You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin
Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas. As I was getting ready to figure out what
I was going to put for this intro, I had Drew Carey in my
head going to welcome to Whose line Is It Anyway? The show where everything's
made up and the points don't matter. So I very nearly said it.
When does Drew carry say that that's in front of Whose line is it Anyway?
Which is probably one of the best TV series of the nineties and two
thousands. I don't think I'm familiar. Oh my gosh, how are you
not. It is the funniest show going. I loved it, Okay,
It's a wonderful little improv show. And so they have four different actors and
a rotating round of guests like Robin Williams, for example, who would come
in and they have a set of skits that you do, and they would
call the actors up on stage and they would tell them, Okay, here's
your skit, go to it acted out, and they would act it out
in front of a live studio audience. It was hysterical. It is possibly
one of the finest pieces of television that I can remember, and I am
absolutely desolate that they don't do reruns of it anymore. Oh wait, now
I can be able to find this now that You've got me all curious.
Honestly, I'm not sure. He's probably on some streaming service somewhere. I
have DVDs of it because I'm old school and have a massive DVD collection.
But it's hysterical. There is very few things that are guaranteed to make me
laugh that is one of them, and the show again, whose line is
it anyway, It's actually based off of a British series of the same name,
although the American series is funnier and it sounds like the kind of actors
and comedians that would appear on the show are people that are strong on improv,
like yes and other people like that. Mm. So you'd have Wayne
Brady who could break into spontaneous song no matter what you do, no matter
what you ask him to do, Colin Mockery, Ryan Styles, and then
they would get major guest stars in there, and sometimes they bring in like
a random random celebrities, so like David Hasselhoff starred one day as a guest
star, so did Robin Williams. They Jerry Springer one day, like it
is very nineties and two thousand. I will seek you out. You should.
It's hysterical. But that is the standard intro, and so that's what
was in my head when I started with my own intro today. I did
think you were awfully chipper this fine summer morning. Yes, I am awfully
chipper. It is a fine summer morning. I know you're having terrible,
horrible flooding up there, but we're other than being caught in the heat bubble.
I think that's what they're calling it, the heat bubble. Pretty good
down here, nice and sunny, very pretty. And you're finally on vacation,
Chippy Fairy, been on vacation for four weeks now, but yes,
a vacation. But whose family is My family is here. My family has
come to visit. So yeah, Now, I don't know if having family
visit counts as vacation or not. It doesn't technically, but I would like
to give a shout out to my dad, who's eightieth birthday is coming up
in two days, and so we're having a big family reunion for my dad's
eightieth birthday. So now, oh, happy birthday Dad. Yeah, yeah,
eighty. The old man is still kicking, doing great, and still
working, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, he has a produced business and
he provides produce to most of the restaurants in town. So he's constantly running
around doing things, hauling vegetables. He's very active, and so I am
hoping, knocking on wood that we're going to cut him for I don't know,
maybe ten twenty more years. He actually called me the other day and
said, I've decided I'm going to live till ninety. Okay, okay,
that's a good goal, all right, good goal. My dad also lived
to be ninety, so mom's already said she's going to live to be a
hundred. So good for them. Yeah, they're going to manage it.
I think I'm assuming your daddy's lots of vegetables too, Yes he does.
Okay, there you go, stay active, stay healthy, and eat lots
of vegetables. Absolutely, onto more serious topics. This is a longer intro
than normal, but I think people like us enough that they'll forgive a little
bit of banter every once in a while, I hope. So we did
want to jump in and do some final thoughts on Burden of Proof. We
hope you've been enjoying our coverage so far of that, and we were really
pleased to be able to have investigator Wendy Reid, filmmaker Cynthia Hill, and
Steven Pando's brother Jennifer Pandos on the show. So we hope you've enjoyed our
coverage of that. But we wanted to take a couple of minutes and do
a final wrap up here and give our thoughts on the whole entire series as
we know it. You had asked me on the phone yesterday, Bill,
where are you in who you think actually did this? And I'm wafful in
hardcore, I really am. I guess I'm just not sure at the end
of the day, after four episodes and talking with so many guests, I'm
not sure where I stand on this, And I think it's because you had
mentioned and you had iterated it so much more gracefully than I have. If
you want to make an argument that the parents are involved, there's enough reasonable
doubt for the boyfriend that you're going to have a hard time making a conviction
stick, and likewise for the boyfriend. So I guess I'm really not sure
where I'm at. There is enough reasonable held out for both, but I
know you have a strong conviction one way or the other, and so what
side do you come down on? Before I go there, let me just
say that I think some of this thinking was influenced by our conversation with Wendy
Read. And remember we, in addition to saying what people say on the
air, conversation before and afterwards usually yes, and sometimes in preparation for interviewing
a guest. Forgive me, I'm not trying to hide anything that Wendy had
said. But Wendy had said something about the fact that Wearing her investigator,
had that this would be a tough case to get a conviction, because,
forgive me, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not saying Wendy said this exactly what my
takeaway was. It's almost like the two let's call them groups of leading suspects
almost cancel each other out. And Wendy Reid is a former investigator who was
thinking, can I prove this with the help of the Commonwealth prosecutor and the
legal team, can I prove this beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of
law? And even the origin of the name here burden of Proof is the
name of this HBO Max series. I come down after watching the four episodes
carefully and reading dozens of articles about this case and about this series, as
well as talking to Wendy, Cynthia Hill, Stephen Pandos, and others.
I'm in the camp that I believe that her former boyfriend Tony Tobler and his
wife Corey could be involved in the disappearance and likely homicide of Jennifer Pandos.
As we discussed on the podcast. I find the behavior of the pandos parents,
Ron and Margie incredibly frustrating and potentially incriminating because their behavior was just so
profoundly bizarre from my point of view, and I think I may be uniquely
qualified to make this stay. I understand that people under what is probably the
most stressful and excruciatingly painful experience of their lives, losing a child, adult
or minor, may do and say things that don't seem to make sense to
those of us that who haven't lived it. But I thought the Pandosi's comments
and behavior and just truly strange things that they did made them look guilty even
to this day. Yet I can't help but think that the person or persons
who had the greatest motivation to make Jennifer disappear were Tony Tobler and his wife
Corey. Let's not forget. I don't think it gets quite enough time in
the documentary, and there's only four episodes. There had been a pregnancy the
year before, and a fifteen year old girl pregnant with her sixteen year old
boyfriend's baby. Back then and even now is very difficult situation to find yourself
in. And I cannot help but think that the distancing language that Tony used
in the interview segment his body language, his wife, Corey's body language,
their attempt to minimize the relationship between Tony and Jennifer, which seems to be
more than offset by these very intimate, passionate notes back and forth between the
two teenagers when they were a couple. Clearly, Corey and Jennifer were romantic
rivals for this young man. I'm not buying the way that Tony in particular
seems to minimize the relationship. Oh, it was only a couple of months,
and you know, I believe that's not factually correct. I believe there
is significant overlap between his having a relationship with up to an including sexual contact
because we have a pregnancy in the middle of all of this. So I'm
not making any of this up. I believe his attempts to slough that off
are way less than convincing. And I think that I could easily see Corey
giving Tony an ultimatum, which is either she goes or I go, and
I could see him desperately making a decision that he had to kill her.
In his sixteen year old mind, that was a logical conclusion to Corey's potential
threats, and I could even see her being involved in a cover up of
Jennifer Pando's murder. And that's I think that's really where we get to the
crux of the matter here for me is that there is so much suspicious behavior
on both sides, and definitely the fact that he minimized his relationship with jen
when clearly it is not the case that it was, Oh, we just
dated for a little bit. No, my dude, it's more than that.
That is what I guess rings the most bells for me. But I
also can't get past to the fact that you have dad who is very clearly
emotionally abusive, probably physically abusive as well, and he made all those damning
statements up to and including hypothetically I killed her and pushed her down and she
hit her head or whatever. Who says that with relation to their daughter.
I don't understand that. For me, that was if we're looking at big
red flags here. On Tony's side, you've got the minimizing of the relationship,
pretending it's less than it was. And on mom and Dad's side,
you've got runs bizarre comments up to and including we'll get a plane, I'll
take you to her body right now. Again, who says that? I
think that was incredibly damning to say that. Now he did rican't, he
did back off, and he obviously didn't take them to the place where his
daughter, Jennifer's body could be found. But I did find that profoundly disturbing.
