1 00:00:17,719 --> 00:00:21,519 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski, 2 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:24,440 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,160 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on ax at fdr LST, 4 00:00:28,399 --> 00:00:31,600 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,359 the premium version of our website, The Federalist dot com as well. We 6 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:39,880 are joined today by author Jeremy Carl, who's out with a new very well 7 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:46,640 timed book called The Unprotected Class, How anti white Racism is tearing America Apart. 8 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,119 You can follow Jeremy on ax at Real Jeremy Carl. He also has 9 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,880 a new substack out. It's Jeremycarl dot substack dot com. The substack is 10 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,359 called The Course of Empire. Jeremy, Welcome to the show. Thanks so 11 00:00:58,439 --> 00:01:02,159 much showing me on. I believe I'm really excited to just start with what's 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:10,640 in the news right now, because I'm curious how you will explain what's why 13 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:14,120 what's happening? Well, let me say why or why not not to give 14 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,319 you a leading question, but why are we not what's happening on campuses like 15 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:22,879 Columbia and Yale right now illustrates the thesis actually that you advance in this book, 16 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,319 the unprotected class. Yeah, I mean, that's actually great because it's 17 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,120 funny. I haven't actually been asked that much about this in that context, 18 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:37,239 but you're very correct to see the connection because there is I mean, what's 19 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:41,920 particularly happening with these Jewish students. There is actually some just pure anti Semitism 20 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,560 going on there for sure, but a lot of this, particularly for the 21 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,719 non Arab, non Muslim students who are involved, is kind of downstream. 22 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:55,959 The anti Semitism is really downstream from anti white racism or anti white feelings. 23 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:00,239 And I think the interesting thing is you're seeing more and more pep in the 24 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:04,400 Jewish community kind of understand that, whereas sometimes I felt like I was talking 25 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,920 to a wall and making this point, you know, a couple of years 26 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:12,280 ago. But but so I think people are understanding that that it's like in 27 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:15,280 the political context, the Jews, the Israelis. I mean, it's this 28 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,280 is particularly deceptive with the Israelis, but you know, they're the white guys, 29 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,159 and the Palestindians are not the white guys, and therefore the Jews are 30 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:25,319 the very bad guys and that's just sort of how the morality play is playing 31 00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:31,319 out. Yeah. No, that's really interesting actually because Bill Ackman, for 32 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,719 example, after October seventh, he saw what happened with Claudine Gay, and 33 00:02:36,039 --> 00:02:39,400 he had supported Claudine Gay, I think as a member of the Harvard what's 34 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,240 the Harvard Corporation or something like that, and he backtracked. He said, 35 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,639 I didn't realize what DEI actually actually meant. And so Jeremy, this is 36 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,800 another question. Oh, go ahead, go ahead. I didn't realize the 37 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,719 face eating monkeys were going to eat Maya face, right, you know, 38 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,680 that's like when I joined the face seating monkey party. That's the sort of 39 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,039 frustration that I have with that. But could have foreseen nobody, nobody could 40 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,800 have seen this coming. But actually, that's a really good question for you, 41 00:03:06,439 --> 00:03:10,800 is where specifically should people have been looking. I mean, it sounds 42 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,080 obvious to a lot of conservatives because they saw this playing out on college campuses. 43 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,879 For years. Fox News would do these, you know, campus craziness 44 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:21,879 segments, and then the world just moved on and everybody would just pretend that 45 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,520 it was its natural ecosystem. It would stay confined within the boundaries of that 46 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:30,560 ecosystem, and of course that's not what happened. So why should people have 47 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,840 known that it was going to leave the zoo? Basically, well, it's 48 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,280 just these people, you know, It's just like the sixties radicals, right 49 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,840 like first they're on campus and then they're kind of running everything. And I 50 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,199 mean, in many cases we've almost cycled through the first generation of that and 51 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,639 now we're onto the next generation. But this is a this is an old 52 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:52,319 problem. I mean, just to kind of date myself a little bit, 53 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,120 but also to kind of indicate how old this problem is. I went to 54 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:59,879 Yale as a freshman in nineteen ninety one and I put on my dorm room 55 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,759 a cover from I believe it was Newsweek magazine, I'm pretty sure, and 56 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:10,360 it said, like, political correctness is invading America campuses? Is it the 57 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,680 New Enlightenment or the new McCarthyism? And you can still find that cover. 58 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:15,120 I mean, that magazine still exists. I didn't make it up, but 59 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,360 it's just to say that we're calling it something slightly different. But these issues 60 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:24,079 were really there, and they kind of had a predictable valance in a particular 61 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,040 way they were going to go. Even in the nineteen nineties, but it 62 00:04:28,079 --> 00:04:31,040 even goes back further. I mean, I talk about in my book just 63 00:04:31,079 --> 00:04:36,800 to show the way that the discourse has really been constrained. So the nineteen 64 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,160 sixty five Immigration Act, the heart Seller build that kind of radically changed America's 65 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:47,439 immigration policy. People really did not quite expect in Congress for it to happen 66 00:04:47,879 --> 00:04:51,399 in the way it happened. And I actually dug through in some primary research 67 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:57,439 a New York Times archive and found a story from nineteen sixty eight where congressmen 68 00:04:57,439 --> 00:05:00,439 were like, WHOA, we didn't really mean to do it of this, 69 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,920 but we don't want to do anything about it because we're worried we'll be called 70 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:09,519 racists. So that's nineteen sixty eight that like, this same dynamic is playing 71 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,199 out. So this is a long game that we've been playing well. And 72 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,399 Neille famously was the subject of basically the first mainstream I started calling attention to 73 00:05:17,439 --> 00:05:20,680 this. And I'm really curious too, Jeremy, for your perspective, because 74 00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:28,199 that was the specter of communism, is what William F. Buckley was arguing 75 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:31,199 against that. And your book is blurbed for blurb black by Chris Rufo, 76 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:38,639 who makes this argument that the push for communism that started happening in academia ultimately 77 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:43,319 metastasized, or that was sort of the germ of the oppressed oppressor dichotomy. 