to have to the best of her knowledge and understanding of what it is 649 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:19,199 inside of her body. I think that same analogy should be very insightful for 650 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,559 how we think about embryonic human life. It's incredibly small, right, it 651 00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:28,280 doesn't look like a human. We can't perceive of it or see it in 652 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,159 the same way as we would a child who was born or a child in 653 00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:36,280 the womb. But that doesn't mean that our perception is necessarily correct, right, 654 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,320 or seeing the full picture here. And so the thing that I would 655 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:45,880 say to this is we get into a very very very murky and very very 656 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:52,679 compromising waters the moment we try to choose an arbitrary line of what life is 657 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:58,320 valuable, what life is sentient, what life is worth preserving, and what 658 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,559 life isn't right. Quickly get into ablest lines of like, well, this 659 00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:07,280 person has the ability can do this, and person who does oftentimes, whether 660 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:12,000 we intend to or not, reduced to the capabilities of the person involved, 661 00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:19,480 be it the capabilities of an embryo or of a severely disabled person, right, 662 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,199 or of a child. Right. So, my daughter now is eleven 663 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:29,360 months old. She has just started to walk, She's started to say Mama, 664 00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:31,400 Dad, Dad, is just like actually the cutest thing in the entire 665 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:36,639 world. Right, But she still doesn't have the ability to speak in full 666 00:53:36,679 --> 00:53:40,920 sentences. She can't ride a bike, she can't walk to the door and 667 00:53:42,159 --> 00:53:45,199 you know, open it to welcome a guest that's coming in. Right, 668 00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:49,920 She is unable to do many of the things that we would associate with a 669 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,840 normal, functioning, healthy human being, And yet she is no less a 670 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,239 human being, right, She is just a human being at a different stage 671 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,880 of development than say, you or I are right, and we happen to 672 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,519 be what most adults tend to act and function as. Right, But in 673 00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:09,480 no way are those usually usually right? Maybe from what I got after a 674 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:15,519 couple of drinks, yeah, right again, are drunk humans still humans? 675 00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:20,280 Or like children? I don't know these questions right exactly, so, right 676 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,559 like, we can't decide the status, personhood, or worth of a human 677 00:54:23,559 --> 00:54:28,679 person based on their abilities or based on our perception of them, because that 678 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:34,960 perception will always change his technology improves, and the abilities of a given child 679 00:54:35,039 --> 00:54:38,519 or person, right like shouldn't determine their worth. My grandfather recently passed away, 680 00:54:39,599 --> 00:54:42,880 and for the last five years of his life, he had a really 681 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:49,239 severe form of dementia, and so he was losing the ability to do the 682 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,960 things that he had been able to do his entire life, except he like 683 00:54:52,199 --> 00:54:55,039 loved our daughter. And what was so funny is, in a lot of 684 00:54:55,039 --> 00:54:58,440 ways, my grandfather at the end of his life and my daughter at the 685 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,960 beginning of her life function and very similarly, right they were delighted and very 686 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:07,039 beautiful and simple ways they would communicate to the best of their ability, but 687 00:55:07,119 --> 00:55:12,440 a lot of the normal functions that we associate with an adult, right were 688 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,639 no longer present, and yet his life was no less worthy of protection. 689 00:55:16,599 --> 00:55:22,280 And I just think it's actually like very like retroactive or not retroactive. I 690 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,199 think it's just very like limited to assume that like simply because we do not 691 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,880 have like a good understanding of like the status of an embryo, that somehow 692 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,320 like this is the most progressive and enlightened stance, because every time we think 693 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,800 we've reached the most progressive way of looking at human life, we typically find 694 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,719 out that was actually like really eugenic and evil, right, Like sterilizing people 695 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,920 that we didn't think we're fit to have children in the twentieth century seemed really 696 00:55:45,079 --> 00:55:49,880 enlightened and seemed like a proper view of like the status of that human being. 