WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:14.880 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Reid and from 2 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:22.160 London Laurent Segala. Today on Redefining Energy, we're going to talk about grid 3 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:27.320 enhancing technologies. It's really time to address that. Butterneck, because we hear 4 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:31.600 all over the place that the main hindrance for the development of vulnerabile is connection 5 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:35.280 q so grid operators just says, sorry, we're full, you need to 6 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:39.439 wait four years. But first a word from our new sponsor, a Mundi, 7 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:45.119 and they are so professionals that they have had a professional announcement. Speaker, 8 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.640 Let's listen to her. Redefining Energy sponsored by A Mundi, the leading 9 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:54.759 European asset manager, your trusted partner to accelerate the transition to a low carbon 10 00:00:54.840 --> 00:01:00.280 future. Leading asset manager based on the IPE ranking. Investing involves risk can 11 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:04.040 sort your financial advisor. Yeah, a lot of things are not changing in 12 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:10.200 greed technologies and there's been this extraordinary report and we put the links in the 13 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:18.120 shoe from our friends RMI, the x Rocky Mountain Institute that are explaining all 14 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:23.640 the new technologies which are available. Some are digital, some are hardware, 15 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:30.239 and they're all under that moniker of greed enhancing technologies. So they speak about, 16 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:38.280 oh my god, you've got three mains, which are pfc's powerflow controls, 17 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:45.760 DLR, dynamic light rating and TOO technology optimization. But that's just to 18 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:52.079 get the best out of existing cables. We also want to talk about new 19 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:56.120 technologies in cabling, and that's why we decided to bring on Jason Wild, 20 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:01.280 who is the CEO and founder of a company called TS Conductor, to talk 21 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:10.159 about really reconducting. Jason has a PhD in materials science and an extensive experience 22 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:16.479 in carbon fiber composite, and it comes originally from the aircraft industry, so 23 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:22.879 that's different thinking to an old industry. And he has been working and listened 24 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:28.599 to that on the Boeing Dreamliner, the Airbus three point fifty and for the 25 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:32.280 military the F eighteen, F twenty two, and F thirty five. So 26 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:38.680 is one of the brightest mind when it comes to new materials. So let's 27 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:42.520 bring him on the show. Jason, Welcome to the show. Thank you 28 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.240 very much for the opportunity to be here. Jason, I was recently at 29 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:51.879 a meeting where there was a whole pile of officials in the United States from 30 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:57.280 the DOE, from the various grid operators, and I was really taken back 31 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.840 by one comment which was, all, great, we have this Inflation Reduction 32 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:06.120 Act which is going to push homegrown industry and on AM, but we won't 33 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.080 be able to get the power to it because we can't build the grid quick 34 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:14.800 enough. Then we had a discussion in around the bottlenecks and an ad Listen, 35 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:15.919 I know you're in the middle of it, but I'd love you to 36 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:21.039 just talk about what is going on in the power grid in the United States 37 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.120 and how you see that When you think about IRA, majority of the incentives 38 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:32.919 are really for renewalboard development, battery technologies. We hardly see much related to 39 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:39.360 grid grid deployment in the US. If you look at how many years the 40 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:44.879 renewed board developer had to wait for the connection to happen with a grid or 41 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:51.120 average, it's about four years. That's a very significant weight period. And 42 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:55.919 you look at from a bigger picture perspective. One is energy transition. We 43 00:03:55.960 --> 00:04:00.560 only consume a third of the energy in the form of elect tricty. The 44 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.000 other two third we have to figure out a way to convert to electricity for 45 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:11.280 electrification of everything. In all these renewables that are waiting to be connected with 46 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.759 iron money, they're going to be even more of a waiting queue. The 47 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.439 reason being there are a lot more money going into these renewable development, so 48 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:25.480 that challenge in terms of bottleneck in the grid is going to become even more 49 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:32.839 severe. And I read recent Navidia announcement that last quarter they sold about half 50 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:41.600 million aigpus those modules. Each one of them consumes the same amount of electricity 51 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:47.920 of average US household in a year. They just added five hundred thousand homes 52 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:54.160 in terms of electric mode and they're just starting to skyrock in terms of demand 53 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.040 for their product. So we're going to see this problem getting actually worse. 54 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.319 And you look at challenges in upgrading the power grid. If you are looking 55 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.519 at new lines, some of the new lines takes ten or twenty years to 56 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:12.439 build. Obviously it's going to cost a lot of money. The other aspect 57 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:15.079 is reconductoring, and I hope that we have a chance to talk about that 58 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:23.600 because that is significantly ignored a segment that can sholp us to address energy transition 59 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:28.600 needs, but do it with affordability and also do it with a sense of 60 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:32.240 urgency as well. We do not have unlimited time in terms of climate change. 