78 00:05:44,079 --> 00:05:48,279 You talked to us Jeremy about your perspective on that question, is is it 79 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:54,079 communism that's the germ of this? Because you also write about immigration, you 80 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,839 bring a lot of cultural topics in what do you think happened? Yeah, 81 00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:00,560 I mean, I think that's a piece of it. I'm weary to make 82 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,519 it too big a piece, and I mean I'm certainly not going to go 83 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:09,519 full James Lindsay on this. And I like James, but like like a 84 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,759 really interesting guy to like read the intellectual history of a lot of obscure things, 85 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,920 the phenomena on the left that actually probably had more effects than you thought. 86 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,680 But I do think that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and 87 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:28,120 sometimes like anti white racism is just anti white racism. So this is just 88 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,560 kind of like there is absolutely an element of what Rufo talks about with and 89 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:35,959 his book is very good, you know, the oppressed oppressor dynamic, this 90 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:41,839 sort of leftist academia, Marxism, cultural Marxism. I mean, I think 91 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,759 those things all exist, and they are all a piece of it. But 92 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:50,199 I think there's also just a piece of different groups competing for resources tail as 93 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:56,439 old as time. And you know, the sociologist Cewright Mills, who was 94 00:06:56,439 --> 00:06:59,879 a kind of very famous mid twentieth century sociologist, kind of came up with 95 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:03,839 the notion of a legitimating ideology, which is kind of say, like, 96 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,360 when you want to seize power, you need an ideology. Do you actually 97 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:12,600 convince people or at least yourselves, that there's some justice in what you're asking 98 00:07:12,639 --> 00:07:15,079 and that you're not just taking stuff from people? And I think that ultimately 99 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,120 a lot of this stuff is just a legitimating ideology among you know, to 100 00:07:20,319 --> 00:07:27,160 justify resource confiscation of various types that people want to do anyway. And let's 101 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,920 bring immigration in because again it's a part of the book and it's one of 102 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:33,959 your big sort of focuses actually in general. And a lot of people might 103 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:41,680 think, Okay, so there's this anti white racism ideology that is proliferating throughout 104 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:47,399 maybe elite institutions. What does immigration, what does America's sort of status as 105 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:53,879 this beacon of you know, what is the gem acosta? He recited the 106 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:59,720 poem from the Statue of Liberty to art against Trump losses. I go into 107 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,920 that a little bit of the book, not a costa, but the poem 108 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,360 itself and its origins. Right, So bring immigration in here for folks who 109 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:09,319 haven't yet got a copy of the book again, the unprotected class to understand. 110 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,879 Yeah, no, it's great, and the book is actually hitten tomorrow, 111 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,040 so you can order your copy now. But it's you can't understand on 112 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:24,319 this problem without understanding immigration. Both because I think without the Heartseller Law of 113 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:28,319 nineteen sixty five, the demographic changes in the US would not have happened to 114 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,720 have made this the level of problem that it is. I also think that 115 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:37,200 if we're going to ever solve this problem, when key recommendation I have is 116 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,519 we've got to move to something close to net zero immigration over a period of 117 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:43,679 time. And that doesn't mean forever, but it just means we need to 118 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,120 take a breather. We need to assimilate, for lack of a better term, 119 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,000 the folks that we have and figure out what a new, more unified 120 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,039 American culture looks like with the people that we have here. That's not going 121 00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:00,159 to happen if we just continue to send millions and millions of more people US 122 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,600 an uncontrolled border, or frankly even millions of legal immigrants. It's just it's 123 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,080 not sustainable. So that's a key piece. And I think there's the other 124 00:09:07,159 --> 00:09:11,320 key piece, which is there is an element of the immigration debate that kind 125 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,320 of says, oh, you know, this great replacement ideas, you know, 126 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:20,039 it's racist, it's not legitimate, that has suggested that it is wrong 127 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:28,159 an immoral for white Americans to like want to not see the America you know, 128 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,240 dramatically diversify away from them, that there's something illegitimate about that, and 129 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,279 that's certainly something that I reject. I mean, I think there's all sorts 130 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,399 of problems with a high degree of diversity, period, and there's no reason 131 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:48,000 that anybody should have to endorse their own replacement as the predominant demographic group in 132 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:50,799 any country. I mean, it doesn't have anything to do with like whites 133 00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:54,960 in America. It's just like Chinese and China, Nigerians and Nigeria. I 134 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:00,200 would make the same argument, So all the more Nigerians in America might not 135 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:01,360 be the worst thing in the world. No. No, In fact, 136 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:05,320 I talked about you know one of the things for the kind of people who 137 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,399 will obsess about anti black racism. And of course I'm not saying that anti 138 00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:13,440 black racism obviously existed in the past. I think this still today in places. 139 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,840 But if you were to take Ebo Americans, for example, which is 140 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:24,879 a large subset of the Nigerian immigrants here, they would have a higher education, 141 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,799 income, you know, whatever profile than white Americans. So if you're 142 00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:33,559 kind of positing that there's some you know, really systemic thing going on that's 143 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,000 that's punishing people just for being black, you have a hard time explaining the 144 00:10:37,039 --> 00:10:41,879 success of Ebo Americans or many other groups you could do. Ghanian Americans. 145 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:48,080 Can I talk about this all in the book, And I'm also one of 146 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:52,720 the things I find difficult, especially especially when thinking about how these ideologies have 147 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:58,159 taken root among younger people. Jeremy, how much of this is conscious, 148 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,399 you know, anti high white racism in the same way that there was very 149 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,960 conscious you know, Jim Crow laws, anti black racism, actual slavery. 