WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.919 I am spearheading a DNA inquiry. What we actually are calling it is a 2 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:13.400 study of morphologically unusual samples. We are looking at biological samples that appear to 3 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.800 be unusual. Samples are being found, and I hear these from folks who 4 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:22.800 largely know what they're looking at. They have samples of hair, for example, 5 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.160 that don't seem to look like any known species. And in fact, 6 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:33.359 some of these folks have really done some pretty rigorous analysis they've in terms of 7 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:39.880 looking at these things under a microscope. They have found that these specimens share 8 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:45.520 common features with one another, but again don't seem to match up with any 9 00:00:46.159 --> 00:01:30.000 known North American species. This is Bigfoot Crossroads. I'm Matt, and I've 10 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:36.280 got a very special guest with me on this episode. I am joined by 11 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:44.799 Darby Orcutt of North Carolina State University, and Darby is spearheading a new Bigfoot 12 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:49.599 DNA inquiry. I guess is that what you would call it, Darby? 13 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:57.079 Yes, indeed, I am spearheading a DNA inquiry. What we actually are 14 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:06.439 calling it is a study of alleged morphologically unusual samples. And what that means 15 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:13.599 is we are looking at We are looking at biological samples that appear to be 16 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:21.280 unusual. And in the case how this relates to bigfoot the bigfoot community is 17 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:30.680 that they're our claims that samples are being found, and I hear these from 18 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:38.840 folks who are who largely know what they're looking at, that they have samples 19 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:46.639 of hair, for example, that don't seem to look like any known species. 20 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:52.240 And in fact, some of these folks have really done some pretty rigorous 21 00:02:52.280 --> 00:03:00.439 analysis they've in terms of looking at these things under a microscope. They have 22 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:07.680 found that these specimens share common features with one another, but again don't seem 23 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:14.759 to match up with any known North American species. Well, that's an interesting 24 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:21.080 question, what is that? So we're looking at these unusual samples. Most 25 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:24.680 of the unusual samples that I presume will be looking at are alleged to be 26 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:30.919 or suspected to be sasquatch because these are the folks who are finding them. 27 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:38.719 These specimens are being found in conjunction with sighting reports and things like that. 28 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:46.680 So we are not per se looking for bigfoot. What we are doing is 29 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:53.960 that we are looking at We are looking at these unusual samples to determine what 30 00:03:54.080 --> 00:04:01.680 they are. Now, certainly there is the possibility that hey, we could 31 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:09.599 discover a new species in North America. But that's just one of a whole 32 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:15.279 range of possibilities. But what I can tell you is this two things. 33 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:21.560 One, these are things worth looking at because they appear to be unusual. 34 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:30.199 There's something very there's something very interesting here to be found. Secondly, whatever 35 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:36.439 these samples are, they are something. So if somebody is saying, hey, 36 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:41.120 we have some evidence here, well, indeed, it's evidence we do. 37 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:46.199 We don't know at this stage what is evidence of, right, But 38 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.680 that's a really interesting question, and so that's what we're trying to determine. 39 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:57.120 I'm kind of familiar with the types of hair samples you're talking about. They've 40 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.480 been around for a while. I believe it was doctor or hen Or Ferrenbach 41 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:06.639 that first kind of brought these things to light. There's some very specific details 42 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:14.279 about the hairs themselves that don't seem to really match anything we know that's out 43 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:20.839 there in the woods, at least in North America. And so basically you're 44 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:30.319 taking these type samples or whatever other biological samples there are coming from I guess 45 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:36.360 bigfoot investigators or whoever, and trying to figure out where these hairs are coming 46 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:44.000 from exactly, since they don't appear to be any known hair samples compared to 47 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:49.040 you know, things like deer and bare mountain lions and such. Is that 48 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:54.279 the gist of it. Yeah, that's the idea, of course. The 49 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:58.199 first thing that we'll do is we'll look at them. We'll look at the 50 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.720 hair or or whatever the whatever the sample is, We'll look at it microscopically 51 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:11.040 ourselves to uh see if we share in that assessment. Um. And then 52 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:16.360 uh, for those that aren't easily identifiable as a as a known species, 53 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:23.879 well we'll move on to genetic testing. Uh. And yeah, I've talked 54 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:29.680 about hair because that's the those are the majority of the samples that are being 55 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:33.120 offered to us thus far. And that I hear that that that that people 56 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:41.399 have, UM. But the study is absolutely open to any any biological samples. 57 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.000 Uh. Let me let me back up to one thing that you said, 58 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:51.399 because you mentioned doctor Henter Farhrenbach. And doctor Farrenbach uh, for for 59 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:58.839 those who may not know the name, was very active in uh in looking 60 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:05.279 at particular really hair specimens, uh, microscopically back in the nineteen nineties and 61 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:10.959 the early two thousands. Um. And there are there is a lot of 62 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.680 uh sort of common knowledge or lore if you will, in the big Foot 63 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:23.920 community and especially around uh doctor Fehrenbach's hair analysis, because the idea is, 64 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:28.120 and I hear this repeated a lot, and and so you're in good company 65 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:34.720 that that doctor Farrenbach had had noted some particular features that that that he felt 66 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:42.439 distinguished sasquatch hair. Um. But that actually, I'll tell you the truth, 67 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:46.319 that actually is not true. UM. And I can say that with 68 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:51.120 confidence because in preparing for the study over the last several years, one of 69 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:57.120 the things that I did so I actually tracked down doctor Farrenbach. Uh. 70 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:03.279 He is he retired uh over twenty years ago. UM, but he is, 71 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:07.480 he is still around and I was able to to track him down. 72 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.439 In fact, I spoke with him on the phone as recently as last week. 73 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:18.639 UM. And he tells me, actually that that that that that's not 74 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.160 true that he did. He isn't one who said these are features of sasquatch 75 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:28.560 hair um. And in his estimation he said there there are in terms of 76 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.600 looking at um. For example, one of the pieces one of the pieces 77 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.679 that people say is though they have different scaling patterns. UH. Doctor Fehrenbach 78 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:46.559 says he doesn't think that scaling patterns distinguish sasquatch hair from the hair of of 79 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.559 of human beings UM. And he has a number of reasons for that. 80 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:58.200 He's probably looked at more uh probably more hair of all species, let alone 81 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:07.039 more alleged squatch here than than anyone UM and UH in his estimation, you 82 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.159 know that that that idea that there are certain features that that that you can 83 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.799 count on is not established. But that's something that we want to test with 84 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.080 