1 00:00:17,039 --> 00:00:20,280 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Tashinski, 2 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:23,039 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,079 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,239 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the 5 00:00:30,239 --> 00:00:33,719 premium version of our website, The Federalist dot Com as well. Today, 6 00:00:33,719 --> 00:00:37,799 I'm so happy to be joined by my colleague John Daniel Davidson, who's out 7 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:42,679 with a new piece in The Spectator called the Case for Cartel Wars. And 8 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:47,520 I think I tread lightly and approach any subject that I disagree with John Daniel 9 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,399 Davidson with the utmost humility. But I think John, this might be maybe 10 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:58,000 the one thing non religious thing that we disagree on. So I'm eager to 11 00:00:58,439 --> 00:01:00,200 break this down and I think you might be able to convince me by the 12 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,439 end of it. So welcome to the show. First of all, thanks 13 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:06,640 for having me, Emily. Always a pleasure to talk with you. I 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,840 thought you were going to say this might be the worst thing you've ever written. 15 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,319 Thought. I literally thought that's what you were going to say, and 16 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,200 I was gonna be like, yeah, let's get into it. Why is 17 00:01:15,359 --> 00:01:19,319 the worst thing I've ever I would have said that privately first, Okay, 18 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,120 Okay, well I never know it, but yeah, yeah, just give 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,959 me a heads up. Yeah, let's talk about it. So, by 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,480 way background, our listeners should know that I've been to the border many times. 21 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:34,719 I've written about the border. I think I started writing about the border 22 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:40,319 about ten years ago when there was that first influx of unaccompanied minors that showed 23 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:46,040 up during the Obama administration, and everyone sort of didn't understand what was happening 24 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,239 or why, and I didn't understand what was happening. So I started writing 25 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:52,959 about it and researching, and you joined me at the border. When was 26 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,840 that a year and a half ago? I lose track of time. I'm 27 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,400 very old. I really hate to bring this year. I think it was 28 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,359 two or three years ago. Okay, two or three years ago. When 29 00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:07,000 you get to be my age. Things happened between two and ten years ago. 30 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:09,159 So between two and ten years ago you joined me at the border. 31 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:16,479 We did a little border documentary called Cartel Country, and we were in McAllen 32 00:02:16,719 --> 00:02:22,599 and Brownsville on the US side, and Reynosa and Madam Morris on the Mexican 33 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,960 side. We were joined by our friend from Mexico City, David Agren, 34 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:32,039 who helped us out, and we kind of chronicled how the border crisis was 35 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:42,439 being controlled and really made worse intensified by the cartels who were using it for 36 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:49,439 profit. That this was not just a spontaneous surge of foreign nationals from all 37 00:02:49,479 --> 00:02:53,680 over the world seeking a better life, but it was an intentional money making 38 00:02:53,719 --> 00:03:00,439 scheme by cartels and elements within the Mexican state that cooperate with the cartels and 39 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,719 benefit from mass illegal immigration. So some people might not know this, by 40 00:03:05,719 --> 00:03:09,240 the way, but you have done reporting basically for your whole career on organized 41 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,080 crime, like going back to the earliest days of your career, and so 42 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,719 I imagine John, I don't know if we've ever talked about this on the 43 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:21,319 podcast before, that there is when you're covering cartels, you're taking something domestically 44 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,240 from organized crime, and there probably are some things that you learn from that 45 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:31,080 reporting that apply that apply here too. Yeah, it maybe be too It 46 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,280 may be too glamorous to say I reported an organized crime. My first jobs 47 00:03:36,719 --> 00:03:40,240 in journalism was a cops and courts beat reporter, so you know, covering 48 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:46,759 murders and court cases and going down to the police station every day to get 49 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:52,240 the police blotder. You know, driving around like literally with a police scanner 50 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,800 in my car, you know, listening for chatter. Stuff like that. 51 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:03,240 Basically Cold War era journalism, right, free cell phones, smartphones, pre 52 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,919 computers. I actually worked at a newspaper where we still like had to like 53 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:14,280 piece the page together manually, like the broadsheets. That was back before World 54 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,199 War One, though, so things changed after the war. I can tell 55 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:21,199 you it was telegraph. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I would get 56 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,519 on the phone and you know, dictate over the phone back to the head 57 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:30,000 office. You know, now we're getting off track here, you know, 58 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,439 indulging in nostalgia about the past, and that's not what we do here at 59 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:38,480 the Federalist Radio Hour. So yes, I have reported on crime for many 60 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,240 years, and it took me a while though to your point, it took 61 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,279 me a while to even after going to the border and reporting on it and 62 00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:51,839 doing multiple boarding reporting trips to the border, it took me a while to 63 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:58,199 fully wrap my head around the fact that what we were seeing unfold along the 64 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:04,959 border was not this organic thing, that it was an orchestrated thing. It 65 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:11,160 was a money making scheme. It was and is a massive black market, 66 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:16,920 and very powerful interests are involved, both on the cartel side and on the 67 00:05:16,959 --> 00:05:24,279 Mexican state side. You know, within institutions of the Mexican State, going 68 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,199 up to very high levels. It took me a while to figure that out, 69 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,519 and I was actively trying to figure it out. And so I think 70 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,839 this is a big blind spot for a lot of Americans. They don't realize 71 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:39,360 what illegal immigration has become. This is no longer what it was like during 72 00:05:39,399 --> 00:05:43,720 the Bush and Clinton years when you had high levels of illegal immigration, but 73 00:05:43,759 --> 00:05:49,480 it was mostly Mexican nationals coming across, and they were coming across to work 74 00:05:49,519 --> 00:05:55,920 in seasonal jobs. Right what is happening now is totally different. It's a 75 00:05:55,959 --> 00:06:00,879 completely different phenomenon. It's driven by different interest The people who are coming are 76 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,680 different, They're coming for different reasons, and the whole dynamic at the border 77 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,120 has changed such that there is control over the border, but it's all the 78 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,279 control is on the south side of the border. The cartel's control who crosses, 79 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:17,759 when, how much they pay, and then what happens to them when 80 00:06:17,759 --> 00:06:24,160 they get inside the country. It's a very sophisticated system. It is designed 81 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,560 to make billions and billions of dollars for the cartels and the criminal elements within 82 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:34,959 the Mexican regime. And I don't think Americans understand that. And this is 83 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,240 kind of a premise in your spectator piece. And obviously