150 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:11,919 We can keep going back, but some of it to me seems as though 151 00:11:11,919 --> 00:11:18,679 people have been conditioned to accept what is blatantly anti white racism without even understanding 152 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,159 where they're going. I think some people actually are just blatantly anti white and 153 00:11:24,279 --> 00:11:26,799 right racist. But it does seem to me like there's a powerful component of 154 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,000 it that is we've been conditioned to kind of accept it. No, I 155 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,440 think you're absolutely right, and I think you as particularly you're a generation at 156 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:39,799 least down for me in age. I mean, I think you kind of 157 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:43,519 probably have. I didn't grow up with as much of that, and I 158 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,759 think you probably grew up with a lot more of it. Certainly when I 159 00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:50,000 talked to like younger conservative activists in their you know, sort of early twenties, 160 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,840 or even when I talked to my older kids who are teenagers, you 161 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,679 know, I sort of see some of this in just like it's in the 162 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,320 water, right. It's not even as you say, it's not not even 163 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,919 almost intentionally racist. It's just we've like, oh, that's just how things 164 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:09,279 are. And I think there's a degree to which, you know, we've 165 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,320 just grown to accept things that shouldn't be acceptable. And now, actually, 166 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,480 thankfully you have groups like America First Legal, Stephen Miller's outfit, which I 167 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:22,039 think is probably the most effective group that's come out of the Trump administration that 168 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:24,799 is beginning to look at some of these issues, particularly in the legal realm, 169 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:31,480 where there's just like blatantly racist and illegal anti white discrimination going on, 170 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,879 and they're beginning to challenge these in courts, and the people are in general 171 00:12:33,879 --> 00:12:39,679 either folding their policies or they're losing in court because what they're doing is illegal 172 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,279 and wrong. But we've sort of been so conditioned to just accept it as 173 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,639 like that's how things should be. And you actually, so we talked about 174 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:50,159 immigration, there are a couple of other things that you bring into this or 175 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,840 I guess cultural. It's not just cultural, but it's the left priorities. 176 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,600 And I want to talk to you about the green movement, the career energy 177 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:03,240 movement, because I'm sure, Jeremy, if you were probably telling people I'm 178 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:07,720 working on a chapter in my book about anti whiteness on environmentalism, it might 179 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:11,759 be like, what do you mean anti whiteness and environmentalism? But it's super 180 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:15,480 interesting. Yeah, well this is actually sort of and maybe I wouldn't have 181 00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:18,919 readen this chapter except that I kind of my professional training and what I was 182 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,639 even doing in the Trump administration is not you know, in the field of 183 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,519 worry about race relations. It just sort of it became a thing where, 184 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,840 gosh, it's a really big problem, and I've just you know, found 185 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:31,679 myself writing more and more about it. But my graduate and academic training was 186 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,159 all in environment and resource policy, so I'm very familiar with this, and 187 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,360 I talk a lot in the book. I go through this whole thing with 188 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,120 not only I was attacked at the Department of Interior for all sorts of by 189 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,159 the left and left wing congressmen and the media they Washington Post and all these 190 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,480 people about things that had nothing to do with my work at Interior, but 191 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,519 because they did not like the fact that I had called out some of these 192 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,320 things in my writing. But you go to the Era Club, the which 193 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,879 I kind of talk about a lot, and is this is the biggest grassroots 194 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:11,159 environmental group in the country, and it's just like it is truly like Stalinist 195 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:18,960 show trial, Maoist cultural revolution level you know, self hatred, like you 196 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,399 know, the things that they were putting out and particulate. The height of 197 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,879 the George Floyd kind of in Broglio is just I mean, it's kind of 198 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:31,480 insane. You know, Oh, where we apologized to like every minority person 199 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:37,200 who's ever lived, and we're all completely guilty of horrible white privilege and we're 200 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,080 all murderers, and I mean it's like, really it's almost impossible to believe. 201 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,879 I almost kind of wonder whether I should have Twitter cashed the web pages, 202 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,559 because I mean it's so insane that it's hard to believe that it could 203 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,600 even have happened. And where this kind of ended for Thisierra Club is they 204 00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:58,039 literally wrote a blog post the head of this Zero Club called tearing Down Our 205 00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:01,960 Monuments, where they kind of been to John Muir, who's their founder, 206 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,559 for being racist, which I mean they're two things right. One, John 207 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,879 Muir was for his time a racial progressive overall. I mean, he didn't 208 00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:15,399 have twenty first century views on immigration or race, but you know, he 209 00:15:15,559 --> 00:15:20,360 was not some reactionary on these issues. Secondly, I mean it's like I 210 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:22,960 would say, it's like the US canceling George Washington, but it's way more 211 00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:28,000 insane than that, because John Muir is like the central figure in the Sierra 212 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:35,679 Club, and yet he's canceled because he doesn't meet the appropriate racial criteria of 213 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,120 today. And it's just I mean, really, you kind of have to 214 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:43,360 read all this stuff to appreciate how crazy things have gotten. And of course 215 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,639 this is all just a it's a compensation for the fact that the green movement 216 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:54,759 remains overwhelmingly white and they feel like in terms of the participants, and they 217 00:15:54,759 --> 00:15:56,600 feel really bad about that, and they're worried that they're going to lose political 218 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,960 power because of that, and for that reason they need to just constantly rail 219 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,960 on how terrible white people are, even when it has seemingly nothing to do 220 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,080 with their actual work. And that example is interesting because your point about John 221 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:18,960 Muir being a racial progressive for the time isn't there's something so depressing and sad. 222 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,679 I remember in twenty twenty there was a statue of an abolitionist that was 223 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,639 torn down in my home state, and this was at the University of Wisconsin. 