WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:07.519 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Raid and from 2 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:13.720 London Lawrence Segalan. Today on Redefending Energy job, we're going to talk about 3 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:18.879 metha. Sure are my friend, absolutely looking forward to this. But first 4 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:23.920 I want from our partner. PVKS is the ultimate design software for solar pv 5 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:28.359 developers from the earlier stages of planning all the way to the procurement phase. 6 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:34.840 Pb cases software allows prototyping electrical designs, stringing, shading analysis, terrain analysis, 7 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:40.280 and automatic generation of construction documentation. PVKS is the ideal choice for solar 8 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.759 and we love solo on the show. Sure do so. We also have 9 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:52.039 a partner for this episode and we're very pleased to partner with the Energy Institute. 10 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:57.280 The Energy Institute is the Chatter professional membership buddy for people working in energy 11 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:03.000 and they are supporter of the meta guiding principle. We are very admirative of 12 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:07.719 the Energy Institute because the other people who now runs the Statistical Review of World 13 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.640 Energy, you know, the former VP one, so the great people. 14 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:12.879 So back to the show. I don't know if you remember, but two 15 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:19.439 years ago we did the episode fifty seven with Josh Tishbush of an IQ about 16 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.840 the meeting problem. That was, Yeah, that was really excellent, and 17 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:29.200 that was just before Cup twenty six where they made those global meat and plage 18 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:33.760 And I think the product is nobody really know how much meat and lead, 19 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.560 how much meat is emitted, and I think even the emitters didn't have a 20 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:40.319 clear view of what was going on. You're absolutely right, and I still 21 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:44.280 think today it still don't because well, what I talk about the conversation really 22 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:48.359 is that in certain cases, so called clean gass might not be as clean 23 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:49.480 as what we think it is, and in fact it might be better off 24 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.439 burning cold. That's a pretty big statement to make, but that's what he 25 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:56.879 said, and we actually don't know. Was someone that I could take this 26 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:59.599 from the European perspective, we're taking llen g in from the US. We 27 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:01.319 really we don't know if it's clean or not. And by the way, 28 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:06.000 at least you could say that the US in terms of that gas, there 29 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.400 are people looking at meta an emissions and making judgments in around them. If 30 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:14.639 we go to let's say, some of some of the former Russian republics, 31 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:20.039 that really is huge problems in terms of leakage. Yeah, so met The 32 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:25.240 good thing is there's been a lot of progress recently made on chasing methane. 33 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:30.680 And we brought one of our friends, Greig Rottenberg, who is the CEO 34 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:36.479 of Kros Aerospace. Chu do you want to introduce Greg. Greg's a great 35 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.639 guy, serial entrepreneur in the whole in this energy space. It's a great 36 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:44.560 pleasure to have them. Come on. Let's listen to the interview. Greg. 37 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.719 Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me again. It's 38 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:51.280 good to have you again. I think you were on about three years ago. 39 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.439 At this point in time, Man, I'm feeling very special, like 40 00:02:53.479 --> 00:03:00.120 a very special guest if I've been invited back. Yeah. Well, they 41 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.240 were talking about a completely different theme, but just as important. We're going 42 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.479 to talk about methane. We're going to talk about how to assess methane, 43 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:13.919 identify methane, and remediate all those fugitive emission. So, John, I 44 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.039 think you have a first question. Yeah, Greg, I think we all 45 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.240 know that from carbon emissions point of view, it is much better to burn 46 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:23.680 gas and coal. But there's another fact that we don't they need to take 47 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:28.639 into account, which is metane leakage and we know these metane leakage coming from 48 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:32.680 coal plants, but we also know that they're coming from gas plants, and 49 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.840 we noticed a big topic within the climate community. But maybe he just gives 50 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:38.599 a little bit of your sense of it at the end of the day, 51 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:45.439 because you're really examining gas and metane leakage and you know, every day of 52 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:50.360 your business life. Yeah, so it's fairly well known in the industry that 53 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.520 there's this indifference point of around three percent. And as you point it out, 54 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:58.280 you really have to make sure you're measuring the methane emissions of the coal 55 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:01.680 plants as well. But there's a known indifference point of around three percent, 56 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:06.840 meaning if the methane is leaking more than three percent of total production, and 