a study. And he's really excited to see what comes of this study because 85 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.679 if we do find that, you know, there are certain hairs to certain 86 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:33.720 features that UM relate genetically to whatever species again, whether it's an unknown species 87 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:41.039 of you know that that might be sasquatch, or whether it's an unknown scaling 88 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:48.120 pattern uh found in black bears or whatever it may be. UM, he's 89 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:54.320 really interested to see, uh what what comes to the study. I did 90 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:58.360 not know that that's some really interesting information because you know, like you said, 91 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:05.080 myself along with many other people have attributed that information to him for many 92 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:11.600 many years. Yeah, it's funny. He retired. He retired from academia 93 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:18.039 a long time ago, and he actually has been outside of the Bigfoot community 94 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:24.080 now for I believe well over a decade, and so he's not really connected 95 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:26.919 with folks. In fact, when I was first trying to track him down 96 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.559 and looking for leads on where he might be, I was told again and 97 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:37.080 again that everyone was certain that he was dead. So he thought that was 98 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:46.639 kind of funny because he's actually very much alive and and still sharp. So 99 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:52.320 is there a particular catalyst that kind of kicked this off? Now, why 100 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.159 did you choose to do this now? Anything behind it? Or is it 101 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:00.840 just something that you've been wanting to do for a while. Well, it's 102 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:07.080 actually something that I've been working on for a while. A major, uh, 103 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:13.480 interdisciplinary scientific research project at a major university doesn't happen overnight, right, 104 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:20.240 So um, but I'll tell you I can give you the the the nutshell 105 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:28.000 version of how I became interested in this um was that I was my my 106 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:35.000 my role at NC State University. I've been on faculty there for over twenty 107 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:41.000 years now, and my primary faculty appointment is as a librarian, but not 108 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:46.080 practicing librarianship in the way that most people think of not checking out books to 109 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:56.000 people, not checking out books to people at all. But my my, 110 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:03.840 my major role on the campus internally to the campus is to help in putting 111 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:18.159 together and supporting interdisciplinary research teams, teams that include folks from multiple, multiple 112 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:26.480 disciplines, different fields of study to answer the sorts of questions that where it's 113 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:35.039 not a question that can only be answered from one narrow perspective. And so 114 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:41.759 that's something that I've been doing for many, many years at NC State. 115 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.320 I love that work. It's it's it's really great because I get to work 116 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:52.440 with really smart colleagues in all different kinds of fields, and I do a 117 00:12:52.480 --> 00:13:00.279 lot of the work of interpreting between these fields, of making sure that the 118 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:07.960 research agendas of each of these these different researchers as being served as well as 119 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:16.240 that we're moving towards a goal together. And through one of these projects, 120 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:24.919 I actually got really interested in questions of how science draws its its boundaries, 121 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:31.679 why certain questions are, for lack of a better word, allowed in mainstream 122 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:39.320 science, and others are kind of shunned or stayed away from or considered fringe. 123 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:46.240 And I've been teaching from I've been teaching along the way as well, 124 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:54.039 and teaching courses about how science works. How science works, not just in 125 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.320 the way that it says it works, like hey, you do this and 126 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:03.159 follow this method, but how science works in our culture, how it fits 127 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:09.600 in with economic systems, how it fits in with the media, and every 128 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:18.639 which way that you can imagine. And so I envisioned at that point teaching 129 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.600 a course, and I started doing this. I was teaching a course that 130 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:28.879 I'm still teaching today. It's now a permanent course sidency state. But the 131 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:35.559 course is about science and these kind of fringe areas or these fields of study 132 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:43.879 that are on the edge or even considered outside of mainstream science. And that 133 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:50.919 was how I came to I came to the Sasquatch because I thought this was 134 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.840 an excellent example of a field where you would think, on the one hand, 135 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:03.440 that there would be kind a normal scientific approach, if you will, 136 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:11.960 to this question of you know, of of Bigfoot. But the picture in 137 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.120 the real world is much much more complex, of course, very muddy, 138 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:24.720 very muddy, indeed, very much so. And so uh, the Sasquatch 139 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:31.679 became a wonderful example to think about how the study of something could be in 140 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:39.159 or out in scientific circles or how those lines are drawn. And so that 141 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:46.039 was how I came to looking at these questions. And in fact, one 142 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:50.840 of the one of the folks in the the Bigfoot community, if you will, 143 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.919 that I got to know, fortunately never met in person, but spent 144 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:03.120 a lot of time on the phone with and really enjoyed um was doctor John 145 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:12.519 Bendernagle. And John was a PhD and wildlife biologist, and he it was 146 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:18.559 really interesting because he wrote a book, his second book was called The Discovery 147 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:26.480 of the Sasquatchum, and he was grappling with this question of he had all 148 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:36.360 this what he considered good evidence to show that this that that Sasquatch question was 149 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.960 a really interesting question, and yet he felt stymied in in being able to 150 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:47.639 present this evidence to the scientific community. And so that led him to in 151 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:55.159 that book really exploring the cultural aspects of science that we're leading to the question 152 00:16:55.879 --> 00:17:00.279 being brushed aside, if you will, or ignored. On the flip side. 153 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.799 Here, I was coming from a place where I was wanting to teach, 154 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:11.200 and I was teaching about the cultural influence, the cultural influence on science 155 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:17.359 and so forth in that relationship, and then came to the question of sasquatch 156 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:21.200 as an example of that. So we used to laugh that we were sort 157 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.519 of ended up coming kind of a somewhat of the same place, but from 158 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:33.680 completely different directions. It was really something, uh, And so the so 159 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:41.039 one of the things that I really had been thinking about for for for quite 160 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.319 a few years was was what One of the things that I really tried to 161 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:52.880 try to do in the course is to have my students doing their own work 162 00:17:52.960 --> 00:18:03.400 embodying how to study whatever strange topic. So they had some firsthand experience with 163 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.720 trying to take a scientific approach to looking at something that you know, a 164 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:12.359 lot of people might consider outside of science. So how do you do that? 165 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:17.160 So I wanted to do that for myself, of course, and so 166 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:22.440 I do that. I do. Actually, I'm involved with leading some research 167 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.519 and some a couple of strange areas, and sasquatch certainly being one of those. 