WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:06.879 Back the educated teacher. Everything can be with me, with Sergio fajarto another 2 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:11.119 episode. Let' s touch on a theme. I' m going to 3 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:13.960 say it sounds cruel what I' m going to say, but I' 4 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:15.080 m going to say it so they know what we' re going to do. 5 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:21.519 Corruption is fashionable. I don' t like to say that phrase, 6 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:27.039 but it' s true. It takes a long time in our world, 7 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:37.600 in many parts of the world, but in these times the thing is serious 8 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:43.679 and to work on this topic, because I bring to whom I consider is 9 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:48.079 the most suitable person in Colombia to deal with this subject in the spirit of 10 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:53.520 this podcast video, to give it rigor, to be and age, to 11 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:58.039 explain, to understand that we learn and to become a chapter that expands the 12 00:00:58.039 --> 00:00:59.920 look that we have on the subject of corruption. And that, sir, 13 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:06.519 is Andrés Hernández, externalist of the External University, which was what you studied. 14 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:11.439 Government and internal relations. Government and international relations. Andres, I' 15 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:15.680 ve known him a few years. I have tried to study what they produce 16 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:21.400 in international transparency. It' s not just any name I' m mentioning. 17 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:29.959 It is also the NGO in the world that has the lead, which 18 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.920 represents in the best way all that can be done. I study rigor to 19 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.879 deal with the issue of corruption on the planet and Andrés is the director of 20 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:45.640 international transparency Acá in Colombia. Andres, thank you for being here with me. 21 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:49.439 Thank you, Sergio, for the invitation and how good to be able 22 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:57.079 to address this issue calmly, rigorously and, hopefully, with some guidelines that 23 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:00.519 we can give from a dialogue. That' s right, if you' 24 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:02.519 re worried about explaining how to communicate with a lot of people here. We 25 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.200 ' re gonna get a bunch of people who' re gonna pay attention to 26 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:08.520 us. But well, I always like to start talking a little bit about 27 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:15.639 Andrés Hernández, the person his first steps. It' s what I like 28 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:21.639 as the beginnings of these first steps, where you studied family context, I 29 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:25.080 always ask about people who have been important in your life. That teacher, 30 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:30.400 that teacher who marked you from college the University a little bit about that so 31 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.199 that we get here, then, to talk about corruption from the perspective of 32 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:39.879 international transparency. Very nice and I always thank you for that approach, because 33 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:46.759 sometimes we dehumanize the discussions and I think it is very important to see that 34 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:54.479 human side in everything we do and I like to share it because I am 35 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:59.439 a Bogotaan, son of parents and mother who came from outside to Bogotá, 36 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.280 but they came to Bogotá to look for no opportunities. My father from Chaparral, 37 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:07.479 Tolima, my mother of fusagasuga with Denmark, some big families, very 38 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:14.719 nice, that well, then, in their young age they came to Bogotá 39 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:22.520 to study, they formed with great effort and then we came to that context 40 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:28.479 that I think marked many of the people who lived in that period of drug 41 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:32.000 trafficking the eighties, a very complicated time of the country. I grew up 42 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:37.840 in that, not in my adolescence, because it was the bombs of the 43 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.759 posters and something that a little later covered me a lot in the life that 44 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.120 surrounded us the process 8, 000 and what was spoken at that time of 45 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:51.360 a very complicated country did not call us a failed country, etcetera. And 46 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:55.599 well, in the middle of that comes the opportunity of college and college on 47 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.199 the outside, with a chance to open the mind a lot to many things. 48 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.800 This career of international relations government that inspired me, marked me a lot 49 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:13.199 in life and in that context, because crossing international political reality, political reality 50 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.199 of the country, because here I came to these issues from very young and 51 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:23.240 I have followed master teacher. So remember that IgA at the University was Dr 52 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.600 Inestrosa, who was the rector of the outsourced university, who was the figure 53 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.959 at the college. Some family person, my grandfather was such and one discovers 54 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:38.600 a lot of tales of that nature. It' s nice because I think 55 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:43.120 the political vein, but more than political, social sensitivity and country comes very 56 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.360 much from the family, my mom, my mom who was also always very 57 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:50.480 committed to these issues, who worked many years in the sector. He published, 58 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:56.560 on the other hand, my dad, a person with a lot of 59 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:02.079 simplicity, very hard working and then they lead you to those values of devoting 60 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.600 yourself to what you do in college and many professors. That is the nice 61 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:11.360 thing about having had an interdisciplinary reading, of the things that have served me 62 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:15.959 a lot to understand the issue of the fight against corruption chiefs in addition, 63 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.319 throughout life also important is that, in the end, undoubtedly, is a 64 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:27.480 leader in these issues here in Colombia, also outside the world. I had 65 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:34.240 the opportunity to meet many anti- corruption activists in Latin America, in very 66 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:39.319 complex countries, in Venezuela, in Guatemala, who inspire you today, for 67 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.160 example, leaders with whom I share the Board of Directors of Global and Transparency 68 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.160 International, who are facing very critical situations in Georgia, for example. And 69 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:53.399 one says that beerraker and how inspiring a name of a professor of the starry. 70 00:05:53.680 --> 00:06:00.199 So there is a teacher who helped me long before the world, Alexandra 71 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:10.240 García María Teresaya, also very knowledgeable people on international issues. Yeah, I 72 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.240 think that and and out there that line, of course many others that suddenly, 73 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.000 Right now it' s going to put me in the head, it 74 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.120 ' s going to be a comment. You said your dad comes from chaparral, 75 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:24.920 Tolima, big land. I have had the opportunity to travel to Colombia 76 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.879 and remember perfectly entering Chaparral, land of greats, because from there comes a 77 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.680 number of people and have been very important in Colombian history. That' s 78 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:35.959 very important. So, I don' t forget that sign. Entering Chaparral, 79 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:42.000 Alfonso Gómez Méndez is an ejerral of a person who is today a prominent 80 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.319 person in the public life of Colombia and your mother of fusagasu Ga, who 81 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:53.680 always brings me to mind. I' m a biker fighting for the gardener, 82 00:06:53.759 --> 00:07:00.000 because Fusagasugar has a special climate. It is a very nice village with 83 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:05.800 fantastic weather orchids. It is delicious then, but all that to say Acá 84 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:12.759 Bogotá is the mixture of the mixtures Bogotá is the capital of all of us 85 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:15.000 in Colombia and I always tell in way of anecdote. You stand on a 86 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:19.600 corner in Bogotá and in ten minutes pass people from all over Colombia. It 87 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:24.079 is the city of opportunities for so many people in Colombia. I love my 88 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:28.920 Medellin and it is my land, that is my heart, but Bogotá welcomes 89 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:32.800 and has taken many people in many moments. So, that' s right, 90 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.519 let' s go for corruption. Let' s do it judiciously. 91 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:42.120 We' re going in an orderly fashion. First, a definition of corruption, 92 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.199 the definition that we use and the one that I like the most is 93 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:55.199 the abuse of power or confidence in favour of a particular interest to the detriment 94 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:01.319 of the general interest. It is a definition that we use a lot in 95 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:09.279 international transparency, in transparency by Colombia highly criticized because it seems that it is 96 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.920 necessary to put more perspectives, often academic, or to adapt them the different 97 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.839 realities that we find. But what I like about that simple definition is that 98 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.920 first it touches something that is fundamental to our life in society, which is 99 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.439 trust, that is corruption, is to disappoint someone, it is to betray 100 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:33.679 the trust of someone who does trust you something in the second place, that 101 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.679 you take away and take advantage of that trust to what should not happen. 102 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.879 And thirdly, it creates an impact on others. And this also helps us 103 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.639 to differentiate that it can be corruption and what not, that it can be 104 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:54.440 more fraudulent, dishonest behavior. But we are very interested in that last element, 105 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.600 the impact that corruption has on the collective, on others, on the 106 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.799 country, because that is the most serious thing. I' ll be right 107 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.080 there. I like that definition. The one you' re giving is general, 108 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:11.360 but the basic sense is I take for myself something that isn' t 109 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.840 mine, that has a public sense and I' m defrauding that mondo. 110 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:18.360 Now one can go in to clarify and discuss that. I' m going 111 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:26.960 to share with you and Andrew something about the corruption that I explained to me. 112 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:31.000 This, of course, has to do with political corruption. But look 113 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:37.480 at this shape that I have to visualize. When you get robbed. If 114 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.279 you go down the street and a person arrives and snatches your cell phone, 115 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:46.080 you feel stripped. They took my cell phone. They took away not only 116 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.799 the object, but the photos of my granddaughter, for example, for me 117 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:58.879 they took away. I' m sorry corruption is an invisible robbery, because 118 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.399 resources are being stolen. Now I' m going to go into the end 119 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.679 of all this, of this conversation so that we land in Colombia, because 120 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:07.559 it' s time to do it. Anyway, then they' re stealing 121 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.759 some resources, but people don' t know. You don' t realize 122 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:13.879 it. Then they stole. So much you don' t feel that you 123 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.960 were taken away, because you never had it. And that' s the 124 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:26.200 invisible robbery. They are stealing from many people a lot of possibilities for their 125 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.039 life in some way without realizing it. And then, many times in that 126 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.799 world of corruption associated with politics, those people then go to those people who 127 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.120 stole from him to give him some crumbs of what was stolen. But his 128 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.279 pockets were full. That' s why corruption is so difficult, because you 129 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:46.120 don' t realize how we do it to know that we' re stealing 130 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.679 something right now that we haven' t seen, that you didn' t 131 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:50.639 have it. So they' re stealing from me, but I didn' 132 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:52.559 t have it in my hands. But, well, that' s a 133 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.600 way that I' ve always visualized and it' s good for me to 134 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.000 explain, and people, of course, stripped away, but they don' 135 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:05.320 t know. Okay. Okay, well, I' ve got to start 136 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.600 with the consequences that you' ve already started suggesting. Ready, this is 137 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:13.679 a robbery or something, what are the main consequences of corruption in society. 138 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.200 I already got in a little bit, but certainly ahead Andres, I think 139 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:24.639 that when we have studied corruption, with that difficulty that as we say invisible 140 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.639 in terms of not touching me is something hidden, then trying to land it 141 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:37.000 and to mention it is very difficult, but I think that a very serious 142 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:46.279 first consequence is precisely to break that citizen trust, say, interpersonal, but 143 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.879 also trust in our systems of government, between a person who chooses someone and 144 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:58.720 who should be playing a role in benefiting that society. So, I think 145 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.559 the first and strongest thing in terms of consequence, that' s the breach 146 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.679 of trust, because when there' s no trust, it' s very 147 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.919 difficult to live as a society, very hard to believe in others, make 148 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.960 pacts, do business. Let' s say that, moreover, the issue 149 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:20.399 of corruption internationally had a lot of echo in the nineties and then a few 150 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.759 years later, because before it was thought and said openly, because it is 151 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.120 that corruption is the oil that greases the machine and allows it to function, 152 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.720 among other things, in business environments. Not that impact on trust. It 153 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.679 is terrible and, therefore, a next impact is that I am not going 154 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.960 to know what these resources are going to be used in which, in theory, 155 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.679 they should be benefiting a society. Let us say that there is a 156 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:56.720 second impact in terms of distortion of those allocations or those priorities that we should 157 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.039 make as a society. Why, because when we are seeing, for example, 158 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:05.000 very strong gaps of inequality or we are seeing that we need to meet 159 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.000 certain populations, certain territories and certain needs because the effect of corruption is that 160 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:15.039 we are not using our resources to meet those needs that are priority. And, 161 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:22.600 of course, a third consequence is that it calls us into question our, 162 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.279 our vision for the future, our sustainability. That is, we are 163 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:35.759 viable when we have to distrust others how we are going to build our country, 164 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:41.960 our societies, then it puts a very strong burden on us in terms 165 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:43.200 of where we want to go. That perspective, for me, in terms 166 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.960 of vision