1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:49,439 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,280 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas. As I was getting ready to figure out what 11 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:56,399 I was going to put for this intro, I had Drew Carey in my 12 00:00:56,479 --> 00:01:00,560 head going to welcome to Whose line Is It Anyway? The show where everything's 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:07,760 made up and the points don't matter. So I very nearly said it. 14 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,359 When does Drew carry say that that's in front of Whose line is it Anyway? 15 00:01:12,439 --> 00:01:19,319 Which is probably one of the best TV series of the nineties and two 16 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,680 thousands. I don't think I'm familiar. Oh my gosh, how are you 17 00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:26,519 not. It is the funniest show going. I loved it, Okay, 18 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,879 It's a wonderful little improv show. And so they have four different actors and 19 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,239 a rotating round of guests like Robin Williams, for example, who would come 20 00:01:36,239 --> 00:01:38,560 in and they have a set of skits that you do, and they would 21 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,920 call the actors up on stage and they would tell them, Okay, here's 22 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,920 your skit, go to it acted out, and they would act it out 23 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,439 in front of a live studio audience. It was hysterical. It is possibly 24 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:55,000 one of the finest pieces of television that I can remember, and I am 25 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,519 absolutely desolate that they don't do reruns of it anymore. Oh wait, now 26 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,319 I can be able to find this now that You've got me all curious. 27 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,920 Honestly, I'm not sure. He's probably on some streaming service somewhere. I 28 00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:10,560 have DVDs of it because I'm old school and have a massive DVD collection. 29 00:02:10,719 --> 00:02:15,719 But it's hysterical. There is very few things that are guaranteed to make me 30 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,000 laugh that is one of them, and the show again, whose line is 31 00:02:20,039 --> 00:02:23,919 it anyway, It's actually based off of a British series of the same name, 32 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,800 although the American series is funnier and it sounds like the kind of actors 33 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:30,840 and comedians that would appear on the show are people that are strong on improv, 34 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:35,840 like yes and other people like that. Mm. So you'd have Wayne 35 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:38,879 Brady who could break into spontaneous song no matter what you do, no matter 36 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,400 what you ask him to do, Colin Mockery, Ryan Styles, and then 37 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,120 they would get major guest stars in there, and sometimes they bring in like 38 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:52,280 a random random celebrities, so like David Hasselhoff starred one day as a guest 39 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,680 star, so did Robin Williams. They Jerry Springer one day, like it 40 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:00,080 is very nineties and two thousand. I will seek you out. You should. 41 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,800 It's hysterical. But that is the standard intro, and so that's what 42 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,840 was in my head when I started with my own intro today. I did 43 00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:13,960 think you were awfully chipper this fine summer morning. Yes, I am awfully 44 00:03:14,039 --> 00:03:16,360 chipper. It is a fine summer morning. I know you're having terrible, 45 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,319 horrible flooding up there, but we're other than being caught in the heat bubble. 46 00:03:21,759 --> 00:03:23,199 I think that's what they're calling it, the heat bubble. Pretty good 47 00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:28,360 down here, nice and sunny, very pretty. And you're finally on vacation, 48 00:03:28,719 --> 00:03:30,159 Chippy Fairy, been on vacation for four weeks now, but yes, 49 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:36,960 a vacation. But whose family is My family is here. My family has 50 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,080 come to visit. So yeah, Now, I don't know if having family 51 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:45,319 visit counts as vacation or not. It doesn't technically, but I would like 52 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,039 to give a shout out to my dad, who's eightieth birthday is coming up 53 00:03:49,039 --> 00:03:52,639 in two days, and so we're having a big family reunion for my dad's 54 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,639 eightieth birthday. So now, oh, happy birthday Dad. Yeah, yeah, 55 00:03:55,879 --> 00:04:00,840 eighty. The old man is still kicking, doing great, and still 56 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,000 working, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, he has a produced business and 57 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:11,120 he provides produce to most of the restaurants in town. So he's constantly running 58 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,120 around doing things, hauling vegetables. He's very active, and so I am 59 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,319 hoping, knocking on wood that we're going to cut him for I don't know, 60 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:23,800 maybe ten twenty more years. He actually called me the other day and 61 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,199 said, I've decided I'm going to live till ninety. Okay, okay, 62 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,800 that's a good goal, all right, good goal. My dad also lived 63 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,959 to be ninety, so mom's already said she's going to live to be a 64 00:04:33,079 --> 00:04:36,439 hundred. So good for them. Yeah, they're going to manage it. 65 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,199 I think I'm assuming your daddy's lots of vegetables too, Yes he does. 66 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,720 