61 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:41.240 I'm glad you're here because nobody even used reconductoring a year ago. And 62 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.120 now I'm sure if you do the Google search on that world you see it 63 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:50.600 start to spike. Now, what going enjoying is a concept of replacing old 64 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:57.319 wires with new wires. So in fact, the great advantage we see is 65 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:01.240 that somehow we can use the same pylons. Putting new pilons is probably what 66 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:05.079 u TD wants to do, But in fact it's all about efficiency. It's 67 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:13.720 about using the same pilons and just put more efficient and powerful wires without the 68 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:18.240 pilons crumbling under the weight of their own wires. How did you come about? 69 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:24.040 Because you know you have a background of advanced material and so how are 70 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:28.399 the wires today the one we use? And where are we heading? When 71 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:33.480 you think about our industry, the conductors that are used in basically it's the 72 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:40.920 backbone of our paragrid. We're still relying on a conductor technology called ACSR. 73 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:46.240 It stands for Aluminum Conductor steel reinforced that was developed in nineteen oh eight. 74 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:53.439 It was combining the aluminum at the time, which is hard aluminum with high 75 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.399 strand steel. Think about one hundred years ago. The high strand steel is 76 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:01.600 not quite strong enough, so you had you leverage the strengths from heart aluminum. 77 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:05.800 And when you use heart aluminum, you are not getting the best electrical 78 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:11.279 connectivity. And you also have a temperature limit because if you go above ninety 79 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.600 three degrees any grade, the aluminum is going to get anold from hard to 80 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:20.199 soft and you will lose strengths. You're going to create sac problem. That 81 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:27.639 is what's limiting our current carrying capacity in the grid. This I would argue 82 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:31.600 it's probably more than ninety percent or even ninety five percent of the global grid 83 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:38.079 in terms of the wires that are used in the grid. So the technology 84 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:44.720 itself is what's limiting our grid capacity. And you look around everywhere in our 85 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:49.560 daily lives. How many things that are one hundred years old or even older 86 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:56.160 that are still around. We have that with our power grid. The way 87 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.000 to address it in terms of our grid capacity it is the conductor, because 88 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:05.360 that's how the electron get delivered, that's how electron moves. We have to 89 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:11.199 have a bigger pipeline quote unquote, a better conductor. That's able to carry 90 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:18.560 more preferably with the same structure. And you mentioned about reconductoring. Reconductoring, 91 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.399 it is about leveraging the existing infrastructures, the existing rights of way, the 92 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:30.439 existing towers or pylons or poles, and if you can avoid retrofiting those structure, 93 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:33.840 it's even better. But even if you have to retrofit some structure, 94 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.240 it will still be better off in terms of cost, in terms of project 95 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.519 schedule compared to do a rebuild or brand new transmission line. And that's how 96 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:52.000 we address energy transition with urgency and with affordability. That is, leverage what 97 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.799 we currently have instead of wasting them. You know, have to start from 98 00:08:54.840 --> 00:09:01.080 new. Jason can ask a little bit about your sales process into this industry, 99 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:03.559 because you've just talked about a technology which is one hundred years old, 100 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.519 and I could actually argue, actually the way the grid has been managed hasn't 101 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.759 changed in one hundred years as well. So you've got a really conservative industry 102 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.200 and you're bringing a new technology to market. And if I really look back 103 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.399 in the last twenty years, there's very few technologies in the grid area that 104 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.960 have come to market, and I suppose are they in enough pain now at 105 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:31.159 this point in tam to make changes by design, our utilities are monopolies, 106 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.200 so they do not have to in the way to compete the way private industries 107 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:39.440 do in the past. I mean even today you could say that utility do 108 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:46.320 have the right prerogative in terms of safety, reliability of the system, and 109 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:52.720 the new conductor technology has to pass certain significant hohts, especially in terms of 110 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:58.679 safety and a reliability. So in the past twenty to thirty years there have 111 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:05.039 been attempts terms of bringing new material science to the conductor space. For example, 112 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:11.120 using composites that we can manage the sag associated with steel, we can 113 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:18.399 manage the weight being heavy we steal, make the new strength material lighter and 114 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:24.840 also have a stronger material than steal. And those attempts have not quite been 115 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:31.720 as successful because they are not able to check the box in terms of reliability, 116 