You're right. The information economy as a rod. The world is teeming with
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Learn more and inside analysis dot com, Analysis dot com and now here's
your host, Eric Kavanaugh. Keep each other well. Chosen to economy and
very veteran with us today, social media pioneer, someone who's been doing cool
stuff on the interwebs for a long time now, back since nineteen hundred and
eighty one, something like that way of west pussmall with us. We're going
to talk about identity resolution. We're going to talk about deep fakes. We're
going to talk about how to ensure that someone really real And of course that's
a very strange question these days. But now we have generative AI being quite
popular. We can thank chat, GPT and open ai for really making it
the top story of the last year or surprise technology specifically in artificial intelligence,
but of course it's not the only kind of asind of artificial intelligence, they're
used for maybe different problem, because authenticity really matters. Who are you?
How do we know you are? Who you say you are. That's really
important when conducting business, for sure, it's very important when collecting money,
when delivering services, and the interwebs these days are pretty robust and pretty replete
with transactions and all kinds of interesting things happening. So with that, West,
let me introduce you to our audience. And like I said, you've
been doing cool things for over forty years. You launched the world's first online
encyclopedia, you said, a nine eighty one, and that moved in the
direction of early social media in nineteen eighty two. That's a long time ago
to be doing that kind of stuff. And these days, of course you're
working on identity resolution and authenticity. So it tell us a bit about yourself
and your work and what this PKAI is all about. Well, it's a
pleasure to be here, Eric, thank you for inviting me. Yeah,
as as we were discussing earlier, we have a PKI. The Authenticity Institute
provides a PKI platform. Now PKI is known to your listeners as a public
key infrastructure. We have a version of PKI that's a subset of that really,
so we call it puzzle Kit Infrastructure. We feel that's a better more
descriptive version of what PKI stands for. And if you'd like, I can
run through the basics of HOWARD works. Yeah, yeah, And this is
all about authenticity. It's all about authentication really, So tell us how it
works and what it does, and how it's different maybe from some other similar
solutions. Well, it's all about digital certificates. Now in we use PKI,
a stripped down version of PKI all the time. Whenever you go to
a website that starts with HGTPS, whenever you use signed code, which is
most of the code we use these days, it's digitally signed. But these
certificates can identify just about anything a server, a code. Howard p KI
starts with the premise that the only only fundamentally useful certificate, or the important
certificate, is the personal identity certificate. Everything is tied to a human being.
If you need a server certificate, a blood site certificate, well it
should be digitally signed, not only by the certification authority that is like city
Hall from you know, a vital records department. It should be digitally signed
by an identifiable human being that takes personal responds, somebody there who takes responsibility
for that and isn't that the way the physical world works. You and I
are both sitting in buildings, and I know, without looking into it at
all, I know that the building you're in like the building I'm in,
and the like the building that every one of our listeners who's not outdoors is
in. Every one of our buildings has an occupancy permit, and that occupancy
permit is signed by an untractor and a building inspector and often a structural engineer
as well. That means you and I don't have to worry about the building
falling down on our heads when we walk into it. We just we just
go around with the confidence. You know, most people don't even know that
there's this methodology that is protecting them everywhere on Earth, but one particular country
that is a Newish country where they haven't gotten around to building codes and occupancy
permits yet. And that's a country where, notably, a couple of factories
have fallen down and killed people. So we have this methodology from the physical
world, we're simply importing it to the digital world. So what we're doing
doing where we view the web as a wonderful collection of outdoor spaces, but
when we use these outdoor spaces. For instance, when we do our banking
on an outdoor billboard, I have to ask whose idea was that. Why
don't we have buildings. Where are the bounded indoor spaces? Where are the
What is a building but a set of accountability spaces? Right? You tend
to know who's in a room with you. That's the whole purpose of a
building, besides, you know, keeping the rain off your head and providing
a nice climate. It's about accountability. Rooms are designated for certain purposes.