224 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:32,000 A statue of an abolitionist was torn down because, you know, in 225 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:37,000 the case of John muiror he didn't have twenty first century racial perspectives. And 226 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,000 that's what's so sad to me is basically, no society or culture ever has 227 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:45,720 like what we achieved in the nineteen nineties. You know, I think of 228 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:48,759 that as maybe the peak decade. I'm curious what you think of this, 229 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,759 Jeremy, and maybe the two thousands. What we achieved is the United States 230 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:57,159 of America in terms of pluralism, has never been seen at scale like that 231 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,759 before, where you had high level and there's so much polling, you know, 232 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:07,519 in a racial marriage or support for it exploding, opposition to it dissipating. 233 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:12,480 What we had achieved here that we're now backsliding away from rapidly was actually 234 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,440 incredible. And it's not to say that the writing wasn't on the wall and 235 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:22,519 universities, but basically, it's never at the scale, has never existed before, 236 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,599 and it's the left that's throwing it all away, right. I think 237 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,440 the eighties and nineties really were kind of a peak time. I think of 238 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,599 my childhood in the eighties and it was like Michael Jordan is the big sports 239 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:38,640 star, and Eddie Murphy is the big movie star, and Michael Jackson is 240 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,880 like the big singer, and it's just sort of like, and again, 241 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,799 I don't want to be so trite as to say, oh, well, 242 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,480 race didn't matter, right, but I do feel like we like when I 243 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,559 tell younger people, I'm like, race relations by Annie Stretch were way way 244 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:56,480 better back then than they are today. Even if I think you can fairly 245 00:17:56,559 --> 00:18:00,480 argue that perhaps the seeds of destruction were already being planted at that time, 246 00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:07,640 but it is worth worth mentioning that just because things have gotten so crazy in 247 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,079 the introm and it's you know, it's just really it's unfortunate. Yeah, 248 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,119 And for me, so I think I mentioned this on another podcast recently, 249 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:21,599 but we I started rewatching Malcolm in the Middle recently and it's incredible. The 250 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,880 show deals with race, but it's incredible how much healthier it is in this 251 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,880 sort of like primetime sitcom for sitcom format, because it's just it's not perfect, 252 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,039 but it's so much healthier. And to me it was I was in 253 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:40,440 college when the Trayvon Martin controversy erupted, and you write about that in the 254 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,480 book. For me, that's when I've just had this like visceral feeling of 255 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:48,319 whoa, this something just changed. It feels like a switch flipped, and 256 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,400 it really did. And I should I should add, I mean it was 257 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,839 the Trayvon Martin case, although I don't think that that was probably the origin, 258 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,680 right the the these sorts of things, as I write in the book, 259 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,519 they don't spreading like Athena fully armored from Zeus's head, you know, 260 00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:07,440 and ready for battle, right these ideas like they've just stated for a time, 261 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:11,640 But definitely trayvon Martin in twenty thirteen was the beginning of what's so called 262 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,759 the Great Awokening, or maybe that was twenty fifteen. Was thirteen or twenty 263 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:18,680 fifteen? Can I remember which? I thought? Twenty twelve? Okay, 264 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,480 so yeah, twenty twelve was treyvon Martin and then twenty thirteen you have hands 265 00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:27,839 up, don't shoot in Missouri. These are kind of the early cases around 266 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:33,680 crime where you have the so called Great Awokening, which is a play on 267 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,839 words for the Great Awakening, where these are these historical religious revivals in America, 268 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,720 but we begin to get very religious about the question of race. So 269 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:48,359 I don't actually have a perfect explanation for why. And this is my next 270 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,319 book. I think I'm going to kind of look at this. Among other 271 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,799 things, some of it was probably Obama being elected for a second term, 272 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,200 feeling like he could let his freak flag fly a little bit more now that 273 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,880 you didn't have to worry about being reelected. But I don't think, I 274 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,440 mean, that's a little too convenient in need, I think there had to 275 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:10,359 be a lot of other stuff that was going on under the surface, changing 276 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:17,599 demographics, changing political ideologies. But you do see this dramatic change in polling 277 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,599 right around twenty twelve twenty thirteen that has continued to this day where people just 278 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,720 get crazier and crazier on the race issue and particularly on anti whiteness. Your 279 00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:32,440 chapter on the military is terrifying, and I'm probably not the first person who 280 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:33,880 told you that. In fact, you probably find it terrifying, hear me. 281 00:20:34,039 --> 00:20:41,559 But it raises this question of why a country would intentionally undermine its military. 282 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,599 Why the country would intentionally undercut military readiness. You know, no other 283 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,680 country, China, forget it, they would never. But so that's kind 284 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,200 of a two part question. One if you could tell us a little bit 285 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,359 about I think some people know high profile stories Mark Milly talking about white rage, 286 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:02,279 whatever else, But what's happening. And then why a military would intentionally 287 00:21:02,319 --> 00:21:06,559 weak in itself. Well, it's a good question, and it's a relevant 288 00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:07,960 question, and it is scary. And I have one of my kids, 289 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,880 one of my teenagers, is very interested in the military, but he's also 290 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,799 kind of very aware of these issues, and he still is kind of wanting 291 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:18,359 to go forward, and I'm not discouraging him from doing that as long as 292 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,400 he's doing it with his eyes open, which is that he is not going 293 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,000 to be on a level playing field when he gets there, and hopefully we 294 00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:30,920 can address this. I don't think that this is intentional, because as you 295 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,319 point out, like why would somebody do it intentionally? I just think the 296 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:41,119 fact that we're in such a severe situation, even in something that is so 297 