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The American Museum of Natural History in
New York City is taking action to remove

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human remains from its display after reports
raised legal and ethical concern The museum,

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holding about twelve thousand individuals remains,
will revise its policies to emphasize the importance

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of returning these remains. The decision
follows an investigation by the Art Crime professor

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Aaron Thompson, who found a lack
of publicly available information about the remain The

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museum acknowledges the historical misuse of human
remains in scientific research rooted in eugenics and

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racism, and aims to address these
concerns. A substantial number of these remains

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belonged to Native America, about twenty
six percent, with ongoing repatriation efforts in

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accordance with the law, and Thompson
has also shared a database to help people

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discover if their ancestors remains are in
the museum's collection. This article is from

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Artnet and published October nineteenth, twenty
twenty three. Phil Do you want to

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give a comment on this? Oh? Yes, First of all, what

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do they mean by the human remains? Right? Some people might be wondering

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what they mean by human remains?
Basically, human remains can mean the bodies

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and parts of bodies of members of
a species Homo sapiens. This includes os

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theological material that is whole apart skeletons, individual bones, fragments of bones and

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teeths of tissue including organs, skin, cornea, bone, marrow, embryos,

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and slight preparations of human tissue,
nails and ears. But the question

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is, I think that is going
through everyone's mind is how did the museum

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acquire these human remains? Were they
acquired and hell legally and with consent from

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the family members or the ethnic group
to which they belong. Was there vision

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of illicit trade? Uh? Elizabeth
Blair NPR reporter reported that they came from

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doing some investigative research. She found
that they come from like medical schools,

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stolen from sacred burial sites, and
some are donations from brokers. And sadly,

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some of these remains were using eugenet
research, which is kind of a

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flawed science agenda bas and white supremacy. So these remains were used to to

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to try to support their research on
these the you the genetics type research where

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they were trying to use these remains
us to show that people of color are

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persons, mallanated persons were less than
human, or not only that, but

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Native American groups, indigenous groups or
less than human. They are not as

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superior as themselves. That is really
sad that such things were done with these

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human remains, and many of these
remains also belong to enslaved African American And

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the thing is that this museum,
this museum that we are talking about specifically,

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had like twelve thousand human remains and
out of that twelve only twelve ten

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percent, twelve hundred was returned over
the decades. This is really sad.

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So this is some serious stuff going
on here, Kelly, what is your

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take on this? I you know, I probably have a real unpopular opinion

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here because I don't really care,
like what happens to my remains after I'm

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gone, because I'm not going to
care. There is an old down story,

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It's one of my favorite ones to
tell about when Lautsa died. He

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was the father of Daoism and Confucius
was hit one of his contemporaries, and

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they had two completely different schools of
thought. But Confucius recognized Lautza as a

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great scholar, so he went to
the funeral, and when he got there,

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Laudsa's closest friends were basically having a
party, playing instruments, just having

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a good time, and Confucius was
a ball. Then he looked at him

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and he said, how can you
do this? You're supposed to be obeying

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the proper rituals. And one of
Lautsa's friends looked at Confucius, pointed at

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the body and said, what does
he care about rituals? Now? So

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I've always kind of had that kind
of attitude about it, and I realized

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that that's not a common feeling in
the today's world. And I realized that

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a lot of people's, the people
that are left behind, probably don't want

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something like that done with their loved
ones, that they do care about what

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happens to him. So I can
see where the concern comes from. I

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know, I'm not like we want
to realize that. And I think that

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if you are going to have human
remains on display, the permissions of the

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people whose remains those are should have
been gotten beforehand. Now I don't know

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how you're going to do that with
ancient remains. We can talk about that

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later. But unfortunately, in most
of these cases, the museum didn't have

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the permission to have these things,
So John, I'm going to swing it

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back to you, Okay. It
is kind of non consensual body desecration in

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my mind for what now amounts to
a pseudoscience, though in the eighteenth and

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nineteenth centuries it was considered legitimate science. I do feel it's disrespectful to the

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families and the communities of these These
remains deserve to know where they are.

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One of the things is that nobody
bothered to tell anybody in these collections,

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anybody's family where they were. The
bodies just disappeared. So now they're trying

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to figure out whose body is it. That's going to be pretty difficult.

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They do has some records, and
they've been trying to piece together some.

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But actually Thompson, who wrote the
article in the other article in hyper Allergic,

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has found at least the regions and
the tribes of ten five hundred of

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the twelve thousand remains. She has
information on them. Some of these are

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specific to the families. They have
one example of a man in Tanzania I

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believe, who was hung as part
of the genocide of the Germans, did

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on the German West African colony,
and they shipped his corpse up to an

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anthropologist in Berlin who kept it for
many years, and then eventually his widow

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sold it to the American Natural History
Museum in New York and so his and

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I think they've actually identified the bones
and they have it in a box,

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but they have not repatriated him to
Tanzania or this man's grandson who he's in

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his seventies now and he really wants
to have his grandfather's remains to go in

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the tribal sacred site. So again, you know, they're dragging their feet

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on it, sometimes claiming poverty and
other times coming up with well, if

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you can't keep it in a human
controlled space, which they did with the

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so called Copperman which was found in
a mine in Peru, I believe,

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for a South American country. So
it's this is something that really bothers me

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because they say they're changing their stuff, and granted it is recent, because

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they didn't start even thinking about this
until it was exposed in the press by

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the criminal investigator that they might be, you know, having broken the law

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about this. And the thing is
that this museum isn't the only one.

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There are over one hundred thousand bodies
that were illicitly gotten from various inst and

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are now in various institutions. The
Smithsonian alone has thirty three thousand, and

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hard University has twenty two thousand.
There are a lot of institutions involved in

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this. However, they have actually
started in earnest trying to return as many

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as they can. And the law
that says they have to return Native American

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and foreign native remains to the concerned
parties the tribes was passed in nineteen ninety,

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that is thirty three years ago,
and they've only sent back a thousand

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and two hundred overseas. They actually
funded some of the expedition to grave rob

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the Inuit and Eskimo peoples and some
other tribes in South America. They sent

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their own people to rob graves for
this. Granted at the time they didn't

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think of them as human, but
still they're human. And I don't buy

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any excuses at this point that they
can't repatriate these that's bs. I mean,

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like I said, put them in
a box, seal it up,

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send it d hs to Tanzia,
Tanzania, and he'll get them. You

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know. It's like, how hard
can this be? You know, so

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I'm a little bit upset about that. So anyway, Helen, do you

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have anything to add to this.
I'm going to bring to fill first,

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because he was making some good points
before we moved to Kelly. So I'm

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going to bring it back to fail
for a second. Okay, and now

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I have I have plenty of say
so don't you all worry about it?

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You know? I do? Okay, light silent, But Jonathan, you

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missed some interesting points there, and
it brings in to question better. Are

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not this museum which I think they
did not followed the general guidelines of dealing

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with human remains? Actually, I
came across some information from on museum Galleries

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dot their website dot point so the
main responsibilities of museums managing these human remains

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things like rigor, anesty, and
integrity. Realized that museum did not follow

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the sensitivity. They were not sensitive
really to the persons who to whom family

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members, to whom the remains would
belonged. Are even the groups, the

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ethnic groups, indigenous groups, sensitivity, respect, openness, and transparency.

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They were in that open as you
said, they only decide to put on

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this face in the press after or
in Thompson sent to report to them supposing

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the problems in legality and ethics of
how Coriandor's remained right, and they and

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another thing that the museum did not
do is they just had the remains,

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but there was no there was a
lack of publicly available information about the remains,

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like where they were from, how
they were acquired, et cetera,

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who they belonged to. Right,
and now the museum is saying, Oh,

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the solution is we are going to
return those remains, start returning more

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of the remains, and you're going
to create a cast, you know it

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for display rather than of the remains, rather than having the actual remains.

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But there's something they could have done
every since. This shouldn't have to be

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for our investigators to come and tell
them, expose them, you know,

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this is something if they can do
discast. No, they could have done

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that every since. But at least
that's the movement in the right direction.

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Yes, Alan, your thoughts,
Oh, I got that. So when

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we were reviewing this article, what
really struck me is that, like I'm

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glad, Like, yes, it's
a little bit too late, of course

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it is, but at least the
American Natural History museum is at least trying

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to do something to release those remains
to the people that should have them,

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you know. And I don't have
any skin in that game, but I

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understand having those ancestors and familiar bonds
that United culture, like the person has

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said, you know whatever, but
it has a symbolic meaning to these people.

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So I'm all in for that,
and I think that's important to recognize.

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But what I'm more concerned about is
the way that museums have just been

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holding on to Native Americans people of
color artifacts, whether they're you know,

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black people or Latinas, whatever it
is, that they're still holding onto these

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artifacts in their own museum, and
the tribes and other people have to get

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special permission to go into the archives
and look at the things. That this

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is not only happening in the United
States, it's helpening other and other like

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in England and other countries that have
these sort of populations, Native populations a

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part of their culture, and they
have to actually, you know, they're

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not getting to experience their own history. They have to do it with gatekeepers,

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and they have to they have to
cut through red when really it's it's

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theirs. I and people can quibble
about that, but I'm just pointing you

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out. It's not our history,
it's their history. And when I first

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heard about this on an episode of
Last Week Tonight and it and then when

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I read this article, like I
that's where my mind amlily went. And

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it is the holding and gatekeeping of
things that do not belong to us.

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And and I know and museums will
cry as you mentioned me, as you

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mentioned before I think it was Kelly
or John. I'm blanket right now because

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I'm having that brain tonight. But
about how the museums are belly aching because

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they're going to lose money. I
am so sorry. I feel so sorry

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for you. Cry cry cry.
Or what you do is is that you

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have conversations with people of that particular
culture there you're using those artifacts to make

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your displays, and you talk to
them about like, hey, let's find

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it, let's find a happy medium, and then the things that are just

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kind of sitting in storage should be
returned to those people. You know,

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I think everything is negotiable and you
can, we can find an even balance.

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But because people are concerned about profits
over people, where now we see

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that pattern over and over and over
again. This is just another example of

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it. So that's that's where my
kind of concern went, because learning for

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their younger generation to learn about there
are people that came before them and their

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own history is way more important than
the white person's view of our history.

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You know. I think that's a
more important, important conversation, you know,

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that we need to be having.
So I'm going to pass it back

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to you, Kelly, because I
know you have other thoughts, because you

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have a big brain. I don't
know if I have a big brain.

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I do have a lot of thoughts, so not always good thought you know.

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One of the things that this conversation
sparked in me was an old memory

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of when I was like in second
grade and when I went on a field

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trip to the Field Museum in Chicago
and I was so frightened by the Egyptian

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mon I couldn't even look at them. They scared the shit out of me.

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So I don't even know how appropriate
it is to have these things on

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public display where anyone can see them
in the first place. They should at

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least have trigger warnings. I don't
know if they do nowadays. I would

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hope that they do, but I
don't know. I haven't been to a

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museum like that in quite some time. However, however, and I'm going

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to go back again with saying something
that maybe people don't like. I do

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think we need these repositories to learn
more about the human species, how we've

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changed through the millennia, and for
medical purposes, for medical research. So

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as a scientist, I have no
problem with keeping these ancient remains available to

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study. But I do think we
need, as everybody has said, we

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need to be sensitive to the feelings
of the ancestors of these people, even

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if I personally think those feelings are
a bit silly. Again, so maybe

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one day, and this is what
I was thinking, and it's just totally

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silly. But if one day,
if we can ever invent the time machine,

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we can go can ask people if
it's okay to have their remains and

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museums in the future, explain why
we want to, And I wonder,

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I just wonder how many people would
actually in cree to that. I don't

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think. I don't think we have
a whole lot of remains on display in

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museums if we did that. So
and then another thing like if we want

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to, I know, we want
to return these remains back to the to

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the ancestors of the people. But
what do we do, like with the

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ancient remains of a Scythian or an
Akkadian? Who do we return those two?

