1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,679 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,960 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:48,960 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're episode number eighty. How did that happen? 11 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,079 It's crazy. It feels like we just started this podcast like yesterday. 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,240 That means that we've been at this for about a year and a half. 13 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,200 I think we're and a half about right. We've got some bonus episodes it's 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,840 mixed in there, and some more coming up. Yes, we have actually 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,000 some great bonus episodes coming up for sure. Because I'm on summer vacation, 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,079 I can do a lot of reading and a lot of listening to podcasts, 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:12,799 and I have a lot to share with you guys and bill us too. 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,439 Look forward to some upcoming bonus episodes of true crime Bookshelf and true crime Media 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,640 and all sorts of great stuff. And the most important thing when we're talking 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,200 about something like wow, we're eighty podcasts into it, is to thank all 21 00:01:25,239 --> 00:01:29,680 of you for your support. We're listening telling your friends about Mind over Murder. 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,200 Writing reviews on every podcast platform you can come up. Remember, you 23 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:38,560 can take that same review and put it in two or three different places, 24 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,079 and that's kosher. It's been a pleasure and a privilege working on this podcast, 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,719 and the response that we've had from so many of you has been so 26 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:51,400 gratifying and so wonderful. So thank you very much for everybody out there who 27 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,120 has listened and interacted with us on social media and said kind things. We 28 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,599 really appreciate it. There's all sorts of stuff going on in the world. 29 00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:04,200 Before we get into our topic for today, which is actually a return to 30 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,560 the Colonial Parkway murders, we're getting into the other two double homicides in the 31 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,319 Colonial Parkway murders. But before we get there, we wanted to talk about 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,479 a few things that are going on in the world. It was particularly interested 33 00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:23,000 in the Washington Post op ed that you sent me yesterday and posted on all 34 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:29,199 of our social media pages from Deirdre en Wright of the Innocence Project. Deirdre 35 00:02:29,599 --> 00:02:35,919 had put out on this past Friday an opinion piece on the Washington Post op 36 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:42,439 ed page which leads with the headline the FBI should use DNA, not posters 37 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:47,840 to solve a cold case murder. It focuses on the twenty fifth anniversary of 38 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:54,000 the unsolved murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans in the Shenandoah National Park. 39 00:02:54,479 --> 00:02:59,919 You've heard us talk about this case briefly on Mindover Murder at different times. 40 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:05,400 We may do more in depth coverage when the time is right. Deirdre en 41 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:09,360 Wright and the people at the Innocence Project had actually defended a man that was 42 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:14,919 charged in that case. The focus of the piece, though, is the 43 00:03:15,439 --> 00:03:20,919 electronic billboards that we had mentioned here on mind Over Murder and Deirdre and other 44 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,319 people that lived in Washington, d C. And some of our listeners had 45 00:03:23,319 --> 00:03:29,680 all noticed that the FBI was using the electronic billboards to request information from the 46 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:35,800 public in the Julie Williams Lolly Winans murder. Deirdre's key point is that the 47 00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:43,520 FBI should be testing the available evidence using the latest DNA technology to see if 48 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:49,039 they can solve the murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans through advance forensics, 49 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,520 which is exactly the same thing we're asking for in the Colonial Parkway murders. 50 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,560 And anyone who's familiar with us knows that our first response to that was, 51 00:03:58,599 --> 00:04:00,879 hell, yeah, you should be doing that. Absolutely, they should be 52 00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:04,719 doing that. Looking at some of the comments y'all have posted on our social 53 00:04:04,759 --> 00:04:09,280 media page, we know most of you feel the exact same way. It 54 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,719 is very gratifying, as I said earlier, to hear from all of y'all 55 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:15,079 that you're on the same page that we are, and that you want the 56 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:19,160 same things from this case as we do. We noted this morning that after 57 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:27,040 only about seventeen comments, most everybody agreeing with Deirdre Enwright that the FBI should 58 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,319 be using DNA and not electronic billboards to solve a cold case. Murder that's 59 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,920 now twenty five years old. As we close in on our thirty fifth anniversary 60 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:40,040 of the start of the Colonial Parkway murders, this fall, the Washington Post 61 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:46,120 has turned off the comments section, which I find disappointing. Only seventeen readers 62 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,360 myself included and others made comments, and then for some reason they turn off 63 00:04:50,399 --> 00:04:55,639 the comments section. I'm a bit disappointed in the Washington Post. We will 64 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,000 include a link in the show notes to this episode of Mind of a Murder, 65 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:02,360 so it's easy for you to take a look at the piece. It's 66 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:09,000 thoughtful and well written, and I think worthy of the FBI's consideration. It's 67 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:15,199 a shame that the internal politics at the FBI. And I'm not talking about 68 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,519 Republicans versus Democrats here, folks. I'm talking about internal politics at the FBI 69 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:25,199 and the DOJ. Who's who's out, who's in charge, what cases get 70 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,279 precedents, that kind of thing that seems to be having an impact on whether 71 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:34,480 or not cases receive resources. And much like the Colonial Parkway murders, the 72 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,920 murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Winan's does not seem to be a priority for 73 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,120 the FBI, which is a shame. So if you are interested in taking 74 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:46,199 a look at that op ed, we will have a link to that in 75 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,959 the show notes. We are moving on to our topic of discussion for today, 76 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:54,519 and that is the double murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling on Ragged 77 00:05:54,600 --> 00:06:00,240 Island. At this point we have finished talking about both of the FBI cases 78 00:06:00,399 --> 00:06:04,240 and so we are going to move on to the Virginia State Police cases. 79 00:06:04,759 --> 00:06:09,959 There are two jurisdictions involved in the Virginia State Police cases, which we will 80 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,079 talk about. But in terms of timeline, Bill, where does this case 81 00:06:14,199 --> 00:06:17,240 fall in the timeline of the Colonial Parkway murders Because we did talk about the 82 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,639 cases out of order. Now this is case number two. You remember that 83 00:06:21,759 --> 00:06:28,279 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski were killed in October nineteen eighty six. Almost a 84 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,680 year later, on September twentieth, David Knoppling, who is aged twenty, 85 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:35,560 and Robin Edwards, age fourteen, were found shot to death in a place 86 00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:41,920 called the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge. It's next to the James River, which 87 00:06:41,959 --> 00:06:46,720 is a substantial body of water. Kristen can tell you more in Isle of 88 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:54,680 Wight County so this is opposite Newport news Hampton roads and the major population centers 89 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:02,399 and a massive facility where they build and refurbish ships on this side. On 90 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,480 the far side, I think of it next to the James River Bridge, 91 00:07:06,879 --> 00:07:11,920 which puts you near Smithfield, Virginia, home of Smithfield Hams. I've been 92 00:07:11,959 --> 00:07:17,000 by their facility where unhappy pigs live, and it is a totally charming and 93 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,519 adorable little town. They've got a beautiful little section of streets with a restored 94 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,560 Victorian houses and great places of steaton shops. So we love going to Smithfield, 95 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,920 but we do pass Ragged Island to get there. It was even smaller 96 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:33,240 back then. Remember we're talking about thirty plus years ago. It was a 97 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,480 country. Smithfield, I agree, is completely charming, great coffee and cool 98 00:07:39,519 --> 00:07:44,600 little antique shops and it's a really neat little place. You drive right by 99 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:50,199 the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge as you enter Isle of Wight County, and it 100 00:07:50,279 --> 00:07:55,480 is one of those places where if you don't know it's there, you will 101 00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:59,879 miss it. When I first went to the scene, and this was indepen 102 00:08:00,079 --> 00:08:01,920 and a bill you and I had not been there at that point together. 103 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:05,439 We'd been to some of the others, but not that one. It actually 104 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:09,000 took me a little bit of doing to figure out where's the turn and how 105 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,680 do I need to maneuver my car to get there. So it is one 106 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,160 of those places that if you blink, you'll miss it, and if you 107 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:16,439 don't know where it is, you may have a bit of a time trying 108 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:20,199 to get there if anybody is trying to get there. As you head out 109 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,079 of Newport News, you're going to cross the four and a half mile long 110 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:28,360 James River Bridge. It's a long bridge, the JRB. As soon as 111 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:33,360 you hit land, you're going to be slowing down quickly and taking the absolute 112 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,080 first left you can and don't blink, and you will miss it. There's 113 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,039 no traffic light or anything like that. And then that kind of loops around 114 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:46,360 and you end up right next to the James River Bridge. And interestingly, 115 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,919 one of the investigators who took me there for the first time some years ago 116 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:54,120 now did point out that the physical structure of the James River Bridge actually block 117 00:08:54,279 --> 00:09:01,200 passing motorists from being able to see down into the sandy parking line where David 118 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:07,039 Knobling's Ford Ranger truck was found three days after they had gone missing in September 119 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,960 nineteen eighty seven. For those of you who are going to ask, is 120 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,679 this adjacent to the Colonial Parkway, the answer is no, it is not 121 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:18,960 adjacent to the Colonial Parkway. I know that for those of y'all that are 122 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,919 not here local, the geography of the region can be a little confounding at 123 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,519 times, So just any interest of helping those of you that are not local. 124 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:31,639 No, Ragged Island is nowhere near the Colonial Parkway, And in fact, 125 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,120 you have to go quite a good distance out of your way to get 126 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:39,559 to the JRB and Ragged Island. What do you think thirty forty minute drive? 127 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:45,000 Maybe yeah, at the very least if you use the Colonial Parkway where 128 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,879 the Thomas Dowski and Carl Haley incidents took place as a center point, and 129 00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:54,840 that's valid because it is in between, I would say it would be thirty 130 00:09:54,879 --> 00:09:58,039 forty minutes, maybe thirty minutes at night, forty maybe even forty five minutes 131 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,440 to get there if you started from one of the Colonial Parkway murders sites. 132 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:09,879 This is incident number two. It's worth noting that Edward's Nobling murder was not 133 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:15,039 linked to the Colonial Parkway murders in any way that most of us can recall. 134 00:10:15,639 --> 00:10:18,480 Kathy and Becky had been killed a year before, but given the fact 135 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:24,720 that this is incident number two, it happened in a somewhat similar location, 136 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:30,039 but Robin and David were found shot to death. No one seemed to feel 137 00:10:30,279 --> 00:10:35,240 that this had anything to do with a lesbian couple being killed using rope and 138 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,759 knives right on the Colonial Parkway, say, forty forty five minutes away, 139 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,320 So no one seemed to link the two incidents. Isle of White County Sheriff's 140 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,840 Department, which has grown tremendously as Isle of White has grown into much more 141 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:54,759 of a maybe suburban's not exactly what I mean, but there's a lot of 142 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:58,840 housing developments and yeah, very nice condos on the water and that kind of 143 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,279 thing. Back then, it was the boonies, and I don't mean that 144 00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:05,759 in a disrespectful way. An Isle of Wight Sheriff's Department was so small, 145 