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.759 safety and also robustness in the field line crew. Their safety depend on 117 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:43.360 the product's integrity. I think there's a word of zero error tolerance. That 118 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.000 is exactly the phrase zero error tolerance in terms of TS technology. What I 119 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:52.840 can do is provide a very short answer here, what does T and S 120 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:58.919 stand for? T in Our technology stands for technology. We do integrate the 121 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:03.720 best mature science have to offer today. That is the most conductive aluminum combined 122 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:11.919 with carbon composite material. It is not only the best possible material in building 123 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:16.279 a conductor as a strength number because it's super lightweight twenty percent of steer weight, 124 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.799 virtually no summer expansion in twice the strength of steel. It is also 125 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.639 a relatively proven material system because it's used in aerospace for the past fifty years. 126 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.919 So that's on the mature science side. The other part of TS is 127 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:39.399 the s the safety aspect. We feature a unique aluminum encapsulation protection around our 128 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:46.480 carbon composite core that allows the product with safety, reliability, longevity or designing. 129 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:54.279 It has the necessary robustness in the field and it is compatible with traditional 130 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:01.879 work practice in terms of storage, installation, maintenance or emergency restorations. That 131 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.279 is what's needed by our industry. So you have to have a technology. 132 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:11.399 It's not just performing and we can do two x or three x in capacity 133 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.919 and also bring efficiency too the grid. But more importantly we have to check 134 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:20.519 the box in terms of safety, reliability, longevity, workmanship in the field, 135 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:26.759 and we can check those boxes Jason. When I look at your partners, 136 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:31.080 I see National Grid, I see next their Energy, which is probably 137 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:37.720 one of the biggest utt in the US, and of course breakthrough energy coming 138 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:45.039 out of big gates. How did you convince those initial partners, because I 139 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:50.919 guess that must have been more difficult than rolling out later first off Bill Okay's 140 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:56.240 breakthrough energy venture. We have been very blessed with their support. They're passion 141 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:01.320 about environmental clause about sustained development. So do we. And by the way, 142 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:07.559 we are a public benefit corporation in addition for being for profit, because 143 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:13.279 we have to take care of our investor partners and our public mission is sustainable 144 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.120 development in greenhouse gas emission reduction. We take that very seriously. In terms 145 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.159 of National Grid Next Era, we could not have asked for a better partner, 146 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:28.519 utility partner in particular, they did their fiework, they vetted our technology, 147 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:33.120 and they are already using our technology now next Era for example their own 148 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:39.759 FBL and we just did our first project with them. Granted that the big 149 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.559 utilities, they have a process, they have a protocol and you have to 150 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:48.120 follow and this is why it takes time to get technology adopted. With utility 151 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:54.000 companies, but at the same time there are also more nimbo utilities. For 152 00:13:54.039 --> 00:14:01.919 example, we work with TVA Basing Electric, MDU Mid American RPAPS and they 153 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:09.360 are already our customers in terms of using TIS technology, not a pilot base, 154 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.120 but actually commercial projects, and we are very grateful for their support. 155 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:20.200 For our industry to move forward and for society to complete energy transition, you 156 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:26.039 need visionary companies like nexs Era, like National Grid, so we're very blessed 157 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.240 with their support. Jason, can I ask you about the incentive structures that 158 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.600 are in place in the market, because LN sort of said it at the 159 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.919 beginning of the discussion, which was what you've got is the pylons, and 160 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:41.799 you've got a conductor on top of it, and you're changing it. But 161 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.480 actually a lot of the incentives are that let's not just change the cable, 162 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.440 let's change also the pilon. So tell me about how the incentive structure is 163 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.360 it helping you or is it hindering you? And you need changes in the 164 00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:01.360 regulation. Let me explain it this way. Our customer base are heavily regulated, 165 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.559 so they had to follow the rules that's established their buying pattern, their 166 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:13.159 technology adoption is also affected by policy and the regulated utility. Their business model 167 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.080 is simply make capex investment and then get the return on the capex investment. 168 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.919 So naturally the higher the capex, the better. So when you look at 169 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:30.200 building new lines versus reconductoring, which one is going to have a greater capex. 