Back the educated teacher. Everything can be with me, with Sergio fajarto another
episode. Let' s touch on a theme. I' m going to
say it sounds cruel what I' m going to say, but I'
m going to say it so they know what we' re going to do.
Corruption is fashionable. I don' t like to say that phrase,
but it' s true. It takes a long time in our world,
in many parts of the world, but in these times the thing is serious
and to work on this topic, because I bring to whom I consider is
the most suitable person in Colombia to deal with this subject in the spirit of
this podcast video, to give it rigor, to be and age, to
explain, to understand that we learn and to become a chapter that expands the
look that we have on the subject of corruption. And that, sir,
is Andrés Hernández, externalist of the External University, which was what you studied.
Government and internal relations. Government and international relations. Andres, I'
ve known him a few years. I have tried to study what they produce
in international transparency. It' s not just any name I' m mentioning.
It is also the NGO in the world that has the lead, which
represents in the best way all that can be done. I study rigor to
deal with the issue of corruption on the planet and Andrés is the director of
international transparency Acá in Colombia. Andres, thank you for being here with me.
Thank you, Sergio, for the invitation and how good to be able
to address this issue calmly, rigorously and, hopefully, with some guidelines that
we can give from a dialogue. That' s right, if you'
re worried about explaining how to communicate with a lot of people here. We
' re gonna get a bunch of people who' re gonna pay attention to
us. But well, I always like to start talking a little bit about
Andrés Hernández, the person his first steps. It' s what I like
as the beginnings of these first steps, where you studied family context, I
always ask about people who have been important in your life. That teacher,
that teacher who marked you from college the University a little bit about that so
that we get here, then, to talk about corruption from the perspective of
international transparency. Very nice and I always thank you for that approach, because
sometimes we dehumanize the discussions and I think it is very important to see that
human side in everything we do and I like to share it because I am
a Bogotaan, son of parents and mother who came from outside to Bogotá,
but they came to Bogotá to look for no opportunities. My father from Chaparral,
Tolima, my mother of fusagasuga with Denmark, some big families, very
nice, that well, then, in their young age they came to Bogotá
to study, they formed with great effort and then we came to that context
that I think marked many of the people who lived in that period of drug
trafficking the eighties, a very complicated time of the country. I grew up
in that, not in my adolescence, because it was the bombs of the
posters and something that a little later covered me a lot in the life that
surrounded us the process 8, 000 and what was spoken at that time of
a very complicated country did not call us a failed country, etcetera. And
well, in the middle of that comes the opportunity of college and college on
the outside, with a chance to open the mind a lot to many things.
This career of international relations government that inspired me, marked me a lot
in life and in that context, because crossing international political reality, political reality
of the country, because here I came to these issues from very young and
I have followed master teacher. So remember that IgA at the University was Dr
Inestrosa, who was the rector of the outsourced university, who was the figure
at the college. Some family person, my grandfather was such and one discovers
a lot of tales of that nature. It' s nice because I think
the political vein, but more than political, social sensitivity and country comes very
much from the family, my mom, my mom who was also always very
committed to these issues, who worked many years in the sector. He published,
on the other hand, my dad, a person with a lot of
simplicity, very hard working and then they lead you to those values of devoting
yourself to what you do in college and many professors. That is the nice
thing about having had an interdisciplinary reading, of the things that have served me
a lot to understand the issue of the fight against corruption chiefs in addition,
throughout life also important is that, in the end, undoubtedly, is a
leader in these issues here in Colombia, also outside the world. I had
the opportunity to meet many anti- corruption activists in Latin America, in very
complex countries, in Venezuela, in Guatemala, who inspire you today, for
example, leaders with whom I share the Board of Directors of Global and Transparency
International, who are facing very critical situations in Georgia, for example. And
one says that beerraker and how inspiring a name of a professor of the starry.