for the future, is very complicated, because hope is not lost. 167 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.559 I totally agree. I think they' re trust key words. Trust 168 00:13:54.559 --> 00:14:01.279 is the greatest wealth a person or institution can have, and trust means that 169 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:07.720 it is predictable that you know how you are acting and without trust is very 170 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:15.320 difficult. It is also a difficult concept to quantify, to express, but 171 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.120 it is certainly the greatest wealth and need that a society can have at different 172 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:26.000 levels. As I was pointing out. Within all of this, it' 173 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.000 s usually about good. Here' s what we' re saying. Try 174 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:35.720 to explain with concrete examples to reach many people. For example, a few 175 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:41.080 years ago it was repeated in Colombia. We all repeated because the Comptroller General 176 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.960 of Colombia said they were stolen. Corruption is worth 50 billion. I think 177 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:50.159 very few people knew how to write fifty billion, but fifty billion is a 178 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:56.840 number that sounds you can repeat how, from all that experience that you have, 179 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:03.600 you can make an effort to reach as many people as possible to understand 180 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.360 this that has that sophistication that we are talking about here, but that it 181 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:15.159 is necessary that it be digested by virtually anyone. Of course, we use 182 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.200 the allusion to the resources that are lost a lot, but I agree that 183 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:24.519 sometimes that is difficult to land and leads us even to an average situation of 184 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.200 itself, because then we talk about billions and how many zeros have a billion 185 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.799 and what that silver is for, and so on. And then the question 186 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.879 goes on and we never finished dimensionalizing it. Of course, there' s 187 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.879 a way to see it, and it' s good that we could have 188 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.000 done with that money. But to me and in transparency for Colombia, And 189 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:48.159 what interests us most is that we understand that corruption not only that money is 190 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:52.600 lost and that many works could have been done, but that it is lost 191 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:58.399 in terms of opportunities and guarantee of rights. Look at this impressive figure. 192 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:04.000 About 14 million people affected by corruption. We calculated in transparency for Colombia, 193 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.879 for about a thousand scandals that we analyzed between two thousand sixteen and two thousand 194 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:15.840 twenty. I mean, corruption is not just a matter of a transaction between 195 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:22.080 a few. It' s just that we' re impacting the lives of 196 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:23.759 millions of people in our country, obviously in the world. But also, 197 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:30.200 if we begin to disaggregate a little more who are the most affected? We 198 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:37.240 find that the population that has lost most access to rights to services that should 199 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:44.279 have are children and adolescents. A society that cannot prioritize is to focus the 200 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.360 care of its resources for its present and future generations. It is a society 201 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.200 that has to ask itself where we are going and that has to change. 202 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.039 Not then really what we want to get at is that corruption. Even though 203 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:02.320 I don' t feel like I' m getting my money, he' 204 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.079 s taking my chances. This may be how we talk about it at a 205 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.079 time when in Bogotá, one in the corners, you can meet someone and 206 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.039 all the regions. Well, as I get to the corner, I may 207 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:17.119 be a victim of corruption because things should be different or because there must be 208 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:22.599 a guarantee of a service that should be provided in a better way and that, 209 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.680 because of corruption, is not coming to me. So this connects me 210 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.799 a lot with something we say, and we need to make much more visible 211 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.519 who the victims of corruption are. And again, when we say fifty billion 212 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.160 pesos, then yes, then, and how much is the budget of the 213 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.920 country, for it is like three hundred million pesos, well, in a 214 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:42.319 lot of silver, but in the end, how we land this. So, 215 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:47.960 who are these victims of corruption, the people who are failing to receive 216 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:53.680 these benefits and this guarantee of rights and who are taking opportunities from them in 217 00:17:53.960 --> 00:18:00.200 the day to day. To many people I can give an example that I 218 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.400 always believe is one that serves us. Remember that not many years ago the 219 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:14.799 rural Internet was stolen. There was an amount of resources to bring the Internet 220 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:22.880 to rural Colombia, to schools in rural Colombia. They stole it. What 221 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.839 happened, then, is that those rural children did not receive the Internet. 222 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:33.680 The education is lame. Teachers, teachers working there, cannot do their job 223 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.960 as they could, for example, being already a huge inequality between rural education 224 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:44.559 and urban education. To put it that way, they stole the opportunities of 225 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.599 those girls and those girls. The victims are them, they are their families, 226 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:56.319 of course, now who fixed them exactly. No one repairs and they 227 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.079 ' re there and I don' t know, because we don' t 228 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.640 know how much damage is to the formation of their little boys, little girls 229 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.000 they would have had exactly. It' s tremendous. That is the most 230 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.680 important focus for us and, therefore, of course. We' ve been 231 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.440 talking very strongly about these anti- corruption issues for about three decades in the 232 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:19.440 world, but we need to put people at the center of this conversation and 233 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:23.799 it' s me which country I' m imagining, what level of well 234 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.039 - being I want to have and get and how corruption is becoming an obstacle 235 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.799 to that happening. So if I can' t understand it that way, 236 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.119 corruption becomes a fashionable issue, a topic that comes and goes, but not 237 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.680 really an issue that we have to solve so that we can meet our goals 238 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.960 as a society. What are these goals as a society, because in Colombia 239 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.240 we draw them in terms of public management, development plans, policies, but 240 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.759 in the end it is the guarantee of education, health, well- being, 241 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:59.119 economic opportunities. Today people are very concerned about unemployment surveys, about insecurity, 242 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.720 about the environment, which has to see corruption as an obstacle so that 243 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.880 we cannot realize those social goals. And that' s where we have to 244 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.519 put the spotlight. What are the causes of that of corruption, poverty, 245 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:18.160 that we are poor, then we are corrupt, education, that is very 246 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:25.960 bad I am doing the families that teach me the culture is that we come 247 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.519 from the Spanish and the United States came from English and we from Spanish, 248 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.039 then so we are Andres. What are the causes of corruption as far as 249 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:41.599 possible. It is a discussion that has been present on this subject for a 250 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:51.119 long time, because depending on how you logically explain certain causes, it is 251 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.799 that you take action to counteract. Yes, sir, and the big point 252 00:20:53.880 --> 00:21:00.160 is that there is not a single cause that explains the full effect of the 253 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:06.119 consequence that corruption can have. And that' s why we need to see 254 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.279 this from different perspectives, from different points of view. The first thing that 255 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.960 was talked about in literature for a long time was good. That' s 256 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.440 an incentive issue. No, and let' s remember a lot about the 257 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:22.160 nineties. Again we came the ne or liberal fashion. No, then it 258 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.920 ' s a matter of incentives, it' s a cost benefit itself, 259 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.000 it puts the right insectivities, it ends up exactly and I put the intents. 260 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:33.119 Then let' s raise the penalties and then this becomes cost- benefit 261 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.599 and solve the problem. No, that didn' t solve the problem, 262 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.319 but there' s a part of it on the issue of incentives. Then, 263 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.440 a lot was said about the fact that the rules of the game we 264 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.240 have are not strong enough for us and they are not well understood in society. 265 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.880 And then what we need is to have robust rules of the game and 266 00:21:53.920 --> 00:22:00.599 then clearly we start with international frameworks of conventions, laws, statutes, and 267 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.920 helped with certain things, but it didn' t solve the problem either. 268 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:07.880 And then, I think he went in very hard, too. And this 269 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:12.160 goes as it goes in parallel, not the whole issue is not that we 270 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.039 are condemned by our culture and by our society. That' s how we 271 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.720 ' re ruptous, if we are then, then no way we do it. 272 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:25.759 And then it came in very strong and is very developed recently the whole 273 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.960 approach of behavioral sciences, social norms and, of course, a pillar for 274 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.200 Bogotan Bogotans that we run a lot. Professor Antenas Mocus' s approach in 275 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:41.599 terms of seeing the separation between the legal, the social and the personal. 276 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.839 Moral and culture were exactly three of the things. I believe that in the 277 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:49.920 end, then the gaps and weaknesses around all of this, not having them 278 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:57.000 good incentives, not having enough strong institutional rules, but also recognizing the gaps 279 00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:03.240 in society. Around this is what ends up generating certain levels of corruption around 280 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:11.039 that. I think we need to demystify certain things. First, the issue 281 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.319 of poverty. In many years it was believed that it is the poor countries 282 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:19.240 there that are corrupt, where those of the north have to become businesses. 283 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:22.440 But since it' s all corruption, then pra will touch us the silver. 284 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.640 It' s because they are and that' s a very difficult trap, 285 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.319 because quite the opposite. Corruption and we analyze it a lot in transparency 286 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:37.240 by colloquium is one of the causes that maintain gaps of inequality, of poverty 287 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.960 almost in a generational way. And another very big trap is that corruption is 288 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:48.079 in people' s ads. And then we' re all corrupt because we 289 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.440 ' re doomed to that. And I think that' s more of a 290 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:56.440 lie we' ve been given to justify that we don' t have a 291 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.400 way out of this. The other way around. I think the more we 292 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:06.240 can see this from different disciplines to neurosciences help us in this. It' 293 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:10.920 s not like we can push more effective solutions. All this is complex, 294 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.640 I repeat, because we have to take it to the most basic level to 295 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.079 understand it. But now I was thinking. When you were talking, there 296 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:22.519 are a lot of phrases associated with the world of corruption. I' m 297 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.920 going to give you the ones that come to me that I remember, so 298 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:33.440 that we dispute them briefly and that represent the popular wisdom to say things. 299 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:38.440 They' re all the same, they promise, and they don' t 300 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.880 fulfill all the thieves we' re talking about. Well, there' s 301 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:52.200 a great despair of politicians in the political class that I would add. The 302 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.000 other, which is the steal, but does not then, as they are 303 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:59.960 all the same, let' s choose the stealer, but they do not 304 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:03.359 exactly good. I wasn' t going to give a recent political example, 305 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.920 but I' m not going to say it because there are people, there 306 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.400 ' s one who said he didn' t steal, but he didn' 307 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:08.039 t do anything. I told him to steal, but to do something, 308 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:14.279 to do works. And that' s for me that' s fatal, 309 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.599 fatal, fatal, because it' s resigning and saying good. That' 310 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:19.079 s how this world is, that' s how it' s good. 311 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.359 I' ll say another one. I don' t need to get hit 312 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:27.200 but put me where it is. Yeah, yeah. Impressive. It' 313 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:33.400 s a brutal phrase because it' s look at me get in there and 314 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:41.720 when I' m there, I already see how agos closely associated with taking 315 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.960 advantage of the exact fifteen minutes the occasion, makes the thief exactly the mistake 316 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.039 another I learned in Mexico. Mexico has a lot of medical phrase, there 317 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:52.720 is a lot of corruption, a country that I love very much and that 318 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:56.680 has many similarities with Colombia on many issues. Anyone who doesn' t transact, 319 00:25:56.119 --> 00:26:02.599 doesn' t advance, doesn' t make it easy, doesn' 320 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:03.200 t get to see others that sound at you. There is one that always 321 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:08.240 struck me, that we use in transparency for Colombia, one thing that we 322 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.000 did very nice, that was called the corruptur, that was in different cities 323 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:17.519 to talk with people that we met, to invite them to make a tour 324 00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.240 of emblematic sites of corruption. And for that, we' re looking for 325 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:26.359 a lot of phrases, and one that kept ringing quite a bit is I 326 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:26.759 ' m going to steal, but I' m going to steal a little 327 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:34.880 bit. It' s like the acceptance of hear, everything public is to 328 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:37.839 steal, but then I' m not going to do it that much. 329 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:45.079 Of course, there is the classic of just proportions. It' s not 330 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.799 clear that in Colombia, because it beats us so much and that whenever there 331 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:52.200 ' s a big scandal someone comes out and says yes, that' s 332 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:56.319 what we should do. I say good, just for who, who' 333 00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.680 s willing to get robbed a little bit. But exactly, yes, let 334 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.960 us then make the list of those who want to steal it a little bit 335 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.000 and then, then, steal it from them and do not rub it from 336 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:11.039 others. It is not a thing that because we also become narrative from which 337 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:17.000 we cannot free ourselves. Don' t look, we have to get rid 338 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:18.920 of that mental gap that we' re all groups and that there' s 339 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.960 nothing to do here, because if we keep that there, we lose and 340 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.319 we need to get out of that trap. That' s a trap. 341 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:33.519 I will say another, for another attitude associated with that world of corruption, 342 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:40.000 where good is that of the just proportions pay to get they come to steal 343 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:45.759 good enough illustration. Right, let' s see how you can fight corruption. 344 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:52.519 I remember very well a statement from you I' ve been talking about 345 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:56.440 for a few years. I am quoting from memory, but I have used 346 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.640 it and I have it in a few presentations that I make and I say 347 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:07.799 this says Andrés Hernández of international transparency and says the following, What are the 348 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.880 main ones, that is, the way it gets to corruption. What is 349 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.880 the main form, how corruption arrives. And I' m going to say 350 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:22.079 the answer that I read and says the election campaigns. That' s where 351 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:29.319 the biggest hole for corruption opens. I' m quoting you textually. I 352 00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:32.000 ' m right, because if not here you have the chance. No, 353 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.279 no, no place to do almost that, besides, there is a consensus 354 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:40.519 in all people that is the academic world very rigorous, but also of public 355 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.680 policy. They have tried to analyze the issue very seriously and say, therefore, 356 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:52.279 that the financing of campaigns, which is darkly opaque, is the gateway 357 00:28:52.640 --> 00:29:03.920 to great corruption and pitifully. We have lived it and it has always been 358 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:07.759 a subject of much discussion in our country, in many countries. But I 359 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:15.799 believe that some additional elements of analysis must also be added to that. I 360 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:21.960 don' t think anyone' s willing to put money if they' re 361 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:25.000 going to lose it, that' s people, like we' re going 362 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:29.519 back to the incentives, the calculations. I put an illegal and regular money 363 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:36.079 in a campaign, because I know that whoever gets elected will pay me back 364 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:41.599 taxes, in contracts, in charges or in impunity, that is, investment 365 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.079 in campaign financing. It is because around the corner there is an expectation of 366 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.200 everyone, because not everyone, everyone, and that must be said too because 367 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.839 in this I understand sometimes I generalize and always remain with a remorse and tell 368 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.559 him I am being unfair, because here I am marking a lot of people 369 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:02.759 who have nothing to do with it. But, well, that pause is 370 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:07.160 fundamental, let' s say that' s why I also said in terms 371 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:11.720 of an irregular and legal bet. Not because, among other things, we 372 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:19.240 strongly advocate open, transparent funding for campaigns that support a democratic system. That 373 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.640 and I think that pause is very important. But when it is not, 374 00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:27.599 when it is not open, when it is not accounted for, the big 375 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:36.000 problem is that this, in fact, seems to allow access to those contracts, 376 00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:40.599 to their resources, to that clientelism or to that impunity, and that 377 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.880 is very delicate. Then how do we deal with that. I believe that 378 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.960 not only then and we return to the different disciplines that need to be put 379 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.279 in order to understand this topic. No, of course, public resources, 380 00:30:52.359 --> 00:31:00.880 public office, must be made less manipulable. Then we need very clear rules 381 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:07.039 and capacities to control spending, to control who comes to power much more rigorously. 382 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:12.799 We need, of course, a system of justice that is much more 383 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:17.000 agile, always in the framework of respect for due process, but that shows 384 00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:22.960 citizens results. But, on the other hand, we also have to attack 385 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:27.480 the sources of that illegal or irregular financing. And the great challenge we have 386 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:33.079 in Colombia to several Latin American countries is that corruption is not again a subject 387 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.720 of a couple of envelopes that cross under the table, but that we have 388 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.039 reached very complex levels of sophistication and some criminal groups that are almost behind this 389 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:48.079 issue. Then again we can' t. We need to analyze corruption, 390 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.759 its sources, its causes, its manifestations to know what is the most correct 391 00:31:52.759 --> 00:32:00.799 measure we need. And then we lose the task when we think that we 392 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:05.000 need to control equally absolutely everyone, because the legitimate one we put a number 393 00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:09.880 of requirements when the illegal one, the opaque one, is really moving easily 394 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:15.880 and to that we need to put some much more rigorous detection and sanction capabilities. 395 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:20.799 This topic touches me in personal terms, associated, because with my public 396 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:29.000 participation and many things come to mind. We are already going to look at 397 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:32.279 measures and actions, understanding the causes and how it is coming and your job 398 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:39.759 is to look at different alternatives to present them in this world of corruption and 399 00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:44.799 what happens. For example, it is said that campaign funding is public, 400 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:50.440 all speeches are public. I' m going to say what I think at 401 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:55.279 once and that sounds commendable. But the problem is not exactly what you see, 402 00:32:55.400 --> 00:33:00.559 that what you just said is legal, legitimate funding. It' s 403 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:04.839 the darkness to get in with bags and get the money. Already then it 404 00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.920 can be all public funding. But if there is this world, it carries 405 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:13.920 the silver and no matter how public it has been. That' s right, 406 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.000 we' ve analyzed two or three things. Let' s say keys 407 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:20.799 around that debate. First of all, the FINA has no magic wands in 408 00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:24.599 general in the fight against corruption. Not and it' s like the key 409 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:30.319 message, but yes, of course, there are solutions, there are strategies, 410 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:31.160 we can develop a little bit more. But on this particular issue of 411 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:37.119 public funding, what you have just said is fundamental not because you have in 412 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:40.359 a rule that all funding is going to be public, you will stop having 413 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:47.039 very large interests and money that pressure the exercise of public policy. Point one. 414 00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:53.480 Secondly, today in Colombia funding is mixed in and in and the rules 415 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:59.359 tell us that it should be predominantly public. We didn' t even get 416 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.839 one- two percent public funding in the campaigns. Then why don' t 417 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.920 we bet that what we have today works. It' s just that advances 418 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.960 don' t work, cops don' t work, bank accounts don' 419 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.159 t work, and that' s what complains to anyone who wants to do 420 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.159 politics. Let' s say new without machinery and says good as I do 421 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.840 to do it independently, I have a number of requirements. Of course, 422 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:23.000 it would be very good for the State to provide me with advance resources, 423 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:28.519 but what needs to be done to ensure that this comes on time, too, 424 00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:30.679 is extremely complicated. So, second point, let us make what is 425 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:37.079 today in legal terms, which should work. It worked. And the third 426 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:43.280 is that, in any case, we insist that private financing well done in 427 00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:45.920 a legitimate transparent manner, even as our rules in the country put it, 428 00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:52.159 is a legitimate right of participation and has been recognized by the Constitutional Court. 