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,960 as I understand it, they actually didn't feel like they had the resources to 146 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:16,519 handle a double homicide investigation of this type. They then took a back seat 147 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:22,279 and allowed the Virginia State Police to assume the lead role in the investigation of 148 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,039 David Knobley and Robin Edwards. You're listening to mind Over Murder, We'll be 149 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:33,320 right back. Who wants some brand new mind Over Murder merchandise? You do, 150 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:37,279 of course, and our friends at Tea Public have hooked us up with 151 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:45,480 some great merchandise. There are mindover Murder t shirts available in about six different 152 00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:50,039 weights, female, male, soft, not so soft, something that looks 153 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:56,240 like your old Jim shirt, and in any color that you want as well. 154 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:01,279 The possibilities are limitless. And then we have tanked crew neck sweatshirts, 155 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,799 which probably won't be big in July, but might be more popular, say 156 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:13,000 in October, better for those cooler months and also for cooler months, long 157 00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:16,240 sleeve t shirts baseball t shirts, and you get to configure the color of 158 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,559 the shirt and the color of your sleeves. You could do your entire women's 159 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:26,159 softball team in mind Over Murder Baseball like that idea. We've also got mugs 160 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:35,120 available, magnets, stickers, laptop cases, phone cases, and toe bags. 161 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,960 I'm going to order a couple of toebags, can take one every day 162 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,200 of the week to school. We've got masks, which I hope we won't 163 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:46,600 be wearing soon, and walalart notebooks, a pillow. I don't know if 164 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:48,519 I need a mind Over Murder pillow, but somebody else might love it, 165 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:54,559 absolutely perfect for your living room. And then for the younger crime fighters, 166 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,879 we have kids T shirts, kids hoodies, kids long side leave t shirts 167 00:13:00,919 --> 00:13:05,000 in a variety of colors. All of these things can be configured just about 168 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:09,360 in any color you can imagine. And then my favorite, the Mindover Murder 169 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,960 onesie for the smallest crime fighters among us. So if you're interested in any 170 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:20,480 of this great merchandise, take a look at the website at tepublic dot com 171 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,639 and type in mindover Murder podcast and that will get you to all of our 172 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,879 merch You can also look for links on our social media pages and in our 173 00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:33,120 show notes. We're back here at mindover Murder. Now, when we talk 174 00:13:33,159 --> 00:13:37,320 about Virginia State Police involvement, there are actually two different offices of the Virginia 175 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:43,559 State Police that handle the two VSP cases. As we've said before on Mindover 176 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:50,879 Murder, this complicates things because if two separate Virginia State Police officers handling two 177 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:54,879 of the murders that are considered part of the so called Colonial Parkway murders they 178 00:13:54,879 --> 00:14:00,879 don't actually happen on the Colonial Parkway. For the purposes of Thebin Edwards David 179 00:14:00,919 --> 00:14:07,080 Nobling case, the Chesapeake Office of the Virginia State Police became the lead agency. 180 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,080 Can you hear a siren? Yeah, it's noon here in our small 181 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,720 town? Oh oh, okay, are you getting a okay? Yeah, 182 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:16,240 it's okay. I was. It didn't sound like a police siren. Now 183 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,159 it's the emergency call in the middle of town. It's twelve noon in our 184 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,200 small town. So the detectives from the Chesapeake Office of the Virginia State Police 185 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:30,200 became the lead agents, and the Isle of Wight Sheriff's Department was more in 186 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,799 a support role. At this point. Are the Virginia State Police still investigating 187 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:39,519 in this case? I don't have the direct contact that I do with the 188 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:45,120 FBI, and we'll be asking family members of Robin Edwards and David Nobling to 189 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,919 join us in the coming weeks, so I'll let them speak to that. 190 00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:54,159 I don't think the investigation of the Robin Edwards David Nobling case is as active 191 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,360 as it should be, and I will take it a step further. I've 192 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,919 had some great conversation with members of the Edwards and Nobling family who feel that 193 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:11,039 there may be opportunities for advanced forensic testing of the available DNA evidence, which 194 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,759 could be very helpful in moving this case forward. And I think we'll want 195 00:15:13,799 --> 00:15:20,120 to get into that further with Robin's sister in an upcoming episode of Mind Over 196 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,879 Murder. So, first of all, it's important to acknowledge that Robin Edwards 197 00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:28,679 is our youngest victim. Whereas Kathy was twenty seven and Becky was twenty one, 198 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,960 Robin is by far the youngest of the victims in the Colonial Parkway Murder's 199 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:39,919 case. She was fourteen years old. Her family and friends have always described 200 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,679 her as spirited. I think is probably a good way to describe her. 201 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,480 We've heard people describe her as an old soul somebody who I describe her if 202 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,080 she was one of my students, I would describe her as sassy. She 203 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,440 was definitely a fourteen year old who was maybe a little acted, maybe a 204 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:02,639 little older than her years suggest. Yeah, fourteen going on twenty four is 205 00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:07,840 probably a fair description. And we're not implying any criticism here. Robin's not 206 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:11,360 a little kid. She's got a rebellious streak, she's headstrong, she's run 207 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,919 away from home several times, and she's not your typical fourteen year old girl. 208 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,639 Precisely. She was found on Raggeda Island with David Knoblaine, who was 209 00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:26,399 twenty at the time of his murder. When we talk about the Colonial Parkway 210 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,919 Murders, we talk about couples. But David and Robin were not a couple. 