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onto the show. Hey Hi, hello, Hardwood Knox listeners. I am
Damp Valley coming at you without my co host Andrew d Bailey. I am,
however too, I am super pleased. However, excuse me to be
joined by good friend, longtime colleague Bleacher Reports National MBA columnist Grant Hughes.
Follow him on Twitter at gt Underscore Hughes. As I say all the time,
he does not tweet often, but when he does it is gold.
Before we get started, we have what I thought would be a fun pod
for us to do today. Just want to shout out our sponsors that make
this podcast possible. That would be bet Online, dot Ag and Blue cho
You will be hearing from them momentarily so to help us out, you can
use those promo cos. Another quick housekeeping note the historical decade player ranking pods
that Adam Frammel and I are doing. We will get back to them next
week. But he told me advanced he was going to be busy this week
and we have nothing but time, so we're gonna We're gonna get through those
team by team. Don't you worry the Detroit Pistons fans. We have not
forgotten about you, Grant. How are you doing? Just living that quarantine
life? Got a home haircut, feeling good, not looking good, but
doesn't matter. Right scale of one to ten relative to the circumstances. How
did your wife do with the do it yourself haircut? Okay, so yeah,
I undersold it. So I paid her this compliment, And this is
the highest compliment you can pay to a home haircut, which is that unless
you were looking very closely, I'm not sure you'd know that a civilian administered
the haircut. So so that's that's that's the praise I can give it.
I feel pretty good about it. But I will also say that hats are
a larger part of my wardrobe than they once were, but overall, my
happiness level is high. Did you ask for one to ten? If it's
one to ten, I would give it an eight. Wow. Yeah,
I mean if you if you phrase it to her exactly that way, she'll
probably want to renew your vows right on the spot. I mean I pretty
much did so, although I didn't say eight. Maybe I should have given
the number, but but yeah, no, I listen. One of the
things you want to look for in a life partner haircut skills, because you
never know. Right look where we are today, you gotta you gotta think
about these things. That's something for me to keep in mind from my next
marriage to me. No, my wife is offered to cut my because I
complain about it. I'm on day as we record the sixty nine of not
having a haircut, and it's very not nice. I look like a fucking
porcupine because of the way I normally stop my hair and it grows out on
the side, not down. So I'm really just if you thought I was
ugly before, like I'm ugly af right now, and she's offered to cut
it. I'm just like, you're not going to do a good job,
Like, let's not go I don't want to be mad at you, Like,
let's not go through this. And she's like, yeah, I kind
of know, but you're bitching so much that I feel like I need to
offer. Yeah, you're gonna have to give in. I think you'll realize
it's just at some point, the equity you earn by entrusting and empowering her
to do this is worth is worth whatever level of bad the haircut is.
Yeah, I think once I get to like week ten, I think I'm
at my breaking point now, Like ten weeks is a long time. Who
goes ten weeks without a haircut, even when you're trying to grow your hair
out, the Lopez Twins. All right, fair enough, we do have
actual basketball to talk about, not because there is actual basketball happening, but
we came up with a concept where we want to imagine NBA players who are
basically sidekicks, maybe they're number three options at this point, that we want
to see in a number one role. Ord be cool to see a number
one role. Yes, maybe they're best suited in their current role, but
it would just be cool to see them take on more responsibility as the primary
guy for their team. We're not saying they need to be traded. This
is not a trade pod it could be on their current team. We're not
again, we're not even saying it should happen. It's just a fascinating case
study. And I think before this season a few of the players that might
have sprung to mind immediately would have been Bradley Beal, Pascal Siakam, Draymond
Green. Don't want to see Raymond Green be more of a primary ball handler
ever again without Stephen Curry on the floor, I will tell you that right
now. But now we've seen that from Beal with ball out, we've seen
that with Pascal Siakam just taking on more offensive responsibility without Kawhi Leonard there,
though, I think you could still argue there might be another level for him
to get too, since he does have Kyle Lowry and Fred van Fleet.
But that's the type of players that we're looking for, and so we each
have names written down. We're going to go back and forth and just cross
off as we go. So Grant, without further ado, who is the
first player that you selected? Well, I do have some further ado before
I get there, which is so when we were texting about this, and
I sort of like I sort of took the approach you did, but also
it seemed to me like implicit in the question was kind of you know,
what players do we think? And these are often second options, like you
said, are maybe being helped or hurt by their system or their situation,
but we're not sure because we can't just like you, pluck them out and
put them on another team and see what would happen. So guys that like
for me, but there are a lot of guys it's like, yeah,
you know, he's number two, what would it look like if you were
a top option? But it's also just guys that like I just kind of
want to know what their current situation or how it's affecting the way that they
play, and that might mean they're better or worse somewhere else, but I
kind of just want to find out. So my first guy is sort of
probably in the mold of what more like you were thinking of, which is
CJ. McCollum. And you know, I think everybody acknowledges he's just like
he's he's a really good, high usage, you know, get your own
buckets type of guy. But you know, there's in addition to sort of
a duplication of resources in Portland, I think he's always one of those guys
that gets brought up in a let's break up this group type of thing because
I think there is a sense that if he had his own team the whole
time, he might do okay or better than that. But but we're just
not sure really, And so what what's interesting to me about him with Portland
is that you know, he is in the eighty eight eighty eighth percentile or
above among guards in usage rate. So that's with Dame Lillard like he you
know, he gets his touches and he's a little bit above average from an
efficiency perspective, for his position. I'm just using cleaning the glass for this,
so there might not be more there, But I'm interested to see if
if he were put in a position where he had to be more of a
facilitator, if he was someone that, like you really entrusted to run pick
and roll all the time and you know, just had a higher leverage,
higher usage position, like what that would look like. And and he's an
interesting guy because he does so much mid range scoring and he's such a weird
has such a weird kind of crafty in between thing. He might be a
guy that like is a floor raiser, but doesn't you know, ever get
you to, you know, serious competitive levels if he's your top guy.
But he's someone that I'd be interested to see what that would look like.
That of Portland. Yeah, and I'd agree with you. He was on
my list two and they've i think staggered them him from Lillard a little bit
more in definitely this season. I'm not sure about last season. I can't
remember, but the returns have not been great since over the past five seasons.
In fact, the best Portland's offense has been with CJ McCollum on the
floor without Damian Lillard is the thirty eighth percentile in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen,
and so that could speak to a lack of depth on the Blazers. There
are a lot of things that go into that, and I tend to think
that if you put CJ. Mccollumb in that primary role, he would be
closer to a floor raiser than say like a zach Lavine, where he feels
more like a like a floor preserver, where he's just not going to elevate
you at all. He doesn't make his teammates around him him better, and
so I would be more insted to see that. And in part it does
seem like his game sort of clicks or becomes more valuable in the playoffs,
because you're talking about all the in between stuff that he could do. He's
never really though been saddled or needed to, I guess, be more of
a playmaker, and so I guess that would be the big question mark.
That's also why for people who think that the Blazers should just trade CJ.
McCollum, break up that backcourt, maybe get a wing in there, or
just a different type of player, it really just can't happen unless you know
you're packaging other stuff with him, if you're looking to make an upgrade,
or then you're looking to just completely restructure the team, because I don't think
anyone's trading for CJ. Mccolluman wants to see him as their number one,
because it feels like there would be limitations there. I would still like to
see it, though it feels like he has a would have a better chance
of succeeding than some of the other guys who have a larger influence or just
more playmaking responsibility within their offense. Yeah, I think I think his approval
rating to me, like among fans, which sort of informally seems really high,
like everybody kind of likes him. But I think that might change for
the worst if he would, say, you know, really high volume,
less efficient, not play a lot of defense, lead guard on another team.
So I think, as will be the case with several of these,
we can sort of fantasize about what it might be like if you were elsewhere.
But it sort of feels to me like he's actually in like the best
place he could be right now, other than unless, like you know,
if Portland had like a point guard that you know, could just lock up
whoever the tougher backcourt matchup was. But all things considered, he's in a
pretty good spot. I think at Tension Hardwood Knox listeners. With currently no
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Online. You're online wagering experts. Since I had c McCollum as well,
My next one is a healthy Klay Thompson. We've seen just what Draymond Green
can look like around fewer superstars, and I know he didn't really give a
damn this year, but it still just wasn't pretty for me. With Klay
Thompson, I feel like he's become underappreciated. And maybe it's because Golden State
has had so much star power. Maybe it's because the defensive splits are so
bizarre. But we know what he can do defensively. He's one of the
best on ball defenders in the NBA, and there is more to his game
than just being able to fire up off the catch super quickly. He has
a little bit of a post game. I think he can put his head
down and get buckets from scratch. You've seen him hit these pull up jumpers
off the dribble before. I don't know if he has necessarily another playmaking level.
Maybe that would be the big problem. But could you maybe see him
influencing an offense on a Devin Booker level or is that too ambitious for someone
like him? Well, so that's that's the question, one hundred percent.
That is the question is what does he do if he's got the ball a
little more basically and you know, famously whatever he is can score sixty points
with four dribbles or whatever. It is, so like few guys have the
ball less than he does. But there is there are some like encouraging signs.
You know, I was looking at his pick and roll efficiency as a
ball handler, and over the last four years he's never used more than seven
point two percent of his offensive possessions as a pick and roll ball handler.
So these are all incredibly small sample sizes, but eighteen nineteen he was in
the ninety eight percent dial in scoring efficiency as a pick and roll ball handler.
Seventeen eighteen he was really bad, But the two prior years sixteen seventeen
and fifteen sixteen, he was in like the top twenty five percent. So
the thread of his shot means that you know, if you're defending a pick
and roll, even in the mid range of those really rare, weird ones,
which actually he runs more of than most guys, you can't leave him.
You have to stay glued. And he's gotten really good at that little
pocket bounce pass. It's the reason that he can make are not you know,
he's not the guy that is going to swing it to the opposite corner
over the heads of three defenders who are taking one step in the wrong direct.
He's not like that kind of facilitator. But he would be serviceable.
I think as a guy that you know, primarily you want being Reggie Miller
just sprinting all over late ray Allen running everywhere, tying the defense and knots
and just catching and shooting. But I think he does have a little bit
more in terms of ball handling stuff. I don't know if the overall package
would be more valuable than what he's doing now, but I think there is
definitely evidence that he could be something more than he's been through obviously what's been
a ridiculously good career to this point. Yeah, they've accounted I shows have
accounted for so little of his offense that this probably isn't even worth mentioning.
But over the past four years he's only ranked below average and ISO efficiency wants,
and so maybe there is just a little bit more to plumb there.
I will say, are you at all or do you maybe maybe do you
attribute it to just the circumstances under which this season took place. Are you
at all surprised at how bad Draymond Green was this year? I mean,
I so, I guess I was always when Draymond was like had his peak.
I was always one of those guys that pushed back on the hes a.
He's a product of the system. I mean, obviously that's true to
some extent for him, maybe more so than most players, But to me,
when he was at his best, like where does his defense not fit?
Right? Like, where does a guy who can defend five positions and
pass and you know, grab and go off of defensive rebound and make the
right play, where does that not fit? I mean, that fits anywhere
any team would want that. But I think this year he was totally checked
out, which I get and he you know, is also the type of
player that's undersized and you lose the quarter step for him, and it's just
a devastating, you know, deterioration in his effectiveness because he just doesn't have
the athleticism to spare. So I think a lot of that contributed to how
bad he looked. But I also am leaning more now towards like there's really
no question that for him to be not honestly like exploitable by the other team,
he needs Steph Curry and Klay Thompson out there because there's just the shooting
is just such a problem. And so yeah, I think I think it's
it was a revelatory year. I think in a lot of ways for him,
that's probably a good way to put it. Who else who did you
have after that? So we've gone through KLAYE. Thompson and CJ. McCombe.
Was quaie on your list, by the way, he was, And
I sort of I flipped it a little bit, just real quick. So
Andrew Wiggins is someone that this is the opposite of the question, right,
because now he's going from a bigger role to a smaller one with the Warriors,
and I'm curious what that might look like. And you know, he
was basically the same guy on the Wolves and the Warriors this past year,
which is to say, like about as good as he's ever been, which
is also to say not really that great. So I'm curious about that.