Okay, there you go, stay active, stay healthy, and eat lots 67 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,759 of vegetables. Absolutely, onto more serious topics. This is a longer intro 68 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,759 than normal, but I think people like us enough that they'll forgive a little 69 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:57,600 bit of banter every once in a while, I hope. So we did 70 00:04:57,639 --> 00:05:00,879 want to jump in and do some final thoughts on Burden of Proof. We 71 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,040 hope you've been enjoying our coverage so far of that, and we were really 72 00:05:03,079 --> 00:05:08,639 pleased to be able to have investigator Wendy Reid, filmmaker Cynthia Hill, and 73 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:12,480 Steven Pando's brother Jennifer Pandos on the show. So we hope you've enjoyed our 74 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:15,040 coverage of that. But we wanted to take a couple of minutes and do 75 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:18,680 a final wrap up here and give our thoughts on the whole entire series as 76 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,720 we know it. You had asked me on the phone yesterday, Bill, 77 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,720 where are you in who you think actually did this? And I'm wafful in 78 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:31,079 hardcore, I really am. I guess I'm just not sure at the end 79 00:05:31,079 --> 00:05:35,600 of the day, after four episodes and talking with so many guests, I'm 80 00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:41,160 not sure where I stand on this, And I think it's because you had 81 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:45,560 mentioned and you had iterated it so much more gracefully than I have. If 82 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,920 you want to make an argument that the parents are involved, there's enough reasonable 83 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,879 doubt for the boyfriend that you're going to have a hard time making a conviction 84 00:05:51,959 --> 00:05:57,720 stick, and likewise for the boyfriend. So I guess I'm really not sure 85 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:00,800 where I'm at. There is enough reasonable held out for both, but I 86 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,319 know you have a strong conviction one way or the other, and so what 87 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,600 side do you come down on? Before I go there, let me just 88 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:15,680 say that I think some of this thinking was influenced by our conversation with Wendy 89 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,639 Read. And remember we, in addition to saying what people say on the 90 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:26,920 air, conversation before and afterwards usually yes, and sometimes in preparation for interviewing 91 00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:30,600 a guest. Forgive me, I'm not trying to hide anything that Wendy had 92 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:34,040 said. But Wendy had said something about the fact that Wearing her investigator, 93 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,600 had that this would be a tough case to get a conviction, because, 94 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,399 forgive me, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not saying Wendy said this exactly what my 95 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:49,120 takeaway was. It's almost like the two let's call them groups of leading suspects 96 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:56,079 almost cancel each other out. And Wendy Reid is a former investigator who was 97 00:06:56,199 --> 00:07:01,120 thinking, can I prove this with the help of the Commonwealth prosecutor and the 98 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,680 legal team, can I prove this beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of 99 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:10,759 law? And even the origin of the name here burden of Proof is the 100 00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:15,480 name of this HBO Max series. I come down after watching the four episodes 101 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:20,480 carefully and reading dozens of articles about this case and about this series, as 102 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:25,720 well as talking to Wendy, Cynthia Hill, Stephen Pandos, and others. 103 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,279 I'm in the camp that I believe that her former boyfriend Tony Tobler and his 104 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:38,680 wife Corey could be involved in the disappearance and likely homicide of Jennifer Pandos. 105 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:45,600 As we discussed on the podcast. I find the behavior of the pandos parents, 106 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,920 Ron and Margie incredibly frustrating and potentially incriminating because their behavior was just so 107 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:57,920 profoundly bizarre from my point of view, and I think I may be uniquely 108 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:03,480 qualified to make this stay. I understand that people under what is probably the 109 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:09,319 most stressful and excruciatingly painful experience of their lives, losing a child, adult 110 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:15,040 or minor, may do and say things that don't seem to make sense to 111 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,560 those of us that who haven't lived it. But I thought the Pandosi's comments 112 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:26,560 and behavior and just truly strange things that they did made them look guilty even 113 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,360 to this day. Yet I can't help but think that the person or persons 114 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:39,000 who had the greatest motivation to make Jennifer disappear were Tony Tobler and his wife 115 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:45,720 Corey. Let's not forget. I don't think it gets quite enough time in 116 00:08:45,759 --> 00:08:50,080 the documentary, and there's only four episodes. There had been a pregnancy the 117 00:08:50,159 --> 00:08:54,360 year before, and a fifteen year old girl pregnant with her sixteen year old 118 00:08:54,399 --> 00:09:01,039 boyfriend's baby. Back then and even now is very difficult situation to find yourself 119 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:07,600 in. And I cannot help