57 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.919 that's across both upstream, midstream, you know, all the way all the 58 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.639 way to market. If you're leaking more than three percent, you really we're 59 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:18.639 better off with coal. And unfortunately today, most of the data we have, 60 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.079 and this is an understudied industry, most of the data we have says 61 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:28.600 that we're well above that three percent number. The most studied basin in the 62 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:32.639 world is the Permian Basin in the US, and there the estimates are at 63 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:38.600 about nine percent methane leakage, which is obviously quite high. Now that is 64 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:43.160 really the bad news of this story. I don't want it to get lost 65 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.680 that it's quite easy for firms to move well below three percent, and the 66 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:53.439 most responsible operators are working really hard and they're most of them are well below 67 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:59.439 three percent wo wo wo wo nine. So when you put that number forward, 68 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:04.000 is is it a kind of global basing analysis or do you aggregate no 69 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:09.639 wells after wells? How would you come to that number? The data in 70 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:15.759 this area is quite limited. We don't have enough data globally to make really 71 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:21.399 strong statements, and it's an area where the strong statements that were made prior 72 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:27.079 to having data, many of them have been proven to be false. So 73 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:32.480 somebody who operates within this methane world adopts a degree of caution and starts asking, 74 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:39.399 with every data fact that's provided, has that been well studied and researched, 75 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:43.040 Do we have scientific literature on that? Or is that someone's opinion? 76 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.800 In this space, we get real good at asking that question because the data 77 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:53.519 needs to be reliable or you come to conclusions that are not accurate. We 78 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:58.680 saw a lot of press the past two years about the company which unfortunately as 79 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.160 almost the same name as yours, which is Chiros and you are Chiros. 80 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:06.720 So one is one R and Y and the other one is you I and 81 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:14.439 one R. And they are mostly doing satellite observation or satellite and you know, 82 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:19.839 we talk about Turkmenistan and other stories. As you you use planes and 83 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:28.720 drones, So how would you characterize the different sensing technology the respective maturity. 84 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:35.360 So there are really four different key ways that we measure methane Satellite, aerial, 85 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:42.199 drone and stationary which is often called continuous or ground amount. Those are 86 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:46.519 the four main methods here. Why don't I cut to the chase, which 87 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:53.199 is every one of these modalities or ways of measuring methane and mitigating methane will 88 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:59.000 ultimately be used by our world. They're all four fairly important, but they 89 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:03.560 each have their place, and as the technology evolves, there's some debate as 90 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:09.279 to whether their places may change. So, for instance, today's satellites are 91 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:14.600 very good at measuring methane in places like Turkmenistan. When you want to measure 92 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:19.480 the total methane in a region, satellites are quite good at doing that. 93 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:28.199 Unfortunately, the resolution today is not sufficient that you can do two important things. 94 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.439 You typically cannot quantify the emission. So while they see a large emission 95 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:38.360 and they know it's large, it's difficult for them to estimate exactly how large 96 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:42.879 that emission is. The second problem they have is that while they'll see that 97 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:47.519 emission, they can't do what's called attribution. They don't know who caused that 98 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:53.639 leak unless there's only one producer in the area. So that's the real challenge 99 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.879 with satellite. They can only see about half of the emission that exists, 100 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:03.480 so the other fifty percent is too small for the satellite to identify that emission 101 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:07.879 or the source. So that's why satellites are very good for understanding a region, 102 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.800 usually less helpful for understanding the performance of a specific operator. It's usually 103 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.319 the other three technology that will be used on the other operators. Let me 104 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:24.879 start with the drones. The drones had a lot of optimism when they first 105 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:30.879 came out. We now understand that the economics of using the drone for onshore 106 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:37.120 is just not compelling. That said, for offshort drone appears to be the 107 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:41.519 best solution to use offshore. There are problems with the other two methods in 108 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.759 trying to use them off shore. Great, can I cut across you, 109 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.840 because that seems to be illogical to me, because I would have taught a 110 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.279 drone offshore is actually much harder to control ACCESTERA accestera on a plane would be 111 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.720 easier. So explain that, because you could just explain that to me a 112 00:08:54.759 --> 00:09:00.480 little bit. Yeah, the drones will use a technology called sniffing, which 113 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:05.080 is different than imaging technology. And because they sniff you can effectively put the 114 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:11.080 drone upwind of the equipment and do a measurement, and then do another measurement 115 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.720 downwind of the equipment, and you now know what the equipment is leaking. 