So there is a teacher who helped me long before the world, Alexandra
García María Teresaya, also very knowledgeable people on international issues. Yeah, I
think that and and out there that line, of course many others that suddenly,
Right now it' s going to put me in the head, it
' s going to be a comment. You said your dad comes from chaparral,
Tolima, big land. I have had the opportunity to travel to Colombia
and remember perfectly entering Chaparral, land of greats, because from there comes a
number of people and have been very important in Colombian history. That' s
very important. So, I don' t forget that sign. Entering Chaparral,
Alfonso Gómez Méndez is an ejerral of a person who is today a prominent
person in the public life of Colombia and your mother of fusagasu Ga, who
always brings me to mind. I' m a biker fighting for the gardener,
because Fusagasugar has a special climate. It is a very nice village with
fantastic weather orchids. It is delicious then, but all that to say Acá
Bogotá is the mixture of the mixtures Bogotá is the capital of all of us
in Colombia and I always tell in way of anecdote. You stand on a
corner in Bogotá and in ten minutes pass people from all over Colombia. It
is the city of opportunities for so many people in Colombia. I love my
Medellin and it is my land, that is my heart, but Bogotá welcomes
and has taken many people in many moments. So, that' s right,
let' s go for corruption. Let' s do it judiciously.
We' re going in an orderly fashion. First, a definition of corruption,
the definition that we use and the one that I like the most is
the abuse of power or confidence in favour of a particular interest to the detriment
of the general interest. It is a definition that we use a lot in
international transparency, in transparency by Colombia highly criticized because it seems that it is
necessary to put more perspectives, often academic, or to adapt them the different
realities that we find. But what I like about that simple definition is that
first it touches something that is fundamental to our life in society, which is
trust, that is corruption, is to disappoint someone, it is to betray
the trust of someone who does trust you something in the second place, that
you take away and take advantage of that trust to what should not happen.
And thirdly, it creates an impact on others. And this also helps us
to differentiate that it can be corruption and what not, that it can be
more fraudulent, dishonest behavior. But we are very interested in that last element,
the impact that corruption has on the collective, on others, on the
country, because that is the most serious thing. I' ll be right
there. I like that definition. The one you' re giving is general,
but the basic sense is I take for myself something that isn' t
mine, that has a public sense and I' m defrauding that mondo.
Now one can go in to clarify and discuss that. I' m going
to share with you and Andrew something about the corruption that I explained to me.
This, of course, has to do with political corruption. But look
at this shape that I have to visualize. When you get robbed. If
you go down the street and a person arrives and snatches your cell phone,
you feel stripped. They took my cell phone. They took away not only
the object, but the photos of my granddaughter, for example, for me
they took away. I' m sorry corruption is an invisible robbery, because
resources are being stolen. Now I' m going to go into the end
of all this, of this conversation so that we land in Colombia, because
it' s time to do it. Anyway, then they' re stealing
some resources, but people don' t know. You don' t realize
it. Then they stole. So much you don' t feel that you
were taken away, because you never had it. And that' s the
invisible robbery. They are stealing from many people a lot of possibilities for their
life in some way without realizing it. And then, many times in that
world of corruption associated with politics, those people then go to those people who
stole from him to give him some crumbs of what was stolen. But his
pockets were full. That' s why corruption is so difficult, because you
don' t realize how we do it to know that we' re stealing
something right now that we haven' t seen, that you didn' t
have it. So they' re stealing from me, but I didn'
t have it in my hands. But, well, that' s a
way that I' ve always visualized and it' s good for me to
explain, and people, of course, stripped away, but they don'
t know. Okay. Okay, well, I' ve got to start
with the consequences that you' ve already started suggesting. Ready, this is
a robbery or something, what are the main consequences of corruption in society.
I already got in a little bit, but certainly ahead Andres, I think
that when we have studied corruption, with that difficulty that as we say invisible
in terms of not touching me is something hidden, then trying to land it
and to mention it is very difficult, but I think that a very serious
first consequence is precisely to break that citizen trust, say, interpersonal, but
also trust in our systems of government, between a person who chooses someone and
who should be playing a role in benefiting that society. So, I think
the first and strongest thing in terms of consequence, that' s the breach
of trust, because when there' s no trust, it' s very
difficult to live as a society, very hard to believe in others, make
pacts, do business. Let' s say that, moreover, the issue
of corruption internationally had a lot of echo in the nineties and then a few
years later, because before it was thought and said openly, because it is
that corruption is the oil that greases the machine and allows it to function,
among other things, in business environments. Not that impact on trust. It
is terrible and, therefore, a next impact is that I am not going
to know what these resources are going to be used in which, in theory,
they should be benefiting a society. Let us say that there is a
second impact in terms of distortion of those allocations or those priorities that we should
make as a society. Why, because when we are seeing, for example,
very strong gaps of inequality or we are seeing that we need to meet
certain populations, certain territories and certain needs because the effect of corruption is that
we are not using our resources to meet those needs that are priority. And,
of course, a third consequence is that it calls us into question our,
our vision for the future, our sustainability. That is, we are
viable when we have to distrust others how we are going to build our country,
our societies, then it puts a very strong burden on us in terms
of where we want to go. That perspective, for me, in terms
of vision for the future, is very complicated, because hope is not lost.
