WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.160 Greetings, fellow seekers of the unknown. It's Brian and I'm here today to 2 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:08.119 share something truly extraordinary with all of you. As you know, my journey 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:12.000 to uncover the truth of all things strange has taken me on a wild ride 4 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.760 filled with incredible experiences and encounters with the unseen. And today I want to 5 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.480 share that journey with all of you by introducing you to Hanger one Publishing. 6 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:25.640 Hanger one Publishing is the premier destination for books on all things strange and mysterious, 7 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:30.079 from Bigfoot to cryptids, UFOs and the paranormal. 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So what are you 32 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:19.080 waiting for? Visit Hanger one Publishing dot com today and let the journey begin. 33 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.240 Now. I know what your reporting. I got a strain of going 34 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.199 on here. Something just killing my dog. Something killed your dog, my 35 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:29.039 dog. We're flying to or over the trade. I don't know how it 36 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:34.439 did it? Okay, dam and I'm really confused. Also, I thought 37 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.000 my dog coming over the fen, and they would have did when you hit 38 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:38.919 the growler. I entertaining cards And although I thought it was my dog coming 39 00:02:38.960 --> 00:03:00.479 over the fen, what are you reporting? We gotta some one or something 40 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:13.120 crawling around out here? Did you see what it was? I here looking 41 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:15.319 up new the window now, and I don't need anything. I don't want 42 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:23.039 to go out right? Great, ready, Hello, get somebody out here. 43 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:27.800 Let's goin on outa's thought up a bit about second four nine. I 44 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.840 don't know he's out. Yeah, I'm brooking right, heady. Her folks 45 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.439 want to welcome my guests back to the show. It is friend of the 46 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:37.479 show, Jeff Harding from Pineland Research. Welcome to the show. Jeff, 47 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.919 Hey, Brian, thank you. I am glad to have you man. 48 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:43.919 So let's get right into it. Some people have heard you on the show 49 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.039 before. Gosh, I think we were talking just a few minutes ago. 50 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:49.000 It's probably two years ago. You came on and shared your encounter for the 51 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:52.319 first time. Let's start there. Let's there's a lot we're gonna talk about 52 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.080 today, but let's start there with your encounter. So refreshing everybody's memory about 53 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:58.680 where you were, what you were doing, and what happened during your first 54 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:01.639 encounter with one of these things. Well, I was back in nineteen eighty 55 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:06.240 seven. I was eighteen years old, just graduating from high school, had 56 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:11.680 joined the army, but hadn't left yet. Had a couple of months I 57 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.439 was going to leave midsummer to go to basic training. And I grew up 58 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.319 the son of a hunting and fishing guide and spent an awful lot of time 59 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:25.199 in the outdoors, hunting big game and really getting to fish a lot of 60 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:29.920 different parts of the northern part of the country, and then quite a bit 61 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:34.360 in Canada. And a friend of mine, whose dad had a similar occupation 62 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:40.000 as mine, was getting ready to go on a trip with his family. 63 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.240 His dad, a couple uncles, a bunch of cousins, his little brother, 64 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:50.399 and they invited me to come with them, and I agreed, and 65 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:56.720 during this ten day outing up in northern Manitoba and a very remote part of 66 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.040 the Churchill River system on Granville Lake. It's a large lake that's covered in 67 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:06.120 islands, but I mean it's really remote. There's no cabins on this lake. 68 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:14.800 It's a primitive camp that these three Inuit brothers run primarily for guiding hunters. 69 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:19.160 But they had known these brothers, had known my friend's dad and invited 70 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:24.079 him to bring his family up, and so I just kind of ended up 71 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.399 tagging along on this trip. And me and my friend, who is the 72 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.360 same age as me, just graduated, and his little brother, who were 73 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:39.079 fourteen, would go out each day in a sixteen foot long boat and fish, 74 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:42.759 you know, until midday, and come back to this camp, and 75 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.120 then we'd go out in the afternoon and fish a little bit more. And 76 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:50.519 on the fourth day that we were there, we ended up on an island 77 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:56.199 on this lake, a small island. My friend's little brother had to take 78 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.439 a leak, and so we pulled up on shore and I had locked up 79 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.040 this game trail. It was quite elevated for such a small island, a 80 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:12.600 very heavily forced and I ended up having an encounter. And I had never 81 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.439 grown up in a family where, you know, he had an uncle that 82 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.759 told these stories around the campfire of seeing a bigfoot. I didn't really have 83 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:27.199 any reference for what bigfoot would be, you know, So it was it 84 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:34.959 was pretty perplexing, not only trying to go through analyzing the experience shortly afterwards, 85 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:41.680 but spending quite a bit of time afterwards for years trying to really get 86 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:46.720 answers that I didn't feel comfortable asking other people. Was in the military for 87 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.639 a number of years, never found an opportunity. I had a security clearance 88 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:57.439 in the military, was worried that if I even talked to somebody about bigfoot, 89 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.160 they'd pull that from me. Got out of the military and went to 90 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.879 college and never really met anybody in college that had had experiences or felt comfortable 91 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:12.319 talking to about it. And then started a career where I worked in real 92 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.439 estate and real estate development and had a lot of partners that I worked with, 93 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:20.800 investors, that they were my living I mean, that's how I made 94 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:25.680 my money, and I just I felt like if there was the risk versus 95 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:29.959 reward was pretty high if one of them was to decide not to do business 96 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.079 with me for some reason. And so I spent a lot, awful lot 97 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:40.480 of time thinking about it, but not really being able to talk to other 98 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:45.759 people who had had similar experiences. Never found people who had had similar experiences. 99 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:50.639 But when I turned you know, when I was approaching fifty years old, 100 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:56.079 which is about four years ago, I do a lot of guiding yet 101 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:01.560 guiding hunters, and I have a network of almost a hundred guides that I 102 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.279 worked with around the country in Canada, and I had a conversation with a 103 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:11.199 couple of them who have had I wouldn't say encounters like mine, but certainly 104 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:16.240 have had things happen in remote areas that they couldn't come up with a natural 105 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:22.519 explanation to and ended up in northern Minnesota, where my lake home is. 106 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:28.519 I got close to Doug Hicheck and shared with him what had happened, and 107 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.120 he's the one who really got me involved in the research of it. I 108 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:39.559 had wanted to go out and try to do some things differently than other people 109 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.200 were doing trying to get answers. And I thought that I had a good 110 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:48.159 plan, and then you purge that plan against somebody like Doug and you realize 111 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:54.399 there's a few holes in it. And just we spent months and months really 112 