170 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.440 That's the new lines and a rebuild versus reconductoring. And this is why 171 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:39.600 you don't really hear much about reconductoring, And that might be one of the 172 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:45.759 reasons. Another point I wanted to make regarding the policy side or regulation side 173 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:52.039 efficiency, we have made a lot of progress as society in the consumption side 174 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.519 of electricity. Look at your kitchen, dishwashers, microwaves, you have energy 175 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.799 star rating. You actually get paid for being more efficient. On the generation 176 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:07.759 side, whether it's solar panel or wind turbines, we have far more efficient 177 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.799 generation systems in place, but we're not paying much attention to the grid, 178 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.679 the middle the delivery of electricity. Some of it had to do with the 179 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.840 lack of choice in conductors or a SSRs, so you're not going to have 180 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.759 a more efficient conductor, right, But the policy is behind the curve in 181 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:33.879 terms of now you do have technologies that are substantially better in terms of efficiency, 182 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:41.039 and we actually do give credit for transformers that use a morphous metal that 183 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.919 gives a very tiny bit improvement in efficiency, but we do not have a 184 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:52.159 policy or a mechanism in place for a more efficient conductor to be used. 185 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.000 I would go further on this topic that if we allow, from a policy 186 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:03.799 standpoint, the efficiency, the line loss reduction of using conductors like ts to 187 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:11.039 be monetized, you can transform the business. You can transform energy transition because 188 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.039 that economic benefit, in addition to a environmental benefit by the way, can 189 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:21.559 be used to pay for the costs associated with great upgrade. Especially if you 190 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:26.960 do reconductoring, you can recope that entire project cost in a matter of a 191 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:32.640 couple of years. That is not being made aware to our policy makers, 192 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:37.079 to the legislations, and a policy change like that could change the world, 193 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:42.119 could transform energy transition. One thing myself and Iran had a discussion the other 194 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:47.359 day was in and around the ratings of lines, which is the rated at 195 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:51.799 a particular temperature, and oftentimes the standards are even at a particular date on 196 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.440 them, which is absolutely ridiculous because in winter you can put more power down 197 00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:02.480 them because the tables are cool. I'd interested here how you see sulfur and 198 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:10.359 controls as part of managing this type of power flows down lines and also does 199 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.119 it fit into what you're doing, and how do you see it fitting in 200 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:18.759 because you're a material science company. Really you look at capacity rating. Our 201 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.200 industry is very conservative, so when they do capacity rating, they normally assume 202 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:26.519 the worst case. Okay, there's not much of a wind going and the 203 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:32.240 ambient temperature is very warm, so you are limited by that. And some 204 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.359 utility have a winter rating and also a summer rating, and one of them 205 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:41.400 is the peak load or the peak capacity. Constraints situation. When the weather 206 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.279 changes. When I say weather change, I mean wind condition changes, ambient 207 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:52.000 temperature changes, even sun you know you have clouds versus no cloud you have 208 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.960 a very significant impact in terms of how much current the circuit can carry. 209 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:03.200 And this is where digitization comes in in terms of make the control room with 210 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:08.119 the awareness of what is actually going on with the circuit. This is the 211 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:15.279 where TIS technology we believe is already state of the art, there's additional room 212 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.599 to improve. That is, we are working on making the conductor smart itself 213 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:26.519 and we're integrating an optical fiber inside. It's like creating the nerve inside the 214 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:32.799 conductor that allows you to tell the control room what is the conductor temperature and 215 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.559 what is the line sagging. We do not need any assumptions whatsoever. With 216 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:44.519 this technology. We will be able to add another thirty percent additional capacity like 217 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.640 what the industry is currently considering dynamic line rating, for example with add on 218 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:56.640 devices. But we can do it if we allow the conductor to become smart, 219 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.200 we can do that without any assumption. What's we have that you have 220 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:07.119 real time condition monitoring of the circuit itself. This technology would also allow you 221 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.640 to do other things, for example extreme weather. You will be able to 222 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:19.119 know the impact from extreme ice storm, hurricane wing or even wirefire. And 223 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:26.240 there are some reports recently that utility are blamed for massive fires and the damages 224 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:32.480 with our own conductor technology. If you have let's say transmission lining, a 225 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.119 flash fire passing through the old wires are going to sag closer to the fire 226 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:42.920 right below. Why because the steer wires inside It's going to induce that soummar 227 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.319 sagging and your conductor is going to be exposed to even more severe heat. 228 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:53.160 Now you not only have a sagging problem, you are also anneeling the hard 229 00:20:53.240 --> 00:21:00.720 aluminums in this traditional conductor. So even if the circuit survives, those are 230 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:06.839 no longer acceptable anymore because you have clearance violations. If you look at TIS 231 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:12.400 technology, our aluminum is already fully aniel the carbon composite core that is protected. 