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,880 core to our existence as the military, should show just how serious the problem 298 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,720 is getting, Like we just we can't correct. It's like the junkie who 299 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,720 just needs one more hit and it just doesn't matter what the consequences are. 300 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,039 That's what they're going to do. I think that's what you really have going 301 00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:59,720 on. So what you've seen is with this kind of orgy of anti white 302 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:06,960 poule and Discriminatorytory promotion and hiring, is whites are looking at this and they're 303 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,440 opting out. And so you're seeing in a five year period, white recruitment 304 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:15,559 went down. I'm banking on the number all of a sudden, whether it's 305 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:19,440 twenty five or forty percent, but really substantially over a five year period, 306 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,880 whereas everybody else's recruitment was pretty much flat. So I mean, that's problematic 307 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:27,480 in and of itself, that would be hugely problematic. But why it's particularly 308 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:32,880 problematic, as I talked about in the book, is that whites are disproportionately 309 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,240 the tip of the spear so called in our military. So they're the most 310 00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:38,559 likely to be in special forces, they're the most likely to be in combat 311 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:45,720 roles. So you're disproportionately taking out the group of people who have been your 312 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:51,039 most important and most active soldiers, sailors, airmen, et cetera, and 313 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:55,240 you're telling them we're not really wanted. One of the heartening things in the 314 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,440 book that I kind of document is that there's a number of pushbacks that are 315 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,359 going on to this from people who are like, yeah, I grew up 316 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,279 in the Third World, and like, I don't buy any of this white 317 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:10,440 oppression bs, you know, from kind of the rank and file pushing back. 318 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,079 But yet at a general level, like at the officer level, where 319 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,759 this is really happening, it's still full steam ahead, and it's certainly under 320 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:23,039 the Biden administration is fully doubled down on this sort of thing. I forget 321 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,839 if that's the chapter you open with a Biden quot or if it's another, 322 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,039 but it's a Biden quote from what the seventies were. Yeah, it's the 323 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:37,240 reparations chapter where he says like he's not going to feel responsible for anything that 324 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:41,680 happened three hundred years ago. And it's kind of shocking when you have the 325 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:45,599 amazing thing about Biden if we actually had anything other than a fake media, 326 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:52,240 as the kind of regime media. Biden's career has been so long that it 327 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,519 shows the absurd contortions of the Democratic Party on this issue, because you can 328 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:00,640 go back to like early to mid seventies Biden, he's like way to the 329 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,359 right of the modern GOP on a lot of this stuff, not only on 330 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:08,480 forced bussing in schools, which was like his signature issue in which he was 331 00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:15,200 probably to the right of me even on the issue of forced bussing, but 332 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,839 just everything, you know, anything looking like reparations. I mean, it 333 00:24:19,079 --> 00:24:22,920 just shows that Biden is an empty shell a but it also shows how much 334 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,400 the Democratic Party has changed rapidly in the half century plus that he's been in 335 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,440 public life. Well, I was also going to ask you about that, 336 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:36,640 because where does it go? You know, that's appropriately opening the reparations chapter. 337 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,200 I think it seems like we're hurtling towards some sort of effort at national 338 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,200 reparations. It's happened on a local scale already, as you know, sort 339 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,279 of unthinkable as it sounded to a lot of people for a long time. 340 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:51,200 It's really it's being experimented with on the local level. You see the arc 341 00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:55,200 of Biden. But also you were telling me before we recorded, Jeremy, 342 00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,039 that was it. The Biden rapid Response team was like needling you for some 343 00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:03,079 thing that you said over the weekend. And it's almost like they see this 344 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:10,000 as good politics because the media is so complicit that it'll buy their spin and 345 00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:15,079 you don't have an option really to push back without being called racist. Yeah, 346 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,400 absolutely no, if it's the Biden rapid Response team, which is there. 347 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:22,839 You know, part of the Biden campaign went after me and Charlie Kirk 348 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:26,559 for a show I did with with Charlie last week where we talked about the 349 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:30,480 Civil Rights Act and we were critical of where it is today. And they 350 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,519 said, Charlie Kirk, you know, and my implicit thing, me you 351 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:36,000 know, wants to appeal the Civil Rights Act. I'm like, huh, 352 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,240 that's interesting, Like I actually don't want to. I don't think we should. 353 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,559 I've offered say we need to fundamentally reform it in some major, major 354 00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:45,839 ways, but I haven't called further pial. So then I actually listened to 355 00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:48,920 the excerpt and I'm like, Okay, yeah, I didn't say that, 356 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,839 did Charlie. But you know, it's sort of indicative that the truth is 357 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,400 like very optional for the left these days. If anything, it's almost a 358 00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:00,480 and they will go after you. And honestly, if they weren't going after 359 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,359 me, I mean when I saw that, I felt great. I'm not 360 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,759 like, oh my gosh, somebody called me a racist. I'm like, 361 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:07,559 yeah, that's right, I'm over the target. That's how it should be. 362 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,279 This book is going to get attacked a lot, as Charlie was pointing 363 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:12,799 out, and it should be, not because it's a bad book, but 364 00:26:12,839 --> 00:26:18,200 because it's really taking on a really germane issue in which the left has tried 365 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,920 to tightly control the discourse. But what we're beginning to see in these last 366 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,880 couple of years is that people are beginning to break out of that control. 