211 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:33,240 As we said, David was twenty, Robin was fourteen, and they 212 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:38,600 did not have, to our knowledge, a relationship outside of the fact that 213 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:45,519 David had been acting as chaperone on that particular night for Robin's date with his 214 00:16:45,039 --> 00:16:49,919 cousin. I believe it was Robin and David did not have a relationship. 215 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:56,080 In fact, I think you could probably say that the only real couple in 216 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,720 the Colonial Parkway Murders series is Kathy and Becky. We want to wait knowledge 217 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:06,839 that David was in a serious relationship with his girlfriend who was expecting a child 218 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,200 and they were planning on getting married, and so this gets a little bit 219 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:17,079 delicate. Again, We're not trying to attach a value judgment to reporting these 220 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:23,039 facts. David's daughter actually appears in the Lover's Lane Murders television series, which 221 00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:27,400 we recommend if you haven't seen it on the Oxygen Network. She's now in 222 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:33,079 her early thirties. At the time of his death, David was planning to 223 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:38,680 marry his girlfriend, and obviously his tragic death cut those plans short. So 224 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:45,079 there's this slightly awkward aspect of things, which is, it appears that David 225 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:51,079 was out with Robin Edwards that evening after they had dropped off his brother and 226 00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:55,559 cousin. After a group of young people with David in the chaperone role. 227 00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:59,960 We put quotes around that had gone out and spent an evening at an arcade 228 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,720 and doing fun stuff, and then it appears that David dropped everyone off and 229 00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:11,000 then made plans to connect with Robin after he had dropped the others off, 230 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:15,799 his brother and cousin. Now we don't know what those plans entailed at this 231 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,160 point. That is only one of many things that we can speculate on, 232 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,559 but the two of them did end up at Ragged Island. We talked about 233 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:26,400 Ragged Island a little bit already, but it is important to note one other 234 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,880 thing, which is that it is very dark and very quiet, solitary, 235 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:36,680 and it is a known spot for low level drug transactions. So you can 236 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,200 infer what you will from the fact that we have two people late at night 237 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,960 in a place that is known for low level drug transactions. For our younger 238 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,440 listeners, we always have to remind you remember this is before cell phones and 239 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:56,960 before the internet for pagers. You don't have the external forms of communication in 240 00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:03,400 nineteen eighty seven that you have now. The spot they chose at Ragged Island 241 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,920 is a place that's known for, as Kristen you said, low level drug 242 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,680 deals and also sexual twists, both gay and straight. When Blaine Pardo was 243 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:18,119 working on his book on the Colonial Parkway murders, he was talking to a 244 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,599 cop as he was heading there, and the cop made reference, an off 245 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:27,640 color reference to what Blaine might be looking for at that location. And this 246 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,839 is during the day, I might add, Blaine was a little taken aback 247 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,440 that the guy made this crack. That's what the area is known for, 248 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:42,559 sexual trists and low level drug deals. If and this is a possibility, 249 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:48,039 if for example, they had gone there to engage in sexual activity, that's 250 00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:52,720 a strong possibility. There's also a strong possibility this would be the kind of 251 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:56,880 place that you would go to if you were looking to score some pot. 252 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:02,160 Let's say so, at some point or another, Jerry that evening Robin and 253 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,359 David encountered the person who would eventually murder them. Robin and David were both 254 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,960 found on the beach at Ragged Island. Both had been shot in the head, 255 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:18,680 although David did have an additional shot to his shoulder, which we've assumed 256 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,000 and I think law enforcement has also assumed, was the result of him perhaps 257 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,720 trying to get away from his assailant. There was a three day gap in 258 00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:30,480 between the time when David's truck was found and when their bodies were discovered. 259 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,400 If you remember our interview from Andy Fox of Wavy ten, he did talk 260 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:41,960 about the rather harrowing circumstances under which both the noveling and the Edwards family learn 261 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,279 about the death of their loved ones, and that was through a TV report 262 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:49,400 from Wavy News ten and a shot of their bodies on the beach from Chopper 263 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,680 ten. So if you haven't listened to that episode, we do recommend that 264 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,519 you go back and listen to that one from Andy. It's always struck me 265 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,440 that it's just about the worst way to find out that your love one has 266 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,960 been murdered. Is you're watching television news, and they announced that as part 267 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,720 of the search for at this point a missing couple, they have found bodies 268 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:15,720 on the beach about a mile away from the place where David's truck was found. 269 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:21,599 Absolutely awful. You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back 270 00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:34,279 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mindover Murder. David's 271 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:40,880 truck was found in a way that struck people who knew him as being quite 272 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:48,079 odd. For one thing, David normally backed his truck into a parking space, 273 00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:51,920 but at this point, when the truck was found, it was not 274 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:56,599 backed into a parking space, and apparently this was something that he was very 275 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,480 conscientious of doing. Every time that he parks the truck, you back it 276 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:03,079 in. I've never understood doing that. I think it's a truck thing. 