1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:50,479 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:56,320 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Joyce Call Canada, sister of 11 00:00:56,479 --> 00:01:00,679 Keith Call, here to give us an update on the Colonial Parkway murder and 12 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,920 everything related to it. Joyce, thank you for joining us today. You're 13 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,359 very welcome. Go ahead and remind our listeners a little bit of who you 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,879 are, and then tell us a little bit about yourself and the things that 15 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,519 make you. Yeah. Hi, I'm Joyce. I'm Keith Paul's older sister. 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,239 I live in Gloucester, Virginia, and I have for a long time. 17 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,799 I'm married and have two four babies. I'm a real estate agent and 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,359 my husband and I have a little business. My husband builds houses and I 19 00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:34,560 try to sell them. So that's what we do. I think you're being 20 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,079 modest. You've had a lot of success in selling those houses. If I'm 21 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:44,400 not mistaken. The market's been good the last couple of years really, so 22 00:01:45,239 --> 00:01:48,439 yes, as soon as before we build them, there's old but we're getting 23 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,959 ready to do another one this year. So we're just small, mom and 24 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,159 pop. But we like what we do and tell our listeners a little bit 25 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,959 about Keith. Yeah, Keith my younger brother. He's seven years younger than 26 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:06,799 me. He would have been fifty five in March. Yeah, I really 27 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,599 missed him a lot. But he was Heath was Actually he had graduated high 28 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,000 school. He was in his first year of college. It was when this 29 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,960 happened to him, and he was coming up on the end of the first 30 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,080 semester. He was going to school for a computer science So this was back 31 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,800 in nineteen eighty eight and he already had a love of the computer, so 32 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,400 he had one in his room. He had one of those great, big 33 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:35,800 clunky I don't even know, a doss or something like that. Bill. 34 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,080 I heard you talk about it. Oh yeah, this is an old school. 35 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:43,240 But he was very good with computers. He was. I can remember 36 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,360 going into his bedroom and he would say, hey, come look at this, 37 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:50,960 and he had some kind of contraction where he put the old type of 38 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,800 telephone, handheld telephone receiver, and he put it into this contraption and he 39 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,120 was like, look, i'm we can communicate it this way. And I 40 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:04,599 was like, what world, I don't know, and he was probably I 41 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:07,840 think he was playing games and so forth. But yeah, he was very 42 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,400 interested in it way back. So I think he would have loved how things 43 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:16,439 have evolved the career path. Even back then, I think so too. 44 00:03:16,479 --> 00:03:21,879 I think he was doing one of the first dial up computer systems where you 45 00:03:21,879 --> 00:03:25,159 would put the phone in the cradle and then send audio signals. There was 46 00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:30,319 all this crackling and worrying, and there were certain sounds actually those old computers 47 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:35,319 made. I wasn't an expert, but I had friends like Keith that were 48 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,319 really Crackerjack, and I can't help but believe even though obviously Kristin and I 49 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,159 never met Keith, we feel like we know him a little bit through you 50 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:47,240 and your family. I think he would have loved all of these developments in 51 00:03:47,479 --> 00:03:52,879 computer technology over the last thirty five years. Oh, I really do too. 52 00:03:52,919 --> 00:03:55,439 I can almost bet on it. He'd probably have a whole bunch of 53 00:03:55,439 --> 00:03:59,719 devices, probably not like just one phone, but many, and probably a 54 00:03:59,759 --> 00:04:02,360 couple of laptops. I'm just imagining that, not that he would have, 55 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:06,479 because it was funny thinking back. He would get all excited telling here and 56 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,199 look at this, and I'm like, Okay, that really makes him happy. 57 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,560 We also know that he was really into music, because, for instance, 58 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,959 we've seen a clip of him waiting with friends to go see You Two, 59 00:04:21,439 --> 00:04:26,439 who were a relatively new band back then, and he was waiting in 60 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,600 line with friends to get concert tickets. As I recall, Yeah he did. 61 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:36,240 He loved You Two, Pink Floyd, Joshua Tree, all that good 62 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:43,959 music, and yeah, I was actually talking to Selena's sister. Selena was 63 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,639 his girlfriend, longtime girlfriend her sister a couple of days ago, and she 64 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,360 was sharing a memory with me about him and she said he was over our 65 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,800 house one day. They were both over there and he said, she said, 66 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,519 he was so excited. She said, it's when CD's first came out. 67 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,199 And he came over and he had just got this new CD player and 68 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,319 he was telling them, y'all have to get one of those. You just 69 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,160 have a look at the difference in the sound. And she was laughing about 70 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,680 how excited he was about it. We just crossed a pretty sobering milestone in 71 00:05:16,879 --> 00:05:23,839 Keith and Cassandra's case, and that is the thirty five year mark. Did 72 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:27,680 you ever think that you would reach three and a half decades in this case 73 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,560 with no answers? Never, in my wildest dreams did I think that. 74 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:36,800 I did not. No, I never thought anything like this, whatever even 75 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,800 happened, And then let alone, thirty five years out, still not know 76 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,959 what happened. I must say, it's probably a good thing I did not 77 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,639 know, because it's something that you don't want to know when the forefront, 78 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,360 that's for sure, if you don't mind walk us through, just like the 79 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,399 basics of what happened to Keith and Sandy, what they were doing the night 80 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:04,759 