168 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.000 And so when I started to look to say, you know, how 169 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:42.000 could I make a difference in our scientific understanding of the sasquatch question, I 170 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:47.640 said, well, I mean, in some ways I'm very well suited to 171 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:55.960 this based on my career. I'm good at putting together teams that can tackle 172 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:03.160 tough questions, and certainly the question of what accounts for the sasquatch phenomenon has 173 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:10.720 uh uh continued to be a really tough question. UM, And so I 174 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.519 thought, you know, this is something that I can do. But it 175 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:18.720 took me. It took me several years uh to really gather the right team 176 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:26.000 uh to uh to to put this together. And I also recognized in that 177 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:34.240 time that, uh, there have been a number of um, there's been 178 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:37.839 a let's put it this way, there's been an interesting relationship, but not 179 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:52.119 always a pleasant relationship between uh uh bigfoot investigators and uh folks who have been 180 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:59.680 attempting to uh do some sort of of DNA work in this area. Um, 181 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:04.000 They're been very few who have really attempted to to uh even look at 182 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:14.640 um, look at specimens genetic you know, genetically, and then beyond that, 183 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:23.960 there really hasn't been ah, a serious full academic study of this. 184 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.079 There've been some folks who looked at some things, you know, given their 185 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:37.880 opinions, done you know, individual analyzes, but in terms of in terms 186 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:44.480 of academic studies, really the only one that had happened happened previously was was 187 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:51.960 doctor psych study, but that was so small. I think in the final 188 00:20:52.000 --> 00:21:00.559 publication, Uh, I think he had analyzed somewhere between a half and a 189 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:06.720 dozen samples from North America, which is of course nothing in the grand scheme 190 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:14.799 of things. How many samples are you hoping to analyze? Well, UM, 191 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:19.559 we'll see. UM. At this point, you know, certainly we 192 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:26.039 can't. We can't analyze more samples than are offered to us. And so 193 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:36.480 that's where I'm really hopeful that folks who have interesting samples will will step up. 194 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.440 UM. I know I've shared with you the online intake survey, and 195 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.400 so I hope you'll please put that in your show notes. Yeah, for 196 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:52.440 sure, for sure. UH. That's that's the first step is to fill 197 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:57.599 out that form, and it asks folks for information about what you have, 198 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.839 why you think it's interesting, UM, you know where when you found it, 199 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:10.720 some questions about the collection and the storage of that. UM. This 200 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:18.799 this form is really to help us in UM prioritizing which samples we're going to 201 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:26.480 begin with in the order that we'll move through them in UH. And the 202 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:32.920 sooner that folks can fill that out certainly the better, UM. Because if 203 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.480 you have a sample in hand now it's never going to get fresher than it 204 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:42.519 is right now, and we'll just we'll see. We haven't set you know, 205 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:45.440 folks have asked me. It's it's funny. In fact, the very 206 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.400 day that that that we launched this, people were asking me, well, 207 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.920 how long are you going to be running this for? I'm like, well, 208 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.759 we just launched. I mean, we haven't said a date. I 209 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.599 mean, I get it. Sometimes, you know people, sometimes scientists do 210 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.839 a limited study and they say we'll take samples for a month or whatever. 211 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.440 We're not doing that. This is this is open ended because we really want 212 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:17.039 to get the best and the most interesting samples that there are. Um As 213 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:22.759 you might expect, we're not going to run this project forever, but uh, 214 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.279 you know, we haven't. We're not worrying about setting an end date 215 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:32.039 at this stage in the game. We're more interested with getting good quality, 216 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:37.640 interesting samples to look at. So I can't give you a number as to 217 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:45.960 how many, uh we'll end up looking at. It really depends on again 218 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:53.039 how many how many good, potentially interesting samples are offered to us, because 219 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:57.319 that's uh, that's going to be what what what really drives this and keeps 220 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:04.960 us going so you're with North Carolina State? Yes, who all is involved 221 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.400 in this project? I mean you don't have to give people's specific names, 222 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.359 but it is an academic project. So is it just is it North Carolina 223 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.799 State sponsored for lack of better term, or are there other universities involved? 224 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:25.200 Is this just all your baby? Well, I am spearheading this, but 225 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:30.799 no, it is not just me. As I told you about my background, 226 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:36.880 my expertise is in bringing together the right people to really to really look 227 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:42.240 at things. So what I have is we have a core team, and 228 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:56.200 the core team led by myself but also includes two PhD's researchers in genetics and 229 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:07.079 genomics, one of whom especially has tremendous expertise in wildlife forensics. Um and 230 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:17.000 uh my our fourth faculty collaborator is a microscopist, meaning somebody who's an expert 231 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:22.440 at looking at things under the microscope. Um and uh and just I mean 232 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:30.880 has I won't even I could fan boy about his microscope because he's he's got 233 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.200 he's got um absolutely maybe the best equipment in the in in North America right 234 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:42.319 now. I mean I gotta say for doing like microscopiece. So uh now, 235 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:49.079 just amazing, amazing people. UH. And then UH we also have 236 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:57.200 UH PhD students in in in genetics as well. In each of my colleagues 237 00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:03.680 labs with two lab they've run two different labs UM, and we have PhD 238 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:08.440 students in those labs who are also involved and really excited to be a part 239 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:17.480 of it. In addition to that, UM I actually have on deck a 240 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:25.880 whole host of folks both from NC State and from other universities. So the 241 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.440 core team is all NC State faculty UM, but I have on deck a 242 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:37.039 number of people who are ready to step in and join on the project if 243 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:47.559 and when we receive specimens that are interesting, specimens that are in their areas 244 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:57.559 of expertise. And so for example, just to give one example, you've 245 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:03.720 you've you've probably seen at some point you saw the TV show Bones. I'm 246 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.640 familiar with it. Yeah, I have our real life bones. UH. 247 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:18.200 She's she's an anthropolos. She's an anthropologist focused on uh osteology. So if 248 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:23.720 we get if we get bones, if we get teeth, she is ready 249 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:30.960 to hop in there and and uh and work on that and is just absolutely 250 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:38.359 absolutely amazing scholar and researcher. UM. I have again, a whole list 251 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:45.200 of folks in different areas, depending on what we might run into or what 252 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:49.960 gets offered to us. Uh. These these people, however, some