but think that the distancing language that Tony used 120 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,080 in the interview segment his body language, his wife, Corey's body language, 121 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:22,320 their attempt to minimize the relationship between Tony and Jennifer, which seems to be 122 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:28,720 more than offset by these very intimate, passionate notes back and forth between the 123 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:33,559 two teenagers when they were a couple. Clearly, Corey and Jennifer were romantic 124 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:39,759 rivals for this young man. I'm not buying the way that Tony in particular 125 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:45,200 seems to minimize the relationship. Oh, it was only a couple of months, 126 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,799 and you know, I believe that's not factually correct. I believe there 127 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:56,039 is significant overlap between his having a relationship with up to an including sexual contact 128 00:09:56,159 --> 00:10:00,679 because we have a pregnancy in the middle of all of this. So I'm 129 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,919 not making any of this up. I believe his attempts to slough that off 130 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:11,519 are way less than convincing. And I think that I could easily see Corey 131 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:16,960 giving Tony an ultimatum, which is either she goes or I go, and 132 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,759 I could see him desperately making a decision that he had to kill her. 133 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:26,360 In his sixteen year old mind, that was a logical conclusion to Corey's potential 134 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,960 threats, and I could even see her being involved in a cover up of 135 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,759 Jennifer Pando's murder. And that's I think that's really where we get to the 136 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:39,200 crux of the matter here for me is that there is so much suspicious behavior 137 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:45,440 on both sides, and definitely the fact that he minimized his relationship with jen 138 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,320 when clearly it is not the case that it was, Oh, we just 139 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,360 dated for a little bit. No, my dude, it's more than that. 140 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,559 That is what I guess rings the most bells for me. But I 141 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,399 also can't get past to the fact that you have dad who is very clearly 142 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,200 emotionally abusive, probably physically abusive as well, and he made all those damning 143 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:13,879 statements up to and including hypothetically I killed her and pushed her down and she 144 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,399 hit her head or whatever. Who says that with relation to their daughter. 145 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,279 I don't understand that. For me, that was if we're looking at big 146 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,679 red flags here. On Tony's side, you've got the minimizing of the relationship, 147 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:31,440 pretending it's less than it was. And on mom and Dad's side, 148 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:37,879 you've got runs bizarre comments up to and including we'll get a plane, I'll 149 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:39,720 take you to her body right now. Again, who says that? I 150 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:46,360 think that was incredibly damning to say that. Now he did rican't, he 151 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,240 did back off, and he obviously didn't take them to the place where his 152 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:56,639 daughter, Jennifer's body could be found. But I did find that profoundly disturbing. 153 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,039 Now you've got when you take Charlie may And to account, who really 154 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:05,480 only showed up in the last episode, I don't know how much credence you 155 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,000 can give Charlie this idea of dissolving a body in acid. I was talking 156 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,000 to a friend last night who had watched the documentary series and he gotten done 157 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:18,279 any messaged me and he was like, that took a bit of a turn, 158 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,919 did it? And he said, look, you can dissolve a body 159 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:26,240 and acid in a bathtub and breaking bad, but I don't think you can 160 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,960 do it in real life. And then, because I'm a writer, because 161 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,399 I'm a podcaster, I did what I normally do when I need a question 162 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,799 answered about this. And I'm hoping that the FBI, when they look at 163 00:12:37,799 --> 00:12:41,200 my search history one day, we'll understand that is a writer and a podcaster. 164 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,279 This is stuff that I look up, but I looked up can you 165 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:48,360 dissolve a body in ass? Yeah? That is a little unusual, but 166 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:54,799 I will confess that my search history probably contains a lot of similar activity which 167 00:12:54,879 --> 00:12:58,600 I have not personally been involved in. Yeah. I'm hoping that the FBI 168 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,200 or whoever it is, that one day, theoretically we'll look at our search 169 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,320 history. I hope they can. There should be a filter that says I'm 170 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,759 a writer, not a serial killer. I'm a researcher, not a serial 171 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,120 killer. I'm not looking to dissolve bodies and ASCID. I just want to 172 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,919 know if you can. And actually, interestingly enough for anybody who wants to 173 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:22,039 