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.480 going over what my research plan was going to be in how I wanted to 113 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.440 approach should and he was a big help with that. Well, it's one 114 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.120 of the things I see on the show often. It happens with people who 115 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.519 have encounters, and you had a very close up, what I would consider 116 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.600 to be a very traumatic experience with one of these things, and that tends 117 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.600 to push people even further in the other direction. But for you, I 118 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.320 think it's pushed you to want to find out more answers and find out what 119 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:22.799 these things are and do the research. So I certainly want to get into 120 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.000 that. Let's talk a little bit about what was your approach going into the 121 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:31.840 research. Was it to have another experience, was it to document evidence, 122 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.480 was it to get photographs or videos? What was your approach to it, 123 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.840 and when Doug started poking holes in your plan, what did it ultimately look 124 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.080 like for you once you went out and started the research well, I had 125 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:48.440 originally looked at what everybody else is doing, and I had kind of arrived 126 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.600 at the conclusion that, you know, since the Patterson Gimlin film, the 127 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.120 ball is left kind of on the five yard line and it hasn't gained any 128 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:01.440 field positions since. I mean, last thing I wanted to do was go 129 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.039 out and start repeating the same things over and over that didn't seem to be 130 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.440 making any headway. So I felt that if we're looking at this from a 131 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:16.120 flesh and blood standpoint, its weakest link would likely be its curiosity. If 132 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.080 you could figure out a way to not appear to be a threat. You 133 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:26.120 didn't go out there trying to you know, carrying cameras or anything like that, 134 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:31.320 or trying to bang on trees or speak a language that you don't know 135 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.159 how to speak. I didn't want to do anything that it would consider to 136 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:43.720 be threatening in nature. I just wanted to try to collect or let's say, 137 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.679 I wanted to try to promote interaction with items that would be left that 138 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:54.080 could collect DNA, whether it was hair or skin, oil samples, fingerprints, 139 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.679 things like that, you know, like, for instance, I rid 140 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.559 and I started thinking about camera apps and things like that. But through my 141 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.759 conversations with Doug, I mean, it really made me realize that, you 142 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:11.559 know, there's a lot of opinions and hypothesis out there on what Bigfoot is 143 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:16.039 capable of and what it isn't capable of, but there's really no facts that 144 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:20.480 we're operating on. And so can it sense an I R flash? Can 145 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:26.559 it sense a UV coding on a camera lens? Does that reflect from a 146 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:33.279 ways away with a UV vision spectrum? Can it sense battery presence? I 147 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.000 mean, in the end, me and Doug kind of arrived to who knows. 148 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.519 Nobody knows these answers. Everybody talks about some of them even talk about 149 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:46.159 it pretty matter of fact, Lee like, they can tell this, they 150 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.960 can sense that. I don't know that they can do any of that. 151 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:54.919 And we kind of felt like if we let's not bring anything into the field 152 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:01.279 that we aren't sure of what it's capable of detecting them what it isn't you 153 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:07.159 know? And so that was kind of the m O. As I had 154 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.120 been looking at a certain area at the time, I wouldn't talk about it. 155 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.399 Now I've talked about it about where it was. It was on the 156 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:24.279 southwest corner of the Pine Island Forest in northern Minnesota on the Clearwater River that 157 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.559 flows south out of Clearwater Lake. It's just south of the Red Lake Indian 158 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:35.399 Reservation. And would kayak eight and a half miles from the launch point up 159 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:43.600 the Clearwater River to a clearing and then leave items there. I'd kayak in 160 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.440 on a Thursday and leave items, and I'd kayak back out, and then 161 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.840 the next day on Friday, I had kayak in and collect them and kayak 162 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:56.799 back out and wait a week and do it again. And it's kind of 163 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.000 designed so that I don't know if anything there habit tates there, but you 164 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:07.039 would become part of a routine, so to speak. Maybe they habitate twenty 165 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:11.480 miles away, but if they knew every Thursday these things are being left and 166 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:16.240 every Friday they're being picked up, maybe you could become part of a routine 167 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.399 for this. And the way that I arrived at using that clearing was when 168 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.799 everything was froze over. I was snow wheeling up into that area looking at 169 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:31.799 different clearings and had mapped out about six or seven different clearings all along the 170 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:37.919 Clearwater River. I had picked that area vaguely overall because in the last eighteen 171 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:43.559 months, there had been three sightings by a place called Debs, Minnesota. 172 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.360 Very I don't even know if you'd call it a town. It's like an 173 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:52.240 intersection, right, but Debs, Minnesota kind of became locally famous there. 174 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.440 I mean, there was three or four different properties all within a three mile 175 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:03.240 area where these counters had been coming in from. And I didn't know if 176 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.519 it was a place where they habituated her, if they were just crossing through 177 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:15.039 that area or what. But it was located kind of between the Itasca State 178 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:22.120 Forest and the Pine Islands State Forest and the Red Lake Indian Reservation bordered it, 179 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.559 and it just it kind of seemed like this perfect storm of a river 180 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.039 flowing through it. It was very remote. There really wasn't any read even 181 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:35.480 in the height of tourist seasons, so to speak, that nobody would really 182 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.879 be there. There weren't hiking trails going through it. And so I had 183 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:45.480 came up with this idea that I would go into these areas and bring a 184 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:50.240 rubber ball. It was as simple as that. I brought in a rubber 185 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.679 ball that you'd buy at Walmart for a buck ninety nine. It was about 186 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:58.240 fifteen inches round and I would go out to these clearings and I would kick 187 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.879 it, and I'd run after it and pick it up and laugh at it. 188 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:05.039 And i'd throw it and run after it and pick it up and laugh 189 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.559 at it. And I'd do that for about forty five minutes, and I 190 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.480 would leave it in the And this is this is a very heavily forested area. 191 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.960 And these clearings were, you know, roughly the size of half of 192 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.799 a football field to a whole football field, kind of just areas where there 193 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:26.000 was an open area. And I always operated under the idea that something's watching 194 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:33.600 me and watching me interact with this thing, this ball, and I'd leave 195 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.679 it, and i'd go back the next day and pick it up and see 196 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.759 if it had been moved. And I did this over and over and over, 197 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.639 and finally the sixth clearing that I was in, this ball got moved 198 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.480 like eighty five yards. And came to the conclusion that it had a bear 199 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.039 