I totally agree. I think they' re trust key words. Trust
is the greatest wealth a person or institution can have, and trust means that
it is predictable that you know how you are acting and without trust is very
difficult. It is also a difficult concept to quantify, to express, but
it is certainly the greatest wealth and need that a society can have at different
levels. As I was pointing out. Within all of this, it'
s usually about good. Here' s what we' re saying. Try
to explain with concrete examples to reach many people. For example, a few
years ago it was repeated in Colombia. We all repeated because the Comptroller General
of Colombia said they were stolen. Corruption is worth 50 billion. I think
very few people knew how to write fifty billion, but fifty billion is a
number that sounds you can repeat how, from all that experience that you have,
you can make an effort to reach as many people as possible to understand
this that has that sophistication that we are talking about here, but that it
is necessary that it be digested by virtually anyone. Of course, we use
the allusion to the resources that are lost a lot, but I agree that
sometimes that is difficult to land and leads us even to an average situation of
itself, because then we talk about billions and how many zeros have a billion
and what that silver is for, and so on. And then the question
goes on and we never finished dimensionalizing it. Of course, there' s
a way to see it, and it' s good that we could have
done with that money. But to me and in transparency for Colombia, And
what interests us most is that we understand that corruption not only that money is
lost and that many works could have been done, but that it is lost
in terms of opportunities and guarantee of rights. Look at this impressive figure.
About 14 million people affected by corruption. We calculated in transparency for Colombia,
for about a thousand scandals that we analyzed between two thousand sixteen and two thousand
twenty. I mean, corruption is not just a matter of a transaction between
a few. It' s just that we' re impacting the lives of
millions of people in our country, obviously in the world. But also,
if we begin to disaggregate a little more who are the most affected? We
find that the population that has lost most access to rights to services that should
have are children and adolescents. A society that cannot prioritize is to focus the
care of its resources for its present and future generations. It is a society
that has to ask itself where we are going and that has to change.
Not then really what we want to get at is that corruption. Even though
I don' t feel like I' m getting my money, he'
s taking my chances. This may be how we talk about it at a
time when in Bogotá, one in the corners, you can meet someone and
all the regions. Well, as I get to the corner, I may
be a victim of corruption because things should be different or because there must be
a guarantee of a service that should be provided in a better way and that,
because of corruption, is not coming to me. So this connects me
a lot with something we say, and we need to make much more visible
who the victims of corruption are. And again, when we say fifty billion
pesos, then yes, then, and how much is the budget of the
country, for it is like three hundred million pesos, well, in a
lot of silver, but in the end, how we land this. So,
who are these victims of corruption, the people who are failing to receive
these benefits and this guarantee of rights and who are taking opportunities from them in
the day to day. To many people I can give an example that I
always believe is one that serves us. Remember that not many years ago the
rural Internet was stolen. There was an amount of resources to bring the Internet
to rural Colombia, to schools in rural Colombia. They stole it. What
happened, then, is that those rural children did not receive the Internet.
The education is lame. Teachers, teachers working there, cannot do their job
as they could, for example, being already a huge inequality between rural education
and urban education. To put it that way, they stole the opportunities of
those girls and those girls. The victims are them, they are their families,
of course, now who fixed them exactly. No one repairs and they
' re there and I don' t know, because we don' t
know how much damage is to the formation of their little boys, little girls
they would have had exactly. It' s tremendous. That is the most
important focus for us and, therefore, of course. We' ve been
talking very strongly about these anti- corruption issues for about three decades in the
world, but we need to put people at the center of this conversation and
it' s me which country I' m imagining, what level of well
- being I want to have and get and how corruption is becoming an obstacle
to that happening. So if I can' t understand it that way,
corruption becomes a fashionable issue, a topic that comes and goes, but not
really an issue that we have to solve so that we can meet our goals
as a society. What are these goals as a society, because in Colombia
we draw them in terms of public management, development plans, policies, but
in the end it is the guarantee of education, health, well- being,
economic opportunities. Today people are very concerned about unemployment surveys, about insecurity,
about the environment, which has to see corruption as an obstacle so that
we cannot realize those social goals. And that' s where we have to
put the spotlight. What are the causes of that of corruption, poverty,
that we are poor, then we are corrupt, education, that is very
bad I am doing the families that teach me the culture is that we come
from the Spanish and the United States came from English and we from Spanish,
then so we are Andres. What are the causes of corruption as far as
possible. It is a discussion that has been present on this subject for a
long time, because depending on how you logically explain certain causes, it is
that you take action to counteract. Yes, sir, and the big point
is that there is not a single cause that explains the full effect of the
consequence that corruption can have. And that' s why we need to see
this from different perspectives, from different points of view. The first thing that
was talked about in literature for a long time was good. That' s
an incentive issue. No, and let' s remember a lot about the
nineties. Again we came the ne or liberal fashion. No, then it
' s a matter of incentives, it' s a cost benefit itself,
it puts the right insectivities, it ends up exactly and I put the intents.