know, can you There is a great article that I found and it's just 174 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:28,600 a little online periodical. It's an online periodical called Chemistry World, and I 175 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,559 found an opinion article from June twenty seventeen of Chemistry World called the acid bath 176 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:39,200 test, and it does discuss Hey, there have been killers over the years 177 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,279 that have used acid to destroy bodies, but did it work? And all 178 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:50,000 of them were caught because of paper trails, because the police were able to 179 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:52,519 track down like this person went to home depot and got a whole ton of 180 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:58,679 muratic acid and a big fifty gallon drum. But they also just said there's 181 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,720 always no matter how much acid you pour in on a body. I'm going 182 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:03,480 to try not to go into too many grewsome details here. Yeah, no 183 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,919 matter how much acid you pour on a body, there's still gonna be stuff 184 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,480 left over. There was a guy who managed to dissolve most of a body, 185 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,399 but there was still teeth, bones, and fat leftover, and that 186 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,320 required disposal as well. So the idea that like, you just stuff somebody 187 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,559 in a fifty gallon drum, pour a bunch of acid over it, and 188 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:26,279 it's good. According to this article, that's not how it works my understanding 189 00:14:26,279 --> 00:14:31,559 as well. Although you're the one that has been researching chemistry world. Yeah, 190 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,759 like I said, I'm hoping the FBI understands my search history again without 191 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:41,000 getting too graphic. A body consists of hard stuff and soft stuff. Yep. 192 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:46,200 My older brother, Richard is a doctor, would be groaning right about 193 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:54,320 now. But the hard stuff obviously doesn't go away. So teeth and bones 194 00:14:54,559 --> 00:15:01,039 and those hard parts are found decades later if they're still together, or if 195 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,279 there's enough of them. It could only take a tooth are friends in the 196 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,639 forensic world at Athram and other top labs around the country are solving cases with 197 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:16,399 as little as a bone fragment or a tooth and then extracting DNA from inside 198 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:22,120 those hard parts. So even if you were able to dissolve much of the 199 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,799 soft tissue that makes up a person's body and dispose of that, you still 200 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:33,159 have all these other elements of what make up the human body. Yeah, 201 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:39,000 and you still have a disposal issue with those hard parts. As gruesome as 202 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,240 it sounds, you'd still have to dispose of, let's say, the fifty 203 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,759 five gallon drums and the acid and the components of the human body that were 204 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:52,399 left behind. The Breaking Bad series ran from two thousand and eight to twenty 205 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:56,120 thirteen, and I've never watched it, So if you've watched it, you're 206 00:15:56,159 --> 00:15:58,879 going to have to fill me on it. Did you believe that? I 207 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,200 have never watched it either. It's always been on my list of programs I'd 208 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,000 like to watch. But remember Pamela, my wonderful and long suffering partner, 209 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:12,159 doesn't want to watch just true crime, so she usually looks for things that 210 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:18,159 are uplifting. She'd probably like to watch breakfast at Tiffany's one more time before 211 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,399 she'd want to watch something about dissolving Missing Love's body is an acid. Charlie 212 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:29,799 May have dreamed up the acid idea years later, but when I spoke to 213 00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:36,559 Wendy Reid, she said that Charlie May's story about this potential disposal of Jennifer 214 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:42,200 Pandos's body probably predates Breaking Bad by a number of years now. The idea 215 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:48,399 of dissolving human remains in acid has been around for many years, and it 216 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,759 has been done. As you pointed out. Yeah, if Charlie May, 217 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,039 who does not strike me as the most reliable witness ever, is making up 218 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,720 this story, Wendy Reid made the point when I asked her about it, 219 00:16:59,799 --> 00:17:03,960 is his story consistent over the years she believes that it is. That doesn't 220 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,359 mean that it's not made up. At least he's come up with the story 221 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,640 and he's sticking to it. Yeah. I don't know at the end of 222 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:17,119 the day, which of these two scenarios I believe more. I would say 223 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,759 that they are both probable, and I'm just honestly not I don't have enough 224 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,440 swaying me in one direction or the other to be able to come down on 225 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,960 one side or the other. So, even though I don't like to firmly 226 00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:33,480 straddle the fence on cases like this, that's honestly where I find myself right 227 