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The o'chilly Effect is sponsored by Wall
Street Window dot Com and listeners like you

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nowelly on here we are. It
is the sixth day of September. Is

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it the sixth I think it is, let's see it is. It's the

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sixth day of September, or allegedly
according to that thing we call a calendar.

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And this is a show you might
have been looking for. It's the

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Ochilly Effect and I'm live here on
a Wednesday, and it's definitely a wildcard

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swore tonight. If you're hearing me
on the live stream, it's great.

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I know we went to air real
late about quarter after or well more more

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than quarter after jeez. Anyways,
it doesn't matter if you're hearing the podcast

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or if you're catching the video.
Now, I was going to have my

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my friend here on the video directly, but there was a little bit of

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an issue with technical stuff and sound
and all that. So this time we're

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not going to see him on video, but I've got him on audio.

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His name is Alex Harris. Now
somebody might say, hey, I might

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recognize that name, and others might
say I have no idea who the heck.

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That is no problem either way.
He's conducting research though, And he's

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conducting research and a specified area regarding
the JFK assassination, and that is the

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photographic evidence. Okay. I had
a fairly long conversation with him on the

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phone just the other day and was
introduced to the idea of this young man

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by people that are organizing the Lancer
conference. Guess why he'll be presenting.

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And I'm fairly certain he is the
youngest presenter ever to go to any of

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the Lancer conferences, maybe any of
the conferences on the Kennedy assassination and actually

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present reminds me of my own story
because I started when I was still in

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high school. Taking a look at
this event seriously, now, does that

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mean that this kid is anything like
me? No, he's not, because

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he's not Juleman of Delinquent and he's
younger. Okay, So at the age

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of thirteen, here he is,
and he's going to be fourteen when he

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presents at Lancer this year. Really
fascinated at how much he has his stuff

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together regarding the assassination is knowledge.
The historiography of the photographic evidence alone is

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better than most of the people I
run into claim to have some sort of

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expertise in general on the assassination already. Plus he's looking to assemble archives,

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this and that. Maybe he's going
to tell you a bunch more, but

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first we're going to find out a
little bit about his background and how he

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got into the case right here on
the show. And before I even get

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to that, Alex, how are
you doing tonight? I'm doing good.

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It is really good to have you
on. I'm really happy to have you

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on strange situation. I never thought
and could never get, say, my

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own kids to take a look at
the Kennedy assassination as teenagers. When I

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was a teenager, I was definitely
all alone looking at the case. None

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of my friends who were musicians,
none of my friends who were also well,

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some of them were hoodlums and such. They were not all good kids,

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okay, and hardly anybody wanted to
know about the Kennedy assassination or any

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of that crap. I was a
nut onto myself, and I'm being blunt

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here. You First of all,
you're you're a nice guy. You're you're

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a level guy. You don't sound
like the average thirteen year old to me

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to begin with, and clearly you're
not because you're into the assassination, so

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let's let's go for it. And
I don't even know the details of this

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story, guys, I'm gonna learn
this along with you, Like how he

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actually got into the case. I
kind of asked a couple of questions about

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it, but didn't really get the
full story. So I'm gonna let Alex

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just tell you. So you're ready
to roll and tell us exactly how it

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is. You just decided that this
was a big point of interest for you.

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I mean, in your own words, go for it. Yeah,

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I got I've knew. I'm known
for a while about the assassination. I've

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known that it happened. It wasn't
until about towards the end of when I

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was in fifth grade that I really
started getting into it. I just so

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happened to be on YouTube and I
watched the Subpreterer film the first time,

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and something about it just got me
interested in the case, and I just

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got looked at I looked into it
a little bit because I had never looked

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into it that much before. And
well, so what you're saying, yeah,

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So what you're saying is it's just
you stumbled across the Supruder film on

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YouTube, and that's it. I
mean, you just saw that and you

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went, Okay, I know about
the assassination, but now I've seen the

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Supruder film. Something is wrong with
this idea? Is something is wrong with

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the image I'm seeing. I mean, what was it that grabbed you?

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Just like wow? That's it.
That's what people have talked about over the

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years that I was sort of familiar
with. Yeah, okay, fair enough.

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So what what came next? I
mean, you saw the Supprter film.

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That's striking. It was available on
YouTube. By the way, do

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you know what channel or what version
of the Supruter film you were looking at?

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Because there were a few on on
YouTube, I believe. I think

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a lot of people have launched this
version. It's for some reason. A

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French magazine posted a version straight from
the MPI digitation decizations. It's a very

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low quality, but it's is acceptable, right, So what you're telling me

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is that the French magazine, which
by the way, I can't remember the

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name or probably pronounced it myself,
but you're you're saying the MPI version.

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Now, for the uninitiated out there, we are talking about the home video

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version that was released, most likely
under the title image of an assassination,

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and it was done through vhs actually
in the late eighties, and MPI released

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a series of documentaries and other things
related to the jfkks during that time.

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But quite famously, there was a
reconstruction, a scanning the better qualities of

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bruder film. For a long time
was contained on that videotape, which I

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don't even know if they turned it
into a DVD, because it was popular

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for a bit at your local blockbuster
for sure back in the day. But

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there it is yet transferred onto YouTube
by some French magazine. I recall that

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video. I don't know if it's
up anymore. Actually I think it is

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okay. But but either way,
I mean, there are many different versions.

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Some people have reconstructed them, restabilized
them in different ways, shown us

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the Sprocket holes not the Sprocket holes. Did you start to dig into that

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on YouTube as well? Like,
let me see what other versions there are.

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I certainly looked for other versions of
it, and I did find quite

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a few. Well, at one
point you could have stumbled across one on

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my channel when I still had a
channel a couple of years ago. Yeah,

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because I mean it seemed like anybody
was interested in the case had some

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sort of copy of the Subruder film
up there, even though the Suprter family

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retained the copyright. And then,
uh you know, sold the allegedly extant

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film in the nineties to the US
government and then donated their copy of the

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film to the sixth Floor Museum as
a tax write off. I'm sure you

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learned that story later on, but
that was the process of what the records

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collection, right, So, look, the Subruder films one thing, But

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what happens next? Because the Subruder
film is not the beginning in the end

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of the photographic universe here. So
what was the next step after you were

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captivated by the Z film? Uh? You know, did you watch Oliver

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Stone's JFK? Did you catch other
documentaries? Did you turn on I know,

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Grandpa, nobody watches TV anymore,
but did you turn on the History

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channel? I mean, tell me
about it? What was next? I

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mean, I know I was certainly
interested in looking at other photographs around the

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assassination, so I started looking for
those, and I eventually stumbled upon the

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next film and the much more film, which both of them I washed,

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of course, Yeah, right,
Okay, So then you got the films

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from the other side of the street, two of them at least. And

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okay, so those contain the sequence
which also contains the headshot, just like

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the subruder film. Logical progression,
all right, So the motion pictures are

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one thing, and then if you
dig deep enough into that rabbit hole,

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you find that really the filming around
Dally Plaza. You've got tony something films

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there, everything from Pascal to Darnell, to Cook to Zabruder and on and

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on. And no, I didn't
put him in alphabetical order. Why bother

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all the way to Jack Daniels film
which Jack Daniel and the s is for

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it belonging to him. Jack Daniels
film, who was on the other side

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of the Triple Underpass as the limo
passes through. And so you have a

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bunch of films in this sequence,
even the film which is captured by the

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US government right the made into a
documentary what was it called The Last Two

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Days something like this, And okay, so there's a lot of footage.

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Now where do we go. Did
you see guidance, did you start to

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read, did you get into documentaries
or what was next? Yeah? I

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certainly did look into watching some documentaries. I don't I can't remember how many

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I watched, but I did watch
quite a few. Those definitely got me

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more interested in the assassination and eventually
stumbled across other images surrounding the assassination.

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And yeah, but the photographic and
motion picture evidence to something I've always been

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interested in from the start. Well, here's another question. Were you interested

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in photographs or photographic evidence of any
other historical events or was this the first

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one that grabbed you? Because clearly
there are other events which have been photographed,

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not quite as much, it seems
as this, which is odd from

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various amateur cameras mostly, but some
professional cameras captured many events surrounding this historical

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event of significance. But did you
study any other historical events or were you

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just like a photograph photography above?
Did you just like cameras? I mean,

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tell me about that as well.
I mean, I know, since

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I was sairly young, I have
been interested in other historical events such as

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the Hindenburg disaster and god, I
can't think of another one right now,

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but I did look into those quite
a bit, but not none nearly as

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much as what I'm doing now.
Of course, Well there's not the same

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library of stuff. Look, with
the Hindenburg, there's only two films as

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far as I know, two motion
picture films, you know, I think

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there's six to wow. Okay,
well you know what, the one that

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was discovered later. I think Mike
contained clips to all put together, the

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one that I'm thinking of as a
second film. Maybe there are six,

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but I only know too. And
by the way, I used to live

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and work right by lake Hurst Naval
Base, Wow, you know, in

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New Jersey. So it was a
point of interest for me as local history.

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Uh, an interesting place to be
in general. And of course that

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is a fascinating thing. Everybody's familiar
with the radio oh god, the humanity

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and all that, you know,
the radio replay and of course the most

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iconic film of it. Most people
believe there's only one film, but there

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are indeed more than one film,
and maybe they're six. I'd like to

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see that. Maybe you can send
me a couple of links to something later

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and I'd love to learn about it. But anyway, yeah, so,

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okay, the Hindenburg, so history
and film coming together. You could even

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take a look at the still photos
you know, from an assassination one hundred

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years earlier than Kennedy, if you
wanted to to study some interesting photographic archives

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that were kept by the US government, even including the execution of the conspirators

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when it comes to uh, you
know, the Lincoln assassination. Right.

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But anyway, so Kennedy got you, and you had sort of a general

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interest in history and film. All
right, so let's take this further.

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What goes on next? I mean, what drives you to next really study

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this and get into the stills and
everything else. I mean the arrays that

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you can get a hint of from
say Robert Groden's books, which you know,

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contain what eight hundred and a thousand
pictures of piece each of these things.

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I mean, I've got it right
here just as a point of reference.

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I didn't know if we were going
to bring anything up, so I

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was gonna reference them. I got
the Search for le rvy Oswald Absolute Proof

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and the Killing Book I dropped something, but the Killing of a President.

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Have them right here in case we
needed to go to them. But the

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books are interesting and they give you, you know, copies of a lot

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of things. But you didn't want
just the copies you went after other things,

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So tell me about that when you
started to try and collect and what

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your sources were. I mean,
give us all an idea about what's the

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next step for somebody who wants to
dig deeply into the film as far as

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you're concerned still or movie. I
mean, I know, uh, gosh,

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what upset I think? Definitely,
I've been interested in all the copies

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of everything for I can't remember what
I was gonna say, dang it,

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but you know it's okay. First
of all, let's just tell you guys

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listening right now, that you know
I don't believe Alex has done a podcast

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at all before h in a long
format like he's doing right now. I

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think this is the first time ever, and I'm fairly certain this is the

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first time you've done it talking about
this case. So it's not like this

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is old hat for you. This
is brand new. In case somebody's wondering,

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why is he forgetting what he's saying, it's all right, first of

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all. Secondly, even though that
voice is really mature, again, I'm

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talking to a guy who's at this
point in time thirteen, and when he

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presents at Lancer this year, he'll
be fourteen, and I'm not making excuses

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for you. You spoke quite eloquently
to me on the phone, and you're

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doing a good job. Now,
don't worry about it. If you lose

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track of a thought, just fill
it in with another. I am trying

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to discover just how you got here, is all I'm trying to get to.

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And I want to show people what
that is, what that journey might

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contain. So you take your time
and tell it your own way. We're

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here to listen. Go go right
ahead, and I'm happy to hear it

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anyway you tell it. Yeah,
I wanted to go back to something you

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said earlier about the Hindenberg. Sure
of one of the films of The Assassin

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of the Hindenburg. Gosh, but
I was shot by a person named Thomas

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Joseph P. Craven whose fun actually
was in the Dallas Motorcade, who's known

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as Thomas Joseph Craven Junior. And
of course I'm sure several people know about

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the Missing Daily Plants, a Craven
film. But yeah, I think that's

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interesting keywork for CBS. Okay,
that is an interesting and odd connection.

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We often find that there are weird
h connective tissues between figures and events in

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history. Uh did not know.
You just gave me a fact. I

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didn't know that there was a connection
between the craven who took the film the

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Hindenberg and the craven in the motorcade. There that is interesting, thank you?

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So okay, cool, go ahead. What else did you want to

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tell us about? I think that's
all I can think of right now.

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If I did you have any other
questions? Yeah, no problem Again,

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I want to go back to what
was the next thing? I mean,

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did you, uh, you know, get get some books? Maybe you

214
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got Roden's books like I mentioned,
because those would be easily accessible, or

215
00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.639
a book we talked about off air
the other day. Pictures of the Pain

216
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was a really interesting resource course for
me at a certain point. I was

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00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.799
really glad to see when that book
came out, okay, because it helped

218
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.400
me a lot trying to collect things
in the days before the internet, you

219
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:17.240
know. Yeah, and I needed
it in the days before we started swapping

220
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:22.079
things on message boards and we're no
longer doing it by chain letter. Yeah,

221
00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.240
so it was. It was helpful. But I mean, which book

222
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or what did you turn to next
to give you a reference? Guide or

223
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give you an idea of what the
photographic evidence could possibly contain if you were

224
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to attempt to collect it all.
Say, I think I did go to

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the Harold Wiseburg archives, which are
there's quite a bit of it online.

226
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It's just a resource that I stumbled
upon. I can't remember when, but

227
00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:02.000
it's certainly a useful thing. There's
probably hundreds of thousands of documents on there.

228
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They're all very useful. I just
started reading through a lot of them.

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I think that definitely helped me get
into the photographic evidence more. I

230
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think, actually, I think Harold
Wiseberg photo copied a little bit of pictures

231
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of the pain and I was able
to read a little bit of it from

232
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there, but I hadn't read the
full book. I didn't even actually know

233
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where that photocopy had even come from
until I got the book. Right,

234
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So, you went to the Harold
Weissberg papers, which are held at a

235
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university. Remember which university that was? I cannot at all. I think

236
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I'm wanting to say it's hood in
Texas there, right is? Yeah?

237
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Yeah, Okay, So now I
have not made a visit to that archive,

238
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although some of it, like you
said, is available online now.

239
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They have a couple of different research
archives there, and Weissberg kept quite a

240
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bit of documentation, but also took
some time to study photographs in different versions

241
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of some of his self published books. I think it was maybe Whitewash four

242
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might have been the photographic study,
but I'm pulling this from memory from a

243
00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.400
long time ago. But either way, he had taken time to study stuff

244
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and even got involved in the earliest
debates about the guy in the doorway and

245
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:33.519
whether that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
And I think Harold was working with maybe

246
00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.680
not the best material, and he
came up with some ideas that possibly that

247
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was Oswald in the doorway, etc. And the Alkins photo, which now

248
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:48.400
brings us into Look, you have
professional press photos that were taken by newspaper

249
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people, by the Associated Press.
You have a film that was taken by

250
00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.480
TV. You have film that was
taken by a white House photographer, for

251
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sure, but there's also tons and
tons of amateur photographs and films, everything

252
00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:10.960
from the Dallas Cinema Associates reels to
Abraham sub Bruder on the films, And

253
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.000
I mean, it's crazy to think
about the the all the different photographers,

254
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:21.440
everybody from Mary Mormon, right,
Mary Mormon Kramer all the way to God.

255
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:25.039
Who else there? There was the
girl? She was very young and

256
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.599
she took stuff within a Towner town
or Tina Towner, yes, because what

257
00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.480
her father had the film camera,
or maybe she had the film camera.

258
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.920
I forget which, but it's like
a family with cameras standing there. Uh

259
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.880
right. I think it was Bill
Towner, Bill tamp Mate, William Towner,

260
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.240
I was it was James Towner.
James, Okay, great, Look

261
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:45.920
some of this stuff is a little
blurry in my mind. But I remember

262
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:51.519
going through these pictures and thinking to
myself, this is amazing that there were

263
00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:56.319
so many different photographers. There h
so many different people trying to capture images

264
00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:03.160
of the president that wound up capture, you know, images that lend some

265
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sort of information about the circumstances regarding
the assassination straight to us. And the

266
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way that these things have been in
some cases preserved, lost, rediscovered,

267
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:21.640
found again, even the Patsy Pascal
film, which was not seen for a

268
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.680
long time. Although the HSCA was
aware of it, it didn't get on

269
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TV for a long time. And
then you know, what was it around

270
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the thirtieth anniversary or something there were
people trying to sell it, and they

271
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:36.359
were broadcasting it on Dallas TV.
You know, something they were incapable of

272
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doing on the day of the assassination. Anyway, I digress. I want

273
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to go into the universe where you
went into it. So you got a

274
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hold of some information on the assassination, went through the Weisburg archives. What

275
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was the next part of the journey? I mean, did you say,

276
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all right, I see some of
these pictures, some of these photographs I

277
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don't usually see them. I've watched
some documentaries. I see the steel images

278
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:02.960
that they keep using over and over
again. Of course you saw all kinds.

279
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.279
Of course you saw parts of the
uh, the official White House Photographers

280
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documentary about the weekend of the assassination. Of course you saw that. Of

281
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course you saw you know Mary Mormon's
still image. Guaranteed that was there at

282
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.480
least in a quick rush, uh, you know, because that was a

283
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:26.000
polaroid. Interesting quality on that.
And it's the Bruners film constantly shown to

284
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:32.039
everybody. Okay, but there's a
whole lot more to it. So where

285
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:33.119
did you go from there? Did
you say, Okay, what do I

286
00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.799
do next? Do I just search
online for these things, What do I

287
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.160
find? What did you do?
I think from there? What I did

288
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:52.240
is my third looking back on there's
probably hundreds of blogs and posts online from

289
00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:57.279
really the early two thousands that I
looked back upon, and those certainly helped

290
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:00.279
me with some of my reefs.
Ly, it got me an interest in

291
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:07.640
the autopsy photographs. But there's several
two websites like that that I looked back

292
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:15.279
some from like two thousand and five, two thousand and three around that time

293
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.960
that I did look back upon.
A lot of them I don't think are

294
00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:23.920
up anymore even, but I was
able to look at some of those and

295
00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:32.240
read what some people were putting on
there, and that did get my interest

296
00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:37.519
more. Right, So, okay, the publications, Now, what year

297
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.079
is this that we're talking about,
because two thousand and three was the fortieth

298
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:48.519
anniversary and we're getting close to twenty
thirteen. I guess after a little bit,

299
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:49.599
if you're looking at two thousand and
five and all that, Yeah,

300
00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:55.640
there was a bunch of like very
blocky, sort of rudimentary websites that sometimes

301
00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.160
had great photograph, great photographic images
on them. It was like the that's

302
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.319
part of the website, and it's
strange because okay, the autopsy photos you

303
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:10.759
brought up, so you're aware that
officially the autopsy photos have never been seen,

304
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.599
but you ended up having to learn
about the fact that there is a

305
00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:21.000
copy or a copy of a set
of photos out there that are legitimate somehow,

306
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.799
although they weren't meant to be released. So when did you learn about

307
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:27.119
that or do you want to bring
up the the what I always called the

308
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:33.839
Fox set of photographs? Yea,
with good reason. Good I mean,

309
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:38.240
I've seen a couple of those for
some reason, used in a few news

310
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:48.359
articles, but I didn't see the
full set of those for a while until

311
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.759
gosh, I can't remember when I
found the full set. Actually, I

312
00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:03.759
think it was Robin unders Big Archive
online, Robin Hunger. Yeah, yeah,

313
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.759
that would be that would be a
good shout out there. And uh

314
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.799
yeah, indeed, shout out to
Robin Hunger, who had Again I don't

315
00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.079
remember how much him and I agreed
or disagreed on many a thing, but

316
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.680
he definitely had some photographs of interest. I ended up with pretty good scans,

317
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:22.160
and there were some that were making
their way in the press because ready

318
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.519
for this one, the National Inquirer
published a bunch of them. At a

319
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.200
certain point, so you had the
uh, the the stare of death.

320
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.440
I'm sure you don't remember this because
you weren't even born yet when this was

321
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.440
happening, and a lot of people
don't talk about it anymore. But that's

322
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.440
the first place a lot of those
photos wound up being seen, believe it

323
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:47.000
or not. And then of course, uh in what was it called?

324
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:55.039
It was Groden's book first with Harrison
Livingstone. Uh active, No, No,

325
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:57.839
No, that's that's David Lifton's book. Uh something about act of treason

326
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.720
or something like this. I gotta
I'll go look it up real fast.

327
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.720
Treason, high treason, thank you, that's what it was. And they

328
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:11.240
published a photographic section which contained good
copies of the good black and white copies

329
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:18.119
anyway, of some of the autopsy
images. But by law those are not

330
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.240
actually the official set. Those are
still sitting at the National Archives so under

331
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:26.119
a data gift, and you have
to be a doctor and get permission from

332
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:32.160
the Kennedy family's lawyers to be able
to go view them. Yeah. So

333
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:34.119
anyway, I'm sure you haven't done
that, because only a handful of people

334
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.279
that I know at all i've ever
gone and done that. But anyway,

335
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:44.440
and I've known plenty of people that
made the application but didn't get it too.