People can't just walk into your home or if to get into your office,
they have to go to a lobby receptionists that they're a visitor. If not,
they have it's all about accountability. Ability. Well, you can't really
have a lot of accountability outdoors. That's the nature of outdoors. It's a
wonderful place. But yeah, there's a reason why we don't have our meetings
by the side of the information by the side of the highway. We do
have our meetings by the side of the information highway and there and why's the
problem? Well, and so you've mentioned a couple of things that are worthy
of digging into. Who's on your network? How do you know who's on
your network. I mean, you go to any coffee shop these days in
any major city and you look at the different networks that are available, and
they are like twenty to fifty of them of people all around. Now they're
almost all security these days. I'm old enough to remember when many of them
weren't even secure. There's no pass where there's open, secure spacis you know
who's out there. And you mentioned also like mail certificates, email certificates,
who's who, who's allowed to email me? You think about the complexity of
the landscape these days, the number of companies who are sending emails, the
number of people who have email. I mean, Slack arguably came out of
the blue because of the trouble of dealing with email and dealing with tons and
tons of emails and wanting threads and wanting to be able to quickly search through
all of that, and at the at the foundation of all of these transactions,
you want some kind of certificate. A lot of people understand an SSL
to get in your website, so it's secure, but of course nothing is
completely secure. So maybe walk us through your vision for this company and why
you felt there was a need for a new PKI and tell us the difference
between a standard PKI and this puzzle that you talk about, well, they
are They all involved puzzles. There's no technical difference between our PKI and no
technical difference between our PKI and any site certificate provider. The differences in how
identity is established. Son mentioned email s MIME is a technology that's been around
for decades. Back up. The solution to all of these things is as
old as you mentioned SSL. It's as old as SSL, it goes back
to the seventies. The technical solution, it's just well proven, it's out
there. But putting here's the here's the metaphor I use all the time.
Bank vault is a secure space, right, but a collection of bank vault
construction materials is not a bank vault. You know. You those bank vault
construction materials need to be put together in a way that an expert knows,
you know, results in security. And it's actually a rather complex thing because
bank customers enter bank vaults, you know, to get it at their safe
deposit boxes. So number one, there needs to be a set of construction
methodology, building codes, if you will, and that once once it's been
built that responsible individuals says yeah, I'm I'm the signer for DeBold or whoever
built it, and says, I actually that this is reliable. That bank
fault is viable. So it's not the bank fault construction materials at all.
It's nuturing materials. The people who billows and thought it thread seventies, you
know, they did their job, but holy smokes, you can't just throw
a pile of construction materials out on the world. Since when SSL was new,
the inventor said, well, we need something called a certification authority.
Somebody needs to seeing these certification, these certifications on these websites. What is
a certification authority? And basically they the answer they came up with, well,
anybody who knows how to run this software on a server can call themselves
a certification authority, you know. And so that resulted in all sorts of
problems and people of technology that that people compulsively seem to think a problem results
from the use of a technology. It must be the technology that it's the
fault, rather than the way it's been deployed. You can't just deploy you
know, certification authorities software and say anybody is an authority. And of course
the more people depend on it for real money, you know that, the
more incentive there is to corrupt it. Now, I have a little sad
We worked in a commercial forty They were going to help us build you know,
an authority. You know, we were a little late getting our act
together and the company ended up getting sold. And this company was known and
the name of the company was start Com. It was known for its integrity.
If you wanted to certificate behind your website represented a company real integrity,
you got start com. Well, start Colm was sold to a company that
turned out to going to issue you know, corrupt certificates, back date certificates,
and you know, basically leave out the costly integrity part. You know
me honestly, one of my questions to you is that you know you you
lean on SSL. How can you be sure that SSL is doing what it's
supposed to be doing. I mean you have to be a pretty technical person
to get into the weeds and really look at log files and understand if it
falls apart their toast. But on vetting these various solutions for examples you've got
and sell to someone your new platform, you know, what are some of
the hardest questions they ask you, and how you answer those questions. The
answer is so probably. People are aware, generally aware that architects are tend
to be pretty well paid. What they're less familiar with is why they're so
well paid. And it's not because they get a high hourly rate. It's
because they accept liability. You know that if if you if an office,
if it's discovered at an office building has secret passageways that don't show up in
the drawings that the occupancy permit was issued on, you know that architect is
at least going to lose their livelihood if not go to jail. If a
building. Uh, there was a case, very prominent case a few years
ago of a skyscraper that was whose occupancy permit was signed off on by a
structural engineering firm, very respected structural engineering firm. They almost they never get
that wrong, except this one time they did. And now, I mean,
look at look at the solar winds hack. I think that's one of
the most devastating that I've come across. Exactly, these very clever masters point
to the point to a digital signature of a huge being in any of the
software code that went into not just Solar Winds gets unjustly tagged with the faultfare,
but it's the components of a whole supply chain of software. Shouldn't every
piece of code in that be digitally signed by someone who takes legal responsibility for
it? And I hasten to add this is important about the economics of this.
Why would anybody voluntarily put their good name on such a thing. Well,
the answer is because they get paid very well. It should be a
seven figure income associated with code signing, you know, in other words,
I take responsibility, I take personal legal responsibility for this code doing what it's
supposed to do and not having backdoors in it, because that's what happened with
Solar when somebody, you know, when a department of a company, and
Microsoft has suffered this a few times now. They have code signing certificates out
there that have been intercepted. Well, what do you expect is going to
happen when you know the signing of code happens as follows. You know,
well, let's pick that up out the break folks, we're talking all about
cybersecurity, and certificates will be right back. They'll touch that value or the
things inside analysis. What if you could own a pcording stopped, the recording
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four one three. That's eight hundred two eight nine zero four thirteen. Welcome
back to Inside Analysis. Here's your host, Eric Kavanaugh. Take this team
show all right, ticket for the future. Indeed, folks, your host
here, Eric Kavanaugh with Wes Kussmaul talking all about identity resolution and certificates and
West has a really good point about how to solve for this whole conundrum of
deep fakes, which is a real challenge. I mean, I have to
tell you think about how you log into your phone. You either use a
password or you use biometric. Increasingly we're going to see I think a combination
of those things I keep waiting for, and maybe this is happening already companies
like Apple and Samsung to appreciate location geospatial data and really take that in as
a first class citizen to understand, yes, I'm here on my phone,
I'm still at the same location that I've been or I've been with my phones
between now when I travel to the store and back. So it sure looks
like it's me to take that into account. Please that I don't have to
always be entering my pass code, which really gets annoying. But you talked
about certificates that are measurable, So explain what you mean by that. How
do you measure it? Who measures it? What are the factors taken into
account as you measure the reliability of what are these certificates? So not that
long ago, I guess eight years ago or so. NISSED the US government
formerly the National Bureau of Standards National Institute of Standards of Technology came up with
something that they named NISSED eight hundred sixty three, and that is an objective
way to measure the reliability of a claim of identity, and it's very the
The way they gathered the information is fairly complete. The unfortunately you end up
with a score of one, two or three. So one means self asserted
identity, means pretty much useless, Two is a wide range of values.
Are not values not not even just a represents a wide range of confidence,
and three means pretty good. If you've got an eight sixty three measure of
three, you're pretty reliable. The city of Osmio that I mentioned earlier,
which was the municipal charter, took was first written in March seventh, two
thousand and five at the ITU headquarters. I who was a unit of the
United Nations, has come up with something called OSMO IDQA Identity Quality Assurance and
it measures in eight metrics each on a scale of zero to nine, so
you have an aggregate score of zero to seventy two. So that is bound
to your identity certificate on a permanent basis. Yes, it can be modified
up or down, but it's still has to be digitally signed by the certification
authority. And it starts with for instance, you know, you start with
with a total of eight on a scale of zero to seventy two just by
doing the old email and SMS verification. And then you can do a liveness
check and you know JUMEO type of things for which will get you up to
a twelve. But above that you have to be interviewed by an attestation officer
which is a Virginia Remote online notary and she or he is going to ask
you to log into a bank account, show that there's a bank account in
your name. Naturally, they're not going to watch track your your password or
anything. It's a separate a separate session. But know that there's ease.
That's the sort of thing that's checked that you can also, by the way,
or a face face to face interview. We have a face to face
physical face to face interview with an attestation officer. And you know, I
can run through the the eight different metrics, but basically each one of them
is rated on a scale of zero to nine. And again that's bound to
your identities. You assert your identity with an OSMIO identity certificate, which,
by the way, that certificate can go behind a a uh PHIDO credential or
an open ID credential or pass key credential. There's simply you know, there's
something in a certificate called distinguished name, and in that you can put your
you know, your PHIDO ID, and now your certificate stands behind you know
your employee ID. For instance, your employee ID, if it uses any
of any common protocols, can be backed by an identity certificate that informs the
relying party the degree to which they can rely on that claim of identity.