277 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,680 I really I see this with pickup truck drivers. I think it's like a 278 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,599 I always park my truck nos out so that I can pull away cleanly with 279 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:18,839 no backing out into traffic, even in a sandy parking lot next to a 280 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:25,319 bridge. Because David's brother Michael even mentioned that he would do it at McDonald's 281 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,559 and places they would go and hang out as kids. So it seems like 282 00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:33,720 it's a truck thing and it's okay. And even if it's not a truck 283 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,599 guy thing, it was certainly a David thing. And so really the first 284 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,559 sort of suspicious thing about the way that David's truck was found is the fact 285 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:45,119 that it was not back down. Now, in addition, the keys were 286 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:52,279 in the ignition, the wipers were on, going back and forth and back 287 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:59,680 and forth. We're both doing the exact name an movement that was back and 288 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,519 forth. The radio was turned to accessor or rather the key was turned to 289 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:07,640 accessories, and I assume that's because you want to maybe listen to the radio 290 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,599 while you're sitting there hanging out, and the radio was on in this example. 291 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:17,640 People have remarked on the fact that Kathy and Becky's car and David and 292 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:22,920 Robin's car were both found in a state that neither driver would have left it 293 00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:26,960 in. David certainly would not have pulled his truck in nose first, and 294 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,160 he would not have gone anywhere without the keys to his car. The phrase 295 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:36,720 staged for theft started coming up. I would say probably right after Keith and 296 00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:41,119 Sandy's case, when Keith's car also turned up in a way that he would 297 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,160 not normally have left it. Do you recall when that concept of the cars 298 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,799 being staged actually started coming up. I'm not sure if it comes up immediately, 299 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:56,039 but I know the investigators had noted that. Once we moved past the 300 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,400 first incident with Kathy and Becky and are Onda being pushed over the embankment clearly 301 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:06,799 not accessible, all the other vehicles are left with keys either in the ignition 302 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,920 or right there on the center console, but very easily found. Investigators have 303 00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:18,720 theorized to me and others that they think that there's a possibility that the perpetrators 304 00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:22,440 are leaving the keys in or near the ignition with the hope that someone will 305 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,359 come along kids, I think is what they're thinking, and steal the vehicle 306 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:32,839 or move the vehicle, which would create further time space and distance and create 307 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,079 more confusion as to where law enforcement should be looking for bodies or other evidence 308 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,079 related to that incident. Now, to the best of your knowledge, was 309 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,440 David's wallet still in the car? I believe, So we're going to want 310 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,680 to probably check some of these details with family members. Let's say yes, 311 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:56,400 for the moment, and I do remember very distinctly a crime scene photo of 312 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,960 Robin's shoes in the car. There's her shoes which who were tennis shoes, 313 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,319 and she had put market or doodled on them, and I know her mother 314 00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:08,599 mentioned that as soon as she saw them she knew that they were Robin's and 315 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,599 they were articles of clothing in the car. It was rainy that evening, 316 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,079 so they most likely were in the cab, and there were articles of clothing 317 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,759 and shoes, as you've mentioned, found there, which is again similar to 318 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:30,359 other Colonial Parkway murders crime scenes, very similar. It did take three days 319 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:34,759 for Robin and David's bodies to be found, and as we mentioned, first 320 00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:40,119 inkling that the families got that they had been discovered was from the chapter ten 321 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,640 shot and they were reporting from Wavy ten. There's been a lot of conversation 322 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:52,480 on mind Over Murder and in Blaine Pardo's book and on the television series Lovers 323 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:57,880 Lane Murders about whether Robin and David were marched directly to the water, which 324 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,880 I would estimate as probably no more than about two hundred yards in a straight 325 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,079 shot, paralleling the James River Bridge, but not terribly visible from the bridge, 326 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:11,400 or that Robin and David were marched. It could be three quarters of 327 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:18,519 a mile or more down a gravel path through the marsh. Now remember this 328 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,279 is in the dark, to an area closer to the beach where they were 329 00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:26,400 found, which is about a mile downriver from where the truck was found. 330 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:33,079 I personally think that the simplest explanation is the one that makes the most sense 331 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:40,519 and probably fit the principle they call Ockham's razor, which means that Robin and 332 00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:45,960 David were either in the truck perhaps closer to the beach. There's a fence 333 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,920 there now, but you actually could drive to the edge of the water there 334 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:52,640 next to the bridge, and a lot of people use that as a boat 335 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,359 launch to take small craft in and out of the water. David's truck, 336 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,240 I don't believe it's a Ford Ranger, but I don't believe it was four 337 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,319 whel drive, but he might have been able to get fairly close to the 338 00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:07,519 water if he chose to, or alternatively, and again I'm trying to keep 339 00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:11,359 things simple. I think it's perhaps most likely that they were interrupted while in 340 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,240 the parking area and then forced to walk to the edge of the water, 341 00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:22,200 probably a gunpoint, and then executed somewhere close to the end of that road, 342 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,319 which is that Sandy Beach area that we