We're back with another edition of The Federalist for Radio hour. I'm Emily Tshinsky,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the
show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on X at FDR
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X as opposed to follow us on Twitter, because it just depends on the
day. We are joined today by Kristin Hawkins. Once again, we're so
glad to have Kristin here. She's, of course the president of Students for
Life and Students for Life Action, a pro life warrior if ever there were
one. Kristin, thank you for coming back on the show. Yes,
thanks for having me. Of course, we're talking on Wednesday, so we
are less than twenty four hours separated from the disappointing although not surprising results on
Issue one in Ohio. So, Kristen, just before we kind of dive
in all of the different dynamics, I want to ask right now how you
absorbed, how you have been absorbing the results from Ohio. Any big takeaways
from you that have come up in the last twenty four hours. I mean,
I'm full of takeaways here for the pro life movement and most importantly for
Republicans and the consultants class there in Washington, d C. Who apparently doesn't
know the definition of insanity. So yeah, there's a lot of takeaways.
I mean, you're right, we're disappointed, but it was not a surprise
the outcome in Ohio. You know, we knew going into this fight there
was going to be an uphill battle. We knew August, for example,
when the first issue one came up, which was the question for the ballot
referendum of whether you know fifty percent was all that was going to be needed
or could we used could should that be changed to be sixty percent which would
somewhat prevent mob rule in Ohio and these outside agents from flooding Ohio airwaves with
miss leading TV ads, which we knew was going to happen. And we
saw very quickly then that it was pretty much the her life movement that was
it. It was it was cricket from the GOP and the GOP establishment,
and that's what we saw again, and I think you know that's was extremely
frustrating because when you think about or even when you look at the numbers that
were coming out of Ohio the New and Virginia and Virginia Republicans, you know,
they were out spent nine to one in Ohio. The numbers I'm looking
at right now say three to one, and I wagered much higher. Every
single race that Republicans lost, they were outspending. The only race that was
one last night was in the Mississippi domantorial election. That's the only one w
Republicans out fundraised the Democrats. And so you know, that's a challenge when
you have the Republican Party and the whole apparatus of the party silent and doing
this head and the stand approach when it comes to abortion, because that impacts
fundraise, and it packs the grassroots, and it packs momentum. And you
know, what we've heard for what the last eighteen months since Dobbs hasn't been
really this getting Democrats on the defense of Democrats, forcing Democrats to actually say
how extreme their position on abortion really is. What we've been asked the whole
conversation in the media and you know, in the in the private conversations within
the Republican Party and conservative movement has been how much abortion will of the GOP
will the pro life movement accept, as compared to how much abortion will Democrats
allow? That script has to be flipped. But it's more than just the
pro life movement that needs to be demanding this. We need our elected officials
leading this charge because that's you know, when we think about leadership, it
all rises and follows on leadership. Yet the leadership of our party has been
silent when it comes to this issue. It's a self fulfilling prophecy of the
GP consulting class. It tells us that abortion is a losing issue. The
candidates, they're candidate who prays them, you know, tens of thousands of
dollars, doesn't speak on abortion. The candidate then loses because their opponent,
the Democrat, defined them on the issue. And then the consultant says,
see, I told you abortion was a losing issue. They need to stop
this nonsense. I was asked earlier today in an interview, if you know
I really wanted the Republicans to double down at this point hell. I just
want them to down. I just want them to be down with pro life
messaging, to be very clear and direct what the issue you know, for
example, in Ohio, what issue one would have been. You know,
we were on campuses having these conversations. We weren't talking about parental rights.
The other side, they're selling freedom. That's their product. It's not abortion.
They don't want anyonet to talk about abortion. They know it's a loser.
Every time you pull later abortions, it's still a loser. Uh,
they're selling. That's what they're selling is freedom, and so we're you know,
we're selling can't just be preserving parental rights, especially to our demographic if
young people, which you know, majority of whom don't even say they want
to become parents, which, by the way, is like a massive civilization
crisis we're going to face in a couple of decades. But for them,
even the pro choice students we were interacting with were working them and change our
minds this issue by just simply exposing how far issue one it was, how
extreme it was. Even pro choice students, when they were able to look
at the texts, have the conversation, ask the questions, agreed, Yes,
it goes too far. And you know, the exappolling we conducted yesterday
with our Institute for Pro Life Advancement in front of a number of polls proves
those young people who go to know, they got to know because they were
against extremism of abortion that issue one would allow, not because of some other
you know, parental rights or whatever issue the Republican consultants wanted us to use.
Okay, so I cannot wait to kind of dig into even like even
deeper into all of that. There's so many questions about issue one. Before
we jump over there, I want to ask how you think Glenn Youngkin handled
the issue of abortion in Virginia Because the narrative that's starting to congeal in built
wast circles today is that Glenn Youngkins did what the pro life movement counts candidates
to do. And you still, yeah, I'm gonna stop you right there,
and we need to stop we use the mainstream media from allowing that narrative.
Can you name a pro life grassroots organization or person who's ever advocated that
they just want to allow nine now, but ten abortions to happen fifteen weeks
is not a strategy of the pro life movement never has been a strategy of
the movement. It was a tactic that legislators in Mississippi developed to send a
challenge to the Supreme Court to challenge roversus way with tactic. By the way
that the you know, some inside the Beltway pro life consultants all disagreed with
and told Mississippi not to do Mississippi one ahead did it, We obviously sall
row reverse And somehow it has developed into this like, oh, this is
what the pro life movement wants, never in the pro lict movement's history.
And we advocated for a fifteen week, four month prevention Act on abortion that
would allow more than nine owvid ten abortions to continue. I think what we
saw in Virginia is demoralizing pro life voters doesn't work. Trying to force value
voters to quote like make peace with more than nine out ten abortions makes no
one happy. It's certainly not going to turn out pro life firs to vote
because no one, no one who's pro life wants that. Why would we
be fighting to allow nine out to abortions to be to the left of France
in polling shows we want you know, the prolarge movement once heartby abortion protection
limits or better life a conception, and that's certainly you know, a fifteen
week you know, quote quote proposal or compromise is not going to help win
over pro abortion voters who advocate for abortion to be without limits, to be
you know, limitless in our states. It literally doesn't win anyone over.
And I mean, I mean, it's it's kind of like, I don't
know, I'm thinking about twenty twelve a little bit. It's kind of like
admit Romney approach to the pro life movement, and no one wants Met Romney.
Nobody's ever really wanted Romney, I mean really, I mean he's probably
a lovely human being. But in terms of a politician, I know,
no one think about like whening Republicans began to win when you had President Trump
in twenty sixteen, who is unapologetic in his views, because we had what
we had Met Rodney, we had John McCaine before that, and it was
like this consensus, Oh, Republicans are going to be these moderates in the
room, who is drawn to this quote unquote consensus position on these issues.
It's a life or death issue. This is not you know what's so devastating
about what happened in Ohio is this is not just like tax policy. My
goodness, I wish it was just about you know, dollars on the line.
This is not about just dollars. This is human These are human lives,
tons of thousands of human lives that were on the line yesterday that will
be lost because as Virginia, you know, Ohio voters were misled or mistakenly
believed the you know, the laws and the rhetoric of the abortion lobby that
this wasn't really that bad, it wasn't really that extreme. They're going to
come to have buyers remorse on that, just like folks in Michigan are having
right now. But I just I just wanted to stop. Sorry, I
didn't mean to be rude. I didn't want to stop you off. But
it's so frustrating when when I've been I've been reading these articles. There was
like last week, there was like a National Catholic Registered article. There was
a I think a Chuck Todd Heather article in NBC. Uh, there was
an I forget that, there was a third article. It's like all one
day that somehow the pro life movement had had this like meeting and coalesced around
fifteen weeks as a strategy when it's not a strategy that the prolact movement has
ever advocated for. And I mean, I'm I'm out there talking with pregnancy
center leaders, grassroots activists who are out praying it from abortion facilities, students
who are leading our students for life groups are the ones having real conversationations with
those most targeted by the abortiondustry. And literally no one is clamoring for a
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PG. Thirteen. That's really interesting, for I have had zero caffeine today,
just for can you imagine caffeine today? I truly would be frightened for
your your heartbreak, but all the listeners would be like slowed down, We
can't hear anything. She said, You know who needs caffeine when you have
BELTWEG consultants to rag on And let's dig into that, Kristen, because in
just about every race that is being blamed on abortion, Republicans were really outspent.
And we're talking like well outspent. In Ohio, the RNC sort of
famously didn't put as much as much money into the Yunkin race in the waning
weeks, so the last few weeks of the election as they some people wanted
them to. So that's a huge that's a huge question is and I was
asking. I've asked other people in the pro life movement, particularly about issue
one. We are talking about something even the Toledo Blade said he support,
as they put it, a woman's right to choose. But this is too
radical for us, This is poorly worded. This opens up the door all
kinds of other things. So even when you have that happening. People couldn't
get and I'm asking this as a question. It's largely what I've heard,
but it seems incredible to me they couldn't get conservative donors to put money into
Ohio. Yeah, yeah, I mean this, like I said this the
beginning of this. That is the price we pay for having a lackluster GOP
and not having R and C leadership on this, and not having US senators
you know who, by the way, for decades, have and more than
happy to accept our endorsements on our volunteers because, by the way, you
know who volunteers on campaigns the most, it's pro lifers. Our campaign dollars.
As soon as roe Fell suddenly decided that they you know, abortion was
no longer a federal issue for them, even though that's not what Dobbs said,
This is the price that we're paying for that because you know, when
you think about those big dollar donors, which certainly, Students Life Action is
not funded by the big GOP dollars. I would love to you can make
the donation anytime. The Students Life Action gladly accept your funds to help us
eradicate abortion. But those big donor dollars take their cues from the elected officials,
from the party leaders, and when they're fine, in this case,
not getting involved until do you think it was too late by the time door
Yeah, I mean I think they're definitely big and involved. Senor Vance was
involved. The question, I mean, I I would have to ask.
I would feel more comfortable asking, you know, my team members who are
on the ground, you know how every day, how much involved were They
kind of seemed to me from someone who's sitting, you know, ten miles
from Ohio today to kind of be a little late. I mean, I
was grateful that they did get involved, But the question was how much money
was raised, How much money was raised from the big goop mega donors on
this issue. I know, from someone who raises money myself for Students Life
America and Student Life Action, it was an uphill battle grassroots donors. We're
not excited about Ohio's Issue one. They felt that it was that it was
going we were going to lose. And that's because of that self fulfilling prophecy
I talked about of you know, when the party and the consultants say abortions
a loser, or these valid initiatives are insurmountable, there's nothing we can do.
We're going to stay away. The result is donors, I mean,
donors aren't stupid, they're you know, this is an investment for them,
and so they're much more likely to invest, for example, you know,
on our nonprofit side, where we're going on campuses and starting pro life groups
and all four of your college campuses. That makes much more sense to them
of than well, you know, get you investing in a battle that they're
being told by the GOP establishment is a loser. You know, President Trump,
for example, had gotten involved in Ohio, had had spoken out,
had done a rally in Ohio, made the case that would have, I
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Yeah no, that sounds right to me, And you know I was.
I was again. I was talking to somebody on the left today who made
a point about where the I think they were having a hard time knowing where
the pro life movement stands, where the sort of uh, you know,
constantly of pro life groups stand on these questions. And it reminded me actually
in some way. And I'm curious what you think of this comparison, Kristen
of repeal and replace. You know, the Republicans talk for ten years about
repeal and replace because Obamacare is widely, wildly unpopular. Republicans say we are
against Obamacare, we are against Row. When push comes to shove, it
turns out there's absolutely no consensus on what the replacement to ROW, what the
replacement to Obamacare actually is, And in the absence of that, Republicans get
defined by Democrats, and then Republicans let people suffer. People do suffer because
of an absence of Republican leadership on this question, where do you think the
pro life movement should stand on the sort of I hate to say replacement plan,
but post plan. Well, I mean, I think we've been very
clear. You know, I had a memo out actually the day the DABS
SISU was leaked May second, we had a I had a memo that I
had sent to Capitol Hill, which I actually got some angry calls from the
establishment from I remember where I was at. I was at the French bistro
place that charges too much money for scrambled eggs. But no, we were
We released this letter to the Hill telling the Hill and Republicans on the Hill
we are not in favor of a fifteen week or paying capable national push like
the polling is the same for a Heartbeat Prevention Act. It needs to be
you know, when you're pushing and we're trying to move this overton window and
human humanize the child in the womb, we need to be very clear and
we need to be at heart beat or better. And I remember got a
really nasty phone call and little did I know later that night Dobbs was going
to be I literally had someone common It was like, you knew Dobbs was
going to be leaked. I'm like, how did I know it's going to
be leave? It was, yeah, it was me. I was in
Houston, Texas, But so how I did it? You know? No,
it was And that was our messaging was that you know, we saw
this coming down because we were starting to have conversations because you know, we
were there at the core. Our students slept out night all night in the
night of the hearing, and we had been at the court every decision day
since March waiting for this decision, and so we were pretty confident going into
June that we were going to get a good decision and we wanted to hit
the ground running of what is the pro life movement asking for what's the pro
life movement demanding on this issue? And so we wanted to get that out
there be very clear. It was no one was ever advocating for fifteen weeks.
It was a vehicle in Mississippi, but that is not where we stand.
And so yeah, I mean we were out there, we were messaging,
we were getting that message out to our legislators, but they, you
know, either didn't hear us or didn't want to hear us and took that
you know, as Margine Dana Poster calls at the ostrich approach of the the
head and the safe and approach to this issue, which is a loser.
It's a loser for the GOP and it's certainly a loser for the proluct movement,
and most importantly, it's a loser for the children. Hey y'all,
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you work in this space every day, So I don't presume that this theory
is right, and I'm just curious for your take on it, because you've
spent years actually thinking about this. My theory is that when Republicans do the
Mitt Romney response on exceptions for rape and incest, it sends a message to
voters or it concedes part of this argument that you don't really believe it's a
human life. What you know that you fundamentally, at the end of the
day, you don't truly believe it. And I guess I'm curious, Kristen
if you think you know Lyla Rose yesterday said we got the through life move
needs sister throw out the playbook. I think is the quote that she had
is some of this what you guys are thinking about, you know, just
really counseling Republicans to go in a very different direction. I mean, I
think morally, you and we are in the same place on those questions,
but Republicans certainly aren't. So as you're thinking about these things, how different
does it need to get. Yeah, we've already thrown out the playbook and
Rid Biler has decided that for her team because we did that when we started
Students for Life Action. And that's the reason we started Students Life Action was
knowing that Roe is going to come down and our movement wasn't ready and that
we had to change the way the game were being played because we have to
think about it just shally we talk about the spending issue. This is a
David versus Glath boutl and I would love to think that at some point we
will get the big dollar, mega dollar dollars, but that's not where we're
at right now. And the challenge is we as a movement, we try
to defeat Goliath using glythe tactics. And you know Malcolm Gladwell's book, he's
an author of Taking Point, but also wrote another book called David Versus Glyath.
It's very insightful because it starts with the biblical battle of David versus Lithe,
and then it also goes and looks at historical David versus life battles.
And when he surminds us is that about sixty percent of time the David's can
win in these these fights. We always like to think it's like a million
to one shop, but it's not actually true. But he lists, you
know, principles that David's have to deploy in order to win. And one
of those principles is David's have to fight like a David. You know,
you've got to have your sling and your smooth stones. You can't fight with
armor and swords versus the glide because you're always going to lose. And I
think that was when I was writing a letter I got early this morning before
the kids woke up, and I was writing the letters to the product generation.
You know, so many of them were so upset about the loss yesterday
because for them, this is really like a first major loss that they've ever
been experienced the product movement. Little do they know for the product movement,
I've experienced tons of losses. You know, we had forty nine years O
ro versus why we're certainly not going to go anywhere. I was writing this
letter to them about what they need to be thinking through and challenging themselves as
we move forward. And my question was, what is our slang? What
are our stones? What are those tactics that we need to get better about
deploying or create? Throwing that you know as a lot of said playbook out
the window, but fighting this battle as the the events that we are.
And I think you know some of those tactics, we know. Some of
those tactics we still don't know. And we've got to find those tactics.
And we've got to be you know, creative well and be willing to fail
and find those tactics that we can use because somebody trying to out fundraise them
to take out more tv ads isn't going to work, certainly not going to
work. And right now, but within now, the administer information is out
there. Like something we saw in August, for example, we had like
thirty to fifty students at any given time who were on social media and Ohio
and their goal was just to continue to pumble the facts about the extremism Issue
one, get into conversations. And then there was an artificial intelligence bought that
was deployed with some groups in August on issue one. They wanted to measure
the conversations that were happening in social media, and one of my friends sent
me this report because this was really interesting. Uh, student's life was the
highest one, and I was like, what, Like, how you know
students for life I had the most was generating the most conversations in the state
of Ohio about issue one. We beat up the New York Times, ABC,
NBC, all the mainstream media, UH, with like these thirty students
that I was paying zero dollars for it, by the way, that I
had on WhatsApp chat. And so the question I had in my mind is
like, man, can you imagine if you had it? We had a
thousand students doing that, and I was throwing a little bit of money their
way to spend you know, an hour of their time instead of going to
their work study job every day to get on TikTok, to get you know,
to produce the reels where they could be engaging in the culture and fighting
this on the very grassroots of that's what the left does so well. But
we just spend our time thinking about we got to raise the money because we've
got to spend the money on TV ads. But that's not that's not always
go work. For example, we had a support to reach out to this
weekend who was distraught. He works for pretty big news digital agency, and
it was distraught that there was no SEO Search Engine optimization ads running from the
pro life movement in Ohio. So if people were googling Issue one, they
weren't getting pro life sources, they were getting traffic to a pro abortion website.
So we just took this the Hio Senates website, you know, explaining
the extremis of issue one, what the intentional bank language of Issue one was
put together. A website got some you know, he donated some couple of
thousand dollars. I didn't have any more money demon put towards At the point,
we just started running ads and the results were great. I mean,
I you know, but this is the type of stuff that we've got to
be we've got to be thinking about. I mean, we had tens of
thousands of people that clicked on our in the last thirty well gosh, it
was the last thirty hours of the before the polls closed. Tens of thousands
of people were clicking our ad who were going to Google trying to figure this
out, and we weren't even there. The watch dot on Wall Street podcast
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Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That is incredibly depressing. I mean,
that is that's incredibly depressing. And I guess, Chris, and my
question is how after you're more than a year since row we've had you know,
the reason this is on the out in Ohio is because of Michigan.
They're now trying this. They're going to try this in Arizona, Nevada,
all these places, as you will know, what does it take? I
mean, how does the Republican already snap out of this and try you know,
in prepare when we've seen the cycle left, cycle after cycle in the
last at least a year and a half, you were warning about it beforehand.
If you optimistic that anything changes, well, I think the Republicans will
have to engage in twenty twenty four because we have a presidential election to win,
right, we have a US Senate on the line, so at some
regards we're going to have funding going into these states. The Democrats have nothing
for twenty twenty four. This is why they're all in on this issue,
right because the former president, who has what like eighty indictments or something crazy
right now, is leading in all the polls against Joe Biden. And they
know they're in trouble when it comes to Bionomics, and I mean everything they
they're in trouble, even their own bay is in charge. I mean,
they're in trouble with their own base because you have young people now who are
openly support supporting Hamas and young people who are saying they're not going to vote
for Democrats because they support Israel. I mean, their base is imploding on
this, on the war in the Middle East, which is a huge problem
for them. So they're hoping abortion is this rallying cry that keeps their base
together, keeps their base excited about going out and voting for Sleepy Joe.
So I think that for us is, you know, we know what they're
trying to do. We, on the other hand, will have viable,
articulate, youthful candidates who are going to be running for office, who are
going to want to win, who are going to want to put money into
their campaigns. GOP mega donors aroun to support those campaigns. So that should
help us in twenty twenty four. To be honest with you, but that
RNC GOOP must learn their lesson and understand at not talking about abortion or coming
up with this like crazy. Oh you know, quote unquote compromise that is
not compromise that allows more than nine now ten abortions to continue is not going
to be a political winner for them. Kristin Hawkins, you have had a
very busy day, There's no question about it. So thank you very much.
I appreciate you taking the time. Obviously Kristin is again the president of
Students for Life and Students for Life Action. Just appreciate your time today,
Kristin, Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk to you
only absolutely you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm
Emily Drishinsky, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with
them. Until then, your lovers of freedom and anxious for the friends