116 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.480 Okay, okay, makes sense. The other technology, unfortunately, can't do 117 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.960 that, ground mount or stationary. I think there's a lot of long term 118 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:30.840 optimism around continuous that likely will land in a world where twenty percent of the 119 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.879 wells, the highest producing wells in the world, will ultimately be measured with 120 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.480 continuous monitoring. Now, you guys understand how oil and gas production works. 121 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.919 You thrill wells, you have very good production, and then it tails off. 122 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:48.440 There's a belief probably that the continuous will not be economic enough to stay 123 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.840 on all those wells, you'll actually move them as the top twenty percent of 124 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:58.159 the wells change, You'll move them within your portfolio or perhaps ultimately within firms. 125 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:03.639 Today, continuous does struggle to quantify. They see lots of emissions. 126 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:09.120 In fact, they see very small emissions. They struggle with telling you how 127 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:13.759 big the emission is. They're also plagued with very high false positives. And 128 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.080 one of the challenges in this industry is you've got these repair crews and you're 129 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.399 sending them out. You'd like to use them efficiently. You want to avoid 130 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.240 sending them to places where there is no leak at all, and you'd really 131 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.840 like to avoid sending them to places where there's a very small leak when in 132 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:33.320 fact you could have found a much larger emission for them to have fixed. 133 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.639 Aerial really is where all the action is today in order to dramatically reduce your 134 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:48.919 emissions. And that's because aerial is quite good at finding the more sizeable leaks, 135 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.559 the more material leaks. Aerial can see at least ninety percent of the 136 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.399 emissions, and that's really where the real opportunity lives today. Correct, Can 137 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:01.000 I ask you just to get back to the whole emissions area. We've had 138 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:05.080 some of the European gas operators who really have been talking about selling clean gas, 139 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.679 and there's been a lot of talk that, for example, the Russian 140 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.399 gas was never clean, and there was always a story along the lines that 141 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:15.960 there was so much leak issues there. Anyway, exactly what you said, 142 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.039 it was better off using coal. But when I hear just what you've said 143 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:20.720 here, I'm thinking, as European, so why are we important all this 144 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.320 energy? Now? I know we need to geo politically do it, but 145 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.200 from a carbon emission point of view, it's a complete disaster. So you 146 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.200 said something which I thought was quite interested, is an easy fix. There's 147 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.960 an easy fix on this. Tell me how do you fix this and why 148 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.320 is it not being done up to now? You can get way less than 149 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:43.159 three percent emissions by just serving your assets often, by looking for the larger 150 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:48.080 leaks and serving them often. And this is very important for everyone to understand 151 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.480 the cost to fix a small leak, a medium leak, in a large 152 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.279 weak or nearly the same that rarely changes. What really changes is how much 153 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:03.080 gas you recover from fixing the leak, and where that quickly leads you to 154 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.879 is an understanding is that every company in the world has a break even point, 155 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:13.000 a size of leak above which they make money and finding leaks below which 156 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.679 they're not going to make money fixing those leaks. And the really good news 157 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.840 of this story is that you can get way less than three percent by fixing 158 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.240 only the highly profitable leaks. So, Carols, your job is to deliver 159 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:30.840 data to the oil company. So I mean you own your planes or to 160 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.000 lease your plane? What type of sensor do you use on your planes today? 161 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.919 We lease the planes. And the key reason why we lease the planes 162 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:46.600 is because as soon as the FAA makes a key change in their rules that 163 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:52.720 allows you to operate drones or unmanned aerial vehicles outside line of sight, this 164 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.519 industry becomes extremely compelling for using those UAVs and we're waiting for that moment. 165 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:03.159 Once you're allowed to operate outside line of sight, we will move to a 166 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:09.120 fleet that is predominantly automated. And that's why we don't own the planes today. 