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,640 now, which I'm sure is a little annoying from your standpoint too, But 228 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,319 I'm just I'm honestly not sure. I guess where I come down more than 229 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,319 anything else for this, what I take out of this, more than anything 230 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:49,799 else is just Stephen's story and how hard this has been for him, and 231 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:55,039 how maddening it must be not to have these answers for so long, and 232 00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:57,000 that's, of course a theme that we're both familiar with. I guess if 233 00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:00,119 I had to focus on any one thing that I got out of Burden of 234 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,680 Proof, it would be Stephen's story, with Jen's not I don't want to 235 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,559 say it's fallen into the background, because it hasn't, and I want justice 236 00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:14,079 for Jennifer and answers for her. When I think of anything from Burden of 237 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,160 Proof, I think of Stephen, and I think of what he said in 238 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,599 our last episode, which is in the absence of justice from my sister. 239 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:26,119 I just want peace. One thing in our discussion here worth focusing on two 240 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:32,599 principal groups that we think could be responsible for Jennifer's disappearance. I want to 241 00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:37,440 make it clear that it could be a third party. It could very easily 242 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:41,799 be someone who may be mentioned in the documentary or maybe hasn't been mentioned at 243 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:48,200 all. I do think the fact that King's Mill is a secured residential facility, 244 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:52,720 and as Steven pointed out on the podcast, even one of the two 245 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:59,480 gates was closed at eleven PM or midnight, leaving only one or at most 246 00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:03,880 two ways to legitimately gain entrance to the King's Mill property. I think that 247 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:11,079 it becomes challenging to narrow down to other potential suspects if you can't figure out 248 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,240 how they got on to the property at the same time how they got off 249 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:19,920 the property. Now, it's possible that Jennifer's remains could be somewhere within the 250 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,160 King's Mill property, and there's a lot of question as to whether the property 251 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:30,680 was properly searched. Although certainly cadaver dogs were used, they did hit on 252 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:37,440 the area under the condo where she lived with her parents, and that's not 253 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:42,119 ever adequately explained. People that we've spoken to don't seem to have an explanation 254 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,920 for it. Either. Now, dogs will hit on places. We've been 255 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,559 involved in cadaver dog searches before for a variety of reasons, and they are 256 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:59,359 there to smell decay, and they are supposed to only hit on a place 257 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,400 where a human being, that as a body has been placed. But there 258 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,279 could be a lot of different aspects to that, which could include by the 259 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:11,799 way, Jennifer being murdered or body being placed under the condo and then moved 260 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,160 at a later point, which could be hours or days or longer. It 261 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:22,279 is interesting that the dogs did hit on the crawl space area under the condo 262 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,240 and yet no remains were ever found there. There's discussion some of this isn't 263 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:32,880 completely satisfactory from my point of view as to whether the mill pond was properly 264 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,519 searched. And I don't even know if that's a body of water that you 265 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:41,000 can drain or if divers would have to be, nor how deep it is. 266 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,359 And then of course the James River is not far away as well. 267 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,680 Am I correct, that's right, there is a marina on property. I 268 00:20:47,759 --> 00:20:52,319 do agree with you, Kristen that my strongest takeaway of the series is the 269 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,119 focus on Stephen and his personal journey. And it was very interesting when Cynthia 270 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,240 Hill said, when they began creating this documentary, what's that now seven years 271 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,799 ago? It was never their goal for this series to be a who'd done 272 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:08,640 it? As she put it, it was to focus on Stephen Pandos and 273 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:15,279 his family, their loss, and their journey through this process. I don't 274 00:21:15,279 --> 00:21:18,319 think anyone anticipated they were going to be working on this documentary for seven years, 275 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,519 or that Stephen personally, together with his family, went through so much 276 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:29,559 in terms of his pursuit for justice for his sister, in answers for himself 277 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,200 and the rest of his family. And obviously at this point the series has 278 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:37,279 to end on a question mark because we don't have any answers in the Jennifer 279 00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:42,519 Pandos disappearance. We would encourage anyone who thinks that they have information about the 280 00:21:42,559 --> 00:21:47,400 disappearance of Jennifer Pandos to reach out to the James City County Police Department. 