232 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:17.160 It does not have a sag issue, So it's going to stay very 233 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:22.400 high way above the fire right below. And even if you have heat on 234 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.839 these aluminums that you may have a needi effect on the traditional aluminum in the 235 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:33.359 traditional conductor, it's not going to affect our conductor either, So it's going 236 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:40.400 to able to manage that fire situation better. And all of these are possible 237 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:45.200 with new technologies like GS. If I look at the US and you talk 238 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.839 a lot about utilities, but there is a developer we admire a lot, 239 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.480 which is Michael Skilly and kid United, and he has all these plans for 240 00:21:52.599 --> 00:22:00.119 this big transcontinental connectors. I've got the list here, the Continental Connector or 241 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.079 the North Plane connector, the Picos West and the South lions on. Are 242 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:08.559 you talking to micro Scaling and his team, Yes, we have, and 243 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:14.039 I actually read the book superpower. I think he was a bit ahead of 244 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.519 time in those old days, and he's back in the game. We're talking 245 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.400 to Great United, they're building new lines, and I wanted to make a 246 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.079 point as well on that topic. Because there is the perception in the industry 247 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:32.119 that the advanced conductor like ts, they're just too expensive, not affordable, 248 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:38.119 not competitive in new transmission projects. We actually can prove them wrong. We 249 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.519 work with Basic Electric, they build new transmission lines. We have to beat 250 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:48.799 ACSR technology in cost, in project level cost. So how do we do 251 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:56.000 it. Our conductor has this natural low sag phenomena or attribute, so we 252 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.000 are able to spend the towers a lot further apart. You are able to 253 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:07.799 build the lines with fewer towers means fewer foundations as well, or shorter towers 254 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:14.119 or lighter towers at the same time, and that's how you can drive down 255 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:18.640 the overall project capex you look at building new lines in the US, what 256 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.200 I've heard in the past is conductor is only about five percent of the cost. 257 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:27.400 The structure associated cost is as much as thirty percent. You can easily 258 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:33.720 save enough on the structure related costs like the towers foundations to pay for the 259 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:41.720 modest premium of TS conductors, but the advanced conductor has to be properly market 260 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:47.079 positioned because we are positioned for mainstream adoption, not a niche technology. That's 261 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:52.480 why we call the TS its TORSU stands for total solution. It is competitive 262 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:57.240 in terms of project costs in new lines as well as reconductoring, and it 263 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:04.039 is also good for distribution upgrade as well as transmission circuits. Jason, I 264 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.480 just want to tell you that I've been following your business for many years this 265 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.640 point in time, and I've always been a little bit hesitant to bring on 266 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:15.680 businesses like yourselves because I don't want to be picking the winners or the losers 267 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.039 in terms of tech. But I'm very clear in my head actually that you 268 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.480 are a winner, which is why I did what we get you on and 269 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:26.240 really said I need to get this guy on, and you are now getting 270 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.440 traction in this very difficult market. So I'd love you to talk about the 271 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:33.559 future your business and how you see it over the next three to five years. 272 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.920 We are blessed with customers, but we're also getting recognized by our industry 273 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.799 as well. We won the Edison Pioneers in the Ways of the Year Award 274 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:48.559 October of last year. We won the PLATS Global Energy Award December of last 275 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:52.559 year. I expect in about twelve to eighteen months that we're going to see 276 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:59.720 that pivoting point in terms of technology, like ours are considered to be a 277 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:04.079 BA line option instead of just the alternative, and we're getting there. There's 278 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:10.400 a critical mass that is building, especially with the bigger utilities. You only 279 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:15.759 need a few of them to volume adopt your technology for others to follow, 280 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:21.160 and we do have that mentality in that industry that no one wants to be 281 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:23.720 the first, but at the same time, if somebody else did it, 282 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:30.200 they're happy to follow. The second point is we are building a major East 283 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:36.720 Coast expansion in the US and we expect to have that additional capacity becoming available 284 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.240 before end of twenty five. That is about ten times the size of our 285 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:45.480 operation in Countingdon Beach, California. We will have a problem in terms of 286 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:52.160 execution and a delivery to customer expectations instead of a demand issue. I think 287 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:56.799 the demand in terms of conductors, we don't have to debate that it's going 288 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:00.799 to be there. And in the US there's already a shortage in conductors. 