discussed next to the bridge, 343 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,119 and then their bodies were dumped in the water after they were shot, and 344 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,839 then they floated downstream to be discovered three days later. That I think is 345 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,880 the explanation that makes the most sense. I don't buy the idea that they 346 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,359 were marched three quarters of a mile or more through a dark, sometimes swampy 347 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,880 area, this beautiful marsh. Yeah, I walked it, and this is 348 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,640 during the day, and I have as well. I've been to that site 349 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,960 at night, but not walked all the way down the path to the area 350 00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:00,720 closer to where their bodies were found. I just don't think it makes sense 351 00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:07,519 to march somebody barefoot down the gravel there, barefoot, across several small bridges 352 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,799 that are foot bridges. The whole thing just doesn't make any sense to me. 353 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,920 If you could take someone directly to the water, kill them, dump 354 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,319 their bodies in the water, and be done with it, versus taking twenty 355 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,559 or thirty minutes. Think about you wouldn't be able to walk very fast if 356 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:30,799 you were barefoot it's a terrified, half dressed couple down this winding, muddy 357 00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:36,559 gravel path through the marsh. The whole thing just doesn't make any sense to 358 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:41,440 me, especially if time is of the essence. We don't have time of 359 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,759 death, or at least not that I'm aware of. But if you're in 360 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:47,480 a place where it's known to be a place for low level drug deals or 361 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:49,480 sexual trysts at some point or another, if you're the offender, you're going 362 00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:52,880 to have to worry about, is somebody else is going to roll up on 363 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,559 me while I'm doing this. If time is of the essence, you're not 364 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,480 going to take time to walk somebody barefoot down a gravel road with a whole 365 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,759 bunch of little footbridges when you can just take them directly across the beach and 366 00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:06,640 be done with it in five minutes. Maybe. See, I agree with 367 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,759 you. It doesn't make a whole time of sense. I love White Sheriffs. 368 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:15,519 And then Virginia State Police officers had come to the scene because what they 369 00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:19,759 found, effectively was an abandoned Ford Ranger pickup truck with as you pointed out, 370 00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:26,000 the wind show wipers on and the radio on. Clearly they hadn't been 371 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:29,400 gone long enough for the battery to go dead, and the truck wasn't running. 372 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,880 It was in the accessory position. As you mentioned, they were dealing 373 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:38,039 initially with a missing person's case, but something that was sitting in this parking 374 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:45,119 area that was regularly patrolled by county and state police as they passed by. 375 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:49,279 Regarding their gunshot wounds, the Virginia State Police, like the FBI, has 376 00:29:49,319 --> 00:29:55,000 sometimes not been willing to share all of the information on the case, which 377 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,160 we understand. Autopsy reports describe the two of them as having been shot with 378 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,319 a small caliber weapon, so it sounds like something like a thirty eight or 379 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,200 perhaps even a twenty two was used as the weapon to kill them. Then 380 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:17,240 the bodies are dumped in the water. There is DNA evidence in this case, 381 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,839 it is badly deteriorated. It's almost thirty four years later. We are 382 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,319 hoping that the Virginia State Police will consider using advanced forensics in this case. 383 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,200 Our understanding is the amount of evidence is very small. Remember, many DNA 384 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:40,200 tests actually consume evidence as they're being performed, and there have been attempts to 385 00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:45,680 identify a perpetrator or perpetrators in this case. We're hoping that advanced forensics like 386 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:52,240 those available from Athram Labs could be used in this case, and the families, 387 00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:59,440 the Edwards and Nobbling families are continuing to lobby for such tests to take 388 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,039 place. We'll be talking about that further. To our knowledge, we don't 389 00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:07,680 have any bullet fragments or anything like that, and we are not one hundred 390 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,119 percent certain, as we discussed exactly where the shooting took place, whether it 391 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,720 was close to the truck or at the edge of the water, close to 392 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:19,640 the bridge, or a mile away after a walk through the swamp in the 393 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:26,160 dark. There are a number of missteps along the way in the Edwards Nobling 394 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:33,240 case. Among them are a story about fingerprint cards being dropped in the driveway 395 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,880 of one of the family's homes, and we'll ask them to tell the story. 396 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:47,240 It's really pretty shocking how sloppy some aspects of the investigation became. We've 397 00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:52,599 also found it very troubling that David's truck was returned to the Nobling family, 398 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,319 who didn't really want David's truck, and then the truck was then taken away 399 00:31:57,519 --> 00:32:02,039 again by the Virginia State Police. There are things, even by the standards 400 00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:06,920 of thirty four years ago that kind of make you cringe in terms of the 401 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,519 way the investigation move forward. And of course we did start with a missing 402 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:15,519 person's investigation when David Struck was found abandoned, and then three days later it 403 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:21,920 turned into an investigation of a double homicide. There are things about the handling 404 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:27,599 of this investigation that make me shake my head. And it's easy for us 405 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,039 to do a little Monday morning quarterbacking whenever we talk about the case, and 406 00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:36,119 we know that it's also easy for a number of our listeners who are very 407 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,160 invested in all aspects of criminal investigation, to weigh in and do the same 408 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,200 