1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,919 I am spearheading a DNA inquiry. What we actually are calling it is a 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:13,400 study of morphologically unusual samples. We are looking at biological samples that appear to 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,800 be unusual. Samples are being found, and I hear these from folks who 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,800 largely know what they're looking at. They have samples of hair, for example, 5 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:28,160 that don't seem to look like any known species. And in fact, 6 00:00:28,399 --> 00:00:33,359 some of these folks have really done some pretty rigorous analysis they've in terms of 7 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:39,880 looking at these things under a microscope. They have found that these specimens share 8 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:45,520 common features with one another, but again don't seem to match up with any 9 00:00:46,159 --> 00:01:30,000 known North American species. This is Bigfoot Crossroads. I'm Matt, and I've 10 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:36,280 got a very special guest with me on this episode. I am joined by 11 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:44,799 Darby Orcutt of North Carolina State University, and Darby is spearheading a new Bigfoot 12 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,599 DNA inquiry. I guess is that what you would call it, Darby? 13 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:57,079 Yes, indeed, I am spearheading a DNA inquiry. What we actually are 14 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:06,439 calling it is a study of alleged morphologically unusual samples. And what that means 15 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:13,599 is we are looking at We are looking at biological samples that appear to be 16 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:21,280 unusual. And in the case how this relates to bigfoot the bigfoot community is 17 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:30,680 that they're our claims that samples are being found, and I hear these from 18 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:38,840 folks who are who largely know what they're looking at, that they have samples 19 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:46,639 of hair, for example, that don't seem to look like any known species. 20 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,240 And in fact, some of these folks have really done some pretty rigorous 21 00:02:52,280 --> 00:03:00,439 analysis they've in terms of looking at these things under a microscope. They have 22 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:07,680 found that these specimens share common features with one another, but again don't seem 23 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:14,759 to match up with any known North American species. Well, that's an interesting 24 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:21,080 question, what is that? So we're looking at these unusual samples. Most 25 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:24,680 of the unusual samples that I presume will be looking at are alleged to be 26 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,919 or suspected to be sasquatch because these are the folks who are finding them. 27 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:38,719 These specimens are being found in conjunction with sighting reports and things like that. 28 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:46,680 So we are not per se looking for bigfoot. What we are doing is 29 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:53,960 that we are looking at We are looking at these unusual samples to determine what 30 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:01,680 they are. Now, certainly there is the possibility that hey, we could 31 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:09,599 discover a new species in North America. But that's just one of a whole 32 00:04:09,719 --> 00:04:15,279 range of possibilities. But what I can tell you is this two things. 33 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:21,560 One, these are things worth looking at because they appear to be unusual. 34 00:04:23,199 --> 00:04:30,199 There's something very there's something very interesting here to be found. Secondly, whatever 35 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:36,439 these samples are, they are something. So if somebody is saying, hey, 36 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,120 we have some evidence here, well, indeed, it's evidence we do. 37 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,199 We don't know at this stage what is evidence of, right, But 38 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,680 that's a really interesting question, and so that's what we're trying to determine. 39 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:57,120 I'm kind of familiar with the types of hair samples you're talking about. They've 40 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,480 been around for a while. I believe it was doctor or hen Or Ferrenbach 41 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:06,639 that first kind of brought these things to light. There's some very specific details 42 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:14,279 about the hairs themselves that don't seem to really match anything we know that's out 43 00:05:14,319 --> 00:05:20,839 there in the woods, at least in North America. And so basically you're 44 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:30,319 taking these type samples or whatever other biological samples there are coming from I guess 45 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:36,360 bigfoot investigators or whoever, and trying to figure out where these hairs are coming 46 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:44,000 from exactly, since they don't appear to be any known hair samples compared to 47 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:49,040 you know, things like deer and bare mountain lions and such. Is that 48 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,279 the gist of it. Yeah, that's the idea, of course. The 49 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:58,199 first thing that we'll do is we'll look at them. We'll look at the 50 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,720 hair or or whatever the whatever the sample is, We'll look at it microscopically 51 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:11,040 ourselves to uh see if we share in that assessment. Um. And then 52 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,360 uh, for those that aren't easily identifiable as a as a known species, 53 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,879 well we'll move on to genetic testing. Uh. And yeah, I've talked 54 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,680 about hair because that's the those are the majority of the samples that are being 55 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,120 offered to us thus far. And that I hear that that that that people 56 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:41,399 have, UM. But the study is absolutely open to any any biological samples. 57 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,000 Uh. Let me let me back up to one thing that you said, 58 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,399 because you mentioned doctor Henter Farhrenbach. And doctor Farrenbach uh, for for 59 00:06:51,439 --> 00:06:58,839 those who may not know the name, was very active in uh in looking 60 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:05,279 at particular really hair specimens, uh, microscopically back in the nineteen nineties and 61 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:10,959 the early two thousands. Um. And there are there is a lot of 62 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,680 uh sort of common knowledge or lore if you will, in the big Foot 63 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:23,920 community and especially around uh doctor Fehrenbach's hair analysis, because the idea is, 64 00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:28,120 and I hear this repeated a lot, and and so you're in good company 65 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:34,720 that that doctor Farrenbach had had noted some particular features that that that he felt 66 00:07:35,399 --> 00:07:42,439 distinguished sasquatch hair. Um. But that actually, I'll tell you the truth, 67 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,319 that actually is not true. UM. And I can say that with 68 00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:51,120 confidence because in preparing for the study over the last several years, one of 69 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:57,120 the things that I did so I actually tracked down doctor Farrenbach. Uh. 70 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:03,279 He is he retired uh over twenty years ago. UM, but he is, 71 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:07,480 he is still around and I was able to to track him down. 72 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:11,439 In fact, I spoke with him on the phone as recently as last week. 73 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:18,639 UM. And he tells me, actually that that that that that's not 74 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,160 true that he did. He isn't one who said these are features of sasquatch 75 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,560 hair um. And in his estimation he said there there are in terms of 76 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,600 looking at um. For example, one of the pieces one of the pieces 77 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,679 that people say is though they have different scaling patterns. UH. Doctor Fehrenbach 78 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:46,559 says he doesn't think that scaling patterns distinguish sasquatch hair from the hair of of 79 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,559 of human beings UM. And he has a number of reasons for that. 80 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:58,200 He's probably looked at more uh probably more hair of all species, let alone 81 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:07,039 more alleged squatch here than than anyone UM and UH in his estimation, you 82 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,159 know that that that idea that there are certain features that that that you can 83 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,799 count on is not established. But that's something that we want to test with 84 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:22,080 