367 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,440 And I really wrote this book to kind of hopefully be at the leading edge 368 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,680 of leading a revolution on that issue, that we don't need to buy the 369 00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:38,799 left false narrative on race. Yeah, that's actually when you were talking about, 370 00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:41,480 actually when you're talking about the military and people who maybe moved to the 371 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,960 United States from a third world country or something like that, pushing back. 372 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,839 It reminded me of what I heard from parents in Lowden County when at the 373 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,440 Federals we were doing some reporting out there back in twenty twenty. It was 374 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:59,720 actually a lot of minorities immigrants who were just deeply offended by what they heard 375 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,680 these classrooms from critical race theorists and so Jeremy, do you think are you 376 00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:15,079 optimistic that enough Americans are animated by their opposition to CRT sort of that broader 377 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,680 ideology whatever you want, woke to CRT, whatever it is, this neo 378 00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:25,960 racism essentially, are you optimistic that they can sort of break through the elite 379 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:32,039 regime's refusal to have that conversation without tiring everybody, whether they're black or Asian, 380 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,279 or Hispanic or white or racist. Well, I mean, I think 381 00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:38,720 it is It is encouraging that you're seeing some of this pushback, and not 382 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:42,759 only in my book endorsement as you mentioned Rufo, but I've got Tucker, 383 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:47,759 I've got Charlie Kirk, I've got Victor Davis Hanson and other kind of conservative 384 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:51,359 stalwarts. But I also, you know, kind of have a multiracial cast 385 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,200 of characters. I have Peter Keerson now remy a wonderful endorsement. He's the 386 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,799 longest ever serving member of the US Commission on Civil Rights, African American Republican. 387 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,039 I've got guys like sorb Sharma heading up American moment, you know. 388 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,920 So, like I was definitely conscious about not just speaking to a white audience 389 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,799 in doing this. At the same time, it is awesome that we have 390 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,039 these folks, and I saluted it. I think it makes me more optimistic 391 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,599 about the future of America. At the same time, part of the reason 392 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:22,240 I wrote this book is to convince white people that they need to be able 393 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,200 to speak up in their own defense. Like it's not okay to just, 394 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,240 you know, say this great thing, but like we've got to hide behind 395 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,119 a minority person to say it because we're too scared to say it ourselves. 396 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,160 Like that's not sustainable. And it was actually kind of funny. I sort 397 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,359 of relate. I think in the book At one point when I asked what 398 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,599 I told people I was writing this book, they said, well, that's 399 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,200 great. I've looked at me a little as scance, but they're like, 400 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,119 well, that's good. But you know, I think it would be better, 401 00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:53,079 ironically, in the light of least developments, if Candice Owens had written 402 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,440 right to this book. But the idea being that, like, it just 403 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,680 shouldn't be a white guy, and I actually think, no, it's actually 404 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,119 really important that it is a white guy who writes this book, because I 405 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:07,079 don't need to apologize for not being a doormat, for standing up for myself. 406 00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:10,880 And you know, I'm not doing this to complain to the ref So 407 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,640 I'm trying to rally the troops and say, for all Americans, but particularly 408 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,960 for white Americans, we should not find this acceptable. Yeah, in my 409 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:22,359 perspective on that until recently, because you would hear, you know, on 410 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,119 the right, there'd be fringe people picking up on some of these very legitimate 411 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,079 examples from college campuses for years, and until very recently, my response was 412 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:34,160 basically crocodile tears, like, yes, this is probably on principle incorrect, 413 00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:38,279 but you know, crimea river, like there was actual chattel slavery in this 414 00:29:38,319 --> 00:29:41,799 country for decades there was Jim Crow. So the white people now getting a 415 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:47,880 taste of their own medicine for you know, a couple of years or in 416 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,319 a couple of isolated cases. You know, is it wrong? Is whatever's 417 00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:53,440 being taught wrong in principle? Yes? But you know, is it the 418 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,640 biggest seal in the world now? But what we've seen is it become totally 419 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,279 metastasized, become a dominant elite ideology that's running institutions. So at this point 420 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,359 it seems like it is entirely well, obviously you agree with me because you 421 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,960 wrote a book about it. It seems entirely fair to say, like, 422 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:17,640 actually, what we're about to do is throw generations of blood that was spilled, 423 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:22,160 hard work, incredible progress out the window for the sake of what this 424 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:29,480 like, absurd neo racism essentially. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more 425 00:30:29,559 --> 00:30:33,079 right, And I just point out, even when you for both religious and 426 00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:38,079 other reasons, I kind of reject the idea of a reparations, particularly to 427 00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:41,680 somebody who is not directly harmed. I think when you're dealing with somebody who 428 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,400 has direct and visible harm, like that's a different question. But like I 429 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,960 reject that kind of root and branch. But even if you accepted it, 430 00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:55,440 there's a whole host of social programs that we've had in America over many, 431 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,079 many decades that have functionally, you know, functioned as reparations effectively, whether 432 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,279 or not they should have. So in some level, the kind of reparations 433 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,720 debate gets a little bit fake, and that kind of reparations are already here, 434 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,119 but we're now just talking about doing much more dramatic and much more silly 435 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,720 things. And I was actually just seeing something from another independent member of the 436 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:22,880 US Commission on Civil Rights who tweeted out to her surprise, although I don't 437 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,839 know why, she was surprised that California is really going full hog with this 438 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,880 to the point that they're going to like assess whether a black person has the 439 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,799 appropriate amount of actual slave ancestry to be eligible for I mean, that's where 440 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,839 we're at, right or it's going to be like if you're Chinese American, 441 00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:44,240 like was your family directly impacted by the Chinese Exclusion Act of the eighteen eighties, 442 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:47,319 right, Like you could see where this goes, Like, you know, 443 