And so for some for some things a real lightweight claim can So for instance,
if you're running a blog and you want to permit comments on your blog,
and you're gonna have trolls. If you don't, it's not as interesting
this way, digitally signed by anybody with an osmio idea to say, all
right, it's just an eight. But trolls aren't going to bother and you
know, going through that rigamarole and becoming accountable by the way, they're going
to move on and trash somebody else's blog go up to you know, you
know, a senior state department official is going to need a very high you
know, a forty five or fifty on a scale of zero seventy two.
Well, it's funny you mentioned blog comments because I have a couple by loud
comments for not just decided to shut them down because there are just so many
spam comments. I mean, and this is one of the real challenges of
doing business in the modern world here is that you have so many bad actors,
and you have accomplished bad actors, slack bad actors, and just everywhere
in between of people just peppering websites with nonsense trying to hack into your machines.
This is going to fix it, This will fix it. And when
you say this will fix it, you're just talking about having a digital signature
that is backed by both parties. Who you know, who is asking for
the certificate and who is granting the certificate. In this case, that could
be you and your company granting the certificate. Get to and where do you
like, where do you maintain those? Is that like an a key value
store or something, or how does that work? So remember that we were
talking about indoors versus outdoors before, right, The whole idea is that the
web is you know, it used to be characterized an information highway and the
name really fits. What is a highway but an outdoor public transport system?
Right? What are we How do we typically use highways in the physical world.
Typically we use them to go from building to building, from indoor space
to indoor space, to account from accountability space. We're not going to make
the web an accountability space. That's that's not going to happen. Outdoors is
always going to be outdoor accountability spaces. We have fenterverse authentiverse gotten you kid,
I mean ladies and Authenterverse that doesn't have an occupancy permit, and the
occupancy permit nobody has to have identity certificate. And you, as the builder
or owner inside of authentiverse get to decide the minimum identity quality. But for
let's say, a boardroom inside the facility will have a higher score required than
you know, the lobby. So it's it's the whole notion. You know
that the assumption has been and this was Tyrner's Lee's vision is freedom and openness,
which is wonderful, and that's the way outdoors should be. That is
not the way indoor spaces should be. There's outdoors, there's indoors, and
then of course there's the in between space, you know, the part of
the restaurant, the you know, which is called a public accommodation, which
does in authentiverse. You're you're you are still are required to have a certificate,
but but you know, no no I d QA requirement. If you
would like to see what biometrics do not do the job, go to Parry
Advisory dot com. That's one of our licensees. P A. R r
Y Advisory dot com. Okay tells the story, tells the story of Tom.
Tom has a phone, It checks his facial image, it takes his
checks this by his fingerprint and quite secure. But Tom goes out and buys
another eighty eighty people and the biometrics are quite secure, they work well,
and Tom recks up. That's hard after credit cards, and he keeps keeps
up the payments, so they all have good credit scores until something like two
thousand and eight happens again things get a little tight these sides. Okay,
I'm going to get rid of these eighty fictitious people and the debts that they
owe to all of these merchants and banks. And that's when we we've discovered
the real cost of synthetic identities when we have another serious downturn. Mm.
Yeah, this stuff, I mean, it does keep me up at night.
I'm not gonna lie. I worry about this stuff. I check my
bank account every single day, and I'm glad I do, because you find
bad stuff in there. I had someone packed in there and was ostensibly buying
Google Ads, but I noticed something kind of interesting. He was listed in
the bank transaction as from Google Ads from Google dot coo instead of Google dot
com. I'm like, well, that's interesting, and this is to me,
it just represents real cajones because to scan someone like that story to tell
you, Eric, I've got a story to tell you about this. You
know, that's another example of eternal vigilance. You know, the solution is
supposed to be eternal vigilance. And there's a prominent company that makes a lot
of money training companies, their clients employees to recognize a fishing attack. So
every year I go to the RSA security conference in San Francisco. Occasionally I
go to the Black Hat as well, and other security conferences, and I
make a habit of something. And this is gonna make me sound terrible,
and that's because I am being terrible. So I have a couple of beers
with a CISSP that is a certified security action, And after a certain point,
after we're really comfortable with each other, I being very disingenuous, We'll
say, you know, I gotta admit I've clicked on a bad attachment,
you know, all over fifty percent of the time, the security expert responds
by saying, yeah, I know, I've done that too. Now,
these are the people who are teaching these great unwashed masses how to how to
not fall into that trap, and they fall into it themselves. So,
you know, talking out of school here. Next time you know, I
go to RSA, I'm going to be I'm gonna have a target on my
back. But it's true. It's absolutely true. We have the solution.
Let us solve the problem for you, Eric, so you don't have to
check your bank account every day, and for all of your your audience members.
Let us solve the problem for it. The solution is old and proven.
It's all about accountability. It's all about you know, the accountability of
identity certificates that carry a measure of their own reliability. We do not yet
have a solution to to quantum. Oh right, yeah. If quantum arrives
with no post quantum cryptography solution, you know, we're we're all going to
back to some sun worshiping garters, you know. Well, And I try
to explain to folks what quantum means, and you know, we were joking
earlier, I think, maybe on the break about the fact that IBM has
been talking about quantum for a long long time now, and we don't know
exactly when this is going to go general availability, and it takes incredible amounts
of energy to cool the system which does this stuff. I mean that they're
talking about having to get close to absolute zero to keep it cool enough to
be able to run to do the things that it does. But in a
digital world. It's ones and zeros, and it's really not even that those
are representations. It's above a threshold and below a threshold, is how I
understand it. But with quantum, it's not just two directions. It could
be thousands of different directions, so it's incredibly complex, but folks will pick
that stuff. After the break, we're talking to Wescust Malt today about authenticity
and certificates and trust and maintaining trust in your online systems. Will be right
back. You're listening to Inside Analysis. Do you own an annuity, either
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org. Welcome back to Inside Analysis. Here's your host Eric Kabanaugh by Folks
Wilks about the Inside Analysis talking to west Kusmall Today about authenticity and security certificates
and the old fashioned mechanisms for securing things, namely having someone signed things digitally.
Of course, now we do have lots of great services out there,
like docu Signed, for example. I'm a huge fan of docu sign.
It's a great way to sign electronically. And you have a third party that's
tracking all this stuff, you have a place to store the information. They're
responsible for keeping tabs on all that kind of stuff. That's good. I
love doc You Signed, because are going to tell you I hate file cabinets.
I hate keeping anything printed that has to be organized. It just drives
me nuts. I don't know if it's an OCD or what, but I've
never liked that. I've never liked having to manually organize objects inside environments.
I just don't like that. So I'd rather have it done digitally. But
I'll bring in West to kind of comment on this. You know, I
would imagine that doc You Signed could be a potential customer for you folks.
Right, So they're out there authenticating yes, this person is signing with that
person. They do it all sorts of different ways by knowing your location.
And I actually wanted to get into this too a bit. You know,
these devices that we have, they have all sorts of technology that manages metadata
around where you are, what browser you're using, actions you've taken. All
these kinds of things go into or baked into, if you will, the
process of digitally signing something. So that's interesting and I think that it is
going to help with the deep fakes two in with fake news. It's these
stories that circulate, Oh here's a photograph. Someone says it's XYZ, turns
out it's not, or turns out the date was wrong, it was years
ago. Things of this nature are all over the place these days online and
I think that in the devices themselves, we have a lot of good tools
that we can use because, for example, and a digital photograph I take
was taken by my digital camera, and in the metadata of the image it
should persist the camera type, the moment at which this was shot. If
geospatial identification is baked in, then the location that was at All these kinds
of things come into play to help my score go up to say this is
authentic, but just tell me a little bit more about your solution and who
your clients would be. Assume that's correct, that docu sign could be a
kind of yours, right, and tell us about that. Eric. Electronic
signatures and digital signatures are two different things. There's one vendor of electronic signature
services that bones up to that fact. Docu sign does not. If you
think about it, all that metadata. How easily is that fate? Well,
not real easily if the amount in question is negligible, but if it's
a seven or eight figure amount, quite easily. I can. I can
you know, I can change the clock in my phone. I can.