folks should read your 84 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,079 coverage of the border at the Federalists. You have a piece out just today 85 00:06:42,079 --> 00:06:46,079 as we're talking on some dumb thing, Senator Chris Murphy said, just idiotic 86 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:48,079 thing that you could only be said by somebody who knows nothing or cares nothing 87 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:54,240 about what's really happening, but or deeply at least so John, the premise 88 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,399 kind of what you're just talking we're talking about is this there is an invasion, 89 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:02,560 and that word very specifically applies for all of these reasons that get lost 90 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:08,319 in the media conversation, the Democratic parties conversation, the sort of elite conversation 91 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,360 about what's actually happening at the border. You include some numbers that you know 92 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:16,279 the cis one of the experts over there estimates about thirteen million gottaways. This 93 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:20,079 is an incredible number. One of the other numbers was thirteen based as well. 94 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:24,639 That I really liked you included the thirteen billion, So like a raise 95 00:07:24,639 --> 00:07:29,399 of five hundred million dollars to thirteen billion dollars in cartel profits from human trafficking. 96 00:07:29,519 --> 00:07:33,160 You say that takes Starbucks's profits from the pumpkinspice latte and it just becomes 97 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:40,920 Starbucks profits. That comparison between what was that was the five hundred Obama administration 98 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,879 or Trump administration to the thirteen that it is now under Biden. That was 99 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,920 Trump administration. I can't remember the exact year, but in a very short 100 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:53,480 number of years, the profits and these are estimated profits. All these numbers 101 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:58,319 are low. They're certainly higher than what the estimates are. But yeah, 102 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:01,839 there's been an explosion in the pro and part of the reason for that is 103 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:07,480 the cartels and their partners in the Mexican state figured out how to monetize mass 104 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:13,160 illegal immigration. In the years between twenty about twenty fourteen to about twenty eighteen 105 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:18,720 or nineteen, that four or five year period when you saw the first migrant 106 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,399 surge in the Trump administration in twenty nineteen and these huge caravans started coming and 107 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:28,199 Trump threatened to impose tariffs on all Mexican goods unless they shut down the caravans. 108 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:33,200 That was the point when the cartels and their partners in the Mexican state 109 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,879 figured out how to monetize illegal immigration, and the profits from there just exploded. 110 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,720 Not just monetize it, but really get organized about tracking who comes across 111 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,360 when they come across, and then tracking them once they're inside the United States 112 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:50,279 as well, you know, people, not like as a means to the 113 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:52,080 end of the drug war, right, so like it wasn't just that you 114 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,159 could have mules, no, no, ye, surely pay they could get 115 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:05,840 money for the people. Yes, this is these The illegal immigration situation that 116 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:09,799 the cartels have created is not primarily about drugs. It's they figured out how 117 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:15,919 to monetize illegal immigration like on its own, and not just the immigration part. 118 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:20,600 The people who cross into the United States who pay the cartels. Once 119 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,000 they're in the United States and are working, they still owe the cartels money. 120 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:28,840 So they're sending remittances back to Mexico. But some of those remittances are 121 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,840 going to their families in their country of origin, and some of those remittances 122 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:39,399 are going to cartels in the inside Mexico, And so it's a revenue stream. 123 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,519 It's an ongoing. It's like they're building a tax base in America and 124 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,879 the people that are crossing in many cases are what amounts to debt slaves to 125 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,120 these criminal organizations. That's part of the reason so many of them are so 126 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:58,679 intent on getting out of federal custody and getting to where they are trying to 127 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,240 get to in the United States because they have a job lined up. They 128 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:03,440 need to start making that money and send it to the cartels to keep their 129 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,480 families back home safe. Because the cartels collect all that information and they verify 130 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,000 it before they allow anyone to cross the border, and that there's a whole 131 00:10:15,159 --> 00:10:20,480 ecosystem and logistics and databases. It's very sophisticated. That is something I think 132 00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:24,159 the American people don't realize about what's happening here, is that this is an 133 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:31,320 international money making scheme on its own. The monetization of illegal immigration is massive 134 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:37,039 and sophisticated and ongoing, and that's largely what accounts for the increased numbers right 135 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:43,240 there. Once they figured out how to monetize it, then it's a numbers 136 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,480 game. The more people you can get to cross, the more that you 137 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:52,519 can increase your profits. It's a lot lower risk than trafficking drugs, which 138 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,120 is why some cartel elements have switched over to the majority of their revenue streams 139 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,279 now come from illegal immigration and not from drug trafficking. In some ways, 140 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,960 is like the perfect black market business because the demand is always there. They 141 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,679 work with partners back in the in the sending countries to extend these loans and 142 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:18,320 these these offers to people. You pay this amount upfront and we'll get you 143 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,080 over the border in the United States, and then this is this is what 144 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,919 you owe to us after you get there. And it's working, and it's 145 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,320 working, and this is this is the important thing. It's working because we 146 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:35,360 are allowing it to work, partly because not just the American people, but 147 00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:43,120 the American policy making apparatus doesn't fully comprehend like this dynamic that I'm describing, 148 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,480 well, in the dynamic you're describing. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, 149 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:52,440 But I feel like this this argument for essentially military action against the cartels. 150 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:54,639 And a lot of people will probably say, you mean military action against 151 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,799 Mexico. I don't know that that's a helpful conflation, but we can maybe 152 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,240 debate that in a bit. I think I think you know you are specifically 153 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,039 calling for military action against the cartels, which is a very important distinction if 154 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:07,320 people were just trying to say, oh, you want to invade Mexico or 155 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:13,480 whatever it is, Yes, but but but it's premised on the idea that 156 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,600 the cartels. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the cartels are 157 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:22,559 organized, they are embedded into the Mexican government, and this is an organized, 158 00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:33,039 intentional quote unquote invasion of the United States. So invasion, like one 159 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:39,279 of the working definitions for like legal constitutional reasons, we should define invasion that 160 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:46,240 is physical entry with ill intent. Right. And I think that what's going 161 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:50,399 on with the cartels and elements of the Mexican state meets those definitions, right. 162 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,120 Yes. A big part of it, and another deeply misunderstood part of 163 00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:58,440 it is the degree to which the cartels and the Mexican state are have fused, 164 00:12:58,039 --> 00:13:05,159 have become simotic, and the distinction between cartel operations and state actions is 165 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,919 very confused in a lot of parts of Mexico. Right. I mentioned in 166 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:13,759 my piece and the Spectator that former US Ambassador to Mexico, Christopher Landau, 167 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,600 who I met in Mexico and talked to in the United States as well, 168 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,799 a few years ago said that thirty five to forty percent of Mexican territory is 169 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,399 controlled by the cartels. Now, when he means the territory is controlled by 170 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,519 cartels, he doesn't mean that cartels. He means both the cartels have their 171 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:39,759 own parallel like militias and police forces, but also that that territory that's controlled 172 00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:46,679 by cartels, the civil and military and police apparatuses of those areas are also 173 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:52,200 controlled by the cartels. So the politicians, the police, the National Guard, 174 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:58,000 the elements of the I in m which is the Mexico's federal immigration agency, 175 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:05,639 all of these things are in various ways connected to the cartels, depending 176 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,360 on which part of the country you're talking about. So, and it goes 177 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,080 right to the top, right. We had news reports back in twenty nineteen 178 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,639 of the head of what amounts to Mexico's FBI was arrested in Dallas. He 179 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,440 was for six years from two thousand and six to twenty twelve during Mexico's War 180 00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:33,399 on drugs during the administration of President Philippe Calderone. This guy, General Garcia 181 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:39,799 Luna, was the head of the equivalent of Mexico's FBI. It was his 182 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,559 job to fight the cartels. He was arrested in twenty nineteen in the United 183 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,279 States because it turns out all that time he was in the pay of the 184 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,200 Cinelo cartel. So the people who are in charge of the of fighting the 185 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:58,120 cartels in Mexico have been co opted by the cartels right like, at the 186 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:05,360 highest levels of the Mexican government. And this is across administrations from Enrique Panonet 187 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:15,840 now in ricapanonetto to Opez Lobrador right now, and they are complicit in what's 188 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:20,120 going on. They're benefiting from what's going on. And so when we say 189 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:26,200 go to war with the cartels, that does mean go to war with cartels 190 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,960 inside Mexico. That's one of the things it means. And you say, 191 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,240 well, what if Mexican military forces then to try to stop you, Well, 192 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:39,240 then you take care of those Mexican military forces. They are acting on 193 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,799 behalf of the cartels. We need to treat the cartels the way we would 194 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:48,600 treat al Qaeda or isis there as a terrorist organization, but in this case 195 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:54,000 a terrorist organization that has infiltrated and fused with the Mexican state. And the 196 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:58,840 other big key thing that I argue in the book is that to do all 197 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:02,879 this requires us to shift our thinking, and especially to shift out of a 198 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,679 Washington of bipartisan consensus way of thinking that's been entrenched for decades, which is 199 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,840 that Mexico is like our partner and our friend, and we're going to work 200 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,639 together to solve these problems. That's totally wrong. Mexico should not be thought 201 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,240 of as a partner. 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Zapidebt dot com. 217 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:38,880 So what about Onlo compromising with Trump on uh remain in Mexico MPP. 218 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,799 He did that because Trump threatened to destroy the Mexican economy. In other words, 219 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,079 he treated him as an adversary, not with caros, but with a 220 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,680 stick. So you can get Mexico to jump, but you got to prod 221 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,400 them, right, you don't you don't offer to play nice with them. 222 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,559 Trump basically said to Amlo, I will destroy the mexicanomy in a matter of 223 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:04,799 weeks if you don't stop these caravans and lo and behold the caravans stopped. 224 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:11,319 I don't disagree with that, although, but I mean, I think there's 225 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,559 something interesting there, and you know, Amlo has been very upset with like 226 00:18:15,599 --> 00:18:22,720 the DEA and the American government for planting what informants in various cartails probably Seenaloa 227 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:27,240 exposing the connections between the cartels and the Mexican government. That's what he's upset 228 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:34,119 about, right. Well, actually, John, you have been pretty clear 229 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:41,519 minded about the connections potential connections between Omlo and Sinaloa. Can you flow yeah 230 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:44,720 that a little bit, because that's also I think really relevant to the case 231 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,839 that you build in the spectator piece. Yeah. Amlow, which is the 232 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,240 acronym for Lopez obrador Is, has never spoken a bad word about the cartels 233 00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:56,839 and certainly never spoken a bad word about Sineloa. The Cinelo cartel is the 234 00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:02,119 most powerful cartel in Mexico. Everybody knows El Chopo, right, he was 235 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:07,279 the leader of Cineloa until he was arrested. Amlo famously went to visit El 236 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:14,039 Chopo's mother in her hometown and shook her This during COVID, sort of paid 237 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,279 a special visit to El Chopo's hometown, met with his mother, shook her 238 00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:25,160 hand, allowed himself intentionally to be photographed doing it. It was meant to 239 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,960 send a political message inside Mexico, that Amlo wasn't going to do anything to 240 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:37,039 touch Cineloa, that the deal that his predecessor Pinnetto had with Cineloa remained intact. 241 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,359 And not only that, but the ties between the Morina Party, which 242 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,640 is AMLO's political party, and Cineloa have deepened over the course of the last 243 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,160 five years, five or six years of AMLO's presidency. Such a last year 244 00:19:53,359 --> 00:20:03,599 when there was there was elections in Mexico in Cinela, the day before elections, 245 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:11,400 cartel gunman went out and kidnapped all the political operatives and election poll workers 246 00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:15,200 and canvassers that worked for all the other political parties and took them hundreds of 247 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:21,440 people, took them to warehouses and different places and held them there until the 248 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,079 election was over. So the only political operations that were in the field in 249 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:29,160 the day before the election was the Marina Party, am Loo's party, and 250 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,599 Lo and behold Morena swept those elections in Cineloa, those state elections and ousted 251 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:40,119 the pri from power, and now Morena is in power in Cineloa State. 252 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:48,799 So there's clearly a relationship between AMLO's political party and the Cineloa cartel that goes 253 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,680 largely unreported even in Mexico because nobody wants to talk on the record about it 254 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,759 because they'll get killed. But it totally flies under the radar in the United 255 00:20:57,799 --> 00:21:03,680 States, where none of this is really discussed or barely even understood. But 256 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:07,559 the connection is real, it's persistent. If you talk to people who work 257 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:15,240 in Mexico and who cover Mexico, everyone knows about it. And this is 258 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:21,960 what I mean when I say that there's a symbiotic relationship from the presidency of 259 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,720 Philippe Calderon, who was the Conservative pan president in Mexico from two thousand and 260 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,759 six to twenty twelve. He's the one that started the drug war in Mexico, 261 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,880 right he said, we're going to go after these cartel leaders with the 262 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:40,599 military. We're going to assassinate them and dismantle their organizations. It unleashed a 263 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:47,279 flurry of violence years long in Mexico. It was very unpopular in parts of 264 00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:51,279 Mexico because a lot of people preferred the peace of the cartels to the war 265 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,000 that Calderon unleashed. And after that period two thousand and six to twenty twelve, 266 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,319 again during which as we mentioned earlier, that the head of Mexico's interior 267 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,960 federal police was in the pay of Sineloa, so it was sort of you 268 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:12,200 know, even Calderon's effort had been infiltrated. His successor, Pionetto, who 269 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:18,119 was president from twenty twelve to twenty eighteen, totally changed strategies and instead of 270 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,680 fighting the cartels, they decided that they would partner with them, and that 271 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,880 they would make peace with them, and that they would cooperate with them. 272 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:29,960 And that is the reality has been the reality in Mexico for the past decade 273 00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:33,119 or so, is that there's a partnership and there's cooperation between the Mexican state 274 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,839 and the cartels on major issues, and one of them is the border. 275 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:42,880 And another historical parrel that you write about in this piece that I thought was 276 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,400 fascinating is the Mexican Civil War and the way that the United States responded to 277 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,359 it at the time, much to the pleasure of Woodrow Wilson. Little did 278 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,880 I know. John, Can you tell us a little bit about why you 279 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,559 thought that example, or tell us about the example and why you think it's 280 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:03,279 so relevant here. Yeah, this was about one hundred years ago when the 281 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:07,880 Mexican Civil War was spilling over into border communities in the US, and after 282 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:17,359 Ponchovilla and his men raided a US military garrison in Arizona in nineteen sixteen, 283 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:23,480 Woodrow Wilson ordered General Pershing to invade Mexico and go on this punitive expedition to 284 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:27,839 try to capture or kill Ponchovilla. They failed in that effort, but they 285 00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:33,680 were in Mexico for upwards for almost a year, with like ten thousand men. 286 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,880 It was the first use of aircraft by the US military, of motorcycles 287 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:45,440 and vehicles. A lot of a lot of the technologies that would be deployed 288 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,079 in Western Europe during World War in the subsequent years of World War One were 289 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,680 used during this operation, which is fascinating on its own, but it was 290 00:23:55,799 --> 00:24:00,000 the response was, and the thinking was, and this is the parallel to 291 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,920 our time right now. The thinking at the time was, if Mexico cannot 292 00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:14,480 exercise sovereignty over its whole territory, then that implicates US national core national security 293 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,359 interests. And if Mexico cannot or will not do it, then the US 294 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:26,000 military is going to exercise sovereignty in place of Mexico to secure our borders and 295 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,440 our communities and there was no hesitation about that. It was understood to be 296 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,920 a core national security interest that the people who lived in border communities in the 297 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,799 United States could live in peace and safety. And if the chaos and violence 298 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:45,599 could not be controlled by the recognized Mexican government, then the US military would 299 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:48,920 do it. And I think that we're in that situation today. Clearly, 300 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,480 the Mexican state is unable or unwilling to control all of its territory to impose 301 00:24:53,559 --> 00:25:00,240 sovereignty over vast suahs of northern Mexico that bordered the un United States, and 302 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:07,480 our border communities cannot live in peace and security and safety while this situation persists. 303 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:11,759 So if Mexico won't exercise sovereignty on its own behalf, then the United 304 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,400 States, as its neighbor, should step up and say we're going to We 305 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:21,240 have a far greater core national interest in imposing order and security on our own 306 00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:26,480 border than we do anywhere else in the world, including Ukraine, Israel, 307 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,200 Afghanistan, Iraq, Taiwan, any of the other places in the world that 308 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,200 we've been involved in in the last forty years. None of them hold a 309 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:42,000 candle to our interests in Mexicans stability you mentioned the Lebaran family, and I 310 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:45,440 actually I don't know how many people are remember that. At the time, 311 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,559 it was big news, and people probably remember it if you explained it a 312 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:53,839 little bit drawn. But the case of dual US Mexican citizens and what happened 313 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:59,599 to them. You also use this as an example of why to the point 314 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:04,960 you just about whether Mexico is unable or unwilling to control the violence that's affecting 315 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,440 people here in the United States. It's affecting our national interest. Talk to 316 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:11,960 us a little bit about what happened to the LeBaron family. It was just 317 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,119 documented in a new HBO series. It was pretty good. But tell us 318 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,240 you know why it's important here. Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen the 319 00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:22,559 documentary, but I want to. It was big news at the time, 320 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,480 and a lot of people talked about it, and then so we all moved 321 00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,960 on, right, which we too often do when it comes to things that 322 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,440 happen in Mexico. But this happened during the Trump administration, and I write 323 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,960 about it in the piece as an example of what we could have done and 324 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:45,480 what kind of policy thinking we should apply to Mexico. This there's these communities 325 00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:51,640 of Mormons that live in Mexico that are dual Mexican US citizens. They've been 326 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,200 there since like the nineteen forties or something. I think Mitt Romney's dad was 327 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,119 founded one of these communities, so you know, obviously the most sympathetic group 328 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,759 of people, but his grandfather or his grandfather, and I mean, there's 329 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,079 they're well, I think one of the victims was actively in a plural marriage. 330 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,240 Yeah, yeah, they're like, yeah, they're like fundamentalists Mormon communities 331 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:15,440 and they the old The reason they're in Mexico in the first place was because 332 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,279 they wanted to practice polygamy and they couldn't do the United States. So they 333 00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:22,400 set up these these communities in Mexico and they've been there for generations and they're 334 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:30,000 still there. And this this one community, La Baron Family. It was 335 00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:36,000 a convoy of cars like moms with small children, children and babies, and 336 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,880 for whatever reason we don't know, cartel gunmen associated with the cartel and Sonora, 337 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,079 which is not far from from the Arason, Mexico Arizona US bord Is 338 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:53,119 like seventy miles from the border, opened fire on these vehicles, killing the 339 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:59,880 women, killing many of the children, including babies in their car seats. 340 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,119 One of the kids and a handful of his siblings managed to escape and hide 341 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,039 and then walk back for help and stuff. And so the whole story came 342 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:12,279 out right, and it was horrifying. You know, the car, the 343 00:28:12,519 --> 00:28:18,519 cartel gunman torched the cars. It was a horrifying story. And at the 344 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,319 time, President Trump came out and said, We're going to hunt these cartels 345 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,279 down and wipe them off the face of the earth. And we can't allow 346 00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:29,359 this to stand. These are US citizens who were massacred, women and children 347 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,960 massacred by cartel gunmen seventy miles from the US border. It was an outrage. 348 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,799 It remains an outrage. Trump came out, talked a big game, 349 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,880 did nothing, and then after he made his comments, AMLO came out and 350 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,920 said, we don't want any interference from the United States, will handle this 351 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,880 on our own. And of course nothing happened. A couple of local sheriffs 352 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:56,599 were like arrested, and I'm sure some cartel members were killed by their higher 353 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,799 ups who punished them for caring an international incident and hitting the wrong convoy. 354 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:10,279 But officially the United States didn't do anything. And I write about this as 355 00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:17,039 a missed opportunity. What we should have done was a punitive expedition into Mexico 356 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:22,000 without advance, without the cooperation or even knowledge of the Mexican state, which 357 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:30,720 clearly was crushed any efforts to bring accountability to the people responsible for this, 358 00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:40,839 by launching a military incursion into Mexico to secure the American citizens who are still 359 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,200 in Mexico at the time, the members of this Mormon community whoever wanted safe 360 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,880 passage back to the United States, and then conduct basically a capture or kill 361 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,480 mission against the cartels in that area, all cartel elements. It's something that 362 00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:57,799 could easily have been done in and out, you know, five or six 363 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:07,319 days. The military assets in Texas and in nearby in Arizona were there and 364 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:11,759 were available. They are there and are available for something like that, and 365 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,920 it would have been widely popular. That's the other thing, Like an American 366 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,680 president who did that would that would be the most popular thing a US president 367 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:25,119 could do, especially after something like the Liberian massacre right in the midst of 368 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,759 the outrage. It's just say, after they launched the operation, come out 369 00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:30,920 and have a press conference. US forces are moving into this area of the 370 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,160 Sonora Desert to secure the American citizens that are in harm's way, and to 371 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,880 conduct a punitive raid against the cartel elements that the Mexican state refuses to act 372 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,599 against. And this is my policy. This is the policy of this administration 373 00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:52,920 from now on. And Mexican military and police are advised to stay clear of 374 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,799 the area. And if not, then they'll they'll get fired upon, they'll 375 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:03,440 get shot down. That's the kind of posture we need to have toward Mexico. 376 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:11,480 You do that one time, and the people in Mexico who are in 377 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:14,920 charge, who are in the state, in the National Guard, in the 378 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,079 Navy and in the Marines and the army, in the presidential administration, who 379 00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:23,119 are liaising with elements of the cartels, they will figure out very quickly how 380 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:27,279 to stop things like this from happening, like the Labaron massacre, from happening. 381 00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:33,519 They are interested in making money, right, we should treat them like 382 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,200 terrorists. But they're not like jihadists, right, They're interested in making money, 383 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,599 and so you have to you have to treat them with a heavy hand 384 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,759 and make them to understand that they're not going to be allowed to make money 385 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,960 in this way, not anymore. They're not going to be allowed to make 386 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,759 money with a massive migrant trafficking operation. They're not going to be allowed to 387 00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:59,440 make money faring fentanyl into the US. They're not going to be allowed to 388 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,799 carry out these, you know, these massacres of US citizens on Mexican soil. 389 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:08,799 In nineteen eighty five, when the DEA agent Kiki Camarina was kidnapped and 390 00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:15,839 tortured and executed by Mexican cartels, we impose such a heavy cost on the 391 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,640 cartels and on the elements of the Mexican state that we're working with them that 392 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,279 it sent a message, and the message was, it costs you too much 393 00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:32,119 to kill an American DEA agent. The costs are the costs are intolerable, 394 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,440 right, we should make the costs intolerable. We can do that. It's 395 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,640 just a matter of will. It's a matter of political will and determination, 396 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,559 and it has the added benefit that it would be wildly popular. Is this 397 00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:50,279 kind of where I want to go next? You start wrapping up the piece 398 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:54,599 by sketching out what this would look like, and you mentioned Fallujah. You 399 00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:00,839 have some really specific ideas about what the military strategy should be. And here's 400 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,240 probably where we disagree the most, and that the mention of the word fallujah. 401 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:08,440 As a kid born, you know, in the early nineties, I 402 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:14,160 think of what I saw growing up in Iraq in Afghanistan, and it really 403 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,319 scares me. I don't think I could get drafted at this point. I'm 404 00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:22,200 probably too old for it. But the word quagmire sort of looms very large 405 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,920 in my imagination. And John, you're so old that you've seen even more 406 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,880 quagmires than I have. So sketch out for us a little bit about how 407 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,440 you think this would actually work, or like why it wouldn't be a quagmire. 408 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,519 The main reason, and I think I addressed this in the piece, 409 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:45,119 is that the purpose here is totally not nation building, unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, 410 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,720 where we had this sort of idiotic mission that we were going to go 411 00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:53,359 bring democracy to Iraq. You know, I was still quite young when all 412 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,759 of that was happening, so, you know, I'm old enough to have 413 00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:01,720 been young during that time. I'm and but was that always the mission or 414 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:07,400 did it turn into the mission? Because that scares me too. No. 415 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,519 I mean that was in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq. That 416 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,199 was the rhetoric that the Bush administration was pushing. They're like, where we're 417 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:15,840 going to be a conservative project. Yeah, we're going to be greeted as 418 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,519 liberators. You know, we're going to have you know, I mean and 419 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,519 then and then it became the long term mission in Afghanistan to bring sort of 420 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:28,599 like, you know, a horrible version of uh, you know, post 421 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:36,519 Christian Western paganisms to Afghanistans. They were going to have gender studies in Afghanistan, 422 00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:38,599 and we're gonna uh, you know, uh, we're gonna have you 423 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:42,960 know, feminism and women's liberation in Afghanistan. It's gonna be the greatest thing 424 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,039 ever. Uh. That was explicitly part of the motivation for those conflicts. 425 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:52,920 What I'm proposing here is the opposite of that, punitive expeditions that are meant 426 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:59,440 to change the behavior of the people who run Mexico. We are I'm not 427 00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:04,199 calling for stationing troops in Mexico. They're close enough that we don't need to. 428 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:14,559 We can just launch our operations from our US military bases and for boots 429 00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:19,280 on the ground though, yes, but not to stay in other words, 430 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:25,760 not to set up these permanent kind of military occupations. Right. The whole 431 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,360 approach here is to go in break things, send a message change behavior, 432 00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:37,000 not to nation build. This is decidedly not a neo conservative project that I'm 433 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:43,400 proposing. It's much more of a Jacksonian foreign policy than a Neocon foreign policy, 434 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,960 and that is why I think it would be popular. You know, 435 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,599 I agree with you. The last thing the American people want is another quagmire 436 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,320 or another nation building project. We hate it, clearly, that's what we 437 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,320 see. The aversion to sending more funds to Ukraine is connect to americans anxieties 438 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:07,360 about getting trapped in an unwinnable quagmire that's just a sinkhole of treasure, blood 439 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:13,360 and treasure. So so no, it would not be that the involvement the 440 00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:15,400 military side of this, and it's not just a military thing. This would 441 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,800 have to be a diplomatic Trade is a huge part of this as well, 442 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,320 that I don't deal with in the piece, But there's a whole separate piece 443 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,920 that could be written about trade because that's the thing that the Mexican elites really 444 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,280 care about as when you put the screws to them, you know, that's 445 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,239 this enormous leverage that we have on the trade front as well. So it 446 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,159 has to be a whole you know strategy that you apply to changing the behavior 447 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:45,480 of the Mexican elites. And there's a domestic element, a diplomatic, domestic 448 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:50,920 elements of it as well. All these Mexican elites have property and assets in 449 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,800 the United States. They send their kids to school here, they come here 450 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,159 for medical procedures. You could do targeted sanctions against those people, seize their 451 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:00,960 assets, you know, expel other kids from school, ban them from coming 452 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,079 to the US for you know, to go to the doctor or whatever. 453 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:09,559 There's ways you could put the screws to them on that front diplomatically as well. 454 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,280 But the military side of it is very much not a Neocon project. 455 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,760 It is a Jacksonian project. It's about punishing bad actors and forcing a change 456 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:25,239 in behavior. Now does it worry you though, that the apparatus, the 457 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:31,639 military app the Pentagon is still the neo conservatives still cling to the Pentagon. 458 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,519 So just from like a explain to me from realist perspective, Let's say you 459 00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:40,239 have another Trump administration and implement this policy, but you still have you know, 460 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,199 I don't know what Donald Trump can do to like actually clean up the 461 00:37:44,199 --> 00:37:47,119 Pentagon. So say step one, cleaning up the Pentagon doesn't come first, 462 00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:50,679 and you still want to implement this policy. Does it worry you that the 463 00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:55,480 fingers on the triggers are are probably still going to be in some significant part 464 00:37:55,679 --> 00:38:00,519 the neo conservatives who have botched all of these other operations. Yeah, not 465 00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:07,880 just the neoconservatives, but like the you know anti American you know, spy 466 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,320 agencies and intelligent community, you know, the intelligence community that wants to spy 467 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,360 on and manipulate and rule over American citizens, to destroy the constitution. Evil 468 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,159 people who hate our country. Right, No, that's that's of course, 469 00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:22,559 anytime we talk about policy and about what we should do, we have this 470 00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:29,079 problem, right And the problem is people who actually operate run the American government 471 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:35,639 are bad, all of them. So what can what can you do about 472 00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:38,039 that? You know what I mean? Like you, Yeah, so I 473 00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:42,559 think that something like what I'm describing, and this is beyond the scope of 474 00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:46,559 my article, but something like what I'm describing, I think you have to 475 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:55,519 sort of clean up and clear out of our military agencies and intelligence agencies, 476 00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:01,320 these these these neocon elements that, as you say, still have their fingers 477 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:07,199 on the trigger and to still kind of run the show. There's a lot 478 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:10,880 of things that we have to do to sort of get to the point where 479 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:17,639 like our government isn't evil and like making war on us. But I think 480 00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:27,320 that, you know, purely operationally, a lot can be accomplished with you 481 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,760 know, with a few pointed actions, you know, military diplomatic trade that 482 00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:37,280 may not require like a complete overhaul of the Pentagon to accomplish. I mean, 483 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,079 Trump did accomplish a lot in his relations with Mexico. And he had 484 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:46,360 the entire administrative bureaucracy at war with him during his entire presidency, and yet 485 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,840 he was able to renegotiate NAFTA, he was able to get AMLO to shut 486 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,760 down the caravans, and he was able to bring illegal crossings at the border 487 00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:00,519 down to historic lows through these these programs that he implemented over and against the 488 00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:05,159 desires and wishes of the deep state that was working against him, even inside 489 00:40:05,159 --> 00:40:08,480 the Department of Homeland Security. Right through remain in Mexico and Title forty two 490 00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:13,119 and some of these other measures that he put in place, illegal crossings plummeted. 491 00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:16,800 Right, So it's still possible to like move the needle forward even when 492 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:24,320 you're dealing with like a hostile deep state. Sure, and maybe, well, 493 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,960 I guess you kind of just touched on this. But you know, 494 00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:30,800 one of the things a concern that I would have is that, you know, 495 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,760 you have all of these people who are in favor of occupations or honestly 496 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,039 they're just so incompetent. That's another thing you hear from military whistleblowers, people 497 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:45,280 like Woyd Austin are just not good at this, that the top brass, 498 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:46,960 literally the top brass is just not good at what they do. And you 499 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:54,639 end up creating a situation where you have suddenly not just Honduran Venezuelan migrants coming 500 00:40:54,679 --> 00:41:00,760 through Mexico, but another wave of Mexican migrants who are fleeing this lack of 501 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,920 stability, and then we still have our de facto open border, and it's 502 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,079 just a recipe for catastrophe. So to talk about that a lot. Yeah, 503 00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:12,840 No, that's a good point, you would it would have to go 504 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,719 hand in hand with like changes to the border, right, Like we couldn't 505 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:23,480 unleash a war against the cartels without essentially saying we're not going to have an 506 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,400 open border. You know, we're not going to have catch and release, 507 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,320 we are not going to create a refugee crisis in Mexico. So this this 508 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,239 is also why like these these would need to be like targeted operations. Everything 509 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,800 about this is targeted because the point isn't too like you know, have like 510 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:47,000 a occupation or a sort of a Neocon nation building project here a debasification of 511 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:53,239 Mexico. The point is is to change the behavior of the Mexican political and 512 00:41:53,320 --> 00:42:00,679 military and corporate elites. And so your trade sanctions and your trade actions would 513 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:04,320 be targeted, Your diplomatic actions would be targeted, and your military actions would 514 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:10,360 be targeted. Limited in scope, but very sharp nevertheless, and we would 515 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,119 have to change how we deal with people who show up at the border. 516 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,719 Right. One of the things I think that Trump administration should consider, if 517 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:25,519 there is another Trump administration, is letting border governors and their law enforcement apparatuses, 518 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,960 giving them free reign. Tell Greg Abbott in Texas, Yep, you 519 00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:38,119 are authorized and you will get no pushback from federal law enforcement and immigration officials 520 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:46,360 to go ahead and arrest and deport any illegal immigrants that your personnel encounter. 521 00:42:46,559 --> 00:42:51,320 Right, which is what Greg Abbott is saying that he needs to do, 522 00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:57,159 and what the Texas legislature has authorized him to do. And the Biden administration 523 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,079 is obviously fighting that. But if we had a miministration in the White House 524 00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:09,599 that supported and cooperated with the state authorities, that would that would disrupt the 525 00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:15,639 cartel operations. Right the cartel operations are only possible the border operations, the 526 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:21,920 money making scheme that we talked about earlier, is only possible with a complacent 527 00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:28,960 administration, a complacent federal apparatus on the US side that creates an opening for 528 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:34,119 the cartels to make money. As soon as you as you send people back 529 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:42,679 across the Rio Grande to Mexico, then it destroys their whole system, right, 530 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,440 for they need to be able to get people into the United States, 531 00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:50,559 and they need to be able to persuade people that it's possible to get into 532 00:43:50,559 --> 00:43:53,000 the United States and get these much higher paying jobs to send money back. 533 00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:00,239 If people are instead of being sent into the United States and released by federal 534 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,280 authorities, if they keep getting sent back to Mexico, word very quickly gets 535 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,039 back to the sending countries that you actually can't get through. And so don't 536 00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:10,519 sell your house and go tens of thousand dollars in debt and put your family 537 00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:15,559 in danger for something that's not going to work, and the demand you control 538 00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:20,480 demand that way, and the number of people who are going to sign up 539 00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:27,239 for that is going to plummet dramatically. So so that's another That's another piece 540 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,840 of the puzzle, is that you have to actually change our policy at the 541 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,920 border, uh for for for this to work the way the way it could 542 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,119 work. John, before I let you go pick up your plywood, because 543 00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:40,679 I know that's what you have on the I got to pick up some plywood 544 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,599 today on the doger for this afternoon. Is there anything we haven't covered that 545 00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:52,320 you think is important to making this case or to knowing you know why this 546 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,639 case is important or plausible or not plausible, whatever it is. Yeah, 547 00:44:55,679 --> 00:45:00,440 there's one important thing that I want to touch on, and I just in 548 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,719 passing and the piece. But it's too often lost people who are listening to 549 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,840 us, to us who might disagree, who are who might think that what 550 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:13,719 I'm proposing is extreme, might also think that what I'm saying is that the 551 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,079 problem here is the Mexican people, or the problem here is the individual migrants. 552 00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:24,159 That is not what I'm saying at all. Our complaints and our problem 553 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,559 is not with the Mexican people. And it's not even with the individual migrants. 554 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,440 And I've said this many times before, and we've talked about this Emily. 555 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,000 If I were in the position of some of these guys in Honduras, 556 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,559 I absolutely would come to the United States and send money back to my family. 557 00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:43,960 It's a given what US policies are. It would be a no brainer. 558 00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:46,159 Right. So they are acting rationally, and they are acting in their 559 00:45:46,199 --> 00:45:50,880 own best interests and in what they believe is in the best interests of their 560 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,519 families. And so our complaints is not with them. It's with the people 561 00:45:55,559 --> 00:46:00,599 who actually control the Mexican state and the people who actually control the cartels, 562 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:08,440 who are sort of the malign actors here. And we need to be very 563 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,679 clear about that because too often our debates kind of like on the left, 564 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,719 if you talk about the stuff, you just get accused of being a racist 565 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,199 and a xenophobe, right, And too many people on the right are too 566 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,039 quick to be like, yeh, screw all Mexicans, you know, like 567 00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:29,480 we don't want them here, which isn't whatever the you know, that's like 568 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:37,360 a separate discussion like the value or the benefits or or not of mass immigration. 569 00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:42,960 Legal and illegal is almost like a separate debate. Right, This has 570 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,880 to do with what's going on at the border, which is not organic, 571 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,400 which which is a which is something that is being orchestrated for the benefit of 572 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:57,199 very few people in the cartels and in the Mexican government. And if you 573 00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:00,440 want to stop it, then you have to be very clear about what you're 574 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,360 doing. But nothing that about what we're talking about should leave anyone with the 575 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,199 impression that the problem is with the Mexican people or with the individual migrants that 576 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,119 are showing up at the border. Now, some of the migrants showing up 577 00:47:13,159 --> 00:47:17,960 the border are bad people. You know why, because there are millions of 578 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,800 them. Any group since Biden took office, like ten million people have been 579 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,199 coming to the country. Any group of ten million people is going to have 580 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,679 thousands and thousands of really bad people in it. Right, So, as 581 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:37,639 long as we have mass, uncontrolled illegal immigration on our southern border, we 582 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:43,159 will have large numbers of really bad people coming in along with a bunch of 583 00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:47,719 normal people who are coming here to work. Right CC, Senator Murphy, 584 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,679 Oh yeah, that's right. CC stands for carbon copy. It's something that 585 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,119 you're very good. I know what I know what carbon copy means, but 586 00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:00,840 you don't. You've only my high school jobs. They didn't have a credit 587 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:07,199 card machine. I worked at the local boutique, and so I absolutely made 588 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,880 I typed the number of the credit card numbers in uh and ye made a 589 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,239 little card. You had to had to call the president of the bank, 590 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,320 you know, on the on the phone. You had to dial them up. 591 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:22,119 Is missus Johnson good for this fifty bucks? Yes? Yeah, john 592 00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,239 No. I was going to say the one of the in terms of the 593 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,280 rational actors, one of the things that comes to mind is that there was 594 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:31,400 a woman we talked to. I think she was in Motomoros Musson Duran and 595 00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:37,719 was absolutely the pinnacle of rational actor archetype. She had been fleeing gang violence 596 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,239 that killed her brother. Threatened her that if they didn't pay or cooperate with 597 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,239 the gangs, and they would kill her and take her house and her family. 598 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,800 And uh. To the point of what you not being a bigot or 599 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,079 an over Zell's extremist. I remember you prayed with her and she was definitely 600 00:48:55,079 --> 00:49:00,079 not an invader, though she was being used an ex by the cartel as 601 00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:06,159 a tool of broader invasion. Project. It's a super important point. These 602 00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:10,199 people are being used by the cartels to make money. They are victims of 603 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:15,119 this scheme, even though they're acting rationally and they are sort of acting in 604 00:49:15,639 --> 00:49:20,400 their own best interests or what they decide is their own best interests, which 605 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,119 they're a lot better at deciding what is in their best interest than policymakers in 606 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:30,320 Washington are, I can assure you. But yeah, she this woman and 607 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,519 other people, many other people we talked to, it becomes very clear, 608 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,639 you know, that they are caught up in something that they don't even fully 609 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:42,599 understand. This particular woman who asked us to pray with her after we interviewed 610 00:49:42,639 --> 00:49:46,519 her, and we did you know she was trafficked. She was being trafficked 611 00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:53,440 inside Mexico and didn't realize it. And a lot of people are trafficked inside 612 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,519 Mexico and they don't know it until they try to leave the house they're staying 613 00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:00,800 in and they're not allowed to and then they have to daughter. Yeah, 614 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:06,039 they took her daughter. This is dark, terrifying stuff, but it's happening 615 00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,800 on a mass scale in Mexico. And to think that, as people on 616 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:15,760 the left do, that this is all just wonderful people just chasing their dreams 617 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,480 is the opposite of compassion. The compassionate thing to do is shut down this 618 00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:27,000 black market. Shut it down and stop allowing the cartels to victimize These millions 619 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,000 and millions of people that are transitting through Mexico in hopes of getting into the 620 00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:35,760 United States. They are all being trafficked. And that's one of the things 621 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:37,760 I say in the piece. I think a lot of Americans don't realize that 622 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:44,559 every single person who crosses the border today is being trafficked, every single one. 623 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,280 And they're not just being trafficks while they're in Mexico. Many of them 624 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,559 after they get to the United States are still being trafficked, and they're essentially 625 00:50:51,639 --> 00:50:58,519 debt slaves in the and they are enthrall to the cartels. So we need 626 00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:01,079 to get real about this stuff and start talking about how to put an end 627 00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:06,360 to it. And the article in the Spectator proposes one solution, which is 628 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,360 to make war on the cartels. John Daniel Davidson is the author of Pagan 629 00:51:10,519 --> 00:51:15,760 America and a senior editor at The Federalist. But the plywould alate awaits, 630 00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:20,159 so John, I'll let you get to it. Thanks Emily always a pleasure 631 00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:22,559 to talk with you. You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio 632 00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:25,719 Hour Emile Dashinski, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon 633 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:42,360 with more. Until then, be the lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.