thing. But you're right, Bill, there are certain things that happen with 409 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,039 this investigation that just make you go, oh, really, who thought that 410 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:51,880 would be a good idea? So it is easy for us to sit here 411 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,240 and say, in retrospect, that was not a great idea, But like 412 00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:57,960 at the time it should have occurred to someone, this is not a great 413 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,519 idea. We need to be doing something a little bit different here. There 414 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:06,160 have been a number of suspects who've been mentioned in connection with the murder of 415 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:12,279 Robin Edwards and David Noveling as you don't mention suspects by name. We will 416 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:16,599 make an exception in some examples if we know that someone is deceased. One 417 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:22,759 person I will mention by name is Samuel Sammy Reader R. E Ider, 418 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:30,200 who actually spoke to law enforcement and put himself at the scene. He claimed 419 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:35,400 in his story, and I'm not saying I buy this. Reader claimed that 420 00:33:35,519 --> 00:33:40,960 he was there and that he entered the truck while David and Robin were engaged 421 00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:49,400 in sexual activity in nearby bushes, which on a rainy night, the whole 422 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,319 thing doesn't really fit. If you've got a truck right there. Yeah, 423 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:57,319 do you want to be inside a warm, dry truck listening to music or 424 00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:00,759 do you want to be fooling around in the bushes? Yeah, we're talking 425 00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:06,680 about this sort of beachy area with scraggly low underbrush. These don't even look 426 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,000 like comfortable bushes. As far as I'm concerned, I think what Reader was 427 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:17,360 trying to do was to explain how he was inside the truck where perhaps fingerprints 428 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,079 or other evidence would have shown him to be inside David's truck. Remember, 429 00:34:22,079 --> 00:34:27,639 this is a pre DNA environment. DNA existed, but it wasn't being used 430 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,519 in forensic analysis for law enforcement at this point, it's just making its way 431 00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:37,320 out of the lab. Supposedly Reader went into the truck to rob them while 432 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,360 they were distracted, that's his claim. And supposedly he found a small amount 433 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,920 of money in David's wallet, and he claims he's the one that I believe 434 00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:52,920 tossed David's wallet up onto the dashboard. He claims he was inside the truck 435 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,119 while they were otherwise engaged. Reader was considered a pretty serious person of interest 436 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:02,480 by law enforcement investigators VSP and Isle of Wight, and I know he was 437 00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:08,519 questioned because we have the story that he told. Unfortunately, Reader died later 438 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:15,840 in an auto asphyxiation accident or a suicide. Little hard to say. It 439 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,639 would appear from the way the scene has been described to me that he died 440 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:27,360 in an autoerotic asphyxiation accident. I could get more graphic, but do I 441 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,440 need to. Yeah, don't think so. Probably most of our listeners understand 442 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,800 exactly what you're getting at. For that. Some people may recall that Michael 443 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,719 Hutchins from the rock band In Excess from Australia also died under similar circumstances. 444 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:45,559 More music trivia from Bill Thomas. Unfortunately Sammy Reader's not around to answer questions. 445 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:52,000 There have been other drug dealers mentioned as a possibility, including one man 446 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:59,320 who supposedly had a thing for Robin Edwards and was very interested in engaging in 447 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,760 sexual behavior with her, with or without her consent. We cannot tell. 448 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,199 It appears not he's been mentioned as a suspect. He is sometimes referenced as 449 00:36:08,639 --> 00:36:13,280 Washington, but I'm here to tell you that's not his real last name. 450 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,000 He is a Newport News area drug dealer, still alive and well. As 451 00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:22,800 far as we know. That has always struck me as a possibility. It's 452 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:30,960 a particularly confounding case, and then when you factor in all of the various 453 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:36,679 missteps that have happened, it is hard to look at this case and feel 454 00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:40,880 optimistic about the fact that there will be a satisfactory conclusion to it. But 455 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,880 as Bill said, there is forensic evidence that does need to be tested. 456 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:51,559 We are hoping that at some point or another Virginia State Police will decide that 457 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,760 it is worth the risk of consuming the entire sample to get it tested. 458 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,280 We know our friends at Athram have definitely said they're stood and willing to do 459 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,119 those tests. We just have to see if the good folks at VSP are 460 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:07,880 willing to take that leap and allow that testing to happen. Now, because 461 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:14,159 we've mentioned a few suspects, at least one by name in Robin Edwards and 462 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:22,199 David Noblings murder, don't misunderstand that means we're discounting another working theory from law 463 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,960 enforcement, which is, it is entirely possible that the same person that committed 464 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:31,119 the murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski a year prior may be responsible for 465 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:37,280 Robin Edwards and David Noblings murder almost exactly a year later. That theory would 466 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:44,119 then hold that the perpetrator might have gone out, perhaps in an attempt to 467 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:51,440 recreate the experience of the year before, killing a lesbian couple, now going 468 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,960 to another place that's known for sexual behavior, a lover's lane, if you 469 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,159 will, and then perhaps choosing a couple at random whom he finds engaged in 470 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:08,880 whatever triggering behavior works for him. They talk about meeting the offender's needs. 471 00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:14,320 When we talk to our friends Jim Clementi and doctor Laura Petler and other folks 472 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:20,679 about serial offenders, that is definitely a possibility here that this case number two 473 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:25,239 is a repeat of the incident from the year before on the Colonial Parkway. 