Then let' s raise the penalties and then this becomes cost- benefit
and solve the problem. No, that didn' t solve the problem,
but there' s a part of it on the issue of incentives. Then,
a lot was said about the fact that the rules of the game we
have are not strong enough for us and they are not well understood in society.
And then what we need is to have robust rules of the game and
then clearly we start with international frameworks of conventions, laws, statutes, and
helped with certain things, but it didn' t solve the problem either.
And then, I think he went in very hard, too. And this
goes as it goes in parallel, not the whole issue is not that we
are condemned by our culture and by our society. That' s how we
' re ruptous, if we are then, then no way we do it.
And then it came in very strong and is very developed recently the whole
approach of behavioral sciences, social norms and, of course, a pillar for
Bogotan Bogotans that we run a lot. Professor Antenas Mocus' s approach in
terms of seeing the separation between the legal, the social and the personal.
Moral and culture were exactly three of the things. I believe that in the
end, then the gaps and weaknesses around all of this, not having them
good incentives, not having enough strong institutional rules, but also recognizing the gaps
in society. Around this is what ends up generating certain levels of corruption around
that. I think we need to demystify certain things. First, the issue
of poverty. In many years it was believed that it is the poor countries
there that are corrupt, where those of the north have to become businesses.
But since it' s all corruption, then pra will touch us the silver.
It' s because they are and that' s a very difficult trap,
because quite the opposite. Corruption and we analyze it a lot in transparency
by colloquium is one of the causes that maintain gaps of inequality, of poverty
almost in a generational way. And another very big trap is that corruption is
in people' s ads. And then we' re all corrupt because we
' re doomed to that. And I think that' s more of a
lie we' ve been given to justify that we don' t have a
way out of this. The other way around. I think the more we
can see this from different disciplines to neurosciences help us in this. It'
s not like we can push more effective solutions. All this is complex,
I repeat, because we have to take it to the most basic level to
understand it. But now I was thinking. When you were talking, there
are a lot of phrases associated with the world of corruption. I' m
going to give you the ones that come to me that I remember, so
that we dispute them briefly and that represent the popular wisdom to say things.
They' re all the same, they promise, and they don' t
fulfill all the thieves we' re talking about. Well, there' s
a great despair of politicians in the political class that I would add. The
other, which is the steal, but does not then, as they are
all the same, let' s choose the stealer, but they do not
exactly good. I wasn' t going to give a recent political example,
but I' m not going to say it because there are people, there
' s one who said he didn' t steal, but he didn'
t do anything. I told him to steal, but to do something,
to do works. And that' s for me that' s fatal,
fatal, fatal, because it' s resigning and saying good. That'
s how this world is, that' s how it' s good.
I' ll say another one. I don' t need to get hit
but put me where it is. Yeah, yeah. Impressive. It'
s a brutal phrase because it' s look at me get in there and
when I' m there, I already see how agos closely associated with taking
advantage of the exact fifteen minutes the occasion, makes the thief exactly the mistake
another I learned in Mexico. Mexico has a lot of medical phrase, there
is a lot of corruption, a country that I love very much and that
has many similarities with Colombia on many issues. Anyone who doesn' t transact,
doesn' t advance, doesn' t make it easy, doesn'
t get to see others that sound at you. There is one that always
struck me, that we use in transparency for Colombia, one thing that we
did very nice, that was called the corruptur, that was in different cities
to talk with people that we met, to invite them to make a tour
of emblematic sites of corruption. And for that, we' re looking for
a lot of phrases, and one that kept ringing quite a bit is I
' m going to steal, but I' m going to steal a little
bit. It' s like the acceptance of hear, everything public is to
steal, but then I' m not going to do it that much.
