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nowelly on here we are. It is the sixth day of September. Is
it the sixth I think it is, let's see it is. It's the
sixth day of September, or allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar.
And this is a show you might have been looking for. It's the
Ochilly Effect and I'm live here on a Wednesday, and it's definitely a wildcard
swore tonight. If you're hearing me on the live stream, it's great.
I know we went to air real late about quarter after or well more more
than quarter after jeez. Anyways, it doesn't matter if you're hearing the podcast
or if you're catching the video. Now, I was going to have my
my friend here on the video directly, but there was a little bit of
an issue with technical stuff and sound and all that. So this time we're
not going to see him on video, but I've got him on audio.
His name is Alex Harris. Now somebody might say, hey, I might
recognize that name, and others might say I have no idea who the heck.
That is no problem either way. He's conducting research though, And he's
conducting research and a specified area regarding the JFK assassination, and that is the
photographic evidence. Okay. I had a fairly long conversation with him on the
phone just the other day and was introduced to the idea of this young man
by people that are organizing the Lancer conference. Guess why he'll be presenting.
And I'm fairly certain he is the youngest presenter ever to go to any of
the Lancer conferences, maybe any of the conferences on the Kennedy assassination and actually
present reminds me of my own story because I started when I was still in
high school. Taking a look at this event seriously, now, does that
mean that this kid is anything like me? No, he's not, because
he's not Juleman of Delinquent and he's younger. Okay, So at the age
of thirteen, here he is, and he's going to be fourteen when he
presents at Lancer this year. Really fascinated at how much he has his stuff
together regarding the assassination is knowledge. The historiography of the photographic evidence alone is
better than most of the people I run into claim to have some sort of
expertise in general on the assassination already. Plus he's looking to assemble archives,
this and that. Maybe he's going to tell you a bunch more, but
first we're going to find out a little bit about his background and how he
got into the case right here on the show. And before I even get
to that, Alex, how are you doing tonight? I'm doing good.
It is really good to have you on. I'm really happy to have you
on strange situation. I never thought and could never get, say, my
own kids to take a look at the Kennedy assassination as teenagers. When I
was a teenager, I was definitely all alone looking at the case. None
of my friends who were musicians, none of my friends who were also well,
some of them were hoodlums and such. They were not all good kids,
okay, and hardly anybody wanted to know about the Kennedy assassination or any
of that crap. I was a nut onto myself, and I'm being blunt
here. You First of all, you're you're a nice guy. You're you're
a level guy. You don't sound like the average thirteen year old to me
to begin with, and clearly you're not because you're into the assassination, so
let's let's go for it. And I don't even know the details of this
story, guys, I'm gonna learn this along with you, Like how he
actually got into the case. I kind of asked a couple of questions about
it, but didn't really get the full story. So I'm gonna let Alex
just tell you. So you're ready to roll and tell us exactly how it
is. You just decided that this was a big point of interest for you.
I mean, in your own words, go for it. Yeah,
I got I've knew. I'm known for a while about the assassination. I've
known that it happened. It wasn't until about towards the end of when I
was in fifth grade that I really started getting into it. I just so
happened to be on YouTube and I watched the Subpreterer film the first time,
and something about it just got me interested in the case, and I just
got looked at I looked into it a little bit because I had never looked
into it that much before. And well, so what you're saying, yeah,
So what you're saying is it's just you stumbled across the Supruder film on
YouTube, and that's it. I mean, you just saw that and you
went, Okay, I know about the assassination, but now I've seen the
Supruder film. Something is wrong with this idea? Is something is wrong with
the image I'm seeing. I mean, what was it that grabbed you?
Just like wow? That's it. That's what people have talked about over the
years that I was sort of familiar with. Yeah, okay, fair enough.
So what what came next? I mean, you saw the Supprter film.
That's striking. It was available on YouTube. By the way, do
you know what channel or what version of the Supruter film you were looking at?
Because there were a few on on YouTube, I believe. I think
a lot of people have launched this version. It's for some reason. A
French magazine posted a version straight from the MPI digitation decizations. It's a very
low quality, but it's is acceptable, right, So what you're telling me
is that the French magazine, which by the way, I can't remember the
name or probably pronounced it myself, but you're you're saying the MPI version.
Now, for the uninitiated out there, we are talking about the home video
version that was released, most likely under the title image of an assassination,
and it was done through vhs actually in the late eighties, and MPI released
a series of documentaries and other things related to the jfkks during that time.
But quite famously, there was a reconstruction, a scanning the better qualities of
bruder film. For a long time was contained on that videotape, which I
don't even know if they turned it into a DVD, because it was popular
for a bit at your local blockbuster for sure back in the day. But
there it is yet transferred onto YouTube by some French magazine. I recall that
video. I don't know if it's up anymore. Actually I think it is
okay. But but either way, I mean, there are many different versions.
Some people have reconstructed them, restabilized them in different ways, shown us
the Sprocket holes not the Sprocket holes. Did you start to dig into that
on YouTube as well? Like, let me see what other versions there are.
I certainly looked for other versions of it, and I did find quite
a few. Well, at one point you could have stumbled across one on
my channel when I still had a channel a couple of years ago. Yeah,
because I mean it seemed like anybody was interested in the case had some
sort of copy of the Subruder film up there, even though the Suprter family
retained the copyright. And then, uh you know, sold the allegedly extant
film in the nineties to the US government and then donated their copy of the
film to the sixth Floor Museum as a tax write off. I'm sure you
learned that story later on, but that was the process of what the records
collection, right, So, look, the Subruder films one thing, But
what happens next? Because the Subruder film is not the beginning in the end
of the photographic universe here. So what was the next step after you were
captivated by the Z film? Uh? You know, did you watch Oliver
Stone's JFK? Did you catch other documentaries? Did you turn on I know,
Grandpa, nobody watches TV anymore, but did you turn on the History
channel? I mean, tell me about it? What was next? I
mean, I know I was certainly interested in looking at other photographs around the
assassination, so I started looking for those, and I eventually stumbled upon the
next film and the much more film, which both of them I washed,
of course, Yeah, right, Okay, So then you got the films
from the other side of the street, two of them at least. And
okay, so those contain the sequence which also contains the headshot, just like
the subruder film. Logical progression, all right, So the motion pictures are
one thing, and then if you dig deep enough into that rabbit hole,
you find that really the filming around Dally Plaza. You've got tony something films
there, everything from Pascal to Darnell, to Cook to Zabruder and on and
on. And no, I didn't put him in alphabetical order. Why bother
all the way to Jack Daniels film which Jack Daniel and the s is for
it belonging to him. Jack Daniels film, who was on the other side
of the Triple Underpass as the limo passes through. And so you have a
bunch of films in this sequence, even the film which is captured by the
US government right the made into a documentary what was it called The Last Two
Days something like this, And okay, so there's a lot of footage.
Now where do we go. Did you see guidance, did you start to
read, did you get into documentaries or what was next? Yeah? I
certainly did look into watching some documentaries. I don't I can't remember how many
I watched, but I did watch quite a few. Those definitely got me
more interested in the assassination and eventually stumbled across other images surrounding the assassination.
And yeah, but the photographic and motion picture evidence to something I've always been
interested in from the start. Well, here's another question. Were you interested
in photographs or photographic evidence of any other historical events or was this the first
one that grabbed you? Because clearly there are other events which have been photographed,
not quite as much, it seems as this, which is odd from
various amateur cameras mostly, but some professional cameras captured many events surrounding this historical
event of significance. But did you study any other historical events or were you
just like a photograph photography above? Did you just like cameras? I mean,
tell me about that as well. I mean, I know, since
I was sairly young, I have been interested in other historical events such as
the Hindenburg disaster and god, I can't think of another one right now,
but I did look into those quite a bit, but not none nearly as
much as what I'm doing now. Of course, Well there's not the same
library of stuff. Look, with the Hindenburg, there's only two films as
far as I know, two motion picture films, you know, I think
there's six to wow. Okay, well you know what, the one that
was discovered later. I think Mike contained clips to all put together, the
one that I'm thinking of as a second film. Maybe there are six,
but I only know too. And by the way, I used to live
and work right by lake Hurst Naval Base, Wow, you know, in
New Jersey. So it was a point of interest for me as local history.
Uh, an interesting place to be in general. And of course that
is a fascinating thing. Everybody's familiar with the radio oh god, the humanity
and all that, you know, the radio replay and of course the most
iconic film of it. Most people believe there's only one film, but there
are indeed more than one film, and maybe they're six. I'd like to
see that. Maybe you can send me a couple of links to something later
and I'd love to learn about it. But anyway, yeah, so,
okay, the Hindenburg, so history and film coming together. You could even
take a look at the still photos you know, from an assassination one hundred
years earlier than Kennedy, if you wanted to to study some interesting photographic archives
that were kept by the US government, even including the execution of the conspirators
when it comes to uh, you know, the Lincoln assassination. Right.
But anyway, so Kennedy got you, and you had sort of a general
interest in history and film. All right, so let's take this further.
What goes on next? I mean, what drives you to next really study
this and get into the stills and everything else. I mean the arrays that
you can get a hint of from say Robert Groden's books, which you know,
contain what eight hundred and a thousand pictures of piece each of these things.
I mean, I've got it right here just as a point of reference.
I didn't know if we were going to bring anything up, so I
was gonna reference them. I got the Search for le rvy Oswald Absolute Proof
and the Killing Book I dropped something, but the Killing of a President.
Have them right here in case we needed to go to them. But the
books are interesting and they give you, you know, copies of a lot
of things. But you didn't want just the copies you went after other things,
So tell me about that when you started to try and collect and what
your sources were. I mean, give us all an idea about what's the
next step for somebody who wants to dig deeply into the film as far as
you're concerned still or movie. I mean, I know, uh, gosh,
what upset I think? Definitely, I've been interested in all the copies
of everything for I can't remember what I was gonna say, dang it,
but you know it's okay. First of all, let's just tell you guys
listening right now, that you know I don't believe Alex has done a podcast
at all before h in a long format like he's doing right now. I
think this is the first time ever, and I'm fairly certain this is the
first time you've done it talking about this case. So it's not like this
is old hat for you. This is brand new. In case somebody's wondering,
why is he forgetting what he's saying, it's all right, first of
all. Secondly, even though that voice is really mature, again, I'm
talking to a guy who's at this point in time thirteen, and when he
presents at Lancer this year, he'll be fourteen, and I'm not making excuses
for you. You spoke quite eloquently to me on the phone, and you're
doing a good job. Now, don't worry about it. If you lose
track of a thought, just fill it in with another. I am trying
to discover just how you got here, is all I'm trying to get to.
And I want to show people what that is, what that journey might
contain. So you take your time and tell it your own way. We're
here to listen. Go go right ahead, and I'm happy to hear it
anyway you tell it. Yeah, I wanted to go back to something you
said earlier about the Hindenberg. Sure of one of the films of The Assassin
of the Hindenburg. Gosh, but I was shot by a person named Thomas
Joseph P. Craven whose fun actually was in the Dallas Motorcade, who's known
as Thomas Joseph Craven Junior. And of course I'm sure several people know about
the Missing Daily Plants, a Craven film. But yeah, I think that's
interesting keywork for CBS. Okay, that is an interesting and odd connection.
We often find that there are weird h connective tissues between figures and events in
history. Uh did not know. You just gave me a fact. I
didn't know that there was a connection between the craven who took the film the
Hindenberg and the craven in the motorcade. There that is interesting, thank you?
So okay, cool, go ahead. What else did you want to
tell us about? I think that's all I can think of right now.
If I did you have any other questions? Yeah, no problem Again,
I want to go back to what was the next thing? I mean,
did you, uh, you know, get get some books? Maybe you
got Roden's books like I mentioned, because those would be easily accessible, or
a book we talked about off air the other day. Pictures of the Pain
was a really interesting resource course for me at a certain point. I was
really glad to see when that book came out, okay, because it helped
me a lot trying to collect things in the days before the internet, you
know. Yeah, and I needed it in the days before we started swapping
things on message boards and we're no longer doing it by chain letter. Yeah,
so it was. It was helpful. But I mean, which book
or what did you turn to next to give you a reference? Guide or
give you an idea of what the photographic evidence could possibly contain if you were
to attempt to collect it all. Say, I think I did go to
the Harold Wiseburg archives, which are there's quite a bit of it online.
It's just a resource that I stumbled upon. I can't remember when, but
it's certainly a useful thing. There's probably hundreds of thousands of documents on there.
They're all very useful. I just started reading through a lot of them.
I think that definitely helped me get into the photographic evidence more. I
think, actually, I think Harold Wiseberg photo copied a little bit of pictures
of the pain and I was able to read a little bit of it from
there, but I hadn't read the full book. I didn't even actually know
where that photocopy had even come from until I got the book. Right,
So, you went to the Harold Weissberg papers, which are held at a
university. Remember which university that was? I cannot at all. I think
I'm wanting to say it's hood in Texas there, right is? Yeah?
Yeah, Okay, So now I have not made a visit to that archive,
although some of it, like you said, is available online now.
They have a couple of different research archives there, and Weissberg kept quite a
bit of documentation, but also took some time to study photographs in different versions
of some of his self published books. I think it was maybe Whitewash four
might have been the photographic study, but I'm pulling this from memory from a
long time ago. But either way, he had taken time to study stuff
and even got involved in the earliest debates about the guy in the doorway and
whether that was Lee Harvey Oswald. And I think Harold was working with maybe
not the best material, and he came up with some ideas that possibly that
was Oswald in the doorway, etc. And the Alkins photo, which now
brings us into Look, you have professional press photos that were taken by newspaper
people, by the Associated Press. You have a film that was taken by
TV. You have film that was taken by a white House photographer, for
sure, but there's also tons and tons of amateur photographs and films, everything
from the Dallas Cinema Associates reels to Abraham sub Bruder on the films, And
I mean, it's crazy to think about the the all the different photographers,
everybody from Mary Mormon, right, Mary Mormon Kramer all the way to God.
Who else there? There was the girl? She was very young and
she took stuff within a Towner town or Tina Towner, yes, because what
her father had the film camera, or maybe she had the film camera.
I forget which, but it's like a family with cameras standing there. Uh
right. I think it was Bill Towner, Bill tamp Mate, William Towner,
I was it was James Towner. James, Okay, great, Look
some of this stuff is a little blurry in my mind. But I remember
going through these pictures and thinking to myself, this is amazing that there were
so many different photographers. There h so many different people trying to capture images
of the president that wound up capture, you know, images that lend some
sort of information about the circumstances regarding the assassination straight to us. And the
way that these things have been in some cases preserved, lost, rediscovered,
found again, even the Patsy Pascal film, which was not seen for a
long time. Although the HSCA was aware of it, it didn't get on
TV for a long time. And then you know, what was it around
the thirtieth anniversary or something there were people trying to sell it, and they
were broadcasting it on Dallas TV. You know, something they were incapable of
doing on the day of the assassination. Anyway, I digress. I want
to go into the universe where you went into it. So you got a
hold of some information on the assassination, went through the Weisburg archives. What
was the next part of the journey? I mean, did you say,
all right, I see some of these pictures, some of these photographs I
don't usually see them. I've watched some documentaries. I see the steel images
that they keep using over and over again. Of course you saw all kinds.
Of course you saw parts of the uh, the official White House Photographers
documentary about the weekend of the assassination. Of course you saw that. Of
course you saw you know Mary Mormon's still image. Guaranteed that was there at
least in a quick rush, uh, you know, because that was a
polaroid. Interesting quality on that. And it's the Bruners film constantly shown to
everybody. Okay, but there's a whole lot more to it. So where
did you go from there? Did you say, Okay, what do I
do next? Do I just search online for these things, What do I
find? What did you do? I think from there? What I did
is my third looking back on there's probably hundreds of blogs and posts online from
really the early two thousands that I looked back upon, and those certainly helped
me with some of my reefs. Ly, it got me an interest in
the autopsy photographs. But there's several two websites like that that I looked back
some from like two thousand and five, two thousand and three around that time
that I did look back upon. A lot of them I don't think are
up anymore even, but I was able to look at some of those and
read what some people were putting on there, and that did get my interest
more. Right, So, okay, the publications, Now, what year
is this that we're talking about, because two thousand and three was the fortieth
anniversary and we're getting close to twenty thirteen. I guess after a little bit,
if you're looking at two thousand and five and all that, Yeah,
there was a bunch of like very blocky, sort of rudimentary websites that sometimes
had great photograph, great photographic images on them. It was like the that's
part of the website, and it's strange because okay, the autopsy photos you
brought up, so you're aware that officially the autopsy photos have never been seen,
but you ended up having to learn about the fact that there is a
copy or a copy of a set of photos out there that are legitimate somehow,
although they weren't meant to be released. So when did you learn about
that or do you want to bring up the the what I always called the
Fox set of photographs? Yea, with good reason. Good I mean,
I've seen a couple of those for some reason, used in a few news
articles, but I didn't see the full set of those for a while until
gosh, I can't remember when I found the full set. Actually, I
think it was Robin unders Big Archive online, Robin Hunger. Yeah, yeah,
that would be that would be a good shout out there. And uh
yeah, indeed, shout out to Robin Hunger, who had Again I don't
remember how much him and I agreed or disagreed on many a thing, but
he definitely had some photographs of interest. I ended up with pretty good scans,
and there were some that were making their way in the press because ready
for this one, the National Inquirer published a bunch of them. At a
certain point, so you had the uh, the the stare of death.
I'm sure you don't remember this because you weren't even born yet when this was
happening, and a lot of people don't talk about it anymore. But that's
the first place a lot of those photos wound up being seen, believe it
or not. And then of course, uh in what was it called?
It was Groden's book first with Harrison Livingstone. Uh active, No, No,
No, that's that's David Lifton's book. Uh something about act of treason
or something like this. I gotta I'll go look it up real fast.
Treason, high treason, thank you, that's what it was. And they
published a photographic section which contained good copies of the good black and white copies
anyway, of some of the autopsy images. But by law those are not
actually the official set. Those are still sitting at the National Archives so under
a data gift, and you have to be a doctor and get permission from
the Kennedy family's lawyers to be able to go view them. Yeah. So
anyway, I'm sure you haven't done that, because only a handful of people
that I know at all i've ever gone and done that. But anyway,
and I've known plenty of people that made the application but didn't get it too.
However, you used what you could, and those are publicly available,
and from what I understand, they do represent some of the images in the
set of photos for sure, So it's not like their fakes. It's not
like they're not represent what goes on. The one that they used to love
to use in the press, by the way, is what they called the
Stare of death where Kennedy's eyes are open and he's on his back, just
you know, eyes open on his back on the table. Kind of grewesome
image, but of course they would crop it and just show you this dead
looking face and tell you about the autopsy photos in news articles. Yeah,
so you saw all that stuff, and you saw online debates maybe uh discussions,
independently published blog articles, and it just continued your journey. But where
do you start collecting your own sources on this and try to get toward the
best copies you can and everything. When when did that start to happen?
Uh? I mean, I know that happened from the start. I was
interested in saving a lot of them, but I never For a while,
I couldn't really find good information on who took what and so that was a
big struggle in getting my archive together. But I soon was able to find
sources said who took a lot of the photos, and I put together a
pretty decent archive and it's been growing ever since. A couple of controversies you
probably came across where you have more than one photographer being named for certain photos,
some misidentifica even some of the films have been mislabeled. You know,
for years and years there there there have been different ones. You want to
tell us about a few of those, A few things you had to solve
because at first maybe you thought it was it came from a certain place and
wound up coming from somewhere else. Could you tell us about one or two
of those? Yeah, One photograph I found it was taken by Arthur rickerby
of Life magazine. It was of a few of the cameramen on the knoll
after the assassination, filming the newmans. I actually found a source I can't
remember where, but it claimed that there was that image was taken by a
newspaper to photographer by the name of Donald Grant Pewort four. I think the
donas Morning News but I found that eventually to be not true. Well,
there were a few misunderstandings here and a few misappropriations. After all, as
I said, there were local news reporters. There was a team of photographers
there that took pictures after the assassination. Have you ever seen Jesse Curry's self
published book or not self published, the one that was published by the Southland
Corporation and distributed. Yeah, I've never been able to read it, but
I've heard of that he published a book. I see. Well, you
know what, I'm gonna have to bring a copy of it with me to
Dallas to show it to you, because it's got some interesting photos in there
that at the time it was published, we're not seen anywhere else, by
the way, very interesting stuff, and some of the stuff that's identified in
there, I've got questions about still. And that book was published maybe in
nineteen eighty. I think I'd have to look back at it. But it
was called like Jesse Curry's a Personal Police Chief File or something like. I
have a copy of it on the shelf over there, but I'll bring that
to Dallas. I'm gonna have to bring a few things with me when I
sit down with you and Dallas, because yeah, I already told you I'm
gonna make a gift of one book till you've got to read, but I'm
gonna I'm gonna show you some other stuff because I want to assist you with
this research. You're only legitimately and I'm not saying this to put you down
at all, but you're only a couple of years in to something that some
of us, you know, take ten years before we even begin to speak
a word about it. Because is deep. Every single aspect of this thing
is deep. If somebody thinks, oh, okay, so what, there's
only a handful of films, there's a handful of photos. It's not that
big of a universe of stuff to study the photos. First of all,
you're wrong, But secondly, give people an idea about that, like,
exactly how large of a pool of stuff are we talking about when it comes
to photographic evidence regarding this case just limited to the event itself and the autopsy.
And by the way, that's not the only part of the universe there
is. You can follow the casket around, you can follow the motorcade around,
you can follow them the day before. You can check out Johnson landing.
I mean, there is photographic and film evidence of hundreds of things if
you want to look at it from hundreds of sources. But give people an
idea of how big that universe, how big that archive of yours could become.
If you were to collect every single image that was captured surrounding these events.
How give us just a rough idea how large that could be. Yeah,
I'd say if let's say from the morning of the assassination to the autopsy,
all those photos combine amateur, professional, all of that, I'd say
there's about almost ten thousand photos alone easily. Now that's that's if you don't
break the films into individual frames. By the way, that's count the film
as one thing. Even though okay, and you still got ten thousand images,
I'm sure, uh yeah, so yeah, No, you're accurate.
You're absolutely accurate. And by the way, sometimes there are brand new things
that are discovered because you know, somebody didn't realize they had something in their
personal collection. Occasionally things have popped up like that over the years. Yeah.
And also, let's not forget you know, part of that photographic universe
could include have you gone into the Lee Harvey Oswald area? Of this.
Have you gone into the Oswald life photographs because he only lived to be twenty
four years old, and still there's a fair amount. I mean, after
all, like I said Groden, I always point to him. Sorry to
keep bringing him up. I mean, I hope you meet him sometime because
you want to have some fun learning some new stuff. This book right here
gives you an idea that there is a universe of photographs related to a twenty
four year old man that you know, we could learn a great deal about.
Now. As to whether he's actually the assassin or not, as another
question, yeah, not going to answer that one today. But his photographic
record is fascinating for the fact that he was only twenty four and he was
involved in photography, so okay, But putting that aside, just the events,
just the autopsy and the assassination from the morn, you'd, like you
said, ten thousand images and that's again. You might discover brand new things
or you might discover very overlooked things where people have, you know, played
find a needle in a haystack And I love that. The array and Deally
Plaza alone keeps me busy for days on end if I go into it.
Looking for something, which, by the way, have you assembled a fair
amount of stuff regarding Dealy Plaza to your satisfaction? Do you think you have
a decent collection regarding just those few minutes there that the presidential limousine was in
Dealy Plaza in that area at all? And I do say a few minutes.
I realized the shooting event took place in seconds. But we have film
of them coming down certain streets. We have Elm Street, we have Main
Street, we have so there's a lot of images that were taken there,
guys. So there's a lot to be studied. And it's over the course
of a few minutes before and after and then of course getting to the hospital.
There's a lot there in those few minutes during this event. So are
you satisfied with the collection you have of that just yet? Number one?
And number two? When you get there? I mean, do you find
that most people are not fully aware of all the things that could be viewed
regarding the photographic evidence on the event itself out? Oh, hopefully I didn't
lose you or you mute it or something. Gee, all right, I
don't see him there, but you know what, maybe maybe he lost me
on zoom and he'll come back around, I hope. So what I might
do is decide to take a break here on the live stream and see if
we can't reconnect with Alex on the zoom call, which I'm sending out live
on Ocelli dot com right now. But yeah, stick around and we'll return
after this. In Denial Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock.
Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today.
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was like I took a style so wide show down and down and opened out
and only could hold open the Shelley dot Com Radio revelation through conversation. The
second segment on a Wednesday, Wolden's Day, middle of the week, and
it is a wild card. But Alex dropped off the call there and so
we're just going to continue where we left off. We got him back on
the zoom, so all is well. Anyway, let's let's turn my microphone
down a touch on the live stream. All of a sudden, it's spiked
up loud. All right, hey, live radio. It's the way it
rolls. Anyhow, if you're hearing the podcast, you don't care, it
doesn't matter. Time is yours and you can move it around all over the
place. And maybe you didn't even get this far in the podcast. Anyway,
welcome to it. Alex Harris is with me and we're talking about the
JFK photographic stuff and how he got into the case. And that's about as
far as we've gotten, so I'm gonna shut up and let him tell us
a little more about it. We were up to the point of saying,
okay, how large would you say is the universal stuff? I mean ten
thousand, he said, And then I was asking him if he satisfied with
his Dealy Plaza collection thus far, if he thinks he has nearly everything that
could be gotten. And then a second question of follow up was what have
you learned in collecting that array which focuses around Deily Plaza directly? So I'll
just give you those two easy ones. There, are you satisfied with your
collection? And what have you learned from collecting those photos of the many things
that happened it justin Dealy Plaza in the space of a very short amount of
time. Do you have a complete photo array of all of it? Do
you think? And if not, what are you missing? And like I
said, are you happy with your collection? And what have you learned?
So Alex go ahead? Yeah, I say, I'm fairly satisfied with my
collection so far. I know there's definitely more to collect, and I'm finding
more almost every day, but yeah, I'm fairly satisfied with my archive at
the moment. See what was the other question, Well, I did ask
you know what you have, Let's go this way. What have you learned
as a result of collecting those photos that again are just very tightly collected around
the events in Daly Plaza that day at that time. What have you learned
of significance just by collecting those photos. I've definitely learned that there's quite a
few more photos than I thought related to the assassination. I've learned quite a
bit about the assassination through the photos. I have a very good idea of
a timeline second by second in daily Plaza of all the photos. I could
definitely make a timeline. I just haven't yet it's kind of difficult. Well,
that is one of the ultimate goals that I had always hoped to get
to if I could have kept my collection together, but an ex wife made
sure I couldn't. But you know the thing is, if I kept my
entire collection together, I wanted to lay these things out chronologically and really say,
look, this was happening here and here and here, and almost lay
out a second by second of events, people's movements and stuff like that,
like a good, for instance, a very controversial, uh you know,
individual that's often called the Babushka lady, is of interest. When you put
together an array of all the photos in Daily Plaza, guess what I found.
There's about four of them. Now, maybe you found something else,
but there's four ladies with babushkas on their head during that time. And then
I saw what about you? Uh, there is definitely seems to be more
than one people with that head covering, right, But I say, uh,
there's only probably one or two. With a camera. And the one
we talk about almost always, the one in the grass section by Elm Street,
is definitely not a movie camera. That's a common misconception with that.
It's almost definitely a box type still camera. Yes, uh, you know
what. I concluded that many years ago, and people take an issue with
me because that contradicts the story of one Beverly Oliver h you know, who
stated that she had a movie camera and that that is indeed her. Now,
look, I'm not asking you to say whether that is Everly. You're
not in your opinion right now. A matter of fact, maybe that's something
you might talk about in Dallas. But it's interesting you can go into deep
studies here and see for yourself a great many things that have been ambiguous,
a great many things that we had to take certain people's words for at certain
points. But if you look at the photographic evidence, you find people that
said they didn't step into the street did people that said they were facing certain
directions at certain times, like the Warren commissions. You know what, star
witness who said he was looking in a certain direction at a certain time,
If you look at the photographic evidence, guess what he's lying, you know.
I mean, these were my conclusions. Alex. Perhaps you could correct
me, because well, I'm assuming you have better eyesight than me, and
you might see things differently, But I doubt you had studied it as long
as I did. Doesn't mean you didn't come to better conclusions though, because
I needed magnification and I do certainly have bad eyesight. But with the best
evidence I could find, there is a whole lot of interesting truth that is
revealed in the photographs that contradicts a lot of people's statements. I can say
that at a minimum, what do you think I'd say? There is a
fair amount of people who either didn't remember right or did lie about what they
were doing at the time of the assassination, or before or afterwards. Something
interesting that I came across is Associated Press photographer James Altam's he took a few
photos apparently took a few photos over at the intersection of Maine in Houston,
but it's come to my attention that he might have lied about who took those
photos. They're obviously on the same role as his other photos, but there
is some controversy over how who actually took the photos with that camera. Ah,
so it's on the same role of film from the same camera, but
as to who was actually in control of it, there may be a controversy
that is interesting. Did you happen to track down anything related to I'm jumping
around a bit through the photos now in Daly Plaza, if you don't mind,
did you happen to track down anything on one mister Powell regarding his photograph
of the school book depository, because that is a rather controversial issue. First
of all, how is it that an individual with his background got there.
I'm satisfied with his story that he jumped off a train, went over there
to go see Kennedy in the plaza, and then jump back on its train.
It's a strange story, but I actually think it's correct. Oddly,
what do you what are your thoughts on that and that photograph even of the
book depository. Yeah, something I'll dropping real quick here. I am interested
in letting people know a lot of the photographer's full names. That's not an
issue that I see talked about a lot. But I will be using the
photographers full names and probably be shortened him to the last names whenever I can.
But yeah, there was a photographer he worked for Gosh, it was
the He was an Army intelligence photographer by the name of James Wheeler Powell and
Gey Plaza. I think he took a few photos of the motorcade going by.
He said he did, and Something interesting I found is I saw someone
claimed that they found how in the Alptin six photogo. But the place where
he is standing in that photograph, I believe it is him, is not
not at all consistent with his photo. And I've stood in the place where
he allegedly is an Alton photograph and it does not match up with his photo.
So either he ran across the intersection of Elm and Houston, or he
was lying, or that's really the only well he could have misremembered. He
could have lied, or yeah, that's about it, you know, because
the statement contradicts what you see in the photographs. And here we go again.
There's a ton of this kind of stuff. Even and look, you've
been to the plaza, so you've taken a look at the different vantage points
that would have had to have been necessary to get certain photographics images created.
And when you start to do that, and you start to try and place
people in the right place, it becomes a bit of amaze. You can
use their testimony to help you sometimes, but does it reveals and quite often
that things don't line up right. I mean, there is a lot of
oddity here and a lot of things to be sorted out and this has caused
a lot of controversy over the years. So look, I see that you've
gotten into some deep studies. I wanted to give people an idea, So
we've done that. Can you do me one last favor before I let you
go for tonight because we had this little technical issue and a few other things.
La la la la whatever, And don't don't worry about it, no
big deal, and you're doing great. By the way, here's the thing
you're going to present in Dallas. Do you already have your presentation laid out?
I do not right now. I was going to present on something,
but I change changed it a few days ago. I don't know right right
now what I'll be doing, but I know it's going to be something fairly
specific in the photographic evidence. I'm not sure what excellent. Okay, So
you couldn't even really give us a good little mini preview here because you're changing
it up as we speak. I mean, it is just the beginning of
September, and you and I will both be present at the JFK Lancer Conference,
the November and Dallas Conference, which will run from the seventeenth to the
nineteenth of November this year. And we'll be there. What is the name
of that hotel again, I always I keep forgetting it. It's the Lorenzo
Hotel, the Lorenzo, right, the Lorenzo Hotel, and that's where we
will be. I intend to be introducing Alex and others at the conference.
Perhaps if if I find something significant enough worthy of presentation, I'll make a
presentation, but otherwise I intend to introduce people and do a breakout and maybe
show a film. I got a few plans in the works, and I'll
be giving away pens and a few other things to people at the conference,
and I'm planning on bringing a couple of things specifically for Alex. I want
him to have some resources that I so happen to have extra copies of.
And I want to see his research go further because I stressed it a little
bit at the beginning here. But you're thirteen years old. This is great
that you're interested. I want to see more people in your age group interested
before we're done. Since I couldn't find out about your presentation, let me
find out about this. Do you have any peers your own age who are
into this, who you've been able to get into this, or are there
any friends who are into this just for the photographic aspects, just with his
historical aspects. I mean, do you have any friends that are interested in
history or well deep politics of any kind or any of this stuff? I
mean, or are you really the lone wolf in your age group in your
area there studying this stuff? Again with great access because you're in the state
of Texas, and you have much more access to places like Deily Plaza and
the other historical sites that could be linked to these events very easily. You
have ready access to any historical societies and local residents, et cetera, et
cetera. But interesting thing is do you have any peers though in your age
group? I mean, there is a few of my friends that I've gotten
to do a little bit of more research with me, but none that have
done the amount of research that I have. I'd say I'm the youngest one
that has done this much research. Right, Well, I expected that answer,
and I say again, look, I got into this twenty fifth anniversary
was nineteen eighty eight, Okay, And that's when I got into it strong
and started doing actual research. Are to call enough people and trying to speak
to witnesses, which I found was not the best way to gain evidence,
but was the best way to gain a great many leads. And an interesting
thing happened there. I was only sixteen. Now you're three years younger than
I was, and I was certainly an odd ball. I was a musician,
I was a juvenile delinquent, etcetera, etcetera. And I mean that
seriously, I was. And uh, none of my peers cared about this,
none of them. Not the juvenile delinquents, not the heavy metal musicians,
Nope, Nope. In Jersey it was like, shut up, boy,
what are you talking about? That crap is on TV? Go watch
the thing on TV, because they ran a bunch of documentaries then, and
TV was the way to reach Generation X, but YouTube was the way to
reach your generation, least up until recently. I don't know what it is
now, TikTok. I don't know. Anyway, I'm guessing I got I
got kids older than you and younger than you, so I know what they're
being reached by. Unfortunately, but none of them are taking an interest.
I can't even convince my own children to take a real interest in this case.
I couldn't. They look at it as dad's crazy crusade, and that's
all there is to it, you know. And the youngest one is nine,
the oldest one is twenty three. And guess what, I'm a nut.
My daughter understands that I'm a nut. She sympathizes with me, and
I know she's okay with me being a nut. My two boys, I'm
not so sure, but it's all right. They know that Dad is into
this. Gonna have to bring some extra resources to Dallas, though, to
show you. I'm looking forward to whatever it is you decide to present.
If you need any help with your presentation, I'm gonna do this in public
right now. If you need any help, please, by all means,
I'll be more than happy to give you any advice i can. I've seen
a lot of these I've been through a lot of this stuff. I'm aware
of the evidence. I'll tell you all about the controversies that you might step
on, like landmines here. If you say certain things about certain people,
are certain theories, you know, regardless of the fact that you have facts
and you know evidence on your on your side, it doesn't matter. Get
ready for it. It is a lot of fun. I really look forward
to seeing what it is you do, and I hope you stick with this
because, man, oh man, we need people your age, you know,
not too long ago, I was seen as one of the younger people.
I'm fifty one now. Yeah, I was seen as one of the
younger people, you know, twenty years ago, okay, around that fortieth
anniversary, Around that thirtieth anniversary, I was one of the younger people.
And believe me, if you were in your twenties and into this, you
were still an oddball. But it's it's okay. I say oddball lovingly,
Alex. Don't worry. I'm not picking on you. Yeah, this is
great. I'm so happy that somebody younger is getting into this. And if
there's anything you want to say, or anything that we should have said during
this discussion, I'm gonna give you a chance to turn the floor over to
you right now. But again, I want to remind you, guys that
will both be at the Lancer conference November seventeenth and nineteenth. A bunch of
our friends are going to be there from the network, not necessarily Alex's friends,
but they'll probably want to meet him because they heard him on the show,
you know, and things like that. But a bunch of my friends,
including the guy I'm going on a road trip with, and maybe my
producer and a couple others will be along for the ride, and hopefully we're
going to do a little breakout room for the tenth anniversary of the o'chelli Effect,
where we've done hundreds of shows on the JFK assassination and I even did
an awful, awful presentation in twenty seventeen. But you know, live there,
and I'm so glad this is face to face and thank god we're not
having to mask up and stay six feet apart, I think. But anyway,
we're gonna go forward with this. This is going to be a good
thing, and Alex will be there as well and really looking forward to it.
So again, if there's anything you want to throw in, Alex before
we're all done tonight, anything you want people to know, anything you want
people to think about, whatever you think is important, my friend, go
for it. It's all you. Yeah, I just wanted to I mentioned
this a little bit before, but again, I'm interested in identifying all the
photographers and cameraman's full names. I just wanted to say the White House,
the last two, the photographer of the last two days that film that was
Thomas Moore Atkins. That's correct. Yeah, and there's several others I know
the full names of. I won't list them out right now, of course,
but yeah, I am interested, and I'd like to hear from people
if they happen to know any of the photographers full names, because there's quite
a few I haven't found. Well, I assure you that people that have
focused on the photographic evidence can provide eyed you with a great many leads.
Verify everything though, as best you can, you know. And it's interesting
too because you have situations like you got into the autopsy photos, and one
of these days we'll have a discussion deeper about that, because after all,
John Stringer is the photographer of record, right, But here's the problem,
he doesn't claim ownership of some of the negatives that are in existence. So
and you have this kind of thing has happened a few times where somebody claims
the providence of a photograph has come from a particular photographer, came from a
particular source. The oddity of say, even the backyard photographs. And guess
what, Geneva White I think had possession of one of those photographs before the
HSCA got a hold of it. You know, there's all sorts of things
floating around, and did Marina Oswald actually take those photographs or not? Depending
on which testimony you read, you can answered a bunch of different ways.
It's not always easy to nail down exactly who it is. So sometimes I
think you got to put an asterisk next to the photographer because quite frankly,
it's almost impossible to determine on occasion where some of these images came from.
Yeah, and also, unfortunately, we were in an age where people have
doctored things, people have damaged things by digital representation, by other forms of
mutilation, etc. And frankly we're in we're in a bit of a big
catchup game when you're trying to label ten thousand pieces. But I figure if
you're determined, you'll get it done. I think you'll get it done.
So and I'd love to see it. I'd love to see a full on
archive of the photographic evidence available to well the world really but if you could
collect it, I would be most grateful, and I'm sure there would be
others who would be as well, especially if we had a search database of
like every photographic image you could possibly use in order to study aspects of the
case. I think that would be great, and perhaps we'll talk about that
in the future. But anyway, we're all done. Is there anything else
that you want to add here? I think that's all all right. So
I'm gonna end this show the way I end all of my shows. And
I want you guys again to remember that we'll both be at that Lancer conference
in November, and I hope that some of you will join us there.
But in the meantime, remember this much, please, I am merely o'celly
all of you, or indeed the effect. Good night,