281 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,519 Any tip that you have, anything that you think maybe worthwhile, is definitely 282 00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:55,960 something that is worth calling in about. So please do make sure if you 283 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,480 are local and you have any information related to the disappearance of Jennifer pando that 284 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:04,160 you reach out to the James City County Detectives. You're listening to Mind over 285 00:22:04,279 --> 00:22:12,440 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 286 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,559 here at Mind over Murder, all right, moving on to our next area 287 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,000 of discussion here, are very interested to hear that the leading suspect in the 288 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:29,559 nineteen eighty two thailen al poisonings was found dead in his home over this past 289 00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:33,799 weekend. James Lewis, seventy six years old, was found dead in his 290 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,799 home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on Sunday. They do not suspect foul play 291 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,599 of any variety natural causes as far as they're aware. I'm going to quote 292 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:48,359 from the Independent here. The soul suspect and the thailanol poisoning murders that claimed 293 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,319 seven lives and led to changes in how OTC prescription drugs are manufactured and sold 294 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:59,519 has died. For anyone who's unfamiliar with the thailen all case, let me 295 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:04,359 just give you a real quick hit of background information here. The Utlennal murders 296 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:10,400 took place in October of nineteen eighty two. Bottles of tailannel around the Chicago, 297 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,519 Illinois area were laced with potassium cyanide that ultimately led to seven deaths, 298 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,039 including very tragically three deaths in the same family. The victims of the Thailannel 299 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:30,319 murders are Mary Kellerman age twelve, Mary McFarland aged thirty one, Mary Lynn 300 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Reiner age twenty seven, Paula Prince age thirty five, Adam Janis twenty seven, 301 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:44,160 his brother Stanley Janis twenty five, and Stanley's wife, Teresa Janis, 302 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,119 age twenty and all three of them died within a couple of hours of each 303 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:53,839 other. Police long suspected that the motive for the Thailennel poisonings was revenge, 304 00:23:55,039 --> 00:24:00,000 which I think is very interesting. Lead suspect James Lewis had a five year 305 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:06,079 old daughter named Tony. She died in nineteen seventy four after suitors made by 306 00:24:06,079 --> 00:24:11,519 the Johnson Company, which does make thailannel. Those suitors were used to fix 307 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:15,000 her congenital heart defect. Those suitors did tear and they led to her death. 308 00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:19,920 So a long running theory in the reason for the tailen All poisonas was 309 00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:26,000 ostensibly revenge against Johnson and Johnson James Lewis was never actually convicted for any of 310 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:32,279 the murders in the tailenn All case. What he was convicted for ultimately was 311 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:38,079 attempting to extort manufacturer Johnson and Johnson. He sent a letter claiming responsibility for 312 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:44,640 the deaths, and he demanded one million dollars of Johnson and Johnson to stop 313 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,000 the killing. For that crime, he was imprisoned and ultimately released in nineteen 314 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,839 ninety five, after which point he moved to Massachusetts and lived quiet life. 315 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:57,079 Now I'm going to push back on something that the Independent said, which is 316 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:03,359 that James Lewis was the soul suspect in the Thailand all poisoning murders. Lewis 317 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:10,079 was never convicted of actually being involved in the product tampering, all of which 318 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:17,079 are in the Chicago land areas in Chicago and suburban areas surrounding Chicago. Lewis 319 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,880 lived in the Boston area. I have been fascinated by this case since it 320 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:26,920 happened, and I am far from an expert, but I have talked to 321 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,480 a number of people about this case and done a fair amount of research over 322 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:36,799 the years. The FBI and the Illinois State Police and local law enforcement in 323 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,319 Chicago, together with other law enforcement agencies, were never able to prove that 324 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:47,680 James Lewis was involved in this product tampering. There is still a strong possibility 325 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,079 that Lewis took advantage of the situation. I don't doubt that James Lewis had 326 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:59,160 an agenda and that he wanted to strike out against the Johnson and Johnson company, 327 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,119 who was you said, manufactured and distributed thailand On, But many experts 328 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,559 feel that there's a possibility that he just stepped in when he saw that Johnson 329 00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:17,119 and Johnson was scrambling to recall every bottle of thailan All on product shelves, 330 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,640 