I remember the days when you could do that. I used to trick.
I used to trick my machine to keep software running, because you can roll
the clock back on your computer and then launch the application within the window that
would work. We used to do that. You can't do that as much
anymore. They got onto that because it's actually you can't. But that's for
another another conversation. What's the difference between a digital signature and an electronic signature?
Difference? In practice, most providers of electronic signature services use the same
tech as digital signatures. It's not a technical difference. Here is the difference.
In an electronic signature. They rent you an identity for the duration of
the signing, and then after you're done signing whatever you're signing, they use
that identity for someone else. Whereas with a digital signature, it's the pen,
it's the private key inside of your phone that you have control over that
digitally signs. Tell me how you think that even if someone steals your phone,
they have to use those biometrics to get at it. Now, if
you're at if they're a if you're at gunpoint and they're telling you to sign
something, you know, then you can have stress passwords and things like that.
But under all normal circumstances, that signature is not reputable. Now here's
a danger with electronic signatures. They've historically been used for real estate transactions.
P ands on using a phone using docu sign real estate transactions are hard to
repudiate because well ordered set of procedures. Did you actually have a meeting with
this realtor? Did you compare that now with UH with with physical supply chains,
manufacturers, distributors. We sign a deal saying I'm going to take over
the next going to take a million of these widgets at eleven dollars and ninety
two cents apiece. I'm committing to that and then all of a sudden,
my market dries up or a competitor comes along, and I really can't take
a million of them. And I'm I'm really screwed if I look to this.
But oh, it's an electronic signature. I didn't sign that, you
know. Well, yes you did. Here it is right here. Oh
no, okay, prove it. Let's go to court. Prove, prove
to a judge and jury that it was me who signed that, you know.
And that's the problem with electronic signatures. Now it gets worse than that,
because the electronic signature law in the United States basically says any representation digital
representation of a signature is an electronic signature. My sister was a commercial appraiser,
real estate appraiser, and she got out of that business. I don't
I'm not saying this has resected her because she had some clients saying, mm,
you know, I'm I really think my property is worth more than that.
Let me just copy and paste a copy of my signature into this and
raised it by a couple hundred two thousand, you know, And so that
affected her mutation as an impreser, Like, how did she come up with
that venue? You know you no, So electronic signatures are not the same
miss digital signatures. Yes, I do hope that the electronic signatures vendors add
digital signatures. Problem is, it's like the problems the early days of SSL.
Making a site certificate costs nothing and you can sell it for a couple
hundred dollars, right, whereas integrity costs money. You know games that go
behind this site certificate? Is this really your company? Are you really responsible
for the content of this website? Yeah? Okay, how do you do
that? Why are you going to talk to people and take notes and make
sure that that it's for real? It's costly. Its costly and rostly,
you know. And we've trained ourselves over decades now to squeeze labor intensive processes
out of the way we do things. Well here we're I'm sorry we have
to introduce human beings and labor intensive processes into it. But the good part
is case where every single time you engage in a transaction you have to go
to an identity verification vendor, you know, and do knowledge based authentication or
something like that. In this case, you do it once you enroll.
You have your assestation officer takes about twenty minutes. And then that's your property.
You own that credential. You can use it anywhere and it proves your
identity anywhere, and you use it in environments of accountability, which again that's
what building is, right. You get to go into a building and use
the building because you belong there, and there's a reason why you're in there.
There's a reason why you're allowed access to these filing cabinets because they you
know, in the case of moral cues, they know that, oh yeah,
that looks like Eric Havanaugh, and uh, you know, we'll let
him do that. In the digital world, you need to you need that
digital digital certificate and the digital signature. Well, this is very very interesting
stuff. Look this gentleman up online, wes Kuss small and the name of
your company have a couple of different companies. The name of this company is
say it again. Well, the continent where all this takes place is authentic
Verse. So if you go to authentic verse dot net, he's pretty much
see a summary of the whole thing mentor verse dot nets And there's a podcast
bonus segment coming up next. But very interesting stuff. We all want our
stuff to be secure. We want someone taking your stuff. You've been listening
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