697 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:52,880 Turns out we were actually just being really eugenic and racist and trying to 698 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,320 like literally remove a generation of people, right, a kind of people away. 699 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,639 We should not make the same mistake and apply that to embryos. I'll 700 00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:02,679 stop there. I think you get the idea of what I'm saying at this 701 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:07,480 point, but no, no, that's it's just incredibly helpful, Emma. 702 00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:12,800 And before we wrap, I know that you're not a campaign consultant, thankfully, 703 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,079 I don't know who would want that job. But you work at a 704 00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:19,679 nonprofit think tank, and yet you follows that you so closely that you know 705 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,400 I'm curious as to what you think a way that bridges the sort of moral 706 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:30,280 and political gap for not just conservatives but also liberals who will hopefully take an 707 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:35,039 interest in the question of moral clarity on this and maybe some feminists at some 708 00:56:35,079 --> 00:56:39,159 point, like they did with trans medicine and other issues, will come along 709 00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:43,280 for the ride. Who knows. So this wouldn't just in any way be 710 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,480 relegated on one side of the oler or the other. What is a way 711 00:56:45,639 --> 00:56:52,320 do you think, if there is, for lawmakers and anybody who's susceptible to 712 00:56:52,519 --> 00:56:57,480 the sort of whims of the electorate to talk about these things. Yeah, 713 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,960 this is a great question, and it is certainly something I'm happy to get 714 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:05,079 into more detail with individual people if they're thinking about these issues, interested in 715 00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:10,159 these issues from a legal policy perspective beyond the contours of this podcast. But 716 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,199 the first thing is that as we're thinking about this issue, our main focus 717 00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:22,119 is on protecting and empowering parents and their embryonic children from the abuses potential abuses 718 00:57:22,199 --> 00:57:28,000 of a largely unaccountable fertility industry. And we want to ensure that parents are 719 00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:31,880 empowered with legal recourse and rights so that when they entrust clinics with their embryonic 720 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:37,119 children that they can expect the highest standard of medical care from the fertility clinics, 721 00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:42,599 and that if a fertility clinics through neglect or carelessness fails in that they'll 722 00:57:42,639 --> 00:57:45,480 be held accountable as we do with the Department of Health when it comes to 723 00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:51,559 how fast food agents restaurants work in the United States. So when it comes 724 00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:53,760 to actual policies that we could keep in mind here that I think could apply 725 00:57:54,559 --> 00:58:00,639 and be desirable for a wide array of people are read that come to mind 726 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:07,679 that I am a big fan of. So the first is we should limit 727 00:58:07,719 --> 00:58:13,360 the number of embryos that we create in a single round of IVF. Germany, 728 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,000 for example, limits the number of embryos that are created in a single 729 00:58:16,079 --> 00:58:21,760 round of IVF to three. And then with those three embryos that are created, 730 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,000 the expectation is that you will transfer them into the woman and give them 731 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:30,280 a chance at life. So you can't transfer more than three embryos at one 732 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,920 time, and you can't create more than three embryos at one time. And 733 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:37,840 so what this does is it means that one parents will not find themselves in 734 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,360 this impossible situation where they're having to decide what to do with a surplus of 735 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:47,400 embryos. Two, if you are successful. Right with like the two children, 736 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:52,000 and you have one embryo leftover, you can decide what to do with 737 00:58:52,039 --> 00:58:55,920 one embryo, which is a much better decision to be making than like what 738 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,679 to do with ten unused embryos. Also limiting the number that we create. 739 00:59:02,199 --> 00:59:05,760 Yeah, so I think that's a really good starting point. Limited the number 740 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,679 we create. Germany limits it to three, Poland limits it to six embryos 741 00:59:08,719 --> 00:59:14,440 at a time. Italy's laws a little unclear exactly what they do, but 742 00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:19,840 it's around like three embryos at a time, and Italy actually generally says don't 743 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,360 freeze the embryos, but create and use them. So again, trying to 744 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:27,199 connect as much as possible that bond between marriage, sex, and procreation, 745 00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,320 because the more delays and degrees of separation you add between those things, the 746 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:36,639 more ethical questions and problems are inserted into it. So keep it as close 747 00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:42,280 together as possible. The second thing I would say is that official recommended guidelines 748 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:47,519 from the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, which unofficially regulates and guides the fertility 749 00:59:47,519 --> 00:59:54,000 industry in the United States, they recommend only transferring one embryo at a time 750 00:59:54,119 --> 01:00:00,760 into a woman's body. Sometimes they'll transfer three four five embryo and hopes that 751 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,599 one of them will actually implant to increase the success rate. What oftentimes happens 752 01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:08,440 then is that the woman can sees multiple children. Twins, triplets are higher. 