of 253 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:56.400 them are staying in the closet until they actually have something they can contribute to 254 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:03.640 some of these additional folks. UM and yeah, but they're they're all very 255 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.720 very excited. So but it would depend on it would depend you'll, like 256 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.319 I say, it depends on what we receive. Um. I know that 257 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:19.400 we're I know that we have offers of of hair already, we've had offers 258 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:29.799 of um uh uh skin surface lipids, which are these um these are folks 259 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:40.480 are finding uh these large handprints on the glass of like vehicles or windows, 260 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:47.599 uh that look like look like large handprints. Uh. And so the idea 261 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:51.720 I think that that that they have is that this is a you know, 262 00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:56.079 this is a sasquatch handprint, and it leaves behind a kind of a white 263 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:04.400 residue, a really greasy to do, which actually, uh is parallel to 264 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:11.400 what goulas we'll leave. So I've I've talked with zookeepers who who keep gorillas, 265 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:15.559 and they have to get in there and really really scrub to get these 266 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:22.319 handprints off of the enclosures. UM. So that's a material that's uh, 267 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:30.160 that's worth looking at. This is probably um lipids or it's basically a secretion 268 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.000 from the hand We have them ourselves. We have we have we have skin 269 00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:41.319 surface lipids on our hands. Uh. It's just that ours aren't that pronounced 270 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:45.960 at all. Right, UM, but uh, you know, certain other 271 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:52.240 species of apes do have you know, you know, really different uh composition, 272 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:57.920 and you know, like say, gorillas leave handprints their enclosures in zoos. 273 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:03.039 So it's an interesting question again. I mean, this is this is 274 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:08.319 just fascinating stuff to look at. UM. Now beyond that, I would 275 00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:14.519 love it if we're offered other types of things, if folks, uh, 276 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:19.480 if folks end up offering us bone, teeth, blood, you know whatever. 277 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:26.240 In fact, it's even an option to uh to uh uh offer to 278 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.279 submit an entire body. Uh. I mean yeah, for that person that's 279 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:36.680 been sitting on one this whole time, now's your opportunity to just drag her 280 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.240 on in. It is. And I mean the point being that, um, 281 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.920 you know, we we are hanging out the shingle, uh, that 282 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:52.680 we would like to look at these unusual samples, and we didn't want to. 283 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.240 Um, you know, it's it's funny. You know, my colleagues 284 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:00.720 at first, you know, they led a little bit when because I wrote 285 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:07.000 the initial draft of the intake form and I had that on their entire body, 286 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.079 and my colleagues you know, chuckled a little bit and they said, 287 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:17.519 you know, actually that is so smart because uh, you know, going 288 00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:22.480 through and putting together a big study like this. UM. I think the 289 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:27.119 other thing that that the the uh, the unacknowledged work often that people don't 290 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:33.039 recognize is that with the university, there's a lot of paperwork. UM. 291 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:38.240 So I had to go through uh call the institutional Review board process, which 292 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:45.160 is essentially an ethics review uh in large part to make sure that we are 293 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:51.440 treating people, uh, we are treating people with respect and ethically and uh 294 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.720 so and that there are there are uh their security in place. So for 295 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:05.559 example, if folks would like to offer h offer um samples to the project, 296 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:10.039 they can do so. Uh you know, they can do so with 297 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:15.559 full credit, like hey, where we'll say, hey, this was a 298 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:20.759 sample found by this person who wants everybody to know that they found it. 299 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.920 Or you can choose, you know, or you can choose, on the 300 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:30.119 other extreme, to be completely anonymous. In other words, I want to 301 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.960 submit this sample, I want to get results from you, but I don't 302 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:40.559 want you to ever tell anybody that I was involved. And that's absolutely fine, 303 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:46.279 because that's where some people are. Everybody who contributes a sample that we 304 00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:53.559 UH, that we ask them to submit and analyze, will receive results for 305 00:32:53.680 --> 00:33:04.200 their sample. UM and UH. And again this is because because this is 306 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:10.559 an established study, there are protocols in place again to keep keep data private. 307 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.920 Needs to be kept private for example, too, whether you choose to 308 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:21.960 be identified or not. UM. We are not going to be disclosing any 309 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:29.319 specific locations where samples were found. We're going to ask for that information, 310 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:35.119 but we're not going to we're not going to share that beyond the core research 311 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:39.640 team. We certainly don't want to be in a position of you know, 312 00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:45.359 sending uh, you know, sending folks to somebody's backyard, because the serious 313 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:50.799 are we so we're absolutely not doing that. You know, you know, 314 00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:57.480 bigfooters are very distrusting, a lot of them borderline paranoid, if not all 315 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:05.079 the way across the border. And whenever it comes to the Bigfoot communities relationship, 316 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:10.559 with the scientific community. You know, there's a lot of doubt and 317 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:16.000 a lot of distrust, and I'm probably I'm pretty certain that there's some people 318 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:21.639 listening right now. Whenever this episode comes out, they're just going to be 319 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:25.480 like, why should I trust this guy who They're gonna even if they find 320 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.679 something, they're just going to cover it up. Is there any words that 321 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:36.360 you can give to maybe sway people's trust a little bit, to let them 322 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:38.320 know that this is on the up and up and that nothing is going to 323 00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:44.559 be covered up or you know what I mean. I'm sure you've heard of 324 00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:49.920 that before in the bigfoot world. Oh absolutely no. And I understand and 325 00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:54.199 you know, and I guess you know, part of it is warranted based 326 00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:00.800 on some of what's happened in the past, and that is really that's really 327 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:09.239 troubling to me. Um I what's what's so difficult with this is that there 328 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:15.920 have been and I know because I've talked to folks, there have been some 329 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:23.920 some individual scientists who, while very well meaning, have taken samples and lost 330 00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:31.000 them or whatever. It happens a lot for some reason. Well I think 331 00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:36.400 one of the reasons that what I will say that hopefully we'll put people at 332 00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:42.000 ease. Is that part of why that has happened in the past is because 333 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:52.280 by and large, again, there there hasn't been a formal study that these 334 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:57.599 samples have been going into. Now they I can't really speak to the psych 335 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.800 study because that was a formal study, but that was in conjunction with a 336 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:10.599 media production. Um. This study is not so. UM. I'm sure 337 00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:15.760 that I know already that there will be some media coverage of it, but 338 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:19.239 it is not. This is not for media production. I can tell you 339 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:24.280 that right now. UM. This is uh really stimming from my own curiosity. 