Of course, there is the classic of just proportions. It' s not
clear that in Colombia, because it beats us so much and that whenever there
' s a big scandal someone comes out and says yes, that' s
what we should do. I say good, just for who, who'
s willing to get robbed a little bit. But exactly, yes, let
us then make the list of those who want to steal it a little bit
and then, then, steal it from them and do not rub it from
others. It is not a thing that because we also become narrative from which
we cannot free ourselves. Don' t look, we have to get rid
of that mental gap that we' re all groups and that there' s
nothing to do here, because if we keep that there, we lose and
we need to get out of that trap. That' s a trap.
I will say another, for another attitude associated with that world of corruption,
where good is that of the just proportions pay to get they come to steal
good enough illustration. Right, let' s see how you can fight corruption.
I remember very well a statement from you I' ve been talking about
for a few years. I am quoting from memory, but I have used
it and I have it in a few presentations that I make and I say
this says Andrés Hernández of international transparency and says the following, What are the
main ones, that is, the way it gets to corruption. What is
the main form, how corruption arrives. And I' m going to say
the answer that I read and says the election campaigns. That' s where
the biggest hole for corruption opens. I' m quoting you textually. I
' m right, because if not here you have the chance. No,
no, no place to do almost that, besides, there is a consensus
in all people that is the academic world very rigorous, but also of public
policy. They have tried to analyze the issue very seriously and say, therefore,
that the financing of campaigns, which is darkly opaque, is the gateway
to great corruption and pitifully. We have lived it and it has always been
a subject of much discussion in our country, in many countries. But I
believe that some additional elements of analysis must also be added to that. I
don' t think anyone' s willing to put money if they' re
going to lose it, that' s people, like we' re going
back to the incentives, the calculations. I put an illegal and regular money
in a campaign, because I know that whoever gets elected will pay me back
taxes, in contracts, in charges or in impunity, that is, investment
in campaign financing. It is because around the corner there is an expectation of
everyone, because not everyone, everyone, and that must be said too because
in this I understand sometimes I generalize and always remain with a remorse and tell
him I am being unfair, because here I am marking a lot of people
who have nothing to do with it. But, well, that pause is
fundamental, let' s say that' s why I also said in terms
of an irregular and legal bet. Not because, among other things, we
strongly advocate open, transparent funding for campaigns that support a democratic system. That
and I think that pause is very important. But when it is not,
when it is not open, when it is not accounted for, the big
problem is that this, in fact, seems to allow access to those contracts,
to their resources, to that clientelism or to that impunity, and that
is very delicate. Then how do we deal with that. I believe that
not only then and we return to the different disciplines that need to be put
in order to understand this topic. No, of course, public resources,
public office, must be made less manipulable. Then we need very clear rules
and capacities to control spending, to control who comes to power much more rigorously.
We need, of course, a system of justice that is much more
agile, always in the framework of respect for due process, but that shows
citizens results. But, on the other hand, we also have to attack
the sources of that illegal or irregular financing. And the great challenge we have
in Colombia to several Latin American countries is that corruption is not again a subject
of a couple of envelopes that cross under the table, but that we have
reached very complex levels of sophistication and some criminal groups that are almost behind this
issue. Then again we can' t. We need to analyze corruption,
its sources, its causes, its manifestations to know what is the most correct
measure we need. And then we lose the task when we think that we
need to control equally absolutely everyone, because the legitimate one we put a number
of requirements when the illegal one, the opaque one, is really moving easily
and to that we need to put some much more rigorous detection and sanction capabilities.
This topic touches me in personal terms, associated, because with my public
participation and many things come to mind. We are already going to look at
measures and actions, understanding the causes and how it is coming and your job
is to look at different alternatives to present them in this world of corruption and
what happens. For example, it is said that campaign funding is public,
all speeches are public. I' m going to say what I think at
once and that sounds commendable. But the problem is not exactly what you see,
that what you just said is legal, legitimate funding. It' s
the darkness to get in with bags and get the money. Already then it
can be all public funding. But if there is this world, it carries
the silver and no matter how public it has been. That' s right,
we' ve analyzed two or three things. Let' s say keys
around that debate. First of all, the FINA has no magic wands in
general in the fight against corruption. Not and it' s like the key
message, but yes, of course, there are solutions, there are strategies,
we can develop a little bit more. But on this particular issue of
public funding, what you have just said is fundamental not because you have in
a rule that all funding is going to be public, you will stop having
very large interests and money that pressure the exercise of public policy. Point one.