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,359 did the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo directly sees, you know, lands from 444 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,400 your mestizo ancestors, right, like, there's when you have the wrong principle, 445 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,440 there's really no limit to where you can go with it. Your great 446 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,680 great great great grandfather on the Alamo, right, right, No, exactly 447 00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:07,799 right, that's and that's where we go. And this is you know, 448 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,519 Thomas Soul has written, he's written a lot about this, and he was 449 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:15,440 one of the main inspirations for this book. Twenty years ago when I was 450 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,400 living in India and seeing a lot of these same types of issues but with 451 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,759 different groups of people as the victim class and the perpetrator class put in and 452 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,880 I was reading Soul at the time. His book Affirmative Action Around the World 453 00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:30,240 kind of had a big influence on me. But you know, he talks 454 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:36,839 about Soul talks about how the quest for cosmic justice inevitably leads to greater injustice. 455 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:39,359 And so it's not to say that there of course, of course America's 456 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:43,640 hands are not clean. Historically, no people's hands are clean. But if 457 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,160 you attempt to get this sort of cosmic justice, it will be much worse 458 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,160 for everybody involved. I have the PDF of your book pulled up in front 459 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,319 of me. But I actually have this hard copy of the as well as 460 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,680 Soul written for me as well, and that's sort of where I wanted to 461 00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:02,559 maybe bring all of this together. Jeremy is you know, there's the Christopher 462 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,839 Christopher Caldwell argument and agement tittlement, there's you know, Hanania has made arguments 463 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:14,880 in this space. Where do you stand on if there were to be, 464 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,400 let's say, for the sake of hypotheticals, a Trump presidency or maybe even 465 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,480 a Rondes Santis presidency and they seize controls of the administrative state. You know, 466 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:32,160 I shouldn't say sees, but they peacefully assume the administrative peacefully protesting as 467 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,519 they take over the administrative state. So you've actually been a part of this 468 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,160 our federal bureaucracy, so you have some insider knowledge of how all of this 469 00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:45,880 works, what needs to be done, what can be done. I assume 470 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,000 you agree it has to be at the federal level. In fact, is 471 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:51,079 in the book at the federal level. Yeah, it is at the federal 472 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,960 level. And it's a problem. I managed a ten thousand peerson federal bureaucracy 473 00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:58,839 and it was weird because it was COVID, so I couldn't even see most 474 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,640 of them, but be you know, probably nine nine hundred of them were 475 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,440 trying to undermine me in some way. Right, So, like I think, 476 00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:12,320 unless you address the federal bureaucracy and the federal laws directly, I think 477 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,360 there are limits to where you'll get. And I think an area in which 478 00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:17,519 I don't want to say that I differ with Caldwell and Hanania, but I 479 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:22,719 would not go as far as them as I think they have done a great 480 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,880 job of putting attention on these civil rights laws, for example, and I 481 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,239 think that's totally warranted. I have an entire chapter where I do the same. 482 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,000 But I think it's important to also realize we could get rid of every 483 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,199 single one of these laws and regulations in America, and it would not get 484 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,639 rid of the problem, okay, because it's it's deeply embedded. At this 485 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:44,000 point, I'm not trying to say we shouldn't do it, because I think 486 00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:50,039 ultimately it's a necessary kind of fundamental reform of these laws and institutions is a 487 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:53,400 necessary step to get where we need to get, but it's not a sufficient 488 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,320 step in of itself, and laws are also only worth what people are going 489 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,559 to enforce them. The best exact of this that I can really point to 490 00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:07,159 and why I'm not just kind of a legalist about this, California has twice 491 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:12,079 outlawed affirmative action in its universities, and the last time it did it in 492 00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:15,920 the same election where Joe Biden was carrying sixty three percent in California and every 493 00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:21,159 politician in California had endorsed the pro afirmative action side, and it's still lost. 494 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:22,559 It didn't even lose by that little It was on like fifty six to 495 00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:28,000 forty four. And yet, for those of us who have followed, and 496 00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:30,239 my friend yng Ma has kind of worked on these campaigns over twenty years, 497 00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:36,480 for those who followed, what's actually happened in universities when affirmative action was outlawed. 498 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,639 I don't want to say that like if you squint, you can't see 499 00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:43,639 a difference, but like, basically the university has just ignored it and did 500 00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:47,440 what they wanted to do anyway. And so that's why I caution an excessive 501 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,320 focus on laws, even though I do think we need to reform them as 502 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,920 an important piece. And you know, I was going to leave it there, 503 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,760 but I actually that brings me to another question I feel like you have 504 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,159 a good answer to because you sort of got into that a little bit earlier 505 00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:06,360 when you were talking about how, you know, Thomas ol has made some 506 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:12,760 brilliant arguments and has been absolutely pillar Reid and you know, been targeted by 507 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,840 racist smears, just like you know people like Jason Riley. You know, 508 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:22,920 they've been out there doing this. But you know, it's like for Republicans, 509 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:27,280 terrifying Republican politicians, elected Republicans and even you know, maybe people on 510 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,639 local school boards, whatever, it's a terrifying space to go into because for 511 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:36,239 good reasons, there's basically nothing more stigmatized in America than being a biggot. 