474 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,719 So the fact that we mentioned a few individuals that might be directly responsible for 475 00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:37,280 this murder, perhaps alone versus a through line, it is entirely possible that 476 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:43,159 Robin Edwards and David Nabling could be the second couple killed in the so called 477 00:38:43,159 --> 00:38:46,599 Colonial Parkway murders. And that is one of the most frustrating things about this 478 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:52,079 case, isn't it. You can easily imagine scenarios in which there is one 479 00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:58,079 serial killer stocking couples on the peninsula, but you can also imagine scenarios where 480 00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:02,079 they're four entirely different and unrelated cases. And if you watched Lover's Lane murders, 481 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,760 you do see that we have two experts who come to two very different 482 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,880 conclusions with regard to that. And there have definitely been times when Bill and 483 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,440 I are sitting and talking about the case ad nauseum and going, I don't 484 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,800 know, I'm on the serial killer theory this week. Actually, no, 485 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,840 I'm not. I'm on the I don't think this case is related. And 486 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,480 we'll toss out certain cases and say maybe these three are, but the other 487 00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:29,480 isn't. It's confounding, and at times it can be very frustrating and for 488 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:35,119 me personally, and I'm only one person of hundreds who've thought about this case 489 00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:37,760 and talked about this case. I am now taking a middle ground, which 490 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,360 is I think some of the Colonial Parkway murders are related, but I don't 491 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,679 think all of the Colonial Parkway murders are related in that one, two, 492 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:52,400 three four incident connection that we've talked about. There are these other unsolved homicides 493 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:59,719 in the area Lorient Powell, Brian Pattinger, and others that could potentially tie 494 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,440 in to some of the Colonial Parkway murders. So, as Jim Clemandy mentioned 495 00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:07,639 in the Lover's Lane murders, we could be looking at a copycat situation or 496 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:15,800 even just unrelated just overlapping murder patterns. So it's not all as straightforward as 497 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,800 we'd like it to be. I think that as a culture that is very 498 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,039 interested with true crime and in crime related TV shows, we know I'm a 499 00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:29,880 Criminal Minds fan, a CSI fan. The narrative of a serial killer stalking 500 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,960 couples around the peninsula. It's an interesting narrative. It's a more interesting narrative. 501 00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:37,880 I think for some people than this is for different people, for different 502 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:43,280 killers. So I think that may be why some people seem to like that 503 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,320 theory. Certainly, it's one that I held onto for a long time before 504 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,360 I started working with you, when I realized, okay, actually, maybe 505 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,079 probably these are not all related to each other. It's worth noting that the 506 00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:00,239 Robin Edwards David Knobling murder is the only murder that we're aware of in the 507 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:07,000 so called Colonial Parkway murders where a firearm is used. It's entirely possible that 508 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:13,679 a firearm may be used to establish control at the beginning of any of these 509 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,159 incidents. In other words, I've had a gun pulled on me. Talk 510 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,320 to my younger brother who was also robbed at gunpoint. At one point, 511 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,400 you do comply, so he sticks a gun in your face, and you're 512 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,840 thinking, you're going to do everything you can to get out of this situation 513 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,480 alive. And all you want to do is comply with this person, give 514 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:34,840 them what they want, and get rid of them. That we're aware of, 515 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,239 because unfortunately, as we know, Keith and Cassandra have never been found, 516 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,519 and so they do throw a bit of a wild card into the mix. 517 00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:45,920 We just don't know whether or not a gun was used on them, 518 00:41:46,119 --> 00:41:50,719 and I think if we reach a point where their bodies are found, I 519 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,719 think it's entirely possible a lot more answers are going to fall into place, 520 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:59,400 or maybe we'll just have more questions. There's always that possibility. Yeah, 521 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,960 And then been an incident number four, which we'll be talking about in the 522 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,639 coming week with Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower who are found on Off I 523 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:14,320 sixty four. Because we have bones and bone fragments at that scene, it's 524 00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:17,639 possible that they may have been shot, and we just have a through and 525 00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:22,800 through as they call it, where soft tissue bullet enters the soft tissue and 526 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,199 exits and then isn't found. Because where the bodies were found is not necessarily 527 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,559 where they were put to death. We believe a knife was used in that 528 00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:36,760 example, but nothing precludes a gun. So again we have these Confounding is 529 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,360 the word of the day. I think situations where we don't have all of 530 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:46,079 our answers. We'll be continuing coverage of the Robin Edwards and David Malvelene murders 531 00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:51,800 by talking to the victims' families in the coming weeks. Thank you so much 532 00:42:51,840 --> 00:43:04,119 for listening to mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over 533 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:09,559 Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers 534 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:15,360 are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 535 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,119 Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership 536 00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:24,760 with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or 537 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:30,559 Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 538 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,119 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five 539 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,159 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.