429 00:34:52.480 --> 00:35:00.840 Andres. I' m going to talk about something I think is a good 430 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.199 Colombian. I am not going to make it Latin American, because there are 431 00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:12.639 some cultural elements that we have, but here there is a kind of fetishism 432 00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.880 associated with the norms, with the laws. We in Colombia often believe that 433 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:22.039 there is a problem and we respond by saying there is this law and the 434 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:30.199 problem has already been solved. That is a very very perverse thing, very 435 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.519 harmful to the structure of our society. I speak in personal terms. Here 436 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.119 he has been in public debates on the issue of corruption. And then, 437 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:45.320 at the time there is a person who says no death penalty, there are 438 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:47.039 no people who death penalty. For the corrupt, they are taking away food 439 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:52.800 from boys and girls, the death penalty or life imprisonment. And then the 440 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:59.320 people who listen to the inthesis are absolutely right to see how to deal with 441 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.760 the problem, because in Colombia we often believe in this story, in the 442 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:07.639 laws, and that I think is very harmful, of course, that we 443 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:13.360 need the laws. No more was missing, but that fetishism allows us to 444 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.480 do the problems, that we do not solve, the problems that we stay 445 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.079 in a statement and always remembers that phrase or a phrase that says it comes. 446 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:24.159 I believe that from the colony it is obeyed, but it is not 447 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:30.480 fulfilled. If that is also an issue, very much debated. I from 448 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:38.119 a time to here insist that laws are very important to fight corruption, because 449 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:45.280 you cannot fight corruption outside the law. All right, that would go ahead 450 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:51.920 and it' s all gone. Unfortunately, then, of course, we 451 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.920 need laws, but the chain, let' s say, doesn' t 452 00:36:55.960 --> 00:37:01.320 end there, because more there are laws that often have gaps. No, 453 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.639 no, everything we can solve points of law. But if we need those 454 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:09.199 instruments and we need to continue to strengthen that capacity that we have within the 455 00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:14.079 legal framework, to confront this problem. But completely agree, the issue doesn 456 00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.840 ' t end and it almost starts, because all that comes forward is the 457 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:22.800 implementation assessment of whether that works or works. And there is the biggest gap 458 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:25.920 we have, not only in Colombia, but Latin America. I can say 459 00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:32.400 that with data that we have in international transperience of the legal framework in many 460 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:37.320 countries, among other things, one of the best topics in which in standards 461 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:38.800 in America it has it. In several countries of America we have it advanced 462 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:45.000 in campaign financing. But in practice the gap is dramatic, it is very 463 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:50.039 sad. Not then does it bring a little frustration. Not for what we 464 00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:52.159 have more laws and in the end they will not be enforced. So there 465 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:54.960 ' s what we' re going to leave aside that and then let' 466 00:37:54.960 --> 00:38:00.679 s look the other way and go back to the sentences of more opportunists or 467 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:04.840 how I manage them in the day to day and that' s a very 468 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:12.760 big problem that we have in our country and in our region, because it 469 00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:17.760 ' s that we need not only to show that our systems in democracy work, 470 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:21.039 but that they produce results for everyone, and corruption is a problem so 471 00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.079 that that' s the ogre. There again we have to put a lot 472 00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:30.760 of strategic vision, because it is not then about outside legality and democratic systems, 473 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:36.719 getting to the goods and services people need, job security or peace, 474 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:43.559 etcetera. Because, then, we could perfectly have an authoritarian system that was 475 00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.559 very effective, but that takes liberties, takes rights ahead, and that' 476 00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:53.320 s a problem we have in America. You have to attack him It' 477 00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:58.920 s not all right. What is really worth is rules in which we are 478 00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:05.119 all agreed upon and which lead to societal purposes. But again, the fight 479 00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:14.199 against corruption cannot become a flag to strengthen populist discourses and authoritarian discourses. They 480 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:17.400 told me how to fight corruption. The best way to fight corruption is for 481 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:22.920 corrupt people not to win the elections. Good, but you' re not 482 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:25.119 saying anything. Then the other one says to cut off his hand and then 483 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.440 the one who cuts it in his hand says no. This one is going 484 00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:30.960 to solve it and it never happens, of course. But the memory is 485 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:32.960 too short. But when I said don' t win the elections, don 486 00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.239 ' t get to power, it' s that once a corrupt man gets 487 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:43.920 to take it out it' s basically or very difficult, very difficult, 488 00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.480 and there are honest people who work to do it. But when they already 489 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:47.519 do the damage, that is, they have already done the damage, they 490 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:52.400 have already stolen the silver, the cost to the State to do the whole 491 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.239 process of following it, to judicialize it, to condemn it as those people 492 00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:59.119 have to be condemned with those laws, is very high. It' s 493 00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.960 over asking for the one they had to answer for. That happens later on 494 00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:07.800 to other levels and are eternitys to discover that corrupt one. He' s 495 00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:10.400 already done the damage. There are some people who say I' m going 496 00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:14.119 to jail and then something and I enjoy what I have, that is to 497 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:15.599 say this. That' s why I always insist. What happens is that, 498 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:20.039 because it is very difficult to explain all this, but the best thing 499 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:25.320 is that we get there I have a vision and I know that those raised 500 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:32.320 about the fight against corruption and it is the political will. This is also 501 00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:37.199 complex in terms of public discussion. It' s the ethical condition of people. 502 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.320 That is how I say that the corrupt do not arrive, because a 503 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:45.400 person who has an ethical condition will not allow corruption. It is difficult, 504 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:50.719 of course, but we depend on individuals who act correctly. I' m 505 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.039 not talking about anything extraordinary different. Act correctly who has power and who has 506 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:59.960 influence. There is no doubt that a number of things also generate me. 507 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:08.239 It comes to mind in this matter. First, try again to repair or 508 00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:14.480 recompose what has already been lost supremely difficult. In that we agree and there 509 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:20.760 is no person, let us say not only aware of these issues, but 510 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:23.400 he has exercised some control with which I have not spoken in twenty years of 511 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:25.719 career, which does not coincide in that. The counter- investigation organs may 512 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:30.880 have all the power, but they say once things happen. Putting people in 513 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:39.159 jail, getting money back is practically impossible. I don' t want to 514 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:44.360 create hopelessness with this, but we do have to target it, especially at 515 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:50.400 what prevention mechanisms work exactly. And that, as a society, we have 516 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:54.440 to put it back in the first order of priority on this issue. But 517 00:41:54.519 --> 00:42:00.000 the other very important thing that stands for sergio and is not just a topic 518 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:02.960 of the political and public world let' s look at what we need in 519 00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:07.480 business or in the organizational sector. What is the combination that we insist we 520 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:10.719 have to do is a combination between culture and control. We can' t 521 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:15.679 have control systems, we go back to legality, normal for everyone. Without 522 00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:22.039 culture it was not working, or we can have a culture that is suddenly 523 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:30.440 challenged by dilemmas that could have benefited from practical rules so that the result could 524 00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:35.000 have been better. So this is even in companies. We see, for 525 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.719 example, very responsible companies, with which we always talk very interesting, some 526 00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:43.599 of which put very strict control systems and are spent on a lot of money 527 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:46.960 and it works, but others that put much more emphasis on the cultural issue 528 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:52.159 and also works. In the end, it' s not the one and 529 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.880 the other, but how we find the proper control of these two things. 530 00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:00.400 It works for the public, it works for the private. And there you 531 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:04.400 come back, snots that are so lacking in Colombia, because he was the 532 00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:07.480 person who brought the concept of citizen culture and did it in Bogotá, because 533 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:09.440 he is our capital and that has an impact. Everything he does in Bogotá 534 00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:14.400 is known throughout the country. If you do it in another city, very 535 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.440 little, but since it is known in Bogotá and he speaks of law, 536 00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:21.679 culture and morality, that is, here are the laws all that many rules. 537 00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:29.199 Culture is how we behave as a group and morality each individual. And 538 00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:32.960 the challenge we have is for those three to work in unison? And if 539 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:38.679 they work in unison, then we' re going to have transparency conditions and 540 00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:45.039 I' m going to say transparency. This is called international transparency. I 541 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:51.400 believe that the main antidote to fighting corruption is already said, the political will 542 00:43:51.480 --> 00:44:01.519 of those who have some kind of leadership power over actions and transparency. That 543 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:07.239 word is the key. For me, it' s the one that gets 544 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:12.239 us the most into it and you guys work hard on it. Explain to 545 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.159 us and it' s a very powerful word. First, because it is 546 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.800 relatively simple to understand and what transparency is going to let you see exactly how 547 00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:22.440 translucent it is. It' s a window. I want to see the 548 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:28.880 simple fact of seeing is a transformation in the way we citizens relate to the 549 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:35.559 rulers or also in the private sector. So it is a fundamental principle to 550 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.199 be able to see to, therefore, make decisions and take actions. No, 551 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:45.280 and that' s why we insist so much at a time when things 552 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:51.559 become super complex in ex- scandals that we hear where our levels of transparency 553 00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:58.280 and access to information are, how we do so that really citizenship can be 554 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:04.199 much clearer, more timely and more understandable, the way we are making decisions 555 00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.840 in the country. So that' s why it' s so strong again 556 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:13.280 in being able to make itself understood, but also to take action in that 557 00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:16.440 concept of transparency. But another one that I want to highlight very much what 558 00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:22.199 Sergio says is that of leadership, is that here we cannot stand by and 559 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:28.079 we need that will for the moment that we remove the politics, it is 560 00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:32.239 the will to do things, it is the decision to lead to some change 561 00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:37.639 and we do not need a great leader to make the change of the magic 562 00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:42.239 wand that we talked about that will solve the programs. We exercise leadership from 563 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:46.039 each of the people we live in society. One very nice thing we did 564 00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:52.519 recently with some transparency allies for Colombia, and is to analyze this issue more 565 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:58.760 of corruption from the social point of view and the distrust we have among people 566 00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:02.199 we don' t know. When we achieve, in an experiment to put 567 00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:06.400 two people who did not know each other before and who, therefore, had 568 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:12.360 as distrustful with certain levels of trust find the way that they then develop is 569 00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:17.199 very different, is much more open and the possibility of cheating to generate corruption 570 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:22.320 between them is already very low. Not then, that kind of thing about 571 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:28.239 me can make the change. I too have the leadership to contribute to the 572 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:31.400 transformation of these problems. I agree with that. Andres and I have happened 573 00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:36.679 as a person who has an image of some people I haven' t seen. 574 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:39.079 When you are with someone who has seen you, distrust and may qualify 575 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:46.159 you in multiple ways to sit down and chat. That person may be like 576 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:52.239 that, but a sense of conversation serves to break down a lot of barriers 577 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:59.159 and understand us as people, and that is a fundamental part of building trust. 