Now you've got when you take Charlie may And to account, who really
only showed up in the last episode, I don't know how much credence you
can give Charlie this idea of dissolving a body in acid. I was talking
to a friend last night who had watched the documentary series and he gotten done
any messaged me and he was like, that took a bit of a turn,
did it? And he said, look, you can dissolve a body
and acid in a bathtub and breaking bad, but I don't think you can
do it in real life. And then, because I'm a writer, because
I'm a podcaster, I did what I normally do when I need a question
answered about this. And I'm hoping that the FBI, when they look at
my search history one day, we'll understand that is a writer and a podcaster.
This is stuff that I look up, but I looked up can you
dissolve a body in ass? Yeah? That is a little unusual, but
I will confess that my search history probably contains a lot of similar activity which
I have not personally been involved in. Yeah. I'm hoping that the FBI
or whoever it is, that one day, theoretically we'll look at our search
history. I hope they can. There should be a filter that says I'm
a writer, not a serial killer. I'm a researcher, not a serial
killer. I'm not looking to dissolve bodies and ASCID. I just want to
know if you can. And actually, interestingly enough for anybody who wants to
know, can you There is a great article that I found and it's just
a little online periodical. It's an online periodical called Chemistry World, and I
found an opinion article from June twenty seventeen of Chemistry World called the acid bath
test, and it does discuss Hey, there have been killers over the years
that have used acid to destroy bodies, but did it work? And all
of them were caught because of paper trails, because the police were able to
track down like this person went to home depot and got a whole ton of
muratic acid and a big fifty gallon drum. But they also just said there's
always no matter how much acid you pour in on a body. I'm going
to try not to go into too many grewsome details here. Yeah, no
matter how much acid you pour on a body, there's still gonna be stuff
left over. There was a guy who managed to dissolve most of a body,
but there was still teeth, bones, and fat leftover, and that
required disposal as well. So the idea that like, you just stuff somebody
in a fifty gallon drum, pour a bunch of acid over it, and
it's good. According to this article, that's not how it works my understanding
as well. Although you're the one that has been researching chemistry world. Yeah,
like I said, I'm hoping the FBI understands my search history again without
getting too graphic. A body consists of hard stuff and soft stuff. Yep.
My older brother, Richard is a doctor, would be groaning right about
now. But the hard stuff obviously doesn't go away. So teeth and bones
and those hard parts are found decades later if they're still together, or if
there's enough of them. It could only take a tooth are friends in the
forensic world at Athram and other top labs around the country are solving cases with
as little as a bone fragment or a tooth and then extracting DNA from inside
those hard parts. So even if you were able to dissolve much of the
soft tissue that makes up a person's body and dispose of that, you still
have all these other elements of what make up the human body. Yeah,
and you still have a disposal issue with those hard parts. As gruesome as
it sounds, you'd still have to dispose of, let's say, the fifty
five gallon drums and the acid and the components of the human body that were
left behind. The Breaking Bad series ran from two thousand and eight to twenty
thirteen, and I've never watched it, So if you've watched it, you're
going to have to fill me on it. Did you believe that? I
have never watched it either. It's always been on my list of programs I'd
like to watch. But remember Pamela, my wonderful and long suffering partner,
doesn't want to watch just true crime, so she usually looks for things that
are uplifting. She'd probably like to watch breakfast at Tiffany's one more time before
she'd want to watch something about dissolving Missing Love's body is an acid. Charlie
May have dreamed up the acid idea years later, but when I spoke to
Wendy Reid, she said that Charlie May's story about this potential disposal of Jennifer
Pandos's body probably predates Breaking Bad by a number of years now. The idea
of dissolving human remains in acid has been around for many years, and it
has been done. As you pointed out. Yeah, if Charlie May,
who does not strike me as the most reliable witness ever, is making up
this story, Wendy Reid made the point when I asked her about it,
is his story consistent over the years she believes that it is. That doesn't
mean that it's not made up. At least he's come up with the story
and he's sticking to it. Yeah. I don't know at the end of
the day, which of these two scenarios I believe more. I would say
that they are both probable, and I'm just honestly not I don't have enough
swaying me in one direction or the other to be able to come down on
one side or the other. So, even though I don't like to firmly
straddle the fence on cases like this, that's honestly where I find myself right
now, which I'm sure is a little annoying from your standpoint too, But
I'm just I'm honestly not sure. I guess where I come down more than
anything else for this, what I take out of this, more than anything
else is just Stephen's story and how hard this has been for him, and
how maddening it must be not to have these answers for so long, and
that's, of course a theme that we're both familiar with. I guess if
I had to focus on any one thing that I got out of Burden of
Proof, it would be Stephen's story, with Jen's not I don't want to
say it's fallen into the background, because it hasn't, and I want justice
for Jennifer and answers for her. When I think of anything from Burden of
Proof, I think of Stephen, and I think of what he said in
our last episode, which is in the absence of justice from my sister.
I just want peace. One thing in our discussion here worth focusing on two
principal groups that we think could be responsible for Jennifer's disappearance. I want to
make it clear that it could be a third party. It could very easily
be someone who may be mentioned in the documentary or maybe hasn't been mentioned at
all. I do think the fact that King's Mill is a secured residential facility,
and as Steven pointed out on the podcast, even one of the two
gates was closed at eleven PM or midnight, leaving only one or at most
two ways to legitimately gain entrance to the King's Mill property. I think that
it becomes challenging to narrow down to other potential suspects if you can't figure out
how they got on to the property at the same time how they got off
the property. Now, it's possible that Jennifer's remains could be somewhere within the
King's Mill property, and there's a lot of question as to whether the property
was properly searched. Although certainly cadaver dogs were used, they did hit on
the area under the condo where she lived with her parents, and that's not
ever adequately explained. People that we've spoken to don't seem to have an explanation
for it. Either. Now, dogs will hit on places. We've been
involved in cadaver dog searches before for a variety of reasons, and they are
there to smell decay, and they are supposed to only hit on a place
where a human being, that as a body has been placed. But there
could be a lot of different aspects to that, which could include by the
way, Jennifer being murdered or body being placed under the condo and then moved
at a later point, which could be hours or days or longer. It
is interesting that the dogs did hit on the crawl space area under the condo
and yet no remains were ever found there. There's discussion some of this isn't
completely satisfactory from my point of view as to whether the mill pond was properly
searched. And I don't even know if that's a body of water that you
can drain or if divers would have to be, nor how deep it is.
And then of course the James River is not far away as well.
Am I correct, that's right, there is a marina on property. I
do agree with you, Kristen that my strongest takeaway of the series is the
focus on Stephen and his personal journey. And it was very interesting when Cynthia
Hill said, when they began creating this documentary, what's that now seven years
ago? It was never their goal for this series to be a who'd done
it? As she put it, it was to focus on Stephen Pandos and
his family, their loss, and their journey through this process. I don't
think anyone anticipated they were going to be working on this documentary for seven years,
or that Stephen personally, together with his family, went through so much
in terms of his pursuit for justice for his sister, in answers for himself
and the rest of his family. And obviously at this point the series has
to end on a question mark because we don't have any answers in the Jennifer
Pandos disappearance. We would encourage anyone who thinks that they have information about the
disappearance of Jennifer Pandos to reach out to the James City County Police Department.