a study. And he's really excited to see what comes of this study because 85 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,679 if we do find that, you know, there are certain hairs to certain 86 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:33,720 features that UM relate genetically to whatever species again, whether it's an unknown species 87 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:41,039 of you know that that might be sasquatch, or whether it's an unknown scaling 88 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:48,120 pattern uh found in black bears or whatever it may be. UM, he's 89 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:54,320 really interested to see, uh what what comes to the study. I did 90 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,360 not know that that's some really interesting information because you know, like you said, 91 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,080 myself along with many other people have attributed that information to him for many 92 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:11,600 many years. Yeah, it's funny. He retired. He retired from academia 93 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:18,039 a long time ago, and he actually has been outside of the Bigfoot community 94 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:24,080 now for I believe well over a decade, and so he's not really connected 95 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,919 with folks. In fact, when I was first trying to track him down 96 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,559 and looking for leads on where he might be, I was told again and 97 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,080 again that everyone was certain that he was dead. So he thought that was 98 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:46,639 kind of funny because he's actually very much alive and and still sharp. So 99 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:52,320 is there a particular catalyst that kind of kicked this off? Now, why 100 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,159 did you choose to do this now? Anything behind it? Or is it 101 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,840 just something that you've been wanting to do for a while. Well, it's 102 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:07,080 actually something that I've been working on for a while. A major, uh, 103 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:13,480 interdisciplinary scientific research project at a major university doesn't happen overnight, right, 104 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:20,240 So um, but I'll tell you I can give you the the the nutshell 105 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:28,000 version of how I became interested in this um was that I was my my 106 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:35,000 my role at NC State University. I've been on faculty there for over twenty 107 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:41,000 years now, and my primary faculty appointment is as a librarian, but not 108 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,080 practicing librarianship in the way that most people think of not checking out books to 109 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:56,000 people, not checking out books to people at all. But my my, 110 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:03,840 my major role on the campus internally to the campus is to help in putting 111 00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:18,159 together and supporting interdisciplinary research teams, teams that include folks from multiple, multiple 112 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:26,480 disciplines, different fields of study to answer the sorts of questions that where it's 113 00:12:26,519 --> 00:12:35,039 not a question that can only be answered from one narrow perspective. And so 114 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:41,759 that's something that I've been doing for many, many years at NC State. 115 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,320 I love that work. It's it's it's really great because I get to work 116 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:52,440 with really smart colleagues in all different kinds of fields, and I do a 117 00:12:52,480 --> 00:13:00,279 lot of the work of interpreting between these fields, of making sure that the 118 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:07,960 research agendas of each of these these different researchers as being served as well as 119 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:16,240 that we're moving towards a goal together. And through one of these projects, 120 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:24,919 I actually got really interested in questions of how science draws its its boundaries, 121 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,679 why certain questions are, for lack of a better word, allowed in mainstream 122 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:39,320 science, and others are kind of shunned or stayed away from or considered fringe. 123 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:46,240 And I've been teaching from I've been teaching along the way as well, 124 00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:54,039 and teaching courses about how science works. How science works, not just in 125 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,320 the way that it says it works, like hey, you do this and 126 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,159 follow this method, but how science works in our culture, how it fits 127 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:09,600 in with economic systems, how it fits in with the media, and every 128 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:18,639 which way that you can imagine. And so I envisioned at that point teaching 129 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,600 a course, and I started doing this. I was teaching a course that 130 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:28,879 I'm still teaching today. It's now a permanent course sidency state. But the 131 00:14:28,919 --> 00:14:35,559 course is about science and these kind of fringe areas or these fields of study 132 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:43,879 that are on the edge or even considered outside of mainstream science. And that 133 00:14:43,039 --> 00:14:50,919 was how I came to I came to the Sasquatch because I thought this was 134 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:56,840 an excellent example of a field where you would think, on the one hand, 135 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,440 that there would be kind a normal scientific approach, if you will, 136 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:11,960 to this question of you know, of of Bigfoot. But the picture in 137 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,120 the real world is much much more complex, of course, very muddy, 138 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:24,720 very muddy, indeed, very much so. And so uh, the Sasquatch 139 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:31,679 became a wonderful example to think about how the study of something could be in 140 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:39,159 or out in scientific circles or how those lines are drawn. And so that 141 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:46,039 was how I came to looking at these questions. And in fact, one 142 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,840 of the one of the folks in the the Bigfoot community, if you will, 143 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:56,919 that I got to know, fortunately never met in person, but spent 144 00:15:58,039 --> 00:16:03,120 a lot of time on the phone with and really enjoyed um was doctor John 145 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:12,519 Bendernagle. And John was a PhD and wildlife biologist, and he it was 146 00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:18,559 really interesting because he wrote a book, his second book was called The Discovery 147 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:26,480 of the Sasquatchum, and he was grappling with this question of he had all 148 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:36,360 this what he considered good evidence to show that this that that Sasquatch question was 149 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:41,960 a really interesting question, and yet he felt stymied in in being able to 150 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:47,639 present this evidence to the scientific community. And so that led him to in 151 00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:55,159 that book really exploring the cultural aspects of science that we're leading to the question 152 00:16:55,879 --> 00:17:00,279 being brushed aside, if you will, or ignored. On the flip side. 153 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:03,799 Here, I was coming from a place where I was wanting to teach, 154 00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:11,200 and I was teaching about the cultural influence, the cultural influence on science 155 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:17,359 and so forth in that relationship, and then came to the question of sasquatch 156 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,200 as an example of that. So we used to laugh that we were sort 157 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,519 of ended up coming kind of a somewhat of the same place, but from 158 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:33,680 completely different directions. It was really something, uh, And so the so 159 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:41,039 one of the things that I really had been thinking about for for for quite 160 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:45,319 a few years was was what One of the things that I really tried to 161 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:52,880 try to do in the course is to have my students doing their own work 162 00:17:52,960 --> 00:18:03,400 embodying how to study whatever strange topic. So they had some firsthand experience with 163 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:07,720 trying to take a scientific approach to looking at something that you know, a 164 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:12,359 lot of people might consider outside of science. So how do you do that? 165 00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:17,160 So I wanted to do that for myself, of course, and so 166 00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:22,440 I do that. I do. Actually, I'm involved with leading some research 167 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,519 and some a couple of strange areas, and sasquatch certainly being one of those. 168 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:33,000 And so when I started to look to say, you know, how 169 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:42,000 could I make a difference in our scientific understanding of the sasquatch question, I 170 00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:47,640 said, well, I mean, in some ways I'm very well suited to 171 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:55,960 this based on my career. I'm good at putting together teams that can tackle 172 00:18:56,079 --> 00:19:03,160 tough questions, and certainly the question of what accounts for the sasquatch phenomenon has 173 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:10,720 uh uh continued to be a really tough question. UM, And so I 174 00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:14,519 thought, you know, this is something that I can do. But it 175 00:19:14,599 --> 00:19:18,720 took me. It took me several years uh to really gather the right team 176 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:26,000 uh to uh to to put this together. And I also recognized in that 177 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:34,240 time that, uh, there have been a number of um, there's been 178 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:37,839 a let's put it this way, there's been an interesting relationship, but not 179 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:52,119 always a pleasant relationship between uh uh bigfoot investigators and uh folks who have been 180 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:59,680 attempting to uh do some sort of of DNA work in this area. Um, 181 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,000 They're been very few who have really attempted to to uh even look at 182 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:14,640 um, look at specimens genetic you know, genetically, and then beyond that, 183 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:23,960 there really hasn't been ah, a serious full academic study of this. 184 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,079 There've been some folks who looked at some things, you know, given their 185 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:37,880 opinions, done you know, individual analyzes, but in terms of in terms 186 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:44,480 of academic studies, really the only one that had happened happened previously was was 187 00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:51,960 doctor psych study, but that was so small. I think in the final 188 00:20:52,000 --> 00:21:00,559 publication, Uh, I think he had analyzed somewhere between a half and a 189 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,720 dozen samples from North America, which is of course nothing in the grand scheme 190 00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:14,799 of things. How many samples are you hoping to analyze? Well, UM, 191 00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:19,559 we'll see. UM. At this point, you know, certainly we 192 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:26,039 can't. We can't analyze more samples than are offered to us. And so 193 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:36,480 that's where I'm really hopeful that folks who have interesting samples will will step up. 194 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,440 UM. I know I've shared with you the online intake survey, and 195 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:45,400 so I hope you'll please put that in your show notes. Yeah, for 196 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:52,440 sure, for sure. UH. That's that's the first step is to fill 197 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,599 out that form, and it asks folks for information about what you have, 198 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,839 why you think it's interesting, UM, you know where when you found it, 199 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:10,720 some questions about the collection and the storage of that. UM. This 200 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:18,799 this form is really to help us in UM prioritizing which samples we're going to 201 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:26,480 begin with in the order that we'll move through them in UH. And the 202 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:32,920 sooner that folks can fill that out certainly the better, UM. Because if 203 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,480 you have a sample in hand now it's never going to get fresher than it 204 00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:42,519 is right now, and we'll just we'll see. We haven't set you know, 205 00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:45,440 folks have asked me. It's it's funny. In fact, the very 206 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:49,400 day that that that we launched this, people were asking me, well, 207 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,920 how long are you going to be running this for? I'm like, well, 208 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,759 we just launched. I mean, we haven't said a date. I 209 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,599 mean, I get it. Sometimes, you know people, sometimes scientists do 210 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,839 a limited study and they say we'll take samples for a month or whatever. 211 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:10,440 We're not doing that. This is this is open ended because we really want 212 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:17,039 to get the best and the most interesting samples that there are. Um As 213 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:22,759 you might expect, we're not going to run this project forever, but uh, 214 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,279 you know, we haven't. We're not worrying about setting an end date 215 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:32,039 at this stage in the game. We're more interested with getting good quality, 216 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:37,640 interesting samples to look at. So I can't give you a number as to 217 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:45,960 how many, uh we'll end up looking at. It really depends on again 218 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:53,039 how many how many good, potentially interesting samples are offered to us, because 219 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:57,319 that's uh, that's going to be what what what really drives this and keeps 220 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:04,960 us going so you're with North Carolina State? Yes, who all is involved 221 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,400 in this project? I mean you don't have to give people's specific names, 222 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,359 but it is an academic project. So is it just is it North Carolina 223 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,799 State sponsored for lack of better term, or are there other universities involved? 224 00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:25,200 Is this just all your baby? Well, I am spearheading this, but 225 00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:30,799 no, it is not just me. As I told you about my background, 226 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,880 my expertise is in bringing together the right people to really to really look 227 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:42,240 at things. So what I have is we have a core team, and 228 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:56,200 the core team led by myself but also includes two PhD's researchers in genetics and 229 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:07,079 genomics, one of whom especially has tremendous expertise in wildlife forensics. Um and 230 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:17,000 uh my our fourth faculty collaborator is a microscopist, meaning somebody who's an expert 231 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:22,440 at looking at things under the microscope. Um and uh and just I mean 232 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:30,880 has I won't even I could fan boy about his microscope because he's he's got 233 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:37,200 he's got um absolutely maybe the best equipment in the in in North America right 234 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:42,319 now. I mean I gotta say for doing like microscopiece. So uh now, 235 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:49,079 just amazing, amazing people. UH. And then UH we also have 236 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:57,200 UH PhD students in in in genetics as well. In each of my colleagues 237 00:25:57,319 --> 00:26:03,680 labs with two lab they've run two different labs UM, and we have PhD 238 00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:08,440 students in those labs who are also involved and really excited to be a part 239 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:17,480 of it. In addition to that, UM I actually have on deck a 240 00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:25,880 whole host of folks both from NC State and from other universities. So the 241 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,440 core team is all NC State faculty UM, but I have on deck a 242 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:37,039 number of people who are ready to step in and join on the project if 243 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:47,559 and when we receive specimens that are interesting, specimens that are in their areas 244 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:57,559 of expertise. And so for example, just to give one example, you've 245 00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:03,720 you've you've probably seen at some point you saw the TV show Bones. I'm 246 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,640 familiar with it. Yeah, I have our real life bones. UH. 247 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:18,200 She's she's an anthropolos. She's an anthropologist focused on uh osteology. So if 248 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,720 we get if we get bones, if we get teeth, she is ready 249 00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:30,960 to hop in there and and uh and work on that and is just absolutely 250 00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:38,359 absolutely amazing scholar and researcher. UM. I have again, a whole list 251 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:45,200 of folks in different areas, depending on what we might run into or what 252 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:49,960 gets offered to us. Uh. These these people, however, some of 253 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:56,400 them are staying in the closet until they actually have something they can contribute to 254 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:03,640 some of these additional folks. UM and yeah, but they're they're all very 255 00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:07,720 very excited. So but it would depend on it would depend you'll, like 256 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,319 I say, it depends on what we receive. Um. I know that 257 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:19,400 we're I know that we have offers of of hair already, we've had offers 258 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:29,799 of um uh uh skin surface lipids, which are these um these are folks 259 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:40,480 are finding uh these large handprints on the glass of like vehicles or windows, 260 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:47,599 uh that look like look like large handprints. Uh. And so the idea 261 00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:51,720 I think that that that they have is that this is a you know, 262 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:56,079 this is a sasquatch handprint, and it leaves behind a kind of a white 263 00:28:56,119 --> 00:29:04,400 residue, a really greasy to do, which actually, uh is parallel to 264 00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:11,400 what goulas we'll leave. So I've I've talked with zookeepers who who keep gorillas, 265 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,559 and they have to get in there and really really scrub to get these 266 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:22,319 handprints off of the enclosures. UM. So that's a material that's uh, 267 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:30,160 that's worth looking at. This is probably um lipids or it's basically a secretion 268 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,000 from the hand We have them ourselves. We have we have we have skin 269 00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:41,319 surface lipids on our hands. Uh. It's just that ours aren't that pronounced 270 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,960 at all. Right, UM, but uh, you know, certain other 271 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:52,240 species of apes do have you know, you know, really different uh composition, 272 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,920 and you know, like say, gorillas leave handprints their enclosures in zoos. 273 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,039 So it's an interesting question again. I mean, this is this is 274 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,319 just fascinating stuff to look at. UM. Now beyond that, I would 275 00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:14,519 love it if we're offered other types of things, if folks, uh, 276 00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:19,480 if folks end up offering us bone, teeth, blood, you know whatever. 277 00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:26,240 In fact, it's even an option to uh to uh uh offer to 278 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,279 submit an entire body. Uh. I mean yeah, for that person that's 279 00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:36,680 been sitting on one this whole time, now's your opportunity to just drag her 280 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,240 on in. It is. And I mean the point being that, um, 281 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,920 you know, we we are hanging out the shingle, uh, that 282 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:52,680 we would like to look at these unusual samples, and we didn't want to. 283 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,240 Um, you know, it's it's funny. You know, my colleagues 284 00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:00,720 at first, you know, they led a little bit when because I wrote 285 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:07,000 the initial draft of the intake form and I had that on their entire body, 286 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,079 and my colleagues you know, chuckled a little bit and they said, 287 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:17,519 you know, actually that is so smart because uh, you know, going 288 00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:22,480 through and putting together a big study like this. UM. I think the 289 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:27,119 other thing that that the the uh, the unacknowledged work often that people don't 290 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:33,039 recognize is that with the university, there's a lot of paperwork. UM. 291 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,240 So I had to go through uh call the institutional Review board process, which 292 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:45,160 is essentially an ethics review uh in large part to make sure that we are 293 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:51,440 treating people, uh, we are treating people with respect and ethically and uh 294 00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:56,720 so and that there are there are uh their security in place. So for 295 00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:05,559 example, if folks would like to offer h offer um samples to the project, 296 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:10,039 they can do so. Uh you know, they can do so with 297 00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:15,559 full credit, like hey, where we'll say, hey, this was a 298 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:20,759 sample found by this person who wants everybody to know that they found it. 299 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:25,920 Or you can choose, you know, or you can choose, on the 300 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,119 other extreme, to be completely anonymous. In other words, I want to 301 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:35,960 submit this sample, I want to get results from you, but I don't 302 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,559 want you to ever tell anybody that I was involved. And that's absolutely fine, 303 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,279 because that's where some people are. Everybody who contributes a sample that we 304 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:53,559 UH, that we ask them to submit and analyze, will receive results for 305 00:32:53,680 --> 00:33:04,200 their sample. UM and UH. And again this is because because this is 306 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:10,559 an established study, there are protocols in place again to keep keep data private. 307 00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:15,920 Needs to be kept private for example, too, whether you choose to 308 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,960 be identified or not. UM. We are not going to be disclosing any 309 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:29,319 specific locations where samples were found. We're going to ask for that information, 310 00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:35,119 but we're not going to we're not going to share that beyond the core research 311 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,640 team. We certainly don't want to be in a position of you know, 312 00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:45,359 sending uh, you know, sending folks to somebody's backyard, because the serious 313 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,799 are we so we're absolutely not doing that. You know, you know, 314 00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:57,480 bigfooters are very distrusting, a lot of them borderline paranoid, if not all 315 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:05,079 the way across the border. And whenever it comes to the Bigfoot communities relationship, 316 00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:10,559 with the scientific community. You know, there's a lot of doubt and 317 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:16,000 a lot of distrust, and I'm probably I'm pretty certain that there's some people 318 00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:21,639 listening right now. Whenever this episode comes out, they're just going to be 319 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:25,480 like, why should I trust this guy who They're gonna even if they find 320 00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:30,679 something, they're just going to cover it up. Is there any words that 321 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:36,360 you can give to maybe sway people's trust a little bit, to let them 322 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,320 know that this is on the up and up and that nothing is going to 323 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:44,559 be covered up or you know what I mean. I'm sure you've heard of 324 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:49,920 that before in the bigfoot world. Oh absolutely no. And I understand and 325 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,199 you know, and I guess you know, part of it is warranted based 326 00:34:54,239 --> 00:35:00,800 on some of what's happened in the past, and that is really that's really 327 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:09,239 troubling to me. Um I what's what's so difficult with this is that there 328 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:15,920 have been and I know because I've talked to folks, there have been some 329 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:23,920 some individual scientists who, while very well meaning, have taken samples and lost 330 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:31,000 them or whatever. It happens a lot for some reason. Well I think 331 00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:36,400 one of the reasons that what I will say that hopefully we'll put people at 332 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:42,000 ease. Is that part of why that has happened in the past is because 333 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:52,280 by and large, again, there there hasn't been a formal study that these 334 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,599 samples have been going into. Now they I can't really speak to the psych 335 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,800 study because that was a formal study, but that was in conjunction with a 336 00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:10,599 media production. Um. This study is not so. UM. I'm sure 337 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:15,760 that I know already that there will be some media coverage of it, but 338 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,239 it is not. This is not for media production. I can tell you 339 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,280 that right now. UM. This is uh really stimming from my own curiosity. 