But but yeah, so for my next guy, I'm interested in Jamal Murray
just like as a just in general, like so stagnated growth wise this year,
sort of had the same season over again, which is a little discouraging.
But he's still so young that you know, I'm not I think it's
insane to start thinking a guy that young has leveled off. But so playing
with Yokich is just such a such its own strange thing, and I would
be curious to see what he could do with more of a playmaking responsibility,
which the Nuggets just never gave him. He like, so it's not just
yogic. Murray played two hundred and sixty one possessions this past year without Yokich
or Morris, and so that's like nothing, right. So the Nuggets clearly
don't it. Trust is too strong of a They're not really interested in finding
out what Jamal Murray facilitator looks like right now. But I think he's got
another couple levels to go overall. I think he has the size you want
in a combo guard. I think his shot is just so projectively gonna be
better. And then I think the next phases, can he be like your
real high high end secondary playmaker or if we move him somewhere, what's it
look like when Jamal Murray is running your offense. We don't know that yet,
But I'm kind of optimistic, which I feel like is almost a contrarian
play after the somewhat disappointing year he's had to this point. Right so,
he did not make my list, and I would probably take the more pessimistic
view on him. Part of that I might just be colored by Denver giving
him the no brain or five year Max's ridiculous at all. But he's been
you know, you mentioned, he's been the same player like that he was
last season. Essentially, if you look at his her thirty six minutes splits
over the past three years, there's just not a lot of movement there,
a little bump and playmaking, and yes, the Yokich factor is there this
year though, the Nuggets were in the forty sixth percentile when he played without
Yokich in general of offensive efficiency, and I actually think that's kind of impressive
because if you look at those lineups, what's strupping was one how much he
played with not only Monte Morris but also Will Barton at the same time,
where okay, wow, Denver really might not trust him to handle the ball
or playmake for people full time. But also within those lineups, like there
weren't these terrific floor spacers around him, and so when you're dealing with that
problem, it's harder to have closer to an average offense. And so I
would actually take that as more of an encouraging sign. I don't know if
I'm in the camp of, hey, I want to see you know,
Jamal Murray get the type of opportunity that Bradley Beale has gotten in Washington,
where it's what happens if he is all of your offense and you're removing that
primal playmaker at or removing that middleman whenever you want to want to call him
and really giving him the reins. I would watch it like it's definitely something
that's intriguing, But for some reason, he was not one of the players
that immediately came to mind for me. So you mentioned Bill, which I
feel like is kind of the the the guy that has a lot to do
with this topic in general. Do you do you think that this was Bill's
best year? I think it's tough to you look at the efficiency and it
wasn't. But at the same defense too, he just didn't play defense.
Yeah, and I don't really factor that in as much to the number one
option status just because you know, James Harden exists and so yeah, hear
that. But my whole thing is when you look at the level of shot
difficulty on the attempts that he's taking just incredibly hard, and so the fact
that he's hitting them at all, and then I really for someone like him
when you look at the on off offensive splits where it's not just oh,
their offensive rating declined by a zillion points, it's that they actually had,
you know, an offense that ranks in the when he was on the floor,
it was like the eightieth percentile or something. And that's with dogshit talent
around him for the most part. You know, there were some guys that
had pretty good years, as Schmith was fine, mol Wagner was pretty good
when when he was healthy. But you're just looking at that talent around him,
and you know, eighty first percentile, since I just checked it when
he's on the court offensively eighteen percent tile when he's off, and so someone
who can have that type of impact, to me, I might argue that
it's been his best season, maybe not individually, but with the impact,
with the value that he clearly has to this team. Now, I think
that the argument is there. Yeah, No, That's why I asked,
is I don't I don't know the answer. I think I think it is
a question though, because you look back and just looking at sixteen seventeen,
which was before he'd ever made an All Star Game, and his scoring efficiency
was as good as it ever got. His true shooting percentage a percentage was
up over sixty percent, which for a guy that was fairly high volume even
then, pretty impressive. But but yeah, I think we learned that we
learned something different this year, which is that if he's just the guy,
your offense works, which which I think probably means this was his best year.
But but I don't know, it's it's it's interesting. He's the perfect
test case. It's just because rarely do you get a situation where a guy
plays with a certain setup and certain teammates, like one day and the next
day it all changes with John Wall getting hurt, and I guess i'd say
he succeeded. Is it is it my turn or your turn? For the
next guy? I think it's mine, But I think I would agree with
you with Biel, And I guess maybe the other case would be was last
year his best season just because you still played a ton without Wall and you
were just more efficient overall. He shot fifty four point eight percent on twos.
I mean the fact that he shot over fifty one percent on twos this
year, though, is kind of mind blowing. It is, Yeah,
not a lot of easy shots for him. My next guy, I think
he's probably sort of an obvious one. I'd be a little bit surprised if
he didn't make your list. But Chris Middleton and the narrative of the Bucks
not having a second star, or even to me, the one that's been
more complimentary is they don't have a conventional second star, Like I'm out on
it scant few takes to me have become more outdated than that one, just
because when you look at what Chris Middleton can do to use those disclaimers feels
really reductive. And so the Bucks offense is absolutely great when he plays without
Janis attent Tokompo, And yeah, there's there's something about his game. It
definitely stalls out before he gets to the rim, and a career low fifteen
percent of his looks are coming at the rim this season. But that he
can run pick and rolls, that you can have an above average offense with
him on the court, that he's proven he can hit those tough pull up
threes, that he's shown that he can score out of ISOs or really in
the post. And I know his ISO efficiency this year, last time I
checked it, it really wasn't great. But he's been fairly serviceable in the
post. If you're gonna throw it there to him. I feel like,
no, can he be the best player on a championship team? Absolutely not.
Could you put him in Bradley Beal's shoes and him have that type of
impact around what you would call suboptimal talent. I really think that he could,
and I might just be you know, I don't even know what influence
too much, but I'm going to use influence. I don't know how many
time I'm gonna say that during this podcast, just what he's done this year.
I also think there's just a case to be made that he's been one
of the ten or twelve best players in the league in general this season,
and almost playing next to Jannas senta Coupo does him a disservice because people think
he's benefiting so much from that, and yes he is. You know,
he doesn't have to lead a team against a full lineup of opposing starters.
I totally get that. But I think he's shown enough times in the regular
season and a few times now during the postseason that his game translates really well
and that he's good. He's a good enough of a playmaker to uplift the
players around him and so I would actually love to see him in sort of
a number one role. I don't want, or maybe the better way to
put it is, I at least want to see him be accepted. Since
I'm not someone who's going to be like break up the Bucks. I want
to see him be accepted as a viable number two that people can just admit,
you know what, he could be. Put him as a number two
on a different championship team that doesn't have the best player in the league,
and that's a number two that you want. He's a fascinating case. And
actually I feel bad that I didn't include him, but I as I was
thinking about who I would add, I kind of decided that and this is
the wrong way to approach it. It's just impossible to know because to know
what influence the being on the Bucks and playing with the honest really has or
to be, you know, it's something it's impossible to be sure what difference
that makes. And I'm receptive to kind of either side of that argument of
well, it makes life easy on him he's never the top defensive priority,
or it makes it hard on him because, like you said, he's just
perceived as this, you know, high end second option basically, but as
I'm as you're talking, I'm looking it up and like the Bucks offense was
one hundred and sixteen point eight points per hundred sessions with him on and Yannis
off that, which is phenomenal in ninety fourth percentile, they're just net rating
because he's also you know, he's a good defender. Their net rating is
plus point one. This is cleaning the glass, so no garbage time involved,
which is phenomenal. And the other thing with with him is as you
were talking, is you look it up, like so he's been ridiculously efficient
this year. That's that's the main difference is he's taken his scoring efficiency to
another level. But he his usage is like roughly the same every year since
fifteen sixteen, which is before Jannie was you know, capital g Jannis,
and his scoring efficiency was really really good too. So it's not like the
rise of Jannis has just made everything so easy for him that you know,
he's got inflated stats or whatever. He's it's such a he's a really good
passer, underrated passer. I just yeah, I think I think I agree
that you know, there's I don't know how many a half dozen guys that
you'd say put them as the best play on any team, and it's a
contender. He's not that, but he's definitely I think the Bill comparison is
really interesting. He might even be better than Bill if he just had,
you know, a not so good team and had to do everything. I
think the evidence is definitely there based on not just this year, but we've
got five years now Chris Middleton being really freaking good, right, And so
I looked this up too, so over the past three seasons where his ISO
frequency is fluctuated, but in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, when it accounted for
about ten percent of his offensive possessions fifty seventh percentile of efficiency. Last season
it accounted for almost sixteen percent of his offense. He was in the ninety
second percentile. And this year it's more than twelve percent of his offense and
he's in the sixty fourth percentile. And those are just solid things. And
then what I've almost done two is imagine, like Jason Tatum, if he
was the level of playmaker that Chris Middleton is, I think people would probably
argue that Jason Tatam's is the best player in the NBA at that point,
I do think he probably doesn't bit more defensively off the ball and his game,
even though maybe you want him to get to the room more. It
doesn't stall out that like Middleton's does, like there's there's a clear concern there.
But when again, when you can dribble into pull ups over players,
when you're so efficient in the mid range, when you can work in the
post, maybe it's just not as not as important to do that. And
so I would welcome seeing him as the number one for some type of stretch
with a Bucks or if he ends up with another team at some point.
The hope of Milwaukee obviously is that he doesn't, but I would be fascinated
to see. Maybe I end up being totally wrong, but I could see
him being one of those players that you know, similar to how it turns
out Pascal Siakam didn't need Kwhi Leonard, I don't necessarily think that Chris Middleton
needs Yanni's attentakopo to contend to win a championship, absolutely to be the face
of an efficient offense. I don't necessarily think that's true. You know what's
interesting about him too, and this isn't the point of the exercise. But
he's six eight, so his you know, twilight years are going to be
Joe Johnson esque playing power forward, except with you know, just a more
well rounded game than Johnson had and some defense. So he like his shelf
life as a as a significant contributor is much longer than than for a lot
of guys because he has the size to hold up against this, especially modern
fours, and he's gonna have all, like all of his skills as they
deteriorate, we'll just continue to look good as he's guarded by bigger, slower
guys. So like factor that into if you're thinking of him as a top
option, like he might, he might last for a while at this level
of production. So I don't know. Yes, we are all fans of
Chris Middleton. I think we can agree on that one. Guys, are
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don't want to go too off the board. I had another guy that I
sort of it's a Wigan situation where I want to see the opposite but and
that's I'll just do it real quick. That's zach Lavine. I want to
see zach Lavine play for like a Boston where he is not allowed to do
all the zach Lavine high usage stuff and you just sort of trim like twenty
percent of the fat off his game. And somehow, since Boston gets everyone
to do it, play defense and what he looks like as a third option,
he might be like the best third option in the league potentially, but
that's a separate bos boss him by the ways the New Spurs I've decided,
which is used to be, like, oh, what would the Spurs you
know, player development staff and they're ahead of the curve, you know,
how they deploy guys and how they use talent. What would this guy look
like there? Now that's Boston. You know, they get Marcus Morris to
play really well, they get washed Gordon Hayward to still contribute. Al Horford
sucks after he leaves. Like all Daniel Tys is good now, right,
Daniel Tyes is a great defensive center. They just like they just make guys
work. So I want to see Levine there. My next guy is smart
run his own team just for the memes that would ensue. See, I'm
a little concerned about that team's uh scoring, but uh my, So my
next guy is Fred van Vleet because him, So, you're you're more I
thought about him, but I didn't put him. So you're you're more courageous
than I I respect well or stupid? So and and like there's a decent
chance we get to find out, right, we'll see what free agency does
if he ends up sticking or not, I find Toronto on pretty much keeping
him. I don't know the Knicks are gonna get give him stupid money.
It'll be on the table. I don't know if he takes it, but
the Knicks are going to offer him stupid money unless they dray for CP three.
Excuse me, I forgot about that scenario. We do. We have
like a three hour podcast to talk about that. Honestly, could we just
say if this had happened. I don't really think there's a way for the
Knicks to preserve enough cap space. Well, well they could. They could
use their cap space then if they guarantee a certain amount of contracts I work
through the scenario I know would be undersized. I would pay pretty good money
to see a CP three Fred van Fleet backcourt. That's all I'm gonna say
it. I mean, like, defensively, you're giving up nothing those guys.