340 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.840 UM. Because again the more I've the more I've looked at the more 341 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:37.360 I've looked at this area, the more I've found things to be curious about. 342 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:43.760 UM. And it is uh, it is really difficult. I mean, 343 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:51.440 how do you satisfy this curiosity when there's not data to do so with? 344 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:58.599 Right? Um, we don't have results of DNA studies. Again, 345 00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:07.039 the individu usual academics who may have looked at samples in the past have given 346 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:16.159 their opinions on these things, and their opinions in many cases are expert opinions, 347 00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:24.199 but they haven't necessarily released They haven't in any case released their data that 348 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:30.159 is required for peer review to actually take place right now. Again, in 349 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:37.679 fairness, none of them, other than psychs, no academic has has really 350 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:46.760 it's really set out to do a study. And I think that's that's the 351 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.920 interesting thing. I mean, uh, several years ago, and part of 352 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:58.320 my impetus for this was because a lot of sasquatch investigators were telling me, 353 00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:02.639 oh, I've found this sample, and I think it's interesting. What lab 354 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:07.079 should I send it to? What commercial lab can I pay to analyze this 355 00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.320 for me? And I really looked into that question, and one of the 356 00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:21.480 things that I found was that I wasn't convinced. Let's put it this way, 357 00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:25.760 I wasn't convinced that any lab, any commercial lab, was really equipped 358 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:36.880 to to be able to properly judge if something truly were an unknown species. 359 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:45.719 And beyond that, based on particularly a couple of lab reports that were shared 360 00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:53.960 with me, where investigators had sent samples to labs, I wasn't convinced that 361 00:38:54.039 --> 00:39:01.639 the labs were really doing their due diligence and properly even identifying these samples. 362 00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:07.280 And that was troubling to me, and I thought, well, surely there 363 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:13.719 can be better, and so I really I set out to try to make 364 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.519 it better. So that's how we got to hear. I had folks, 365 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:23.840 uh several years ago who had samples and said, let me send you this, 366 00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:27.760 let me send you this that, so that your folks can take a 367 00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.199 look at it. And I was saying, no, wait, I don't 368 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:36.719 want to take anything until I have a formal study, until I have this 369 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:43.880 process set up, until you know, until this is really truly running. 370 00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:50.079 And now we're at that point finally, um so now I can say to 371 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:55.239 folks, look, it's time. It's time to offer your samples for the 372 00:39:55.320 --> 00:40:04.719 study. You will get results. I think for some folks they may or 373 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:08.519 may not be you know, the individual results that they may want to see, 374 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:15.920 but they will be the results of what their samples are. And I'm 375 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:22.559 really curious to see what we find. I'm really curious with these hairs, 376 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:30.400 for example, that seem to share these common features and don't look like known 377 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:37.119 species. What are those That's a really interesting question. So I just this 378 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:44.800 is finally, I think the chance to to be able to get some data 379 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:57.039 in order to in order to help to determine what might be going on let 380 00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:00.840 me ask you a couple of things that I hear brought up repeatedly in the 381 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:07.880 bigfoot community. It's something that I've questioned myself. However, most of us 382 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:14.480 out there who have an interest in this subject are not scientists. We don't 383 00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:19.920 really know how genetics work. We don't know how DNA works. We just 384 00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:23.039 go by the articles that we read and you know, the television shows we 385 00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:30.480 watch. One of those things is that several different people over the years have 386 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:38.519 reported that they've gotten results back that said human contamination, and that posed the 387 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:46.000 question, what if bigfoot is a type of human genetically? Yes, is 388 00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:51.360 this something that could be determined or would it just be assumed that it was 389 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:58.440 contaminated? Great question, and I'm glad you asked that, because that is 390 00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:06.519 a question that is going to remain unresolved until it's investigated. And yes, 391 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:15.280 that is absolutely something that we will be investigating. Uh. Yeah, you 392 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:23.159 know again, in some cases, I think certainly human contamination is a factor 393 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:34.639 and maybe a factor in and so certainly you know it would be you don't 394 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.960 want to assume that like, oh, if it said human contamination, maybe 395 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.119 it wasn't. Maybe it wasn't, but maybe it was as well. But 396 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:49.400 yeah, we definitely need to look at that. And so there are a 397 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:54.159 couple of things about that. One. Because of the expertise of my colleagues, 398 00:42:55.320 --> 00:43:01.679 I'm less concerned with I'm really not I'm not concerned at all, honestly 399 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:07.599 with not being able to recognize when there's you know, when there's human contamination. 400 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:15.280 But also because that question has been raised, because that question is on 401 00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:21.199 our radar, that is something that we're We're going to take those samples to 402 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:29.159 the next step in order to determine, Hey, is this human contamination coming 403 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:37.280 from humans who are collecting this or you know, as you say, is 404 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:45.199 there something more to this? We certainly are well aware of the possibility that 405 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:54.000 if there is a sasquatch species out there, that that species could be very 406 00:43:54.239 --> 00:44:02.840 very close to Homo sapiens. In fact, quite frankly, as I set 407 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:10.960 out the parameters of this study, UM, we are even including the possibility 408 00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:19.320 in our thinking that there could be that SA sasquatch, if you will, 409 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:28.880 could be a population of Homo sapiens, in other words, a type of 410 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:36.719 person. Um even you know, if that is the case, Um, 411 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:44.559 if the if the DNA samples are robust enough and you know, not not 412 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:52.119 terribly degraded, we will be able to determine whether that is a possibility. 413 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.639 Uh So, absolutely, I think it's it's a you know, I think 414 00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:01.880 that it is a really good thing to me make sure that we're asking those 415 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:07.920 questions. We are very open and we have designed this study to be open 416 00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:15.679 to the full range of possibility of what we might be looking at, because 417 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:24.280 it would I mean again if if if Sasquatch is an extant species, and 418 00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:31.920 again it might be very very close to human. So we don't want to 419 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:37.880 assume, we don't want to assume that, oh, if we get close 420 00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:43.239 enough to human, we can just stop looking right now. We need to 421 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:45.880 ask that question or else is going to continue to be an open question. 422 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:52.119 The other part to that is a lot of people talk about, well, 423 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:59.079 these DNA studies all look for results of known species, and since there's no 424 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:06.039 uh bigfoot DNA on file to compare it to, it just comes back as 425 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.000 contaminator or whatever through you know, throughout the results. Basically, so are 426 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:15.960 you, guys, I assume going to compare uh sample results. Let's just 427 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:21.679 say that you get several different samples that are good enough to actually be tested 428 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:27.039 genetically. Are you going to compare those results and see if they match well? 429 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:34.920 What we'll be doing is we'll be comparing those results to UH databases of 430 00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:44.880 of of species and populations uh in order to in order to determine what these 431 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:52.280 what these samples are. UM. It's actually a common misconception that without having 432 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:59.559 a reference species, you can't identify a new species. That's actually wrong that 433 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:07.960 um. Uh. We we have had plenty of species um that have been 434 00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:15.920 already identified in that manner. And the reason being is is that all life 435 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:22.599 on Earth, all life on Earth has DNA, and all life on Earth 436 00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:34.519 UH shares uh commonalities in that DNA so UM. So In other words, 437 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:42.400 um, all all living species on this planet, from plants to humans. 438 00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:50.559 Okay, are you know share some DNA? UM? You share something like 439 00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:57.719 uh forty percent of of your DNA with with a heat alettus. You share 440 00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:07.079 a lot more of your DNA uh with a chimpanzee. Okay um uh. 441 00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:15.119 And and again as as you know, as the as the evolutionary tree branches 442 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:22.880 off U, there are different places where different things fit. So any any 443 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:30.239 sample okay is uh, provided that you know, provided the DNA isn't so 444 00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:36.239 degraded that you can't test it. But any sample that you have is going 445 00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:40.639 to fit somewhere on that tree of life. If you've got a sample of 446 00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:45.719 you would notice this through microscopy. But if you had a sample of a 447 00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:52.559 of a a small thread of wood for example, well, okay, you 448 00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:59.119 could identify that as a tree and you could identify the species. Um So 449 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:04.000 whatever sample you have is going to fit in there somewhere. Now, it 450 00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:09.119 would be possible, say, let's say that some of the common ideas of 451 00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.000 what sasquatch might be. Let's say one of those happens to be correct. 452 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:29.119 Okay, Then finding samples of this previously unknown species would very clearly situate it 453 00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:37.000 somewhere. It might be very very close to human, it might be closer 454 00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:46.519 to chimpanzee, it might be a descendant of some people suggestive gibbons. Wherever 455 00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:53.519 it is, though, it's going to fit squarely somewhere. So that's what's 456 00:49:53.559 --> 00:50:00.320 interesting is if you find, if you find, if you find DNA that 457 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:08.159 that is a direct match for say a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, 458 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:15.480 well then you know exactly where, you know exactly where that species diverged on 459 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:24.719 the on the evolutionary tree, and uh, you would probably suspect if we 460 00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:36.239 found something like that that well that probably is what's fitting sasquatch reports, or 461 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:39.880 at least many sasquatch reports, right, I mean, or if a hair 462 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:45.840 was found in conjunction with a sighting and it you know again it's it's uh, 463 00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:50.119 it's it seems to be share a common descend it with humans and chimpanzees. 464 00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:55.519 Well, boom, there it is. That's that's probably it. Yeah, 465 00:50:54.400 --> 00:51:00.599 example of that magnitude comes from anywhere in North America. You've got something 466 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:06.599 on your hands. Yeah, exactly. Now again I mean, uh, 467 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:10.960 you know again, I mean from a technical standpoint, Um, do you 468 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:15.639 know that that is the sample? You know, that sample is like you 469 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:21.000 know, quote unquote sasquatch. You know, well maybe not, but there's 470 00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:31.119 probably not multiple species of unknown primates wandering around the same woods. Um, 471 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.360 but you know, of course, you know, there is always you know, 472 00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:38.480 theoretically that possibility. There are some people that make a very nice living 473 00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:45.239 off of that idea. Actually, but you know, but that's where you 474 00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:49.199 know, obviously, with such a finding, eventually, uh, you know, 475 00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:53.119 then the next step would be to try to document a living species, 476 00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:59.440 uh in the wild. Um, but you would have done you know, 477 00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:06.920 the the DNA study alone would have done the work of establishing establishing the existence 478 00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:10.280 of a new species. If that's what this proves to be. Well, 479 00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:17.880 let's just say you win the lottery, okay, and uh you get amazing 480 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:23.320 results that have never been seen before. You said if I hit the lottery. 481 00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:25.719 I thought you meant if. At first, I thought you meant what 482 00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:30.559 if I actually hit the lottery. Now let me put people at ease. 483 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:34.360 I hit the lottery. If I hit the lot No, no, no, 484 00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.199 I did not at all. If I hit the lottery, it's a 485 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:45.599 study full time for me because because I'm so curious about this, I really 486 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:52.440 am. Uh uh And so uh yeah, it's not if I if I 487 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:54.519 hit the lottery, I'm not. I'm not checking out. If anything, 488 00:52:54.679 --> 00:53:00.280 I'm I'm checking it all the more. Well, I meant that I was 489 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:07.800 just meaning the genetic watery. Let's just say that you found novel DNA. 490 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:13.239 Okay. Wouldn't that be an amazing result? I mean, hey, I'd 491 00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:17.400 be happy. But then what happens after that? Well, that's a great 492 00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:21.679 question. But let's say I mean I think, I think what happens after 493 00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:30.400 that is really UM making sure you know, is establishing the species uh in 494 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:35.760 the wild, uh, documenting Uh yes that you know, Yes, yes, 495 00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:39.039 that's really out there. I mean again, the DNA alone will be 496 00:53:39.159 --> 00:53:46.320 enough to convince ninety nine percent of scientists that, yes, indeed, this 497 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:53.119 this species exists. If that's the finding, um, the uh as long 498 00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:59.440 as we have you know, a long as we have you know, even 499 00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:06.840 even just several matching samples from different locales, um, you know, I 500 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:13.239 think that that's enough to overwhelmingly convince the scientific community that, uh, there 501 00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:17.559 the species is there. It will tell us an awful lot about the species, 502 00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:22.840 at least genetically, but it will leave a lot of questions, UM, 503 00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:31.360 because it will not It will not answer for us, um exactly um 504 00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:37.400 exactly what the species looks like. It won't answer how the species behaves. 505 00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:44.159 It won't answer, uh exactly where does it live? Uh? How many 506 00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:47.679 are there? Uh you know? And I think you know, those are 507 00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:53.840 all questions that really would require UM field research. But the field research would 508 00:54:53.880 --> 00:55:05.159 be UM greatly enabled by the genetic information UM. And so yeah, so 509 00:55:05.239 --> 00:55:08.559 I mean that would be the next step. UM I'm I'm already uh, 510 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:14.400 I'm already resigned to the fact that if that's, if that happens to be 511 00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:21.039 a finding from this study, certainly my life changes, UM, because that 512 00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:27.119 that that that that would be a you know, absolutely a full time commitment 513 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:31.880 to um uh to that type of study. UM. And I think too 514 00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:37.000 that there's a lot there are a lot of questions uh for me that I've 515 00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:42.400 thought about just a little bit about, you know, how to how to 516 00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:49.760 make sure that a new species uh of any kind, but particularly if if 517 00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:55.599 if it is indeed a new primate species, UM, how that how we 518 00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:06.119 make sure that that that uh information UM gets out in a an ethical way, 519 00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:15.519 in a way that won't harm the species UH. And so that those 520 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:20.559 those would be my real concerns from that point, I think it would be 521 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:25.320 I think it would be absolutely fascinating, UM. I certainly, I certainly 522 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:31.679 think it would probably capture the imagination of a lot of people to learn that 523 00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:37.639 there was something like that out there in North America. And I think people, 524 00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:44.239 um even more people would be curious about, uh be curious about that 525 00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:51.800 is your project equipped to handle environmental DNA? We are at this point, 526 00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:55.360 UM, we we are equipped in the sense that, yes, we have 527 00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:04.119 the expertise to work with DNA, but at this stage that is not something 528 00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:10.079 that we are actively looking to work with. And the reason for that is 529 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:19.960 is that well, I mean, the reason is that biological samples are a 530 00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:30.679 much lower hanging fruit for for identifying species. DNA is a very tedious, 531 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:38.800 very expensive, and in the case of looking for potentially unknown species, really 532 00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:45.119 a crapshoot in terms of being able to find what you're looking for. The 533 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:52.079 reality is is that if we, if if there were an unknown species of 534 00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:58.960 whatever, even if it were just a different type of bear that we found 535 00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:06.400 out in the woods, you know, finding it through a study of actual 536 00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:15.199 samples, hair, bone, whatever, would then allow us to create primers 537 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:22.280 so that DNA work could be done far, far, faster, farm more 538 00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:28.599 efficiently. I want to kind of finish off here with a question going back 539 00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:37.480 to the distrust, you know and everything between the bigfoot community and the scientific 540 00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:43.000 community. Do you have any ideas on being able to like bridge that gap? 541 00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:49.079 I mean, whenever it comes to unexplained phenomenon in general. You know, 542 00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:53.800 this seems to be your wheelhouse. How science can approach those topics and 543 00:58:53.880 --> 00:59:00.679 everything. Yeah, how do we get the citizens scientists, you know, 544 00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:05.880 the layman researcher out there on the same page as the scientists and being able 545 00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:13.000 to present findings or get that interest to have the scientific community take a serious 546 00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:15.960 look at this sort of thing. Yeah, well, you know, it's 547 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:17.800 a it's a process, and I think a lot of it, you know, 548 00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:23.679 a lot of that process comes through trying to trying to understand one another. 549 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:30.599 I think we're at a point where in our in our culture at large, 550 00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:40.320 where science has science has become part of the political football, and I 551 00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:47.159 think that's really really unfortunate. Um. I think that people, um, 552 00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:58.000 in the general public oftentimes don't understand that there is no like capital s science 553 00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:00.480 if you will, U. And in fact, a lot of things that 554 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:07.039 you hear that science says this, and science says that is not actually coming 555 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:14.000 from science, scientists or the scientific community, UM, but is really coming 556 01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:24.360 from uh, just other ordinary citizens who are are trying to align themselves in 557 01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:31.239 a certain way. You know. It's interesting because you know, folks ask 558 01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:37.239 me, you know, aren't scientists you know, really prejudiced against this question 559 01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:43.159 and everything? And I'm like, well, no, not my experience. 560 01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:47.159 I mean I certainly know, you know, I certainly know a few scientists 561 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:50.480 who think, oh, you know this, you know, they just roll 562 01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:53.840 their eyes at the idea of bigfoot. And I don't want to suggest that 563 01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:58.480 there are lots of scientists out there who are like, you know, spending 564 01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:01.440 a lot of time thinking about because there certainly aren't. Um. But I 565 01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:08.440 will say that there are a lot of scientists who recognize that this is an 566 01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:15.119 area that really just hasn't been explored. UM. I have some, uh, 567 01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:22.920 I will say, internationally renowned friends and colleagues who are scientists who privately 568 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:27.280 will say to me, I'm really excited to see what comes of your study's 569 01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:31.239 really excited to find out what's going on here. Um. But they don't 570 01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:37.599 say that publicly, um uh, because you know, there's you know, 571 01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:43.800 there's a larger culture that's uh yeah, well, you know, makes them 572 01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:50.360 makes them be a little circumspect about how hardly they support that. But but 573 01:01:50.480 --> 01:01:55.360 you know, privately, I've had tremendous support from scientific colleagues, um, 574 01:01:55.679 --> 01:02:00.639 and you know, in tremendous support from the university to you know, to 575 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:07.679 make sure that we you know them, you know, to enable this type 576 01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:12.639 of research. But again, this type of research really done in a scientific 577 01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:17.960 way. Now, the flip side of this is is that I do also 578 01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:28.400 try to explain to my scientific colleagues how very important it is, and they're 579 01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:34.559 really working towards this, not just at my university, but scientists generally worldwide 580 01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:40.320 now have reached a point where they're really recognizing that they need to be engaging 581 01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:49.800 with the questions that the public has. The days of you know, scientists 582 01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:54.599 setting the entire research agenda and saying, oh, you know, this is 583 01:02:54.639 --> 01:02:58.519 what we're going to look at, and this is what you should care about 584 01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:07.920 and working with UM, working with the public only when they're uh, either 585 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:14.239 disseminating their result or when they want people to collect data. Those days are 586 01:03:14.320 --> 01:03:19.360 gone, UM, And and I'm glad to see that there's a new generation 587 01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:23.840 of scientists who really are wanting to UM, really are wanting to work with 588 01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:31.960 people, really are wanting to UM have a dialogue with the public UM. 589 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:38.679 And so there's there's a tremendous opportunity I think, uh in the probably you 590 01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:43.400 know, really in the next uh you know now for you know, at 591 01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:51.800 least the next decade to really see UM science and the public come together. 592 01:03:52.239 --> 01:03:54.480 You know, and again there's not one science, just like there's not one 593 01:03:54.519 --> 01:04:00.840 in public. Um. But uh, you know, I think this is 594 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:05.400 something that's just really really important. I mean, scientists want to be working 595 01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:12.559 on on questions that have relevance in the real world. I think the more 596 01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:15.239 we can understand each other. And I mean that probably goes for everything in 597 01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:19.599 our culture. We're we're really at a point now where there's just so much 598 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:29.400 I guess we might be best to just all that tribalism. That's something that 599 01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:36.239 I see, you know, having worked in having worked across these worlds, 600 01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:44.559 and with the engagement that I've had with the Bigfoot community in addition to the 601 01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:49.519 scientific community. I mean, you know, it's it's interesting how quickly people 602 01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:59.719 look for look for their differences with others instead of looking at their similarities. 603 01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:03.239 For example, I mean, even with this study, you know, I 604 01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:08.159 have a lot of people asking me questions, like, you know, assuming 605 01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:13.880 that you know, for example, oh, you're doing you're doing a scientific 606 01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:17.559 you know, you're doing a DNA study, so therefore, um, you 607 01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:24.800 must align with like, you know, certain ideas in the Bigfoot community about 608 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:30.599 flesh and blood versus woo or whatever. And it's like you know, which 609 01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:34.960 UM, you know, I think is interesting because I do have you know, 610 01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:41.079 I do recognize that there are people who UM and it's not most people, 611 01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:45.480 that there are people who tell some really bizarre accounts. I had a 612 01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:53.039 conversation just this week, UM with a big Foot eye witness who had some 613 01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:59.679 rather unusual elements to his story, you know, UM, and that's great. 614 01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.360 I mean, you know, I listen to that, and I think 615 01:06:02.360 --> 01:06:08.719 that that's I think that that's really interesting. UM. I don't know that 616 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:13.119 I can you know, I don't know that I can speak to UM what 617 01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:17.400 it is that folks are experiencing when they have the sort of UM. I 618 01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:23.679 guess you'd say those woo experiences. But UM, you know, but there's 619 01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:27.000 I see, you know, from the outside looking in, I see this 620 01:06:27.079 --> 01:06:30.960 disconnect in the Bigfoot community, and I think part of it is because people 621 01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:36.360 are very invested in their particular um, their particular ideas. Yeah, UM, 622 01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:40.679 I don't have any problem with somebody telling me, hey, this was 623 01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:45.760 my experience, and yeah, maybe my experience seems really unusual. UM. 624 01:06:46.199 --> 01:06:51.000 Where I where I find that UM people end up, you know, in 625 01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:58.880 these tribes, is when they get to really interpreting what they what they're and 626 01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:06.519 usually they're certain what their experiences mean. So you know, whether that's people 627 01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:13.559 who say, well, I saw a sasquatch and I know that it's an 628 01:07:13.599 --> 01:07:17.679 animal and not close to human at all. I mean, I don't know 629 01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:23.440 quite how you'd know that from looking at something, But you know there are 630 01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:27.639 people who have that, you know, very strong idea to people. You 631 01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:32.079 know, I mean people who are certain that sasquatch is an alien or whatever 632 01:07:32.119 --> 01:07:36.360 it. Maybe. You know, there's a lot of people with a lot 633 01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:43.360 of certainties about things. And I think unfortunately part of why, part of 634 01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:50.920 why that that exists is because there hasn't been scientific work done in this field, 635 01:07:50.920 --> 01:07:56.639 by and large, not too much, and so we really don't have 636 01:07:56.840 --> 01:08:03.320 the data to work with. We don't have of information about the sasquatch phenomenon 637 01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:14.639 such that we can determine what's going on here. And so that's what we 638 01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:20.520 need to be united and trying to fill in. Let's get some data and 639 01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:28.560 for me, you know, DNA is certainly where that you know where that 640 01:08:28.760 --> 01:08:33.520 can probably make the biggest difference. People have said for many, many years, 641 01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:36.119 oh, you know, you need a body, you need a body, 642 01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:41.760 and then science will take this seriously. But the reality is is that 643 01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:48.159 you don't need a body anymore for science to take the idea seriously, not 644 01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:54.880 if you have the DNA evidence. And in fact, the DNA evidence is 645 01:08:57.479 --> 01:09:04.720 actually superior because you can imagine that if somebody did you know, somebody did 646 01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:10.479 say, here's a body, I ran it over yesterday with my truck and 647 01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:14.560 they produce a body, what's the first question that people are going to ask, 648 01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:17.880 Well, what does the DNA say that it is. Yeah, that's 649 01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:23.720 the biggest question out there. I'd really i'd really like to see folks united 650 01:09:23.840 --> 01:09:29.279 in at least agreeing that that's a that's a good question that could that could 651 01:09:29.560 --> 01:09:32.840 help get us to a point, you know, a common point of you 652 01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:39.880 know, hey, let's we should all be excited to to find out to 653 01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:44.319 find out more about that. I mean, you have the people who are 654 01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:48.479 on the fence or in disbelief where something like this could prove that, hey, 655 01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:53.199 these things really are out there, and then the people who are convinced, 656 01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:58.479 uh due to having a siding or just whatever, this will answer the 657 01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:02.680 question of what they actually are. So yeah, I think it's definitely something 658 01:10:02.720 --> 01:10:10.880 that could get everybody on the same page in at least one aspect. Well, 659 01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:14.880 I would hope so, I would hope so. But again, I 660 01:10:14.880 --> 01:10:17.159 mean, I think if you look at our larger culture, you look at 661 01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:23.000 the politics, you look at the country at large, getting us together, 662 01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:28.319 it's kind of difficult. But I you know, that's but that's that's that's 663 01:10:28.319 --> 01:10:32.119 where I am. I'd like, I'm very curious, and i'd like I'd 664 01:10:32.119 --> 01:10:39.920 like to see anybody who is curious, um uh be along for the ride 665 01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:43.479 with me. Well, Darby, I know you've been filling under the weather. 666 01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:47.199 We've had problems connecting, but I'm so glad we were finally able to 667 01:10:47.239 --> 01:10:51.600 make it happen. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing this information 668 01:10:51.680 --> 01:10:56.600 and for all the work you're putting into this. I wish you the best 669 01:10:56.600 --> 01:11:00.439 of luck. Man. I you know I'm one of those people blue Oh. 670 01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:05.319 I want this to happen so bad and at least you've opened the door 671 01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:09.640 for that possibility. So thank you. You know. I think if there's 672 01:11:09.760 --> 01:11:15.680 anything else I can add, it would just be that at the end of 673 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:21.359 the day, this study is only going to be as good as the samples 674 01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:28.399 that we get, and so this really is. This really is a collaborative 675 01:11:28.439 --> 01:11:34.600 effort, and so I really hope that people who have these these quality, 676 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:45.199 interesting samples will make them available. This is the opportunity. If you've seen 677 01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:50.359 something you can't explain, send me an email at Bigfootcrossroad at gmail dot com. 678 01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:55.640 Check out bigfootcrossroads dot com for links to the social media, a contact 679 01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:59.760 form to reach me. Everything you need all in one place. And if 680 01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:02.560 you want to send a sample to Darby, I'll have that information for you 681 01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:08.199 as well. And until next time, I remember there's something in the woods.