American Hostage is an Amazon original and Criminal Content production. This podcast is based
on a true story of a hostage crisis that took place in Indianapolis in nineteen
seventy seven. Listener discretion is advised Episode four, The Profiler. When a
guy's neck is on the line was a common euphemism used around newsrooms, a
casual way of saying someone's in a bind. But when that guy's neck has
a dead man's line strapped around it with a sawed off shotgun named square at
the back of his head, believe me, there's nothing casual about it,
especially when you're the only thing standing between his life and the man with the
trigger. Look, I'm sorry. I couldn't make it tonight, Barb.
I can take the couch. I don't want you on the couch because I
don't want to spend a week hearing about your back. What if I didn't
pick up the phone? Huh? What if it wasn't me? I already
apologized, don't Barb me. I don't know what else I can do.
Why is it that every time we talk nowadays, it's because you're apologizing,
Barbara. You've clearly got something you need to say, so you should say
it. I don't want this to be a fight. We want to tell
you that I'm happy about it, that I engineered it, that I deliberately
went back to the station to go after a story. Did I say something?
Maybe I did, But it wasn't because I wanted to ditch my beautiful
wife or spoil another anniversary. It is because I am lost. I don't
know what you've been saying to that man, but I am sure that you
are the reason dick Hole is still alive. But when you called from the
office today, I didn't even get to have the kind of reaction any normal
person would have to the news you gave me. I knew that it was
you and that you wouldn't be coming back, and I feel guilty. I
feel guilty that when you said you were saving a man's life, that moment
was numbed for me. You deserve a better husband, Barb. How give
me some time to answer how? And I promised to answer it. Okay,
Barb, good night, good night. I love you, honey.
Kuritzis was like a cosmic event. He was his own planetary system, and
the rest of us, the media, were just moons orbiting around him idly.
Floating by. Why did I disrupt the system? Why did I exit
the Indie five hundred speedway and veer off the track? I was bored,
I was hungry, I was reckless. That was all those things, simple
as that. Jus you know, Fred Cliff, how's a copy? You're
allowed to wipe your feet before you start work? Okay, I could multitask
what's new? We did some digging. Found an old polatic work that chritsis
one's threatened his own sister with an axe. That right a few years ago.
That gives you a photo confidence anything else. Feds are coming in morning,
Sally the Feds. Yeah, I think Jim's got them on the phone
right now. Jim's in his office already, he slept here. You're kidding,
No, I guess broadcasting a potential homicide. That's giving him the jitters
overrel Gary came in an hour early. Bryce Height, No, no,
you can you can bet. No. No, we're not gonna Fred,
you wipe that fucking smug look off your fucking face. We're we're putting the
ball in your court. Whatever agent Peterson says goes, all right, yes,
sir, I'll call you back when he gets here. All right,
Thank you, sir. I'll just sleep. I don't you like an imprint
of my wedding ring between your eyes? The Feds are coming in. Oh
what else you know? I talked to Chief Gallagher about an hour ago.
He said, Tony has been up all night ranning and raving NonStop. Hell
if he doesn't come out of this with a hole in his head, he'll
be the new mascot for Drossell. Oh, he's gonna be irritable. Yeah,
I wonder what that'll look like. Oh, you know what a profiler
is, fred like a reporter? No, no, no, I'm talking
about the field of criminal psychology. Then no, I don't may neither.
But we're getting one. Special Agent Roy Peterson will be here any minute.
He's gonna gobbly book his way into our hearts and we're gonna listen everything he
says and not our heads. Yes, because he's federal and we need someone
other than the station to take responsibility for all this shit if it goes sideways.
Coffee good this morning, Jim, Yeah, fuck off Especial Agent Peterson
just walked in. Yeah, yeah, we're ready for him. Peterson,
gentlemen, Yeah, come on in, Agent Peterson h Hi. I'm I'm
Jim Hilliard. This is Fred Heckman, sir, good to meet you.