moved it or something, you know. Put it. First of all, 200 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:58.879 this this is really a soft rubber ball. I mean, a bear press 201 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.919 down with it with its fall would puncture it. And if it had been 202 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:07.360 moved five or ten yards, I probably wouldn't be able to look at that 203 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.200 as realistic data, because I mean a deer could nuzzle it and move it 204 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:17.080 five or ten yards, but when it was moved all the way across the 205 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.080 clearing, it felt like something picked this thing up and moved it or kicked 206 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:26.720 it or something. It wasn't just a small interaction with it, you know, 207 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.639 by a wild animal. So and I didn't think it was likely that 208 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.799 it was a human. I mean, all these times I've been kayaking in 209 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.279 it's there, I never saw another human on that river. It's not to 210 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.559 say they wouldn't be there, but I just it just wasn't heavily traveled, 211 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.200 pretty remote. So once up Ball got moved, I kind of had an 212 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:51.200 idea of where I wanted to use, which clearing I wanted to use to 213 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.720 try to start doing these things, and we would leave different things in that 214 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:03.320 clearing in hopes of creating that carry. When I left it had a twenty 215 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.799 four hour window, it just looked like this guy came in and was having 216 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.680 fun with something or interacting with something, and he was so stupid that he'd 217 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.440 forget to take it out with him and leave it there. And eventually we 218 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:19.440 started getting things moved and started getting skin oil smudges on stuff. The ball. 219 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:25.920 We started putting velcro tabs on and collecting hair samples in and you know, 220 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.599 they were seven to ten inch long, translucent hair samples that just didn't 221 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:37.599 seem like they would be bare or deer. And over thirty seven weeks we 222 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:45.240 collected I think it was twenty one hair samples and thirteen skin oil samples or 223 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.000 smudges. And those were all on different items. Some of them were little 224 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:53.200 baby food jars. I would leave pieces of candy, that bit o honey 225 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.160 candy, you know, I bought a gigantic pack of it, and the 226 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:03.160 little just the little pieces that were wrapped in that wax paper. I would 227 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.640 unwrap those and leave them there, and you know, they'd be gone. 228 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.200 And I asked, I told Dungas, what do you think's eating them? 229 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:11.279 And he says, well, jeez, it could be bears, could be 230 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.200 squirrels, could be anything, he says, put it in a baby food 231 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:19.000 jar and screw the lid on. And this is you know, I'd already 232 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.799 had them being taken like three or four times. So put it in a 233 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.640 baby food jar. And when I went back the next time, the baby 234 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:32.759 food jar had been opened and it was gone, so you know, it 235 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:37.480 was just interesting all the different things that would get interacted with. Doug was 236 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:44.359 heavily into bear research and felt that if bears could see any UV vision spectrum, 237 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.200 which he suspected they could, like cariboo and a few other animals that 238 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:53.559 sciences documented as being able to do that, that different colors might appear different 239 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.160 to them. You know, to us, maybe we described the most vivid 240 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:03.599 colors being yellow or red, maybe to them it's blue or purple. You 241 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.480 know, it's just it's different in a different UV vision spectrum. And it 242 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:12.960 seemed like blue was a color that he saw getting interacted with in these bare 243 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:18.079 studies. He was the first one to record beare birth in a den, 244 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:23.279 you know, and he had these camera traps set up in bare dens and 245 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:30.400 he was finding all kinds of blue garbage in the blue bottle caps, blue 246 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:34.480 Jasani water bottles chewed up. I mean, for some reason, they really 247 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:41.519 keyed on that color, and so we just decided, let's kind of make 248 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:45.680 that a theme and some of the things that we're leaving, Like I took 249 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:52.720 a game camera painted the entire thing fluorescent blue other than the black velcro strap 250 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.480 on it, and I never took it out there and hooked it up to 251 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:00.759 a tree or anything. I took the batteries out of it so it wouldn't 252 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:06.799 be powered up, it wouldn't have any signal. I painted over that lens 253 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.279 so that there was no UV reflection of the camera lens if there was a 254 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:17.119 coating on it, and brought it out there and left it just laying on 255 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:22.119 the ground and went back and it had been moved like six fifteen to twenty 256 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.480 yards from where I left it lane. Now that's not saying something couldn't have 257 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:34.119 you picked it up and just in its mouth and dropped it. But you 258 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.039 know, there's a lot of things that we were leaving that I was leaving 259 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:45.279 that you could say on its own being moved. Maybe a bear could have 260 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.000 done it, you know, But when you started looking at the collective of 261 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.599 everything that was getting one time, that camera wasn't just moved. I came 262 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.559 back in twenty five thirty yards away, it's hanging from a tree branch by 263 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:02.119 the strap, just hanging there. Something picked it up and hung it off 264 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.880 of that brand And you know, it was just little interactions like that that 265 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:12.559 made me think This isn't normal bare behavior. This doesn't seem to be something 266 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:17.640 that deer would do. So, yeah, it was interesting. I write 267 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.480 a lot about that in the book on some of the things that I experienced 268 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.319 kayaking into the area. Both things that are that seem to have, you 269 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:33.440 know, some some support that there, that bigfoot is there. But a 270 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.640 lot of the things I experienced were natural things too, like interaction with a 271 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.279 lynx in that area. It was kayaking up before the sun came up one 272 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.519 morning, and a lynx was standing right on the edge of the river and 273 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:52.839 just let out the most moaning scream. It's the most horrible thing I've ever 274 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.759 heard. And you know, when you're by yourself in a kayak at five 275 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:00.519 thirty in the morning, I mean you levitate about five feet out of it 276 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:04.279 when you hear that. So you were having all these things going on, 277 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:08.119 and I'm writing down notes as you're talking, and one of the first things 278 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.400 that comes to mind, I guess for most people is I know the reason 279 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.200 you were doing what you were doing, But once you started getting some kind 280 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.319 of activity, most people go to, why didn't you just take a camera 281 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.880 and pointed in the general direction of what was picking these things up and moving 282 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:23.880 them, because that's one of the things that I've experienced here on the property 283 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.000 with possible gifting and things like that. I want to get into. But 284 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.039 that's the first thing people ask me. Why didn't you have a camera? 285 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.759 Well, because most people told me, don't put a camera. If it's 286 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.440 a gifting situation, they're not going to take it. Or again those definitives 287 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:38.640 right, Well, if there's a camera, we know they're not gonna take 288 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.640 it. Well, nobody knows anything really, so I guess that's the question 289 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.359 for you. Did that ever cross your mind? Did you and Doug talk 290 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.599 about possibly once you were getting some activity, putting a camera up to maybe 291 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.440 catch up shot of something that was moving these things. Stay tuned for more 292 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:59.880 sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back after these messages. It was. 293 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.200 It's really designed to end in that with that being the case, I 294 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:11.880 mean, if I could keep coming in there alone, developing a trust to 295 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.400 where I never from where I would pull my kayak up. When I arrived 296 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.319 at this clearing, I had to hike about three quarters of a mile through 297 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.440 the woods to get back to where the clearing was. You know, it 298 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:27.599 was mostly dark when I would arrive early in the mornings. Sometimes I would 299 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:32.160 start a little bit later and show up just after. You know, i'd 300 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.400 kayak most of the way. It was about an hour and a half two 301 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.920 hours to kayak up that far, and you know, i'd start in the 302 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.240 dark. Sometimes it'd be light by the time I get there, just dependent 303 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:47.480 on how early I got to the launch site. But walking that three quarters 304 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:52.400 of a mile with no flashlight when it was dark was really kind of a 305 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.640 surreal experience. I mean, the one thing that me and Doug had talked 306 00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:04.000 about was conditioning my self not to respond if I heard a tree knock or 307 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:10.319 a vocalization or something like. I didn't want to stand there scanning the tree 308 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.119 line making this thing feel like, oh it sees me. I wanted it 309 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.359 rather to say I don't get why he didn't hear that, and maybe it 310 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:21.440 would knock again, or maybe it would step it up, you know. 311 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.079 And so that was one of the reasons why I never took a flashlight. 312 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:30.720 My cell phone and my flaircy five always stayed in the kayak when I left 313 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:36.000 the kayak and walked back to the area. Never any of the things we 314 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.839 left were battery operated or had he gave off any signal. But the whole 315 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:47.880 thing was designed so that if this kept interacting, and things kept getting moved 316 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.799 or getting picked up, then it would end. At the very end of 317 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:59.000 it, you know, that first or second week in November, I would 318 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:03.200 go in and bring a ball that was basically not the rubber ball that it 319 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:10.039 had been interacting or moving. That would be a foam ball that had four 320 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.160 lipstick size cameras in it with a lithium battery pack in it, and then 321 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:21.920 we'd plastic coat the ball set it down out there so that if it was 322 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.880 to walk across into that clearing after I left and walk up to that ball, 323 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.480 at some point it may stop and say it sense there's a battery presence 324 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.359 or there's something weird about this, but it would be too late. It 325 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:38.000 would already be on camera, you know, And so it was kind of 326 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.400 designed to be this ultimate betrayal, so to speak, that it would you 327 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.200 know, we never really were a threat the whole time, but in the 328 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:49.000 end it would be designed that cameras and audio recorders and all that would be 329 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.640 out there. But there was a pretty weird ending to the whole thing, 330 00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:00.400 to where and people will learn why it didn't. We I was success asshole 331 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.799 and collecting items in which we could put into samples that we could put into 332 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:10.440 the lab. But I was not successful with the camera part of the end 333 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:15.720 of that project because there had been It's really a peculiar thing that happened to 334 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:22.799 that clearing the week before I went in to leave those and I write about 335 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:26.039 it in the book. I talk about it in when I share the encounters. 336 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.680 But when I was walking back to clearing, I could smell when I 337 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:37.240 thought smelled like ammonia. It smelled like your lawn after Kimlon comes in sprays, 338 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.240 you know. And I got back into clearing. That clearing was about 339 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:48.599 eighty five to ninety yards long and about seventy yards wide. It was kind 340 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.920 of an oval shape or an egg shape, and there was grass, prairie 341 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.559 grass in it that was, you know, three foot tall two foot tall, 342 00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.359 and there was some cedar scrubs here and never for them. All part 343 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.400 it was open. But I walked around the whole edge that clearing, it 344 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:07.680 smelled like that all over, like the whole thing had been sprayed. And 345 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:12.079 that just seemed peculiar to me because I on my way back out of there. 346 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.759 I stopped at two of the other clearings that I had done the ball 347 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:21.240 test and prior, and I didn't smell anything there. I could see where 348 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.559 if they all smelt like that, maybe the DNR or somebody came in and 349 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:30.640 sprayed those just for noxious weeds or whatever. But I mean, I didn't 350 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.519 notice that anywhere else. But that smell made me believe that nothing was going 351 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:40.759 to happen after that, And nothing did happen after that in any of the 352 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:42.920 For two more weeks, I kept going in there and there was no more 353 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.359 interaction. So it's just kind of a question mark of what the heck happened 354 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.440 there. You know, it seems very odd that the DNR would go to 355 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.519 that link to go somewhere out in the middle of nowhere to spray a field 356 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.119 for whatever reason. It just doesn't make anything to me. You mentioned the 357 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.640 samples a couple of times. Is that something that's still in the process of 358 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.839 being dealt with. Do you think there's some Bible samples that you guys are 359 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.000 maybe looking to get tested. What's the deal with the samples? Well, 360 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.640 I've got I've got the hair samples and the skin oil samples are are testable, 361 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:21.200 they're they're they're ready to be tested. I don't know if that's something 362 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:26.000 that will do with LMS two or if that's something where I'm going to have 363 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:34.480 them tested with the samples I collect in this upcoming project. There's the difference 364 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:41.200 being I've got a partnership with two different universities in this upcoming project so far. 365 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.200 I'm trying to make it three, but two of them so far, 366 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.400 and it's designed the way that I really felt would be the most protective way 367 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:59.160 to keep the integrity of something like that intact. That's that both of these 368 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:04.000 universities would be testing samples independent from each other. They don't even know who 369 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.160 each other are. I've never I've met with one, I've met with the 370 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:12.039 other. I've never had meetings with everybody in the same room. I don't 371 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:18.000 want there to be a biased angle at it. I don't I want whatever 372 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:23.319 one lab comes up with results to stand on its own and be compared to 373 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.480 the results that come up in another lab. And I think, you know, 374 