It doesn't the small guard thing is not a factor with those two.
So right there, you're set. Yeah, I'd love to see it.
Never gonna happen. They're not gonna get either of those guys, I don't
think. But so the case for Van Fleet's pretty straightforward. As far as
this goes, I mean, you know, he sort of everybody realized after
the playoffs last year, once he caught fire that he could be sort of
that type of player spark Plug could defend ones and twos exceptionally well, deflects
every pass that's within like a half mile of him, and could get hot
from three, all that stuff. This year, he was just like a
really good point guard across the board, huge leap as a facilitator six I
think six and a half assist a game, not looking at it, but
big jump from before. The three point shooting is great again. He doesn't
surrender anything defensively, just bite being small. I could see him just being
like a top ten point guard in the league, or being viewed that way
if he had his own team to run again. And I almost hope we
don't find out, because I just like Toronto as it's composed right now,
with you know, him and Siakam kind of being the core going forward and
Og and an Obi obviously, but yeah, I'm interested to see what he
might look like. I think he really has the game to scale up.
There's he hasn't really and it's hard to see, you know, I can't
at the time he spent without Siakam and Lowry. This season it's sub six
hundred possessions, which is fairly sizeable but not really enough, and the Raptors
offense in that time ranks in the twelfth percentile. The issue with Toronto is,
though, is that they just have limitations offensively from their supporting cast if
you're not named Terrence Davis, and so it's hard to really draw conclusions from
that. Then Sergeibaka, of course, and then a lot of those minutes
aren't coming with Mark Gasol because he hasn't been he hasn't been healthy this year,
and so when you are the primary option, like you still need talent
around you, and so he really hasn't seen but the bench units that he's
led in general without Kyle Lowry before Pascal Siakam took on all this ball handling
responsibility, I think those were a clear sign. I remember the Delan Right
Fred Van Fleet bench lineups. They were just straight destroying people for basically like
not so much last season before the trade, but definitely this season before.
And so I'm with you, I don't necessarily and I think I speak with
all these players. Maybe there's a few where I'm like, this needs to
happen. I don't necessarily want to see it because I like, you know,
just Fred van Fleet fleets fit in Toronto, just like the persona that
he has, and just how it seems like he's this mini Kyle Lowry on
defense. So but I do I agree with you. I think, first
of all, I think you can make the case that he was a fringe
top ten point guard this year. He was certainly top fifteen for me,
And so if you actually give him the keys and make him the offensive engine,
there would be a pretty good chance to me that he delivers. Yeah,
That's why I hesitated it is because as I was trying to think,
you know, off the cuff, well where does where does he rank?
It's like it's like on a permanent basis, he's way up there. It's
just it's that's the whole point of this is, well, what does it
mean that he gets a fair amount of time against second units even though he's
a regular starter. What does it mean that Siakam just suddenly is a guy
that you can just give the ball to all the time, that he also
has Lowry? It's all these variables make it hard to know I don't know.
I he's just he's just This is not great for a statistically driven argument,
but he just is a type of player that I feel like is it
has the competitiveness and has the sort of like middle finger to the world like
I'm under I've been undersized forever. Just he just has a ton of game.
So yeah, again, I like him where he is because I think
you couldn't ask for a much better spot. But but I just want to
know what it looks like. This is one where I actually want to see
it happen because I think for this player to reach his apex or to be
the player that everyone thinks he can be right now, he needs to get
there. Shake Gil just Alexander for me, and I think what we've really
seen is that, you know, he might be one of the most underrated
scorers in the NBA right now. There's just like, you know, he
has the nice in between game. His three point clip is down this year,
but he's still above thirty five percent while creating more of his own opportunities.
His rookie year, under ten percent of his mad threes came off assists,
and then this year that number is over forty three percent. And so
there's been a clear jump there. He has like a little bit of change
of pace to him in misdirection when he's inside the arc. The question for
me is, I could see a scenario where he's just hitting off the dribble
jumpers, hitting even more of his floaters at higher clips, and then his
mid range game. Like I said, it's clearly there. The question for
me is will he ever be that type of facilitator? And there were too
many fail safes in Los Angeles, even though there weren't stars, but you
had Gallo and Tobias Harris for a lot of the season. Lou Williams was
there, of course. And now you go into Oklahoma City and you have
Chris Paul, you have Dennis Shrewder, which you know, maybe that's not
saying much. Even though Dennis Shrewder's having a really good year, it does
seem like he's tilting more towards hybrid wing than combo guard. And I want
to see because I think inevitably maybe it gets to that point in Okay see,
particularly if they do end up trading Paul this summer, can he actually
be that engine for in offense? And this year it was not pretty when
he played without Chris Paul, Oklahoma City's offense was in the twelfth percentile.
And a lot of those minutes are coming with Most of those minutes are coming
with Shrewder because they don't really play him at point guard. So I want
to see him in a situation where, you know, maybe he don't have
to be the point guard, but I want to see him be just the
primary ball handler and see how that offense ends up faring. I think I
think he's a fascinating figure for all the reasons you suggested. Is like we're
not even really sure what position he tops out at, you know, like
because he's six six and he's not even twenty two yet, so he should
he'll he'll fill out, and then he should be fine guarding, you know,
all but the biggest wings. So point guard isn't necessarily you know,
given for him going forward, and his assist numbers are are underwhelming for sure
for his position. But like I would love to bet on a guy that
is this young, that just has he has like his level of craft and
feel on those weird in between, like he's into the lane, there's like
he's pinna guy on his back. He is there's a big in front of
him, and he just has this innate, you know, ability to whether
it's wrong footing the guy or scooping this shot this way or spinning back this.
He just has all these little weird things that you can only really chalk
up to feel. And I don't know if that's coachable, And so that's
just gonna play how you know, however big he gets, or however he
however much he improves his his you know, court vision and willingness to move
the ball and all that stuff. So I think in addition to wondering what
he looks like running his offense, I just wonder what he looks like with
some experience, because a guy that has so many like old man skills already
to me only profiles as someone that's going to look a lot better as he
hits you know, mid twenties. So so yeah, I like, I
like that pick a lot. I haven't seen he has like a pretty good
feel to pick and roll, but I haven't seen like anything that makes me
think he can be like a much better pass or maybe make more complicated.
And he's only a sophomore, so there's the caveat right there. But I
feel like I've seen it, and this is stupid. Sounds stupid because he's
ataging more assistant Jason's him, But I feel like I've seen Jayson Tatum make
some more complicated reads, whereas maybe just Shay Gilbongxander hasn't gotten enough of those
reps. And it's not that I want to see it. I just feel
like he has to get there, and because I don't think he can necessarily
exist as this hybrid wing if he wants to be the best player on a
really good team, and so it's never really gonna happen, so let's just
see it. I'm actually chuckling trying to say about Chucky right now because after
recording Jannie's Twitter clearly got hacked, like hack hacked he has. I'm not
going to read some of them, but he's tweeted just in succession. Fuck
Chris Middleton. I want to play with some actual shooters. He tweeted,
I'm going to the Warriors with prayer hands emojis. He tweeted at Stephen Curry,
this is X rated, as like, no, well, look someone's
using their quarantine time. Well yeah, he tweeted Stephan Curry, what if
it was real. I hope it's real. Wouldn't be great. We have
so much to talk about. There's no he said. Way he said to
Stephen Curry tagged him, said I fucked your wife. So this is definitely
not Yann but it is like, oh man, so well, stinkodbye to
Jannis on Twitter for a while. Yeah, that's a fucking king James.
He tried to hire a hit man on me. Wow, okay, but
sorry, That's just why I was laughing and trying to get through that because
I was seeing this show up. What professional focus by you. I would
never held that together. It is your turn, though, Okay, so
you can mute and laugh all you wanted. So this I feel good about
these this. So I've lumped two guys together, and I alluded to the
Spurs earlier. So this Dejonta Murray and Derek White. I think we've reached
the point now and I will just think of them in tannem even though they're
pretty significantly different players but a similar ish position, et cetera. So I
feel like the Spurs now are the opposite of what they used to be,
where you know, just you look at the guys that leave, like Davis
Burton's is the obvious one where it just seems clear that san Antonio did not
understand what it had and was just not willing to play in a way that
maximized him. And Derosen being there and Aldridge being there are huge complicating factors,
especially for ball handlers and theoretically point slash combo guards like Murray and White,
where like, if your offense is significantly dump it into Aldridge or pick
and pop Aldridge, or de Rosen clears out and works his way to a
mid range shot, or de Rosen in the midpost. There's just not a
lot of opportunity for guards to kind of spread their wings and take on larger
roles and just sort of do traditional backcourt player stuff with those two guys on
the team and in an organization that is starting to feel like it's a little
bit strategically kind of behind the curve. So Murray, obviously we just know
nothing about him because he had of the ACL injury. He barely played as
a rookie. But I think as a you know, a low usage guard
now, I wonder if he could be a higher usage guy as his shot
comes around. His deep is always going to play, and White is somewhat
similar. So I guess, I don't know. I'm kind of getting down
on the Spurs. I guess is what I'm realizing it is. I just
want to see what teams or what guys that are sort of quote unquote stuck
there look like when they get loose. And Murray's under contract now for what
three more years. I don't know if it even kicked in yet. It
might be four, so we may not find out. But but I think
both of those guys are really interesting to think about playing someplace else. I
actually did have de Jon Day Murray on mine, and so I'm with you.
I don't know that he's he just turns the ball over so much in
transition and when you are able to go under pick and rolls, I think
defenses are more inclined to do that against him than Derek White at this point.
Definitely an issue, but he actually made my list because I would.
I would love to see it. And you're also like, maybe we're you
know, you say we're down on the Spurs, but we're also sort of
cowtowing to like that Spurs. Mystique still where it's well, you know,
maybe they still do have a guy on the roster who's worth seeing alone.
De Marta Rosen needs to get out of there though. It's just that's not
anything against the Marta Rosen, who I'm not super high on, but he's
I mean, he's a pretty efficient scorer for what he does. But it
just doesn't work when you look at how limited Murray and White rs shooters.
I know they both shot threes and long twos and are fairly okay clip this
year, but just the volume isn't there. And so that's what I'd be
curious to see. Two in Murray's case as well, is can he get
shot volumes up if he's given a more more prominent role, and so he
would definitely be someone for me. Yeah, for sure. I think I'm
cheating on this one because I have one that I thought was like a little
bit off beat, but it's really it's really not. It's just off beat
because of the team makeup right now, this one's sort of cheating. I'm
not sure if it's legitimate, but Ben Simmons, let's just see what happens
when you surround Ben Simmons by all shooters and everyone says like there could be
a Yannis type of effect. I don't think there would be, just because
Jannie is at least willing to take jumpers, and like he has like a
Falloway jumper to his game, it's not the most efficient shot in his arsenal.
Ditto for the pull up three, but like Ben Simmons isn't even taking
those. But I still want to see the returns when you look at offensively
how the Sixers play over these past few years, when Ebiad isn't on the
floor, it's not great. But I do think part of that's at least
semi related to how the Sixers have been built, particularly this year, So
I just want to see him in a different type of situation. I don't
think the Sixers should trade Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid. That should be a
last resort, and I don't think they're there yet. But I also really
want to see Ben Simmons on a different team or just a different different version
of the Sixers. And that's not evenna saying that I want them to trade
Joel Embiid, but just because of how great his vision is if you give
him legitimate four out lineups around him, because he has Embiad shoots threes,
but He's not the most efficient three point shooter. Al Horford was always pretty
efficient relative to his position, but like he was working out of pick and
pops, which the Sixers don't run. So I want to see just basically,
Simmons doesn't necessarily have to be the center, but you need a center
who can really hit and take threes out of a high at a high knock
them down at a high clip out of these drive and flips. So I
want to see something like that. And I don't know if we'll ever get
to see it, and if it happens, will happen in Philly. I
honestly don't know. But he's someone who I'm curious to see how he would
fare in that type of role, if only because would it make him maybe
more of an aggressive score? Are we going to see him maybe rely on
a floater a little bit more in that type of situation because we know we
can kind of do a little bit of stuff in the post, and we
just knows as much as defenses know where he's going to go. He can
still get to the rim and finish at the rim really well. And so
I think there's a better offensive player there. I just don't think the personnel
on the Sixers. I do think that he and Joel and By can co
exist. I just feel like the rest of the team isn't really built to
that capacity. And even with that in mind, I would still like to
see the more extreme version where it's really just four out around Ben Simmons.
So indirectly, I've been actually thinking a lot about the Sixers lately, and
so I'll flip it. I think, for sure Simmons is like one of
the most interesting guys to think about in a different situation, whether that's a
different Sixers, set of Sixers teammates or playing somewhere else. But so I've
been doing these redrafts for Bleacher Report over the last couple of weeks, and
so you're sort of forced to think about like alternate possible histories, right,
and so as I'm going through it, and obviously the Sixers had all these
high picks because of the process, and I'm getting into situations where instead of
Simmons they have Siakam and Embid or they have Jason Tad. Again, they
don't do faults, they go so in a theoretically you get a situation where
you have Sam, Jason Tatum and Embid and then suddenly it's just like,
how easy is this? How much easier is all of this? So to
me, I think, what's to flip it? What does embide look like
without Simmons? I agree that there's a possibility they can be a title winner
together, but just it's so easy without Simmons because in this past season was
one of the most dominant post players like we've ever seen in a year.
He just absolutely destroyed everybody in a in a points per possession basis from the
post. So what does that look like if instead of Simmons being ignored you
have Siakam or Tatum or just pick your star wing that they had the draft
assets to get instead of Simmons. And suddenly the Sixers are like, well,
what how do you defend this team? It's impossible? So I think
I would go the other way and say, what does Ebid look like with
a normal set of you know, second star and you know role players around
him as opposed to sim Now you can look at the different on off splits
and how they how they play with and without each other. But I think,
to me, it's just like endlessly fascinating to imagine what a what a
sixers. Look team looks like for a full season in playoffs with somebody sort
of equally productive but in a different way than to Simmons. As as as
Inbiad's number two, Did I lose you? I was on mute? Excuse
me? I was so as of right now, not reimagining anything. Do
you think that Simmons is a top twenty player in the NBA? I'm so
bad at this. I'll tell you that I took Siakam over him in the
redraft at Siakam went ahead of him. So I don't know what that says.
I don't know. I think that's in that's that's a reasonable range.
He's definitely not top ten, like, I don't think there's any argument for
that twenty. Yeah, sure, like he's in that range of top twenty.
Maybe if you consider the fit issues that he presents, he ought to
be lower than that, but he's just so ridiculously productive and such a good
defender that that maybe that's about right. Who do you have anyone else written
down? I got one more and it's a short one and it's it's it's
so, here's here's the reason for it. I'll keep giving you back story.
I read this. I read something by Joe Varden, who I think
is with the Athletic and they were it was because everyone's doing last Dance content.
He was talking with Kevin Love about the last Calve season and what it
felt like, and it felt to me like Love was a retired guy that
was like reminiscing about, you know, the old days, and he seemed
like, I don't know, he had he had perspective on it, and
he seemed a little like wistful, a little bit sad about it. And
it made me realize, like, Kevin Love is still good. He's not
you know, maybe call him overrated, call out the defense, he can't
guard, you know, whatever, but Kevin Love is still a very good
basketball player who, in theory should make other good basketball players better because he's
just had the ability to pass if where if you give him the ball,
he can make a good decision, and that just hasn't been part of what
the Calves have ever really asked him to do. So I want to see
Kevin Love before he actually is a retired player on a good team where his
skills actually matter and where defensively you can make up for him a little bit.
And we forget that. You know, the Minnesota years were probably overrated
because that team wasn't any good and he had these crazy numbers that you know
resulted in congratulations. He still didn't make the playoffs type stuff. But I
miss Kevin Love mattering. He's a flawed player, but I think he would
matter so much more and do and you know, put together a bunch of
good years that would make a difference if he were playing somewhere other than Cleveland.
Yeah, I could agree with that. The thing with Kevin Love that's
so tough is where would he just make sense at this point? And it's
a lot of it is just because of the defense. And I also think
even what he does offensively, yeah, he's still good, but it's not
as a nomalist as it was four or five years ago. It almost seems
standard for someone in his position. I would say the passing probably is not.
I'm just like, what team could you because he has to play center
now, and so what team would have the defensive bandwidth to put him at
center? And just nothing comes to mind? No, Well, I mean
what about Miami. What if because you've got auto bio to just guard whoever
you need defended regardless of position. Obviously, like the money where you say
the defense, the money is what means he doesn't fit anywhere. That's just
like a non starter. But pretend that's not an issue. I think someone
like that to the extent there are players like Auto Bio then because then you
you know, Auto Bio doesn't have the stretch yet, but love provides that,
I think. But the two of those is your front court passing tandem
is like ridiculous. You forget point you don't need a point guard anymore.
So yeah, something like that. But obviously that's just that's pie in this
guy. Yeah, and I mean even in I don't people have kind of
been fascinated with Utah. I don't know that him and go Bear are the
best best fit even though that well on offense, it works like it would
be fine. I'm just, yeah, who's guarding fours on that team?
Right? But that would be I mean, if he could get that opportunity,
or technically he could have it in Cleveland, they just have so many
young ball dominant guards and they might draft another one this year. He's still
their next season, Like at those touches just aren't going to be or the
usage just won't be as high as it probably could be, but Kevin Love
renaissance, I would not watch it my last guy. I'm wondering if we
ever get there Zion where Andy Davis is a fantastic player. He's top seven
the NBA right now, probably around that range, maybe eight, whatever you
want to say. But he's always been a play finisher and not someone who's
going to lead the most efficient offense on his own for these long stretches.
We've even seen it in Los Angeles when le Bron's off the court this season.
He always going to need another He needs a playmaker around him to maximize
what he does best. I'm wondering if Zion has what it takes to just
be an exception. He has trucked people in the post this season. He
hasn't really run a ton of pick and roll. I would kind of like
to see that because it feels like he has the passing IQ to really do
things going downhill. If he's coming around screens and then he's five of nine.
This is such a small sample size, but five of nine on off
the dribble jumpers. Is this someone that we could trust in low to modest
volume to hit some shots on the move outside of the paint slash restricted area.
I just want to see it, and I'm curious if we'll ever get
there, or if the Pelicans are always going to steer into the mindset of
he's more of a play finisher and like his most frequent self created looks are
going to be those those putbacks, let's say, and they're they're sort of
ready made to go that direction just because you have Drew Holiday right now,
you have Brandon Ingram, you have a Lonzo Ball. But I would love
to a couple of years down the line, maybe when we've seen if Zion's
really able to broaden his offensive game. I really would love to see what
someone like him would look in that role. It's like a what if Draymond
Green could actually be more of a scorer and it feels like Zion Williamson might
have that that factor about him. Yeah, I think that so Zion isn't
just a fundamentally complicate a player to consider, because I mean, really,
we like we think we have an idea of sort of what he is,
but we really don't even know yet what type of player he's going to initially
become, so that we can then start thinking about what type of player he
might be elsewhere or with a you know, a couple of years of skill
development, Like the slate is so blank right now. I mean with you
know, physically, we know what we have. He's just overwhelming in every
way, you know, size, speed, strength, jump over jump through
all that stuff. Like he's unparalleled I think athletically. But what does that
mean. It seems like the logical way to go is, you know,
if you're skeptical about his outside shot ever being a real threatening weapon, which
I think I probably am, he does sort of have to have the ball
because unless you've got this just brilliantly put together scheme where all he does is
cut around and just you know, constantly be sprinting in straight lines toward the
hoop and guys find him. But it seems like he's gonna have to show
that he can do stuff with the ball because the alternative is he becomes just
a knockdown floor spacer, and that seems far less likely to me. Yeah,
that's what's tough is because I do think you need kind of that off
the dribble jumper to do it, and I don't know that he ever gets
there. And even if we get to a point where it's it's like Derek
White style, you want to say, we're gonna need time to get off
his jumper even if players are going under screens. I'm not sure functionally how
valuable that would be, but just because he can truck people in the post
for now, and he does seem like a good enough pastor where he could
run, pick and roll if for some reason that jumper develops too. I'm
not talking about in terms of actual deployment, but efficiency wise a Janni's attemp
to coombo jumper. Like, that's where it gets interesting, because yes,
Jannis is a below average jump shooter, but he can still be the primary
playmaker for an incredibly good offense. Yeah, you know, it's made me
think, in conjunction with watching all the Last Dance stuff, like if the
rules were what they used to be and Jannie, the idea of him having
to shoot threes to be optimally effective was just not a thing, because he
could post up anybody, or you could throw it to him like in the
Jordan range, you know, ten twelve feet away, and you couldn't as
easily have the second guy there. Same with Zion, like those guys I
mean to say Jannie would have better numbers. It's kind of insane, but
it's actually possible that if he could just use all of his strengths and not
have to worry about same with Zion adding all this stuff, they could actually
be even better, which is obviously ridiculous to think about. Do you have
any honorable mentions you want to throw out there where it would be like really
long shots that we probably really don't want to see it, but could it
technically happen. One of the names that if for me to start, one
of the names that spring to mind for me would be would it force DeAndre
Ayton to kind of expand his offensive arsenal? If he was kind of the
day factor Number one. He's probably just looking at how smooth he can be
in the post. I feel like you could get more face up usage out
of him, and maybe not having a Devin Booker on the court for so
many possessions at a time, would that force him to kind of augment strength
and broaden whatever you want to say, his offensive game. And it's not
something I necessarily want to see again, but I'm not curious if he'd be
the type of player that could maybe baptism by fire type deal. Yeah,
that's interesting. I think the parallel that that kind of conjures up for me
is and actually this has some resemblance to like the Dame CJ dynamic is Jaylen
Brown because he took such strides this year just across the board. Now,
it's the kind of the same thing where it's like, you know, Boston
has obviously you would never get rid of two way wings because that's just like
a fireable offense now, so they're never going to break those two up.
But you know, how much more does Jaylen Brown have that? You know,
because Tatum clearly is going to be the guy with the ball now.
But I would wonder, you know, a year from now, if Brown
is someone who starts to feel or maybe deserve of, you know, top
option status. I think it's unlikely, But that's the first guy that I
thought of when when we're trying to think of guys that you know, at
least have a possible trajectory of getting to a place where like they sort of
warrant, you know, a bigger role than they're going to be able to
get. It's just interesting with him because you look up and it's like,
oh, Jayalen Brown average over twenty points a game. I just don't know
that we've ever even seen hints of the passing that he would need to shoulder
that type of burden. Yeah, no, I think I think I think
that's probably the way that it the reason that it wouldn't necessarily work. But
I don't know the way he just improved so much. I just remember him
as a rookie, like, really, all he tried to do is dunk
on everyone, and it rarely worked out, and he was overrated as a
defender. And now he just has so much more Just he's so much more
refined without losing you know, that kind of athletic aggression. Just when a
guy makes those sorts of developments, it's it's just so nice to see,
like an athletic project become a really good basketball player. And so then I
start to think that anything's possible. But yeah, he probably should draw the
line at the sort of intuitive passing stuff that you really would need to have
a top option role. Well, Grant, this was fun. Thank you
for giving me so much of your time. This is the first pot I
think we've ever done that should clock in it under an hour with the two
of us on it might prolong. Yeah, hey, you want to talk
about most improved player, let's just knock out ninety more minutes. No,
we talked about efficiency throughout this pot, so I feel like it's appropriate that
we knocked it out. Probably not as efficient relative to other podcasts, but
thank you so much for being generous with your time. I always love talking
to you. Hope that you and your family are able to stay safe and
that your your haircut continues to be at least an eight out of ten,
if not maybe maybe a nine. Follow Grant on Twitter at gt Underscore Hughes.
Until next time, we leave you with the shout out too, second
options, Shout out to them, Shout out to all the number two It's
doing work. Sugar Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler,
and Thomas Hearns legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors
in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary
The Kings, a four part series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime