1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,279 Okay, here we go. Welcome to the crime Payers of bond. He 2 00:00:03,319 --> 00:00:06,799 doesn't podcasts. I may were with my friend Michelle Cloud Hughes. When did 3 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:09,439 I when did we actually when was I actually last around you in person? 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,880 Like twenty nineteen? I think I got back from Baja and saw you in 5 00:00:11,919 --> 00:00:15,359 the your barium there. Yeah, yeah, I think it was twenty eighteen 6 00:00:15,439 --> 00:00:20,079 because we were measuring that undescribed species a choya that we got right here, 7 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,879 you know, in coastal San Diego County. So yeah, we just totally 8 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,399 ran into each other in the your burying there, and Allen Rockefeller was there 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,879 too. That was that was awesome. Yeah, that was a long time 10 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,560 ago then, christ that was yeah, crazy, Yeah, it was cool. 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,000 Yeah. I haven't been to bo since twenty nineteen, and I guess 12 00:00:35,039 --> 00:00:38,200 yeah it was twenty eighteen. Would I would go and harass John Redman at 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,479 the Natural History Yeah? Yeah. Anyway, Okay, well cool, thanks 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,200 for being down to do this. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna cut right 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,759 to the chase. Well, I want to talk about how you got into 16 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:50,799 cylinder punch and all this stuff later, but just what the fuck what's going 17 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,960 on with choyas, and more importantly, how do they bang? How did 18 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,479 they do it? This? Okay, so they do it mostly. They 19 00:00:59,679 --> 00:01:03,920 do it very enthusiastically, and yeah, some of them do it more enthusiastically 20 00:01:03,959 --> 00:01:07,719 than others. Some of them barely do it at all. But for the 21 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:11,159 most part, they're all happy to mingle and they're happy to hybridize with each 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,680 other if they've got you know, an even number of chromosomes. Yeah, 23 00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:18,879 So they do it in a whole variety of ways. They've got all kinds 24 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:23,480 of crazy sexual systems, and it's kind of nice. Choices are nice because 25 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:27,920 they're kind of like a manageable subset of the cactus family because there's only like, 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,920 you know, even if you go wild and crazy with the subspecies, 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:36,400 there's only like sixty tax of total compared to something like what Peter works with 28 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,959 in mammalaria, you know, where there's a zillion species. Yeah, but 29 00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:42,840 so of the of the species, we know, you know, we have 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,959 a we have a shit ton of chromosome counts on all of these things. 31 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:51,200 And so it turns out about a third of them are seem to be strictly 32 00:01:51,239 --> 00:01:56,840 diploid. So the normal like twenty two chromosomes. For for cactie, another 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,079 third of them seem to be strictly polyploid, so some multiple of twenty two 34 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:07,879 chromosomes. And then we've got another third that have multiple traumosome levels. Right, 35 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,680 you can have they can have twenty two or forty four, thirty three 36 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:15,199 or twenty two. The teddy bear choia. That's when everybody knows and either 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,759 loves or hates maybe both. I love it. Yeah, yeah, so 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,240 that's that's the that's one of the ones that doesn't bang. And it doesn't 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,520 bang because it's triploid. And so the species that have an odd number of 40 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:34,879 chromosomes don't bang because they can't do myosis right a little bit, you're using 41 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,479 my language. How do they bang? Yeah? I just want to not 42 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,560 Oh this sounds like some sleezebag jersey guido, but really yeah no, Well, 43 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,560 let's explain the hold on because there's late people that are gonna be listening 44 00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:47,960 to to be polyploid, to be diploid, we should express the people that 45 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,719 all all vertebrates are are diploid, right like humans are deployed. You have 46 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:57,080 two cops on there. That's how you get it. You know, a 47 00:02:57,199 --> 00:03:00,960 dominant recess or whatever, you got copies of the same gene. But plants 48 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:02,680 don't need to play by those rules. They can be polyploid. They can 49 00:03:02,759 --> 00:03:07,560 have some plants have a thousand copies, you know, over a thousand copies 50 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:12,280 of the same chromosome, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah, And so polyploidy 51 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:19,159 in plants is like a super clever evolutionary trick to deal with the fact that 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,120 you're an organism that's stuck in place, I mean literally rooted in place, 53 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:25,479 so when the environment goes to shit, you can't get up and migrate to 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,960 a better environment. So polyploidy is kind of a way. I think of 55 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:37,000 it as like giving Mother Nature more legos to play with, right, yeah, 56 00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:38,400 stuff exactly, You've got more spare parts. So it's like you can 57 00:03:38,439 --> 00:03:42,919 dink around with some genes over here, but then you've already got these, 58 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,439 like other ones that kind of as backups in case something goes really wrong with 59 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:50,159 what you're screwing around with. Yeah, So it's it's a great way. 60 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:54,639 Polyploid is a great way not only for plants to you know, survive in 61 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,919 changing environments, but also to get into new niches. So there's there's there's 62 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:06,000 things that can obviously turn off and on different different copies of the chromosome. 63 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,919 Right, So, like say you're growing in an area that's pretty lush, 64 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,520 it's it's like a subtropical thing going on. You get like a seasonal seasonally 65 00:04:13,599 --> 00:04:17,319 dry, winter wet warm uh summer, well it's warm yet around, but 66 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,920 then suddenly a mountain range goes up and now it changes to a summer dry 67 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,079 regime with a winter wet. But you've got multiple copies of a chromosome, 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,199 so you can just that, you know, you can start playing around, 69 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,439 you know, with with what's getting you know, coated out right, right, 70 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,879 you can turn yeah, yeah, exactly, you can turn on the 71 00:04:36,959 --> 00:04:41,920 genes that make the proteins that give you, you know, higher heat tolerance 72 00:04:41,959 --> 00:04:45,720 or higher you know, the ability to deal with higher water stress or whatever 73 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,560 you're dealing with, sorry, or you know. Salt is another big issue 74 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:54,680 that of course desert plants deal with because of the oh that's stuff washing off 75 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,279 the rocks coming into you know, yeah yeah, and you and you get 76 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,240 these ship lakes and then you know it dries up of course because it's hot, 77 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,720 and all that's left behind are all these salts. So a lot of 78 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:10,199 you know, a lot of that adaptive genetic stuff. Also in the deserts 79 00:05:10,199 --> 00:05:13,160 has to do with salts as well. So yeah, it's just a really 80 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:18,399 Polyploidy is just a really clever way for plants to deal with changing environments basically. 81 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:23,759 But the thing about polyploidy is that, you know, it has its 82 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:29,560 advantages, but it's got its disadvantages too. So when you get more chromosomes, 83 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:32,720 you have basically you have more chances to screw up during myosis, right, 84 00:05:32,759 --> 00:05:35,759 because I mean, myosis just blows me away. It's such an incredibly 85 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:41,720 complex thing that happens, and it just amazes me that it happens everywhere, 86 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:47,160 and you know, all sexually reproducing organisms, but things go wrong when you 87 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:53,920 have more chromosomes, and so polyploids, certainly in choyas. And I want 88 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,120 to have the caveat here that my expertise is basically choyas. Outside of that, 89 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,759 it's like you're the wizard. Yeah yeah, But outside of that, 90 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:06,079 it's like I'm kind of extrapolating here from choyas. Yeah, which, of 91 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,959 course I just lost my train of thought on my last Thanks. Sorry, 92 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:12,839 I tend to do it all the time. I do have got Especially since 93 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:15,879 COVID, it's been Yeah, and especially since they been since COVID, it's 94 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,759 been it's been bad with me. So what was I standing on before I 95 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,040 went off in the Choice? Well, well, okay, well we were 96 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,079 talking about polyploidy, and then I was asking you, you know, to 97 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,600 explain polyploidy for people that may not understand it. It's a new concept of 98 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,360 people because it's you know, you don't get it in animals, and I 99 00:06:31,399 --> 00:06:33,720 don't know, you know, my train of thought was so fucked yesterday I 100 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:36,639 had to leave my house to get anything done. I went and just I 101 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,240 just called a friend that was like, look, man, can I just 102 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,439 come lurk at your house and like draw it? They can't focus at my 103 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,839 got too much. Yeah, too many things in my going on in my 104 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,240 head. But but anyway, we're just we're talking about you know, Choice. 105 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,879 What's so remarkable about them? And and and what I wanted to ask 106 00:06:53,959 --> 00:06:58,120 you mainly was you know, the like the teddy beard Choia, which I 107 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,399 love that name because it's such a misnip and it's fucking when I posted something 108 00:07:01,519 --> 00:07:05,560 two weeks ago because there's this spot I go to near coofa And whenever I 109 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:09,639 go there, there's thousands of these plants that I realized, you know, 110 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,759 they're all the same. I mean you can see them creating new individuals just 111 00:07:13,839 --> 00:07:17,519 from those arms that break off probably in harsh desert winds and uh and you 112 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,000 know, and and root themselves into the ground. And realizing that those are 113 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,199 probably all the same genetic individual. Yeah, so that's what I want. 114 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:29,000 Yeah, that was why that was my main impetus for, you know, 115 00:07:29,439 --> 00:07:31,920 wanting to contact you about this. So what how do they so? How 116 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,040 do they do that? I mean, I guess that's the thing is you 117 00:07:34,199 --> 00:07:38,040 looking at these things because you you've looked at these really closely. How did 118 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,720 they how did this evolve? And what's going on? How many of them 119 00:07:41,759 --> 00:07:46,639 can actually reproduce? How many how many are just stuck in a in a 120 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,000 perpetual state of self cloning and will will never be able to reproduce your produce 121 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,519 fruits with seeds? Will they ever have a mutation because somatic mutation that evolves 122 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,000 where they can somehow suddenly produce fruits with seeds or what. Yeah, So 123 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,839 we can talk about the teddybear choya because I think that's such a great exemplar 124 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,839 of triploid and of course everybody knows it, you know, it seems like 125 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:13,720 everybody's got a story about, you know, getting one stuck to them. 126 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,279 Yeah, so we don't know where big Olovii. So teddy bear Choya is 127 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,120 cylinder Punty a big lov I. It seems to be one of the more 128 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:31,639 ancient choyas according to our genetic work, and so there is actually a deploid 129 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,759 form of cylinder plenty of big lov It actually used to be considered a subspecies, 130 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,120 which is Seribe. It's now considered its own species, cylinder puntya seribe, 131 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,159 and that's down in Baja California, Sore. And it looks exactly like 132 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,799 teddybear Choya, except it's like a shrub. It doesn't have that really distinctive 133 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:58,399 dark brown black trunk, and it's diployed and it produces viable seeds and everything. 134 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,360 All the other big Lovii, which you know, it's a very widespread 135 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:09,919 species, is mostly triploid. But what we have found, and this is 136 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,000 mostly Mark Baker's work, right, he's the chromosome kne He's the chromosome counting 137 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:20,519 king, is that you do occasionally find diploid big Alovii. You do occasionally 138 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:28,600 find diploid teddy bears that we assume can produce viable seed. Well, so 139 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,080 this is interesting, so even in triploids. So let's go back to why 140 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:39,919 triploids usually don't bang when you're undergoing myosis. Basically, it's a splitting of 141 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,960 the chromosomes. And so say you start out with twenty two. You know 142 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:50,200 it splits. You get eleven in each gammeat, basically eleven chromosomes if you're 143 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,799 triploid. If you end up as a triploid, when you try to undergo 144 00:09:54,919 --> 00:10:01,120 those myotic divisions, you can't divide an odd number of chromosomes even so you 145 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,639 end up with a big mess, right, and so you end up with 146 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,960 a lot of this. You know, you end up with pollen stuff that's 147 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,240 trying to be pollen or trying to be ovules, but it's got the wrong 148 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,720 number of chromosomes. So it just doesn't work out, right, It doesn't 149 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,320 develop, does not become a viable gammy. The same thing that happens with 150 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:20,480 the mule. That's why you can't. You can't. Mules are sterile. 151 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:26,080 Yeah, yeah, But the deal is that occasionally just by a random chance, 152 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,679 and it works out to be if it's just purely random, it works 153 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:37,519 out to be about one. Every one twenty six divisions, you will get 154 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:43,440 either an eleven chromosome gammy or a twenty two chromosome gammy, either of which 155 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,639 hold on really quick. I'm really sorry. Every one thousand and what is 156 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,240 it? Yeah, so if you have one twenty six, So it's basically 157 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:56,559 if you have you know, twenty two chromosomes, every possible way you can 158 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,720 you can divide that. It works out like every one bout in twenty six 159 00:11:00,799 --> 00:11:05,399 approximately divisions you can get either in an equals eleven or an equals twenty two. 160 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,559 No, I know, it sounds amazing, amazing, It sounds totally 161 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,360 it sounds totally crazy, and it's really confusing to begin with, but it's 162 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,000 actually really fun once you get the hang of it, because then you can 163 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,279 start like figuring out how how all these weird polyploids kind of came to be. 164 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:24,279 There's as how did you guys figure who figured that out? Every one 165 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,639 twenty six with you and Mark Bakers. Oh, that's just that's just yeah, 166 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,039 that's just that's just a mathematical thing of you know, if you have 167 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:35,440 twenty two chromosomes. Oh yeah, and they're just yeah, yeah, that's 168 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:37,840 just it. It's like, I don't know if it's a factorial thing or 169 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,240 whatever. A math is not my forte. But this is already known. 170 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:45,159 I mean, there's already known. It's based on twenty two chromosomes. Oney 171 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,240 twenty six is going to be Yeah, so this is this is what we 172 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:50,559 think is happening. Right, So every once in a while you get a 173 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,360 gammy that will work. And there are the thing about of course, you 174 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,960 know, cact they produce ship tons of pollen, right, so you've got 175 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,759 a lot anytime you've got and plus triploids, as you know from Teddy Bear 176 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:11,480 Choya. They because they clone to reproduce, they can spread real rapidly and 177 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:15,720 they can you know, dominate an area. So when they flower, even 178 00:12:15,759 --> 00:12:18,480 if they're putting out a ton of pollen basically, and even if most of 179 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:24,080 that pollen is not viable, some of it is. And so anytime you've 180 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,480 got you know, lots and lots and lots of opportunities and lots and lots 181 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,039 and lots of time, Eventually a couple of viable game meats are gonna you 182 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,279 know, match up so if you get an eleven and an eleven, you 183 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,879 know, if you get two eleven chromosome game meats matching up, then you 184 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:45,639 can get a diploid tendertoya. And this happens occasionally, and you know you'll 185 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:50,600 find them with seeds and so the even more interesting thing about this is that 186 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,080 we have tended to find these are marked mostly has tended to find these diploid 187 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:00,399 or these diploid big globis on the edges of the species range, which is 188 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,960 where they would most need that genetic variability to, you know, because they're 189 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,960 at the edges of their tolerance basically, so that's where it's going to behoove 190 00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:13,279 them the most. So that's what'sly is that it's yes, well that's the 191 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,279 idea. Yes, marginal environments, these more extreme environments, well not extreme, 192 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:24,480 but you know, more disadvantageous to what the species has evolved for, 193 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:28,960 right, right, And so if you're it's where like okay, it's kind 194 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,879 of like where the edge of being a triploid is beneficial, it's kind of 195 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:37,080 like okay, well now we're at the point where some genetic diversity would be 196 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:39,720 kind of nice, so you know there, yeah, so there is more 197 00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:45,480 that evolutionary pressure at those places. That being said, we've also found diploid's 198 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,360 you know, right smack in the middle of the range too. So I 199 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,519 have the feeling that I mean and I hope this is the case that as 200 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,759 technology improves. You know, I always joke when I'm in the field, 201 00:13:54,799 --> 00:13:58,120 I just want a thing that you can like point at a plant and it'll 202 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,200 tell you how many king chromosomes it's got, you know, because I have 203 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,799 the feeling that if we could do that, we would find a lot more 204 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:13,039 variation in chromosome number then we know right now, because right now, counting 205 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,000 chromosome is the canting chromosomes is a pain in the ass to ask, how 206 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,120 do you guys, So how do you guys do that? Like what is 207 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:22,840 the what's the procedure? So there's two ways you can do it. And 208 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:28,320 the way that Mark does it is through Holland grains. So basically you have 209 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:33,240 to catch the pollen grains before they actually turn into pollen. You have to 210 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:37,480 catch them at the correct stage of myosis where you can actually see all the 211 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:41,840 chromosomes because usually, you know, the chromosomes are just like all you know, 212 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:45,600 spread out in a big mess. So you got to catch them in 213 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,480 the right phase. And that's real pain, right because they only generally flower 214 00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:54,000 once a year, so to catch them, you gotta get them. You 215 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:56,960 got to get them when the buds are like really really tiny. And so 216 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:01,759 what we do in the field is go try to collect some tiny things, 217 00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:05,960 some tiny buds, and then you you basically kind of dive into the to 218 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:09,679 the flower with some real fine forceps and you pick out some pollen or some 219 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,759 like protopollen, I guess, and then you can stick it on a microscope 220 00:15:13,799 --> 00:15:18,120 slide, squish, squish, squish, and put some put a little bit 221 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:20,120 of dye on it. I think it's like Carmine, one of the real 222 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:24,720 standard red dyes, and you can take a quick look at it under the 223 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:28,600 microscope just yeah, you know, I forget what it is, like one 224 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:31,559 hundred x or something, and you can at least see if it's in the 225 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,960 correct phase of myosis to to count the chromosomes, and if it is, 226 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,039 you can stick that bud in a fixative solution to just like stop everything where 227 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:45,480 it's you know where it's at. And then he takes it back to his 228 00:15:45,559 --> 00:15:48,200 lab and he can do the full on chromosome, squash and count there and 229 00:15:48,679 --> 00:15:52,200 how is he doing? Is he with a microscope or what is he? 230 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,679 I mean, yeah, yeah, so it's a yeah. So it's just 231 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,440 like you know, you literally squish the microscope, slide in a vice to 232 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,159 read out those cells and squash those chromosomes out to make them as visible as 233 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,360 possible. And there's also you know some other you know, you got to 234 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,720 add more chemicals and do some more you know lab magic, what magnification, 235 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,720 what magnification. I think it's I think for the actual counting, it's I 236 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:19,240 want to say four hundred. It's either four hundred or a thousand. It's 237 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:25,440 probably it's probably an oil emergency. Should that's crazy that you could see it. 238 00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:27,559 I have tried it, and I have looked at like I've looked at 239 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:33,000 you know, photographs of the things, and I'm like, okay, and 240 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:41,399 kind of see yeah, And then of course it's exactly exactly and so and 241 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,360 of course with when you get into polyploids, it gets harder because there's just 242 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:48,240 more chromosomes. And then triploids you get these you get these weird things. 243 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,240 The chromosomes start to have aberrations and they start to look all weird during myosis. 244 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:56,159 So yeah, it's county chromosomes is a real pain. The other way 245 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,879 you can do it is through root tips. The advance root tips is that 246 00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:04,680 they're always there. You can always grow them. But the technique, which 247 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,680 I've only tried a few times, the technique for you know, just preparing 248 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,480 them and doing all that is more of a pain in the ass. It 249 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:15,440 takes you know, more chemicals, it takes more time. It's just it's 250 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,519 just a more annoying procedure. But you can do it. I mean, 251 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:21,200 this is a it takes a few days. I mean from going out in 252 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,680 the field actually driving back to the lab and looking at all this stuff. 253 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,920 I mean that it's a it's a it's a process like it takes a while 254 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,440 to get the data. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh it's a really 255 00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:37,640 long term process. Like for example, for our when we described the chucky 256 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,039 Choya cylinder point the truck on insis that was that was three years between the 257 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,319 time when Mark was like, hey that's a really strange looking Choya and when 258 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,720 we published it. So yeah, it's really long. It takes a long 259 00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:56,240 time. And the and the Chucky Toy study. I actually calculated this out 260 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:03,119 the other day required nineteen thousand and sixty five morphometric measurements. So what does 261 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,880 that? What's that mean in plane speed? Okay, So so I've been 262 00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:10,720 like, you know, rattling on about all this, you know, chromosome 263 00:18:10,759 --> 00:18:15,839 and genetic stuff. Mostly what I've worked on myself in the choyas is the 264 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,759 morphological stuff. This is like the old school stuff, but it's still absolutely 265 00:18:19,839 --> 00:18:26,160 necessary just to know, you know, the measurements on these things. And 266 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:33,400 the reason one reason it's important is for conservation of course, right because we 267 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,880 won't officially, nobody will officially protect plants unless they like have a name, 268 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,880 a real name. We know, we know that it's a real species exactly. 269 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:47,480 So in order to write those descriptions and know what's what, we need 270 00:18:47,519 --> 00:18:49,799 to know what the health these things look like, and you know, preferably 271 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:53,759 with measurements so that we can say this one's got you know, an average 272 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:59,319 of six spines versus four spines or whatever. So that's what the morphometric measurements 273 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:04,640 in the field are. So what we do when we're comparing choya species, 274 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,759 and this is a large part of what I've done, what my publications are 275 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:15,359 about is uh, basically circumscribing taxa within the within the choya is figuring out 276 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,519 what's what are good species, what are good subspecies, what aren't, And 277 00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:22,920 a lot of that has been the morphological measurements, So just going out there 278 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:29,400 measuring things like spine length, flower measuring habit shit out of these choyas. 279 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,680 So basically, so really give it these things a rectal exam, like like 280 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:34,319 kind of like I do when I'm trying to draw, Like I was drawn 281 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,400 blackbrush quote unquote Acacia last night, and I was like, oh, and 282 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,640 I've never really looked at this fucking plant before. What's cool? Yeah, 283 00:19:42,759 --> 00:19:45,119 yeah, well it's amazing, but I don't think i'd want to try to 284 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,480 dry it draw. It's a sort out. It took me like two or 285 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:52,039 three hours. Yeah, my kid was there, Like I just just like 286 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,400 I love it that. But sometimes you got to sedate them with television. 287 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,079 She watches that. She watches this show called Buba, which is like this 288 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,000 nonsensical you know, there's no language and it's just this guy, this like 289 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,640 creature like Runner anyway, But so you look, you look deep at these 290 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,000 these choices. I mean, I guess what what I find so fascinating about 291 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,920 all this stuff because I mean you talk to like lay people about Bonnie, 292 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,200 and that's mainly who I'm trying to reach. I mean, I know there's 293 00:20:18,319 --> 00:20:22,680 people, there's people in academic listen this. That's all good, of course 294 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,480 they know what I'm talking about. But I want everything explained for people that 295 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:27,839 are just getting into this like that. You know, I want more people 296 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,200 to see how fascinating this shit is. I want to get them turned out 297 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,119 of this. So what I find. You know, you talk wait people 298 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:38,279 about polyploidy, They're like, what like a chromosome's like, now, okay, 299 00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:41,680 now you have to go through meosis versus mitosis versus what is a GAMMYT 300 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:45,319 versus what? It's like, how does this stuff work? Polland you know, 301 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,640 but uh, but you know, it's so fucking cool because I mean 302 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,279 there's a story there is with everything when you know, when polyploid Yeah, 303 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:56,319 the story is, now you've got more genes in this genetic toolbox, you 304 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,960 got more opportunity to to overcome environmental stres I says, which can lead to 305 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,720 speciation, which can you know, like opportunities of Vikerians like a mountain range 306 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:10,319 popping up, or like the Baja Peninsula splitting away from the mainland Mexico. 307 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,880 You know, the kind of North America five million years ago. You know, 308 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,359 all this shit goes on. It's so fucking cool. But also just 309 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,000 to see, well, first off, mean plants are always mean anything, 310 00:21:21,039 --> 00:21:25,200 whether it's rattlesnakes or score whatever, it's always kind of intriguing. But also 311 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,599 to see a hillside of a colony of choi and be like, damn, 312 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,960 that's all the same thing. That's just a photocopy. That's like, you 313 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,039 know, five thousand photocopies. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I found 314 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:41,200 a I came across a population in the Macola Mountains in southern Nevada a couple 315 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:45,400 of years ago on a transmission line job I was on and it was just, 316 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,720 I don't know, it was incredible. It was just it spread over 317 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,319 multiple hillsides like as far as the eye could see. And I was I 318 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,359 told folks I was with through were all wildlife. I'm like, that's like 319 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,559 one organism. Yeah, totally. That the fuck. That's It's like the 320 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:04,640 desert aspen you know, yeah, or that that are malaria in Oregon. 321 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,359 It's like, motherfucker, the desert has a really mean, cool plant that 322 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,000 can that creates its own shade screen out of its spines, that can do 323 00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:15,240 that too, you know. So yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And 324 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,440 you know, I just, I really I love choyas for a lot of 325 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,279 reasons, but I just they demand their personal space and they demand respect, 326 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,480 and that's I just I like them for that. Yeah. Yeah, So 327 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:29,519 I want to talk about the new species you named and about all the diversity 328 00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:32,000 and the deserts. But first off, the clear things up. So when 329 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:37,920 you get a triploid species that produces a diploid, a three chromosome species that 330 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,039 can't generally can't reproduce, and then every oneenty twenty six divisions you get a 331 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:47,599 diploid cell, that's obviously, it doesn't mean the whole plant is diploid. 332 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,839 It means that pollen grain is diploid, right, correct, So that makes 333 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:56,119 it extremely you know that that means it's more of a almost more of a 334 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,759 r total you know, random chance that that pollen grain now has to be 335 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:07,519 carried by a beat to another stigma of a I mean yeah, and it's 336 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:11,480 got to meet up with another with a viable with a diploid Yeah, with 337 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:15,359 a diploid ovule God, that's fat one. That's either yeah. Yeah, 338 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,559 Okay, Now the odds are now, the odds are really increased now, 339 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:23,640 it seems. But again, you get a colony of five thousand or one 340 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,559 hundred thousand plants and you give it a million and a half, a million 341 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:33,599 and a half seasons. Yeah, yeah, So it's amazing stuff, amazing 342 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,400 stuff. Okay, So okay, so let's talk about all the different because 343 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,680 there's choyas on the coast, there's choyas in the brutal desert. They all 344 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,960 have those barbed spines, which makes people so wary of them. Understandably, 345 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,359 threw one at a friend once. Oh that was well, you know, 346 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:56,039 a couple of years earlier, me and another friend had been throwing them at 347 00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:57,200 each other. You know, it's like a joke. I think we were 348 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,960 I think we were hammered. This is before I quit drinking, and I 349 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,519 don't know, just my dumb ass, I just wasn't thinking. I threw 350 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:04,680 it at a friend we were playing around, and he was like, what 351 00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:08,480 the fuck, Like, that's you crossed the line. I draw the line 352 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,839 at, you know, at unconsensual pain. And I was like, oh, 353 00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:15,640 I immediately probably I don't know what I was thinking. But we've joked 354 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:22,200 about making like metal lacrosse sticks and then having like lacrosse tournaments with with Teddy 355 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,319 Bear Choya joints like each other. We're a helmet and safety glasses. Yeah 356 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,200 yeah, hell so okay, so, but so coastal choya is we got 357 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,720 We talked about big OLOVII, which is probably the most notable one. But 358 00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:38,119 what are some what are some of your other favorite ones that you've you've studied. 359 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,000 Well, of course the Chucky choya, you know, the one we 360 00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:45,920 actually described. That'll that's my baby, that's that's still like the pinnacle of 361 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,799 my you know, botanical career is describing a new choice. Yeah, so 362 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,559 let's talk about this. How did you come across that? And why had 363 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:57,680 nobody noticed it before? So this is this is a really cool kind of 364 00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:03,039 scientific and I've done a zillion presentations on this thing, so I've got this 365 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,799 thing down that So the way this came about was actually really kind of cool. 366 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,799 We were on this rare plant survey and the Mule Mountains, which is 367 00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:18,039 just west of Life, great place life, and but we were really close, 368 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,839 we were working really close to the border of the Chocolate Mountains. Aerial 369 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,039 gunnery range right where they drop all these gigantic bombs. So they had the 370 00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:30,000 company we were working for, you know, they did all this all the 371 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:34,680 safety stuff, right, So they had these guys come out every morning to 372 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:40,119 our you know, our tailboard safety meeting to tell us basically, don't touch, 373 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,279 you know, shiny objects you find on the ground that looked like they 374 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:45,839 could be explosive. And we're like, okay, well you really only had 375 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,680 to tell us that once, but no, they were required to come out 376 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,640 every single day to tell us this, but they could only work six days 377 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,839 a week. So on the seventh day, we didn't want to rest, 378 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,920 right because you're botanists. We were used to just like working until we dropped. 379 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,079 And they're like wait, So we're like, wait, you're not gonna 380 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,759 let us work, Like, we're not going to make any money this day 381 00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:10,519 because these guys can't come out and give us their thirty their thirty second spiel 382 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:14,440 that we've already heard ten times. So the company was like, all right, 383 00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:17,960 right, just come up with eight hours worth of botany work to do, 384 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,279 you know, and we'll pay for eight hours. We're like all right, 385 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,279 cool, So, you know, we did all our paperwork, were 386 00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:25,119 like caught up on all our paperwork, and then five of us just went 387 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,880 out and botanized. And so we're trucking along on the north side of the 388 00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:34,839 Chuckwalla Mountains and we start seeing this this weird looking kind of decumbent, ratty 389 00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:40,079 choya thing, and Mark is like, that's a weird looking choya. I 390 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:41,559 think I don't recognize that. I think that might be a new species. 391 00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:45,799 And of course he's always throwing out random bullshit like that, so the rest 392 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:48,480 of us were like, eh, whatever, it's just a weird kino cart. 393 00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:51,559 But which is the golden toya? Which is you know, widespread all 394 00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:57,000 over the Mohave and you know, Western snore And I think, and he's 395 00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,160 like no, no, So we're just you know, we kept trucking along 396 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,200 through the day, we kept seeing more and more of this stuff, and 397 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,039 he's like, man, I just think this is something weird. And it 398 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,799 was. This was May first, so it was like past most of the 399 00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:14,400 main flowering season for the choyas, so already he could feel it, he 400 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,480 could these things going on here right right. Well, of course, you 401 00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:22,079 know, he's got a zillion years of experience. We're working in toys. 402 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:25,759 The rest of us were like, yeah, whatever. So finally we get 403 00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:30,000 up this. We hiked up this one beautiful rugged canyon. The Chuckwalla Mountains 404 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,960 are just incredible. So we get up there and we found one plant in 405 00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:40,319 flower and it had this bright orange flower, which is not what golden toy 406 00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:45,200 as flowers look like. And it had these like pink red filaments on the 407 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:49,960 stamens and like a pink style, and so all of us were like, 408 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:56,559 oh, holy shit, he's right, this is something different. So then 409 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,440 for the next few years we just went out basically we try to see how 410 00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:03,720 much of this thing we could find, and we ended up one of the 411 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,119 first places we went was corn spring, also there in the Chuckwalla Mountain, 412 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,160 and we got there at night and we woke up in the morning and we 413 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:17,440 were just surrounded by this thing, by this mystery CHOI yeah yeah, spot 414 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:21,079 yeah, yeah. Oh yeah it is, except that right these days it's 415 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:26,359 looking like shit unfortunately, just like shocking drought. No, no, the 416 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,000 drought, just just drought climate change, and we can get into that later 417 00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:33,559 on because it's really fucking depressing anyway. So so we just like spent a 418 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,279 couple of years driving around and we measured this thing, of course. But 419 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,680 the thing is you can't just measure one species and say it's different. You 420 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:44,519 got to measure all the ones that are similar to it so that you can 421 00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:52,359 do those lovely multivariate statistical analysis population. Yea proved something different exactly exactly. 422 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,359 So this that was the whole big undertaking. So when I say we measure 423 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,200 a choi, a lot of a lot of people think, I mean, 424 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,720 we're counting the pop population. But no, we're taking like tape measures and 425 00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:11,559 digital calipers, and we measure fifteen vegetative characters and if there are it's really 426 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,160 yeah, And if there are fruits, then there's like a whole other I 427 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,839 don't know, seventeen characters that we measure on the fruits. So other. 428 00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:22,279 But then other than height and width of the plant, all of those characters 429 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:27,160 we measure three times each so that you can take an average. So that's 430 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,480 how you get So then the so the Chucki Choya study, we measured four 431 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:36,920 different species to compare it, you know, so we measured the Chucki Choya 432 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,519 plus three to compare it to plus the outgroup. Right, you got to 433 00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:44,880 have an out group if your statistics are going to be copasetic. It was. 434 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:51,599 So we had four species, fifteen populations across the entire southwest. Basically 435 00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:55,680 the range of all four of the species that we measured it was four hundred 436 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,000 and sixty five individuals and it works out to forty one measurements per plant. 437 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,119 And that's how you get the nineteen thousand and sixty five measurements. So you 438 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:11,519 guys actually took nineteen thousand separate measurements. Wow, yes, nineteen sixty five. 439 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:18,079 So the thing about this, it's so it's incredibly tedious and it's time 440 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,240 consuming, but the thing is it's well, first of all, it's cheap 441 00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:22,799 other than gas. You know, it just takes a couple of people who 442 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:27,799 are crazy enough to do the measurements and run the statistical analyses. But the 443 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,079 other thing is most people don't do this for cacti. I mean, people 444 00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:37,400 are starting to now, but as you know, cactus taxonomy is just like 445 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:45,079 a hoarder's attic of crap of old names, synonyms, you know, Norman 446 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:51,559 Newts, you name it, you know. So the reason we take all 447 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,599 of those data is because we can now say this is what this species is 448 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,240 like, this is its average height with this is its average everything. Here 449 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,440 are the eight zillion characters we measured, and here are there. Here are 450 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:11,160 their means. They're for all of these Yeah, and there measurements exactly exactly. 451 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,079 It's like just drown people in data. If they don't agree with you. 452 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:17,680 It's like, okay, you don't agree, you go take all this 453 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:22,480 data and see if you get different results. You know, That's that's how 454 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:25,279 science works. You got to you gotta have the data. You can't just 455 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:29,000 say that looks kind of different, it's a different subspecies. So did you 456 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:30,680 did you guys? Did you guys docular analysis on it too? Did you 457 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,240 get good you know, DNA data? You know what? That's one thing 458 00:31:34,319 --> 00:31:38,920 that is just killing me. We have not really done any genetic work on 459 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:44,799 the polyploid Toya, which so we you know, we undertook this. We 460 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,920 started getting into the DNA stuff of Choya in twenty sixteen with Lucas Majore, 461 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:55,119 who was then at the Desert Botanic Garden at Tempe. But we did the 462 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,160 study that we did with him was just on the diploid. So the publication 463 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:07,079 and two nineteen, which was the first whole plastome genetic analysis of a clade 464 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,720 in the cactus family. So that's pretty cool, But that was just the 465 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,960 diploids because we wanted to avoid as you know, of course cactus have all 466 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,880 that crazy reticulate evolution. They hybridize, so when you start looking at the 467 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:27,839 polyploids, of course the phylogenetic trees just get crazy. So we just restricted 468 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,160 our that first genetic analysis to diploids. Now, we extracted DNA from the 469 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,799 all the hybrids and all the polyploids, but that those that DNA hasn't as 470 00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:42,200 far as I know, I think some of it's been sequenced, some of 471 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,599 it hasn't, but none of it has really been like assembled and analyzed it. 472 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,920 And it just drives me crazy because I know we have it. So 473 00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:52,680 Chucklensis is polyploid, I take it. Do you know what it's sister too, 474 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:55,599 like what it may be evolved out of, or what it's what species 475 00:32:55,599 --> 00:33:00,519 it is closely related? Yeah, So because we don't really have the genetics 476 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:05,240 on it, we're not really sure. But the so the reason it's been 477 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,720 overlooked all these years is but is that it has been misidentified as cylinder Puontietti 478 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:15,599 kind of Karpa the very common golden tooia, which is also called silver choya 479 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:17,240 by the way, because you know, you get both forms golden and silver 480 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:23,759 spines. So it turns out that Muns and Kick collected this thing, collected 481 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:29,160 chucky back in I think nineteen twenty eight, Jepsum collected it. They all 482 00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:31,599 identified it as a kind of karpa, but they all noted that it has 483 00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:35,960 these weird flower colors, which I didn't even get into. I haven't even 484 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,559 gotten into so many topics yet. Yeah, it's the same thing, it's 485 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:42,759 just different, right, That's what people say about the tax sodium. Yeah, 486 00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:45,039 in Central Texas, they're like, oh, it's a dis the com 487 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:49,839 It's just a different one. It's different because it's evolved in a different habitat. 488 00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:52,839 It's a different fucking species. It's you know, and it has it's 489 00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:55,200 got sixty six chromosomes instead of twenty two, so it's got you know, 490 00:33:55,559 --> 00:34:00,000 a lot more color variations. Wait wait, wait, that's how are you 491 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,079 talking about taxtonium or about your choyaoya? Okay, right, right, right, 492 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:07,680 okay, what I didn't know anyone Okay, no, I know, 493 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:10,480 I know it was a stupid question on my part. Just no that's so 494 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:15,320 chuck Willensis has sixty six chromosomes. Yeah, so this is interesting. So 495 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:23,840 this gets into the whole correlation between various forms of dioec and polyploidy. So 496 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,039 I'm going to try to be a little more cognizant of people who aren't into 497 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:34,480 botany this time when I explain dioec. Yeah, I always just tell you 498 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,440 everyone knows weed. I just telling me a dioete like wheed. You know, 499 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,519 plants are either male or female, right, right, So like ninety 500 00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:46,679 percent of plant species are hermaphrodites. Right, They have flowers that have functional 501 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:52,599 male and female parts within the same flower, the opposite end of the spectrum, 502 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:59,119 like dioec, which means two houses. Ecius means house, and so 503 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,159 dioec means two houses. So you have separate male and female plants. You 504 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,800 have plants that produce just male flowers and plants that produce just female flowers. 505 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:15,159 But because plants can do everything, because plants need to have that variation, 506 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:22,599 they also do everything within the spectrum between hermaphrodism and full dioec. And in 507 00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:30,719 cactus anyway, we see this very strong correlation between having multiple sets of chromosomes 508 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:37,440 and having some form of separation of the sexes, and most a lot of 509 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,079 times it's not full dioec you know, you don't have separate male and female 510 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,960 plants. Now, in the chuck E Choya, the chucky is one of 511 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:53,840 a really interesting group of organisms plants that are what's called gynodioecious. And what 512 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,960 that means is that some of the plants have hermaphroditic flowers, right they have 513 00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:06,079 they have male and female functional parts on the flowers. But some individuals don't 514 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:10,920 produce viable pollen, which makes them basically female plants. And in the chucky 515 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,960 choya is about it's approximately a sixty to forty split. It's about sixty percent 516 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:24,719 of the individuals have hermaphroditic flowers and about forty percent have our female plants basically. 517 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,559 So this is really really cool. And another thing about chucky that goes 518 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:36,480 along with this is that it has this amazing flower color variation. Now, 519 00:36:36,519 --> 00:36:40,400 a lot of choya species have some flower color variation that they're kind of stuck 520 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,000 within one part of the range. Chuck E Choya the chucky has a range 521 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:50,320 all the way from you know, kind of the typical apuntioid yellow, you 522 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,320 know, greenish yellow, like like the golden Choya does all the way to 523 00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:00,480 this deep deep burgundy red with so the stick to sticks come out about you 524 00:37:00,519 --> 00:37:05,920 know, fifteen percent, or the yellow about thirty three percent are the really 525 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,360 you know, pretty dark red, and everything in between is like some gradient 526 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:14,920 of orange basically. And they also have the pink to red filaments on the 527 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,960 stamens and the pink to red styles. So Chucky, it turns out, 528 00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:25,119 is the one of four Choia species that have this entire suite of characters. 529 00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:30,480 They are hexaploid, they have sixty six chromosomes. They have this flower color 530 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:34,599 variation all the way from yellow to red. They have the pink to red 531 00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:39,760 filaments and styles, and yeah, so it's this combination. It's this like 532 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,360 I guess you'd call it a syndrome, right, it's like the it's all 533 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,199 I like to call them the sexy hexes, right. They're ginodioecious, they're 534 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:52,199 gynodioecious hexaploids. And it's a very elite club. And in fact, it's 535 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,719 become more elite recently with some really super cool research that's that's coming out of 536 00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:05,239 uv of Floris's lab at San Diego State University. Nividitha Ramados for her PhD 537 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:12,760 research has been was researching is researching cylinder Appuntia wolfii. And that's another that's 538 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,800 Wolf's choya. That's another one of the sexy hexes. And it occurs down 539 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:21,440 at Kumba basically, so right along Interstate eight. Uh, you go through 540 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,760 right through as you're going through Hakamba, down as you're descending into Okatio, 541 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:30,920 the town of Okatillo where all those fucking windmills are. You pass through the 542 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,599 type locality and it's just thick on the ground and it you know, it's 543 00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:37,079 the same, it's got that same set of characters. So Nivey has been 544 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:43,239 researching this for her PhD, and what she has found is that it's in 545 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,960 fact, strictly it's in fact actually dioecious. It's fully dioecious. So the 546 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:55,039 plants that look like they have hermaphroditic flowers are in fact not producing viable ovules. 547 00:38:55,119 --> 00:39:00,920 The ovules abort early on, and so it's only the so really quick 548 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,400 okay, so with with but with I mean, can you tell for the 549 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,679 for the Chuck Wallace that the produce you know, they functionally pistolate flowers functionally 550 00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:14,599 female flowers. Can you tell, I mean by looking at the palm that 551 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:17,719 they're like the pollen just doesn't You don't even have to lose. Yeah, 552 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,679 you don't even have to look at the pollen. All you have to do 553 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,519 is look at the anthers. The anthers are just these deflated little sacks. 554 00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:29,239 They're not all juicy. There's no pollen. So they don't even produce pollen 555 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,239 grains. It's not like they're producing pollen grains and it's just sterole. It's 556 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,280 nope, they don't produce pollen at all. Yeah, Chucky does not, 557 00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:38,119 does not, but that appears to not be the case now in Wolf. 558 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,280 It looks like the ones that look like they had hermaphroditic flowers. Those it's 559 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,000 not the pollen that's not that's sterile in this case, it's the ovules that 560 00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:50,880 are sterile, and that is a much harder you'd have to like dissect the 561 00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:54,360 Yeah, exactly, and that's that's what that's what Nibby did lots and lots 562 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,440 of them, and she's done a lot. So this is I guess a 563 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,559 form of aid. She'd call cryptic dioec. So it looks like it's you 564 00:40:02,559 --> 00:40:06,559 know, it's a plant that looks like it's got hermaphroditic flowers, but in 565 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:12,400 fact the obvioles are not viable. Now what I'm interested in this always, 566 00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:15,679 this just blows me away. Her research is so cool. She's done a 567 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:21,119 ton of other stuff and about sexual dimorphism in the wolf's Choya. That is 568 00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:23,719 just coming up with some amazing stuff. And I highly recommend everybody look into 569 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,719 her research. I don't want to step on her toes by, like, 570 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,079 you know, because I don't know how much stuff she walked out there, 571 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:34,280 but it's amazing. You should go look it up. But anyway, so 572 00:40:34,599 --> 00:40:37,679 a cryptic dioec seems to be what we've gotten wolf feed wolf the ie. 573 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,920 Now what I want to know, what I think would be an interesting thing 574 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,079 to look at if anybody wants to get into Choya. Is so after I 575 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:49,679 figure, after we heard about this, I was like, oh shit, 576 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,760 we better figure out if that's happening in Chucky as well. And fortunately I 577 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,400 had we had marked, of course, a bunch of all the plants that 578 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,239 we measured, and I had while we were while I was you know, 579 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,159 taking the statistics for the flower color stuff. I had marked these plants, 580 00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,039 and I had marked whether they were paul and sterile or not. So I 581 00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:09,719 had these things. Now Unfortunately, you know, my GPS only has like 582 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:15,039 a five meter accuracy, and so I wasn't able to like revisit every single 583 00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:20,360 thing plant plus in the interim between the time I took that flower data and 584 00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:22,599 when I you know, went out to look again after learning about you know, 585 00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:29,079 cryptic dioec and Wolfey, it's been shitty. I mean, the drought 586 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,639 has just absolutely hammered the Chucky toya population. Even I think you guys just 587 00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:37,159 got dumped on last year though, didn't. I didn't. No, it's 588 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,440 yeah, it's just a long no, not not out there, not not 589 00:41:40,559 --> 00:41:47,159 in not where the Chucky tooya populations are. So it's like it's that drought 590 00:41:47,199 --> 00:41:51,400 within a drought, you know. And then of course everything's just the heat's 591 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:57,239 just turned up on anything. Yeah, totally so so. But so I 592 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,440 wasn't able to do like a real scientific look. But I did find plants 593 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:07,519 that I had marked as hermaphrodites that did have good looking seeds. So I 594 00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:14,639 think Chucky is. We're pretty sure Chucky is actually gynodioecious. My question is 595 00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:19,800 is WOLFII actually dioecious or is this an example of, you know, if 596 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,320 we looked at if we looked at WOLFII in a good set of years, 597 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:27,360 because unfortunately, you know, NIVI had to do her her field work in 598 00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:32,519 the crappiest drought years in a really, really long time. And so I'm 599 00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:37,960 wondering, like, is that why the hermaphrodites didn't produce seeds in a good 600 00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:43,639 year? Would we actually see the hermaphrodites producing seeds because I just learned a 601 00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:47,360 couple of years ago that there are freaking salt bushes atroplex that can change their 602 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:53,480 sexes based on environmental conditions. Good Yeartically, like, how does know to 603 00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:57,199 turn on and off whether it's going to produce well, you know all those 604 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,360 I think all those parts are kind of like, you know, they're linked, 605 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,519 and so it might just be well, I'm sure it's incredibly complicated, 606 00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:07,760 and I have no idea about the Really is that a thing you think? 607 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,079 Is that like? Is that some sort of it? Just I know, 608 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,920 because I know there are a lot of polyploid atroplexes, but this was just 609 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,159 a thing where I came across this, and I was like, holy shit, 610 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,719 plants changing sex. This is great. Yeah, so I just I 611 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,159 don't know anything about it, but I kind of like I'm like, wow, 612 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,760 well, in a good year, would the woul the hermaphrodites start producing 613 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,159 seeds? And it's another one of those things like the like the diploid versus 614 00:43:32,159 --> 00:43:35,440 triploid big o lov I where it's like, God, if it were just 615 00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:38,400 easier to figure that out, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if we 616 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:45,119 see craziness. You need like a machine that just plugs into a phone, 617 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:47,599 you know, yeah, can it can? An It's like I hope we 618 00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:52,280 get like full genome sequencing that can occur in like two minutes. You know, 619 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,199 you plug this, I know, I know, just get up and 620 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,599 like stick a little probe on the plant and like, okay, this this 621 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,719 choice is three quarters in Brecada and one quarter leptoc. We're too busy trying 622 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,760 to send rich guys into space. So yeah, yeah, you know, 623 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,480 well at least we sent it. At least we sent the fume to the 624 00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:13,840 bottom of the ocean. Yeah. Man, that was God, that was 625 00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:15,599 I don't even get me started. Holy shit that Yeah, yeah, I 626 00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:21,639 know, anyway, Yeah, it was kind of it was kind of funny, 627 00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:23,320 but anyway, So okay, So, so, I mean that's why 628 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,679 I tell people look at flowers all the time, is it's there's so much 629 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,199 Every flower is a puzzle. There's so much shit going on when you look 630 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:30,039 at one of these things. Like you can look at a flower and be 631 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:34,119 like, wait, those answers don't look juicy. They look kind of it's 632 00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:37,880 producing stamens. I mean there should be you know, but there's nothing in 633 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,639 those answers. They look shriven, but they're not, you know, or 634 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,960 like that what's going on? That stigma doesn't look right, it looks weird. 635 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,880 It's what's so this? And how does that? You know? And 636 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,360 then of course the question is there's a story there, how does that evolve? 637 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,760 Like is something selecting for that? Yeah? So you know, yeah, 638 00:44:52,800 --> 00:45:00,400 so we So there's a general hypothesis about why this correlation between poly floidy 639 00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:06,480 and it's dioec or sub dioec occurs. And I actually had to look this 640 00:45:06,639 --> 00:45:10,119 up yesterday because it had been a long time since I went through that offis 641 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,679 and I didn't want to screw it up. So basically, the hypothesis is 642 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,880 this, You're you're a diploid organism, right, You're doing your thing, 643 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,880 and then one day, whatever reason, there's an environmental pressure you you you 644 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,079 produce a polyploid. Right, you turn into a polyploid. But you or 645 00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:30,239 you you know, you're you're gammy to meet up with somebody else and they 646 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:37,239 produce a polyploid zygote that grows. Does it makes it nice? But the 647 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,199 problem is now you've only got one polyploid, right, And so I was 648 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,960 reading, I was rereading in our chucky paper about uh, you know this 649 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,440 this hypothesis, and the idea is that if you only have a very one 650 00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:53,559 or a very small number of organisms, it either has to reproduce by cloning 651 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,599 right like the like the taggertoia does, or it has to have and this 652 00:45:58,679 --> 00:46:02,400 is a quote, a decrease in self incompatibility. And I was like, 653 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:07,079 a decrease in self incompatibility. That's kind of a you know, that's kind 654 00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:08,960 of twisted idea. And I was like, wait a second. So what 655 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,519 they're saying is if there's only one of them, they got to be able 656 00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:17,199 to fuck themselves in order to reproduce. They've got to be self compatible, 657 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,840 right, because there's nobody else. There's nobody else who's a polyploid. There's 658 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:28,840 nobody else that can read. So a polyploid can't can't, uh can't fertilize 659 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,199 a diploid and vice versa. Well, it can, there is, there 660 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,079 is a chance, but it's a much it's a decreased chance. It's not 661 00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:38,519 the same as a diploid and a diploid exactly exactly. So it's just it's 662 00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:45,039 a it's a significant decrease in you're in the polyploid's ability to back cross. 663 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,440 Now, that is a way that absolutely can happen, and I'm sure it 664 00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:52,039 does. And you know, you find these hybrid swarms of choyas where you've 665 00:46:52,079 --> 00:46:55,360 got like you've got two parent species and hybrids and then every kind of possible 666 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,679 background. Right, it's like me, it's like Jeff Goldblum said, life 667 00:46:59,679 --> 00:47:05,320 finds away, right exactly exactly right. So the idea is you've only got 668 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,719 like one or a few polyploids, so they've either they've either got to be 669 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,400 able to fuck themselves, right, so they've got to be self compatible for 670 00:47:12,599 --> 00:47:19,280 themselves and produce viable seed, right right exactly. So initially the idea is 671 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,039 that initially you have this, you have to be able to self cross, 672 00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:25,559 and so you can kind of you can increase your population, increase your population 673 00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:31,519 of polyploids. At some point that self that selfing is going to lead to 674 00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:37,079 inbreeding depression, right, and so then you're going to have an evolutionary pressure 675 00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,119 to be like, whoa, we better separate ourselves somehow. And a way 676 00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:45,920 to do that is to make is to have some of the plants quit producing 677 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,119 pollen or you know, maybe in the pace of quit producing oules, you're 678 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,039 forcing out chymes, get too many recessive alleles creeping up, just like you 679 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:59,639 know, the Spanish royalty and fifteen hundreds, you know, exactly exactly, 680 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,320 so they start dying off. And so now it's like, okay, we 681 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,840 can't. I mean there's a selection against that now, yes, exactly, 682 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,480 So it's become an obligat outcrosser. So I mean, that's what's so fucking 683 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,199 cool about choices, like love them or hate them, You got to admit 684 00:48:13,199 --> 00:48:17,719 they're good at what they do. Man, They're so good of these things 685 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:22,000 that nothing wants to fuck with. Nothing in the desert wants to fuck with 686 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,599 hikers, golfers, coyotes have Alina, nothing wants to I mean everything. 687 00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:29,400 Once you meet a choia, you don't forget it, you know, Yeah, 688 00:48:29,559 --> 00:48:31,320 except the thing is, you know I and I of course, the 689 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,960 main thing I get when people find out that I study choice is like, 690 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,239 why the fuck would you want to study such a terrible, evil, awful 691 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,039 plant? And I'm like, you know what, Choyas did not evolve for 692 00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:46,159 human convenience, all right. They evolve to survive. They evolve to survive 693 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,880 in a really crappy environment, and they do a really damn good job. 694 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:57,280 And they feedish ton of pollinators too. Exactly. So the wildlife, the 695 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,280 wildlife, uh, what's what's the word? I want? The fits? 696 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,000 The wildlife of Choya is just enormous. I mean, you go a wander 697 00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:08,159 around out there. You see birds nests in choyas all the time. Birds 698 00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:12,639 love to build their nests. The pack rats, you know, they they 699 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,400 build these enormous castles out of you know, especially teddy bear Choya joints and 700 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,199 in the buckhorn Choya that drops them. That's a cool one. In Baja 701 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:28,239 what the ship that roby motherfucker, it's got those dangling ropes. Those I 702 00:49:28,519 --> 00:49:31,400 love those they're huge fucking trees. Man. I remember seeing like, you 703 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,719 know, be out looking at the like right on the border of like Baja 704 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,840 s Baja, California, see these huge colonies of munds joy grown with that 705 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:45,079 weird Euphoridia lamelli and pakisiris pringly. Yeah, I'm a big I'm a big 706 00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:49,800 fan of munsi. It's one of my favorite plants. And instead, okay 707 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,360 you there, Okay, we cut out for a seconds, Okay, So 708 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,039 so okay, so we were talking about cylinder punch of munsieye and some of 709 00:49:55,079 --> 00:50:01,079 the other uh, the Baja ones. Yeah, Baja is just insane. 710 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,119 I mean, you know, you talked to Peter just the other day and 711 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,639 how wild and crazy the mammalaria slash Kacimia went in Baha. Clender Puntia did 712 00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:14,360 the same thing, and it kind of serious as well. I mean, 713 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,840 Baja is just like this incredible hot spot of cactus diversity, as you know, 714 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,840 as you know, I'm sure you've talked a ton about on your shows, 715 00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:25,559 right, like tons of choices. Yeah. Yeah, So it turns 716 00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:29,840 out that this, you know, I mentioned earlier that there's about you know, 717 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,840 my personal list of of of real taxa in the Choya is about fifty 718 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:39,519 three taxa, and the Arizona is the state in you know, the US 719 00:50:39,599 --> 00:50:45,800 that has the most. They've got sixteen species. California has got like twelve 720 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:51,760 or thirteen. Baja has twenty eight. It's like, yeah, Baja blows 721 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,199 everybody away as far as choya diversity goes. So they've got the choya with 722 00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:00,400 the best name too, slender punch. Yes, and let's talk to let 723 00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:07,920 you know one thing you know about Molesta. It's the only known octoploid choya. 724 00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:12,599 So it's got eight copies of it's got it's got eighty eight chromosomes. 725 00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:15,840 Yeah and wait, wait octoploid you'd think eight, but obviously we're talking eighty 726 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:21,519 eight. Explain that, everybody. So when you say he say it was 727 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:25,119 tex eployd too, it's sixty six. Yeah, okay, so the choi 728 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:30,199 is so basically octoploid is the let me get I'm getting tangled here. Okay, 729 00:51:30,199 --> 00:51:35,679 So normal for cactus is deployd. That's twenty two chromosomes. So tetraploid 730 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,199 is if that doubles, that's that's forty four chromosomes. Hex eploid is sixty 731 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:44,519 six. And then octoploid is eighty eight. So I don't know if that, 732 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,320 you know, makes sense multipation wise, but that's that's what those numbers 733 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,559 are called. Okay. So it's factors, it's it's yeah, it's an 734 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,159 exponential fact okay. Okay. And then of course you've got triploids and pentaploids 735 00:51:54,199 --> 00:52:00,840 to the odd numbered ones. So so Molesta cylinder funty Molesta is the highest 736 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:06,320 ploidy choia we know of, and it is also gyno diotius. It also 737 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,239 has that flower color variation. It also has the pink to red styles and 738 00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:15,800 filaments it seems to reproduce. I mean, as you know you've been down 739 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:22,519 there, it drops joints like crazy, and I think the spines on those 740 00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:25,159 are just I remember just seeing the sides of those things. You're amazing with 741 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,480 Packetcormis you know, the antiari elephant. Try just the sun coming up behind 742 00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:35,880 it and like lighting up extremely long spines. I mean, and they're just 743 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,320 like these hollow sheets. It's I remember taking an arm home once because I 744 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,599 was like our little branch and I was like, I just this is such 745 00:52:40,599 --> 00:52:45,079 a fucking hilarious stick of a plant. I want to grow it. Yeah, 746 00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:49,880 yeah, but it holds it holds the honor of being the only Yeah, 747 00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:52,239 it holds the honor of being the only choia that's ever put a spine 748 00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:55,920 all the way through the bottom of a hiking boot of mine. I've got 749 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,199 photos of my legs just ripping blood from interact. But to go back to 750 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:05,159 gyodasia, So that's when a plant is. It can be up. It 751 00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:08,639 can produce perfect flowers, and then it can produce functionally pistol flowers that don't 752 00:53:08,639 --> 00:53:13,760 produce it. But in different individuals. So as far as we know, 753 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,639 an individual that is hermaphrodite in one season is going to stay is always a 754 00:53:17,639 --> 00:53:22,000 hermaphrodite, and a plant that's female is always female. Now, of course 755 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,480 if we actually looked at them every single year, we might find something different, 756 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,880 but for now, that's that's what we think. Individual plants, not 757 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,840 flowers, not the correct not the same flowers, different flowers on the same 758 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,360 plant, right, Yes, yes, that's correct. And also with the 759 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:43,079 flower color, one plant will have just one color of flower. You don't 760 00:53:43,119 --> 00:53:46,199 get the variation within one plant, although that would be super cool. Yeah, 761 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,239 So like one plant will have orange flower, you know, all orange 762 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,079 flowers and they're all basically the same hue. So yeah, so yeah, 763 00:53:54,119 --> 00:53:58,280 that's a good that's a good thing to clarify for people. It's not individuals 764 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,280 that are varying by flowers, or it's not flowers that are varying. It's 765 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,320 the individuals, whether they produce pollen or not. Right, but so so, 766 00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:07,639 but I mean either way, I mean, these these things everywhere. 767 00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:12,039 Get one here in South Texas, cylinder punch a lepto callis tasa heel. 768 00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:16,519 It's oh you want to talk about bang and Leptocollis is the biggest banger of 769 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,159 the choyas. All right, okay, what do we mean here? What 770 00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:25,480 are we talking about? What I mean is that celender punti Eleptocollis will cross 771 00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:31,480 with any Oh, very slutty. It is very slutty, very slutty. 772 00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:39,320 It is extremely slutty with this hybridize with anything or what pretty much. So 773 00:54:39,559 --> 00:54:44,239 basically, Leptocollis is a real weirdo. And I tend to say that about 774 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,440 all the choya species, but Leptocollis is like even for the weirdos, it's 775 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:52,480 weird. So Leptocollis is seems it's basically it seems to be one of the 776 00:54:52,519 --> 00:54:57,760 most ancient choyas, and it is genetically it comes off on its own branch 777 00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:06,039 like all by itself on our phylogenetic tree and the and if you look at 778 00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:12,000 it, it looks extremely similar to Pereskiopsis porter eye. And it grows like 779 00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:15,719 Popsis porterai as you've seen it. It climbs up through other you know, 780 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:21,239 it climbs up through other shrubs. You know, it crawls along. It 781 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,519 can be upright, it can grow upright, but it likes to grow like 782 00:55:23,599 --> 00:55:30,320 under things. And the fruits of Leptocolis and Pereskiopsis they're both. One of 783 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:36,039 the weird things about the Leptocolus and the reason it gets called Christmas choil, 784 00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:44,079 which just drives me crazy, is that it produces those bright red round fruits 785 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,599 exactly, and it's the only choya that does that. And all of those 786 00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:52,000 kind of characters that kind of pull, you know, make it more similar 787 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,360 to the more to the really ancient cacti, the Pereskiopsis, the ones that 788 00:55:55,400 --> 00:56:00,599 are like barely even considered succulent yet you know, they have secular leaves, 789 00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:02,880 but they're not stem succulents. Yeah, So would you say some of the 790 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,400 choy is that I mean, because some of these choias produce really boring fruits, 791 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,079 not leptikolus, of course, what makes it notable, But they produce 792 00:56:09,119 --> 00:56:13,800 fruits that just kind of stay green. They don't. But again there's no 793 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,480 selection for dispersals since a lot of them aren't really producing seeds in those fruits 794 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:21,679 anyways. So that why why make them conspicuous? Why try to wave down 795 00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:23,719 a bird to come eat it and disperse it, shut out the seed if 796 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:29,719 you're not producing you know, good seed anyway, right right, And it's 797 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:31,920 the thing. Was like the chain fruit choia, the cylinder punti of Folgeda, 798 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:37,239 like in Arizona, the ones that form those really long dangling chains of 799 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:44,880 the of the green spineless fruit. Those were those were pretty sure evolved to 800 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:49,599 be dispersed by the giant like the giant ground sloths they used to be around 801 00:56:49,639 --> 00:56:52,079 and the plies to seed or whatever, because they found those fruits in the 802 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:57,800 copra lights, they found them in the fossilized shit. So they're producing good 803 00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:02,400 seed probably then, well most of them don't. So Foljeda sylender punty of 804 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,920 Folgeda, the chain fruit choya is an interesting case, it's one of the 805 00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:12,360 it's one of the species that does. It can be either diploid or triploid 806 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,519 in different populations, but it's actually a more even split. So I think 807 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,519 sixty six percent of the chromosome counts that have been done on that one are 808 00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:24,800 diploid and thirty three percent are triploid. So some of the some of the 809 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:30,079 populations are basically clonal, and some of them are sexually reproducing. But in 810 00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:36,960 either case, seems like most of them don't produce viable seeds in those fruits. 811 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,880 But they do, they will grow like crazy. If you if you 812 00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,079 you know, you look at the ground around a cylinder punty of Folgita, 813 00:57:44,119 --> 00:57:46,760 and it's always surrounded by what I call the army of clones. Same with 814 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:52,119 the Bigelovii and the coast Choya, the cylinder punty of Prolifera, which is 815 00:57:52,159 --> 00:57:55,159 also triploid. You get that little army of clones. You'd think that, 816 00:57:55,199 --> 00:57:58,519 I mean, but you'd think that in order for it to be selected, 817 00:57:58,559 --> 00:58:00,920 for to have a relationship with something like a you know, extinct MegaFon of 818 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,800 there'd have to be those fruits would have to be reproducing somehow, wouldn't they 819 00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,960 I mean, can the fruits root themselves somehow or they do? Yeah, 820 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,119 the fruits do. The fruits on pretty much any cactus will because every aerial 821 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:21,639 on a cactus stem is a can produce a root. I mean they're basically 822 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,880 areals are basically like a pile of marraw stems, you know. So, 823 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,880 and Folgita seems to be really good at it. I mean, I've got 824 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,800 pictures of folgative fruits that i've you know, kind of picked out from under 825 00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,599 a plant, and it's a fruit with a big, old root grown out. 826 00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:38,280 So what's the thinking that that a sloth would be, you know, 827 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,239 bringing these fruits back and then drop a couple along the way, and then 828 00:58:42,239 --> 00:58:45,440 they would root, and then that would of course spread the species and give 829 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,000 it a bigger Yeah. And you know, it's it's it's hard to say 830 00:58:49,039 --> 00:58:52,320 when it's in the past, but it's like possibly, especially since we have 831 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,039 such an even distribution or close to even distribution between the diploids and the tryploids. 832 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,079 You know, maybe they used to all be diploid and we're getting spread 833 00:59:00,079 --> 00:59:04,840 worth producing viable seeds and getting spread around by the ground slaws, and then 834 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,599 after the ground slaws went extinct. You know, maybe that wasn't as beneficial, 835 00:59:07,679 --> 00:59:10,599 and so you know, some of them went triploid. You know. 836 00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:15,400 It's it's that thing where with time and paul and enough, you can get 837 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:21,519 all any all kinds of crazy stuff and combinations and you know, distribute various 838 00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:27,760 distributions across the landscape. So it's amazing stuff. But I think we were 839 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,800 talking about Leptocolis and how much it loves to bang. So it's weird. 840 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:37,800 It's interesting that Leptocolist comes out so separately and it seems to be so ancient, 841 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:42,320 you know, in form and genetics, and yet it is so willing 842 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,400 to cross with any other choya. And I don't know if that's because it's 843 00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:49,519 just it's simpler because it's been you know, I don't know, maybe it's 844 00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:52,480 looked, you know, locked into something that worked. There's all kinds of 845 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,039 crazy ideas you can come up with. But anyway, the fact is that 846 00:59:55,079 --> 00:59:59,920 it crosses with everything pretty much except you know, of course, the tr 847 01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:02,559 reploids that aren't going to cross with much of anything. Anyway. God, 848 01:00:02,599 --> 01:00:06,280 I wish, man, I wish something. It would be so cool. 849 01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,519 I mean, it's just such a great case study to use to see how 850 01:00:09,079 --> 01:00:10,840 I like I was thinking. I was just thinking, like it would be 851 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:15,519 so fun to try and you know, hybridize leptocols of everything. But then 852 01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,039 at the end of the day, you've got to plant no one wants and 853 01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:21,639 you can't plant that, you know, like you put it in a lab 854 01:00:21,679 --> 01:00:23,800 in a greenhouse somewhere, like you know, your fucking good luck. You 855 01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,800 know, you got to like wear shielding to go in there. But yeah, 856 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,960 yeah, so so a really a common one species, one choya species 857 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,880 of hybrid origin with Leptocollis as one of the parents is one called kliny e 858 01:00:38,159 --> 01:00:43,280 Client's Choia, you know, great common name, and I used to think 859 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,599 that that was really rare. So that's a cross between Leptocollis, which of 860 01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:52,599 course is like this scr scraggly little real thin stemmed. It's the thinnest stemmed 861 01:00:52,679 --> 01:00:58,760 choya species, with one spine per aerial one long spine per aerial, although 862 01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,760 that varies a lot, like every thing about Leptocolis varies a lot. It's 863 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:06,840 it's one parent and then the other parent is cylinder punty imbricada, which is 864 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,280 the tree choya that you find all over Colorado, New Mexico. So this 865 01:01:10,519 --> 01:01:15,079 big giant ass choya with a big chunky stem. So it's like you're crossing 866 01:01:15,679 --> 01:01:19,559 you know, Abbott and Costello or whatever, Laurel and Hardy. But you 867 01:01:19,599 --> 01:01:22,360 know the big, the big huge guy and the and the little tiny, 868 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:28,320 skinny guy. You know that they call Mexico. Yes, oh no, 869 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,960 no, that's that's versa color I think they call. I think cane choya. 870 01:01:32,119 --> 01:01:37,559 I see imbercada called cane choya a lot. It's the one that's all 871 01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:39,360 over New Mexico. I think it should be the state plant in New Mexico. 872 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:45,639 For some it's great and it's got those it's got those magenta those those 873 01:01:45,679 --> 01:01:50,800 magenta purple flowers. People. It's a real pot. It's actually for a 874 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:55,519 choya. It's one of the most popular ornamentals because it's very it's big, 875 01:01:55,639 --> 01:02:00,559 it's statuesque, it's you know, and it's got these incredible flower and then 876 01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:07,920 it makes these these spineless fruit that are bright yellow and they contrast really nicely 877 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:14,000 against the greenery of the plant. Especially there's an there's the Sonoran Desert subspecies 878 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:20,440 of Imbracada has these like really nice, tightly compact white spines and so the 879 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,639 con and it tends to have that purplish coloration that you get in some cactus 880 01:02:23,639 --> 01:02:29,760 stems, especially when they're stressed. Some choy yeah exactly, the batalins, 881 01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,719 which but some choyas just kind of naturally produce more of those, and that's 882 01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:37,559 one that does that. So you get this like beautiful yellow purple contrast. 883 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:44,239 So Spinosi or the subspecies Spinosia, is actually pretty popular in cactus gardens as 884 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:45,679 like a you know, big main sort of thing. You know, I 885 01:02:45,679 --> 01:02:51,280 got ambricotta in my garden, actually my feet. Yeah, there's a lot 886 01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,480 of in Texas. That's where I got this one. Yeah, yeah, 887 01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:59,920 so that so oh I can I could talk for an hour about just imbrac 888 01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,719 because it turns out that's a whole species complex. There are like kind of 889 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:08,159 currently five they're currently five named subspecies of Imbricata, and there's probably at least 890 01:03:08,199 --> 01:03:12,000 a couple more hiding them. I mean, it's got a huge distribution, 891 01:03:12,119 --> 01:03:15,400 so there's probably it grows in so many such disparate and varying environments. There's 892 01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,800 probably a ton of different factors selecting for them in each one of those places, 893 01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,599 which is what's so fucking cool. About the choi is one of the 894 01:03:22,599 --> 01:03:25,440 other things. They're the biogeography here. I mean, there's there's a story. 895 01:03:25,519 --> 01:03:30,639 It's just it's such a great poster child for thinking about these concepts in 896 01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:34,159 general. You know, not to mention the last what the fuck's been going 897 01:03:34,159 --> 01:03:37,079 on in North American you know, dry land and desert environments for the last 898 01:03:37,079 --> 01:03:39,880 two million years. So that's what I'll ask you too. When did these 899 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:45,000 things When did the non lepto callists choyas really start having their heyday? Like 900 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,079 when did they start you know, banging more and getting out there. So 901 01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:52,440 it kind of it kind of followed the same track as a lot of that 902 01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,480 we've seen in a lot of the other cac gui, you know, the 903 01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,840 choya is. We think, so this has all come from our twenty nineteen 904 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:05,239 study, which also included a you know, biogeographic history reconstruction thing. The 905 01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:11,679 choice, as we think, came about that the genus cylinder Apuntia originally somewhere 906 01:04:11,719 --> 01:04:18,159 in the like ten the thirteen fifteen million year ago range. Yeah, yeah, 907 01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:21,239 I mean the first ones, and so they're kind of in the Sonoran, 908 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:26,639 Chihuahuan desert interface area. Yeah, and then they and then like a 909 01:04:26,639 --> 01:04:30,239 lot of the others, they expanded kind of north and west as the climate 910 01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:35,199 dried. You know, you got all these glacial glacial interludes and all this 911 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:40,840 kind of stuff, climate going up and down. But basically they spread west 912 01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:45,119 and north, and they're kind of like so they're you know, they're they're 913 01:04:45,159 --> 01:04:49,559 one of the Apuntiads. They're in that subfamily along with the Prickly Pairs that 914 01:04:49,679 --> 01:04:54,920 has done so damn well in the you know, western parts of Mexico and 915 01:04:55,000 --> 01:05:00,679 the United States. Oh, like, I love the group, so does 916 01:05:00,719 --> 01:05:04,039 everybody else? Haste him? Person That's one I can't I can't do grew 917 01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:09,679 Sonia, man. But I just you know, I personally think that when 918 01:05:09,679 --> 01:05:14,360 climate change has killed off all the other Apuentiads, that Grewsonia is going to 919 01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,239 take over because those things grow. I mean, I'm sure you've seen him 920 01:05:17,239 --> 01:05:20,840 down in like the Kohila, you know, just out there growing on the 921 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:27,760 nastiest narsist soils. Yeah, and Baja and here. I mean when when 922 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:30,199 when the habitats, the habitat has gotten so fucked where I live in South 923 01:05:30,239 --> 01:05:34,920 Texas, I mean, and we deserve that too. Human civilization deserves grew 924 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:42,679 Sonia deserve along with everything got coming to it continues to fail. I don't 925 01:05:42,679 --> 01:05:49,039 think grew Sonia deserves humanity, but I was gonna say because because we used 926 01:05:49,079 --> 01:05:53,039 to get where I live, this fucking epic habit that I remember coming here, 927 01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:57,480 and even in twenty fourteen is recently as twenty fourteen before the buffalo grass 928 01:05:57,639 --> 01:06:01,480 and the fucking guinea grass and the cleiberg bos them moved in and was active. 929 01:06:01,519 --> 01:06:05,280 It would intentionally moved in, like people like ranchers were actively seating this 930 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:10,719 fucking garbage, which is probably very important where it's native nine thousand miles away, 931 01:06:10,719 --> 01:06:13,480 but here it's you know, but either way, you know, there 932 01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,679 were these huge clumps of just the kind of serious penthe loofists looking like green 933 01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:23,079 green medusa heads on these barren these barren muddy clays beneath the canopy, a 934 01:06:23,119 --> 01:06:28,119 misky, huge colonies mammillaria hyde and these the fair between feral pigs, invasive 935 01:06:28,159 --> 01:06:31,599 grasses, and then just good old bulldozing for you know, the human sprawl 936 01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,920 tumor that this car dependent shit that Americans love so much, you know, 937 01:06:36,039 --> 01:06:41,519 dollar generals and giant parking lots and walmarts and targol. You know, now 938 01:06:41,599 --> 01:06:45,840 nothing's left except Grewsnia. The feral pigs won't touch Grewsnia. So you get 939 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:50,960 these carpets of this fucking, incredibly impossibly mean plant that probably looks gooding it 940 01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:55,079 flowers, but it's just it looks like hell. Like it looks like something 941 01:06:55,119 --> 01:06:58,760 out of hell. It really does. The they're ugly. They're ugly as 942 01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:00,000 sin, And that's kind of one of the I like them, you know, 943 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,960 I just I like the there. They call them dog choice. I 944 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,760 call them the underdog choys, which by the way, they're not actually they're 945 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:10,559 not you know, sylender Puntia, so they're not choyas, but close enough. 946 01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:14,320 Yeah, But I I just love those things. And seriously, down 947 01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,960 there in like Coopah, one of my jokes I don't even know how funny 948 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,360 it is, is that like if you on a quiet day down there, 949 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:24,920 you can like hear new Grusonia species popping off. Just they just seem to 950 01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:29,000 be that seems to be like their center of diversity. There's it's insane down 951 01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:35,719 there. Well, I think they're they're so our our our biogeographical things showed 952 01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:40,800 that they're younger than the choya is, so they're like they come in around 953 01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:45,119 like nine million years, so they're there's still even more evolutionarily active than the 954 01:07:45,199 --> 01:07:49,320 Choyas are even I think. And then and of course this is all kind 955 01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:54,559 of me talking out of my ass, right, but it's still stuff to 956 01:07:54,599 --> 01:07:57,400 think about, you know. Yeah, yeah, And so I think it's 957 01:07:57,599 --> 01:08:00,719 it's it's like the mammal area and the time of serious it's like the younger 958 01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:04,159 a genus is, the more it's still like, I don't know, figuring 959 01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:09,760 itself out, you know, and trying to exploit new habitats and figure out. 960 01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,440 Of course, now they're all trying to figure out this climate change stuff, 961 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,279 which doesn't seem to be going very well for the choils. Yeah, 962 01:08:15,319 --> 01:08:18,359 but some of these stres what what is cool? You know? And that's 963 01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:20,840 another thing is that you know, you look at like big Alobai for instance, 964 01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,479 like that. A lot of other cact i do this too. They 965 01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:28,119 use those spines as a shade screen. They're a debtora. We eat them, 966 01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:30,640 but they kind of help shade it out too. So I mean, 967 01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:35,640 you you experience a reduction in photosynthetic capacity, but you're also not going to 968 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:40,640 die. So yeah, yeah, anything in the desert. It's all about 969 01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:45,520 water conservation. Like anything you can do to reduce your water losses is good 970 01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:50,079 as far as so like the Mojave, Like the Mojave is I mean, 971 01:08:50,159 --> 01:08:54,600 it's always, not always, but it's been a desert for a long time. 972 01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,079 But still it was at least in the plasto scene in some of these 973 01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:01,840 you know, interglacial periods, it was it was a little bit milder, 974 01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,359 wasn't it. Yeah, yeah, it was more temperate, and you had 975 01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:10,960 the you know, you had those inland lakes like what Lake Manly where Death 976 01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:16,399 Valley is now, and Owen's Lake and and then this whole chain of lakes 977 01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,199 through through the Mohave Desert, and the Mohave is where I've done the vast 978 01:09:20,279 --> 01:09:24,960 majority of my work in the twenty six years now that I've been doing field 979 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,680 work in the desert, and so I love it. I think of the 980 01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:32,399 Mohave as like my desert. Yeah yeah, desert. Yeah, desert gets 981 01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,800 way more rain than Sonora gets. Yeah. Well, it's it's interesting because 982 01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,439 it's it's kind of like the intermediate desert, right, So it's like not 983 01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,159 as cold as the Great Basin, but it's not. You know, it's 984 01:09:42,199 --> 01:09:45,039 not as hot as the Sonora, and it doesn't get that bi modal rainfall 985 01:09:45,159 --> 01:09:47,880 like the Sonoran does, where you get both the winter and the summer. 986 01:09:48,079 --> 01:09:51,359 It gets a little bit of the summer rainfall sometimes, but so it's kind 987 01:09:51,359 --> 01:09:56,000 of like in between. And then of course Chouaman is just that's that's crazy. 988 01:09:56,279 --> 01:10:00,920 That's cold and limestone. And I love the Shuahen Desert. I want 989 01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:03,600 to spend a lot more time there. Yeah, it's remarkable. Yeah, 990 01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:06,960 but the probably did used to be Yeah, it did used to be a 991 01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:11,920 lot more temperate. So but do you think so that's well, I guess 992 01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:13,439 that is what I want to ask too, is I do you think these 993 01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,720 things began to thrive more as the climate started to dry out more like they 994 01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,520 had an advent, They had an advantage that a lot of other plants didn't. 995 01:10:21,319 --> 01:10:24,760 Yeah. Yeah, I think they stuck around when a lot of a 996 01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:29,560 lot of other plants didn't. And we we've actually we have one choya species 997 01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:35,680 that seems to be kind of exemplifying that it's a rare choya. This is 998 01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:42,439 the blue diamonds Choia, which occurs in southern Nevada and northwestern Arizona. It's 999 01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:45,840 cylender plenty of Multigeniculata. And I've done a lot of work that one of 1000 01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:49,640 the companies that I work for has has done a lot of surveys over the 1001 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,119 past three years for Clark County, you know, because of course Clark County's 1002 01:10:54,159 --> 01:10:58,039 got Vegas, so they've got more money than God, and they funded these 1003 01:10:58,119 --> 01:11:01,920 rare plant species. And the blue diamondchoya has been one of the targets and 1004 01:11:02,079 --> 01:11:10,319 where we have found it is mostly on peaks. So but we have packrat 1005 01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:18,399 fossil midden remnants of Multigeniculata from south of Yuma, Arizona. That's crazy. 1006 01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,000 So this thing has actually been so I mean, that's the thing. When 1007 01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,760 you find a species of the narrativesribution, you can assume, oh, maybe 1008 01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,640 this's just you know, there's either one of two options generally, right, 1009 01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,439 like this thing just speciated and it just hasn't spread yet, or you're looking 1010 01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:36,079 at a relict stage exactly. So we're pretty sure at this point that Multigeniculata 1011 01:11:36,239 --> 01:11:42,359 is a relict species, and it's been like retreating up higher and higher as 1012 01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:45,680 the climate has dried. Now, another really interesting piece of evidence that we 1013 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:50,279 found for this just in the past couple of years is a hiker. It 1014 01:11:50,359 --> 01:11:54,640 was like one of those friend of a friend of a friend deals. Somehow 1015 01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:59,039 we got word that there was multigeniculata on top of freaking hark of Our Peak 1016 01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:03,079 in the middle of Arizona, so right kind of right in between the Pacrat 1017 01:12:03,119 --> 01:12:08,680 Midden fossil fossils in south of Yuma and where it now occurs up in north 1018 01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:13,119 northwestern Arizona and southern Nevada. So of course we went hiked up to the 1019 01:12:13,119 --> 01:12:16,439 Park of Our Peak, which was not the most fun hike I have ever 1020 01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:25,399 done in my life a long shot. There's not really much of a trail, 1021 01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,920 and coming back down we took lot, we took lots of we talked 1022 01:12:30,039 --> 01:12:33,880 lots of wrong ways coming down. As long as you're doing it on mushrooms, 1023 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,600 it's fine, you know. Yeah. No, I was definitely not 1024 01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:41,960 on mushrooms. I wasn't even drunk because that because I had quick drinking by 1025 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:45,199 then, so that was that was a great benefit. But anyway, we 1026 01:12:45,239 --> 01:12:47,880 got up there and sure enough, but there is a is a great population. 1027 01:12:48,039 --> 01:12:51,560 The plants looked really good, but they're all within one hundred meters of 1028 01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:59,960 the peak, and how disjunct is that how from the from gosh, well, 1029 01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:04,840 the nearer I think the nearest one would be probably the Black Mountains, 1030 01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:10,640 which is along Highway ninety three. I mean, I'm totally taking a wild 1031 01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:15,560 guess here, but it's at least one hundred miles I think in either direction. 1032 01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:18,560 It's probably more than that. I don't my Arizona distance, you know, 1033 01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:23,359 mental mass, what goes in my California. So what do you think 1034 01:13:23,399 --> 01:13:27,039 this is just again like a refuge at at peak or was it maybe brought 1035 01:13:27,079 --> 01:13:30,920 there by a bird by accident or something, or I mean, compared considering 1036 01:13:31,079 --> 01:13:35,399 what we have found in Clark County on those surveys where we have pretty much 1037 01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:40,439 always found the stuff that we found has pretty much been up at the peaks. 1038 01:13:41,399 --> 01:13:45,319 It's and with the packrat, you know, the pack rat fossil stuff. 1039 01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,960 I it seems to me like it's a pretty good chance that this used 1040 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,840 to be a lot more widespread and has just retreated to a refugia. Yeah. 1041 01:13:54,239 --> 01:13:56,560 And so now, of course my question is like, well, how 1042 01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:00,960 many other peaks is it on? Right right? Yeah? Piece that no 1043 01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:04,720 one goes on except Matt Brooke exactly exactly Hey, Matt, Yeah, go 1044 01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:08,560 out there, like, tell me if you find it. Find it on 1045 01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:11,720 any other peak we tried to get up to We tried to get up to 1046 01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,239 halcohola peak after we had gone up to Harkavar, but we got a flat 1047 01:14:15,279 --> 01:14:18,119 tire like three miles from the top, and it was it was stormy and 1048 01:14:18,319 --> 01:14:23,840 not not a good situation to try to hike six miles that way. Man, 1049 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,159 you are still out there in a field. You're not fucking around. 1050 01:14:26,199 --> 01:14:28,800 You're not one of these armchair you know, botting this. You're actually out 1051 01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:33,239 there. Yes, you're fierce man. Unfortunately, in the past two years, 1052 01:14:33,279 --> 01:14:38,800 I've lost the I've lost the preservative effects both of alcohol and of estrogen. 1053 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,039 So my body in the past couple of years has been like, uh, 1054 01:14:42,119 --> 01:14:45,079 yeah, I turned fifty. Yeah, I turned fifty a few months 1055 01:14:45,079 --> 01:14:47,760 ago, and it's like it's like my warranty expired or you know, and 1056 01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:53,880 all the parts start kind of falling apart. It's just it just gives the 1057 01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:59,800 illusion of exactly exactly so. But yeah, so actually I'm really trying to 1058 01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,039 because my you know, things are starting to kind of fall apart. I'm 1059 01:15:03,039 --> 01:15:08,159 really trying to steer my career towards teaching, because apparently I have all that 1060 01:15:08,279 --> 01:15:14,000 there's there just aren't that many desert botanists, and there's all this fucking construction 1061 01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:16,560 going on out there, and there's all this monitoring that needs to be done 1062 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,399 and rare plant surveys that need to be done, so we know what we're 1063 01:15:20,159 --> 01:15:27,680 bulldozing. And you know, so most of the people that I work with 1064 01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,359 and that I that I you know, have dealt with in the course of 1065 01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:35,000 my career are fabulous people. They're wildlife people and they know basic stuff about 1066 01:15:35,039 --> 01:15:39,159 plants. But when it gets into the details, when it comes to rare 1067 01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:43,159 plants, surveys, weed surveys, vegetation mapping, you know, there's not 1068 01:15:44,079 --> 01:15:46,760 there aren't a lot of people that are experienced in that, And so I 1069 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:51,119 like to I love nothing more than to yammer about plants as long as people 1070 01:15:51,199 --> 01:15:56,199 will listen to me. And so I figure and I love giving talks about 1071 01:15:56,239 --> 01:15:59,720 plants. You know, I think of myself as like the choy of mouthpiece 1072 01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,760 based. You know, I go out and I do lots of presentations talking 1073 01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:08,479 about choia, and so teaching seems like a natural thing for me to move 1074 01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,520 towards. And also it's kind of I think it's I think it's kind of 1075 01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:15,199 genetic too, because teaching was a big part of my dad's career as well, 1076 01:16:15,239 --> 01:16:17,039 and when I a lot of times I started and I started. My 1077 01:16:17,119 --> 01:16:21,960 dad taught e m T, the e m T certification classes in Sacramento where 1078 01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,640 I grew up, at one of the community colleges, and I started going 1079 01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,319 to his classes when I was real young. So I saw some gruesome ass 1080 01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:34,680 slides Jesus fire fire service. Yeah, well you're you're good at it too. 1081 01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:38,279 I mean you're you're passionate, and you're you're fun to talk to, 1082 01:16:38,399 --> 01:16:42,000 which is yeah, yeah, you don't sound like you're on some of these. 1083 01:16:42,039 --> 01:16:45,279 There's nothing worse than getting I had a geology teacher when I was just 1084 01:16:45,359 --> 01:16:48,079 taking them, taking classes for ships and giggles at City College in San Francisco. 1085 01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,119 Really nice woman, but god, she sounded like she was on fucking 1086 01:16:51,159 --> 01:16:54,479 kueludes. Man. I'm like, Jesus Christ, did she just get dosed 1087 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,760 before she came? You know? It was And then my then I had 1088 01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,800 another teacher that taught oceanography and when she'd get into the geology stuff, she 1089 01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,079 taught the same thing, but she was super like boom boom, bom, 1090 01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:05,439 I want you to learn this, and they just fucking awesome, like super 1091 01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:09,920 passionate, like aggressive, but in a good way, you know, like 1092 01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:14,319 you're you're like, you know, like a fucking crazy Italian relative from you 1093 01:17:14,359 --> 01:17:16,800 know, New York or Chicago or something like this. Crazy. I had 1094 01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,800 a bios I had a biostats professor like that to Doug Deutschmann, great guy 1095 01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:25,359 at San Diego State, Oh my gosh, and he was the most incredible 1096 01:17:25,399 --> 01:17:29,600 professor. But man, by the end of the class, your brain was 1097 01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,159 just like throbbing with information in your hands, or your hand was cramped from 1098 01:17:32,159 --> 01:17:36,039 taking notes where they're getting mad at you for not being excited as they are. 1099 01:17:36,079 --> 01:17:41,760 They're like, don't you see don't you fucking understand what I look at 1100 01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:45,720 this? You know, like zoom out. Sorry, yeah, yeah no. 1101 01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:48,279 But that's and that's the teaching thing is interesting too, because it's like 1102 01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,119 I know, I won't I won't be I wouldn't be able to deal with 1103 01:17:51,159 --> 01:17:55,239 people who didn't want to be there. So the idea of like actually teaching 1104 01:17:55,239 --> 01:17:57,760 at a college or something, it's like, I don't think I want to 1105 01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:00,840 do that. Yeah, I was who I was, it's more of a 1106 01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:02,680 training thing I want to do. I want to do like training where I 1107 01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,159 teach people how to you know, do the botany stuff. Yeah. I 1108 01:18:06,199 --> 01:18:10,520 was talking to Jim when I was talking to Jim Mouse, uh yesterday when 1109 01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,279 we were going out to look at Lofaffer, an astronaut, and I was 1110 01:18:13,319 --> 01:18:15,199 talking to him and he was, you know, he was telling me about 1111 01:18:15,239 --> 01:18:16,800 teaching at UT and he was saying, you know, a lot of the 1112 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,359 kids that would would come, like every once in a while he get a 1113 01:18:19,359 --> 01:18:23,399 passionate student, but a lot of times people just had to take you know, 1114 01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:26,479 inter the beginner classes because oh, they're like going into medicine, you 1115 01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:29,119 know, And why are they going into medicine? Is it because they're passionate 1116 01:18:29,159 --> 01:18:30,680 about anatomy and the human body? Not even some of the time. No, 1117 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:33,640 they just want to make money. They want the fucking sports car and 1118 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:35,960 they make mansion and the fancy hand me, you know, all this stupid 1119 01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:40,159 shit. It's their parents want them to be. Their parents are like, 1120 01:18:40,239 --> 01:18:42,640 you know, we really will do the dude will be really proud of you. 1121 01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:45,319 It's like God, that fucking you know, that passion makes so much 1122 01:18:45,359 --> 01:18:49,000 difference. You know when you're just so like you go to sleep thinking about 1123 01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:51,760 this stuff, You're still like, how does this? And that's when those 1124 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:56,159 are the people that produce like the coolest work too, you know. Oh 1125 01:18:56,239 --> 01:19:01,000 yeah, absolutely, And I was just incredibly fortunate it in many many of 1126 01:19:01,039 --> 01:19:05,079 my professors, but especially I took you know, my plant taxonomy class at 1127 01:19:05,119 --> 01:19:14,000 San Diego State from Mike Simpson, which was just a text. Yeah. 1128 01:19:14,039 --> 01:19:16,399 I tell people that I would go, I would listen to Mike Simpson read 1129 01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:19,079 the phone book. He would make it interesting. He is just he is 1130 01:19:19,159 --> 01:19:24,840 just fabulous and he is incredible. In fact, other students, other people 1131 01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:27,359 who have had him as a teacher and I have joked that we should start 1132 01:19:27,399 --> 01:19:30,680 a Mike Simpson fan club. But anyway, not only did I get to 1133 01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:33,279 take it from Mike Simpson, I took it in spring of nineteen ninety eight, 1134 01:19:33,319 --> 01:19:39,159 which was one of the best El Nino years ever, and so it 1135 01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:45,560 was just incredible and his enthusiasm just absolutely like sent all of us through the 1136 01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,760 roof. And it was the best class I took in college. And it's 1137 01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,520 yeah, it's I mean, I was already, of course really into plants, 1138 01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:54,840 but that was just like, oh man, I could just I want 1139 01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:58,760 to just key plants for correct for anybody listening saying, who the fuck is 1140 01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:03,319 Mike Simpson. Mike sim Sin is a fucking wizard of plant taxonomy and systematic 1141 01:20:03,319 --> 01:20:05,520 I'm always talking about. People ask me, well, what book should I 1142 01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,239 get? I say, I start with botany in a day. If you 1143 01:20:08,239 --> 01:20:11,039 just get into this, you know that guy's at rbalist. But he's got 1144 01:20:11,199 --> 01:20:14,880 he's got a great concept there. They shouldn't say, but he's a fucking 1145 01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:16,960 good elpol or whatever his name is. Good guy. But you know, 1146 01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:21,439 but it's really introductory concepts. Basically, look at flower morphology to group plants. 1147 01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:25,199 That's how we group plants. Turns out, that's what ends up being 1148 01:20:25,239 --> 01:20:29,199 most in line with what the DNA tells us. But when you're ready to 1149 01:20:29,239 --> 01:20:31,000 move on, move on to Plant Systematics by Mike Simpson, and that is 1150 01:20:31,039 --> 01:20:34,680 a fucking book you'll use for the next ten years. If not lower I 1151 01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:38,039 mean, I still pull that book off the shelf and I'm like, damn, 1152 01:20:38,079 --> 01:20:41,319 I mean it's got everything. It's got order by order, by family, 1153 01:20:41,359 --> 01:20:45,840 by family by explanation of how to collect their barium specimens, explanation of 1154 01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,800 what you know molecular uh systematics, say, is all that stuff it's such 1155 01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:54,479 a it's such a seminal piece, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And 1156 01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:58,720 also all that stuff's available online. The figures, all the figures and stuff 1157 01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,720 are available online, I mean, just open for everyone. And I'm just 1158 01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:05,439 like, he's not like, yeah, you know what I mean, he's 1159 01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:10,800 not like an academic Ivory tower gatekeeper motherfuckers, you know, he's really yeah, 1160 01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:14,640 no, And you know that's That's one thing I've that's always amazed me 1161 01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:17,960 about botany in general is how few assholes there are, Like I mean, 1162 01:21:18,079 --> 01:21:23,319 I think compared to most fields, it's you know, you you run into 1163 01:21:23,359 --> 01:21:28,359 the occasional asshole. And some of these younger kids, I think they're still 1164 01:21:28,399 --> 01:21:31,800 young though they're young and dumb and addicted to the internet smartphone. So maybe 1165 01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:34,079 there's hope for him, they have an excuse, but no, totally with 1166 01:21:34,239 --> 01:21:39,159 like, at least I've never I rarely meet like, you know, professional 1167 01:21:39,239 --> 01:21:43,079 botanists or people in academia, like older people in academic who are dicks. 1168 01:21:43,079 --> 01:21:45,880 Like, they're always pretty down and humble and down to explain stuff and talk 1169 01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,359 about stuff, yeah, and love to talk about their work, you know, 1170 01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:53,600 and so it's like opportunities like this where you're just like, hey, 1171 01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:55,880 you want to talk about toils as long as you want, Like hell, 1172 01:21:55,960 --> 01:22:00,279 yeah, right, sign me up. Usually you know you get the blank. 1173 01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,800 Yeah yeah. It's just it blows my mind. I mean, like 1174 01:22:03,159 --> 01:22:06,439 people, you know, I'll hear people. You always hear the thing well, 1175 01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:11,479 people are always find you know, animals more charismatic than plants, Like 1176 01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:13,399 well, really, who I don't fucking I mean, I go to a 1177 01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:15,680 zoo, I say my daughter to a zoo, or like I watch a 1178 01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:19,279 wildlife like man, it's kind of interesting. But the plants are I'm always 1179 01:22:19,279 --> 01:22:21,319 looking at the plants in the background, Like those are the things that are 1180 01:22:21,359 --> 01:22:26,680 easy to study. There's way more diversity in plants. They're all at each 1181 01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:30,199 you know, you could each different species in a genus that super species rich 1182 01:22:30,239 --> 01:22:33,399 is adapted to a different uh environment. You'll find species that are adapted to 1183 01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:38,640 like the more you know at least in North America, the more music Southeast 1184 01:22:40,119 --> 01:22:43,199 or and then the same species, you know, the same genus, different 1185 01:22:43,199 --> 01:22:45,560 species will be more adapted to that it'll have evolved in a desert. I 1186 01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:50,159 mean, you can see the difference how the environments selected for these differences. 1187 01:22:50,159 --> 01:22:53,760 I think that shit is so cool. You don't get that with animals. 1188 01:22:54,039 --> 01:22:58,399 Yeah, And I tell I tell people that. I tell people one of 1189 01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:03,359 the main th things that I love about botany is that it is infinite. 1190 01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:08,119 You are never going to run out of questions to ask, You're never going 1191 01:23:08,199 --> 01:23:10,840 to run out of cool things to look at. You're never going to learn 1192 01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:15,399 run out of cool things to learn. Like, you can go a bazillion 1193 01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:18,720 different directions. You could. Whatever your interest is, there's some there's some 1194 01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:26,520 plant that will match your interests. You know, diversity, diversity just blown 1195 01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:30,520 right, Yeah, download that fucking poster off, you know plant Gateway dot 1196 01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:32,720 Com, forward Slash poster to Angelo sprintfy log and a poster. Just start 1197 01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:35,880 going through that. You know, you see you think you're done with everything. 1198 01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:40,439 Find a family you haven't seen before. I guarantee there's a five dozen 1199 01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:42,880 of them, and go, you know, go figure them out. They're 1200 01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,800 so cool, understand And a lot of times, a lot of times it's 1201 01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:49,359 just like small My dad calls them flashbangs in teaching, right, you know, 1202 01:23:49,399 --> 01:23:53,399 you just throw in these little factoids that make people go, WHOA, 1203 01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:56,880 what the fuck? That's crazy? Like so my friend, my friend Ian, 1204 01:23:57,279 --> 01:23:59,239 you know, he recently told me he's like, oh, yeah, 1205 01:23:59,239 --> 01:24:03,439 Okatio's more closely related to blueberries than they are to cacti. And I was 1206 01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:06,119 like what, and they're like, yeah, sure enough. They're at there, 1207 01:24:06,439 --> 01:24:11,880 the okatillo or in the Eric Hayley's they're in the same order as blueberries. 1208 01:24:12,199 --> 01:24:15,960 And I was just like, wow, that's amazing. And then like 1209 01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:18,439 a I don't know, a while back, Steve Matson, who's this incredible 1210 01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:25,640 California botanist who just puts up these fabulous pictures on Flora CalPhotos and he's a 1211 01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:30,520 super super cool guy, you know. He he posted something a while back 1212 01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,720 and he's like, yeah, the the hares on dasio Cloa pulchella, the 1213 01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:36,439 fluff grass, the you know, the little grass you see all over the 1214 01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:43,119 Mohave and stuff. He's like, those hares are actually exuded salt crystals. 1215 01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,760 They're like strands of salt crystals. And if you look at him under a 1216 01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:50,199 hand, and I was just like what. I was like, I've known 1217 01:24:50,239 --> 01:24:55,359 this species for twenty six years and I've never looked at it under a handle 1218 01:24:56,199 --> 01:24:59,640 A tricombe at least, like is there a hair at the base somewhere there 1219 01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:02,439 what I don't even know, but I was just like, yeah, and 1220 01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:05,399 so of course the first thing I did and next time I saw one was 1221 01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:09,720 look at it Handlin's and I was like, oh my god. So it's 1222 01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:12,880 stuff like that in Botany. You know. It's just like you come across 1223 01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:15,319 these facts and they don't even have to be like complex facts. They don't 1224 01:25:15,399 --> 01:25:18,800 have to be that complicated. They're just like wow, yeah, And you 1225 01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:23,279 see enough of those and you learn to stop taking everything for granted to you 1226 01:25:23,359 --> 01:25:26,319 learn to look, yes, sir, And I mean, being being interested 1227 01:25:26,319 --> 01:25:29,520 in Bondy has made me way more attentive to the world around me. It's 1228 01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:32,079 made me a way more human being and like, you know, a humble, 1229 01:25:32,880 --> 01:25:36,680 you know, humble and somewhat more chill person too. I mean, 1230 01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:42,199 it's just such a pleasant distraction from all the other bullshit. Absolutely, yeah, 1231 01:25:42,239 --> 01:25:45,000 absolutely, it's totally. It's totally one of the main things I use 1232 01:25:45,119 --> 01:25:46,880 for mental health. It's just like, oh, shit's going to shit, 1233 01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:50,520 let's go out in the garden. Yeah. People don't. People don't. 1234 01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:54,479 People don't understand that, man, it really is. It sounds you know, 1235 01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:58,319 people, there's all there's numerous research papers on how quote unquote nature. 1236 01:25:58,319 --> 01:26:00,760 I don't even like that word, you know, because it implies this idea 1237 01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:02,560 that we're separate and apart from it. But you know, there's all these 1238 01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:06,520 papers on how nature is calming and good for mental and emotional health. I 1239 01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:10,840 mean, you don't even need that. I mean you everybody should be allowed 1240 01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:14,840 to experience that, I think, not not allowing people to whether it's because 1241 01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,000 of poverty or whether it's because they some kid grows up in a cul de 1242 01:26:17,079 --> 01:26:19,840 sac suburb world, a habit that's been destroyed, and not allowing you know, 1243 01:26:20,159 --> 01:26:25,439 those people to experience that, not allowing anybody who experience that is inhumane, 1244 01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:27,760 like that should be a fuck. You talk about rights that should be 1245 01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:30,119 a right like we Yeah, and how are they going to care? How 1246 01:26:30,159 --> 01:26:33,239 are they going to care about, you know, things in the outside world 1247 01:26:33,239 --> 01:26:36,000 if they don't know about them, right? Yeah? Yeah? Well, 1248 01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:39,960 well, I mean I want to ask you a couple more things. I 1249 01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:43,920 want to ask you about a very rare species of cylinder punch. It Fromnuevo 1250 01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:46,159 Leone called uh fuck, I just lost it? Where was it? Yeah? 1251 01:26:46,159 --> 01:26:49,640 There we go, cylinder punch of antao joensis. Oh, Yeah, 1252 01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:54,039 that's a cool one. I love that species. So this is a narrow 1253 01:26:54,039 --> 01:26:57,720 distribution I'm looking, you know, compared the sun. Yeah, so yeah, 1254 01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:02,439 okay, So the deal with antio Oensis. You probably people are probably 1255 01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:08,479 much more familiar with one of its close relatives, cylender punya Ramo sisimo, 1256 01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:12,880 which is the sometimes it gets called pencil choya, the diamond choya. It's 1257 01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:15,479 all over the mahave. It's it's a yeah, and it's got a it's 1258 01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:20,279 got pretty narrow stems and it's not as narrow as Leptocollis, the big banger, 1259 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:25,439 but it's got pretty narrow stems, and it has these flat tubercles. 1260 01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:28,279 You know, most choyas they've got like the pretty obvious, you know, 1261 01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:32,439 pattern of bumps on the along the stems. In ramo system, they're flattened 1262 01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:36,520 against the stem and then those tubercles have kind of an outline that it's kind 1263 01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:41,680 of a shield shape or diamond shape. So people know that one. But 1264 01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:46,039 antio Joensis is extremely similar looking. But like you said, it's got that 1265 01:27:46,239 --> 01:27:56,720 very very narrow distribution around quatricienegus uh down in uh is it kobia? Yeah? 1266 01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:59,359 Oh totally, man, I need to oh man, I need to 1267 01:27:59,359 --> 01:28:02,520 spend so much time there. I've spent exactly one night in Quatro Siangas and 1268 01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:08,359 I was like not enough. Yeah. So, so it's the anti jojo 1269 01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:12,920 and this is right there. And then there's a third species in that same 1270 01:28:13,199 --> 01:28:16,680 clade that also looks extremely similar that I'm sure you've seen, which is cylinder 1271 01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:23,479 of puntiot celender of Puntia tessajo in Baja in northern Baja. And they all 1272 01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:28,279 look very similar and they all come out genetically in the same clade. It's 1273 01:28:28,319 --> 01:28:32,239 like this nice little separate type group genetically, so it's pretty cool. And 1274 01:28:32,319 --> 01:28:36,800 they all they all have those narrow stems, flattened tubercles, one to zero 1275 01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:41,680 spines for aerials, so it's not the spines are long, but there's not 1276 01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:45,279 like as many of them as in a lot of other choya species. So 1277 01:28:45,319 --> 01:28:48,279 the other pick one uh yeah, yeah, I mean they've all got the 1278 01:28:48,399 --> 01:28:54,000 they've all got those, yeah. And another interesting thing about that clade is 1279 01:28:54,039 --> 01:28:58,439 that they make a bird like fruit. So most choias either make kind of 1280 01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:03,560 like spineless smooth fruits or they make some spiny, you know, dry spiny 1281 01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:09,479 fruits versus fleshy, spineless fruits. I get that right, dry spiny versus 1282 01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:14,199 fleshy, spineless fruits. But there are some weird variations like Lepticolis, which 1283 01:29:14,199 --> 01:29:18,560 has the bright red and the Ramo system of clade, which has the makes 1284 01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:24,520 these like burr burr type fruits. They're kind of similar in shape and size 1285 01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:28,239 to the leptic fruits, but they're not that bright red and they're just covered 1286 01:29:28,239 --> 01:29:32,800 with like these these little bristly spines. They're not like real hard, hard, 1287 01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:38,560 rigid spines. So it's a really interesting little clade. Are the fruit 1288 01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:43,479 Does it look like the fruits are going for a dispersal by something or I 1289 01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:46,319 would expect so because I think they would be really good at sticking to stuff. 1290 01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:53,720 So so those trees, but in a different sense, not for necessarily 1291 01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:58,479 food inadvertent, right, just like sticking sticking to stuff. Yeah, like 1292 01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:00,199 like a lot like most of the spiny fruited choyas, do you know, 1293 01:30:00,279 --> 01:30:04,239 they just stick the things. So this is an interesting that that set of 1294 01:30:04,279 --> 01:30:09,960 three species. It is a really interesting example of a phenomenon that we saw 1295 01:30:10,039 --> 01:30:13,199 a lot in our when we did our you know, our genetics study. 1296 01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:18,680 And that's a case where you have closely related choya species that have diverged into 1297 01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:27,800 completely different deserts. So Ramo sisima, anti Johoensis, and Tasaho are all 1298 01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:32,760 each other's closest relatives, but Antiohoensis is strictly in the Chouahuan desert, Tasaho 1299 01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:38,439 is strictly in Baja, and Ramo sisima is pretty much strictly in you know, 1300 01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:45,399 the mojave in western Sonoran. Another even more extreme example of that is 1301 01:30:45,399 --> 01:30:46,800 is one that blew us away. I mean, it really surprised us to 1302 01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:51,479 the extent that we like, you know, extracted DNA from more specimens and 1303 01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:57,199 like retested it to make sure it was true. Is that a kinocarpa that 1304 01:30:57,279 --> 01:31:02,079 golden choya is which is all over the mohabi is most closely related to this 1305 01:31:02,359 --> 01:31:06,960 crazy ass choya over there in your neck of the woods in Texas called Davisii 1306 01:31:08,199 --> 01:31:12,600 cylinder Puntia Davisia eye. That's rare. That's kind of narrow, narrow distribution 1307 01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:15,720 it is. Yeah, And so we were like, wow, Okay, 1308 01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:19,119 so you've got this one choya over in like New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, 1309 01:31:19,239 --> 01:31:23,239 and this other choya that doesn't I mean, it kind of looks like 1310 01:31:23,319 --> 01:31:26,159 it but you know, a lot of the choyas kind of all look alike 1311 01:31:26,159 --> 01:31:30,279 anyway, So that was one that we're like, whoa. So we redid 1312 01:31:30,319 --> 01:31:32,800 the analysis with different specimens and yeah, sure enough they come out as each 1313 01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:42,560 other's closest relatives. The chloroplast. Yeah we we we We sequenced the entire 1314 01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:45,880 chloroplast genome and that's what our phylogenetic tree was was based off of. And 1315 01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:50,439 that was the first time anyone had used a whole chloroplast genome to do any 1316 01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:54,199 like big clade within the CACA. Yeah, it was super cool. I 1317 01:31:54,279 --> 01:31:57,319 was so stoked. We were so happy to finally get to do that. 1318 01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:01,279 And it's weird because I actually before where I got into ecology, I switched 1319 01:32:01,319 --> 01:32:06,239 to ecology as a concentration in my biology degree my last year of undergrad. 1320 01:32:06,359 --> 01:32:10,880 Before that, I was in molecular biology, so I worked in labs. 1321 01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:14,239 You know, I did like cancer research stuff, I for you know, 1322 01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:17,680 between when I started college and right before the end. By the by the 1323 01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:23,159 way, my college career took a while I was I was not a was 1324 01:32:23,199 --> 01:32:26,239 not a real great student for a while. But anyway, so it was 1325 01:32:26,319 --> 01:32:29,359 interesting because I knew all that you know, I was into the whole molecular 1326 01:32:29,399 --> 01:32:31,600 biology thing, and then I had this twenty five year gap, and then 1327 01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,680 all of a sudden, I'm back in a molecular biology lab and I was 1328 01:32:34,720 --> 01:32:39,560 like, Wow, things have really changed. Yeah. I was like, 1329 01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:42,800 I have no clue what all this stuff is. I mean I could still 1330 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:46,840 do. I can still pipe out like a like a pro, like the 1331 01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:50,239 analysis. You still got time. You don't have to go anytime soon? 1332 01:32:50,319 --> 01:32:53,880 Right, No, No, I don't, I don't. I guess I 1333 01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:56,520 got. But I want to ask you about I mean, now I want 1334 01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:58,880 to get into like some of the bio stuff. How you got into all 1335 01:32:58,920 --> 01:33:00,079 this stuff? So? Okay, but I got I got it? Okay, 1336 01:33:00,119 --> 01:33:02,560 Yeah, I got a warning about the genetic stuff though, that's like 1337 01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:06,039 that is not my That's not what I'm really good at. No, no, 1338 01:33:06,039 --> 01:33:09,079 no, that's not fine. I just I just want to talk about 1339 01:33:09,079 --> 01:33:11,359 deserts and how you got yeah, in the desert at college. But give 1340 01:33:11,359 --> 01:33:13,720 me a second. Yeah, go take a leak. Yeah, I think 1341 01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:15,239 I'll do the same. I can go forever. Okay, here we go, 1342 01:33:15,279 --> 01:33:17,039 all right, beck, So all right, beg from taking leek? 1343 01:33:17,079 --> 01:33:19,039 So get so how did you get so? First off, where did you 1344 01:33:19,079 --> 01:33:21,359 grow up? And then how did you get in I mean, because, 1345 01:33:21,399 --> 01:33:24,840 like you said, there's not many people studying desert botany, how'd you get 1346 01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:27,039 into this? People always ask me, you know, whit white deserts? 1347 01:33:27,039 --> 01:33:29,079 You got to focus on some besides deserts. I'm like, ah, but 1348 01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:30,359 deserts are the coolest, So I get it. But how did you get 1349 01:33:30,359 --> 01:33:34,279 into it? Yeah? So I grew up in Sacramento. I moved to 1350 01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:39,880 Sacramento, California. I moved to Southern California for college when I was eighteen. 1351 01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:44,279 And then I like within a few weeks of moving to Southern California, 1352 01:33:44,319 --> 01:33:45,920 we did one of the crazy college things where it's like, hey, it's 1353 01:33:45,960 --> 01:33:49,760 midnight, let's drive out to the desert. And so we drove out to 1354 01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:55,319 Joshua Tree and you know, we we like sneaked off in a day use 1355 01:33:55,399 --> 01:33:58,319 area and just like you know, laid sleeping bags out or whatever. And 1356 01:33:58,399 --> 01:34:00,600 the next morning I woke up and there Joshua Tree in front of me, 1357 01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:02,600 and I was like, oh, Okay, this is where I want to 1358 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:09,000 be. Was it was like the closest thing I've ever experienced to love at 1359 01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:13,680 first sight. So we moved to San Diego in ninety four, and so 1360 01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:16,720 then I got familiar with the ANNs of Barago area and stuff. And the 1361 01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:21,520 last year of undergrad basically when I decided to switch to ecology because I was 1362 01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:26,239 tired of being in a lab all the time. I at the same time, 1363 01:34:26,359 --> 01:34:29,880 I got a job with an organization there at San Diego State in the 1364 01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:34,600 Biology department called the Soil and Restoration Group, and it is a fabulous organization. 1365 01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:41,960 And basically they do ecological restoration mostly on military bases all over southern California. 1366 01:34:42,279 --> 01:34:45,760 Because of course military they're required to follow a lot of you know, 1367 01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,039 environmental regulations, which is great. And by the way, I want to 1368 01:34:48,039 --> 01:34:53,960 give a shout out to military bases because they are some of our best remaining 1369 01:34:54,279 --> 01:35:00,680 large parcels of habitat in this country. They are fabulous places work because Joe 1370 01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:03,520 sixpack cannot get out there and tear the shit out of them. And yes, 1371 01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:06,439 of course a lot of the military guys are more than happy to run 1372 01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:11,680 over tortoises and you know, shoot soarrows or whatever. But got right, 1373 01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:15,920 people are exac but people are kind of keeping an eye on them, right, 1374 01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:18,159 unlike Joe six pack. So anyway, shout out to military bases. 1375 01:35:18,199 --> 01:35:23,239 It's true, that's true. I fucking when I was doing Florida panantle Botany 1376 01:35:23,279 --> 01:35:28,640 with a friend, one of the places we illegally slept trespassed on a I 1377 01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:30,760 don't think it was a big deal, but on an air Force base out 1378 01:35:30,800 --> 01:35:33,520 there, and I was like, yeah, this whole it's so kind of 1379 01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:38,680 unusual that there's even this this pocket of habitat left, you know, and 1380 01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:42,319 what is just generally all American carslum of Florida. I mean, most of 1381 01:35:42,359 --> 01:35:45,279 Florida is just starting malls and freeways, you know. Yeah, And I 1382 01:35:45,279 --> 01:35:50,840 mean can you imagine how I mean, Orange County in San Diego County would 1383 01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:56,239 have grown together a long time ago if not for Camp Pendleton, and Camp 1384 01:35:56,279 --> 01:35:59,920 Pendleton has got so much cool shit on it. I mean, it's got 1385 01:36:00,119 --> 01:36:03,800 so many different habitats and rare species and it's just you know, Bananza. 1386 01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:08,880 But anyway, so I got into the Soile Ecology and Restoration group, and 1387 01:36:08,880 --> 01:36:11,760 that was when I started working out in the field. And one of the 1388 01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:15,239 first places I worked was Fort Irwin National Training Center, which is pretty much 1389 01:36:15,279 --> 01:36:19,119 smack dab in the middle of the Mohave Desert. It's thirty miles north of 1390 01:36:19,159 --> 01:36:24,239 Barstow, so it is really out in the middle of nowhere, and it's 1391 01:36:24,439 --> 01:36:27,479 I don't know if it's the largest military base in the country, but it's 1392 01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:31,279 one of them. It covers a huge area out there. And I spent 1393 01:36:31,399 --> 01:36:36,239 seventeen years working for SURGE, and for the last eight of those I was 1394 01:36:36,239 --> 01:36:42,039 the project manager for all of our desert project. It sounds like Energy Surges. 1395 01:36:42,239 --> 01:36:45,239 So it's the Soil Ecology and Restoration group, So it's it's the group 1396 01:36:45,279 --> 01:36:49,800 I worked for that did the restoration and so yeah, so I did have 1397 01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:54,640 a little you know, I had like my eight years of project management experience 1398 01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:57,960 there and it was just a great job. I mean, it was crazy. 1399 01:36:58,039 --> 01:37:01,239 It was just I spent way more more time in Barstow than any human 1400 01:37:01,279 --> 01:37:05,960 should have to endure Barstows. Yeah, yeah, so, and it was 1401 01:37:06,039 --> 01:37:10,359 it was just great. And I taught myself a lot of botany while I 1402 01:37:10,399 --> 01:37:14,560 was out there, because seventeen years there were a lot of good, good 1403 01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:17,000 bloom years, and so I would just get lunch break, I'd just grab 1404 01:37:17,039 --> 01:37:21,479 an apple and wander off. And another nice thing about botany is you don't 1405 01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:26,680 have to wander very far to find it. There's always plants around, and 1406 01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:30,760 especially in a good year, you know, there can be twenty species within 1407 01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:33,800 ten mets. Well, I was gonna say tonight. Another nice thing about 1408 01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:36,520 deserts, though, is if the plants aren't that season, you got the 1409 01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:40,319 rocks. You know, you always got the rocks. And that was I 1410 01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:44,880 really learned. That's why I learned. The majority of my botany, aside 1411 01:37:44,920 --> 01:37:47,880 from like northern California, like Shasta region, was in deserts. It was 1412 01:37:48,119 --> 01:37:50,680 I felt so lucky to fucking be in those places. I mean, I 1413 01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:54,439 see posting photos from there now, I'm like, God, I miss it 1414 01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:57,479 so much, man, I know, it's it's just amazing. There's so 1415 01:37:57,520 --> 01:38:00,000 many and every every desert is a little different, and every pocket of the 1416 01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:03,920 desert is a little different. It's just amazing. So I spent you know, 1417 01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:05,920 I was. I was working at Serge. I'd been there for a 1418 01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:12,279 long time, and at some point this environmental consultant in San Diego was looking 1419 01:38:12,359 --> 01:38:16,600 for surveyors for a rare plant survey east of Barstow, and so he called 1420 01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:20,800 my boss at SERGE and he's like, hey, Tom, you got a 1421 01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:25,399 desert botanist, you can loan me for a few weeks. And Tom was 1422 01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:27,560 like, oh, yeah, I can, let you have Michelle. You 1423 01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:30,520 know, churse. He didn't ask me first or anything. So then he 1424 01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:32,560 comes in and he tells me about it, and I was like, well, 1425 01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,560 that sounds really interesting, you know. So I went out on this 1426 01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:40,279 rare plant survey for, you know, a proposed solar plant, which fortunately 1427 01:38:40,279 --> 01:38:45,039 did not get built, although I'm hearing grumblings that maybe they might be building 1428 01:38:45,039 --> 01:38:47,479 something out there now, but we'll see. Anyway, it was a good 1429 01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:53,279 year. This was twenty ten, and I met all these fabulous people, 1430 01:38:53,359 --> 01:38:57,079 including Mark Baker, who was the King of Choya and that's how I got 1431 01:38:57,079 --> 01:39:01,039 into Choya. But yeah, it was just an incredibly experience and I loved 1432 01:39:01,079 --> 01:39:05,560 it, and you know, I really enjoyed restoration. But restoration is a 1433 01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:11,800 very physically laborious job, especially out in the desert when you're trying to like 1434 01:39:11,880 --> 01:39:15,600 chisel through callichi layers to plant shrubs. So I was like, wow, 1435 01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:19,800 I can hike all day and look for cool plants and get paid a lot 1436 01:39:19,840 --> 01:39:25,560 more than I'm getting paid at a nonprofit academic organization. Sign me up. 1437 01:39:26,920 --> 01:39:29,960 Yeah. So basically, I took. I came home from that job and 1438 01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:33,399 I started my company and I bought my truck with my first paycheck with my 1439 01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:39,319 paycheck from that job. And since then, I've been an independent botanist and 1440 01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:43,640 I work for I've worked for a lot of different companies. I have a 1441 01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:46,359 few that I mainly work for. Yeah, so it's been it's been great, 1442 01:39:46,359 --> 01:39:49,199 and it's been a trip. It's just been such a wild ride. 1443 01:39:49,319 --> 01:39:54,359 And I've been so many places and done so many incredible things. So what's 1444 01:39:54,399 --> 01:39:56,399 your what's the name of your company? What are you guys doing? Is 1445 01:39:56,399 --> 01:39:58,960 it mostly like surveying? Right? No? Okay, So first of all, 1446 01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:01,119 my company is me. It's just me, that's what. Okay, 1447 01:40:01,159 --> 01:40:03,640 So you're like a free so you're working for yourself. But that's I mean, 1448 01:40:03,720 --> 01:40:05,479 that sounds like a dream job to a lot of people. So what 1449 01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:10,039 what is it that you do primarily? Well, so, first of all, 1450 01:40:10,119 --> 01:40:15,000 the name of my company is Desert Solitaire Botany and Ecological Restoration, And 1451 01:40:15,119 --> 01:40:19,800 yes, that is a shout out to Edward Abbey. And uh yeah, 1452 01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:24,960 so mostly what I do is were plant surveys. That has been my bread 1453 01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:29,800 and butter mostly and it's mostly been on large scale for large scale solar, 1454 01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:32,680 which I don't you know, obviously don't want to get too much into because 1455 01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:38,840 that gets into my that gets into shitting where you eat. If I say 1456 01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:41,960 too much about what I really think about large scale solar farms, you can 1457 01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:45,199 just you can imagine. Sure, there's many much similar to my thoughts, 1458 01:40:45,279 --> 01:40:48,079 right, Yeah, yes, yes they are, Yes they are so anyway, 1459 01:40:48,159 --> 01:40:51,279 Yeah, that's mostly what I've done is rare plant surveys. I've also 1460 01:40:51,359 --> 01:40:58,520 done vegetation mapping and weed surveys. Unfortunately, you know, got got to 1461 01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:01,039 know about those bastards. Oh god, how bad it's Sahara mustard? And 1462 01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:04,920 when did it is just getting worse? Or is there any control for it? 1463 01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:08,640 Or what? Yeah? I mean it's it's here, It's here to 1464 01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:13,600 stay. The one that I'm really worried about right now, where I mostly 1465 01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:15,960 am doing working these days, is I'm The one I'm worried about is onco 1466 01:41:16,039 --> 01:41:21,479 sciphon pililiff or the stink net. What is that? No, it's an 1467 01:41:21,560 --> 01:41:26,520 it's an ast raci. It's a it's one of the discoid astracy. So 1468 01:41:26,680 --> 01:41:29,520 the flowers just look like the yellow buttons, you know, there's no no 1469 01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:32,760 ray flowers at all, kind of like well not not even like Cama Mile 1470 01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:35,399 because that's got some ray flowers. But anyway, it's a it's a little 1471 01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:39,840 low shrub. Every part of its stinks, every part of it smells, 1472 01:41:40,359 --> 01:41:45,359 and it just is that where it's from, I can't remember if it's South 1473 01:41:45,399 --> 01:41:50,000 Africa or if it's a Mediterranean one, but regardless, it's just it's just 1474 01:41:50,199 --> 01:41:56,039 no. It's so it's completely established in Phoenix, the Phoenix area, and 1475 01:41:56,079 --> 01:41:59,159 if if you look at the distribution map, it's it's well, it's grimly 1476 01:41:59,279 --> 01:42:03,359 hilarious because you've got this huge blob in Arizona, You've got this huge blob 1477 01:42:03,399 --> 01:42:09,600 in southern California, and then there's like this these triangle of distribution that is 1478 01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:13,760 all heading right towards the middle of the desert. So like I'm in where 1479 01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:16,239 I'm doing my weed monitoring on solar plants right now, it's like right in 1480 01:42:16,279 --> 01:42:20,600 the middle that both of these huge blobs of NCO's life on her heading towards 1481 01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:27,800 so I'm it's going to be there. So it's exactly exact and just as 1482 01:42:29,319 --> 01:42:31,640 just as a bonus on top of all the other bullshit, that goes along 1483 01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:36,239 with it being a seriously evasive weed. It also that's the chemical that makes 1484 01:42:36,239 --> 01:42:41,000 it stink is also toxic, and when it burns, which it really likes 1485 01:42:41,039 --> 01:42:45,520 to do because that chemical is also resonans, you get this nice toxic smoke. 1486 01:42:46,159 --> 01:42:49,760 So it's just wonderful, like burn your lungs or send you to the 1487 01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:53,920 house. I don't I don't know, I don't know. I don't want 1488 01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:56,399 that stuff. You want to be doing. You want to be doing whippets 1489 01:42:56,439 --> 01:42:59,920 of you know what. You don't want to be in a lot of bad 1490 01:43:00,279 --> 01:43:02,279 right, Okay, yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's that's the one 1491 01:43:02,319 --> 01:43:05,039 I'm really worried about right now. But you know, Sahara mustard is just 1492 01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:10,479 everywhere, and like you know, I've been working out here for twenty six 1493 01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:13,920 years, and the changes that I have seen in the California desert, well 1494 01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:16,840 not just California, but all over the desert in those that fairly short time 1495 01:43:17,399 --> 01:43:20,920 is pretty grim and pretty I mean, it's amazing, and it's in how 1496 01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:26,039 bad it is, but it's, uh, it's really it's really've seen a 1497 01:43:26,079 --> 01:43:30,600 reduction in diversity and a spread of the monocultures of shit that didn't evolve here. 1498 01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:34,439 Yes, yes, absolutely, the yeah, the Sahara mustard, the 1499 01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:39,199 cicernkiums, you know, the cisernkian areos is getting is pretty bad out there. 1500 01:43:39,199 --> 01:43:43,399 Of course, tamarisk which Edward Abbey called the devil's own. There's an 1501 01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:50,880 invasive cicerenkium. Yeah, the cicernkium, aerio altissimum and oriental are all invasive. 1502 01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:55,720 Wait, cicernkium, like the iris. I'm sorry, God damn it, 1503 01:43:55,760 --> 01:44:00,520 I made that. I'm sorry. I made every single tipen to me 1504 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:03,119 so many times. She get too genero with kind of kind of sounds similar. 1505 01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:08,279 All right, listening, audience, I meant simbrium in the in the 1506 01:44:08,359 --> 01:44:12,680 mustard family. She symbrium, Hey, man, that I've done it in 1507 01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:15,039 fucking videos and I didn't catch it, and I published the video, and 1508 01:44:15,039 --> 01:44:17,079 then I'm just like, yeah, hey, you know, if I if 1509 01:44:17,079 --> 01:44:20,000 I only, if I only had to make one major screw up in this 1510 01:44:20,159 --> 01:44:24,479 talk, that's that's all right. Yes I do, And I seriously do 1511 01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:27,359 that every single time, Like even if I'm looking at the word, I 1512 01:44:27,399 --> 01:44:30,079 still will say it wrong. Everyone understands there's no ball breakers here. Everybody 1513 01:44:30,159 --> 01:44:34,560 gets it. But so for these things. The Sahara Mustard was God, 1514 01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:39,119 I fuck it. I was at the Desert Lily Sanctuary a few years ago, 1515 01:44:39,159 --> 01:44:43,000 which isn't isn't true Lily for anyone listening. It's a gave, but 1516 01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:46,279 relative of a gave. But but uh, you know, I remember being 1517 01:44:46,319 --> 01:44:50,000 there I think twenty eighteen and going back in like twenty nineteen or twenty and 1518 01:44:50,079 --> 01:44:54,800 being like, fuck, they're all I mean it was both not a robust 1519 01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:59,680 precipitation year like it had been previously, but also the but the Sahara Mustard 1520 01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:04,439 would have like greatly expanded. It was everywhere. Yeah, that's exactly That's 1521 01:45:04,479 --> 01:45:09,199 exactly where I mostly do my work. Where I'm mostly working these days is 1522 01:45:09,479 --> 01:45:12,479 Desert Center. So yeah, I've camped in the Lily Preserve and yeah, 1523 01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:15,920 it's really sad. And the course with all the there, I mean they're 1524 01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:20,439 paving the Chuckwalla Valley with solar panels they already largely have, so just going 1525 01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:25,880 to get above the shopping centers, that's what I don't get. Yeah. 1526 01:45:26,039 --> 01:45:28,159 Yeah, So by the way, I wanted to I wanted to make sure 1527 01:45:28,159 --> 01:45:30,920 I fit in a shout out here. There is a proposed national monument that 1528 01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:34,760 I think everybody needs to, you know, get on sign petitions, do 1529 01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:41,439 whatever. The Chuckwalla National Monument is proposed right now, and it is enormous, 1530 01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:45,960 and it is going to be contiguous with Joshua Tree National Park on the 1531 01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:50,279 south side of Interstate ten. It is going to protect it will protect all 1532 01:45:50,319 --> 01:45:56,960 of the Chuckwalla Mountains and the Chuckwalla bench which is which is an incredibly diverse, 1533 01:45:57,039 --> 01:46:02,119 amazing area and it but which and by the way, if that national 1534 01:46:02,119 --> 01:46:10,479 Monument gets established, it will protect every population of the Chucky Choya at least 1535 01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:15,680 the Yes. Yeah, I've done a lot of solar surveys in that area 1536 01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:17,239 and every time I'm just like, no, wait, can we can we 1537 01:46:17,239 --> 01:46:20,000 talk about that though, Like what do you know why maybe because you have 1538 01:46:20,079 --> 01:46:25,079 an inside eye on this, why are they not building these solar panels in 1539 01:46:25,119 --> 01:46:28,880 places that are already hideous to look like look to look at which is most 1540 01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:31,760 of Consumer America, these strip malls. I mean, you get a two 1541 01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:34,600 for one, you know, bang for your buck there when you put a 1542 01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:40,279 solar farm on top of a fucking expansive parking lot, the cars don't get 1543 01:46:40,279 --> 01:46:43,319 hot anymore. Some jackeys leaves their kid in the car. You don't got 1544 01:46:43,399 --> 01:46:45,439 to worry about the kid dying, you know, just you know whatever, 1545 01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:50,119 Uh the fucking you know, the heat island effect instead of that asphalt acting 1546 01:46:50,199 --> 01:46:54,439 like a battery that just radiates heat in the summer until two in the morning 1547 01:46:54,479 --> 01:46:56,560 and there once. I mean, why are they not doing this? Is 1548 01:46:56,560 --> 01:46:59,520 it just I mean, surely someone's thought of that idea. I've only seen 1549 01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:03,119 it one in the United States and like a Walmart parking lot somewhere in suburban 1550 01:47:03,159 --> 01:47:08,319 San Diego, Like why is it just a private property thing? There's no 1551 01:47:08,399 --> 01:47:10,920 agreement? No, I mean, I just don't understand why the fuck we're 1552 01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:15,239 not doing that, Like, why are we destroying these these areas to build 1553 01:47:15,319 --> 01:47:18,479 these wild areas to build this shit? Yeah, So there's a few answers 1554 01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:21,640 to that. Number One, I don't know why it's not more common to 1555 01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:26,760 put it on rooftops and parking lots, because that is completely fucking obvious as 1556 01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:30,199 far as I'm concerned. And you know, you don't have to build transmission 1557 01:47:30,279 --> 01:47:33,359 lines because you can you can use your parking lot solar to run your store 1558 01:47:33,479 --> 01:47:38,159 right there. So anyway, I don't know, I don't know why that 1559 01:47:38,279 --> 01:47:42,880 is not more common. But as far as the so the private property thing 1560 01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:45,039 is a lot is a part of a big part of it. It's more 1561 01:47:45,079 --> 01:47:49,159 expensive. And now I don't know why if you're if you're building a Walmart, 1562 01:47:49,199 --> 01:47:51,880 I don't know why you would not just put solar panels on. But 1563 01:47:53,880 --> 01:47:58,159 what I know about is the reason, as far as I know, the 1564 01:47:58,159 --> 01:48:02,279 main reason that these huge solar farms go in on BLM land, on private 1565 01:48:02,359 --> 01:48:11,399 land is that it is when you've got tons of fallow, crappy ag land 1566 01:48:11,520 --> 01:48:15,000 in Antelope Valley, which is a lot closer to Los Angeles, which is 1567 01:48:15,039 --> 01:48:20,279 where they need power. Is the price. It's a lot cheaper to buy 1568 01:48:20,319 --> 01:48:26,600 public lands than it is to buy you know, ag land. And so 1569 01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:29,720 that's that's a big part of it right there. I thought public lands want 1570 01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:31,760 to be for sale. Though are they leasing it or what are they actually 1571 01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:36,880 owning it or what? I don't actually know what the details are because I 1572 01:48:38,119 --> 01:48:42,439 try to stay out of that because I just the culture is just so fucking 1573 01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:46,560 it gets dumb out right. Sorry, yes, you're right, I don't 1574 01:48:46,640 --> 01:48:49,159 get it, Like there's there's these are perfect, these are things we should 1575 01:48:49,159 --> 01:48:54,720 be doing, and you're you're you're reducing heat island effect. You're preventing kids 1576 01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:58,159 from dying cars, you know, which I guess is probably one in every 1577 01:48:58,319 --> 01:49:00,840 you know, one hundred thousand and happened. But still, you know, 1578 01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:02,039 there's a lot of dummies out there that leave their kids in the car. 1579 01:49:02,119 --> 01:49:04,199 Yeah, and then just other shit, I mean yeah, and it's it's 1580 01:49:04,279 --> 01:49:09,199 just more you're providing shade for cars too, so the cars don't off gas 1581 01:49:09,199 --> 01:49:11,680 plastic, they don't have the paint job, doesn't. I mean, surely 1582 01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:15,520 Americans are superficial enough that, if anything, they'll care about the way their 1583 01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:18,279 cars look, you know, yea with less exposure to UV. I mean, 1584 01:49:18,319 --> 01:49:20,560 the only thing I can think of, really, I mean, I'm 1585 01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:24,760 sure there's a lot of you know, financial whatever that goes along with it, 1586 01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:27,680 but you know, I think maybe it's just change, you know, 1587 01:49:27,720 --> 01:49:32,479 it's something different, and that always seems to take a really long time for 1588 01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:36,199 people to do, is just you know, change the way they do things. 1589 01:49:36,479 --> 01:49:41,920 And it doesn't seem like it'd be that complicated. But like I said, 1590 01:49:41,960 --> 01:49:45,760 I don't know how the minds of the people who make those decisions right, 1591 01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:47,960 and I'm sure it's all just cost Well we've talked to the shareholders and 1592 01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:53,399 decided that this we're going to say X amount of money by destroying this plot 1593 01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:57,479 of BLM land where there's a species of plant and some tortoises. That. 1594 01:49:58,279 --> 01:50:00,479 Yeah, God, Jesus Christ, it's just it's just nuts. We allow 1595 01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:06,800 people who only have their own best interests at heart to take from the commons, 1596 01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:11,000 you know, to take from the collective, to deprive you know, 1597 01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:15,279 kids today of being able to go to some of these places and see these 1598 01:50:15,319 --> 01:50:19,199 things. Yeah, and I believe the idea is that after the solar plants 1599 01:50:19,199 --> 01:50:25,079 are decommissioned, they go back to being public land. Maybe this is another 1600 01:50:25,119 --> 01:50:28,199 place where I'm just totally talking out my ass. They might say that, 1601 01:50:28,279 --> 01:50:30,960 that's probably they probably say that, But but what are we getting back even 1602 01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:33,960 if that does happen. What are we getting back? We're getting back a 1603 01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:40,680 decommissioned solar plant. Yeah, we're getting back a parking lot. There's your 1604 01:50:40,720 --> 01:50:43,560 parking lot. You can get like really tiny cars to park into the solar 1605 01:50:43,560 --> 01:50:45,359 panels out there. Yeah, it's just fucking madness. But well anyway, 1606 01:50:45,359 --> 01:50:48,239 okay, well sorry for the decide. I like, I like going all 1607 01:50:48,319 --> 01:50:51,159 over the place during these conversations. I do too, I do too. 1608 01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:55,800 But so, okay, so you're you're in the deserts, you're eleven deserts. 1609 01:50:55,840 --> 01:51:00,880 Where where's the choya pick up? Okay? So the choya picked up 1610 01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:02,720 that happened in two thousand and eight. So, first of all, twenty 1611 01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:06,439 ten, that very first survey when I was working where I met and first 1612 01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:10,880 worked with Mark Baker, like, I did not know shit about choyas and 1613 01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:16,279 silver choya or golden choya, silvertoya and buckhorn choya. The akantha karpa are 1614 01:51:16,359 --> 01:51:19,239 really similar. They're hard to tell apart, and they like to bang. 1615 01:51:19,399 --> 01:51:25,399 So when they're growing together, you get hybrids too, And so I was 1616 01:51:25,439 --> 01:51:28,239 just constantly like, well, what's this one? Is this a kantakarpa? 1617 01:51:28,399 --> 01:51:30,720 Is this he kind of karpa? What's this one? What's this one? 1618 01:51:30,199 --> 01:51:36,119 And Mark was finally, there's no fucking acantokarpa around here. So basically I 1619 01:51:36,239 --> 01:51:40,319 just you know, I asked questions. I ask tons of questions all the 1620 01:51:40,359 --> 01:51:43,399 time, and yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. But 1621 01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:47,199 then in twenty eleven was when we were on that job where we ran into 1622 01:51:47,199 --> 01:51:51,319 the chuckychoya for the first time. And so it was that like three years. 1623 01:51:51,359 --> 01:51:54,960 You know, by the time we got to the point of actually describing 1624 01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:58,319 and publishing the Chuck E Choya, I was like, I was like, 1625 01:51:58,439 --> 01:52:00,880 oh, I'm an expert in CHOYI I'm not sure how that happened, but 1626 01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:04,039 here we are. So you were just being exposed to these things and then 1627 01:52:04,079 --> 01:52:10,119 just realizing, God, damn, this is like a really fascinated I became 1628 01:52:10,239 --> 01:52:13,439 fascinated with them very very quickly. I was like, Wow, these things 1629 01:52:13,479 --> 01:52:16,000 really are super cool. And I don't know why Choya is in particular. 1630 01:52:16,079 --> 01:52:19,000 I mean, I also really like Soro famnists. That was another thing I 1631 01:52:19,039 --> 01:52:24,560 was thinking about studying love because I just I love sorrow themis. But and 1632 01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:27,640 maybe, you know, maybe when I'm eighty, I'll turn to Soro Famnis 1633 01:52:27,640 --> 01:52:30,399 when I've figured out all the Choya stuff. But yeah, that's like kind 1634 01:52:30,399 --> 01:52:32,840 of like me and Asta RACI though, like I was, I was really 1635 01:52:32,880 --> 01:52:36,119 annoyed by them at first and just seeing them everywhere and just like what the 1636 01:52:36,119 --> 01:52:39,319 fuck. And then I remember Redmond said to me once, He's like, 1637 01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:41,359 you got to get into them, man, They're so cool. And I 1638 01:52:41,359 --> 01:52:43,399 was like, Okay, looking closer, and I was like, what the 1639 01:52:43,439 --> 01:52:46,079 fuck this is? So this is and then I couldn't I couldn't understand what 1640 01:52:46,119 --> 01:52:49,760 was going on with with the variation of morphology of flower morphology there. And 1641 01:52:49,800 --> 01:52:54,640 then I was just like, I gotta fucking understand this. I became fixated. 1642 01:52:54,680 --> 01:52:57,199 I'm not going to rest until like do. And now it's one of 1643 01:52:57,199 --> 01:53:00,000 my favorite families. Every time I see a new composite, I'm like, 1644 01:53:00,039 --> 01:53:02,079 I gotta go look at it. I gotta go. It is the Asta 1645 01:53:02,199 --> 01:53:06,680 race. One of my very favorite things to teach people about is the fact 1646 01:53:06,720 --> 01:53:11,159 that what looks like a flower, well it looks it looks like a daisy, 1647 01:53:11,279 --> 01:53:15,079 is actually a whole bunch of flowers all crammed together. I just love 1648 01:53:15,199 --> 01:53:19,840 telling people about that and watching them be like what you're like, you know, 1649 01:53:20,640 --> 01:53:24,720 pulling apart a flower and being like, yeah, every single one of 1650 01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:28,720 these things is a flower. That's why this family is so successful. They 1651 01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:33,800 they pack all this you know, potential seed and potential genetic diversity into every 1652 01:53:33,800 --> 01:53:38,680 single flower head in every inflorescence. Yeah. And when you see some of 1653 01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:42,000 this, when you see like the South American families that our sister to it, 1654 01:53:42,079 --> 01:53:44,439 like, you know, calliss Racey. They do the same thing with 1655 01:53:44,479 --> 01:53:46,359 those composite heads, and you're like, oh shit, okay, but it's 1656 01:53:46,359 --> 01:53:49,520 I mean, and obviously looks different. It doesn't look like a Asta Racey, 1657 01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:51,439 but I mean it kind of does. But either way, but you 1658 01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:55,680 see those you're like, oh, okay, I see what happened here, 1659 01:53:55,720 --> 01:54:00,680 Like this was yeah, so cool. Oh there's yeah, there's another Asta 1660 01:54:00,760 --> 01:54:03,800 Raci that I think you've talked about before. Oh god, it sounds like 1661 01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:10,119 a Bible book. It's like Ecclesiastes. Yeah, that one. I ran 1662 01:54:10,159 --> 01:54:15,159 into that one exactly. I ran into that one. I ran and run 1663 01:54:15,199 --> 01:54:17,199 into that one a couple of times, and it was like, this is 1664 01:54:17,239 --> 01:54:27,439 an Asta ras Yes, single Florida, only one flower one bizarre. Yeah. 1665 01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,520 It is a great family. So much, so much diversity, but 1666 01:54:30,600 --> 01:54:31,960 way too. That's one of the things I like about Choia is, like 1667 01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:35,119 I said at the very beginning, is like they're like a manageable chunk of 1668 01:54:35,159 --> 01:54:39,159 the cactus family, you know, so you can kind of they're a good 1669 01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:44,479 kind of exemple exemplar group. You know, you can study them relatively easily 1670 01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:49,279 and thoroughly, unlike some of these more huge general like a kind of serious 1671 01:54:49,279 --> 01:54:54,439 and mammalarian, that kind of stuff. So that's one thing I like about 1672 01:54:54,479 --> 01:54:58,399 them. Yeah, yeah, you're in too. I love that. Yeah, 1673 01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:01,600 I love all the the weirdos. The weird plant I remember, I 1674 01:55:01,640 --> 01:55:05,479 think it was in the Turtle Mountains. We were walking to a disjunct stand 1675 01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:10,479 of I think it was Washingtonia or something it was. I remember we were 1676 01:55:10,479 --> 01:55:13,760 on mushrooms. This was like, yeah, years ago. It was amazing. 1677 01:55:13,760 --> 01:55:16,000 I almost stepped on a speckled rattlesnake. It was. It wasn't moving 1678 01:55:16,039 --> 01:55:19,560 because it was cool out and wet outside. It had rained the night before. 1679 01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:24,000 We just slept in the truck the night before, and it was God. 1680 01:55:24,119 --> 01:55:27,680 Being in that desolate desert area during a hard rain is nice, man, 1681 01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:31,600 it's a nice But I remember we were walking like there were sorl feminists. 1682 01:55:31,640 --> 01:55:35,640 I think it was just seeds sprouting within six hours of the rain. 1683 01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:42,319 Oh yeah, and those those seedlings if it was it spinosis, was its 1684 01:55:42,359 --> 01:55:47,680 spinos seeds. Yeah, the seedlings of that thing look so alien and crazy. 1685 01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:53,039 God, yeah, they've got that doesn't happen hugely because they've got big 1686 01:55:53,119 --> 01:55:57,800 leaves and they're they're that weird purplish gray color with those big glands, and 1687 01:55:57,880 --> 01:56:00,600 yeah, I love those things. I really like sour. That's one of 1688 01:56:00,600 --> 01:56:02,840 my favorite. I think that's one of my favorite trees. That and Crucifixion 1689 01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:06,159 Thor in the Castilla Amia. Oh yeah, I've done I've done a lot 1690 01:56:06,199 --> 01:56:11,319 of work with with the Castella. I did a great survey on twenty nine 1691 01:56:11,359 --> 01:56:15,720 Palms Marine Base for Castella back in Oh god, when was that twenty fourteen? 1692 01:56:15,800 --> 01:56:18,560 I think I'm glad you've got time because now that you mentioned this, 1693 01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:21,319 we're going to be another ten minutes at least. So oh, no worries, 1694 01:56:21,359 --> 01:56:25,119 no worries. Yeah, So that that was. That was great. 1695 01:56:25,239 --> 01:56:29,439 It was We just mapped this population of it was a few hundred plants out 1696 01:56:29,479 --> 01:56:32,800 on Lava Lake out there, Lavic Lake out there on twenty nine Palms. 1697 01:56:33,079 --> 01:56:35,920 That was a really fun job. Yeah, I really like that species. 1698 01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:39,319 So where they grow up there, it's it's like a it is it's more 1699 01:56:39,359 --> 01:56:44,600 of like a refugium. It's like a little little depression where there's more water, 1700 01:56:44,880 --> 01:56:47,960 I guess you'd think than other areas. Yeah, and have you ever 1701 01:56:48,399 --> 01:56:55,560 have you ever been to that crazy blm Crucifixion Thorn natural area, The Highway 1702 01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:59,640 ninety. Yeah, isn't that place wild? Yeah? And if you look 1703 01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:01,760 at it on Google Earth, you know, it does look like there's kind 1704 01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:05,479 of a like a depression there, like it's a not a swale, but 1705 01:57:05,760 --> 01:57:10,439 like a large scale swale. Yeah. Yeah, And so I don't know, 1706 01:57:11,239 --> 01:57:13,560 you know, it's almost like did they evolve there and come out? 1707 01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:16,560 Who was? I actually always that for a while. Yeah, Yeah, 1708 01:57:16,640 --> 01:57:19,680 Duncan. Duncan's done a lot of work on it. And another woman that 1709 01:57:19,720 --> 01:57:24,560 I've worked with a lot, Tossia Hrstobitz. She used to work at Joshua 1710 01:57:24,640 --> 01:57:28,000 Tree. She's she and Duncan actually worked a lot on it. So yeah, 1711 01:57:28,039 --> 01:57:30,760 it's it's a great species. I love that one a lot. There's 1712 01:57:30,800 --> 01:57:32,720 a ton of just growing along the ten in Arizona. I think. Yeah, 1713 01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:36,920 in Arizona, exit's sixty nine or seventy or something. Yeah. Yeah, 1714 01:57:36,920 --> 01:57:40,760 I always love being able. I always love spotting them when I'm driving 1715 01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:45,479 on Interstate ten out there. You know, of course, in California they're 1716 01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:47,079 they're considered rare. In California, I think it's like a list T B 1717 01:57:47,359 --> 01:57:50,319 or something. But you get over in Arizona, it's a lot more common. 1718 01:57:51,239 --> 01:57:55,760 There's is there some sort of weird I wasn't duncan saying there was some 1719 01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:59,359 some sort of weird megafauna thing with the fruits too. They've got these really 1720 01:57:59,439 --> 01:58:03,239 conspicuous yellow Yeah, I wouldn't. It seems like the m there must be 1721 01:58:03,239 --> 01:58:08,000 because like you said, those fruits they just grow in those really brightly colored 1722 01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:11,600 clumps. I think they kind of start out yellow and then they darken, 1723 01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:15,479 they turn red and then eventually brown, I think. Right, yeah, 1724 01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:18,239 so just they totally look like something that's like hey, big big animal, 1725 01:58:18,319 --> 01:58:21,199 come come chomp me, right yeah, And they're kind of juicy. I 1726 01:58:21,239 --> 01:58:25,600 mean they dried is something like you'll see old brown fruits on a tree and 1727 01:58:25,640 --> 01:58:29,319 it kind of ship. But if you know they when they're still green, 1728 01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:31,880 or when they're still alive, when they haven't be his yet. There there's 1729 01:58:32,000 --> 01:58:35,600 there's kind of juicy you know, not juicy they've got you know, I 1730 01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:39,399 can see how there would be some sort of reward there for something to eat 1731 01:58:39,439 --> 01:58:42,960 on, like a bird or something who knows. Man. Yeah, yeah, 1732 01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:45,199 it's a cool genus. It's not one because emory I is the only 1733 01:58:45,239 --> 01:58:50,520 species I know, But Lucas majeure is actually really interested in that that genus 1734 01:58:50,560 --> 01:58:55,560 as well. So he's he's done some pretty recent research. I think he's 1735 01:58:55,600 --> 01:58:59,760 published relatively recent. Oh yeah, that's recently. Castilla. It used to 1736 01:58:59,760 --> 01:59:02,239 be canta and now there it's the it's the it's the turnout. Yeah, 1737 01:59:02,239 --> 01:59:05,840 it was sister to and Moria. It's Castilla STEWARTI I think. But it's 1738 01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:09,800 totally a castilla. I mean it it doesn't, you know, because we 1739 01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:13,880 get Castilla erecta out here, which kind of looks like it but has leaves 1740 01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:16,640 and is not stem photosynthetic. Really, you know, in South Texas, 1741 01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:21,199 this this Castilla erect this species, your castilla textis is too. But in 1742 01:59:21,239 --> 01:59:26,840 the limestone deserts of West Texas, you get Castilla Stewartia and it looks like 1743 01:59:27,520 --> 01:59:30,359 it looks like Castilla and morie, but it just doesn't. It tops out 1744 01:59:30,359 --> 01:59:33,000 at like two or three feet and it gets these big roots and they probably 1745 01:59:33,039 --> 01:59:39,399 die back during you know, bummer years and then come back during good reigns. 1746 01:59:39,439 --> 01:59:41,880 But I mean it's got that velvety feeling a lot. I mean it 1747 01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:44,960 looks it just looks like Castella and moria. Yeah, you know, I 1748 01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:47,039 think we were I think we were actually I think last time I was over 1749 01:59:47,079 --> 01:59:50,720 in Texas, we were actually looking for some of that to collect for Lucas 1750 01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:57,000 for for a genetic material. I don't think we actually ended up finding some. 1751 01:59:57,079 --> 02:00:00,239 I think we collected some and then discovered it wasn't speak. If you 1752 02:00:00,279 --> 02:00:01,600 ever want, you ever want points, let me know it's there's some real 1753 02:00:01,720 --> 02:00:05,560 Oh yeah, yeah, okay, cool. I have to ask Lucas Ippi 1754 02:00:05,680 --> 02:00:10,039 if he wants them. But yeah, that's I do like the Castellas I 1755 02:00:10,039 --> 02:00:14,640 guess years ago. But anyway, it's such a cool one. Man. 1756 02:00:14,640 --> 02:00:15,800 I don't know, I wish more people were growing that. Well, I 1757 02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:20,000 guess some. I guess we're done. It's two hours, so all right, 1758 02:00:20,079 --> 02:00:24,239 yeah, well this was a lot of fun. Gad we finally finally, 1759 02:00:24,279 --> 02:00:26,560 glad we finally got a chance to do it. Yeah, thank you, 1760 02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:29,760 thank you for being down to come on. It's this fucking great conversation. 1761 02:00:29,920 --> 02:00:31,199 So yeah, like I said, I don't I don't get a chance 1762 02:00:31,239 --> 02:00:34,159 to blather about well, except for when I give presentations. I don't get 1763 02:00:34,159 --> 02:00:38,159 to blather about Choya very often because, like I said, you tend to 1764 02:00:38,199 --> 02:00:41,239 get the blank stares or you get even worse when you get the reactions of 1765 02:00:41,239 --> 02:00:45,920 why the fuck would you study those things because they're cool. It's not for 1766 02:00:45,960 --> 02:00:49,600 you. This thing didn't evolve spines for you, buddy. You know what 1767 02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:54,199 I tell people, I'm like, you know, what can you survive? 1768 02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:58,479 Could you stand out there in the desert, rooted in the desert for however 1769 02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:02,520 long these things live with nothing but what mother nature throws at you? Can 1770 02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:05,159 you? Could you do that? I couldn't do that? So hey, 1771 02:01:05,199 --> 02:01:09,880 maybe some respect, I think, like you, I've drawn the plants that 1772 02:01:09,920 --> 02:01:12,920 can hurt me. I think there's just something so fascinating about that, and 1773 02:01:13,039 --> 02:01:15,520 just deserts especially. I mean that again, you see, if you're in 1774 02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:19,399 evolution and how things evolve, the deserts really show you how. I mean, 1775 02:01:19,439 --> 02:01:23,720 they really put stresses on plants that they have to find out a way 1776 02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:28,000 around work around you. So all right, Michelle, thank you so much, 1777 02:01:28,479 --> 02:01:30,800 really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Joey, it's been a 1778 02:01:30,800 --> 02:01:34,479 lot of fun. And oh yeah, hi mom and dad and sister and 1779 02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:36,600 all that. Yeah, sorry, how do you get that in there? 1780 02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:41,399 Yeah to a two hour podcast? Yeah, I hope are you are your 1781 02:01:41,399 --> 02:01:44,760 parents plant people or what? No? Not really, I'm kind of the 1782 02:01:45,199 --> 02:01:48,319 science black sheep of the family. But that's that's totally cool. My parents 1783 02:01:48,319 --> 02:01:53,800 are obviously incredibly intelligent people, but I'm the one who's kind of like gone 1784 02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:58,079 the science direction in the family. But there they've always been, I mean, 1785 02:01:58,199 --> 02:02:01,439 like literally before I was born. They've just been incredibly supportive of everything 1786 02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:04,800 I've ever done, even when they think I was being a complete fuck up, 1787 02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:09,760 which I often was and often still am. Yeah, my mom was 1788 02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:12,600 a public school teacher. She told me, you know, she really impressed 1789 02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:16,640 upon me about the idea of like limestone being fossilized micro organisms when I was 1790 02:02:16,640 --> 02:02:20,279 like five in Yeah, like it was. That was so important to hear 1791 02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:23,800 then too, even if I had no way to comprehend it, because I 1792 02:02:23,880 --> 02:02:26,359 remembered it forever because it was just like, what the fuck that's crazy. 1793 02:02:26,600 --> 02:02:29,039 Yeah, well it was. You know. My dad was really my first 1794 02:02:29,039 --> 02:02:32,760 biology teacher, even though you know, his field of biology was emergency you 1795 02:02:32,760 --> 02:02:36,840 know, emergency medicine basically, you know, being showing up to r REX 1796 02:02:36,840 --> 02:02:40,760 and pulling out of people, pulling people out of car recks. But he 1797 02:02:40,960 --> 02:02:43,479 just you know, he would teach He taught me all about you know, 1798 02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:46,199 the human anatomy and how the human body works and all that, and hearts 1799 02:02:46,239 --> 02:02:48,720 and all that. By the time, I was like really young, and 1800 02:02:48,760 --> 02:02:53,119 so I've always been fascinated with biology. And then, you know, I 1801 02:02:53,119 --> 02:02:55,560 think, like a lot of biologists, I wanted to be a vet who 1802 02:02:55,600 --> 02:02:57,920 wanted to be a veterinarian at first, but then I was like, oh, 1803 02:02:58,079 --> 02:03:00,840 I can't emotionally handle that. I would break down within you know, 1804 02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:09,279 a year putting. Yeah, totally totally, and you know, dealing with 1805 02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:13,199 you know, people who are abusing their pet, sort of neglecting their pets 1806 02:03:13,199 --> 02:03:15,439 and just not you know, keep trying. I don't think i'd be able 1807 02:03:15,479 --> 02:03:20,000 to keep myself from killing them the people. So yeah. So but but 1808 02:03:20,039 --> 02:03:24,720 as far as like when I like decided plants were cool, I'm not really 1809 02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:28,640 sure when that happened. I think a lot of my teachers in school have 1810 02:03:28,720 --> 02:03:31,359 been biology teachers, have been plant people, so I think that kind of 1811 02:03:31,359 --> 02:03:34,239 pushed me. But definitely, you know, all all through my life, 1812 02:03:34,279 --> 02:03:39,840 my parents have supported me. And even if even if people don't, even 1813 02:03:39,840 --> 02:03:44,159 if they don't understand what the hell I'm talking about, they still do. 1814 02:03:44,279 --> 02:03:47,680 So yeah, well thanks again, thanks again. Yeah, and hopefully I'll 1815 02:03:47,960 --> 02:03:50,520 bump into you. I'll be out there probably at some point in the next 1816 02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:54,720 year or two. So okay, cool, Yeah, that'd be good if 1817 02:03:54,720 --> 02:03:57,960 our, if our schedules matched up. I mean, my my field schedule 1818 02:03:58,000 --> 02:04:00,039 is also always insane, but we'll see that great, Okay, alright, 1819 02:04:00,039 --> 02:04:03,039 alright, thanks to Michelle. Take care everybody else for me, Okay, 1820 02:04:03,079 --> 02:04:04,640 take care all right. My life