512 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,760 So maybe for a candidate, and I don't know if you could apply that 513 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,159 more broadly, but how should Republicans people in the culture space people in the 514 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:51,320 politics space? Is your advice? You know, bold colors not pill pastels, 515 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,320 to quote Ronald Reagon, just sort of if you look like you're stepping 516 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,920 tepidly into this argument, you look like you're apologetic and ashamed of what you 517 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:02,199 think about it. Yeah, I think in general it is, And I 518 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,639 mean, obviously I wrote the book for a reason, And really that's why 519 00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:07,920 I wrote the book, to say, like, we shouldn't be ashamed, 520 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:14,239 to encourage people to that there's nothing not only is there nothing wrong with these 521 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:20,719 arguments, these arguments are profoundly correct and in keeping with our most fundamental traditions, 522 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,480 values, and goals, and our opponents are not. They're very bad, 523 00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:27,400 and we should call them out without shame. And we can do that 524 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,199 also as white people, particularly, although again I didn't just write the book 525 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:34,360 for white people, but I wanted to do that as a white guy. 526 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,760 So I think it is important. And I will say, you know, 527 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,639 when I started to write this book a couple of years ago, I was 528 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,559 like, ooh, this tightrope is awfully narrow, and that's you know, 529 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:50,239 alligators down there in the pit. Even just in a couple of years that 530 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,000 I've written this, I mean, you will hear guys like Tucker or Matt 531 00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:57,119 Walsh, or Charlie Kirk or even just you know other folks. They will 532 00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:00,079 say the words anti white or anti white racism. So I think the environment 533 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,760 has improved, not in terms of like what the crazy people on the left 534 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,000 are doing, but I think the crazy people on the left have gotten so 535 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:10,000 crazy that people on the writer are like, actually, you know what, 536 00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:13,840 we just we kind of hate it, but we need to stand up for 537 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,960 ourselves. And again, look, I hope if people are listening to this 538 00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:21,840 conversation, they're like, Wow, this guy sounds great and I want to 539 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,239 go buy his book. He's got it, He's got it right. Believe 540 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,880 me, if you know anything about the economics of selling books, it won't 541 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,800 make a big difference in my financial life. But I would encourage you, 542 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,440 even if you're maybe not totally convinced, if we're going to have these sorts 543 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:43,119 of conversations, you know, buying books like this is a signal to kind 544 00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:45,480 of the elite publishing world and other people. Oh, you know, people 545 00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:49,000 are actually interested in this issue and perspectives. We're going to go find other 546 00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:52,199 people who can talk about this. And so it really does make a difference 547 00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:55,400 for people to you know, if they buy the book, or if they 548 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,360 read the book, if even they borrow a friend's copy and then talk about 549 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,719 it with friends. You know, said it's a readership issue as much as 550 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,800 it is a sales issue. It makes a big difference. And I think 551 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,760 that we don't want to be obnoxious, and I try not to be. 552 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,320 I've really I've said in this to other people, like I didn't write this 553 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,679 for the edgiest edge lord you know out there who's like super online. I 554 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,000 mean, they will learn things, and I've given it to a couple of 555 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:24,679 them and they learned a lot of things. But I wrote it so that 556 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:29,079 they could take it to their mom or dad who's maybe not even fully convinced 557 00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:31,360 or is convinced that if they talk about this type of an issue, that 558 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,599 they're a very bad person, and that it's really justifacts me on type approach, 559 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:39,400 and that a fair minded person will look at this evidence and find it 560 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,000 persuasive that we need to change course from what we've been doing. You know, 561 00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:45,400 I've never had we have authors on the show almost every day, and 562 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:51,119 actually nobody's ever made that argument about the cultural space. But it's absolutely true. 563 00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:54,320 Publishers look at these numbers and they're so meaningful, and even just having 564 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,639 these conversations in your individual lives, like I caught sometimes voting in the cultural 565 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,599 war. You don't always get to vote for the best candidate, but you 566 00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:06,960 can actually cast votes in the culture war every single day, and buying books 567 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:09,840 is one great way to do that. Yeah, and I told you before. 568 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,400 I got a call from my publisher right before I went on saying, 569 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,800 hey, this is doing really well. I think we're going to do a 570 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,440 second printing even though the book is not out yet. So it does make 571 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,960 a difference that I guarantee when they look at you know, it's a very 572 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,719 mainstream publisher I'm out with, like whether they're going to do another book in 573 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,280 this space, it matters a lot, And so we can influence by the 574 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,159 choices that we make as consumers. Just it's not just bud Light Boycott's. 575 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:39,159 It's what we positively choose to buy and consume, whether that's Robin DiAngelo or 576 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:45,480 Jeremy Carl. Yeah, there's no right white rural rage in this book. 577 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:50,360 Although I am white. I live in Montana and I'm angry, so you 578 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,719 know, maybe maybe, but it's you know, it's I try to be 579 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,079 fair in the book, and hopefully that will come across to the readers. 580 00:40:59,079 --> 00:41:02,679 The very problematic archetype all in one place there too. Yes, yes, 581 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,119 I am the avatar of evil, I'm afraid. Well, the book again 582 00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:13,639 is called the Unprotected Class. How anti white racism is tearing America Apart. 583 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,679 You can follow Jeremy on accep Real Jeremy Carl and also you can check out 584 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:22,119 a substack called The Course of Empire that's at Jeremycarl dot substack dot com. 585 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,000 Jeremy, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks so much, eway a 586 00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:28,400 great conversation. Really appreciate it. You've been listening to another edition of The 587 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,599 Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Tashinski, culture editor here at The Federalist. 588 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:34,760 We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and 589 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:42,320 anxious for the frame. All right, you