340 00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:31,840 UM. Because again the more I've the more I've looked at the more 341 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,360 I've looked at this area, the more I've found things to be curious about. 342 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:43,760 UM. And it is uh, it is really difficult. I mean, 343 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:51,440 how do you satisfy this curiosity when there's not data to do so with? 344 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:58,599 Right? Um, we don't have results of DNA studies. Again, 345 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:07,039 the individu usual academics who may have looked at samples in the past have given 346 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:16,159 their opinions on these things, and their opinions in many cases are expert opinions, 347 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:24,199 but they haven't necessarily released They haven't in any case released their data that 348 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:30,159 is required for peer review to actually take place right now. Again, in 349 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:37,679 fairness, none of them, other than psychs, no academic has has really 350 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,760 it's really set out to do a study. And I think that's that's the 351 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,920 interesting thing. I mean, uh, several years ago, and part of 352 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:58,320 my impetus for this was because a lot of sasquatch investigators were telling me, 353 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,639 oh, I've found this sample, and I think it's interesting. What lab 354 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,079 should I send it to? What commercial lab can I pay to analyze this 355 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:10,320 for me? And I really looked into that question, and one of the 356 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:21,480 things that I found was that I wasn't convinced. Let's put it this way, 357 00:38:21,559 --> 00:38:25,760 I wasn't convinced that any lab, any commercial lab, was really equipped 358 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:36,880 to to be able to properly judge if something truly were an unknown species. 359 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:45,719 And beyond that, based on particularly a couple of lab reports that were shared 360 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:53,960 with me, where investigators had sent samples to labs, I wasn't convinced that 361 00:38:54,039 --> 00:39:01,639 the labs were really doing their due diligence and properly even identifying these samples. 362 00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:07,280 And that was troubling to me, and I thought, well, surely there 363 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:13,719 can be better, and so I really I set out to try to make 364 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,519 it better. So that's how we got to hear. I had folks, 365 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:23,840 uh several years ago who had samples and said, let me send you this, 366 00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:27,760 let me send you this that, so that your folks can take a 367 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,199 look at it. And I was saying, no, wait, I don't 368 00:39:30,199 --> 00:39:36,719 want to take anything until I have a formal study, until I have this 369 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:43,880 process set up, until you know, until this is really truly running. 370 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:50,079 And now we're at that point finally, um so now I can say to 371 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,239 folks, look, it's time. It's time to offer your samples for the 372 00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:04,719 study. You will get results. I think for some folks they may or 373 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,519 may not be you know, the individual results that they may want to see, 374 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:15,920 but they will be the results of what their samples are. And I'm 375 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:22,559 really curious to see what we find. I'm really curious with these hairs, 376 00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:30,400 for example, that seem to share these common features and don't look like known 377 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:37,119 species. What are those That's a really interesting question. So I just this 378 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:44,800 is finally, I think the chance to to be able to get some data 379 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:57,039 in order to in order to help to determine what might be going on let 380 00:40:57,079 --> 00:41:00,840 me ask you a couple of things that I hear brought up repeatedly in the 381 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:07,880 bigfoot community. It's something that I've questioned myself. However, most of us 382 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:14,480 out there who have an interest in this subject are not scientists. We don't 383 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:19,920 really know how genetics work. We don't know how DNA works. We just 384 00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:23,039 go by the articles that we read and you know, the television shows we 385 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:30,480 watch. One of those things is that several different people over the years have 386 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:38,519 reported that they've gotten results back that said human contamination, and that posed the 387 00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:46,000 question, what if bigfoot is a type of human genetically? Yes, is 388 00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:51,360 this something that could be determined or would it just be assumed that it was 389 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:58,440 contaminated? Great question, and I'm glad you asked that, because that is 390 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:06,519 a question that is going to remain unresolved until it's investigated. And yes, 391 00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:15,280 that is absolutely something that we will be investigating. Uh. Yeah, you 392 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:23,159 know again, in some cases, I think certainly human contamination is a factor 393 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:34,639 and maybe a factor in and so certainly you know it would be you don't 394 00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:37,960 want to assume that like, oh, if it said human contamination, maybe 395 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:44,119 it wasn't. Maybe it wasn't, but maybe it was as well. But 396 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,400 yeah, we definitely need to look at that. And so there are a 397 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,159 couple of things about that. One. Because of the expertise of my colleagues, 398 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:01,679 I'm less concerned with I'm really not I'm not concerned at all, honestly 399 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:07,599 with not being able to recognize when there's you know, when there's human contamination. 400 00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:15,280 But also because that question has been raised, because that question is on 401 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:21,199 our radar, that is something that we're We're going to take those samples to 402 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:29,159 the next step in order to determine, Hey, is this human contamination coming 403 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:37,280 from humans who are collecting this or you know, as you say, is 404 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:45,199 there something more to this? We certainly are well aware of the possibility that 405 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:54,000 if there is a sasquatch species out there, that that species could be very 406 00:43:54,239 --> 00:44:02,840 very close to Homo sapiens. In fact, quite frankly, as I set 407 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:10,960 out the parameters of this study, UM, we are even including the possibility 408 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:19,320 in our thinking that there could be that SA sasquatch, if you will, 409 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:28,880 could be a population of Homo sapiens, in other words, a type of 410 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:36,719 person. Um even you know, if that is the case, Um, 411 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:44,559 if the if the DNA samples are robust enough and you know, not not 412 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:52,119 terribly degraded, we will be able to determine whether that is a possibility. 413 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,639 Uh So, absolutely, I think it's it's a you know, I think 414 00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:01,880 that it is a really good thing to me make sure that we're asking those 415 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:07,920 questions. We are very open and we have designed this study to be open 416 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:15,679 to the full range of possibility of what we might be looking at, because 417 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:24,280 it would I mean again if if if Sasquatch is an extant species, and 418 00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:31,920 again it might be very very close to human. So we don't want to 419 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,880 assume, we don't want to assume that, oh, if we get close 420 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,239 enough to human, we can just stop looking right now. We need to 421 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,880 ask that question or else is going to continue to be an open question. 422 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,119 The other part to that is a lot of people talk about, well, 423 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:59,079 these DNA studies all look for results of known species, and since there's no 424 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,039 uh bigfoot DNA on file to compare it to, it just comes back as 425 00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:09,000 contaminator or whatever through you know, throughout the results. Basically, so are 426 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:15,960 you, guys, I assume going to compare uh sample results. Let's just 427 00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:21,679 say that you get several different samples that are good enough to actually be tested 428 00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:27,039 genetically. Are you going to compare those results and see if they match well? 429 00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:34,920 What we'll be doing is we'll be comparing those results to UH databases of 430 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:44,880 of of species and populations uh in order to in order to determine what these 431 00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:52,280 what these samples are. UM. It's actually a common misconception that without having 432 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:59,559 a reference species, you can't identify a new species. That's actually wrong that 433 00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:07,960 um. Uh. We we have had plenty of species um that have been 434 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:15,920 already identified in that manner. And the reason being is is that all life 435 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:22,599 on Earth, all life on Earth has DNA, and all life on Earth 436 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:34,519 UH shares uh commonalities in that DNA so UM. So In other words, 437 00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:42,400 um, all all living species on this planet, from plants to humans. 438 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:50,559 Okay, are you know share some DNA? UM? You share something like 439 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:57,719 uh forty percent of of your DNA with with a heat alettus. You share 440 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:07,079 a lot more of your DNA uh with a chimpanzee. Okay um uh. 441 00:48:07,119 --> 00:48:15,119 And and again as as you know, as the as the evolutionary tree branches 442 00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:22,880 off U, there are different places where different things fit. So any any 443 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:30,239 sample okay is uh, provided that you know, provided the DNA isn't so 444 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:36,239 degraded that you can't test it. But any sample that you have is going 445 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,639 to fit somewhere on that tree of life. If you've got a sample of 446 00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:45,719 you would notice this through microscopy. But if you had a sample of a 447 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:52,559 of a a small thread of wood for example, well, okay, you 448 00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:59,119 could identify that as a tree and you could identify the species. Um So 449 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,000 whatever sample you have is going to fit in there somewhere. Now, it 450 00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:09,119 would be possible, say, let's say that some of the common ideas of 451 00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:15,000 what sasquatch might be. Let's say one of those happens to be correct. 452 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:29,119 Okay, Then finding samples of this previously unknown species would very clearly situate it 453 00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:37,000 somewhere. It might be very very close to human, it might be closer 454 00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:46,519 to chimpanzee, it might be a descendant of some people suggestive gibbons. Wherever 455 00:49:46,599 --> 00:49:53,519 it is, though, it's going to fit squarely somewhere. So that's what's 456 00:49:53,559 --> 00:50:00,320 interesting is if you find, if you find, if you find DNA that 457 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:08,159 that is a direct match for say a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, 458 00:50:08,639 --> 00:50:15,480 well then you know exactly where, you know exactly where that species diverged on 459 00:50:15,639 --> 00:50:24,719 the on the evolutionary tree, and uh, you would probably suspect if we 460 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:36,239 found something like that that well that probably is what's fitting sasquatch reports, or 461 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,880 at least many sasquatch reports, right, I mean, or if a hair 462 00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:45,840 was found in conjunction with a sighting and it you know again it's it's uh, 463 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,119 it's it seems to be share a common descend it with humans and chimpanzees. 464 00:50:50,199 --> 00:50:55,519 Well, boom, there it is. That's that's probably it. Yeah, 465 00:50:54,400 --> 00:51:00,599 example of that magnitude comes from anywhere in North America. You've got something 466 00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:06,599 on your hands. Yeah, exactly. Now again I mean, uh, 467 00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:10,960 you know again, I mean from a technical standpoint, Um, do you 468 00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:15,639 know that that is the sample? You know, that sample is like you 469 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:21,000 know, quote unquote sasquatch. You know, well maybe not, but there's 470 00:51:21,079 --> 00:51:31,119 probably not multiple species of unknown primates wandering around the same woods. Um, 471 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,360 but you know, of course, you know, there is always you know, 472 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,480 theoretically that possibility. There are some people that make a very nice living 473 00:51:38,519 --> 00:51:45,239 off of that idea. Actually, but you know, but that's where you 474 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,199 know, obviously, with such a finding, eventually, uh, you know, 475 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,119 then the next step would be to try to document a living species, 476 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:59,440 uh in the wild. Um, but you would have done you know, 477 00:51:59,519 --> 00:52:06,920 the the DNA study alone would have done the work of establishing establishing the existence 478 00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:10,280 of a new species. If that's what this proves to be. Well, 479 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:17,880 let's just say you win the lottery, okay, and uh you get amazing 480 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,320 results that have never been seen before. You said if I hit the lottery. 481 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,719 I thought you meant if. At first, I thought you meant what 482 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:30,559 if I actually hit the lottery. Now let me put people at ease. 483 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,360 I hit the lottery. If I hit the lot No, no, no, 484 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,199 I did not at all. If I hit the lottery, it's a 485 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:45,599 study full time for me because because I'm so curious about this, I really 486 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:52,440 am. Uh uh And so uh yeah, it's not if I if I 487 00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:54,519 hit the lottery, I'm not. I'm not checking out. If anything, 488 00:52:54,679 --> 00:53:00,280 I'm I'm checking it all the more. Well, I meant that I was 489 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:07,800 just meaning the genetic watery. Let's just say that you found novel DNA. 490 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:13,239 Okay. Wouldn't that be an amazing result? I mean, hey, I'd 491 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,400 be happy. But then what happens after that? Well, that's a great 492 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,679 question. But let's say I mean I think, I think what happens after 493 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:30,400 that is really UM making sure you know, is establishing the species uh in 494 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:35,760 the wild, uh, documenting Uh yes that you know, Yes, yes, 495 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,039 that's really out there. I mean again, the DNA alone will be 496 00:53:39,159 --> 00:53:46,320 enough to convince ninety nine percent of scientists that, yes, indeed, this 497 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:53,119 this species exists. If that's the finding, um, the uh as long 498 00:53:53,159 --> 00:53:59,440 as we have you know, a long as we have you know, even 499 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:06,840 even just several matching samples from different locales, um, you know, I 500 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:13,239 think that that's enough to overwhelmingly convince the scientific community that, uh, there 501 00:54:13,519 --> 00:54:17,559 the species is there. It will tell us an awful lot about the species, 502 00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:22,840 at least genetically, but it will leave a lot of questions, UM, 503 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:31,360 because it will not It will not answer for us, um exactly um 504 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:37,400 exactly what the species looks like. It won't answer how the species behaves. 