they went missing, and just a little bit about what transpired. The way 81 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:10,560 that I've been told is that they were friends from a class that they had 82 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,600 in college. They had a class together and they become friends. They decided 83 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,879 to go out on a date that night, a casual date from what I 84 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,480 understand, and Keith went to pick her up. I think they went to 85 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:29,240 a movie first, and then they decided to stop by the impromptu party that 86 00:06:29,319 --> 00:06:32,920 they were having at University Square Parts apartments, which was across from the college 87 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,639 that they both went to. And from what I understand, there was not 88 00:06:36,759 --> 00:06:41,839 just one party going on. It was the type that there we had parties 89 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:46,360 going on in different apartments, and it was like a place where the kids. 90 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,279 It wasn't like a formal party. They would go there and hang out. 91 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,000 They would know you didn't need an invitation. They would just oh, 92 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:56,120 let's go. And then they went from one apartment to the other. And 93 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,279 that's the way that it was explained to me. And that's where they went. 94 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,120 And Keith had picked up some beer before the evening had started. As 95 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:09,000 I recall, your brother said, actually, yeah, Chris, my brother, 96 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,560 which is younger than me but older than Keith, had actually got it 97 00:07:13,639 --> 00:07:17,319 for him. I think Keith called him and he was going to borrow a 98 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,800 jacket or some kind of piece of clothing from him, and then asking what 99 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,480 he'd get him some beer. I think the reason being because Keith wasn't a 100 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,480 big drinker, but he knew that they were going to go to college party 101 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,920 or go there, and that was just what you did, just went ahead 102 00:07:34,079 --> 00:07:39,439 and come here. To remember, this was nineteen eighty eight and it wasn't 103 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:43,399 like it was now. And that's the story. That's what Chris tells me. 104 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:46,920 He just asked him and he said, yeah, and you don't go 105 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:49,160 into the party empty handed. In other words, even if he wasn't going 106 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,000 to drink a lot of beer, you bring some beer with you as a 107 00:07:53,040 --> 00:08:00,560 contribution, housewarming present. That's the type of parties I went to me too. 108 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,600 Don't come empty handed. And so then the University Square Apartments party was 109 00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:11,920 the last place where Keith and Sandra were seen at that point. What happened 110 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:16,120 to Keith and Sandra after that, that's the million dollar question there. We 111 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,560 do not know they were last seen, and we've had different accounts of the 112 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,600 time, varying from an hour or two. And I don't know we related 113 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:30,399 because maybe somebody saw them so when Telma Cassandra in one apartment and then maybe 114 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:33,759 Cassandra had went to another apartment. That's the only thing we can think of. 115 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:39,679 It sounds logical, but it was I've heard bearing in accounts between twelve 116 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,600 thirty and about quarter to two something like that they were last seen and they 117 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:50,399 left there, and that I know of, nobody has ever seen them since 118 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,519 they walked out those doors. I was just going to say the car was 119 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,320 found in the wee hours of the morning on a Colonial Parkway, but no 120 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:05,120 sign them and they were trying to meet a curfew. As we understand it 121 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,639 that Keith had said to Sandy's parents he would have her home by two am 122 00:09:09,759 --> 00:09:16,200 or something like that. That is correct. Yes, the Colonial Parkway spot 123 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:22,600 where Keith Toyota Selika is found is not on the way home from the University 124 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:28,200 Square apartments to Sandy's parents house in the Grafton area. No much out of 125 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,360 the way. It's quite a bit out of the way of fifteen twenty minutes 126 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:35,720 out of the way. There's no reason for them to go there. I 127 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,519 know they didn't go there. So in your view, then the car is 128 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,840 placed there perhaps, but you don't think that Keith and Sandy would have ended 129 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:48,000 up on the Colonial Parkway for the reasons you've outlined. No, I don't 130 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:52,320 think so, not at all. I don't think so. She had a 131 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:58,000 curfew, and Keith would have taken her home somewhere around that curfew, and 132 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,720 Keith nor Sandy hung around, spent a lot of time on the parkway. 133 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:07,840 And from what I understand from Cassandra's sisters is that Sandy did not even like 134 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,679 going to the Parkway. It was just really out of the way. There 135 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,440 was no reason for them to be there at that time in the morning, 136 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,799 on that dark place, at that particular overlook. There's just no reason whatsoever. 137 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,639 We've heard the theories from law enforcement that maybe they went swimming, maybe 138 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:30,279 they drowned. That bluff is just so high over the James River. It 139 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,440 was an April morning. It's way too cold to swim. I've never bought 140 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,000 it. I don't think your family or any of the other survivor's family has 141 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,799 bought that either. No, never for a minute. Never for a minute. 142 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:45,960 There's no way of fact. It was. It was cold that night. 143 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,440 It was I believe the temperatures were in the forties at night. Just 144 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,960 this past weekend in April. We were out there. It was windy and 145 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,759 chilly. The sun was out, but but it was cold. Nobody in 146 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:01,320 their right mind is going to go down there, and if they were ever 147 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,559 going to there's plenty of other places where you can just walk out to the 148 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:11,039 beach, not go down an embankment that's thirty feet. Keith would have driven 149 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:16,279 across the York River on the Coleman Bridge more than likely to get home to 150 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:22,039 your parents' home in Gloucester. Correct, And it's correct. So that would 151 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:26,639 mean that he would leave Sandra's house and get right back on Route seventeen or 152 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,200 J. Clyde Morris Boulevard, wherever you want to call it. George Washington, 153 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,759 Memorial Hathway goes by all those names, but it's Route seventeen and it 154 00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:41,000 goes all the way from Newfort News and it'll go follow across the bridge into 155 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,360 Gloucester, just one straight shot, no no turns until he would have turned 156 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:50,919 off on my parents road, and there's no reason for him to have gone 157 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,519 onto the parkway once he was on seventeen. I've driven that a number of 158 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:58,679 times. There's no reason to get off there out of the wall and what 159 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:05,080 we heard is that Keith and his longtime girlfriend, Selena, whom you mentioned 160 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,879 a moment ago, were on a bit of a hiatus. They had sort 161 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:13,120 of separated, if you will, and they were a very close couple throughout 162 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,639 the latter part of high school. Correct, that's right, they had taken 163 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:22,399 a break. They seemed fairly mature to me for as young as they were, 164 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:28,120 But I think back to my maturity level at that age, and it's 165 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:31,320 yeah, she was in college and she was I think in her second year 166 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:37,799 and he was in his first. I believe that they had just taken like 167 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,159 a two week break and had decided that they were going to continue on with 168 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,960 their relationship. That is from ye. I do still keep in touch with 169 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,759 Selena, and like I was saying, I just talked to her sister the 170 00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:52,519 other day. So people we've talked to who were at the college party at 171 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,840 the Christopher Newport University apartments University Square apartments, which are no longer there, 172 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,399 they've told us that Keith and seen You didn't seem to spend a lot of 173 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,480 time together that evening. They were in separate social groups at the party, 174 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:11,120 and that Keith was in the kitchen for a good portion of time singing the 175 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,720 blues about how much he missed Selena to one of her friends. So it 176 00:13:15,759 --> 00:13:20,519 didn't sound like any kind of big breakup between Keith and Selena. It actually 177 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:24,840 sounded like they were going to get back together exactly. Yeah, they were, 178 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,960 and that's what she had said too, And he was talking to his 179 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:33,279 friend on each wolfriend of both there's in the kitchen for hours that night. 180 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:37,960 Keith and Cassandra were at the party together, but they weren't together as a 181 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,240 couple at that And I can remember doing that when I was young too. 182 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:46,679 It's just okay, let's go together, but we're not together. Yeah. 183 00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,720 At this point, now that we've caught up a little bit on the case, 184 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,679 I want to make sure we talk about some of the issues that come 185 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,039 up every time you guys cross an anniversary, and I want to make sure 186 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:01,279 we talk about some of the good things that are coming up here with an 187 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,799 upcoming monument. So I guess my first question is what do you and your 188 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,679 family do when it's time to mark an anniversary. Do you have any rituals? 189 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,679 Do you go to a specific place, do you have a beer for 190 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:16,759 Keith? Like, what do you guys do to mark his memory on these 191 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:22,240 these weekends and years pasted earlier in the years, sometimes we would go to 192 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,879 the Parkway, but we haven't done that in a long time, and actually 193 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:30,000 don't really like to go there to do that. So usually we'll just say 194 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,080 a prayer and we don't have any place to go. We've never had really 195 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:39,879 any place to go that. The main thing that we do is just amongst 196 00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:43,559 ourselves, tell ourselves and tell Keith and prayers that we are still fighting for 197 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:48,519 you and we're trying our best to find out what happened. It's my understanding 198 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:52,360 that Keith didn't have a funeral or a memorial service, and I can understand 199 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:58,399 that when there is nobody to find that would I can understand that. Was 200 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,519 there any other reasoning behind that not having a service for him, No, 201 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,159 there was never really any other reason. I think the first few years, 202 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:11,320 even when my dad was still alive and taking care of everything, it was 203 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:16,919 still like so fresh and we were trying it's okay, it was ever years. 204 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,799 We're going to find something out, something's going to happen, or we 205 00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:24,519 would get our hopes up. We're going to have a resolution to this somehow, 206 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:28,000 somehow, and every year that's just carried us over or carried us over. 207 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,320 And we're not giving up by any means now still. But the thing 208 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:37,639 is, as y'all probably are well aware of, as the years go by 209 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:41,240 and we all get older, I don't want to leave this earth and there 210 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,360 not be anything marked of his existence here on earth. And my brothers and 211 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:50,960 I have talked about that in years. Pain of the last seven or eight 212 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:56,279 years, we should probably do something. We should probably do something, but 213 00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:02,279 we hadn't yet. But now I just feel like it's time. It's time. 214 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,200 It's time, and I feel good about it. It's time to do 215 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,159 it. So yeah, go ahead and talk to us a little bit about 216 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,080 this, this monument that is going to be placed for Keith a little bit 217 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,799 later this year. How did that come about? And which company is actually 218 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:18,919 doing the work on that. We'd love to sing their praises. This is 219 00:16:18,919 --> 00:16:22,279 how it actually started. Like I said, we had thought about it on 220 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:26,960 and off for years. This time last year, probably out of the blue, 221 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:30,399 I get a phone call. It was probably a voicemail, and I 222 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:34,440 called this fellow back and his name is Ed Taylor and he is with the 223 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:41,720 Cumberland Historic cemetery organization and that is in Cumberland, Maryland, and he says 224 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:49,480 that every year his organization donates a certain amount of monuments or stones to families 225 00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:53,399 for different reasons. It can be different reasons. It can be somebody whose 226 00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:57,360 family member has been gone for a long, long longer than Keith and they 227 00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:03,039 never had a proper bury or stones, or it can be there's a wide 228 00:17:03,159 --> 00:17:07,599 range. But what it was is he had travel of this area quite a 229 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,759 bit in the early two thousands and he got familiar with our cases and so 230 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:17,359 he used to follow our cases and he stole does when they were talking about 231 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,640 who they wanted to donate too. As they were talking about it last year, 232 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,960 he brought up our cases with the board of directors for his organization and 233 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,640 they all seem very interested. So he called me to ask if my family 234 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,839 and I would be interested before he went any further. And I was like, 235 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,559 let me ask them, But I think so because we had been thinking 236 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,200 about it. Fast forward after I talked to my brothers about it and they 237 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:47,359 were said yes, and we started talking in summer of last year. So 238 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:52,480 we decided to do it and they have vaciously along with Roswell was where my 239 00:17:52,559 --> 00:18:00,039 parents are buried up Homerland Historic Cemetery Organization. Yet they have heard the monument 240 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,480 and I don't know. Do you want me to tell you what they put 241 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:07,880 on it? But they're putting on it. No, absolutely tell us this 242 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:11,599 is what's going to be on it's it's going to have a ceramic tile of 243 00:18:11,759 --> 00:18:15,400 Keith, a picture of Keith. And I know your audience can't see that 244 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,400 gun. They'll show it to you right there. It's going to go right 245 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,519 there, and it has his name and it has his birthday and then it 246 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,880 says last seen a Live April tenth, nineteen eighty eight. Son of Richard 247 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:33,200 and Barbara call. He had a kind, loving and empathetic nature. He 248 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,920 loved his family and friends and had so much value in his family and world. 249 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:45,200 Keith life was tragically stolen from him when he stopped at a cottage get 250 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:52,720 a college get together with Cassandra Haley last scene at University Square Apartments Nuper News. 251 00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:57,680 His car was abandoned on the Colonial Parkway. Their clothes were found in 252 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,640 the car. No remain have been found as of twenty twenty three, when 253 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:10,319 this monument was unveiled by Cumberland Historic cemetery, the search continues, May God 254 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,440 have mercy on his soul and all souls, and then it leaves the space 255 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,599 on there just in case we ever do find any remains, we can put 256 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,400 a date on there. So that's what's going to be on the monument. 257 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,119 We haven't had a limited space and so we had to condense it down. 258 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,599 I wanted to make sure Cassandra's name was on there too, right, So 259 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,680 that's what we're going to put on my parents grave. I think it's beautiful. 260 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,400 Both of your folks have gone now, and you were telling us this 261 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:45,160 is a unique situation because Heath technically and Sandy are both missing persons. We 262 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,960 don't know with a hundred assuredness that they're gone, but it's been thirty five 263 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:56,200 years, so the chances are they've passed on. But it's a unique situation 264 00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,839 in that here we are now putting a beautiful marker at the Roseville Cemetery, 265 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:07,720 but with no remains. Right. It actually sounded like there was some significant 266 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:15,440 discussion behind the scenes between the Cumberland Historic Cemetery Group and the Roseville Cemetery about 267 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,240 we've kind of never done this before. But everybody came together, including your 268 00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:25,200 family to show support for this idea. Yes, there had to be an 269 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,079 agreement between Rosewell, which is hog general home they owned, Rosewell a Memorial 270 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:36,119 Gardens where my parents are buried, and Cumberland. So Rosewell is going to 271 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,599 install the granite that goes underneath where the monument's going to sit. Cumberland is 272 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:45,559 going to bring down the monument. And so they did come to agreement and 273 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,119 they said that they would be glad to help us. So I was glad 274 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,119 for that. So everybody did. So a lot of it was just we 275 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,640 had to go through red tape on both because there was two sets of board 276 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,559 of directors, and you know how that's everybody came together. It's so wonderful 277 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,759 that Rosewell agreed to allow this to happen, because I guess they could have 278 00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:10,039 said no. They could have said no. I was then they really could 279 00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:15,119 have. We were really hoping not because I guess basically, it's like Rosewell 280 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,920 has been in this community for a long time, and I know that the 281 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,680 owners of that place have been around for a long time, and so they're 282 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,839 familiar with a lot of people in this community, and so we knew that 283 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:32,640 they were familiar with all of the Colonial Parkway cases. So we were really 284 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,279 hoping that they wanted to support the community, which they did. I know 285 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,720 it is highly unusual, but it's not going to be taking up any of 286 00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:42,640 the other space. It's going to be right there with my parents, which 287 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,680 is I think that if they know anything, if they can never see anything, 288 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,160 that they would be happy. Oh I think so, oh yeah, 289 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,519 yeah, absolutely, you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 290 00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:03,119 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. 