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:33.279 just looking back at some of the other DNA efforts that there have been, 375 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.160 I think we can learn from those mistakes, you know, And so 376 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.640 that's kind of I think the perfect storm of how to do it, but 377 00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:48.160 I would be really interested in finding out what those labs test these samples at 378 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.519 two. And the problem with testing a hair samples once you test it in 379 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.279 one lab, you aren't going to test it again after that. So you 380 00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:00.519 know, I'm a little bit up in the air as far as whether or 381 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:06.759 not it happens with the upcoming samples and the partnerships that the nice thing about 382 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:11.240 the project that I'm going to be doing this is done with scientists that are 383 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:18.240 connected to the labs that they have no there is no bias involved here. 384 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.759 I don't come to them writing a check saying I'm looking for evidence of bigfoot, 385 00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:29.000 and right away the Water's team, okay, this is if we were 386 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.400 to take ten thousand vector collected samples and test them all, and there's every 387 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:40.279 vertebrate mammal in these areas that we're pulling these samples out of our being represented 388 00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:45.799 in all of these samples, but we have no sample of a part human, 389 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.000 part unknown primate. If they want to put a thumbs down to the 390 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:53.960 existence of the likelihood of the existence based on what they're seeing these samples, 391 00:30:55.039 --> 00:31:00.160 I encourage them to do so. Despite what my experience has been in my 392 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.720 life. I'm not going to stop them from doing that. So finding these 393 00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:07.759 labs that will come that look at this and say, you know what this 394 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.480 is going on long enough, we want to play a part in putting a 395 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.359 thumbs up and thumbs down to this, But we don't want to be pressured 396 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.559 to go either way. We want to follow the data, right. I 397 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:21.519 think when you approach science that way, you'd be surprised at how many universities 398 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:23.559 and stuff would get in line and say we'll be a part of that. 399 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.039 And that's been my experience talking to the two that I have. I mean, 400 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:33.440 these two were related to the study I write at length in the book 401 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:38.119 about a particular study that these that one of these universities was doing with a 402 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:47.160 bio hub with scientists from Sweden, all through two different areas in northern California, 403 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:55.720 testing vertebrate mammals based on collecting the mosquitoes and testing the ones that have 404 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.960 had a blood meal off of a blood host in the last twenty four hours. 405 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.720 They would test that and see what was it that it fed on, 406 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:10.039 and then it would test what viruses does that animal have? And they were 407 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:15.319 looking at kind of mosquito bite of mule deer that has a virus, and 408 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:20.200 then later on bite of fox and transfer that virus to that fox. That's 409 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.759 what that study was designed to do. But when you look at the techniques 410 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.720 they did and the science they applied, you realize this is exactly what we 411 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:35.440 This can be done. You can collect a thousand mosquitoes in an hour at 412 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:42.000 two am in Saskatchewan, and you can collect them in Washington State, Alaska. 413 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.480 You'd want to be places that are very remote, so you're not going 414 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:51.759 to get human samples in these things, but you could test them in three 415 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:57.640 or four different geographical areas and start running all these tests on these samples. 416 00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:02.079 And if you're showing every verte braid mammal out there, from bears to gophers 417 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:08.079 to squirrels and rabbits and everything in between, but you go ten thousand times 418 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:12.519 and we haven't found a bigfoot sample. If they want to say we just 419 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:15.839 don't think it's likely they exist based on that, I'm ok with them saying 420 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:20.920 that. So that's kind of where it's designed to go. I would like 421 00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:24.720 to have the samples that I got, the hair samples, which you know, 422 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:29.880 I'm not positive. These are bigfoot hair samples that I collected. When 423 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:34.079 I look at them under a microscope and when I compare them to other vertebrate 424 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.519 mammals in northern Minnesota in that area, I don't see anything that they could 425 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:45.440 be if it's not that or human. But like I say, I never 426 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:52.119 had any human interaction in thirty seven weeks in that research area. So I 427 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:53.599 want to talk a little bit about the sea bum before we move on. 428 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:58.319 Doug has talked about sebum, and we've talked about it on and off the 429 00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:01.039 air before. When you would get these samples off of the objects, I 430 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:06.000 assume most of it came off with the bouncy ball. Were you actually seeing 431 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.519 fingerprints that had the sea bum in it or were you just scraping? How 432 00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:15.440 are you collecting those samples? Yeah, I posted some pictures on a couple 433 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.639 of videos that I did that we'll show on the ball. It look it 434 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:24.280 looks like a print that almost looks like a j that I believe is the 435 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:30.519 outside edge going down the hand and around the palm. It's it was like 436 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.320 if it was laying like let me see it like that on a surface, 437 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.719 and it's you you can see where the a finger would bend in each one. 438 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.599 You know. The only issues that I had was in the dog days 439 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.599 of summer, whenever there be a I always had collected more smears than prints. 440 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.079 And I think the reason for that being is when you pick up a 441 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.800 ball like that, I don't know that you cure it in your fingertips out 442 00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:01.199 in front of your body, just put it under an arm while you're walking. 443 00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:07.519 So when there was a fingerprint, there's so many fine line swipes like 444 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:12.599 a paintbrush looking through that almost like hair's laying against it and pulled off of 445 00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.119 it, and you know that which could have originally been a fingerprint. But 446 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.559 then all of a sudden it gets an arm pressed against it or something who 447 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.320 knows, you know, I'm just speculating on that. But when I would 448 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.920 collect it, it was hard to get it off of the ball. I 449 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.760 mean you would have to spray it with four or nine scrub it off. 450 00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.400 I would use bleach to clean it off then and sterilize the ball after that 451 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:45.960 before I used it again. But this stuff was like half hardened candle wax, 452 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:50.400 like if you dripped hot wax off of a candle when it's almost set 453 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:54.199 up, but not but still a little bit pliable. A thin layer of 454 00:35:54.360 --> 00:36:00.480 that is what it seems like. It doesn't seem like oil to speed. 455 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:06.239 But if I'd go out there on the Friday to pick stuff up, and 456 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.920 I would show up mid day in the dog days of summer, and sometimes 457 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:15.360 it would be ninety degrees or warmer when I'd go out there, those were 458 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:22.960 really clear and thin, like maybe the sunshine had kind of smoothed them out 459 00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:29.159 and liquefied them a little bit more, whereas the samples earlier in the spring 460 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:34.360 and late in the summer and fall were you could touch them and it was 461 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:39.079 like hard frosting, you know, like a thin micro layer of something on 462 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:44.000 it. So, I you know, as far as comparing it to a 463 00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.639 substance other than a very very micro thin layer of candle wax, I don't 464 00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:52.599 really know what you would compare it to, because referring to it as as 465 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:58.920 sea bum or skin oil is a little bit deceptive if you're not used to 466 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.239 seeing what prime mate skin oil looks like. If you ever go to a 467 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:07.800 zoo and look at a gorilla, they get balls of wax built up in 468 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:13.320 their armpits like the size of a baseball. I mean, it's hard wax, 469 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:20.280 that's just that secretion of that type of skin oil. So it's a 470 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.119 lot different than what humans would have. It's definitely interesting, and I know 471 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:29.000 one of the other things that you address in the book is sort of what's 472 00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:31.519 always a topic of conversation on my show and certainly your show and other shows 473 00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:37.199 like this. It's just the what's going on in research in general these days? 474 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:43.239 In sasquatchery, right, there's all kinds of ramp a room tomfoolery going 475 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.360 on. Anytime you want to get on and see some of the crazy stuff 476 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:47.920 happening in the community, all you got to do is look online. It 477 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.519 happened to me recently. Something popped up after the OCALA conference and David Polites 478 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:58.559 and Jeff Meldrum are arguing on stage over DNA and people are messaging me, 479 00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:00.480 hey, did you see this? And I'm you know, I'm not even 480 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:04.280 going to get into that. I find it amusing in some ways, but 481 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.440 a lot of ways it's really not. There's so much there's a whole lot 482 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:13.199 of different thought processes that go on in bigfoot research, and everybody is entitled 483 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.320 to their opinion because literally everything about the subject is subjective for the most part, 484 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:21.920 unless you're an anthropologist like Jeff Meldrum, and you can talk specifically about 485 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.199 foot morphology and those kind of things. But I know you sort of address 486 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:28.079 that in the book. So can you talk about what people can expect to 487 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:31.239 see when you start talking about just sasquatchery in general as it stands? Now? 488 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:36.840 Well, I've said on my show for you know, at least a 489 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:42.480 year and a half now that instead of us finding the ninety percent that we 490 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:47.039 agree on as fellow researchers from people who are out in the field, instead 491 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.800 we find the ten percent we disagree on and we poison each other with it. 492 00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:54.639 And for some reason that's been the case for a long time. I 493 00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:00.360 mean, I have had a chance to talk to different people who have reviewed 494 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:04.920 and interacted in Thomas Steinberg, who was you know, he knew the original 495 00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:09.400 four Horsemen, A lot of these old school, original gangsters from the community, 496 00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:14.559 right, and all of them had little issues with each other, a 497 00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.960 lot of them. Did you know? Thomas had an interesting approach whenever somebody 498 00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:22.000 would ask him about, well, what can you tell me about what that 499 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.599 person said about something, He'd say, I'm not going to tell you anything 500 00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:29.079 about what anybody said, just like if any of them asked me, I'm 501 00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:34.960 never going to tell them what you said. Thomas really had a vision for 502 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:42.760 the division that could surface amongst different people's ideas and opinions, and he felt 503 00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:46.760 the best way to play that would be to be the human version of the 504 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:52.119 Continental Hotel in john Wick. You know, this is a safe place, 505 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.599 right And it's interesting because he because he did that, he ended people were 506 00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.360 very open with him. But they just were able to do that with each 507 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:06.679 other a lot of times, because you know, this mentality that seems to 508 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:10.119 exist. I don't believe that I have to like somebody or be a fan 509 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:15.239 of thirs to be able to learn something from them. And since there's no 510 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:23.039 universities handing out degrees in bigfootology, we're all the students and we're all the 511 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:29.760 professors. We learn from each other. And with that in mind, you 512 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:36.480 have to focus on that which you agree upon instead of being getting fixated on 513 00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:42.400 these little differences that we have with our hypothesis and stuff. But it just 514 00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:46.280 seems like that's that's just one of those deals that's this looms in this community 515 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.639 and probably always will, you know, Yeah, I definitely agree, and 516 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.000 I think that's a very good analogy for Thomas. He's navigated those waters for 517 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:59.599 decades and decades and done a very good job of it. It just really 518 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.639 there's me to go to conferences. Obviously I wasn't at the OCALLA conference, 519 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.960 but for people to see what they believe to be these experts in the field 520 00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:13.320 arguing amongst themselves about things that just really, in the end of the day, 521 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:16.360 they don't matter. So I really wish that everybody could sort of take 522 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:20.760 a little bit of sampling from what Thomas has been able to do all of 523 00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:23.519 these years. Why can't we just have that mentality in this community? But 524 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:27.159 it's like everything else. I think if you put more than two people in 525 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.079 a room, there's always going to be disagreements. Have you addressed? Or 526 00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:34.199 what is your thing? Because I'm working on a show now because this has 527 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:37.760 come up a couple of times for me, is the mental health part of 528 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:44.760 bigfoot and bigfoot encounters in general, right, mass hallucinations and mass hysteria and 529 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.239 other things that people attribute to some of the things, like we collect bigfoot 530 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:51.360 encounters on both of our shows, and that's something that's come up recently. 531 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:53.719 I interviewed a guy a couple of weeks ago. I was going to actually 532 00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:58.280 reach out to you and a couple of other people privately and have a conversation 533 00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:00.559 about whether I should even air of the show because it's one of the most 534 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:06.760 out there encounter stories I've ever heard. In a nutshell, this guy claims 535 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.679 to have had sex with a bigfoot, a female bigfoot. Right, So 536 00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.519 I don't know what to do with that, right, I don't know where 537 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:17.079 you go with those kind of encounters. I don't know what you do with 538 00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:21.400 that. At the same time, I feel like it's it's like this eight 539 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.639 hundred pound guerrilla in the room that frankly, we really need to talk about. 540 00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.440 Because there's a couple of sides to the mental health part, Like if 541 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:30.840 you have an encounter, there is PTSD, there's other things that happen, 542 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:35.639 there's other things that go on, and then you have these really fantastical, 543 00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:39.639 out there, what seemed to be almost created stories that people tell. But 544 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:45.199 where's the fine line there in saying that's just too crazy? But this hunter 545 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.760 who saw a ten foot big foot come up and grab his pistol out of 546 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.920 his lap probably was sleeping in a deer. Stand that makes sense because it's 547 00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:57.039 a hunter versus this happened to somebody else. Do you go into any of 548 00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.320 that in the book or have you had those conversations with people and there are 549 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:04.199 you on that just in general with some of the issues that we have when 550 00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:07.079 we're taking these encounters in some people may have some mental health issues on board. 