Any tip that you have, anything that you think maybe worthwhile, is definitely
something that is worth calling in about. So please do make sure if you
are local and you have any information related to the disappearance of Jennifer pando that
you reach out to the James City County Detectives. You're listening to Mind over
Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back
here at Mind over Murder, all right, moving on to our next area
of discussion here, are very interested to hear that the leading suspect in the
nineteen eighty two thailen al poisonings was found dead in his home over this past
weekend. James Lewis, seventy six years old, was found dead in his
home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on Sunday. They do not suspect foul play
of any variety natural causes as far as they're aware. I'm going to quote
from the Independent here. The soul suspect and the thailanol poisoning murders that claimed
seven lives and led to changes in how OTC prescription drugs are manufactured and sold
has died. For anyone who's unfamiliar with the thailen all case, let me
just give you a real quick hit of background information here. The Utlennal murders
took place in October of nineteen eighty two. Bottles of tailannel around the Chicago,
Illinois area were laced with potassium cyanide that ultimately led to seven deaths,
including very tragically three deaths in the same family. The victims of the Thailannel
murders are Mary Kellerman age twelve, Mary McFarland aged thirty one, Mary Lynn
Reiner age twenty seven, Paula Prince age thirty five, Adam Janis twenty seven,
his brother Stanley Janis twenty five, and Stanley's wife, Teresa Janis,
age twenty and all three of them died within a couple of hours of each
other. Police long suspected that the motive for the Thailennel poisonings was revenge,
which I think is very interesting. Lead suspect James Lewis had a five year
old daughter named Tony. She died in nineteen seventy four after suitors made by
the Johnson Company, which does make thailannel. Those suitors were used to fix
her congenital heart defect. Those suitors did tear and they led to her death.
So a long running theory in the reason for the tailen All poisonas was
ostensibly revenge against Johnson and Johnson James Lewis was never actually convicted for any of
the murders in the tailenn All case. What he was convicted for ultimately was
attempting to extort manufacturer Johnson and Johnson. He sent a letter claiming responsibility for
the deaths, and he demanded one million dollars of Johnson and Johnson to stop
the killing. For that crime, he was imprisoned and ultimately released in nineteen
ninety five, after which point he moved to Massachusetts and lived quiet life.
Now I'm going to push back on something that the Independent said, which is
that James Lewis was the soul suspect in the Thailand all poisoning murders. Lewis
was never convicted of actually being involved in the product tampering, all of which
are in the Chicago land areas in Chicago and suburban areas surrounding Chicago. Lewis
lived in the Boston area. I have been fascinated by this case since it
happened, and I am far from an expert, but I have talked to
a number of people about this case and done a fair amount of research over
the years. The FBI and the Illinois State Police and local law enforcement in
Chicago, together with other law enforcement agencies, were never able to prove that
James Lewis was involved in this product tampering. There is still a strong possibility
that Lewis took advantage of the situation. I don't doubt that James Lewis had
an agenda and that he wanted to strike out against the Johnson and Johnson company,
who was you said, manufactured and distributed thailand On, But many experts
feel that there's a possibility that he just stepped in when he saw that Johnson
and Johnson was scrambling to recall every bottle of thailan All on product shelves,
grocery storers, pharmacies, you name it, in an effort to recall all
of that product to make sure that this product tampering and these ensuing deaths weren't
happening on a wider scale. But they weren't. It was only in the
Chicago area. They were never able to figure out how James Lewis was able
to conduct this product tampering, which would have involved opening these Tilnall bottles,
taking out the capsules, inserting cyanide in place of the acetamenofin, which is
the active ingredient in thailan hal and then buttoning them back up and then placing
them on pharmacy and grocery store or shelves. It has always struck me that
they were never able to prove that. Now they were able to prove that
Lewis wrote the letter and that he was attempting to extort the money, which
is what he was convicted for. Here it is, it's all these years
later, forty years, they still can't prove that he actually was directly involved
in the product tampering. So did he have an accomplice in the Chicago area
or how did this work? Now we've talked to some experts who think that
he is an extortionist, but he may not be a murderer. Very interesting.
This is a case that we have toyed around with covering on Mind over
Murder. If you, all, our beloved listening audience, are interested in
having us covered the Thailand all murders, please do weigh in on our social
media page and let us know we are happy to do some additional coverage on
this fun little piece of trivia for anybody poor and after the nineteen eighties.
If you have ever hated the tamper resistant childproof seal and the foil that is
on top of the tail in all bottles and ad bill bottles and every other
type of bottle. That is a direct result of the taile and all killings.
The FDA introduced anti tampering features on over the counter drugs, such as
that foil seal. I vaguely remember back in the day when it used to
be a screw bottle and then a little bit of cotton on the inside that
you would have to pull out, correct, But I don't remember. I
actually remember a time before the foil seal. The tailan All Bill was also
passed by Congress in nineteen eighty three, and that did make tampering with packaging
a federal offense, and that is a direct result of the tail in all
case. Johnson and Johnson, by the way, was I think correctly lauded
for the most successful product recall ever. Every division of Johnson and Johnson.
It's a very large company. They manufacture all kinds of drugs and consumer goods.
Every single employee available to Johnson and Johnson were sent out into the field
and over the course of a couple of days they collected every single bottle of
Thailand all on every single shelf in the United States. It was actually a
pretty amazing undertaking. What I find fascinating is that they never found any tampered
product beyond that small circle of pharmacies and grocery stores convenience stores in the Chicago
area. Very interesting. One of the things that's interested us is that we
were approached several years ago by a legitimate guy, a well informed individual who
has an alternate theory on the Thailand All murders. As Kristen asked, is
this the kind of thing you'd like to see us explore? We'd only be
interested in talking about this case or any other if we could bring some fresh
perspective or new information. We certainly don't mind talking about the case. It's
a fascinating case. It happened so long ago now over forty years, that
many people don't even remember the case or weren't even alive who might be true
crime fans. It was one of those situations where the entire country was almost
completely paralyzed by this because it was so frightening that you'd go to the pharmacy,
pick something up for a headache, bring it home, and you'd be
dead in a matter of a couple of hours. And as you mentioned,
Kristen, this situation with the young Janis family. Oh, that's awful.
Three people in the same family all died within hours of each other because they
all shared a bottle of Thailand, all one of them. So I think
it was Adam Janis. Adam Janis, he had taken the tailett all for
headache. I think it was he passed away relatively quickly after coming home and
from the hospital learning that their loved one had died. It was either the
sister in law or the brother who took the tailet all because they had a
headache from crying, and then one died and then the other dead right after
that, And I just I can't imagine what terrible feelings that family was left
with to lose not one, not two, but three people almost on the
exact same day as a result of the same bottle contaminated to thailan all.
It's awful. I'm remembering properly. Last year, the surviving child of the
Janis family was actually featured on one of the investigative shows talking about the fact
that it's been forty years and there still hasn't been an arrest in the case,
and that was just heartbreaking. One thing that cropped up in the Boston
Globes coverage of Lewis's death, and the Globe has done a fair amount of
coverage because of course James Lewis lived in the Boston area for many years.
They covered something that I didn't remember seeing. The Boston Globe mentioned that the
Chicago Tribune, in their coverage last year on the fortieth anniversary of the Thailan
Hall murders, mentioned that James lewis personal history, which is pretty twisted,
had included being charged in nineteen seventy eight with killing an elderly client while he
was working as a tax accountant. The charge was dropped due to a police
procedural error. I don't remember ever hearing that Lewis was involved in other potential
homicides. So that's a fascinating little tidbit which will now steer us back towards
rereading the Chicago Tribunes coverage which came up in the Boston Globe story about Lewis's
body being discovered. Lewis, by the way, was married and his wife
was out of town at the time of his death. Kristen, as you
mentioned, it appears for the moment anyway, that James Lewis's death appears to
be a natural one. They're suspicious sears for that very interesting sort of coda
to the Tail and All murders. We are very interested in covering it if
you are lovely listeners would be interested in hearing us talk about it, So
please do let us know on our social media page how much interest do you
have in coverage on the Tallen All murders. Another big piece of true crime
news that happened just yesterday is the parole of Manson killer Leslie van Houghton,
And because this is such a tremendous issue that we want to get into,
we are going to save that for a future episode, So do stay tuned
for an entirely separate episode on Leslie van Houghton seventy three, who was paroled.
She is one of only two surviving Manson killers who has received parole.
There are still two others that are in custody and the others, including Manson,
have since died in prison. We are going to cover that that particular
sticky wicket. When I put up an article on our Facebook page, we
had any number of people who had a wide variety of opinions. So we
are going to take a little bit of time talk about the things that y'all
have said to us on our Facebook page about Leslie van Houghton's parole, and
we are going to weigh in with our two cents as well, so douce
stay tuned for that in an upcoming episode. That's going to do it for
this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll
see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our
logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow
us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page
on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill
Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind
Over Murder.