Look, I'm not gonna waste time with the usual pleasant trees. Okay,
how much time we got before we're on? Are you go live at noon?
Okay? Well, look I've been watching the footage since last night.
Hell of a man you've got here. We noticed. So look, if
it's all right with you, I'd like to be on call for today.
Well, it's all right with me, Agent Peterson. Just call me Roy.
It's all we've got time for. Okay, Roy, I'm just worried
if FED is gonna make Tony jumpy. Look, don't worry about that.
I'll stay quiet. He won't know him there. Now, I'm want to
do some light speed coaching based off my initial profile here. All right,
we were just talking about that. What is it you do? Exactly?
The short of it is that I analyze criminals and make identifying assessments to their
future actions and means of operations. WHOA behold the omnipotent powers of the FBI.
No, not omnipotent yet, but we'll get there. Forensic profiling is
a brand new science, but it's picking up steam in the bureau. The
short of short of it is is that I specialize in men like Tony kurtzs
okay, why can you tell us about him? I can tell you that
he's manic depressive, and that's precisely what makes him dangerous. Oh, I
wouldn't call him depressed, He's just angry. Manic depression doesn't manifest in the
same way as a normal depression. It produces a reaction to the depression.
Look, have you all heard the nine one one call he made yesterday morning?
No? Okay, well I've recorded off my phone here listen to this
point. Yes, sir, yes, sir, I'm stand But you say
you've got some of them wired up a shot I've got a real deal,
twelve gay shotgun wired up to the back of his head. And anything happens
to me, it goes off, And if he moves, it goes off.
And I got her. So there's a hundred ways of goes off and
only one way don't and that's keeping me alive and good you understand. I
understanding. And they say no crank call, Yes, sir, this is
not a crawd. I don't ever have much for anyone to take and these
motherfuckers find some way to take it all, and I'm mad as hell.
I swear to God, he's almost as good as that. He's never been
closer to death than he is right now. So you see, Tony has
made a connection between his life and his goals, which serves as the basis
for his depression. But his operations revolve around a skewed sense of justice.
So he's crazy. No, he isn't crazy. Tony is very much in
control and very sane. Manic depressives are not inherently violent people. There are
thousands all over the country and they get by just fine, like you and
me. Like them, Tony understands the concepts of right and wrong, but
he's acting out in retaliation to trauma experience as a child. Yeah, well,
we were told he hated talking about his father. So the difference between
Tony and say mass murderer is that he operates and relies on the empathy of
others. Someone experiencing a psychological break or someone who was a full fledged psychopath
wouldn't be able to do that. Okay, so then he'll let their call
go. I'm not saying that he will. I'm saying that he could.
The potential is there, but he could kill him. Roy, we're numbers
guys here. What are the odds? Eight twenty eighty in favor of Dick's
release? Jim, I wouldn't be here if it was eighteen favor? Fred,
your phone's ringing him? Slick Leonard called? Did they win? They're
playing tonight? He was wondering if we'd be calling back. So nobody wants
to hear about how the Pacers are going to get the shit kicked out of
again? So what should I tell him? Parallog next season? Ah?
Shit, it's locked. You are shitting me. When did you start locking
your office? I don't know. I thought i'd try something new. Come
on, friend, come on, you got the kid? Hold on,
hold on, I gotta here we go. Here we go, Okay,
here we go? All right? Roy? What am I doing? Okay?
Right now? Do everything you can to humanize Dick Hall Okay, say
his name often. Anything you can do to make Tony feel like he's having
a conversation about people instead of a negotiation about what he wants, Okay.
Fred Heckman speaking to Christis, sir, good morning, Tony. I thought
you get into work at seven. Yeah, yeah, I've been here.
We've been in meetings all morning. We're getting ready for the for the big
interview today. That's what I wanted to know. Yep, Yeah, we're
good to go. How's Dick doing, Tony? Are you still kicking?
How's your wife? She's doing fine. She's mad at you for missing your
anniversary. She's a good woman. Tell me she understands the situation. Yeah,
yeah, I'm sorry about that. They brought my brother Stephen up here
last night and I was talking to him. What you talking about with your
brother? Really just doesn't get it, Fred, He's just I know he
cares about me at all, but that just makes it worse when the people
who love you don't understand you. I can't think of anything worse. I
know what you mean, Tony, and I don't have a wife. I
never had a wife. I barely ever done steady, and I don't have
any shame in telling you that I'm a version. I could have had someone
in the army, but I didn't want bumps all over my balls. I
have never been with a woman, but I haven't given any much thought to
it either. That's what my dad, he'd done to me. He drills
all the romance right out of my head, all the wrong man, it's
ud happiness. I got plumb nothing but work at the Clift. But by
god, do I work hard. I work my ass off. I know
you do, Tony. Yah. I've got friends. But I tell you
what. I tell you what. Nobody talks to me like you do.
Fred. You know what I get from you. I get respect. I
don't get any kind of pity. I just get respect and the kind of
respect I earned. Man, I do respect you, Tony. You know
I think you're on track to being my best friend. And when all this
is over, we're going out. We're going out, and we're gonna go
for a night out on the town. I'll pay for it because I'm getting
five million dollars. And you bring your wife too, so I can tell
her how sorry I am. And I'll buy her a big old ring to
make up for the anniversary you missed, because I don't want her to be
mad at you, and I know nothing makes up for lost time. Well
that sounds great, Tony. I want to talk about the interview. I
got some questions I want you to ask me. You got a pen and
paper, pen and paper to write them? Down because there's no way you're
going to remember all that. Yeah, I can get a pen and paper,
all right, question more, Just you give me a second there,
Tony. Yeah, Okay, go ahead, Tony. Question one, what
would possess a man to tie a shotgun to the back of a son of
a beach's head? Uh? What would possess a man to tie a shotgun
to the back of another man's head? I said, son of a bitch,
fred son of a bitch? Right, Well, I can't say that
on the radio, Tony. You know, we got to think about the
optics here a bit. You want people to understand you, to understand where
you're coming from, that's right. You have to remember that Dick is a
human being. Well, I haven't seen no goddamn evidence to that now,
Tony. A lot of people in town know Dick Hall, they've worked with
him, they've gone to church with him. Well, then they know firsthand
how he's a rotten from the inside out. I'm just not sure everybody feels
that way about Dick. Now. This is a man with a wife and
kids, Tony. Question two, Did you hear me? Question number two?
Did you hear me? Tony? It's a man with a wife and
kids. Yeah, my fucking ears work. Fred, You don't ever have
to patronize me. I didn't mean to. Question two, Okay, Question
two? How long can any normal man withstand being bludgeoned by the greedy tyrannical
banking system current leam place? Okay? Did you get that? Yeah?
I got it, Tony. Now I got one last question, and you
come up with all the other ones. I know I can be a talktor,
and I'm going to do a lot of talking, but I need these
three questions asked. It's important because these three questions spell it all out.
Okay, Tony, all right? The question three? I'm ready, Tony.
Do you regret having killed Dick? Tony? You get that one down
for it? Tony? Did you kill Dick? You got that down,
didn't you? Fred? I need you to answer me now, Tony.
Is Dick alive? Yeah, he's alive. Tony. Now, now you
know there's a there's a condition here. You know we can't do this interview
if you kill him. You told me that you wouldn't hurt him. He's
fun right now. Do you want to talk to him? You need to?
Do you want to talk to him? Dick say, good morning,
fred Tony. I'm here, Fred say, good morning, Good morning,
fred Tony. Now I'm I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to get
you what you need. Now. Now, I'm I'm I'm not a lawyer.