grocery storers, pharmacies, you name it, in an effort to recall all 331 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,680 of that product to make sure that this product tampering and these ensuing deaths weren't 332 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,359 happening on a wider scale. But they weren't. It was only in the 333 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,119 Chicago area. They were never able to figure out how James Lewis was able 334 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:44,960 to conduct this product tampering, which would have involved opening these Tilnall bottles, 335 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:52,720 taking out the capsules, inserting cyanide in place of the acetamenofin, which is 336 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:56,839 the active ingredient in thailan hal and then buttoning them back up and then placing 337 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:03,759 them on pharmacy and grocery store or shelves. It has always struck me that 338 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,160 they were never able to prove that. Now they were able to prove that 339 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:10,640 Lewis wrote the letter and that he was attempting to extort the money, which 340 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,319 is what he was convicted for. Here it is, it's all these years 341 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:21,480 later, forty years, they still can't prove that he actually was directly involved 342 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,319 in the product tampering. So did he have an accomplice in the Chicago area 343 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:33,119 or how did this work? Now we've talked to some experts who think that 344 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,960 he is an extortionist, but he may not be a murderer. Very interesting. 345 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,200 This is a case that we have toyed around with covering on Mind over 346 00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:47,599 Murder. If you, all, our beloved listening audience, are interested in 347 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,279 having us covered the Thailand all murders, please do weigh in on our social 348 00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:55,400 media page and let us know we are happy to do some additional coverage on 349 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,960 this fun little piece of trivia for anybody poor and after the nineteen eighties. 350 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,279 If you have ever hated the tamper resistant childproof seal and the foil that is 351 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,759 on top of the tail in all bottles and ad bill bottles and every other 352 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,480 type of bottle. That is a direct result of the taile and all killings. 353 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:17,680 The FDA introduced anti tampering features on over the counter drugs, such as 354 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,440 that foil seal. I vaguely remember back in the day when it used to 355 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,880 be a screw bottle and then a little bit of cotton on the inside that 356 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,440 you would have to pull out, correct, But I don't remember. I 357 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,559 actually remember a time before the foil seal. The tailan All Bill was also 358 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,559 passed by Congress in nineteen eighty three, and that did make tampering with packaging 359 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:38,839 a federal offense, and that is a direct result of the tail in all 360 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:45,119 case. Johnson and Johnson, by the way, was I think correctly lauded 361 00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:51,799 for the most successful product recall ever. Every division of Johnson and Johnson. 362 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:56,160 It's a very large company. They manufacture all kinds of drugs and consumer goods. 363 00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:02,880 Every single employee available to Johnson and Johnson were sent out into the field 364 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,759 and over the course of a couple of days they collected every single bottle of 365 00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:11,480 Thailand all on every single shelf in the United States. It was actually a 366 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:18,480 pretty amazing undertaking. What I find fascinating is that they never found any tampered 367 00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:26,519 product beyond that small circle of pharmacies and grocery stores convenience stores in the Chicago 368 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:33,559 area. Very interesting. One of the things that's interested us is that we 369 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:38,599 were approached several years ago by a legitimate guy, a well informed individual who 370 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:45,519 has an alternate theory on the Thailand All murders. As Kristen asked, is 371 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:49,319 this the kind of thing you'd like to see us explore? We'd only be 372 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:55,079 interested in talking about this case or any other if we could bring some fresh 373 00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:00,319 perspective or new information. We certainly don't mind talking about the case. It's 374 00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:03,119 a fascinating case. It happened so long ago now over forty years, that 375 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,720 many people don't even remember the case or weren't even alive who might be true 376 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:12,440 crime fans. It was one of those situations where the entire country was almost 377 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:18,640 completely paralyzed by this because it was so frightening that you'd go to the pharmacy, 378 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,599 pick something up for a headache, bring it home, and you'd be 379 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,920 dead in a matter of a couple of hours. And as you mentioned, 380 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,799 Kristen, this situation with the young Janis family. Oh, that's awful. 