Secondly, today in Colombia funding is mixed in and in and the rules
tell us that it should be predominantly public. We didn' t even get
one- two percent public funding in the campaigns. Then why don' t
we bet that what we have today works. It' s just that advances
don' t work, cops don' t work, bank accounts don'
t work, and that' s what complains to anyone who wants to do
politics. Let' s say new without machinery and says good as I do
to do it independently, I have a number of requirements. Of course,
it would be very good for the State to provide me with advance resources,
but what needs to be done to ensure that this comes on time, too,
is extremely complicated. So, second point, let us make what is
today in legal terms, which should work. It worked. And the third
is that, in any case, we insist that private financing well done in
a legitimate transparent manner, even as our rules in the country put it,
is a legitimate right of participation and has been recognized by the Constitutional Court.
Andres. I' m going to talk about something I think is a good
Colombian. I am not going to make it Latin American, because there are
some cultural elements that we have, but here there is a kind of fetishism
associated with the norms, with the laws. We in Colombia often believe that
there is a problem and we respond by saying there is this law and the
problem has already been solved. That is a very very perverse thing, very
harmful to the structure of our society. I speak in personal terms. Here
he has been in public debates on the issue of corruption. And then,
at the time there is a person who says no death penalty, there are
no people who death penalty. For the corrupt, they are taking away food
from boys and girls, the death penalty or life imprisonment. And then the
people who listen to the inthesis are absolutely right to see how to deal with
the problem, because in Colombia we often believe in this story, in the
laws, and that I think is very harmful, of course, that we
need the laws. No more was missing, but that fetishism allows us to
do the problems, that we do not solve, the problems that we stay
in a statement and always remembers that phrase or a phrase that says it comes.
I believe that from the colony it is obeyed, but it is not
fulfilled. If that is also an issue, very much debated. I from
a time to here insist that laws are very important to fight corruption, because
you cannot fight corruption outside the law. All right, that would go ahead
and it' s all gone. Unfortunately, then, of course, we
need laws, but the chain, let' s say, doesn' t
end there, because more there are laws that often have gaps. No,
no, everything we can solve points of law. But if we need those
instruments and we need to continue to strengthen that capacity that we have within the
legal framework, to confront this problem. But completely agree, the issue doesn
' t end and it almost starts, because all that comes forward is the
implementation assessment of whether that works or works. And there is the biggest gap
we have, not only in Colombia, but Latin America. I can say
that with data that we have in international transperience of the legal framework in many
countries, among other things, one of the best topics in which in standards
in America it has it. In several countries of America we have it advanced
in campaign financing. But in practice the gap is dramatic, it is very
sad. Not then does it bring a little frustration. Not for what we
have more laws and in the end they will not be enforced. So there
' s what we' re going to leave aside that and then let'
s look the other way and go back to the sentences of more opportunists or
how I manage them in the day to day and that' s a very
big problem that we have in our country and in our region, because it
' s that we need not only to show that our systems in democracy work,
but that they produce results for everyone, and corruption is a problem so
that that' s the ogre. There again we have to put a lot
of strategic vision, because it is not then about outside legality and democratic systems,
getting to the goods and services people need, job security or peace,
etcetera. Because, then, we could perfectly have an authoritarian system that was
very effective, but that takes liberties, takes rights ahead, and that'
s a problem we have in America. You have to attack him It'
s not all right. What is really worth is rules in which we are
all agreed upon and which lead to societal purposes. But again, the fight
against corruption cannot become a flag to strengthen populist discourses and authoritarian discourses. They
told me how to fight corruption. The best way to fight corruption is for
corrupt people not to win the elections. Good, but you' re not
saying anything. Then the other one says to cut off his hand and then
the one who cuts it in his hand says no. This one is going
to solve it and it never happens, of course. But the memory is
too short. But when I said don' t win the elections, don
' t get to power, it' s that once a corrupt man gets
to take it out it' s basically or very difficult, very difficult,
and there are honest people who work to do it. But when they already
do the damage, that is, they have already done the damage, they
have already stolen the silver, the cost to the State to do the whole
process of following it, to judicialize it, to condemn it as those people
have to be condemned with those laws, is very high. It' s
over asking for the one they had to answer for. That happens later on
to other levels and are eternitys to discover that corrupt one. He' s
already done the damage. There are some people who say I' m going
to jail and then something and I enjoy what I have, that is to
say this. That' s why I always insist. What happens is that,
because it is very difficult to explain all this, but the best thing
is that we get there I have a vision and I know that those raised
about the fight against corruption and it is the political will. This is also
complex in terms of public discussion. It' s the ethical condition of people.
That is how I say that the corrupt do not arrive, because a
person who has an ethical condition will not allow corruption. It is difficult,
of course, but we depend on individuals who act correctly. I' m
not talking about anything extraordinary different. Act correctly who has power and who has
influence. There is no doubt that a number of things also generate me.
It comes to mind in this matter. First, try again to repair or
recompose what has already been lost supremely difficult. In that we agree and there
is no person, let us say not only aware of these issues, but
he has exercised some control with which I have not spoken in twenty years of
career, which does not coincide in that. The counter- investigation organs may
have all the power, but they say once things happen. Putting people in
jail, getting money back is practically impossible. I don' t want to
create hopelessness with this, but we do have to target it, especially at
what prevention mechanisms work exactly. And that, as a society, we have
to put it back in the first order of priority on this issue. But
the other very important thing that stands for sergio and is not just a topic
of the political and public world let' s look at what we need in
business or in the organizational sector. What is the combination that we insist we
have to do is a combination between culture and control. We can' t
have control systems, we go back to legality, normal for everyone. Without
culture it was not working, or we can have a culture that is suddenly
challenged by dilemmas that could have benefited from practical rules so that the result could
have been better. So this is even in companies. We see, for
example, very responsible companies, with which we always talk very interesting, some
of which put very strict control systems and are spent on a lot of money
and it works, but others that put much more emphasis on the cultural issue
and also works. In the end, it' s not the one and
the other, but how we find the proper control of these two things.
It works for the public, it works for the private. And there you
come back, snots that are so lacking in Colombia, because he was the
person who brought the concept of citizen culture and did it in Bogotá, because
he is our capital and that has an impact. Everything he does in Bogotá
is known throughout the country. If you do it in another city, very
little, but since it is known in Bogotá and he speaks of law,
culture and morality, that is, here are the laws all that many rules.
Culture is how we behave as a group and morality each individual. And
the challenge we have is for those three to work in unison? And if
they work in unison, then we' re going to have transparency conditions and
I' m going to say transparency. This is called international transparency. I
believe that the main antidote to fighting corruption is already said, the political will
of those who have some kind of leadership power over actions and transparency. That
word is the key. For me, it' s the one that gets
us the most into it and you guys work hard on it. Explain to
us and it' s a very powerful word. First, because it is
relatively simple to understand and what transparency is going to let you see exactly how
translucent it is. It' s a window. I want to see the
simple fact of seeing is a transformation in the way we citizens relate to the
rulers or also in the private sector. So it is a fundamental principle to
be able to see to, therefore, make decisions and take actions. No,
and that' s why we insist so much at a time when things
become super complex in ex- scandals that we hear where our levels of transparency
and access to information are, how we do so that really citizenship can be
much clearer, more timely and more understandable, the way we are making decisions
in the country. So that' s why it' s so strong again
in being able to make itself understood, but also to take action in that
concept of transparency. But another one that I want to highlight very much what
Sergio says is that of leadership, is that here we cannot stand by and
we need that will for the moment that we remove the politics, it is
the will to do things, it is the decision to lead to some change
and we do not need a great leader to make the change of the magic
wand that we talked about that will solve the programs. We exercise leadership from
each of the people we live in society. One very nice thing we did
recently with some transparency allies for Colombia, and is to analyze this issue more
of corruption from the social point of view and the distrust we have among people
we don' t know. When we achieve, in an experiment to put
two people who did not know each other before and who, therefore, had
as distrustful with certain levels of trust find the way that they then develop is
very different, is much more open and the possibility of cheating to generate corruption
between them is already very low. Not then, that kind of thing about
me can make the change. I too have the leadership to contribute to the
transformation of these problems. I agree with that. Andres and I have happened
as a person who has an image of some people I haven' t seen.
When you are with someone who has seen you, distrust and may qualify
you in multiple ways to sit down and chat. That person may be like
that, but a sense of conversation serves to break down a lot of barriers
and understand us as people, and that is a fundamental part of building trust.
Tremendous work that you, Andrés and Duro Duro, have, because it
is pedaling, looking for people, carrying the message everywhere. They have a
lot of activities every election campaign, they sign transparency pacts, the candidates,
the candidates. Anyway, that' s all a world, but, fortunately,
they exist. I say it with all the pleasure of saying fortunately there
are such activities. He' s got a lot of work, a lot
of frustrations, because it' s very frustrating what' s going on in
our country today. I am not going to go into it, because here
I usually try not to turn this into a discussion that can be associated as
a political interest. But what is happening in Colombia today is tremendous? Tremendous?
Tremendous? Like this? Is that so? It is and I believe
that in the end, the purpose of I am in transparency for Colombia we
recognize it. We' ve got this. What we want is to drive
change, it' s a word, a little technical, a systemic change.
But in the end, the question is how we manage to pull out
more allies, achieve more allies, talk about these issues, open discussions and
make decisions and actions between many, because it is that a single civil society
organization, neither control nor political entity, nor business leader in isolation will achieve
it. Let' s push the change and push it together. That'
s what gives us hope, because if we just look at the case behind
us, it' s very frustrating, it' s not very sad,
but what gives us hope is to be able to dialogue with these issues,
to talk to many people throughout the country, that when we start landing these
things, they give them added value for their life in society, for their
personal life. And that' s where we find hope again and are filled
with encouragement to move forward. And that' s the message I think we
need to keep. We are not condemned to corruption and if we make some
changes, of course, some big ones, but others that go through our
own attitude and our life in society, we can face this problem matitonces has
a campaign that I like very much. I have a photo out there that
sometimes public on the networks being corrupt is not normal. Last to say goodbye
very simply the message and let' s get out of our minds again that
normalization of corruption, which seems to have become a little popular. Then we
make corruption or transactions or agreements that could be called corrupt, as if it
were a way to solve our daily lives. Not that. It' s
not normal for Roben, it' s not normal for me to have a
behavior that affects that trust I have with others. That' s not normal.
The normal thing is that we' re honest, the normal thing is
that we can trust, the normal thing is that we can jointly build our
good in society. And that message is very simple. Let' s get
him back to our head, from our day to day. Being corrupt isn
' t normal. I have to say something else because I was thinking that
one of the I think corruption is a very big, very difficult, very
difficult cancer. We' ve heard a lot of things. There is one
thing we lack in Colombia that is part of this whole environment and in many
cases there is no social sanction. Some people know they' re corrupt.
Then they walked with their wealth, their cars and their things were in prison.
Everyone knows they stole and nothing happens. One of the things is social
sanction. In spite of the fact that each of us is not normal,
each one of us can provide basic ethical norms and if each one, in
his or her own space of dimension, does it make great progress and that
there is a social sanction, which in Colombia is very but very few the
social ns that I agree with. But in addition to that, a complex
issue is crossed between our country, which is fear and that is an issue
in which we also insist a great deal on transparency, for Colombia we have
to socially, of course, also legally and in other areas, but return
to the value of being able to say things. By this I mean to
denounce, but, because I want to put it in simpler ways. To
say things I hope, in conditions in which people who speak will not be
threatened, will not be affected. But we started at the beginning. Let
' s say social that someone who speaks and says something to protect let'
s say a collective good is not an SAPP is a person who is helping
us build and protect the public. I' m still for self- program,
but let' s say protection of the informant, that that' s
one of the many people know and then people who say well, if I
don' t pay, I don' t work and I know that everyone
who' s competing with me is paid mind, then it' s silly.
If he doesn' t pay, that' s how it' s
going to be a word that' s ugly, but he deserves very fucked
up. There' s no right, but there' s a lot going
on. And people who tell you to look, I know this happened ruling.
Look, this happened to me, but I' m not able to
go and report it I' m afraid of it. And there are many
people who are afraid and there are more than one he denounces. And we
have already seen what happens to protect people who report, even within this world,
from crime, because many times this opens up and there is one among
criminals who talks that we are seeing begin to talk, we have to protect
them. That' s how hard it is. All this good, Andrew,
for let us not go on. Let' s not go on because
being corrupt isn' t normal. Let' s keep that fantastic phrase and
thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on that task. It'
s a tremendous task. I have the personal knowledge of what they do and
I always demand them and that' s why I wanted to have this chapter
here with us. Thank you very much, Andres. Thank you so much,
Sergio, and I' m glad to be here with the professor.
Ready until the next program remember we can be seen and heard on all streaming
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