551 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.760 And stay tuned for more Sasquatch Otessey, we'll be right back after these 552 00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:20.960 messages. Yeah. I spend one chapter of the book I interview Leon Thompson 553 00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:27.239 and this is based on you know, probably half a dozen multi hour discussions 554 00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:32.079 I've had with him on different things involving the PTSD relation and you know, 555 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:38.880 the high dress analysis of what somebody's going through, everything from body language to 556 00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:44.840 details to all of that, and there's just so many I think the thing 557 00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:47.840 that people miss is that, first of all, every person is different in 558 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:52.960 their you know, some people don't have a problem standing up and speaking in 559 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:57.039 front of a room of people, and some people freeze up at just thinking 560 00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:01.519 about having to do that. So the way that assuming you have one from 561 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:07.199 each of those perspectives that has an encounter the one, the way one of 562 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.880 them is going to describe it, and the descriptives they use is obviously going 563 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:14.400 to be different than the way the other one does. And you know, 564 00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:19.280 I think it's important that people understand we're talking about a pretty For me, 565 00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:27.480 there's a pretty fine line that I try to exist on in trying to decide 566 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:34.840 what seems to be an encounter that has some validity to it versus one that's 567 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.760 been embellished or made up. And I think that you have to find that 568 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:45.960 balance that exists where you have and some of this I felt like this for 569 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.559 a long time. Some of it I've kind of come to recognize after talking 570 00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:54.559 to Leon about this stuff. But you've got people who will hear somebody's encounter 571 00:44:54.920 --> 00:45:00.119 and because they've never experienced anything like this or they don't subscribe that, they 572 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:06.239 are close minded to being able to wrap their head around that this could have 573 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:12.280 happened to this person. And then there's other people who look at that and 574 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:15.039 say, I want to be open minded, so they'll just whatever that person 575 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:19.960 tells them. They'll say, Wow, that's that's incredible, like they're just 576 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:24.079 gonna believe it. Right to me, there's a middle ground there. I 577 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:31.599 mean, I don't believe that all one thousand episodes of West Germer's shows Encounters. 578 00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:36.079 I don't think that all thousand episodes are real. That has nothing to 579 00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.840 do with West. I'm just talking about the people who share them. Probably 580 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:43.559 half of them are either embellished or made up, but they certainly aren't all. 581 00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:46.840 You know, When I hear people share their encounters, I don't like 582 00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:52.360 hearing people just reading emails. I want to hear it from the source. 583 00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:57.639 I love it when I can see their faces, because to me, it's 584 00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:05.039 just easier to develop some degree of you know, assigning integrity to the source 585 00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:10.239 and how it's being conveyed versus somebody reading those words off of an email. 586 00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:15.480 You know, one would be very hard to not just throw into that I 587 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.960 don't known category, you know, but there is a degree of PTSD that 588 00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:23.920 exists out there. And the thing that I think is probably most important to 589 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:30.760 acknowledge is that even when somebody comes up to me and shares an encounter that 590 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:35.880 I have a hard time believing actually happened, I can certainly tell by their 591 00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:40.199 body language and their emotion that they believe it happened, whether or not I 592 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:45.519 believe it did or not. They've been through something they've been through something traumatic, 593 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:51.800 and nothing's going to benefit for me to call them a lie or stomp 594 00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:58.000 them into the ground on their lack of details or whatever it is. So 595 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:01.039 I try to be respect of that, even if I have an issue with 596 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:07.679 believing it. You know, I always start with the flesh and blood approach 597 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.559 when it comes to my research. I look for the most plausible explanation when 598 00:47:12.599 --> 00:47:17.639 I'm looking at data to explain what it is from a natural standpoint. And 599 00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:22.800 if I can't find the most plausible approach there, then maybe I've got to 600 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:28.119 be open mind enough to consider something else. And I'm willing to do that. 601 00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:34.559 But I don't start there, and I kind of approach encounter from the 602 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:38.119 same way I look for that. Could it be mistaken identity? Could it 603 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:45.679 be misperception? A lot of people they when they explain something their library of 604 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:51.800 reference. Everybody's different, you know, when I hear different hunting guides that 605 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:58.320 I spend time with a network with who literally live half the year in northern 606 00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:04.039 Idaho and Monte Hannah and so far off the grid. They're horseback riding fifteen 607 00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:07.400 twenty miles to get into an er because there are no ATV trails to get 608 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:13.920 there, and they spend all that time there, and most of them, 609 00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:16.880 when you say have you ever experienced anything that you couldn't find a natural explanation 610 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:22.199 too, they'll tell you no. I mean, it's just these guys who 611 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:28.280 are living out there and they're peripheral is everything around them out there, and 612 00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:31.920 they don't have experiences. So the one thing that I kind of leaned towards 613 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:37.280 is that it's not common to have an experience. It shouldn't be common. 614 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:43.039 These guys aren't living in these environments. It's rare to find somebody who's head 615 00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.119 one. So when somebody else who says, hey, we're going out this 616 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:50.880 weekend looking for bigfoot, and they come back and say, we found them, 617 00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:55.800 here's pictures. That really is a problem for me when I hear encounters 618 00:48:55.880 --> 00:49:00.440 that involve scenarios like that. Yeah, I agree, man, And it's 619 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:05.639 one of those double edged swords for people like me who want to obviously document 620 00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.320 as many encounters as I possibly can, because I think there's a little bit 621 00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:12.239 of something. I say it often there's data and everything people say, whether 622 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.559 they're completely batshit crazy or whether they've completely made it up. I think there's 623 00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:19.920 a little bit of something and everything that we can take away as researchers to 624 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:23.079 add to the pile of data, to say yes and no and maybe and 625 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:27.400 then shake out on the end what we get out of it. But we've 626 00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:30.519 talked a little bit about where we are. Where do you want to see 627 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.519 the research and bigfoot go. That's a big question for me, is moving 628 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.880 that ball down the field off the five yard line? What are your ideas 629 00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:39.920 on how to get there? And where would you like to see bigfoot research 630 00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:44.639 over the next twelve months or two or three years down the road. I 631 00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:50.400 think probably the two things I focus on the most is that one, we've 632 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:53.000 got to figure out a new approach, or at least not be afraid to 633 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:58.960 try things that you don't hear people trying. I think repeating the same thing 634 00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:05.440 over and over that doesn't seem to be productive is perhaps a waste of energy 635 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:09.480 now. But I say this understanding that a lot of people are out there 636 00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:13.760 just trying to have an experience. They aren't really trying to move the ball, 637 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:16.199 and I'm fine with that. I mean, there's no doubt in my 638 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.119 mind that we could probably go out there at three in the morning, and 639 00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:24.320 if we did it every weekend for a year and input ourselves in high value 640 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:30.280 target type areas and we start wood knocking. We might eventually hear a wood 641 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:36.079 knock back or a vocalization, and that would be something we'd tell stories about 642 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:39.320 forever. I mean, it would be a great experience. It's not going 643 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:44.559 to move that ball. And so you know a lot of people say we're 644 00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:46.519 going to go out looking and this and that. My question is, what 645 00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:53.599 are you trying to achieve that is going to have any type of dynamic difference 646 00:50:54.440 --> 00:51:00.599 on whether or not the ball can be moved. And there's a lot of 647 00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:02.440 opinions out there, Brian, There's a lot of people tell you there isn't 648 00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:07.119 a video good enough. You could go out right now and recreate what PG 649 00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:10.239 did. You're not going to move the ball. You could go out and 650 00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:16.880 do a lot of things. To me, I don't believe in this analogy 651 00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:22.840 that you have to have a body in order to prove it. Right now, 652 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:31.000 if you could get multiple labs to analyze DNA samples collected from multiple areas, 653 00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:37.440 not just one, but multiple areas that all start showing or at least 654 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:45.000 a couple start showing a genomic sequence involving part human DNA part unknown primate, 655 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:53.400 but they match. The DNA from Saskatchewan is matching that DNA from Washington State. 656 00:51:53.519 --> 00:52:00.559 It matches the DNA from wherever. My point is, until you have 657 00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:05.440 a body to test, you'll never be able to say these samples are from 658 00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:09.840 Bigfoot, but you'll be able to show that a species x so to speak, 659 00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:15.239 exists out there, that there is a part human, part unknown primate 660 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:22.320 species that exist that has previously been unmapped, undiscovered, unrecognized, has a 661 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:27.840 specific genomic sequence, and these samples that have been collected in multiple areas, 662 00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:32.239 there's samples that match. At that point, science has to at least acknowledge 663 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:37.679 that something exists it's part human and bipedal out there that they haven't recognized before 664 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:42.079 they're going to call it bigfoot, because until you have a bigfoot, you 665 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:45.960 can't show that that's what it is. But for me, it's I really 666 00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:51.679 want to focus on the DNA collection. And you know, kayaking eight and 667 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:53.559 a half miles in, eight and a half miles out and the next day 668 00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:59.679 doing it again. That's thirty five thirty eight miles a week. That's a 669 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:05.480 thousand miles over the course of a thirty some week summer, and there's a 670 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:07.719 lot of work. I mean quite there's a lot of mornings where I was 671 00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:12.000 freezing my ass off and I just I don't want to be right now. 672 00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:17.119 But when I started reading about this report and how they were using vector collection 673 00:53:17.239 --> 00:53:23.840 of DNA and using mosquitoes and capturing mosquitoes to collect that had fed on bloodhost 674 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:28.559 started opening my mind up a little bit too. Maybe there's a way to 675 00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:34.599 do this that hasn't been done before. And when talking to scientists about it 676 00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:37.440 to have access to the labs that could do it. When you give them 677 00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:45.000 an opportunity to get involved without trying to biasly push them into a corner, 678 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:51.400 they're excited to get involved in. It has been my experience. So I 679 00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:54.199 think, if I'm going to put effort into this, I'd rather go out 680 00:53:54.280 --> 00:54:00.960 and take set up mosquito traps in remote locations in three or four different remote 681 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:06.599 locations, partner with a lab to where once those samples are in their hands, 682 00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:09.559 it's not me anymore. Whatever they come up with is I'll be okay 683 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:15.559 with, you know, if they say that we haven't found anything that would 684 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:22.320 support the evidence of a part human by Petal in North America. Then I'll 685 00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:27.840 accept that. I mean I won't. I'll still believe differently. I'll agree 686 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:32.559 to disagree. But I don't think there's anything. I don't think the right 687 00:54:32.599 --> 00:54:37.199 approach is to try to push him into a corner of the room based on 688 00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:43.639 who's writing them a check or you know, this is the project, this 689 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.599 is the organization that you're partnering with. Boy, we hope you end up 690 00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:52.000 where we want to be. I don't think that works. I definitely agree. 691 00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.400 Let's talk about the book. Let's talk about where you're at in that 692 00:54:55.599 --> 00:55:00.960 process and when and if the book is out and when people can pick it 693 00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.920 up. Well, it is out. It just came out last week on 694 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.480 Friday. You can find it at Hanger one Publishing dot com, where you 695 00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:13.679 can find it on Amazon. It's called The Pine Island Incident. And like 696 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:17.320 I say, it's the first half of the book is really my encounter. 697 00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:22.559 A lot of people have heard me share my encounter on your show, Joe 698 00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.920 Schneider's show over at Western New York, Bigfoot, Cornell Hannity Show. I've 699 00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:32.280 shared it probably half a dozen places. Vic Kundiff's My Bigfoot Sightings is where 700 00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:38.440 it probably got the most recent exposure and probably the widest exposure from lately. 701 00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.400 That's the first half of the book. In the second half, like I 702 00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:47.280 say, it covers everything from my past research, kind of the psychology behind 703 00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:52.360 where the community is right now and where research is going. I try to 704 00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:59.199 interview people who would know how to dissect that a bit, and I believe 705 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:05.039 lely On Tom is a great person to approach that, how people suffer from 706 00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:09.599 not sharing it and the burden that is involved with carrying around an experience and 707 00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:14.199 not having anybody to talk to it about. And then where I want to 708 00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:17.159 go in research, So the books. Yeah, I think the easiest place 709 00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:21.800 to get us Hanger one Publishing dot Com. But you'll find it on Amazon 710 00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:24.039 too. I want to have links to it in both places. You guys, 711 00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:28.639 go check out the Pine Island incident. Jeff, It is always an 712 00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:30.920 honor to pleasure to have you on. Man, I've had a blast talking 713 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:35.800 to you. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. They say you 714 00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:45.400 don't gotta go home, but you can't stay here. I don't want to 715 00:56:45.559 --> 00:57:17.360 be trying to try that chime everything. Call it back, bright baby joy 716 00:57:17.639 --> 00:58:23.199 for me to stay right to call it right away. Don't back the US 717 00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:37.360 to US to us to use JAS