289 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:06.400 The lead suppliers require fifty to seventy week lead time and that's it outrages. 290 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.720 So we like to come in and the shelp utilities on that front as well. 291 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.799 And in three to five years we also expect to have our smart conductor 292 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:22.960 technology available to our grid customers. That is important because the digitization of everything 293 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.920 in life should also apply to power grid and there's much more that we can 294 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:33.400 do with conductor being smart, not just the conventional way talking about smart grid 295 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:37.200 being a smart meter that you make a smart grid. And also we need 296 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:42.960 to bring better solutions for wildfire remediation. We have a solution actually we developed 297 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.559 it was handpicked by PG and E in twenty twenty one for commercial pilot, 298 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:53.720 that's before they shifted their major focus toward undergrounding. And that is a technology 299 00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:00.519 that features smart optical fiber inside the distribution wire and we can add the insulation 300 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:08.279 to our conductor that we can deploy that covered conductor with existing polls, maintain 301 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:15.319 side clearance, keep the maximum tation under for example California win you basically can 302 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:23.079 retrofit these high risk distribution circuit in fire zone without changing out or modify the 303 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:30.200 poles. That is the cheapest, fastest way to address grid modernization. Well, 304 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.799 Jason, I want some thank you. You need to send me one 305 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:40.119 matter so at home, Jason, thank you so much for coming on the 306 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:42.440 show. Really great having you on the show. Thanks a lot, and 307 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:47.319 we wish the best for Chess Connector and we put a link in our show 308 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:52.240 notes. Thank you very much. Job. What is the most powerful sentence 309 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.920 when you are selling a new technology? Won't tell me you'll see your money 310 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:02.240 back in three years? Oh yeah right, okay, yeah, yeah, 311 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:04.680 yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Let's face it, 312 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.519 the cost of acrecy production has gone down in the past twenty years, 313 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:15.759 but the cost of transmission and distribution has grown despite a stable consumption, and 314 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:19.759 now that the consumption is expected to go up, it is absolutely critical that 315 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:26.680 every utility up their game and start using new technologies like this one. These 316 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:29.640 are not fly by night. You know, They've been tested by next Stead, 317 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.720 They've been tested by National Grid in the UK with very innovative in general. 318 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:41.119 So I see a lot of future for those new conductor technologies. And 319 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.480 actually I want to say another thing. I think now what's happened around is 320 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.960 that there's a pain point that is now hitting grid operators and utilities because it's 321 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:56.359 not acceptable to have to wait four years to have a connection. And I 322 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.359 don't care if you're a renewable developer or someone building a factory, it's not 323 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.480 acceptable. So things have to change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And 324 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:10.319 look it's literally going to be all of the above because I just read an 325 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:15.079 article. Yeah it was in PV magazine. Listen to this. Amazon Web 326 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:23.319 Services helps Duke energy complete powerflow studies in hours, not months. So what 327 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:26.960 happened is, of course Amazon always looking for more load, more data centers 328 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:33.720 and so on. And normally the ISO said guys, I need to run 329 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.920 my simulation and so on, and it's going to take I don't know, 330 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.960 six to nine months, and they say, no, no, that's just 331 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.480 too long. We're going to put an AI application and they put the air 332 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:49.599 application on all the modeling and they got the result within two days. That's 333 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:55.519 what needs to happen now. All those pilots, they should be rolled out 334 00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:00.640 literally everywhere. Otherwise we won't have an energy transition. Oh big statement. 335 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.759 We won't have an energy transition. Let me just say, we won't continue 336 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.160 electrifying our energy system. You're absolutely right on that. I'm totally with you. 337 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:12.799 We have to embrace technologies, new technologies right across the energy value chain. 338 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:18.319 Excellent. Well, we thank Jason for coming on the show. It 339 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:25.400 was eliminating. We thank our new partner A Mundi, great asset manager, 340 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.559 very serious and very conscious about the environment. Well said my friend, and 341 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.839 I think that's a good way to end this show, and I talk to 342 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:44.680 you next week and forward. Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't 343 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.039 forget to read the show and subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or the 344 00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:51.559 platform of your choice.