I'm not your lawyer, but I think we all need to negotiate,
and you need to keep Dick alive. You understand, No, don't make
any demands, Fred, was that that was? That was Jim, my
producer. He just wants me to be real careful about this. That wasn't
no fucking Jim. I know what Jim sounds like because you said that was
Jim yesterday and that wasn't the same goddamn voice, Tony. It was Jim.
I don't know what to tell you. It's Jim. You put him
on the phone right up now, Jim who wants to speak with you?
This is Jim. Jim, what do you do when listening in my private
conversation with Fred. We just want to help with whatever we can. Mister
Cursus, No, you fucking mister chriss me. You tell me right now.
Are you associated with the law enforcement? No? I am not associated
with law enforcement. I work down here at the station. Who comes on
after Friend, I'm sorry in the morning, God damn it. Who comes
on after Fred shows over? Who comes on after Fred show the seat?
What I fucking said? You've breat pieces of shit? Motherfucker. Put right
on the phone right now. Okay, Okay, Fred, Fred Now Tony,
Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony, it's Fred. What the fuck?
What the fuck are you trying to pull on me? Friend, Tony?
I don't understand. You're a goddamn producer, doesn't know who works on
your fucking radio station. Tony, how do you connection? It's not great
over here. He probably couldn't hear you too well. Don't give me that
shit, Friend, You don't give me that shit. You're the man I
trust, You're the man I respect. You're not freend Tony. I am
your friend. I'm your friend and I want to be your best friend.
But if we're going to if if we're gonna be like that, you've got
to trust me. You have to trust me. Okay. I don't know
how to explain what happened just now, But that was my producer, Jim,
and he's just in here listening because he has to know what to expect
for our interview later today. Now do you trust me? Things like that
can't be happening, Fred, Listen, Tony, I know, Okay.
I want to be your best friend too. That's good. Good. Now,
my lorder just got here, and we're working on my immunity deal and
my deal for five million dollars. So I gotta get off the phone and
I get my money. But I'll talk to you in a few hours,
man, and we'll do that interview. Okay, Tony, all right,
you got those questions. You can't kill Dick, Tony. If you kill
Dick, we won't do the interview. All right, I'll talk to you
any few hours, man. Take care of yourself, Tony. So what
do you think Roy mt ten? Next time on American Hostage? Tony thinks
for friends, You're gonna tell him we'll give him something if he gives up
something, but you can trade us something. What does that mean for?
We're not keeping him on the air. If he shoots Dick, he might
set up the whole building. I'm getting sick of everyone saying what we can't
do without telling me what I should do. Well, as you can already
tell, we are currently on the line with mister Curtz America wants to talk
to the crazy man who could have seen that coming. If we don't open
the lines, does he shoot him? Yes. American Hostage is an Amazon
Original and Criminal content production written by C. D. Carpenter, directed by
Shaan Christiansen, produced by Adam Volerich and Brendan Hubbard. Executive produced by John
Hamm, Shaan Christiansen and Gabriel Mason. Starring John Hamm, Carla Gugino,
Joe Perino, Dylan Baker, and Becky Anne Baker, with additional performances by
James O'Connor, Ryan Willard, Shawn Christiansen, Michael Dreyer. Sound designed by
Brandon Jones, composed by Darren Morsey, Editing by Thomas Beach, Shn Christiansen
and Adam Volidge. Recording and engineering by Dave Williams, Mixing, mastering and
additional editing by Nick Missidi I d Reads by Natalie Prass for Amazon Music.
Executive produce are Morgan Jones and Dave Easton. Senior producer is Eliza Mills.
Special thanks to Jacob Braunstein, Phil Sanchez, Chris Davis, Jack Parker,
Marcelino Valpondo, Stephanie walknein Blad, Norman Vanessa Rebert, Sam Petherbridge, Cale
Bittner, Alice Zoe, Trevor McNeil ty, Jacobsen, Rich Sherman Marshall,
Louie w IBC, WISH TV, and Creative Artists Agency,