291 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,599 And just because I'm sure that we're going to have people who ask why is 292 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:12,640 there no monument on the Colonial Parkway? Either of you can either of you 293 00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:18,119 I'm getting when I rolls from both Joyce and Bill, please note, can 294 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,000 either of you or both of you speak to why there will not be a 295 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,440 Colonial Parkway marker or a monument on the parkway? Joyce, would you like 296 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:30,799 to take that or would you like me to I'd like you to take that, 297 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,480 respectfully. The National Park Service has never shown us an ounce of support, 298 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:45,000 even some years back when the call in Haley Families had made arrangements to 299 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:51,039 bring in cadaver dogs to search some likely spots where remains might be found. 300 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:55,839 Joyce can tell you more because she was there and lived it along with the 301 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,279 members of the Haley family. We got nothing but resistance from the National Park 302 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,759 Service since the very beginning. In my opinion, they've wanted nothing to do 303 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,519 with the Colonial Parkway murders. I know they don't even like the name the 304 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:12,440 Colonial Parkway Murders, which isn't something we made up. The media came up 305 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:18,640 with this name. So I don't think the National Park Service would ever allow 306 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,480 anything that would indicate that such a sad thing had happened along the Colonial Parkway. 307 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,680 Maybe someday, it's funny. They've got historic markers all over the place. 308 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,000 They'll show you where all of the old sites were, and some of 309 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,680 the important plantations and other homes and other places where significant events took place. 310 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:44,400 But heaven forbid they'd ever acknowledge the fact that something sad happened out there, 311 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,799 and by the way, assuming for a moment that the Keith and Sandy were 312 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,799 also taken from us, there have been multiple murders on the Colonial Parkway. 313 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:59,039 Ours are not even the only violent crimes that have taken place along the Colonial 314 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,039 Parkway, and they want nothing to do with any of this. Yeah, 315 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:06,880 we've talked about the Audrey gene Wiler case before, certainly, and that was 316 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,039 a year before Kathy and Becky. So no, these are not the only 317 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,319 violent crimes that have taken place on the Parkway. But yeah, absolutely, 318 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,759 I'm sure that the NPS would throw up their hands and flee screaming into the 319 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,599 night if you ever mentioned the idea of let's memorialize this somehow, Even when 320 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,559 the Colin Haley families were searching with the cadaver dogs, they seem to be 321 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,039 more concerned day. The National Park Service seemed to be more concerned that a 322 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:37,480 blade of grass would be disturbed by a passing dog than we'd advance this investigation 323 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:42,559 of these unsolved murders and missing people. Ironically, the cadaver dogs did hit 324 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,000 on something that day, and there were remains found along the Colonial Parkway. 325 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,640 But understand that these are historic sites and people have been buried there any number 326 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,640 of times, so there are unmarked graves all the way back to colonial times 327 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:03,240 and even before. Things like that can and do happen, but the National 328 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,839 Park Service doesn't want to do anything to mark the locations where any of these 329 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:11,440 sad events might have taken place. It's a shame. Joyce. You and 330 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:15,839 I had I think a fairly fun and productive conversation the other night about what 331 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:21,359 ultimately we would like to do once this monument is being placed. We'd like 332 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,200 to honor Keith and Sandra and all the victims in some way. So can 333 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,839 you talk a little bit about what kind of event you would like to see 334 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:34,359 that's going to honor the opening of the monument and also all of the cases. 335 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,960 We know that we're going to be holding this in October, which is 336 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:42,839 right around the time that the remaining three sets of Parkway cases will have their 337 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:47,519 anniversary. In addition to the timeframe, tell us about what you'd like to 338 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:49,160 see. What would you like to do. I think it's good that it's 339 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,480 fall and where we've decided to have that in October. It's really good date 340 00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:59,640 to keep it out there for all of the victims families. I really do 341 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:03,160 that part of it. So we want to honor Keith because we just feel 342 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,319 like in our hearts that we need to do that for our family. And 343 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,039 like I think, I don't know who I was telling your Bill that before 344 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:15,160 now and I were talking about this the other day that in our mind at 345 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,960 first, when we thought about having a memorial service for Keith, we thought 346 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,519 it was going to We're going to just do a small family affair. We 347 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:29,240 probably still will, but we have an opportunity at this point to represent for 348 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:33,119 all the families and to bring awareness to these cases. So we're going to 349 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,160 have the memorial for Keith, but we also are going to invite some politicians. 350 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:44,039 We want to have keep pressure on the FBI and the state police to 351 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,079 get these paces solved. We would love to put some pressure on the FBI 352 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,880 to get them to share work with off from Labs. I know Bill talks 353 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,759 about that a lot, and I'm right on board with that, right on 354 00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:03,240 board with that. The cases that they are solving them, there's no reason 355 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:07,079 why they can't solve at least one of ours, at least one of them. 356 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:11,440 We want to keep the awareness, keep the pressure on, celebrate some 357 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:15,119 lives. Oh talk about it. You'd mentioned wanting to see some politicians there. 358 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:19,279 Who would you who's on your ultimate guest list? We have talked about 359 00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:26,680 so far inviting for North when some seers, which is the Lieutenant Governor Jason 360 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,039 Maires? Is that am I saying that correctly meres I think is how you 361 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:34,519 say it. And he's the attorney general. And then some of our local 362 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,640 bits. And I know when you and I were talking the other night, 363 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:44,039 Christian y'all were talking about winning Bobby Scott. Maybe we are going to be 364 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:49,480 getting together a media package and start sending out so by Lou Call y'all know 365 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,319 who she is, and she is to be helping with that as well. 366 00:27:53,680 --> 00:28:00,920 And we've had invitations from a couple of the local news media reporters that they 367 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:06,279 have some they can help us get in touch with some of the politicians. 368 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:10,000 So we are going to take them up on that. And you had stories 369 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,359 that just ran a couple of days ago now on both WAVY and w t 370 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:18,400 k R, two of the big television stations in the area. How did 371 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,039 those come together? Oh, they did very well. They reached out to 372 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,640 us. And when I was talking to Kelsey Smith w t KRS, who 373 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,319 did an interview for Channel three, and she was all on the board and 374 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,279 she said, please Keepney posted. I want to follow this and she says, 375 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,039 and by the way, I want to let you know that one of 376 00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:45,839 the reporters who has done several stories from WTK are Brandon Ponton. He talks 377 00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,119 with Bill quite a bit. She tells me, Yes, he's a wonderful 378 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,359 young guy. Yeah. She says that he actually does a lot of the 379 00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:59,039 interviews with politician. He has some very good connections and we should reach out 380 00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:02,960 to him too. She said, do you still have his number? If 381 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,000 not, I'm gonna give it to you. I do. So. She 382 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,319 was very helpful and enthusiastic, and they do want to follow and be involved. 383 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,240 And Wavy with Andy, Wavy with Andy Fox, and he was on 384 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:21,200 board. And he also told me he instructed me, actually he said, 385 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:26,440 this is what you do. So we will be reaching back out to Andy 386 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,759 too. And Andy Fox is one of the reporters who has covered this case 387 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:37,799 from the very first event, and he's been so committed to the Colonial Parkway 388 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,440 murders and so helpful to the families. Yeah, I know, he's very 389 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,759 passionate and committed and feels very close to your family and all of the families. 390 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:49,559 Yes, he's been there, just like you said, from the very 391 00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:53,559 beginning. And there are times that even if it's not in the news or 392 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:57,839 anything, if it's coming up on some kind of anniversary date, He will 393 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,839 call me or text to me and he will say I'm thinking about you and 394 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,759 your family. Yeah, just out. That's so kind and it means a 395 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:10,319 lot. It means a lot that we're just not just not a news case 396 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,839 for him, that he does care. When we did the Lover's Lane murder 397 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,680 series on Oxygen, one of the things that made me smile was seeing a 398 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:26,039 very young Andy Fox as a reporter with a big swatch of dark hair, 399 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,480 and then to see him now, he's still a very handsome guy and all 400 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,079 that, but he has gone white. To look at those two different pictures, 401 00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:38,599 a young reporter and now a veteran reporter, it really served to remind 402 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,039 you of the passage of time from way back in Keith and Sandy went missing 403 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,039 to the present day. And to look at this reporter talking about the case, 404 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,119 You're like, wow, it really has been three decades. Bill. 405 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,319 I do have a question for you. I'm going to turn the tables here 406 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,519 a second. Do you see having a monument as something that you would like 407 00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,119 to do Kathy. I know Kathy was cremated and her ashes spread at sea, 408 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:07,599 so you don't really have a place you can go either. Is this 409 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,640 something that you'd want to see done for Kathy and Becky. You know, 410 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,079 I want to talk to my brothers about it. I know one of the 411 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,720 things that Ed Taylor has mentioned is that they might want to do something for 412 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,759 Sandy and her family because we talk about these couples as couples, and the 413 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:26,799 truth is, when you actually get into the details of it, Keith and 414 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,920 Sandy were friends from school, but weren't a serious couple. They were out 415 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,599 on a first date that night. And so Sandy isn't from Gloucester, she's 416 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:44,200 from the Grafton area. Her family members, if any, would be probably 417 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:49,079 memorialized in a different place. But interestingly, Ed Taylor said that he wanted 418 00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:56,759 to talk to the Hailey family about perhaps doing something maybe next year to memorialize 419 00:31:56,839 --> 00:32:01,440 Sandy, because we're not trying to minimize their loss. I thought what the 420 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:07,240 Cumberland folks did was lovely and thoughtful. When you talk to me about this, 421 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:09,240 Joyce, I was like, Wow, these people aren't even from Virginia, 422 00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:14,720 They're from Maryland. Mister Taylor's been following this case for so many years, 423 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,480 and what a lovely gesture. And I think it's something that might make 424 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:23,519 a lot of sense for Sandy. As far as the Thomases go, I'd 425 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:28,359 really have to maybe sit with my brothers and talk to them about it. 426 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,359 Cathy was cremated and her ashes were scattered off a US Navy ship off Norfolk, 427 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:38,279 and we have videotape of the ceremony. Weirdly, only my father was 428 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:43,720 permitted to attend. I don't even remember how all that happened, and I'm 429 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,559 not one hundred percent sure that was necessarily the right way to go. But 430 00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:49,680 you're just doing the best you can, as Joyce can tell you, you're 431 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,400 just trying to support your parents and get through the most difficult time you've ever 432 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,400 had in your entire life. There are things about the steps that we took 433 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,480 that I'm not sure necessarily the best, but it's done, so I guess 434 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,079 we'd have to think about if you're going to do something to mark my sister 435 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,079 Cathy's passing, where would you put it? Once again, speaking frankly, 436 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,359 the United States Naval Academy wanted nothing to do with my sister's murder. And 437 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,720 there's a story that needs to be told someday about just how far the Naval 438 00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:25,960 Academy took their efforts to create distance between themselves and what they saw as a 439 00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:34,880 scandalous murder of an Honors Annapolis graduate being murdered with their girlfriend it. I 440 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,759 guess we'd have to think long and hard about is this something we would like 441 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,480 and where would we put that and how could we do that in a way 442 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,680 that was the most appropriate and heartfelt way to recognize losing someone like this. 443 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:53,079 Even just the physical location of it is there's no specific place that makes complete 444 00:33:53,079 --> 00:33:57,240 sense. Both my parents are gone now and they were both cremated and their 445 00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:00,759 ashes were scattered, so it's not like there's a family plot like in the 446 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,400 Call family example. I was talking to Joyce about this a few weeks ago, 447 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,800 and I actually went online and looked at the Roswell Cemetery, which is 448 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,800 absolutely beautiful, and I looked up the Calls, and of course there's a 449 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:20,280 photograph of their marker. When Joyce and her brother Doug did the interviews, 450 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,920 which was so well done, you were standing there at the family plot. 451 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,840 So to start bringing this tour to clothes, I do want to ask again 452 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,320 both of you, because you are both the family members of victims, what 453 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:37,840 do you think right now? April twelfth, twenty twenty three is the biggest 454 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:43,880 stumbling block to this case being solved. Joy, So I'll start with you 455 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,559 and then let Bill follow up. What is the biggest stumbling block to this 456 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:53,159 case being solved? I think not enough communication. We don't know what is 457 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:58,480 going on. They feed us tidbits and a lot of it. We have 458 00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:02,760 to find out our own piece it together, and that's been difficult through the 459 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,760 years. Also, I really and truly I am right on board with Bill 460 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:14,880 in having our DNA with a lab or a lab that can test degraded DNA. 461 00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:19,320 At this point, that's what our case has. From what I've been 462 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,159 told, our cases are solvable with the DNA. What do we have to 463 00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:25,840 lose at this point, We don't have a darn thing to lose. We 464 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,119 have everything to gain. So that's what I want to see. And I'm 465 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:34,280 speaking from my whole family at this point, they are all on board. 466 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,239 It's been so many years now I don't even understand, and this is my 467 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,960 limited I'm not in the service, I'm not in law enforcement. I'm just 468 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,360 a family member with a brother and missing. I don't understand how, after 469 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,920 all these years, did they have to be so damn secretive. Tell us 470 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,920 something. Tell us something. You don't have to shout it to the rooftops. 471 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,599 Let us know what's going on before we all die off. Is that 472 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:05,800 what you want? Good question? Good question? Still how about you? 473 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,400 As for me, I agree with everything Joyce just said. It pains me 474 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,719 to say this, but I think our biggest roadblock to success and experts have 475 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,039 told us that this is a solvable case. The Colonial Parkway murders can be 476 00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,400 solved, but we need time, attention, and resources from the Virginia State 477 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:30,000 Police and especially the FBI, the foot dragging and the bureaucracy. And you're 478 00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:36,719 the lowest possible priority because you're are cold case policies, particularly of the FBI 479 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:42,320 are infuriating. They are the reason these cases are not being solved. When 480 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,199 we have evidence being sent out from Keith's Toyota Celica and it takes over a 481 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,559 year to get results, and this is a batch of evidence is sent in 482 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,039 tested. We understand sometimes are going to be some strikeouts. We get that 483 00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:00,880 we're talking about cases that are thirty five years old. But to be told, 484 00:37:01,559 --> 00:37:06,639 it'll take some time to get results, and those results on just that 485 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,719 round of testing take a year. That's not acceptable. And I have told 486 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,840 the FBI this in no uncertain terms. The FBI Quantico lab is stacked up. 487 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,079 It's too small to do the job that it's being asked to do. 488 00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:27,400 The private labs that Joyce has mentioned, Athram, Bodie and others are available. 489 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,039 We will work with these agencies to raise funds to cover the costs. 490 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,960 The Call and Haley families in particular have been very successful at raising funds. 491 00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:43,119 I am confident with the support that we've been shown through the Mind Over Murder 492 00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:46,880 audience, our Facebook pages, social media, and the thousands of people that 493 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,239 have reached out to us and said what can I do to help these families 494 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,880 that we could work out ways to raise funds to cover costs. But for 495 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,360 the FBI to say to me, oh, we can't accept gifts of that 496 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,400 type, it's not a gift. We're trying to solve our loved ones murders 497 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,960 and missing persons cases. We need to get some higher level of cooperation and 498 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,840 as Joyce said, more information flow. It doesn't have to be public. 499 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:21,719 It's infuriating to just feel like you're constantly being pushed away and back from your 500 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:27,519 own loved ones murder or missing persons case, we've lost more than half the 501 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:30,920 parents. Now, if there are eight victims, we have sixteen moms and 502 00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:36,480 dads. Or the eight victims in the Colonial Parkway murders, we've lost more 503 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:42,000 than half. Now nine of those parents had died waiting for answers in the 504 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,679 Colonial Parkway murders. It's infuriating to have this drag on this way. I 505 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,320 second that you both have already indicated that you want your final your concrete step. 506 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:59,880 The next thing should be, let's put Athram's considerable resources to the attention 507 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,239 of this case. Is there anything else that you'd like to see happen, 508 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,920 like in the next year that would help move this case forward other than Offram. 509 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,199 One other thing I'll add. After hearing of all of the pushback that 510 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:17,039 we were getting regarding expenses in this case, the folks from ATHRAM came back 511 00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:22,440 to me and said we'll do the testing at no charge. And I thank 512 00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:24,960 them. And first I misunderstood them. I thought they were talking about Kathy 513 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,400 and Becky's case, which is only one of the four incidents in the Colonial 514 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,280 Parkway murders. And then talking to Kristen and David Middlemen, who are the 515 00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:38,119 two brilliant PhDs that run that lab down in Texas. Kristen made it clear 516 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:43,199 to me no, she said, no, you're misunderstanding all of the Colonial 517 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,000 Parkway murders. They have offered to test any evidence we have from any of 518 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:52,239 these four incidents in the Colonial Parkway murders at no charge. So at this 519 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,559 point, just like Joyce said, what's the hold up here, they have 520 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,800 offered to test everything for free because they know how dedicated these families have been 521 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,199 to seeking answers. I think we're running out of excuses here. And when 522 00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:12,679 I say we the FBI and the Virginia State Police enough already, Like Joyce 523 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,000 said, what are we going to do? Wait till the families die off 524 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:22,760 completely? These are solvable cases. They're considered evidence rich. If we put 525 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,119 the time, attention, and resources into these cases, they can be solved. 526 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,960 Let's work together to do that. That was the best place I can 527 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,840 think of to end this, Joyce. Over the next couple of months, 528 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,880 we will be giving out information with regard to this service that we're going to 529 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,920 do for Keith. Is that going to be for public consumption or is that 530 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,480 meant to be a private family thing? In other words, If we have 531 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:49,159 supporters who would like to come share their support for your family, could they 532 00:40:49,159 --> 00:40:52,239 do? They are very welcome. Yes, yes, we especially encourage any 533 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:59,039 of Keith and Sander's old close friends. We would love to hear some stories 534 00:40:59,079 --> 00:41:00,679 to make us laugh. That would be wonderful. But yeah, no, 535 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:07,599 they're definitely welcome. We will keep everybody posted and thank you. That's going 536 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:10,880 to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. As we have additional 537 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,079 information about all of the Vince and the memorials, we will start putting that 538 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:19,519 up on our social media. Thank you so much for listening to this episode 539 00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:31,760 of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 540 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:37,920 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 541 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:44,320 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme 542 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,519 music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral 543 00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:53,639 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. You 544 00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:59,400 can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook and finally, 545 00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:04,280 you can allow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you 546 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,039 for listening to Mind Over Murder