753 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,880 When that happens, it's not only a high risk pregnancy for the mother, 754 01:00:13,039 --> 01:00:15,880 but it's also far less safe for the children involved, either because the 755 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:22,440 clinic will recommend selective reduction or the abortion of the additional children, or like 756 01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:27,559 just there's only so many nutrients that can go around. Sometimes like only some 757 01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:32,440 children actually survive a multiples pregnancy. So we should simply legally codify the recommended 758 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:36,840 guidelines that the American Society for Reproductive Medicine has limit the number that can be 759 01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:44,079 transferred. And the third thing that I would say is that we should promote 760 01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:52,480 access to natural restorative reproductive technology. So this is an in This is a 761 01:00:52,519 --> 01:00:59,440 form of medicine that focuses on diagnosing and treating the underlying conditions of infertility in 762 01:00:59,519 --> 01:01:06,039 women. Is anything from endometriosis, PCOS and hormonal imbalance, a hyperactive diorid, 763 01:01:07,239 --> 01:01:09,800 anything that could be causing stress on her body. And if you can 764 01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:15,719 actually target and then treat those underlying conditions, which in some cases can actually 765 01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,880 be rather straightforward, right like a simple surgery, outpatient surgery, that sort 766 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,719 of thing you enable her to naturally conceive men. On the other hand, 767 01:01:24,519 --> 01:01:30,960 commonly causes for infertility can be things like low sperm motility, low sperm count. 768 01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:36,519 And we found in a lot of studies pere viewed and IHR just generally 769 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:44,360 talked about and referenced that men can actually reverse infertility through environmental factors, targeted 770 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:51,440 diet, targeted exercise time in the sun. I'm not endorsing the bronch talk 771 01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:55,079 about these things right, getting into right, like cut the seed wills, 772 01:01:55,119 --> 01:01:59,360 get all the chemicals out of your house. Men can actually like reverse their 773 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:04,360 infertility like naturally. So I'll have to say, as we're talking about infertility, 774 01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,039 it should not simply be a conversation about IVF. But I would love 775 01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,679 to see lawmakers on the state and federal level then say, Okay, how 776 01:02:09,679 --> 01:02:15,559 can we promote access in the availability of these sorts of like in depth diagnostic 777 01:02:15,639 --> 01:02:21,760 testing to really figure out what the underlying causes of infertility are. And so 778 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,400 I think those three approaches limit the number that we transfer for the health of 779 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:30,239 the mother and the child involved, limit the number we create so as not 780 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:37,280 to a put parents in an a possible situation be you're actually protecting clinics from 781 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,000 having to protect embryos for decades at a time. Right, this cuts down 782 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:45,119 on the surplus. And then three, we need to encourage and promote access 783 01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:52,639 to these restorative reproductive technologies as a first course of action in our pursuit of 784 01:02:52,679 --> 01:03:00,880 healing infertility. Em this has been beyond fascinating and you have so generous with 785 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,880 your time. I just want to thank you for all your work on this 786 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,840 issue, and thank you for coming on the show in the middle of what 787 01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:13,239 has to be one of the busiest months probably of your whole career at this 788 01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,079 point. Yeah, it's been so great, but Emily, thank you. 789 01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:19,800 I always enjoy chatting with you, of course. And Emma, you've written 790 01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,199 for The Federalist a few times, haven't you. I have mostly on SURC 791 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:28,800 and Chinese nationals, so a little If anyone's interested, yes, go check 792 01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,320 out Emma's work. Follow her on Twitter again. She's a senior research associate 793 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:35,480 in the Richard and Helen Devas Center for Life, Religion, and Family at 794 01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:39,480 the Heritage Foundation. Thanks again, Emma. Thanks you've been listening to another 795 01:03:39,599 --> 01:03:43,679 edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, culture editor here at 796 01:03:43,719 --> 01:03:45,679 the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers 797 01:03:45,719 --> 01:03:59,079 of freedom and anxious for the first right.