336
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.200
However, you used what you could, and those are publicly available,

337
00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:53.319
and from what I understand, they
do represent some of the images in the

338
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.640
set of photos for sure, So
it's not like their fakes. It's not

339
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:03.400
like they're not represent what goes on. The one that they used to love

340
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:04.359
to use in the press, by
the way, is what they called the

341
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:10.440
Stare of death where Kennedy's eyes are
open and he's on his back, just

342
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.599
you know, eyes open on his
back on the table. Kind of grewesome

343
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.799
image, but of course they would
crop it and just show you this dead

344
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:23.880
looking face and tell you about the
autopsy photos in news articles. Yeah,

345
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:29.839
so you saw all that stuff,
and you saw online debates maybe uh discussions,

346
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:34.359
independently published blog articles, and it
just continued your journey. But where

347
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:40.640
do you start collecting your own sources
on this and try to get toward the

348
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:44.319
best copies you can and everything.
When when did that start to happen?

349
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:51.559
Uh? I mean, I know
that happened from the start. I was

350
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:57.279
interested in saving a lot of them, but I never For a while,

351
00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:03.599
I couldn't really find good information on
who took what and so that was a

352
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:08.839
big struggle in getting my archive together. But I soon was able to find

353
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:15.680
sources said who took a lot of
the photos, and I put together a

354
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:22.720
pretty decent archive and it's been growing
ever since. A couple of controversies you

355
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:26.200
probably came across where you have more
than one photographer being named for certain photos,

356
00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:33.039
some misidentifica even some of the films
have been mislabeled. You know,

357
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:34.920
for years and years there there there
have been different ones. You want to

358
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.240
tell us about a few of those, A few things you had to solve

359
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.559
because at first maybe you thought it
was it came from a certain place and

360
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:45.160
wound up coming from somewhere else.
Could you tell us about one or two

361
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:51.400
of those? Yeah, One photograph
I found it was taken by Arthur rickerby

362
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:59.799
of Life magazine. It was of
a few of the cameramen on the knoll

363
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:10.039
after the assassination, filming the newmans. I actually found a source I can't

364
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:15.799
remember where, but it claimed that
there was that image was taken by a

365
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:23.279
newspaper to photographer by the name of
Donald Grant Pewort four. I think the

366
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:33.400
donas Morning News but I found that
eventually to be not true. Well,

367
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.200
there were a few misunderstandings here and
a few misappropriations. After all, as

368
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.440
I said, there were local news
reporters. There was a team of photographers

369
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:48.759
there that took pictures after the assassination. Have you ever seen Jesse Curry's self

370
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.720
published book or not self published,
the one that was published by the Southland

371
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.880
Corporation and distributed. Yeah, I've
never been able to read it, but

372
00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.720
I've heard of that he published a
book. I see. Well, you

373
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.799
know what, I'm gonna have to
bring a copy of it with me to

374
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.119
Dallas to show it to you,
because it's got some interesting photos in there

375
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:11.319
that at the time it was published, we're not seen anywhere else, by

376
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:17.279
the way, very interesting stuff,
and some of the stuff that's identified in

377
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.839
there, I've got questions about still. And that book was published maybe in

378
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.960
nineteen eighty. I think I'd have
to look back at it. But it

379
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.200
was called like Jesse Curry's a Personal
Police Chief File or something like. I

380
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:30.759
have a copy of it on the
shelf over there, but I'll bring that

381
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.480
to Dallas. I'm gonna have to
bring a few things with me when I

382
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.839
sit down with you and Dallas,
because yeah, I already told you I'm

383
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.200
gonna make a gift of one book
till you've got to read, but I'm

384
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.400
gonna I'm gonna show you some other
stuff because I want to assist you with

385
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.920
this research. You're only legitimately and
I'm not saying this to put you down

386
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:55.079
at all, but you're only a
couple of years in to something that some

387
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:56.799
of us, you know, take
ten years before we even begin to speak

388
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:02.599
a word about it. Because is
deep. Every single aspect of this thing

389
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:06.720
is deep. If somebody thinks,
oh, okay, so what, there's

390
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:11.400
only a handful of films, there's
a handful of photos. It's not that

391
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:15.400
big of a universe of stuff to
study the photos. First of all,

392
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.039
you're wrong, But secondly, give
people an idea about that, like,

393
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:26.079
exactly how large of a pool of
stuff are we talking about when it comes

394
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:33.160
to photographic evidence regarding this case just
limited to the event itself and the autopsy.

395
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.359
And by the way, that's not
the only part of the universe there

396
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.759
is. You can follow the casket
around, you can follow the motorcade around,

397
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.599
you can follow them the day before. You can check out Johnson landing.

398
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.839
I mean, there is photographic and
film evidence of hundreds of things if

399
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:53.880
you want to look at it from
hundreds of sources. But give people an

400
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:59.839
idea of how big that universe,
how big that archive of yours could become.

401
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.720
If you were to collect every single
image that was captured surrounding these events.

402
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:10.680
How give us just a rough idea
how large that could be. Yeah,

403
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:16.720
I'd say if let's say from the
morning of the assassination to the autopsy,

404
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:23.119
all those photos combine amateur, professional, all of that, I'd say

405
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:34.680
there's about almost ten thousand photos alone
easily. Now that's that's if you don't

406
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.599
break the films into individual frames.
By the way, that's count the film

407
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:44.000
as one thing. Even though okay, and you still got ten thousand images,

408
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:47.359
I'm sure, uh yeah, so
yeah, No, you're accurate.

409
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:52.960
You're absolutely accurate. And by the
way, sometimes there are brand new things

410
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.440
that are discovered because you know,
somebody didn't realize they had something in their

411
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:01.480
personal collection. Occasionally things have popped
up like that over the years. Yeah.

412
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:06.400
And also, let's not forget you
know, part of that photographic universe

413
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.480
could include have you gone into the
Lee Harvey Oswald area? Of this.

414
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:15.039
Have you gone into the Oswald life
photographs because he only lived to be twenty

415
00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.960
four years old, and still there's
a fair amount. I mean, after

416
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.880
all, like I said Groden,
I always point to him. Sorry to

417
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.400
keep bringing him up. I mean, I hope you meet him sometime because

418
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.839
you want to have some fun learning
some new stuff. This book right here

419
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.160
gives you an idea that there is
a universe of photographs related to a twenty

420
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.920
four year old man that you know, we could learn a great deal about.

421
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.759
Now. As to whether he's actually
the assassin or not, as another

422
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:45.079
question, yeah, not going to
answer that one today. But his photographic

423
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:50.599
record is fascinating for the fact that
he was only twenty four and he was

424
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:57.039
involved in photography, so okay,
But putting that aside, just the events,

425
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.279
just the autopsy and the assassination from
the morn, you'd, like you

426
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:06.160
said, ten thousand images and that's
again. You might discover brand new things

427
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.800
or you might discover very overlooked things
where people have, you know, played

428
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:14.239
find a needle in a haystack And
I love that. The array and Deally

429
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.280
Plaza alone keeps me busy for days
on end if I go into it.

430
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.119
Looking for something, which, by
the way, have you assembled a fair

431
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.800
amount of stuff regarding Dealy Plaza to
your satisfaction? Do you think you have

432
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:32.480
a decent collection regarding just those few
minutes there that the presidential limousine was in

433
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.400
Dealy Plaza in that area at all? And I do say a few minutes.

434
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.280
I realized the shooting event took place
in seconds. But we have film

435
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:45.719
of them coming down certain streets.
We have Elm Street, we have Main

436
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:49.960
Street, we have so there's a
lot of images that were taken there,

437
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.480
guys. So there's a lot to
be studied. And it's over the course

438
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:57.159
of a few minutes before and after
and then of course getting to the hospital.

439
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:05.360
There's a lot there in those few
minutes during this event. So are

440
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.400
you satisfied with the collection you have
of that just yet? Number one?

441
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:14.159
And number two? When you get
there? I mean, do you find

442
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.239
that most people are not fully aware
of all the things that could be viewed

443
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:30.280
regarding the photographic evidence on the event
itself out? Oh, hopefully I didn't

444
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:34.199
lose you or you mute it or
something. Gee, all right, I

445
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.599
don't see him there, but you
know what, maybe maybe he lost me

446
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.239
on zoom and he'll come back around, I hope. So what I might

447
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:45.800
do is decide to take a break
here on the live stream and see if

448
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:51.360
we can't reconnect with Alex on the
zoom call, which I'm sending out live

449
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:58.280
on Ocelli dot com right now.
But yeah, stick around and we'll return

450
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:31.159
after this. In Denial Secret Wars
with air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock.

451
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:37.840
Secret wars became a staple of US
covert operations and are still happening today.

452
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:42.800
Marry Hancock's book In Denial rips the
cover off many of them, using

453
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.400
new files. It exposes things about
the Bay of Pigs that no one has

454
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:50.719
ever written about before. It shows
why it really failed and why the United

455
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:53.920
States did not learn from it.
It also shows why other countries today are

456
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:59.559
doing secret operations with more success.
This is the book that puts what some

457
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.679
want to deny into the light.
In Denial, Secret Wars with air Strikes

458
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:12.159
and Tanks Larry Hancock. For more
information, go to Larry hyphen Hancock dot

459
00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:15.760
com. Pick up your copy of
In Denial at Amazon dot com in digital

460
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:35.159
or physical. Well as about god
Damned time at Wait they wake up Now?

461
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:38.280
I've been talking about this is nineteen
fifty nine, about the corruption,

462
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:49.519
the incredible lies deception of the entire
superstructure of Western civilizations, and the incredible

463
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:58.840
treason, lunacy, lies deception.
It's just amazing how much has been done

464
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:06.639
in the past hundred years, said
the human Family. That was Joldan Maxwell

465
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.599
on the Chelly Effects. For more
pods with Jordan and Chuck, search out

466
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:15.679
Chelly dot com, along with hundreds
of other shows and topics as presented by

467
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:49.159
Chuck out Chelly on the Chelly dot
Com. Thanks very stench. Do you

468
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:53.159
like history? Real history that you
were never taught in schools? Why the

469
00:38:53.239 --> 00:39:00.400
Vietnam War Nuclear Balls in nation Building
in Southeast Asia by author and Mike's Swanson,

470
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:05.840
with new documentation never seen before that
will open your eyes to events that

471
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:10.320
led up to this. Why the
Vietnam War Nuclear Moms in nation Building in

472
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:16.920
Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen
sixty one. Get your copy today at

473
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Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam
War by author Mike Swanson, Wall Street

474
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:37.880
Street Window dot Com, Gold Silver, the stock Market, Wall Street Window

475
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:43.480
dot Com. Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep enough maybe

476
00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:47.920
you're thinking about getting started Wall Street, Windows dot com, do dot com.

477
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.360
Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of
the War State, understood these trends

478
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:57.480
professionally for many years, and now
he gives you the benefit of his knowledge.

479
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:04.719
Wall Street, Street, Little dot
do go there, now go there,

480
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:07.639
now go there, now go ahead, call it. And this is

481
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.519
in the Truth about the Jay of
a Assassination. Right, well, what

482
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:13.920
do you want to know Judie Baker's
wild claim? Oswald girlfriend, if you

483
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:16.639
knew Ruby and Barry answer weapons,
Really, I imagine I could claim I

484
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:21.039
have four wheels. It doesn't make
me a wagon. But okay, Oswald

485
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.000
was on the gold and I'm trying
to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.

486
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.000
Come on, now, has a
real effort on the day of assascomation.

487
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:31.000
Go into her claims. Go to
Amazon dot com, enter Judith Baker in

488
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.960
her own words. You'll get results
for a digital copy of a book where

489
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:40.280
Walt Brown utilizes her own words and
the known evidence in the case to get

490
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:45.960
at well a different perspective. Let's
say you can get Judith Barry Baker in

491
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:50.960
her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting

492
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.440
doctor Brown at Kia s jfk at
aol dot com. It's a fun book

493
00:40:55.480 --> 00:41:01.280
and it actually dissects the many,
many fantastic claims Judith Barry Baker in her

494
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:08.159
own words information Chili dot Com.
The War State by Michael Swanson explains the

495
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:13.679
great national transformation that took place and
put the Kennedy presidency in the context of

496
00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:19.199
the times and reveals never before published
information about the Cuban missile crisis. President

497
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.280
Kennedy would not have been assassinated if
he had been president two hundred years ago.

498
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:27.719
His assassination took place in the context
of the Cold War and the rise

499
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:30.639
of the national security state. Before
World War II, the United States was

500
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:36.199
a continental republic. In the decade
that followed it became an imperial superpower.

501
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.800
Generals such as Curtis Lamy not only
wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that

502
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:44.920
there were short range missiles on the
island armed with nuclear warheads that they could

503
00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:47.880
not destroy because they were on mobile
launchers. Their invasion could have led to

504
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:52.119
a Third World War, and they
wanted to go to war anyway. The

505
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:57.960
War State by Michael Swanson reveals why
and will show you what President Kennedy was

506
00:41:58.039 --> 00:43:00.239
up against. For more information,
war State dot Com there on things I

507
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:10.760
will make you understand, so lessen
your way less and show I am strong

508
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:45.559
enough to save you from save you
from yourself no time when my sa just

509
00:43:46.880 --> 00:44:21.840
just as you sas myself says,
getting mind, lay your side. Don't

510
00:44:22.960 --> 00:45:05.679
don't say I jo got my ya
got by. This must be sorry.

511
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:15.920
This is for you. Take lest
dog the same boy you don't say about

512
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:34.119
I take this stop, don't press
the soph y'all y'all, by my yall,

513
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.800
Joe, my ya got down,
my y'all, wi my y'all,

514
00:45:39.159 --> 00:46:05.599
y'all do this must be so yall
say is going on? Saw? I

515
00:46:05.800 --> 00:47:29.039
was like I took a style so
wide show down and down and opened out

516
00:47:29.199 --> 00:49:16.159
and only could hold open the Shelley
dot Com Radio revelation through conversation. The

517
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:20.360
second segment on a Wednesday, Wolden's
Day, middle of the week, and

518
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:24.119
it is a wild card. But
Alex dropped off the call there and so

519
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:28.360
we're just going to continue where we
left off. We got him back on

520
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:34.119
the zoom, so all is well. Anyway, let's let's turn my microphone

521
00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:36.519
down a touch on the live stream. All of a sudden, it's spiked

522
00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:38.639
up loud. All right, hey, live radio. It's the way it

523
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.960
rolls. Anyhow, if you're hearing
the podcast, you don't care, it

524
00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:45.159
doesn't matter. Time is yours and
you can move it around all over the

525
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:49.199
place. And maybe you didn't even
get this far in the podcast. Anyway,

526
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:52.400
welcome to it. Alex Harris is
with me and we're talking about the

527
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.079
JFK photographic stuff and how he got
into the case. And that's about as

528
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:59.960
far as we've gotten, so I'm
gonna shut up and let him tell us

529
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:04.199
a little more about it. We
were up to the point of saying,

530
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:08.119
okay, how large would you say
is the universal stuff? I mean ten

531
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:13.400
thousand, he said, And then
I was asking him if he satisfied with

532
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:19.119
his Dealy Plaza collection thus far,
if he thinks he has nearly everything that

533
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:23.559
could be gotten. And then a
second question of follow up was what have

534
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:30.719
you learned in collecting that array which
focuses around Deily Plaza directly? So I'll

535
00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:34.880
just give you those two easy ones. There, are you satisfied with your

536
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:39.400
collection? And what have you learned
from collecting those photos of the many things

537
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:44.400
that happened it justin Dealy Plaza in
the space of a very short amount of

538
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.599
time. Do you have a complete
photo array of all of it? Do

539
00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:52.840
you think? And if not,
what are you missing? And like I

540
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:55.199
said, are you happy with your
collection? And what have you learned?

541
00:50:55.599 --> 00:51:02.519
So Alex go ahead? Yeah,
I say, I'm fairly satisfied with my

542
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:07.760
collection so far. I know there's
definitely more to collect, and I'm finding

543
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:15.760
more almost every day, but yeah, I'm fairly satisfied with my archive at

544
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:22.880
the moment. See what was the
other question, Well, I did ask

545
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:27.920
you know what you have, Let's
go this way. What have you learned

546
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:34.119
as a result of collecting those photos
that again are just very tightly collected around

547
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.880
the events in Daly Plaza that day
at that time. What have you learned

548
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:46.079
of significance just by collecting those photos. I've definitely learned that there's quite a

549
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:55.360
few more photos than I thought related
to the assassination. I've learned quite a

550
00:51:55.400 --> 00:52:00.199
bit about the assassination through the photos. I have a very good idea of

551
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:09.000
a timeline second by second in daily
Plaza of all the photos. I could

552
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:15.440
definitely make a timeline. I just
haven't yet it's kind of difficult. Well,

553
00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:17.639
that is one of the ultimate goals
that I had always hoped to get

554
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:22.920
to if I could have kept my
collection together, but an ex wife made

555
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:25.239
sure I couldn't. But you know
the thing is, if I kept my

556
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:30.559
entire collection together, I wanted to
lay these things out chronologically and really say,

557
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:34.039
look, this was happening here and
here and here, and almost lay

558
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:37.159
out a second by second of events, people's movements and stuff like that,

559
00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:43.079
like a good, for instance,
a very controversial, uh you know,

560
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:47.159
individual that's often called the Babushka lady, is of interest. When you put

561
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:52.760
together an array of all the photos
in Daily Plaza, guess what I found.

562
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:55.559
There's about four of them. Now, maybe you found something else,

563
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:00.159
but there's four ladies with babushkas on
their head during that time. And then

564
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:07.599
I saw what about you? Uh, there is definitely seems to be more

565
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:16.599
than one people with that head covering, right, But I say, uh,

566
00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:23.199
there's only probably one or two.
With a camera. And the one

567
00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:30.639
we talk about almost always, the
one in the grass section by Elm Street,

568
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:35.719
is definitely not a movie camera.
That's a common misconception with that.

569
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:43.239
It's almost definitely a box type still
camera. Yes, uh, you know

570
00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:45.920
what. I concluded that many years
ago, and people take an issue with

571
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:52.760
me because that contradicts the story of
one Beverly Oliver h you know, who

572
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:57.079
stated that she had a movie camera
and that that is indeed her. Now,

573
00:53:57.159 --> 00:54:00.519
look, I'm not asking you to
say whether that is Everly. You're

574
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:02.679
not in your opinion right now.
A matter of fact, maybe that's something

575
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:08.119
you might talk about in Dallas.
But it's interesting you can go into deep

576
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:14.039
studies here and see for yourself a
great many things that have been ambiguous,

577
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:17.320
a great many things that we had
to take certain people's words for at certain

578
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:22.960
points. But if you look at
the photographic evidence, you find people that

579
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:28.159
said they didn't step into the street
did people that said they were facing certain

580
00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:32.320
directions at certain times, like the
Warren commissions. You know what, star

581
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.320
witness who said he was looking in
a certain direction at a certain time,

582
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.719
If you look at the photographic evidence, guess what he's lying, you know.

583
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:45.239
I mean, these were my conclusions. Alex. Perhaps you could correct

584
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:49.920
me, because well, I'm assuming
you have better eyesight than me, and

585
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:54.440
you might see things differently, But
I doubt you had studied it as long

586
00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:59.039
as I did. Doesn't mean you
didn't come to better conclusions though, because

587
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:02.320
I needed magnification and I do certainly
have bad eyesight. But with the best

588
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:07.679
evidence I could find, there is
a whole lot of interesting truth that is

589
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:14.239
revealed in the photographs that contradicts a
lot of people's statements. I can say

590
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:19.440
that at a minimum, what do
you think I'd say? There is a

591
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:24.960
fair amount of people who either didn't
remember right or did lie about what they

592
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:32.800
were doing at the time of the
assassination, or before or afterwards. Something

593
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:46.719
interesting that I came across is Associated
Press photographer James Altam's he took a few

594
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:57.960
photos apparently took a few photos over
at the intersection of Maine in Houston,

595
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:07.400
but it's come to my attention that
he might have lied about who took those

596
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:13.920
photos. They're obviously on the same
role as his other photos, but there

597
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:21.320
is some controversy over how who actually
took the photos with that camera. Ah,

598
00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:24.119
so it's on the same role of
film from the same camera, but

599
00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:29.360
as to who was actually in control
of it, there may be a controversy

600
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:34.199
that is interesting. Did you happen
to track down anything related to I'm jumping

601
00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:37.400
around a bit through the photos now
in Daly Plaza, if you don't mind,

602
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:42.599
did you happen to track down anything
on one mister Powell regarding his photograph

603
00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:46.840
of the school book depository, because
that is a rather controversial issue. First

604
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:51.679
of all, how is it that
an individual with his background got there.

605
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:54.360
I'm satisfied with his story that he
jumped off a train, went over there

606
00:56:54.400 --> 00:57:00.280
to go see Kennedy in the plaza, and then jump back on its train.

607
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:04.760
It's a strange story, but I
actually think it's correct. Oddly,

608
00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:07.039
what do you what are your thoughts
on that and that photograph even of the

609
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:14.880
book depository. Yeah, something I'll
dropping real quick here. I am interested

610
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:22.239
in letting people know a lot of
the photographer's full names. That's not an

611
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:24.920
issue that I see talked about a
lot. But I will be using the

612
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:30.280
photographers full names and probably be shortened
him to the last names whenever I can.

613
00:57:31.639 --> 00:57:37.760
But yeah, there was a photographer
he worked for Gosh, it was

614
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:43.039
the He was an Army intelligence photographer
by the name of James Wheeler Powell and

615
00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:49.239
Gey Plaza. I think he took
a few photos of the motorcade going by.

616
00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:55.039
He said he did, and Something
interesting I found is I saw someone

617
00:57:55.199 --> 00:58:04.239
claimed that they found how in the
Alptin six photogo. But the place where

618
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:08.599
he is standing in that photograph,
I believe it is him, is not

619
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:15.719
not at all consistent with his photo. And I've stood in the place where

620
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:22.920
he allegedly is an Alton photograph and
it does not match up with his photo.

621
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:30.960
So either he ran across the intersection
of Elm and Houston, or he

622
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:36.480
was lying, or that's really the
only well he could have misremembered. He

623
00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:42.159
could have lied, or yeah,
that's about it, you know, because

624
00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:45.280
the statement contradicts what you see in
the photographs. And here we go again.

625
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:50.679
There's a ton of this kind of
stuff. Even and look, you've

626
00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:52.880
been to the plaza, so you've
taken a look at the different vantage points

627
00:58:53.000 --> 00:59:00.239
that would have had to have been
necessary to get certain photographics images created.

628
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:04.000
And when you start to do that, and you start to try and place

629
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.679
people in the right place, it
becomes a bit of amaze. You can

630
00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:15.119
use their testimony to help you sometimes, but does it reveals and quite often

631
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:20.360
that things don't line up right.
I mean, there is a lot of

632
00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:23.440
oddity here and a lot of things
to be sorted out and this has caused

633
00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:28.519
a lot of controversy over the years. So look, I see that you've

634
00:59:28.519 --> 00:59:30.880
gotten into some deep studies. I
wanted to give people an idea, So

635
00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:35.920
we've done that. Can you do
me one last favor before I let you

636
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:39.280
go for tonight because we had this
little technical issue and a few other things.

637
00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:44.280
La la la la whatever, And
don't don't worry about it, no

638
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:47.760
big deal, and you're doing great. By the way, here's the thing

639
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:53.079
you're going to present in Dallas.
Do you already have your presentation laid out?

640
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:59.360
I do not right now. I
was going to present on something,

641
00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:06.719
but I change changed it a few
days ago. I don't know right right

642
01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:09.079
now what I'll be doing, but
I know it's going to be something fairly

643
01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:15.320
specific in the photographic evidence. I'm
not sure what excellent. Okay, So

644
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:20.519
you couldn't even really give us a
good little mini preview here because you're changing

645
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:22.519
it up as we speak. I
mean, it is just the beginning of

646
01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:28.360
September, and you and I will
both be present at the JFK Lancer Conference,

647
01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.119
the November and Dallas Conference, which
will run from the seventeenth to the

648
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:37.119
nineteenth of November this year. And
we'll be there. What is the name

649
01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:39.719
of that hotel again, I always
I keep forgetting it. It's the Lorenzo

650
01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:44.760
Hotel, the Lorenzo, right,
the Lorenzo Hotel, and that's where we

651
01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:50.039
will be. I intend to be
introducing Alex and others at the conference.

652
01:00:50.360 --> 01:00:54.880
Perhaps if if I find something significant
enough worthy of presentation, I'll make a

653
01:00:54.960 --> 01:01:00.480
presentation, but otherwise I intend to
introduce people and do a breakout and maybe

654
01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:02.679
show a film. I got a
few plans in the works, and I'll

655
01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:07.480
be giving away pens and a few
other things to people at the conference,

656
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:12.599
and I'm planning on bringing a couple
of things specifically for Alex. I want

657
01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:16.039
him to have some resources that I
so happen to have extra copies of.

658
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:22.559
And I want to see his research
go further because I stressed it a little

659
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:27.920
bit at the beginning here. But
you're thirteen years old. This is great

660
01:01:28.159 --> 01:01:31.400
that you're interested. I want to
see more people in your age group interested

661
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:37.400
before we're done. Since I couldn't
find out about your presentation, let me

662
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:42.079
find out about this. Do you
have any peers your own age who are

663
01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:45.159
into this, who you've been able
to get into this, or are there

664
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:49.239
any friends who are into this just
for the photographic aspects, just with his

665
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:52.440
historical aspects. I mean, do
you have any friends that are interested in

666
01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.599
history or well deep politics of any
kind or any of this stuff? I

667
01:01:55.679 --> 01:02:00.800
mean, or are you really the
lone wolf in your age group in your

668
01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:05.440
area there studying this stuff? Again
with great access because you're in the state

669
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:09.159
of Texas, and you have much
more access to places like Deily Plaza and

670
01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:15.480
the other historical sites that could be
linked to these events very easily. You

671
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:20.039
have ready access to any historical societies
and local residents, et cetera, et

672
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:23.559
cetera. But interesting thing is do
you have any peers though in your age

673
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:30.960
group? I mean, there is
a few of my friends that I've gotten

674
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:37.559
to do a little bit of more
research with me, but none that have

675
01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:42.800
done the amount of research that I
have. I'd say I'm the youngest one

676
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:47.400
that has done this much research.
Right, Well, I expected that answer,

677
01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:51.840
and I say again, look,
I got into this twenty fifth anniversary

678
01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:57.360
was nineteen eighty eight, Okay,
And that's when I got into it strong

679
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:00.719
and started doing actual research. Are
to call enough people and trying to speak

680
01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:04.880
to witnesses, which I found was
not the best way to gain evidence,

681
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:08.719
but was the best way to gain
a great many leads. And an interesting

682
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:15.639
thing happened there. I was only
sixteen. Now you're three years younger than

683
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:17.840
I was, and I was certainly
an odd ball. I was a musician,

684
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:22.719
I was a juvenile delinquent, etcetera, etcetera. And I mean that

685
01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:27.239
seriously, I was. And uh, none of my peers cared about this,

686
01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:30.079
none of them. Not the juvenile
delinquents, not the heavy metal musicians,

687
01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:32.719
Nope, Nope. In Jersey it
was like, shut up, boy,

688
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:37.599
what are you talking about? That
crap is on TV? Go watch

689
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:39.840
the thing on TV, because they
ran a bunch of documentaries then, and

690
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:44.880
TV was the way to reach Generation
X, but YouTube was the way to

691
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:47.559
reach your generation, least up until
recently. I don't know what it is

692
01:03:47.639 --> 01:03:52.440
now, TikTok. I don't know. Anyway, I'm guessing I got I

693
01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:55.400
got kids older than you and younger
than you, so I know what they're

694
01:03:55.679 --> 01:04:00.079
being reached by. Unfortunately, but
none of them are taking an interest.

695
01:04:00.119 --> 01:04:04.199
I can't even convince my own children
to take a real interest in this case.

696
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:11.079
I couldn't. They look at it
as dad's crazy crusade, and that's

697
01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:14.800
all there is to it, you
know. And the youngest one is nine,

698
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.360
the oldest one is twenty three.
And guess what, I'm a nut.

699
01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:23.920
My daughter understands that I'm a nut. She sympathizes with me, and

700
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:28.159
I know she's okay with me being
a nut. My two boys, I'm

701
01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:31.280
not so sure, but it's all
right. They know that Dad is into

702
01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:35.000
this. Gonna have to bring some
extra resources to Dallas, though, to

703
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:39.559
show you. I'm looking forward to
whatever it is you decide to present.

704
01:04:39.719 --> 01:04:42.760
If you need any help with your
presentation, I'm gonna do this in public

705
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.480
right now. If you need any
help, please, by all means,

706
01:04:45.639 --> 01:04:50.159
I'll be more than happy to give
you any advice i can. I've seen

707
01:04:50.239 --> 01:04:54.199
a lot of these I've been through
a lot of this stuff. I'm aware

708
01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:58.199
of the evidence. I'll tell you
all about the controversies that you might step

709
01:04:58.280 --> 01:05:01.199
on, like landmines here. If
you say certain things about certain people,

710
01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:05.079
are certain theories, you know,
regardless of the fact that you have facts

711
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:09.639
and you know evidence on your on
your side, it doesn't matter. Get

712
01:05:09.719 --> 01:05:12.719
ready for it. It is a
lot of fun. I really look forward

713
01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.239
to seeing what it is you do, and I hope you stick with this

714
01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:19.559
because, man, oh man,
we need people your age, you know,

715
01:05:20.239 --> 01:05:23.880
not too long ago, I was
seen as one of the younger people.

716
01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:27.559
I'm fifty one now. Yeah,
I was seen as one of the

717
01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:30.880
younger people, you know, twenty
years ago, okay, around that fortieth

718
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:34.480
anniversary, Around that thirtieth anniversary,
I was one of the younger people.

719
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:38.239
And believe me, if you were
in your twenties and into this, you

720
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:44.199
were still an oddball. But it's
it's okay. I say oddball lovingly,

721
01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:46.880
Alex. Don't worry. I'm not
picking on you. Yeah, this is

722
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:51.000
great. I'm so happy that somebody
younger is getting into this. And if

723
01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:55.119
there's anything you want to say,
or anything that we should have said during

724
01:05:55.159 --> 01:05:57.559
this discussion, I'm gonna give you
a chance to turn the floor over to

725
01:05:57.599 --> 01:06:00.679
you right now. But again,
I want to remind you, guys that

726
01:06:00.719 --> 01:06:05.159
will both be at the Lancer conference
November seventeenth and nineteenth. A bunch of

727
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:09.719
our friends are going to be there
from the network, not necessarily Alex's friends,

728
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:11.920
but they'll probably want to meet him
because they heard him on the show,

729
01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:15.639
you know, and things like that. But a bunch of my friends,

730
01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:18.000
including the guy I'm going on a
road trip with, and maybe my

731
01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:23.960
producer and a couple others will be
along for the ride, and hopefully we're

732
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:27.159
going to do a little breakout room
for the tenth anniversary of the o'chelli Effect,

733
01:06:27.159 --> 01:06:31.239
where we've done hundreds of shows on
the JFK assassination and I even did

734
01:06:31.320 --> 01:06:36.039
an awful, awful presentation in twenty
seventeen. But you know, live there,

735
01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:39.840
and I'm so glad this is face
to face and thank god we're not

736
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:44.760
having to mask up and stay six
feet apart, I think. But anyway,

737
01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:46.280
we're gonna go forward with this.
This is going to be a good

738
01:06:46.360 --> 01:06:49.800
thing, and Alex will be there
as well and really looking forward to it.

739
01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:53.639
So again, if there's anything you
want to throw in, Alex before

740
01:06:53.679 --> 01:06:57.440
we're all done tonight, anything you
want people to know, anything you want

741
01:06:57.480 --> 01:07:01.039
people to think about, whatever you
think is important, my friend, go

742
01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:05.440
for it. It's all you.
Yeah, I just wanted to I mentioned

743
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:12.920
this a little bit before, but
again, I'm interested in identifying all the

744
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:23.239
photographers and cameraman's full names. I
just wanted to say the White House,

745
01:07:24.760 --> 01:07:28.800
the last two, the photographer of
the last two days that film that was

746
01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:35.679
Thomas Moore Atkins. That's correct.
Yeah, and there's several others I know

747
01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:39.480
the full names of. I won't
list them out right now, of course,

748
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:45.039
but yeah, I am interested,
and I'd like to hear from people

749
01:07:45.079 --> 01:07:49.400
if they happen to know any of
the photographers full names, because there's quite

750
01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:57.519
a few I haven't found. Well, I assure you that people that have

751
01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:00.519
focused on the photographic evidence can provide
eyed you with a great many leads.

752
01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:05.719
Verify everything though, as best you
can, you know. And it's interesting

753
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:11.840
too because you have situations like you
got into the autopsy photos, and one

754
01:08:11.880 --> 01:08:15.119
of these days we'll have a discussion
deeper about that, because after all,

755
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:20.479
John Stringer is the photographer of record, right, But here's the problem,

756
01:08:21.079 --> 01:08:28.239
he doesn't claim ownership of some of
the negatives that are in existence. So

757
01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:32.119
and you have this kind of thing
has happened a few times where somebody claims

758
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:38.119
the providence of a photograph has come
from a particular photographer, came from a

759
01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:43.880
particular source. The oddity of say, even the backyard photographs. And guess

760
01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:46.520
what, Geneva White I think had
possession of one of those photographs before the

761
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:51.279
HSCA got a hold of it.
You know, there's all sorts of things

762
01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:57.800
floating around, and did Marina Oswald
actually take those photographs or not? Depending

763
01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:00.239
on which testimony you read, you
can answered a bunch of different ways.

764
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:05.920
It's not always easy to nail down
exactly who it is. So sometimes I

765
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:10.359
think you got to put an asterisk
next to the photographer because quite frankly,

766
01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:15.960
it's almost impossible to determine on occasion
where some of these images came from.

767
01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:19.159
Yeah, and also, unfortunately,
we were in an age where people have

768
01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:26.840
doctored things, people have damaged things
by digital representation, by other forms of

769
01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:31.239
mutilation, etc. And frankly we're
in we're in a bit of a big

770
01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:38.640
catchup game when you're trying to label
ten thousand pieces. But I figure if

771
01:09:38.680 --> 01:09:42.960
you're determined, you'll get it done. I think you'll get it done.

772
01:09:43.760 --> 01:09:45.800
So and I'd love to see it. I'd love to see a full on

773
01:09:46.119 --> 01:09:53.319
archive of the photographic evidence available to
well the world really but if you could

774
01:09:53.359 --> 01:09:57.279
collect it, I would be most
grateful, and I'm sure there would be

775
01:09:57.319 --> 01:10:00.840
others who would be as well,
especially if we had a search database of

776
01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:05.239
like every photographic image you could possibly
use in order to study aspects of the

777
01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:09.359
case. I think that would be
great, and perhaps we'll talk about that

778
01:10:09.479 --> 01:10:13.039
in the future. But anyway,
we're all done. Is there anything else

779
01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:16.319
that you want to add here?
I think that's all all right. So

780
01:10:16.479 --> 01:10:19.039
I'm gonna end this show the way
I end all of my shows. And

781
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:23.159
I want you guys again to remember
that we'll both be at that Lancer conference

782
01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:26.960
in November, and I hope that
some of you will join us there.

783
01:10:27.399 --> 01:10:30.800
But in the meantime, remember this
much, please, I am merely o'celly

784
01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:34.439
all of you, or indeed the
effect. Good night,