381 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,279 Three people in the same family all died within hours of each other because they 382 00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:40,119 all shared a bottle of Thailand, all one of them. So I think 383 00:30:40,119 --> 00:30:42,599 it was Adam Janis. Adam Janis, he had taken the tailett all for 384 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:49,440 headache. I think it was he passed away relatively quickly after coming home and 385 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,240 from the hospital learning that their loved one had died. It was either the 386 00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:57,799 sister in law or the brother who took the tailet all because they had a 387 00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:03,279 headache from crying, and then one died and then the other dead right after 388 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,400 that, And I just I can't imagine what terrible feelings that family was left 389 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,480 with to lose not one, not two, but three people almost on the 390 00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:15,079 exact same day as a result of the same bottle contaminated to thailan all. 391 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:21,279 It's awful. I'm remembering properly. Last year, the surviving child of the 392 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:26,240 Janis family was actually featured on one of the investigative shows talking about the fact 393 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,240 that it's been forty years and there still hasn't been an arrest in the case, 394 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,759 and that was just heartbreaking. One thing that cropped up in the Boston 395 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:38,960 Globes coverage of Lewis's death, and the Globe has done a fair amount of 396 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,480 coverage because of course James Lewis lived in the Boston area for many years. 397 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,680 They covered something that I didn't remember seeing. The Boston Globe mentioned that the 398 00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:56,319 Chicago Tribune, in their coverage last year on the fortieth anniversary of the Thailan 399 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,559 Hall murders, mentioned that James lewis personal history, which is pretty twisted, 400 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,559 had included being charged in nineteen seventy eight with killing an elderly client while he 401 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:13,480 was working as a tax accountant. The charge was dropped due to a police 402 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,759 procedural error. I don't remember ever hearing that Lewis was involved in other potential 403 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:24,240 homicides. So that's a fascinating little tidbit which will now steer us back towards 404 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:31,440 rereading the Chicago Tribunes coverage which came up in the Boston Globe story about Lewis's 405 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,759 body being discovered. Lewis, by the way, was married and his wife 406 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,200 was out of town at the time of his death. Kristen, as you 407 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,880 mentioned, it appears for the moment anyway, that James Lewis's death appears to 408 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:51,559 be a natural one. They're suspicious sears for that very interesting sort of coda 409 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,240 to the Tail and All murders. We are very interested in covering it if 410 00:32:55,279 --> 00:33:00,119 you are lovely listeners would be interested in hearing us talk about it, So 411 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,640 please do let us know on our social media page how much interest do you 412 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,839 have in coverage on the Tallen All murders. Another big piece of true crime 413 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:14,039 news that happened just yesterday is the parole of Manson killer Leslie van Houghton, 414 00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:17,640 And because this is such a tremendous issue that we want to get into, 415 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,720 we are going to save that for a future episode, So do stay tuned 416 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:28,119 for an entirely separate episode on Leslie van Houghton seventy three, who was paroled. 417 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,519 She is one of only two surviving Manson killers who has received parole. 418 00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:37,480 There are still two others that are in custody and the others, including Manson, 419 00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:42,759 have since died in prison. We are going to cover that that particular 420 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,319 sticky wicket. When I put up an article on our Facebook page, we 421 00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:52,640 had any number of people who had a wide variety of opinions. So we 422 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,559 are going to take a little bit of time talk about the things that y'all 423 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:59,880 have said to us on our Facebook page about Leslie van Houghton's parole, and 424 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,319 we are going to weigh in with our two cents as well, so douce 425 00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:07,519 stay tuned for that in an upcoming episode. That's going to do it for 426 00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:10,840 this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 427 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:24,599 see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 428 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:30,559 Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our 429 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:36,559 logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 430 00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:42,440 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow 431 00:34:42,519 --> 00:34:45,599 us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page 432 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:50,960 on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill 433 00:34:51,039 --> 00:34:55,800 Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind 434 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,599 Over Murder.