505 00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:44,159 It won't answer, uh exactly where does it live? Uh? How many 506 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,679 are there? Uh you know? And I think you know, those are 507 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:53,840 all questions that really would require UM field research. But the field research would 508 00:54:53,880 --> 00:55:05,159 be UM greatly enabled by the genetic information UM. And so yeah, so 509 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,559 I mean that would be the next step. UM I'm I'm already uh, 510 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:14,400 I'm already resigned to the fact that if that's, if that happens to be 511 00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:21,039 a finding from this study, certainly my life changes, UM, because that 512 00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:27,119 that that that that would be a you know, absolutely a full time commitment 513 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,880 to um uh to that type of study. UM. And I think too 514 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:37,000 that there's a lot there are a lot of questions uh for me that I've 515 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:42,400 thought about just a little bit about, you know, how to how to 516 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:49,760 make sure that a new species uh of any kind, but particularly if if 517 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:55,599 if it is indeed a new primate species, UM, how that how we 518 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:06,119 make sure that that that uh information UM gets out in a an ethical way, 519 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:15,519 in a way that won't harm the species UH. And so that those 520 00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:20,559 those would be my real concerns from that point, I think it would be 521 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,320 I think it would be absolutely fascinating, UM. I certainly, I certainly 522 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:31,679 think it would probably capture the imagination of a lot of people to learn that 523 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:37,639 there was something like that out there in North America. And I think people, 524 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:44,239 um even more people would be curious about, uh be curious about that 525 00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:51,800 is your project equipped to handle environmental DNA? We are at this point, 526 00:56:52,199 --> 00:56:55,360 UM, we we are equipped in the sense that, yes, we have 527 00:56:57,039 --> 00:57:04,119 the expertise to work with DNA, but at this stage that is not something 528 00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:10,079 that we are actively looking to work with. And the reason for that is 529 00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:19,960 is that well, I mean, the reason is that biological samples are a 530 00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:30,679 much lower hanging fruit for for identifying species. DNA is a very tedious, 531 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:38,800 very expensive, and in the case of looking for potentially unknown species, really 532 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:45,119 a crapshoot in terms of being able to find what you're looking for. The 533 00:57:45,199 --> 00:57:52,079 reality is is that if we, if if there were an unknown species of 534 00:57:52,159 --> 00:57:58,960 whatever, even if it were just a different type of bear that we found 535 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:06,400 out in the woods, you know, finding it through a study of actual 536 00:58:06,559 --> 00:58:15,199 samples, hair, bone, whatever, would then allow us to create primers 537 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:22,280 so that DNA work could be done far, far, faster, farm more 538 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:28,599 efficiently. I want to kind of finish off here with a question going back 539 00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:37,480 to the distrust, you know and everything between the bigfoot community and the scientific 540 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:43,000 community. Do you have any ideas on being able to like bridge that gap? 541 00:58:43,239 --> 00:58:49,079 I mean, whenever it comes to unexplained phenomenon in general. You know, 542 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,800 this seems to be your wheelhouse. How science can approach those topics and 543 00:58:53,880 --> 00:59:00,679 everything. Yeah, how do we get the citizens scientists, you know, 544 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:05,880 the layman researcher out there on the same page as the scientists and being able 545 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:13,000 to present findings or get that interest to have the scientific community take a serious 546 00:59:13,039 --> 00:59:15,960 look at this sort of thing. Yeah, well, you know, it's 547 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,800 a it's a process, and I think a lot of it, you know, 548 00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:23,679 a lot of that process comes through trying to trying to understand one another. 549 00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:30,599 I think we're at a point where in our in our culture at large, 550 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:40,320 where science has science has become part of the political football, and I 551 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:47,159 think that's really really unfortunate. Um. I think that people, um, 552 00:59:47,519 --> 00:59:58,000 in the general public oftentimes don't understand that there is no like capital s science 553 00:59:58,119 --> 01:00:00,480 if you will, U. And in fact, a lot of things that 554 01:00:00,559 --> 01:00:07,039 you hear that science says this, and science says that is not actually coming 555 01:00:07,199 --> 01:00:14,000 from science, scientists or the scientific community, UM, but is really coming 556 01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:24,360 from uh, just other ordinary citizens who are are trying to align themselves in 557 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:31,239 a certain way. You know. It's interesting because you know, folks ask 558 01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:37,239 me, you know, aren't scientists you know, really prejudiced against this question 559 01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:43,159 and everything? And I'm like, well, no, not my experience. 560 01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,159 I mean I certainly know, you know, I certainly know a few scientists 561 01:00:47,159 --> 01:00:50,480 who think, oh, you know this, you know, they just roll 562 01:00:50,599 --> 01:00:53,840 their eyes at the idea of bigfoot. And I don't want to suggest that 563 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:58,480 there are lots of scientists out there who are like, you know, spending 564 01:00:58,519 --> 01:01:01,440 a lot of time thinking about because there certainly aren't. Um. But I 565 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:08,440 will say that there are a lot of scientists who recognize that this is an 566 01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:15,119 area that really just hasn't been explored. UM. I have some, uh, 567 01:01:15,199 --> 01:01:22,920 I will say, internationally renowned friends and colleagues who are scientists who privately 568 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:27,280 will say to me, I'm really excited to see what comes of your study's 569 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:31,239 really excited to find out what's going on here. Um. But they don't 570 01:01:31,239 --> 01:01:37,599 say that publicly, um uh, because you know, there's you know, 571 01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:43,800 there's a larger culture that's uh yeah, well, you know, makes them 572 01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:50,360 makes them be a little circumspect about how hardly they support that. But but 573 01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:55,360 you know, privately, I've had tremendous support from scientific colleagues, um, 574 01:01:55,679 --> 01:02:00,639 and you know, in tremendous support from the university to you know, to 575 01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:07,679 make sure that we you know them, you know, to enable this type 576 01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:12,639 of research. But again, this type of research really done in a scientific 577 01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:17,960 way. Now, the flip side of this is is that I do also 578 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:28,400 try to explain to my scientific colleagues how very important it is, and they're 579 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:34,559 really working towards this, not just at my university, but scientists generally worldwide 580 01:02:34,599 --> 01:02:40,320 now have reached a point where they're really recognizing that they need to be engaging 581 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:49,800 with the questions that the public has. The days of you know, scientists 582 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:54,599 setting the entire research agenda and saying, oh, you know, this is 583 01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:58,519 what we're going to look at, and this is what you should care about 584 01:02:58,679 --> 01:03:07,920 and working with UM, working with the public only when they're uh, either 585 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:14,239 disseminating their result or when they want people to collect data. Those days are 586 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:19,360 gone, UM, And and I'm glad to see that there's a new generation 587 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:23,840 of scientists who really are wanting to UM, really are wanting to work with 588 01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:31,960 people, really are wanting to UM have a dialogue with the public UM. 589 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:38,679 And so there's there's a tremendous opportunity I think, uh in the probably you 590 01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:43,400 know, really in the next uh you know now for you know, at 591 01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:51,800 least the next decade to really see UM science and the public come together. 592 01:03:52,239 --> 01:03:54,480 You know, and again there's not one science, just like there's not one 593 01:03:54,519 --> 01:04:00,840 in public. Um. But uh, you know, I think this is 594 01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:05,400 something that's just really really important. I mean, scientists want to be working 595 01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:12,559 on on questions that have relevance in the real world. I think the more 596 01:04:12,599 --> 01:04:15,239 we can understand each other. And I mean that probably goes for everything in 597 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,599 our culture. We're we're really at a point now where there's just so much 598 01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:29,400 I guess we might be best to just all that tribalism. That's something that 599 01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:36,239 I see, you know, having worked in having worked across these worlds, 600 01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:44,559 and with the engagement that I've had with the Bigfoot community in addition to the 601 01:04:44,599 --> 01:04:49,519 scientific community. I mean, you know, it's it's interesting how quickly people 602 01:04:49,679 --> 01:04:59,719 look for look for their differences with others instead of looking at their similarities. 603 01:05:00,519 --> 01:05:03,239 For example, I mean, even with this study, you know, I 604 01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:08,159 have a lot of people asking me questions, like, you know, assuming 605 01:05:08,199 --> 01:05:13,880 that you know, for example, oh, you're doing you're doing a scientific 606 01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,559 you know, you're doing a DNA study, so therefore, um, you 607 01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:24,800 must align with like, you know, certain ideas in the Bigfoot community about 608 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:30,599 flesh and blood versus woo or whatever. And it's like you know, which 609 01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:34,960 UM, you know, I think is interesting because I do have you know, 610 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:41,079 I do recognize that there are people who UM and it's not most people, 611 01:05:41,119 --> 01:05:45,480 that there are people who tell some really bizarre accounts. I had a 612 01:05:45,519 --> 01:05:53,039 conversation just this week, UM with a big Foot eye witness who had some 613 01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:59,679 rather unusual elements to his story, you know, UM, and that's great. 614 01:06:00,079 --> 01:06:02,360 I mean, you know, I listen to that, and I think 615 01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:08,719 that that's I think that that's really interesting. UM. I don't know that 616 01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:13,119 I can you know, I don't know that I can speak to UM what 617 01:06:13,159 --> 01:06:17,400 it is that folks are experiencing when they have the sort of UM. I 618 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:23,679 guess you'd say those woo experiences. But UM, you know, but there's 619 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,000 I see, you know, from the outside looking in, I see this 620 01:06:27,079 --> 01:06:30,960 disconnect in the Bigfoot community, and I think part of it is because people 621 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:36,360 are very invested in their particular um, their particular ideas. Yeah, UM, 622 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,679 I don't have any problem with somebody telling me, hey, this was 623 01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:45,760 my experience, and yeah, maybe my experience seems really unusual. UM. 624 01:06:46,199 --> 01:06:51,000 Where I where I find that UM people end up, you know, in 625 01:06:51,039 --> 01:06:58,880 these tribes, is when they get to really interpreting what they what they're and 626 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:06,519 usually they're certain what their experiences mean. So you know, whether that's people 627 01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:13,559 who say, well, I saw a sasquatch and I know that it's an 628 01:07:13,599 --> 01:07:17,679 animal and not close to human at all. I mean, I don't know 629 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:23,440 quite how you'd know that from looking at something, But you know there are 630 01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,639 people who have that, you know, very strong idea to people. You 631 01:07:27,679 --> 01:07:32,079 know, I mean people who are certain that sasquatch is an alien or whatever 632 01:07:32,119 --> 01:07:36,360 it. Maybe. You know, there's a lot of people with a lot 633 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:43,360 of certainties about things. And I think unfortunately part of why, part of 634 01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:50,920 why that that exists is because there hasn't been scientific work done in this field, 635 01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:56,639 by and large, not too much, and so we really don't have 636 01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:03,320 the data to work with. We don't have of information about the sasquatch phenomenon 637 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:14,639 such that we can determine what's going on here. And so that's what we 638 01:08:14,719 --> 01:08:20,520 need to be united and trying to fill in. Let's get some data and 639 01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:28,560 for me, you know, DNA is certainly where that you know where that 640 01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:33,520 can probably make the biggest difference. People have said for many, many years, 641 01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,119 oh, you know, you need a body, you need a body, 642 01:08:36,159 --> 01:08:41,760 and then science will take this seriously. But the reality is is that 643 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:48,159 you don't need a body anymore for science to take the idea seriously, not 644 01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:54,880 if you have the DNA evidence. And in fact, the DNA evidence is 645 01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:04,720 actually superior because you can imagine that if somebody did you know, somebody did 646 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:10,479 say, here's a body, I ran it over yesterday with my truck and 647 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,560 they produce a body, what's the first question that people are going to ask, 648 01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:17,880 Well, what does the DNA say that it is. Yeah, that's 649 01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:23,720 the biggest question out there. I'd really i'd really like to see folks united 650 01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:29,279 in at least agreeing that that's a that's a good question that could that could 651 01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:32,840 help get us to a point, you know, a common point of you 652 01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:39,880 know, hey, let's we should all be excited to to find out to 653 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:44,319 find out more about that. I mean, you have the people who are 654 01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:48,479 on the fence or in disbelief where something like this could prove that, hey, 655 01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,199 these things really are out there, and then the people who are convinced, 656 01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:58,479 uh due to having a siding or just whatever, this will answer the 657 01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,680 question of what they actually are. So yeah, I think it's definitely something 658 01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:10,880 that could get everybody on the same page in at least one aspect. Well, 659 01:10:11,159 --> 01:10:14,880 I would hope so, I would hope so. But again, I 660 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,159 mean, I think if you look at our larger culture, you look at 661 01:10:17,199 --> 01:10:23,000 the politics, you look at the country at large, getting us together, 662 01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:28,319 it's kind of difficult. But I you know, that's but that's that's that's 663 01:10:28,319 --> 01:10:32,119 where I am. I'd like, I'm very curious, and i'd like I'd 664 01:10:32,119 --> 01:10:39,920 like to see anybody who is curious, um uh be along for the ride 665 01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:43,479 with me. Well, Darby, I know you've been filling under the weather. 666 01:10:44,399 --> 01:10:47,199 We've had problems connecting, but I'm so glad we were finally able to 667 01:10:47,239 --> 01:10:51,600 make it happen. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing this information 668 01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:56,600 and for all the work you're putting into this. I wish you the best 669 01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:00,439 of luck. Man. I you know I'm one of those people blue Oh. 670 01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:05,319 I want this to happen so bad and at least you've opened the door 671 01:11:05,359 --> 01:11:09,640 for that possibility. So thank you. You know. I think if there's 672 01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:15,680 anything else I can add, it would just be that at the end of 673 01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:21,359 the day, this study is only going to be as good as the samples 674 01:11:21,399 --> 01:11:28,399 that we get, and so this really is. This really is a collaborative 675 01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:34,600 effort, and so I really hope that people who have these these quality, 676 01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:45,199 interesting samples will make them available. This is the opportunity. If you've seen 677 01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:50,359 something you can't explain, send me an email at Bigfootcrossroad at gmail dot com. 678 01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:55,640 Check out bigfootcrossroads dot com for links to the social media, a contact 679 01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:59,760 form to reach me. Everything you need all in one place. And if 680 01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,560 you want to send a sample to Darby, I'll have that information for you 681 01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:08,199 as well. And until next time, I remember there's something in the woods.