1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:48,359 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,840 I'm Bill Thomas. I would like to give a shout out to my younger 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,960 brother Adam, who does not listen to this podcast, but nonetheless, happy 12 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,000 birthday to my brother Adam. Does he refuse to listen to mind over Murder. 13 00:01:00,439 --> 00:01:03,399 No, he just has no interest, he says, I don't want 14 00:01:03,399 --> 00:01:06,640 to listen to that murder stuff. Okay, that murder stuff. I don't 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,719 want to listen to that murder stuff even though it's his kid's sister. That's 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,400 okay, I'm the older sister. Excuse me. Oh, I'm sorry. 17 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:15,799 I thought he was I thought he was older. Nope, I'm older by 18 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,120 three years. Oh. I thought with him being cranky and all of that, 19 00:01:19,159 --> 00:01:23,560 he was the older brother. Now, oh, you are the boss 20 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:26,159 of him. Thankfully, you're not the boss of me. In other true 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,799 crime news, and on a much more serious note, we've been discussing the 22 00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:37,079 case of Gabrielle Petito, which is also highlighted a number of other unsolved murders 23 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:42,239 in the western part of the United States, including a number of Native American 24 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:48,040 and Indigenous women. There are hundreds of Native American and Indigenous women missing in 25 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,239 that part of the country, as well as other cases which remain frustratingly unsolved. 26 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:59,760 One of them is yet another lesbian couple who've been murdered in a national 27 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:06,280 park and their case remains unsolved. Another lesbian couple who were murdered in the 28 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:09,759 same area. This is a married couple, two women, Kylan Carol schult 29 00:02:09,879 --> 00:02:15,759 Or Shulty forgive Me and Crystal Michelle Turner, age thirty eight. They were 30 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:22,120 last seen leaving a bar in moab Utah, same area, and they were 31 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:25,360 found shot to death. And they had told friends they had run into a 32 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:30,879 creepy guy, someone that made them uncomfortable, but not much more of a 33 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:36,639 description than that. Moab Utah, which is not far from the Arches National 34 00:02:36,719 --> 00:02:42,280 Park. These are beautiful areas with not a lot of crime. The whole 35 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,919 thing just seems very mysterious. I'm not trying to link Gabby Potato's disappearance and 36 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,599 the murder of Kylan and Crystal. I don't think these things are related, 37 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:58,520 but certainly you need to explore all of the potential avenues. I'm hopeful that 38 00:02:58,759 --> 00:03:04,400 with additional sources put into both of these cases that we'll see some sort of 39 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:07,680 resolution. Very disturbing news out of Utah, yeah, very much. A 40 00:03:07,759 --> 00:03:13,560 second case that we've followed very closely, and our friends Lance and Tim and 41 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:19,039 their Missing podcast have covered this case extensively. That is the disappearance of Mora 42 00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:23,360 Murray, who's been gone now from a New Hampshire and the University of Massachusetts, 43 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,080 my alma mater, where she disappeared more than seventeen years ago. There 44 00:03:28,159 --> 00:03:31,759 may be a development in that case in that bones have been found. Human 45 00:03:32,439 --> 00:03:38,199 remains have been found at Loon Mountain, New Hampshire, which is about twenty 46 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:43,520 five miles away from Haverural, New Hampshire, where her car was found. 47 00:03:44,319 --> 00:03:49,599 In the early going of the investigation of the Mora Murney disappearance, there were 48 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:57,360 three young college age men who were on the suspect list who I think we're 49 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,759 skiing and working at Loon Mountain. She disappeared in February two thousand and four, 50 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:09,080 so this is during ski season. Her car is found after a relatively 51 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:15,199 minor accident on the snowy road, essentially abandoned. She's never found. One 52 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,120 of the groups of people that they looked into were these three guys that were 53 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:25,360 working up at Loon Mountain and not trying to tie those two threads together prematurely. 54 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:32,399 But it did make me think back to discussions of these three suspects persons 55 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:36,720 of interest in the Mora Murray disappearance and the fact that now bones have been 56 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:43,000 found at a construction site at Loon Mountain. There's been so many twists and 57 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:46,839 turns in this Mara Murray case over the years. I think it'll be very 58 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,800 interesting to see if it is finally time for some answers and resolution here, 59 00:04:50,879 --> 00:04:56,160 so we'll definitely look forward to that. It should take a while, I 60 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,639 would assume, to get test results back, so I think we won't know 61 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:01,560 from many months. It's going to be very interesting to see what comes of 62 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,040 this development. I know that New Hampshire State Police are taking the lead here, 63 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,839 and some of the articles I read indicated that a number of the top 64 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,920 agencies in New Hampshire were going to be involved in the analysis of these bone 65 00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:20,480 fragments. And I think we're looking at least two to three months before we 66 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:26,079 have some results. And Julie Murray or a sister who's been a family spokesperson 67 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,600 an advocate in that case, was talking with the Boston television stations and radio 68 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:36,639 stations and so on about how difficult this is. It's the first solid lead 69 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:42,720 I think they've had in the Morrimarty case in several years. I would say, 70 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:46,279 we'll look forward to seeing what sort of answers eventually come out of all 71 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,920 of this. We're going to get back to our analysis of all that remains 72 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:57,879 by Patricia Cornwell, the novel that may or may not be based on the 73 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,120 Colonial Parkway murders, depending on who you ask, and perhaps what day of 74 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:08,279 the week it is. So you're grinning over there, I can see it. 75 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:12,800 Is this the part when I snort derisively because if this book isn't the 76 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,879 Colonial Parkway murders, I'll eat my hat. It is interesting, though, 77 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,720 that we've had some people comment on our first episode. Thank you very much 78 00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:24,319 for all your comments, By the way, we always appreciate them. And 79 00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:28,600 I think we do need to make clear that Patricia Cornwell has never said one 80 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,839 way or the other that this is or is not based off the Colonial Parkway 81 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,040 murders. I don't think she has ever actually come out and spoken about it, 82 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:41,120 So I don't want people to think that she fled out said oh no, 83 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,399 this isn't based on that case. When we're looking at this and going, 84 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,959 actually, probably it is, we no wan to think that she said 85 00:06:46,959 --> 00:06:50,000 that. She didn't. She's never come out and said it hasn't been based 86 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,839 on the case. You're probably is my You've got to be kidding. This 87 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,319 fictional book I'm putting air quotes around is clearly based on the Colonial Parkway murders. 88 00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:09,000 I know. I'm hedging so that our legal department has something to eventually 89 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,399 wrangle with when she sends her high powered lawyers after us. Let's not plant 90 00:07:13,439 --> 00:07:15,560 that thought. Yeah, let's not at all. Just keep going. Tell 91 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:18,399 us more, Kristin Dilley, Well, last time that we left off in 92 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,480 our discussion of the book, we were talking about the fact that there are 93 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:27,720 two characters that are very similar to your sister, Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend 94 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,600 Rebecca Dowski. And those are the two characters in Jill Harrington and Elizabeth Mott. 95 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:39,720 And we did cover last time that there are quite a few similarities between 96 00:07:40,199 --> 00:07:45,639 the fictional counterparts and the I almost said exactly what you said earlier off air. 97 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,720 I almost said, real life characters. Well, we're not real characters, 98 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:53,639 are we We're not real characters. There are a lot of similarities between 99 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,319 Kathy and Becky and their fictional counterparts, Jill and Elizabeth. And one thing 100 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:01,240 I wanted to touch on and get you clarification on, Bill, because you 101 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:07,480 are the expert on Kathy Thomas. Jill is described in the novel as being 102 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,800 a special and accomplished woman, which of course we know would describe both Kathy 103 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:18,319 and Becky, but she is also described as being very conflicted about her sexuality 104 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,639 and to the best of my knowledge, that did not apply to either Kathy 105 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:26,000 or Becky. Can you speak to Kathy for a minute. Yeah, I 106 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:31,199 don't think any of us ever had the sense that Kathy was conflicted about being 107 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,559 a lesbian. Now, remember, my younger brother, Jack was also gay, 108 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,960 and Kathy were extremely close. They're a year and two weeks apart. 109 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,200 They're the youngest of four kids, and we used to talk about the big 110 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:46,759 kids, which would be my older brother Richard, and myself I'm three years 111 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:50,240 younger, and then the little kids. Now Jack's only a year and a 112 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,679 half behind me, but the world got divided up into the big kids and 113 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,759 the little kids. Interestingly, as we grew up and became teenagers and started 114 00:08:58,759 --> 00:09:07,200 to Kathy and Jack were always extremely close, and they were confidants from as 115 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,559 far back as I can remember. I don't think I remember at any point 116 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,879 when Kathy came out to us as being lesbian. I don't think there was 117 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:22,600 ever any conflict inside Kathy's heart and mind, any conflict that I'm aware of. 118 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:28,080 Those were external forces, the fact that she was gay at a time 119 00:09:28,399 --> 00:09:33,440 when you couldn't be gay or lesbian and served in the United States Navy her 120 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:41,320 conflicts would have been with the Navy, with the NCIS who investigated her, 121 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,679 the Naval Criminal Investigative Service who looked into her sexuality in nineteen eighty four and 122 00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:52,200 directly led to her making the decision to leave the Navy. Those were all 123 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:58,759 external forces with Becky. I think we know less because Kathy was involved with 124 00:10:00,039 --> 00:10:01,840 if a shipmate. She met and fell in love with a shipmate, and 125 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:07,559 they lived together it's going to be about four years, and then they broke 126 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:13,000 up directly as a result of the NCIS investigation into Kathy's sexuality. Her girlfriend 127 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:16,919 was out of the Navy and therefore in the clear by that point. So 128 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:24,159 her girlfriend then introduced her to a classmate, Rebecca Doowski, and Kathy entered 129 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,440 into a dating relationship with Rebecca Doowski in the spring of nineteen eighty six. 130 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,639 Getting down to the math here, Becky is Kathy's second lesbian relationship. For 131 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,440 Becky, Kathy is her first relationship with the woman. We're not aware of 132 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,840 any conflict that Becky might have been feeling about it. The two women, 133 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,440 Kathy and Becky were very happy and really seemed to be developing a very nice 134 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,080 relationship that was probably stretching on for about six months at the time of their 135 00:10:54,159 --> 00:11:00,480 death. I'm not sure what would have happened after Becky had graduated from william 136 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,720 and married the following year, but certainly at that moment things seem very good 137 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:09,840 and very happy. Because Becky wasn't out to her family about being in a 138 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:16,799 lesbian relationship. I don't know if too many people can attest to Becky's state 139 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,480 of mind. Very hard for me to say definitively that Becky didn't have any 140 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,440 conflicted feelings about being in a gay relationship, and that's great. That's a 141 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:33,320 better response than I would have expected. There is discussion in this chapter two, 142 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,360 which I also think is worth going over, that maybe the two women 143 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:43,159 Jill and Elizabeth, had been having a discussion of such impassioned a moment that 144 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:48,919 they wouldn't have noticed someone coming up to them in the parking lot and trying 145 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,919 to abduct them. And I feel like Cornwell puts the two of them at 146 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,679 a rather rundown sort of bar called the Anchor Bar and Grill. We do 147 00:11:58,759 --> 00:12:03,799 have eyewitness testimony that potentially puts Kathy and Becky at the Yorktown Pub on October 148 00:12:05,159 --> 00:12:09,639 of nineteen eighty six. So I feel like there is some merit to the 149 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:13,879 theory that maybe Kathy and Becky were followed from the parking lot of the Yorktown 150 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:18,159 Pub onto the Parkway, But I feel like that's also there's only merit to 151 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,600 that theory if we can prove that they were there, and we can't really 152 00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:28,720 prove that they were there. The FBI did look hard at that idea that 153 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,600 two women were seeing at the Yorktown Pub, and I remember they were looking 154 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,879 for a particular waitress who had supposedly waited on them. I don't think they 155 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:43,600 were ever able to find that waitress or confirm did you wait on these two 156 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:50,519 women at the pub that evening. It is possible that if Kathy and Becky 157 00:12:50,639 --> 00:12:54,840 went to a secluded spot along the Colonial Parkway, that they could have been 158 00:12:54,879 --> 00:13:01,759 so involved in conversation or making out or whenever, that they might not have 159 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:07,240 paid attention to their surroundings sufficiently so that someone could have followed them and crept 160 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,399 up to the car. That doesn't seem to be a stretch to me. 161 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,879 We did also hear some speculation at one point that they may have been at 162 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,759 Nick Seafood Pavilion and not the Yorktown Pub, but again, I don't think 163 00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:26,159 we've ever found any solid evidence that they were there either. The one thing 164 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:31,039 that might make me push back a little bit against the Knicks theory is that 165 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:37,600 I guess you could get a hamburger at Nicks. The autopsy results showed hamburger, 166 00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:41,840 ground beef, lettuce those things in their systems, So that kind of 167 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:48,799 steers you towards burgers or tacos tacos or something like that. And as we've 168 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,720 talked about, Williamsburg thirty years ago is a very different place. Your late 169 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:01,720 night dining options are pretty limited. So you've got like McDonald's or a place 170 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:07,480 like Taco Bell yep, or you might have the Yorktown Pub, but it's 171 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:11,399 not a long list of places that you could go. And then, of 172 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,159 course, what you're looking for is a place that would have served ground beef. 173 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,799 The Yorktown Pub is definitely on that list. There are also a series 174 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,960 of delis in Williamsburg near the Wayman Mary Campus that they could have gone to, 175 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,639 but I feel like if you're headed out to the Parkway and that's your 176 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:31,759 end goal, probably the Yorktown Pub is a better bet. The other thing 177 00:14:31,879 --> 00:14:37,600 is that I've often wondered if two women gay women, would two lesbians go 178 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:41,600 to the Yorktown Pub what we've been told, And again, a lot of 179 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:48,519 people are looking at the Yorktown Pub in twenty twenty one and trying to offer 180 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,279 their perspective, which is valid, but that's not necessarily the same thing as 181 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:56,360 the Yorktown Pub now. Coming up on thirty five years ago, people that 182 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,480 were around back then have said to me they'd probably be fine. It was 183 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:05,120 a kind of a tourist trap during the day and still is yeah, and 184 00:15:05,159 --> 00:15:09,080 has had more of a bar scene at night. Yeah, definitely, two 185 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,559 women. Everybody probably would have been fine. Now. I don't think that 186 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:18,440 Kathy and Becky would have participated in public displays of affection or anything like that. 187 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:22,399 It's a very different world thirty five years ago than it is now. 188 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:26,519 I think they would have been very discreet. It's unfortunate that it's never been 189 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:31,759 confirmed that they were there, because I actually think they're pretty distinctive. You've 190 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:37,440 got two attractive women in their twenties, one with dark wavy hair to her 191 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,759 shoulders and one with long red hair past her shoulders. It's really unfortunate that 192 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,840 they were never able to confirm those potential sightings at the Yorktown Pub, because 193 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:54,320 that would at least give you a next stop along the trajectory of their evening. 194 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,519 They go from William and Mary leave the campus, go to get something 195 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,080 to eat, and then they end up on the Colonial Parkway, and it 196 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:06,080 would be really great to know what the other stops might have been along the 197 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,919 way. And for the remainder of that chapter of the book, there really 198 00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:15,799 is not too terribly much else that parallels the actual events of the Colonial Parkway 199 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:21,360 murders, and that goes the same for the following chapter, in which Scarpetta 200 00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:26,639 and Marino and Abbey Turnbull the reporter are just throwing out theories, talking about 201 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,120 the killers m trying to figure out essentially what fits. So there's very little 202 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,799 in chapters fourteen and fifteen that have anything to do with the real Colonial Parkway 203 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:42,200 murders, although in chapter fifteen you do start coming toward the end of the 204 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:48,360 book and Scarpetta and Abbey run into the man who does ultimately become the killer, 205 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,879 and that is bookstore owner named Steven Spurrier, who runs a small bookstore 206 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:57,399 called the Dealer's Room, which ties into the playing cards which were left at 207 00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:03,000 the crime scenes, so we get a long look into the life and habits 208 00:17:03,119 --> 00:17:07,000 of a serial killer. A lot of this. I would love, actually 209 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,799 to give this fictional killer to one of our profiler friends who say, does 210 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,200 this matchup with a real how a real killer would behave? As we talked 211 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,559 about in last week's episode, one of the things that has impressed me about 212 00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:26,359 Patricia Cornwell is that she does do a tremendous amount of research. And it's 213 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,799 very clear now that she's had this thirty plus year career, she has access 214 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:37,079 to some of the best minds in true crime. So when she offers these 215 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:44,839 theories and ideas that she puts forward in this book and in her other successful 216 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:51,240 novels, they're based on people that she knows real life experts. Yeah, 217 00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:59,480 so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the fictional characters and storylines that 218 00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:03,480 she puts forward much in the same way in this book. All that remains, 219 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,000 and we're comparing this to a real life case that we're familiar with, 220 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:14,440 I think there's a very good chance that most of her characterization of the Spurrier 221 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,680 character the killer in this particular book. I'll bet these are pretty well grounded 222 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:23,799 in reality. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after 223 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:29,200 this word from our sponsor. We're back here at Mind over Murder. She 224 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,880 certainly does lay out a litany of characteristics that would check off boxes. I 225 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:42,079 think he's a loner, never married, underachiever, but who is nonetheless arrogant 226 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,680 and aloof, someone who has no success with women and is angry about the 227 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,359 fact that he has no success with women. He's described as being voyeuristic and 228 00:18:52,480 --> 00:19:00,160 indulging in violent fantasies as well as violent pornography. His house is full of 229 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,400 maybe not anything that would directly put him at the crime scene, but his 230 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:11,480 house is described as having no fabrics so that you can't pass on fiber transfer. 231 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:15,279 He has half a dozen nylon warm up suits, which would also leave 232 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:18,119 a few fibers with the tags cut out of them. He's got boxes of 233 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,759 surgical shoe covers, decks of plane cards like she does actually lay him out 234 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,440 very well, I think, so. I gotta give her a lot of 235 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,599 credit for having put together a pretty creepy guy and someone that easily could be 236 00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:41,079 based on real life characters and real life serial killers. I think she learns 237 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,000 about a lot of these things from the access that she has to experts from 238 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,599 all of these fields now exactly, and for every other book of hers that 239 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,279 I have read, and I haven't read all of the Scarpett of stuff. 240 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:56,880 I haven't picked up a Scarpett of books and it's been a while. All 241 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,720 of her killers are very convincing. All of her research is thorough. She 242 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,880 really does a bang up job. I would imagine that if we ran this 243 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,480 by one of our profiler friends and said, Hey, how many boxes does 244 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,000 this check for you, they'd probably go, yeah, it sounds about right. 245 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,640 It's funny. Even from the hours that we've spent with the profilers that 246 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:22,279 we know, this guy does sound like the kind of individual that often fits 247 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:26,519 a profile of a serial killer. And it will be very interesting one of 248 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:30,039 these days when there is an arrest in this case, and there will be 249 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:37,240 an arrest in this case, if not multiple arrests, because I'm now increasingly 250 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,279 convinced that not all of the Colonial Parkway murders are directly related. I think 251 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:47,119 it will be interesting one day when we have arrests or an arrest, to 252 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:52,759 see how well the arrest he actually checks off some of the boxes that our 253 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,640 profiler friends have put forward to us. Very interesting point and that will be 254 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,519 hopefully in the near future. That is something that we look forward to for 255 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,400 sure. The final two chapters are really as a tailspin worthy of television. 256 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,440 It would be interesting. I know we've talked before about the fact there always 257 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,279 seems to be a Case Carpetta film or TV series in the works, but 258 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:21,000 never really actually hitting the airwaves. This is something that I would expect to 259 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,279 see in a movie or a TV series, a limited series. Even these 260 00:21:25,319 --> 00:21:30,960 final two chapters, it's a rollercoaster. Cornwall is exercising her creativity as a 261 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,559 writer and having some fun as an author. I think she wants to keep 262 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:40,599 you on the edge of your seat, sure that she keeps you there to 263 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,559 the very end. And so though twists and turns I think are part of 264 00:21:45,759 --> 00:21:51,279 something that she enjoys in terms of laying out the plot for a book like 265 00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:55,079 this. Oh yeah, and when I do my own writing, the best 266 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,759 part is always the big climactic seeing at the end, or you're typing as 267 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:02,000 fast as you can because you really want to get your characters through the scene. 268 00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:04,119 And it's great stuff. And she does a great job with the final 269 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:10,160 showdown, And even though we've spoiled the vast majority of the book for our 270 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:15,720 readers already, I'm not going to spoil the final full details for the final 271 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:18,720 showdown other than to say that there's a gun battle when a bunch of people 272 00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:25,720 die. That's as far as I'm willing to go. I'm not going to 273 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:29,200 tell you in between who and not going to tell you who bites the dust. 274 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,640 I don't know. You're giving away an awful lot. It is really 275 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,000 interesting, though, all these final revelations that come out about about the killer 276 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:41,960 and so how they ultimately catch him and all of that. I'll I will 277 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:45,680 leave for anybody who is not already disgusted by the fact that we have pretty 278 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:52,200 much spoiled this novel, the Scarpet survive. She's got another twenty four books. 279 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:57,839 Yeah, she's around for another twenty four books. Yeah, yeah, 280 00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:02,559 exactly. And is a good time to remind that, even though there are 281 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,240 arrests made in the fictional case, no arrests have ever been made for the 282 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,519 Colonial Parkway murders, any of them. Not one, I'm single one. 283 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:18,480 Scarpetta does reveal some interesting, little fun science facts in there, and again, 284 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:21,279 I don't want to spoil this too terribly much, but let's just say 285 00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:26,880 that there's some interesting fun facts about DNA and the fact that it is possible 286 00:23:26,319 --> 00:23:30,480 to have two different types of DNA in your body. I'm not going you're 287 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,039 looking confused because it's in my notes, but I'm not going to spoil it 288 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:36,880 because I think it's a great little it's a great little thing for people to 289 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,519 read into. But she gives you some fun science facts. Let's say it's 290 00:23:40,559 --> 00:23:44,519 interesting too, because what year did the book come out again, ninety two? 291 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,240 So DNA was a thing, but it was it was really being used 292 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:56,240 in a forensic capacity until the late eighties. So once again, here's Cornwall's 293 00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:03,920 intensive research and access to top experts allows her to be writing about DNA, 294 00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:10,680 which was relatively new in the early nineties. And yet she's able to write 295 00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:15,960 about DNA and the twists she creates around different types of DNA. Yeah, 296 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:23,599 at a time when DNA identification and testing was still quite new. She does 297 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,640 some fun, weird science stuff at the end, which of course is explained 298 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,440 beautifully by Scarpetta, who is the chief medical examiner. And it all has 299 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,640 to do with a plastic anemia and blood transfusions in bon Mara from family members 300 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,960 changing your DNA and all of that. I can't remember the full one details 301 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,839 the way that she described it, but it's pretty cool science. So anybody 302 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,039 who's interested in cool science, check out that final chapter. You're listening to 303 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,079 Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors, 304 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,519 we're back here at Mind over Murder. And then we do end up with 305 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,160 Cornwell leaving the story. I'm just a little bit of a mystery by sharing 306 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,160 that there is a possible Camp Perry connection to Steven Spurrier. After all, 307 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,039 see you get laid down those breadcrumbs earlier in the book. Yes, you 308 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,799 do get a nice little hint that maybe there is a darker conspiracy afoot with 309 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,599 regard to Camp Perry. I don't know. I don't buy it necessarily. 310 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,519 As I said last week, I actually think that the author is the origin 311 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:38,759 of that Camp Perry story which we've been hearing about for years. People are 312 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:45,480 insisting to us, Yes, it's a rogue agent from Camp Perry group who's 313 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:52,039 come out. They've gone over the edge and they're testing out their assassination techniques. 314 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:56,319 Yeah, finding the innocent citizens of Virginia. I think that is wholly 315 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:00,839 she is wholly responsible for that one. And it's fun. It's a fun 316 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,920 theory, although I guess if you take it seriously, it's not so fun. 317 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:10,160 But it's very unlikely that's actually taking place. I will admit that I 318 00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:15,839 found some of our discussion last week very interesting in that the idea that trainees 319 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:22,240 from Camp Perry would go out and try their techniques of surveillance, tracking people, 320 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,160 following people, it surreptitious photography and recording and so on, that they'd 321 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:33,759 go out and mix it up and go to Colonial Williamsburg and downtown Williamsburg and 322 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:37,200 the shopping centers in the area and that sort of thing, almost like homework 323 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,079 practice these techniques. I'm sure, as we talked about last week, the 324 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,480 citizenry wouldn't be thrilled about that. Yeah, did I think that was an 325 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:52,400 interesting idea. I'd meant that as someone that enjoys a good story as much 326 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,759 as the next person, I thought that was intriguing. Yeah, I don't 327 00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:02,279 know that I'd want to be that person who was followed and listened to and 328 00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:07,799 shadowed, but at the same time, get that is an interesting possibility. 329 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,119 Yeah, they'd go out on field drips. Since, yeah, we're gonna 330 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,480 we're gonna leave and go do some other stuff for a little bit, we're 331 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,519 gonna go off base and have a field drip. I do the idea of 332 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,920 and that I live pretty close to Camp Perry, I don't. Yeah, 333 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,599 it's one of those things that I'm not gonna let it keep me up at 334 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,920 night. But every once in a while it crosses my mind. I wonder 335 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,119 what they're doing behind that fence, or I wonder what they're doing following me 336 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,119 down. Yeah, the thought has crossed my mind a number of times. 337 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,240 The place where I think we get to a real stretch is then thinking that 338 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,240 trainees at Camp Paire are going to go out and kill innocent people who have 339 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,920 done nothing wrong. That part I think, Okay, now we're well into 340 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,319 the realm of fiction. Yeah, for sure, all that remains. It's 341 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:55,200 not the only fictional work about the Colonial Parkway murders, but it is the 342 00:27:55,279 --> 00:28:00,240 only one that has actually been strongly contested by the family of the victims as 343 00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:04,599 being too close to the facts of the case. So in nineteen ninety seven, 344 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,519 the Phelps family did take Patricia Cornwell to court. I was doing some 345 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,440 reading on various news articles about the lawsuit, and an article from the AP 346 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,680 said, according to missus Phelps, this is not fiction. Cornwell should not 347 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,599 be making money from someone else's misery, which I can wholly get behind, 348 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,960 and Bill, I'll get you to weigh in on that as well. I 349 00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:34,640 completely understand where they're coming from. It's very frustrating to feel that your loved 350 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:41,039 one's real life story and tragic ending is being used in such a thinly disguised 351 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:48,160 way. The Phelps family was extremely unhappy about the book and remain so. 352 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,519 They brought it up with me several years ago. As you mentioned, there 353 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:59,000 are other fictional books. There's a book called twenty three Miles that came out 354 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,079 in two thousands fifteen by Renee McKenzie, which is a work of lesbian fiction, 355 00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:08,440 which is a specialty. And at the same time, Renee based the 356 00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:15,000 book on the Colonial Parkway murders, specifically that of Kathy and Becky's. But 357 00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:19,440 she also contacted me and told me what she was doing and asked me if 358 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:25,240 she could ask a bunch of questions. She was a bartender at the Hershey 359 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,519 Bar, which was a very popular lesbian bar in Norfolk, which actually ties 360 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,720 in directly to Kathy and Becky's murder. There's a possibility that the Hershey Bar 361 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,960 may have played a small role in Kathy being investigated by the NCIS. So 362 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:48,119 when Rene McKenzie contacted me, it was a very friendly inquiry and she wasn't 363 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,559 just going to write a book without learning more about Kathy and Becky. She 364 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,319 knew who they were and had met them and probably had served drinks to them 365 00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:03,039 at the Hershey Bar. He approach was very respectful and she I'm sure if 366 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:07,200 I had objected to her writing the book, she wouldn't or basing the book 367 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:12,519 on Kathy and Becky's murder, she would not have moved forward in that example. 368 00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:18,920 I think there was a significant effort made to make sure that Kathy's family 369 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:23,400 was okay with it, and we were, And just to be clear, 370 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:30,039 so that we are very clear, Patricia Cornwell has never contacted your family or 371 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:33,960 any of the families that you're aware of. Correct, that's correct. While 372 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,480 you and I were going through this analysis of all that remains in revisiting these 373 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:42,400 details, and you did some outstanding research and thank you for that. You 374 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:52,839 reminded me just how closely that Jill Harrington and Elizabeth Mott characters also parallel Kathy 375 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,799 and Becky. I understand the frustration that the Phelps family and the Lurs. 376 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,240 Although I have not spoken with Allowers about this particular issue that they may have 377 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:08,240 felt, I completely get it. They felt violated. They were also suspicious, 378 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,799 and they said so in their court filings. They felt that it was 379 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:22,640 possible that Cornwell had used her job at the Commonwealth of Virginia Medical Examiner's Office 380 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:32,200 to make unauthorized use of the contents of what should be confidential medical files regarding 381 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,880 their deaths. Let me make sure that I actually quote from that directly so 382 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,359 that I can make sure that we're clear on this. So this is again 383 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,279 from the ap associated press piece. The lawsuit contends that when Cornwell worked in 384 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:52,920 the Medical Examiner's office, she obtained autopsy details that were never made public because 385 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,880 the cases unsolved, and was never prosecuted. According to the lawsuit, the 386 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:02,880 autopsy report stated that as phelps eyeballs were missing and two front teeth were knocked 387 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,240 out and found next to her body. The two bodies were found positioned arm 388 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:13,440 in arm, faced down. The couple contents those are among the details contained 389 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,640 in Cornwell's book. I can't say definitively what was in their autopsy report because 390 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,880 I've never seen it, but that does appear to be the kind of level 391 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,960 of detail that was not made public, and I think this is what set 392 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,480 the Phelps family off. And as we talked about last week as well, 393 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:40,359 the whole thing with the examination of the bones by the Smithsonian Institute, all 394 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:47,640 of those things were so directly, precisely duplicated in what is supposed to be 395 00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:54,720 a fictional book, and the description of the crime scene and all of those 396 00:32:54,759 --> 00:33:01,880 details were so spot on. There's no way it's a coincidence. So I 397 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,519 understand the Phelps family's frustrations. Ultimately, they were not able to prevail in 398 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:14,039 their court proceedings, partly because it's very difficult to prove access. Yeah, 399 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:19,240 but when as we took a look at the book very carefully over these past 400 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,559 couple of weeks, I was struck by how many parallels you found, Kristen. 401 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:29,440 There were a lot, there were, I know, And interestingly though, 402 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,279 I did want to note that, Yeah, here's where things do get 403 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:37,519 a little marky. There are no missing eyeballs and missing front teeth in the 404 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:40,759 book, like that is not a thing that is mentioned. It does say 405 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:44,920 that Deborah Harvey is missing chief, but it is not her front ones and 406 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,000 they were not found next to the bobby. And there's never any mention of 407 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:52,000 eyeballs. So there is This is the part where it's like who got the 408 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,559 details wrong? Did the reporter get the details wrong? Did Cornwall get who 409 00:33:55,599 --> 00:33:59,759 got the details wrong? Here? But there are definitely some things that were 410 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:01,960 can tended in the court filing that do not appear in the book. Things 411 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,200 that appear in the book that don't appear in the court filing. It's murky, 412 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,440 as you say, though, And I'm not taking a shot at the 413 00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:15,599 reporter or the Associated Press. We're not looking at the court filings themselves that 414 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,719 we're looking at a quote from Jewel Phelps missus Phelps, Yeah, the mom 415 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,519 whom I know to the AP. As you say, it gets a little 416 00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:30,440 murky. And the Washington Post did do an article about not only this lawsuit, 417 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:36,679 but about in nineteen ninety seven there were two other authors who had lawsuits 418 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,239 filed against them for very similar reasons. Janet Daley, who is a romance 419 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,199 writer, was one of them, and Joe Klein, who wrote Primary Colors, 420 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:49,199 which everybody remembers as being a pretty thinly veiled knock at Bill Clinton, 421 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,480 you think. And both of them had lawsuits filed against them, and so 422 00:34:54,599 --> 00:35:00,239 the Post did do an article about that, called Crimes of Passion, and 423 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,079 it did have this to say, the accusations against miss Cornwell are murkier. 424 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,559 There is no legal basis, at least in America, for the notion that 425 00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:14,159 people own the rights to events that have happened to them, or that they 426 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:19,880 can sue to control the imaginative use of such events in fiction. The exception 427 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,559 is cases where a real person is clearly recognizable. So then I guess the 428 00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:30,480 question becomes, are Anna Maria and Daniel so clearly recognizable in this that you 429 00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:34,639 would have a case. There's a lot of things that center around the right 430 00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:39,840 to publicity, but most of those things also are built around public figures. 431 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,679 Yeah, so if you wrote about somebody who was a fifties rock star with 432 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,719 dark hair slicked back who sang about the Blue Moon of Kentucky, people might 433 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:58,400 expect that you're actually referring to Elvis Presley in that example, because Anna Maria 434 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,280 Phelps in Daniel lower were not public figures, and most people wouldn't know what 435 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,880 a fictionalized version of their lives or in this case, their tragic death would 436 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:17,400 constitute. I understand that the creative world, authors, etc. Scriptwriters and 437 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:24,880 so on could easily slide on whether or not. If the standard is would 438 00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:30,760 the average person recognize them, they might be able to get away under that 439 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,960 standard. As we talked about with the Joe Harrington and Elizabeth Mott characters in 440 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,440 the book, Well, I challenged you a couple of times and said, 441 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,599 oh, come on, they've barely changed the detail. This is Kathy Thomas 442 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,719 and Rebecca Doowski without a doubting William and Mary in the whole nine yards of 443 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:52,719 Joel Harrington was a top salesperson for a computer company computer company, whereas my 444 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:59,440 sister had left the Navy and become a top salesperson for a stock brokerage. 445 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:05,280 Okay, a few details are changed, but it's pretty close, and I 446 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,760 think in total, when you look at the entire story of the Colonial Parkway 447 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,760 murders, particularly what was known in nineteen ninety two or so when Cornwall would 448 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:20,119 have been writing the book, I think where Cornwall starts to push the envelope 449 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,880 is a lot of things that Cornwall was writing about had not been made public. 450 00:37:24,039 --> 00:37:29,320 A lot of this stuff that has come out partly because of this podcast, 451 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,239 the television series, the many television, radio and podcast interviews that I've 452 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,920 done in other family members have done. More details have come out about the 453 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:45,599 Colonial Parkway murders in the thirty years since back then in the early nineties when 454 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:49,800 Cornwall was writing and researching this book. I think there's a tremendous amount of 455 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:55,000 detail that she includes in her fictionalized version, calling it all that remains that 456 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,719 had not been made public at that point, and that's probably le an area 457 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:06,480 of some vulnerability. And certainly, as you mentioned earlier in this podcast, 458 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,519 she's never publicly stated it's not the Colonial Parkway murders. And I've even said 459 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:16,239 once or twice in previous episodes of this podcast. I defy her to do 460 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,960 that, because I would publicly challenge her on that. I think she's way 461 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,079 too savvy to get caught up in saying something like that. I think she's 462 00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:30,119 rather just quietly go on about her business of being a successful author and not 463 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:37,320 engaging in debate about whether or not this particular book is based on this particular 464 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,440 case, but in my mind there's no question. So that's Bill Thomas's final 465 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,920 thoughts on the matter, and here are mine, essentially. I'm still at 466 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,559 the end of this. I'm still very conflicted about this book. I came 467 00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:53,719 to it at a super young age, like eleven or twelve, because I 468 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,920 was interested in the Colonial Parkway murders case. It did not give me correct 469 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,599 information about the case that I knew at that point, but it did spark 470 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,440 my interest in it, which continued it a low flame in the back of 471 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:16,800 my fevered, crime ridden brain until I reached out to you in twenty sixteen. 472 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,079 I think it was Wow, it's been a while, and when was 473 00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:24,280 no start doing some work on this case. I can't bring myself for that 474 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,400 reason to holly dislike the book, because actually it's because of the book that 475 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,519 I'm here, and I wouldn't trade I'll be sentimental for a minute. I 476 00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:37,840 would not trade my relationship with you or any of the other family members for 477 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,559 anything. This has been an incredible, amazing, moving, emotional journey and 478 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:45,960 I would not give that up for anything. So we have to give Produce 479 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:51,079 Cornwell some credit for that. I gotta give her some credit for that, 480 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,400 and so I can't bring myself to dislike this book. She's a great writer, 481 00:39:55,639 --> 00:40:00,960 she's a great researcher. I've enjoyed almost every anything else she's written. 482 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,079 She did some crappy stuff with one of her characters that I did not approve 483 00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:07,760 of, but that's just me. Do I see that there are issues with 484 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,440 the book? Knowing what I do now about the crime scenes and the pain 485 00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:15,440 that it causes those families, particularly the Phelps and Thellours, I see those 486 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,679 issues. Do I think she included details that are strikingly similar to the crime 487 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,760 scenes in the book on purpose? Yeah? Do, But as you said, 488 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,960 you can't prove or disprove intent, so we're never going to know what 489 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,280 she was thinking or doing at that point. And you can't prove or disprove 490 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,320 access, so we're not going to know how much she did or didn't have. 491 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,519 So do I see that there are issues? Yeah? Do? I 492 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:45,119 still like the book? Kind of? I feel bad saying that, but 493 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:47,719 like less now than I did. But I still do like the book. 494 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,519 And am I still a fan. Haven't read anything of hers in a really 495 00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:55,400 long time, so I don't know. Maybe I'll pick up Autopsy when it 496 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,000 comes out, it's supposed to be pretty interesting. How do I feel about 497 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:07,119 this book? Man, That's where I'm at. Maybe I don't know. 498 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,440 I sort of like it, but there's issues with it. But do I 499 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,119 still kind of like it? Yeah? I guess that's about as murky er 500 00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:17,480 response as I can come up with. But it is so troublesome trying to 501 00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:22,559 deal with the feelings about this book. It's very cut and dried for you. 502 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,639 It always has been. In fact, one of the first things that 503 00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:29,119 I asked you about when we started talking was how did you feel about the 504 00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,320 book? And of course you snorted derisively and you were like, oh, 505 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:37,119 it's worth seventy five cents, which is what I paid for it. But 506 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,639 I still have real trouble with this book and what it presents to me, 507 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,440 both as a book lover and now as somebody who's very invested with this case. 508 00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:50,320 So I don't know. It's difficult, And as always I remind you 509 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,679 this book is available at your public library. Yes it is. It is, 510 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:55,519 so feel free to borrow it, but you don't have to buy it. 511 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,960 And feel free, of course, at any point to us your thoughts, 512 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:07,159 your insights, your arguments anything with regard to our series of episodes on 513 00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:09,239 All That Remains, because we would love to hear from all of you what 514 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,880 you think about this book. And next week we get back into the Colonial 515 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:20,280 Parkway murders and further exploration of true crime. Yes, thank you so much 516 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,320 for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. 517 00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:37,639 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 518 00:42:38,199 --> 00:42:44,159 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by 519 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:49,639 Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is 520 00:42:49,679 --> 00:42:53,880 distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 521 00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:59,199 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 522 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,920 Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 523 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:08,079 Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.