167 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.879 We do have a proprietary instrument. We had to build a proprietary instrument 168 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.639 that aren't really off the shelf instruments that do this. It was quite hard 169 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:22.399 to do, and we built an instrument whose key advantages we can fly it 170 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.120 very high and much higher than the other detection methods to get a reading of 171 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.639 fairly small emissions. We had to build that proprietary sensor in order to operate 172 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.679 at that high altitude and see ninety percent of the emissions that are occurring. 173 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.440 Can I ask you a little bit about transparency, because again, I just 174 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.919 want to go back to your working in the biggest gas field really in the 175 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:50.840 Western world and the Permium, and I would also say that's the most probably 176 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.320 observed gas field in the world. You've got investors looking, you've got everybody 177 00:13:54.399 --> 00:14:00.639 looking at this, and still we don't have this transparency there. So explain 178 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.240 why that is and why you think that's got to change going forward. Unfortunately, 179 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:11.120 I think our own Environmental Protection Administration, the EPA, has a lot 180 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:16.399 to do with how we wound up in this space. I've shown you both 181 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.720 a chart previously that showed the thirty three largest firms in the Permian and what 182 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.720 they reported to the EPA as their emissions, and then I've superimposed on top 183 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:31.440 of that a chart showing their actual emissions. And what you can see is 184 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:37.200 that the typical firm is emitting at least six times what they've told the EPA. 185 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:41.679 They're admitting, some ten times, some twenty times. Ironically, there 186 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.360 are even a few firms who have reported more than they're actually admitting, and 187 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.000 the reason for that is that they're not given a lot of degrees of freedom. 188 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:54.399 And how they report they fill out a spreadsheet. It's an emissions factor 189 00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:01.679 spreadsheet where they input their assets and you press a button outcomes. The result 190 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.399 here is what your theoretical calculated emissions should have been. The problem is that 191 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:11.919 calculation is not accurate and doesn't do a good job of accounting, especially for 192 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:18.559 human air the kinds of human errors that cause these very large emissions. One 193 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:24.639 more point I thought, I think we should make sure everyone understands somewhere between 194 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:30.279 sixty and eighty percent of the total emissions for any firm will come from one 195 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.720 percent of their sites. If you stop and think about that for a moment, 196 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.399 you start to understand why this problem is tricky. It's a long tail 197 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.840 problem. It's not a bell curve. When you look at your sites, 198 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:48.320 one percent of your sites are causing most of your problems, and the trick 199 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:54.279 is surveying those sites very often finding those large leaks and fixing them quickly because 200 00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.559 the larger those leaks go on obviously the higher your methods. When, in 201 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:06.039 your opinion, was the technical chipping point where you said, I have the 202 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:10.919 technology now to deliver your data which is much mar curate that your ext sheets 203 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.639 are. You know, whatever method you are using, Well, that's interesting 204 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:18.200 because I think as soon as aerial detection came out, even if you go 205 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:23.360 back at least five years ago with cairos, we were giving you actionable data 206 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:30.000 that was profitable and highly valuable to the amount of methane you are leaking. 207 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:37.120 There was considerable resistance at the time in the industry because most firms even today 208 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:41.240 don't believe they're leaking very much. Again, a lot of this gets tied 209 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.759 back to those EPA numbers, which are very misleading, and you have many 210 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:52.159 firms believing their emissions are much lower than they actually are. There is an 211 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.080 irony that in most of those firms there are at least several people who know 212 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:03.320 those numbers they're reporting to EPA are quite different than the actual measure numbers. 