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Do we just take them back to
where they were found to begin with

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and chunk them back into ground where
some were some souvenir collectors going to go

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and get them for the black market. I don't know. I honestly,

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I don't know. I'm gonna send
it back to John though, I think

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that just keying off your last point
that you know, one civilizations and peoples

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that no longer exist. Of course
you're not gonna be able to send them

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anywhere. However, you know,
it's sort of like Egypt wants all of

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their They want their mummies back,
and they want their relics back, and

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they have a vibrant ancient history museum
in Cairo and Hamas I guess is his

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last name, the Ministry of Antiquities, and that they're starting to get a

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little jealous of, you know,
and cautious about where their artifacts are going.

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And they still are open to research
and things like that. Scientists work

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with them all the time, but
still, you know, most of the

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people that they they got from this
were from donations like and they were still

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collecting remains up until nineteen ninety six, six years after the Repaid Patriot Repatriotization

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Can't Talk Bill was passed into law. And I just I just think that,

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you know, if they knew already, which they had to, that

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they were you know, they have
to pass these back then, why did

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they not just not accept it was
from a journalist who came back from with

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a shrunken head named Timmy from South
America. Most of those shrunken heads generally

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aren't real. They're usually monkeys,
not humans, but some of them are

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real, and so it's a it
was a booming business down there, just

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from my own personal experience. But
I already told you the story of Kaya,

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the seventy year old who's waiting for
his grandfather remains, And so that's

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when if you can trace those back
to an exact thing that happened during a

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genocidal thing, yeah you should.
If it's like, if it's like Skithion,

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what are you going to do?
You know, there's nothing you can

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do. Those people aren't even a
people anymore, so you know, there's

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no place to put those so you
keep them in the museum and study them.

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But there's that, But the American
I'm going to positive right there because

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we don't have much more time in
the segment, and I want to hear

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Phil's final opinions, give my final
world word, and we're going to close

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out. Okay, Phil. The
The thing is, uh that Cali made

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a good point about about the remains
of the those groups that doesn't exist now

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in present they what are they going
to do with them? And I think,

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yeah, I agree with it.
I will say that those remains maybe,

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yes, the the museum can keep, but they need to treat it,

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treat those remains with respect, get
as much background information as possible,

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and display the information together with the
remains. They can display the all of

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that information because it's about education,
educating younger students, educating the masses,

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educating people. And and and given
if they have archaeological evidence in terms of

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stories, finding stories around these groups, right, that can also be posted

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along with the inf mention make it
interesting, uh, and and and give

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some historical background to meet people aware. Okay, this is where these people

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are from, this is what they
used to do, and these are some

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interesting facts about them and to help
persons realize there were humans just like we

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are, right, and they were
struggling to the same things that we are.

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Similar things we struggled with, even
sometimes on a bigger scale because they

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didn't have medical science or certain technologies
to help make life a lot easier.

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Yeah. So yeah, I think
that does the way to go dealmbit for

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those types of remains. And Helen, you want to close us out,

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thank you. Yeah. And I
also I think get to mention this before,

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but there's also a lot of fraud
within these artifacts. There were there

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were there were people that were hired
to go into these museums and they were

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experts on the certain culture and what
their artifacts were, and they found that

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there's frauds and copycats even with in
museums and they say that they are authentic.

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So also keep that in mind,
you know, when we're talking about

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these things, because there's a little
part of my brain that's going are the

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remains of the people that they say
they're the remains of? I mean,

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if there's you know, records back
it up, I'm fine, But it's

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just a little, you know,
little thing that's floating around in my brave

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brain. You know, because I'm
a skeptic and you should be skeptical.

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And on that note of being skeptical, if you want to become to learn

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to be more skeptical, check out
more from the nonpropit