578 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:05.639 Tremendous work that you, Andrés and Duro Duro, have, because it 579 00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:12.920 is pedaling, looking for people, carrying the message everywhere. They have a 580 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.599 lot of activities every election campaign, they sign transparency pacts, the candidates, 581 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:21.079 the candidates. Anyway, that' s all a world, but, fortunately, 582 00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:27.199 they exist. I say it with all the pleasure of saying fortunately there 583 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:31.599 are such activities. He' s got a lot of work, a lot 584 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.519 of frustrations, because it' s very frustrating what' s going on in 585 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.039 our country today. I am not going to go into it, because here 586 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:39.039 I usually try not to turn this into a discussion that can be associated as 587 00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:45.440 a political interest. But what is happening in Colombia today is tremendous? Tremendous? 588 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.639 Tremendous? Like this? Is that so? It is and I believe 589 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.280 that in the end, the purpose of I am in transparency for Colombia we 590 00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:55.239 recognize it. We' ve got this. What we want is to drive 591 00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:58.840 change, it' s a word, a little technical, a systemic change. 592 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.320 But in the end, the question is how we manage to pull out 593 00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:08.119 more allies, achieve more allies, talk about these issues, open discussions and 594 00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:14.920 make decisions and actions between many, because it is that a single civil society 595 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:17.920 organization, neither control nor political entity, nor business leader in isolation will achieve 596 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:22.800 it. Let' s push the change and push it together. That' 597 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:29.320 s what gives us hope, because if we just look at the case behind 598 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.920 us, it' s very frustrating, it' s not very sad, 599 00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.880 but what gives us hope is to be able to dialogue with these issues, 600 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:44.679 to talk to many people throughout the country, that when we start landing these 601 00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:47.760 things, they give them added value for their life in society, for their 602 00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:51.400 personal life. And that' s where we find hope again and are filled 603 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:53.400 with encouragement to move forward. And that' s the message I think we 604 00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:59.719 need to keep. We are not condemned to corruption and if we make some 605 00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:02.320 changes, of course, some big ones, but others that go through our 606 00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:07.360 own attitude and our life in society, we can face this problem matitonces has 607 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.280 a campaign that I like very much. I have a photo out there that 608 00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:17.400 sometimes public on the networks being corrupt is not normal. Last to say goodbye 609 00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:24.599 very simply the message and let' s get out of our minds again that 610 00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:31.159 normalization of corruption, which seems to have become a little popular. Then we 611 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:38.679 make corruption or transactions or agreements that could be called corrupt, as if it 612 00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:43.719 were a way to solve our daily lives. Not that. It' s 613 00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:50.000 not normal for Roben, it' s not normal for me to have a 614 00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:52.800 behavior that affects that trust I have with others. That' s not normal. 615 00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:55.880 The normal thing is that we' re honest, the normal thing is 616 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.920 that we can trust, the normal thing is that we can jointly build our 617 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:02.760 good in society. And that message is very simple. Let' s get 618 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:06.920 him back to our head, from our day to day. Being corrupt isn 619 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:12.159 ' t normal. I have to say something else because I was thinking that 620 00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.960 one of the I think corruption is a very big, very difficult, very 621 00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:19.360 difficult cancer. We' ve heard a lot of things. There is one 622 00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:24.719 thing we lack in Colombia that is part of this whole environment and in many 623 00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:29.360 cases there is no social sanction. Some people know they' re corrupt. 624 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:32.000 Then they walked with their wealth, their cars and their things were in prison. 625 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:37.519 Everyone knows they stole and nothing happens. One of the things is social 626 00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:42.679 sanction. In spite of the fact that each of us is not normal, 627 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:49.800 each one of us can provide basic ethical norms and if each one, in 628 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:53.079 his or her own space of dimension, does it make great progress and that 629 00:50:53.159 --> 00:51:02.360 there is a social sanction, which in Colombia is very but very few the 630 00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:06.119 social ns that I agree with. But in addition to that, a complex 631 00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:12.000 issue is crossed between our country, which is fear and that is an issue 632 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:15.920 in which we also insist a great deal on transparency, for Colombia we have 633 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:23.480 to socially, of course, also legally and in other areas, but return 634 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:27.599 to the value of being able to say things. By this I mean to 635 00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.360 denounce, but, because I want to put it in simpler ways. To 636 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:35.280 say things I hope, in conditions in which people who speak will not be 637 00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:40.239 threatened, will not be affected. But we started at the beginning. Let 638 00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:45.480 ' s say social that someone who speaks and says something to protect let' 639 00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:50.639 s say a collective good is not an SAPP is a person who is helping 640 00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:55.000 us build and protect the public. I' m still for self- program, 641 00:51:55.639 --> 00:52:00.480 but let' s say protection of the informant, that that' s 642 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.639 one of the many people know and then people who say well, if I 643 00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:08.199 don' t pay, I don' t work and I know that everyone 644 00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:10.480 who' s competing with me is paid mind, then it' s silly. 645 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:15.280 If he doesn' t pay, that' s how it' s 646 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:17.639 going to be a word that' s ugly, but he deserves very fucked 647 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:22.440 up. There' s no right, but there' s a lot going 648 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:24.320 on. And people who tell you to look, I know this happened ruling. 649 00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:30.480 Look, this happened to me, but I' m not able to 650 00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:30.800 go and report it I' m afraid of it. And there are many 651 00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:35.800 people who are afraid and there are more than one he denounces. And we 652 00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:40.400 have already seen what happens to protect people who report, even within this world, 653 00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:44.679 from crime, because many times this opens up and there is one among 654 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:47.840 criminals who talks that we are seeing begin to talk, we have to protect 655 00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:52.639 them. That' s how hard it is. All this good, Andrew, 656 00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:55.960 for let us not go on. Let' s not go on because 657 00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.239 being corrupt isn' t normal. Let' s keep that fantastic phrase and 658 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:04.679 thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on that task. It' 659 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:08.440 s a tremendous task. I have the personal knowledge of what they do and 660 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:13.280 I always demand them and that' s why I wanted to have this chapter 661 00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:15.679 here with us. Thank you very much, Andres. Thank you so much, 662 00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:17.039 Sergio, and I' m glad to be here with the professor. 663 00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:23.519 Ready until the next program remember we can be seen and heard on all streaming 664 00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:30.480 platforms, activate notifications, send feedback to enrich what is coming. We' 665 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:30.480 re moving on.