213 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.920 Greg, does it mean that we have to wait for the EPA and other 214 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.559 similar organizations across the world to actually bring in regulations in this or is there 215 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:18.400 a coalition type approach that could be used. So the answer is both. 216 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:26.039 The current rules state that there are findes methane fee finds based in the Inflation 217 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.160 Reduction Act. Those going to effect in twenty twenty four from Unfortunately, the 218 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:37.319 twenty twenty four numbers will be calculated based on the fictitious data that EPA uses 219 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:42.160 today. But in twenty twenty five we are moving to measured emissions. That's 220 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:49.599 written into the Inflation Reduction Act that the fines on your methane emissions will be 221 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:56.359 based on actual observed emissions as long as the EPA does a reasonably decent job 222 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:02.200 in calculating what those missions are. As long as they come up with any 223 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.440 reasonable standard for how a firm measures their emissions, the world, especially in 224 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.599 the US, will change quite a bit in twenty twenty five. There is 225 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:15.759 though, also a coalition that is building called Base and Why. You can 226 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.680 read about it it basin why dot org. That is a list of leading 227 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:25.599 industry methane firms with some very impressive firms behind this that are coming together to 228 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:30.559 benchmark the entire industry and that will be an important variable, being able to 229 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:36.480 see exactly what the emissions are of the various firms in the world. And 230 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:41.559 the amazing thing is that fixing those leaks is not a cost. They make 231 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.559 money, so they should fix it for God's sake. Because you know when 232 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.839 you hear some lobbies as, oh my god, it cost us so much 233 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.680 to fix the leak. No, no, no, no, guy, 234 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:56.440 you need to change your lobbying book. It's profitable to fix those leaks. 235 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:02.599 Yes, that is painful to watch that. We really could fix these leaks 236 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:07.880 quite profitably. The one asterisk I will add here it is profitable. We 237 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.359 have two key problems. The first is whether the firms believe they're leaking as 238 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:18.680 much as they are. The second is materiality. Yes, it's profitable. 239 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:23.880 The ROI on these projects is extremely attractive. Our problem is that for these 240 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:30.119 large oil and gas companies, the numbers often are not very material. When 241 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.920 you can save twenty million or forty million dollars to a very large oil and 242 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:38.440 gas firm, that's just not a lot of money given the work they need 243 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.920 to do, the way they need to organize their teams to go after this 244 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:48.039 problem. For many oil and gas companies today, it isn't a priority. 245 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.839 Note that there are plenty of firms, plenty of industry leaders where it is 246 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.960 a priority, and they're doing a very good job. Great. I would 247 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.000 assume I'm just going to look at this from the buyer perspective. I think 248 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.640 the buyers now correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to have to take 249 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:07.920 much more responsibility for how they're sourcing gas going forward, because at the end 250 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.440 of the day, if you're going to sell clean gas, you'd mean to 251 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:12.559 make sure bloody is clean gas. And if I'm a customer, an end 252 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:18.759 customer, like I'm an automobile manufactured as buying gas in and you realize that 253 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.359 it's actually dirty gas, it's going to impact the fines that I have. 254 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.680 So I would assume that's also going to be a big push for change as 255 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.720 well. Gerard, I haven't yet been able to connect the dots and make 256 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:33.440 a compelling case to the buyers that they are going to be fined. I 257 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.920 hope that world ultimately exists that you described. I think all you're talking about 258 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:44.160 is an efficient world where we efficiently find the biggest sources of leaks and reduce 259 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.920 them. I'm confident that world is going to occur. I think the counting 260 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.000 on the buyers, though, is difficult. The most important thing we need 261 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:59.319 is some kind of a premium or discount associated with the methane that's inherent in 262 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.640 the gas. That is what the world is looking for. Their multiple firms 263 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.359 trying to create that world. But it's not an easy solution to bring about. 264 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.119 Lauren, Can I ask you, I mean, listen your next carbage? 265 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:12.039 I am, I mean, what do you think of it? What 266 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:17.920 do you think of this? Well, there were some carbon credits attached to 267 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.200 methane news and I remember I made a decent amount of money out of a 268 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:29.319 Chinese whole mine capturing the methane which was otherwise vented and internationally to capture it, 269 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:34.279 but to use it to power installation. I'm not sure it was very 270 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.799 well money thought, but there was this feeling that if you could make money 271 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:41.799 out of it, a lot of the meat and capture would be done. 272 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:47.200 And I think it's a good segue because we talk about the US a lot, 273 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:51.279 and look, it's messy as usual, but it's kind of under control 274 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.440 because people of the parhamto But now if we look a bit globally, and 275 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.079 you talk about Russia, but you know, we can talk about Turkmenistan or 276 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.200 other places. Once you know why, there's a satellite above who says, 277 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.119 oh, it's not very good, and the ambassador of Turkmenistan and all of 278 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.680 a sudden, as this moment of glory then goes back into oblivion. Great, 279 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:18.799 Please explain how you're going out internationally and how the non US sectors can 280 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:22.720 benefit from the innovation you've done in the US. Well, we do work 281 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.680 with many of the largest global oil companies and we follow them so where they 282 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.400 have needs, we will follow them all across the world, So we work 283 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.440 all throughout the US. We work a lot in Colombia and Argentina and parts 284 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:41.000 of South America. Today we are in multiple discussions in territories in the Middle 285 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.119 East and Australia that are very interesting. So I think this industry is about 286 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:51.960 to go global. This idea of not just serving your emissions and fixing your 287 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.839 biggest leagues, but also publishing what your actual results are. There's more and 288 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:03.799 more hunger from the esters, the regulators and the other stakeholders for firms to 289 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:08.440 come clean with a disclosure of how much they're actually emitting. In fact, 290 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:12.680 if you went to SIRA Week, which is by far the biggest industry gathering 291 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.400 in the oil and gas industry, if you went to SIRA Week this year, 292 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:21.480 what you would have heard is CEO after CEO of the top ten oil 293 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:25.960 and gas companies standing up and saying, not only are they going to disclose 294 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.559 their emissions, they're going to have them third party validated. That is the 295 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:36.799 direction the world's going. Greg There's a lot of film that claim that they 296 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.920 have the biggest impact on climate to year, but I think we found the 297 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.279 winner, and the winner is Kalo sale Space. Because your company is the 298 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.799 one was abated the most common last year. Can you please explain them. 299 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:56.000 Yeah, our total abatement last year was sixty six million tons of CO two 300 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:02.319 equivalent. We do believe that makes us the highest carbon impact firm in the 301 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:06.599 world. It's in fact, five times the impact Tesla had last year on 302 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.920 carbon. It's two point six times the impact of every EV on the road, 303 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:15.519 and we're really flying very much below the radar, so to speak. 304 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:22.640 It's worth noting here that we are finding the emissions. It's our partnership with 305 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.480 the oil and gas companies. And then fixing those profitable emissions. That's really 306 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:32.519 what creates the impact. So this really is an award we share with our 307 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:37.279 customers in terms of the impact that we've had. Those numbers were validated by 308 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.640 Ernst and Young, by the way, because one of our largest investors is 309 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.079 OGCI, which is thirteen of the largest oil and gas companies in the world. 310 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:49.240 Greg, that's pretty amazing. Can I maybe just let's move to the 311 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.559 future. I'd love to hear how you see the whole future of the maintain 312 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.319 emission world, and also even how you see the future of your own business. 313 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:03.480 It's a fascinating es qu I think this is such a dynamic world right 314 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.559 now. Assuming the EPA does a good job with defining how companies will measure 315 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:15.880 their emissions, twenty twenty five becomes a landmark year in methane emissions because so 316 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:22.519 many US firms will be facing fines that are much bigger than they anticipated, 317 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.039 and they will become much more aggressive at mitigating methane. And the really good 318 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:33.279 news here is because it's profitable for them to mitigate methane, we can have 319 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.680 massive impact if EPA just does a good job in twenty twenty five. In 320 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:42.799 defining what actual emissions are, and it looks like they probably will sometime in 321 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:49.640 between twenty six and twenty eight the EPA's emission requirements go into effect. Those 322 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:56.119 will also do a very good job managing upstream emissions. So when you look 323 00:25:56.119 --> 00:26:00.599 at the regulations that are coming, when you look at what the stakeholders in 324 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.599 oil and gas are doing, and the pressure that they're putting on oil and 325 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:11.319 gas companies to release publicly their true numbers through groups like basin why dot org. 326 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.920 You put all that together, this methane crisis, and we are in 327 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:22.599 a crisis is likely about to be resolved if we stay on track. The 328 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:26.720 issue around methane, which is much bigger than most people realize, will come 329 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.680 down to a very manageable level by the end of this decade. I like 330 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:34.000 it, Greg, I like it. That's good. It's good that technology 331 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:41.279 provide climate solution more than big speeches that do UN which of course very necessary, 332 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.880 and we salute the UN here and all the diplomat but you know, 333 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:51.319 I prefer practical exactly. Greg. It was a pleasure to have you back 334 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:56.960 on the show and see that you continue working very hard to decabanize the planet. 335 00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.839 Always a pleasure speaking to you guys. I look for the future conversations 336 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.160 and I'll remain a loyal listener. Thank you very much, my friend. 337 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:10.240 Thanks all, Jaab. This interview gives me a lot of hope because technology 338 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:15.759 is in the motion and it is very clear that if operators want it, 339 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:21.480 they can really identify and fix all the meta leaks. So it's not that 340 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:26.079 the technology is not there. I mean other people are complacent or use less, 341 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.799 but we can defeat methane. Yeah. Yeah, And by the way, 342 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:33.960 it makes economic sense straight away because while leak, when you can sell 343 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.599 it to somebody, right, So I take my hat after this because we 344 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:42.359 do need people though that actually really go and look at what's going on and 345 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:47.759 benchmark and all that type of stuff because I want as a user gas, 346 00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:51.240 I want to know that it's clean, because what's the point otherwise they are 347 00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:56.519 doing great stuff in the US. But Lord Lord Law Turkmenistan, Iraq, 348 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:02.319 Russia, Russia and others, that's a disgrace. They're going to do that 349 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:06.680 Cup twenty eight. They should not do like climate diplomacy. They should tell 350 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.759 those culprits do something about it. It is wrong. But what I will 351 00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:15.000 say is what we need to do is work with these countries, and that 352 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:19.680 means also investing in these countries and making sure that they actually have the technologies 353 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:25.519 in place to be able to use that gas. That's also a factor. 354 00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:27.400 And a lot of the countries are just named. What you've got is old 355 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:33.400 infrastructure in place and they need new CAPEX problem. Yeah, of course, 356 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:44.400 of course you just get top Yeah, invest in Venezuela, invested Turk Minister, 357 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.440 invest in Libya, investing in your Iran, Iran, Irana. What 358 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:51.960 you know how to say, really, that's your solution. How else you 359 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.079 gonna do it? How was he going to do it? That's the issue 360 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:56.160 in all these countries. You can go and what they're going to do, 361 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:59.079 smack them on the head and say don't do it again. If they're gonna 362 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:00.680 do it again, you know, we just said it. It's not in 363 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.920 anyone's economic interest to actually go and allow gas to lead because you can sell 364 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.599 it. But if you don't have the right technology in place, is fine. 365 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.559 So it's all that's great saying hey guys, stop doing that, but 366 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:15.319 let's help them stop doing it. And by the way, it's not just 367 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.279 about meeting. I could go beyond that and say it here. If we 368 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.079 want to go and decarbonize our world, we have to make sure that the 369 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:27.960 large part of the developing world actually goes and invests in the right energy infrastructure 370 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:33.400 to make sure that we have a clean world going forward. Okay, fine, 371 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.720 but half of those countries are under sanctions. I don't see a short 372 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:42.039 term solution. And maybe I'm too cynical and maybe your two kumbaya, but 373 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:47.079 at least in the US they found some solutions. No, that's true, 374 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.240 and listen, I can understand. You can say. The other thing that 375 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.599 you can do is a character stick approach. And the stick approach is to 376 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.559 say, guys, we're not going to take your gas because the emissions of 377 00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.000 it are too high. That's the first thing. But there needs to be 378 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.920 character as well. And the character is, if you, guys, improve 379 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.839 the quality of the gas that you're producing and exporting, you'll get X, 380 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:10.839 Y and Z out from us. So that has to be in karrot and 381 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:15.039 stick, not just stick. Just won't work. Yeah, okay, job, 382 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:19.880 let's agree to disagree on this one. We want to thank Greg for 383 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:25.880 coming onto the show. We're very pleased with our partnership with the Energy Institute 384 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.519 that we put the links in the show notes, and also our sponsor for 385 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:37.160 the episode, PVCSE Superior Software for so now looking forward to our next podcast, 386 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:41.039 My Friend in two weeks time. Cheers, take care, Thank you 387 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:45.359 for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on 388 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:51.319 Apple Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice