WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:07.480 You're right. The information economy as a rod. The world is teeming with 2 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:13.640 innovation as new business models reinvent every industry industry. Inside Analysis is your source 3 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.359 of information and insight about how to make the most of this exciting new era. 4 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:23.600 Learn more and inside analysis dot com, Analysis dot com and now here's 5 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:44.880 your host, Eric Kavanaugh. Keep each other well. Chosen to economy and 6 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.799 very veteran with us today, social media pioneer, someone who's been doing cool 7 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:53.960 stuff on the interwebs for a long time now, back since nineteen hundred and 8 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:57.759 eighty one, something like that way of west pussmall with us. We're going 9 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:00.799 to talk about identity resolution. We're going to talk about deep fakes. We're 10 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:07.120 going to talk about how to ensure that someone really real And of course that's 11 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.000 a very strange question these days. But now we have generative AI being quite 12 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.359 popular. We can thank chat, GPT and open ai for really making it 13 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:21.920 the top story of the last year or surprise technology specifically in artificial intelligence, 14 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.319 but of course it's not the only kind of asind of artificial intelligence, they're 15 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:30.439 used for maybe different problem, because authenticity really matters. Who are you? 16 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.439 How do we know you are? Who you say you are. That's really 17 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:37.560 important when conducting business, for sure, it's very important when collecting money, 18 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:44.359 when delivering services, and the interwebs these days are pretty robust and pretty replete 19 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:49.079 with transactions and all kinds of interesting things happening. So with that, West, 20 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.920 let me introduce you to our audience. And like I said, you've 21 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.599 been doing cool things for over forty years. You launched the world's first online 22 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.840 encyclopedia, you said, a nine eighty one, and that moved in the 23 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:06.480 direction of early social media in nineteen eighty two. That's a long time ago 24 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:08.360 to be doing that kind of stuff. And these days, of course you're 25 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:14.520 working on identity resolution and authenticity. So it tell us a bit about yourself 26 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:17.439 and your work and what this PKAI is all about. Well, it's a 27 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:23.319 pleasure to be here, Eric, thank you for inviting me. Yeah, 28 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:30.439 as as we were discussing earlier, we have a PKI. The Authenticity Institute 29 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:40.719 provides a PKI platform. Now PKI is known to your listeners as a public 30 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:51.639 key infrastructure. We have a version of PKI that's a subset of that really, 31 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.800 so we call it puzzle Kit Infrastructure. We feel that's a better more 32 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:06.639 descriptive version of what PKI stands for. And if you'd like, I can 33 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.680 run through the basics of HOWARD works. Yeah, yeah, And this is 34 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:15.800 all about authenticity. It's all about authentication really, So tell us how it 35 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.960 works and what it does, and how it's different maybe from some other similar 36 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:27.520 solutions. Well, it's all about digital certificates. Now in we use PKI, 37 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:30.400 a stripped down version of PKI all the time. Whenever you go to 38 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:37.240 a website that starts with HGTPS, whenever you use signed code, which is 39 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:43.360 most of the code we use these days, it's digitally signed. But these 40 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:53.159 certificates can identify just about anything a server, a code. Howard p KI 41 00:03:53.520 --> 00:04:02.439 starts with the premise that the only only fundamentally useful certificate, or the important 42 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:10.719 certificate, is the personal identity certificate. Everything is tied to a human being. 43 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:16.120 If you need a server certificate, a blood site certificate, well it 44 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:23.519 should be digitally signed, not only by the certification authority that is like city 45 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:30.920 Hall from you know, a vital records department. It should be digitally signed 46 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:39.639 by an identifiable human being that takes personal responds, somebody there who takes responsibility 47 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:44.639 for that and isn't that the way the physical world works. You and I 48 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:49.120 are both sitting in buildings, and I know, without looking into it at 49 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:53.600 all, I know that the building you're in like the building I'm in, 50 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:58.560 and the like the building that every one of our listeners who's not outdoors is 51 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.439 in. Every one of our buildings has an occupancy permit, and that occupancy 52 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:11.600 permit is signed by an untractor and a building inspector and often a structural engineer 53 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:15.480 as well. That means you and I don't have to worry about the building 54 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:19.480 falling down on our heads when we walk into it. We just we just 55 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:24.279 go around with the confidence. You know, most people don't even know that 56 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:30.439 there's this methodology that is protecting them everywhere on Earth, but one particular country 57 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:41.319 that is a Newish country where they haven't gotten around to building codes and occupancy 58 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:46.759 permits yet. And that's a country where, notably, a couple of factories 59 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:54.519 have fallen down and killed people. So we have this methodology from the physical 60 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:59.959 world, we're simply importing it to the digital world. So what we're doing 61 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:06.879 doing where we view the web as a wonderful collection of outdoor spaces, but 62 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:12.519 when we use these outdoor spaces. For instance, when we do our banking 63 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:15.959 on an outdoor billboard, I have to ask whose idea was that. Why 64 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:21.000 don't we have buildings. Where are the bounded indoor spaces? Where are the 65 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:30.439 What is a building but a set of accountability spaces? Right? You tend 66 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.079 to know who's in a room with you. That's the whole purpose of a 67 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:39.439 building, besides, you know, keeping the rain off your head and providing 68 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:45.480 a nice climate. It's about accountability. Rooms are designated for certain purposes. 69 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:53.920 People can't just walk into your home or if to get into your office, 70 00:06:53.959 --> 00:07:00.399 they have to go to a lobby receptionists that they're a visitor. If not, 71 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:04.040 they have it's all about accountability. Ability. Well, you can't really 72 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:10.560 have a lot of accountability outdoors. That's the nature of outdoors. It's a 73 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.800 wonderful place. But yeah, there's a reason why we don't have our meetings 74 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.720 by the side of the information by the side of the highway. We do 75 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:23.439 have our meetings by the side of the information highway and there and why's the 76 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:28.240 problem? Well, and so you've mentioned a couple of things that are worthy 77 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.639 of digging into. Who's on your network? How do you know who's on 78 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.079 your network. I mean, you go to any coffee shop these days in 79 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.160 any major city and you look at the different networks that are available, and 80 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.000 they are like twenty to fifty of them of people all around. Now they're 81 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.720 almost all security these days. I'm old enough to remember when many of them 82 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:49.199 weren't even secure. There's no pass where there's open, secure spacis you know 83 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:54.800 who's out there. And you mentioned also like mail certificates, email certificates, 84 00:07:54.839 --> 00:08:00.519 who's who, who's allowed to email me? You think about the complexity of 85 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:05.319 the landscape these days, the number of companies who are sending emails, the 86 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:09.399 number of people who have email. I mean, Slack arguably came out of 87 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.600 the blue because of the trouble of dealing with email and dealing with tons and 88 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.680 tons of emails and wanting threads and wanting to be able to quickly search through 89 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:22.000 all of that, and at the at the foundation of all of these transactions, 90 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.399 you want some kind of certificate. A lot of people understand an SSL 91 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.120 to get in your website, so it's secure, but of course nothing is 92 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:33.039 completely secure. So maybe walk us through your vision for this company and why 93 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.559 you felt there was a need for a new PKI and tell us the difference 94 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.240 between a standard PKI and this puzzle that you talk about, well, they 95 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:48.480 are They all involved puzzles. There's no technical difference between our PKI and no 96 00:08:50.159 --> 00:09:01.600 technical difference between our PKI and any site certificate provider. The differences in how 97 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:13.679 identity is established. Son mentioned email s MIME is a technology that's been around 98 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:18.759 for decades. Back up. The solution to all of these things is as 99 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.960 old as you mentioned SSL. It's as old as SSL, it goes back 100 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:30.840 to the seventies. The technical solution, it's just well proven, it's out 101 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:39.039 there. But putting here's the here's the metaphor I use all the time. 102 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:48.120 Bank vault is a secure space, right, but a collection of bank vault 103 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:56.679 construction materials is not a bank vault. You know. You those bank vault 104 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:03.639 construction materials need to be put together in a way that an expert knows, 105 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.639 you know, results in security. And it's actually a rather complex thing because 106 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.919 bank customers enter bank vaults, you know, to get it at their safe 107 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:20.879 deposit boxes. So number one, there needs to be a set of construction 108 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:26.399 methodology, building codes, if you will, and that once once it's been 109 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:33.919 built that responsible individuals says yeah, I'm I'm the signer for DeBold or whoever 110 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:39.200 built it, and says, I actually that this is reliable. That bank 111 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:45.200 fault is viable. So it's not the bank fault construction materials at all. 112 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:50.919 It's nuturing materials. The people who billows and thought it thread seventies, you 113 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.039 know, they did their job, but holy smokes, you can't just throw 114 00:10:54.080 --> 00:11:01.559 a pile of construction materials out on the world. Since when SSL was new, 115 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:05.879 the inventor said, well, we need something called a certification authority. 116 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:15.759 Somebody needs to seeing these certification, these certifications on these websites. What is 117 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:20.960 a certification authority? And basically they the answer they came up with, well, 118 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:26.320 anybody who knows how to run this software on a server can call themselves 119 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.320 a certification authority, you know. And so that resulted in all sorts of 120 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:41.159 problems and people of technology that that people compulsively seem to think a problem results 121 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:46.000 from the use of a technology. It must be the technology that it's the 122 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:50.759 fault, rather than the way it's been deployed. You can't just deploy you 123 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:58.120 know, certification authorities software and say anybody is an authority. And of course 124 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.879 the more people depend on it for real money, you know that, the 125 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:07.200 more incentive there is to corrupt it. Now, I have a little sad 126 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:13.919 We worked in a commercial forty They were going to help us build you know, 127 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:20.720 an authority. You know, we were a little late getting our act 128 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:30.679 together and the company ended up getting sold. And this company was known and 129 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.279 the name of the company was start Com. It was known for its integrity. 130 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:41.879 If you wanted to certificate behind your website represented a company real integrity, 131 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:46.039 you got start com. Well, start Colm was sold to a company that 132 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:54.000 turned out to going to issue you know, corrupt certificates, back date certificates, 133 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.919 and you know, basically leave out the costly integrity part. You know 134 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.639 me honestly, one of my questions to you is that you know you you 135 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.759 lean on SSL. How can you be sure that SSL is doing what it's 136 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.240 supposed to be doing. I mean you have to be a pretty technical person 137 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:15.919 to get into the weeds and really look at log files and understand if it 138 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:20.919 falls apart their toast. But on vetting these various solutions for examples you've got 139 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.879 and sell to someone your new platform, you know, what are some of 140 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:30.519 the hardest questions they ask you, and how you answer those questions. The 141 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:39.840 answer is so probably. People are aware, generally aware that architects are tend 142 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.840 to be pretty well paid. What they're less familiar with is why they're so 143 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:52.159 well paid. And it's not because they get a high hourly rate. It's 144 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:58.519 because they accept liability. You know that if if you if an office, 145 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:05.159 if it's discovered at an office building has secret passageways that don't show up in 146 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:13.759 the drawings that the occupancy permit was issued on, you know that architect is 147 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:22.080 at least going to lose their livelihood if not go to jail. If a 148 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.559 building. Uh, there was a case, very prominent case a few years 149 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:35.879 ago of a skyscraper that was whose occupancy permit was signed off on by a 150 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:41.200 structural engineering firm, very respected structural engineering firm. They almost they never get 151 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:45.039 that wrong, except this one time they did. And now, I mean, 152 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.159 look at look at the solar winds hack. I think that's one of 153 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:54.519 the most devastating that I've come across. Exactly, these very clever masters point 154 00:14:54.840 --> 00:15:01.600 to the point to a digital signature of a huge being in any of the 155 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:11.960 software code that went into not just Solar Winds gets unjustly tagged with the faultfare, 156 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:18.559 but it's the components of a whole supply chain of software. Shouldn't every 157 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:24.360 piece of code in that be digitally signed by someone who takes legal responsibility for 158 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:31.039 it? And I hasten to add this is important about the economics of this. 159 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:39.039 Why would anybody voluntarily put their good name on such a thing. Well, 160 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:41.919 the answer is because they get paid very well. It should be a 161 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:48.559 seven figure income associated with code signing, you know, in other words, 162 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:54.240 I take responsibility, I take personal legal responsibility for this code doing what it's 163 00:15:54.279 --> 00:16:00.240 supposed to do and not having backdoors in it, because that's what happened with 164 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:04.919 Solar when somebody, you know, when a department of a company, and 165 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:11.519 Microsoft has suffered this a few times now. They have code signing certificates out 166 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.320 there that have been intercepted. Well, what do you expect is going to 167 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:22.279 happen when you know the signing of code happens as follows. You know, 168 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.000 well, let's pick that up out the break folks, we're talking all about 169 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.799 cybersecurity, and certificates will be right back. 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Indeed, folks, your host 221 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:53.559 here, Eric Kavanaugh with Wes Kussmaul talking all about identity resolution and certificates and 222 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.839 West has a really good point about how to solve for this whole conundrum of 223 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.240 deep fakes, which is a real challenge. I mean, I have to 224 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.480 tell you think about how you log into your phone. You either use a 225 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:10.039 password or you use biometric. Increasingly we're going to see I think a combination 226 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:15.279 of those things I keep waiting for, and maybe this is happening already companies 227 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:21.480 like Apple and Samsung to appreciate location geospatial data and really take that in as 228 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:25.359 a first class citizen to understand, yes, I'm here on my phone, 229 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:27.920 I'm still at the same location that I've been or I've been with my phones 230 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.759 between now when I travel to the store and back. So it sure looks 231 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:34.960 like it's me to take that into account. Please that I don't have to 232 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.720 always be entering my pass code, which really gets annoying. But you talked 233 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:45.440 about certificates that are measurable, So explain what you mean by that. How 234 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.400 do you measure it? Who measures it? What are the factors taken into 235 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:56.640 account as you measure the reliability of what are these certificates? So not that 236 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:02.920 long ago, I guess eight years ago or so. NISSED the US government 237 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:11.319 formerly the National Bureau of Standards National Institute of Standards of Technology came up with 238 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:21.400 something that they named NISSED eight hundred sixty three, and that is an objective 239 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:30.640 way to measure the reliability of a claim of identity, and it's very the 240 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:41.240 The way they gathered the information is fairly complete. The unfortunately you end up 241 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.880 with a score of one, two or three. So one means self asserted 242 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:53.720 identity, means pretty much useless, Two is a wide range of values. 243 00:22:53.880 --> 00:23:02.240 Are not values not not even just a represents a wide range of confidence, 244 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:07.559 and three means pretty good. If you've got an eight sixty three measure of 245 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:17.359 three, you're pretty reliable. The city of Osmio that I mentioned earlier, 246 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:23.000 which was the municipal charter, took was first written in March seventh, two 247 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:27.039 thousand and five at the ITU headquarters. I who was a unit of the 248 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:37.599 United Nations, has come up with something called OSMO IDQA Identity Quality Assurance and 249 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.680 it measures in eight metrics each on a scale of zero to nine, so 250 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:48.319 you have an aggregate score of zero to seventy two. So that is bound 251 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:56.079 to your identity certificate on a permanent basis. Yes, it can be modified 252 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.279 up or down, but it's still has to be digitally signed by the certification 253 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:07.680 authority. And it starts with for instance, you know, you start with 254 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:14.640 with a total of eight on a scale of zero to seventy two just by 255 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:21.559 doing the old email and SMS verification. And then you can do a liveness 256 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.960 check and you know JUMEO type of things for which will get you up to 257 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:30.359 a twelve. But above that you have to be interviewed by an attestation officer 258 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:37.599 which is a Virginia Remote online notary and she or he is going to ask 259 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.319 you to log into a bank account, show that there's a bank account in 260 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:47.039 your name. Naturally, they're not going to watch track your your password or 261 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:53.480 anything. It's a separate a separate session. But know that there's ease. 262 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.839 That's the sort of thing that's checked that you can also, by the way, 263 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.759 or a face face to face interview. We have a face to face 264 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:11.240 physical face to face interview with an attestation officer. And you know, I 265 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:17.599 can run through the the eight different metrics, but basically each one of them 266 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:22.960 is rated on a scale of zero to nine. And again that's bound to 267 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:30.079 your identities. You assert your identity with an OSMIO identity certificate, which, 268 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:40.720 by the way, that certificate can go behind a a uh PHIDO credential or 269 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:48.519 an open ID credential or pass key credential. There's simply you know, there's 270 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:53.519 something in a certificate called distinguished name, and in that you can put your 271 00:25:55.480 --> 00:26:00.839 you know, your PHIDO ID, and now your certificate stands behind you know 272 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:07.079 your employee ID. For instance, your employee ID, if it uses any 273 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:18.359 of any common protocols, can be backed by an identity certificate that informs the 274 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.039 relying party the degree to which they can rely on that claim of identity. 275 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:27.960 And so for some for some things a real lightweight claim can So for instance, 276 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:32.759 if you're running a blog and you want to permit comments on your blog, 277 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:36.799 and you're gonna have trolls. If you don't, it's not as interesting 278 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.640 this way, digitally signed by anybody with an osmio idea to say, all 279 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:47.559 right, it's just an eight. But trolls aren't going to bother and you 280 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:52.920 know, going through that rigamarole and becoming accountable by the way, they're going 281 00:26:52.960 --> 00:27:00.200 to move on and trash somebody else's blog go up to you know, you 282 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.480 know, a senior state department official is going to need a very high you 283 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:08.599 know, a forty five or fifty on a scale of zero seventy two. 284 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.200 Well, it's funny you mentioned blog comments because I have a couple by loud 285 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.279 comments for not just decided to shut them down because there are just so many 286 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:25.079 spam comments. I mean, and this is one of the real challenges of 287 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.240 doing business in the modern world here is that you have so many bad actors, 288 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.680 and you have accomplished bad actors, slack bad actors, and just everywhere 289 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:38.720 in between of people just peppering websites with nonsense trying to hack into your machines. 290 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.200 This is going to fix it, This will fix it. And when 291 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:48.440 you say this will fix it, you're just talking about having a digital signature 292 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.640 that is backed by both parties. Who you know, who is asking for 293 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.799 the certificate and who is granting the certificate. In this case, that could 294 00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.799 be you and your company granting the certificate. Get to and where do you 295 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.000 like, where do you maintain those? Is that like an a key value 296 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:10.359 store or something, or how does that work? So remember that we were 297 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:15.079 talking about indoors versus outdoors before, right, The whole idea is that the 298 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.480 web is you know, it used to be characterized an information highway and the 299 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:25.720 name really fits. What is a highway but an outdoor public transport system? 300 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:30.119 Right? What are we How do we typically use highways in the physical world. 301 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.440 Typically we use them to go from building to building, from indoor space 302 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:38.240 to indoor space, to account from accountability space. We're not going to make 303 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:44.839 the web an accountability space. That's that's not going to happen. Outdoors is 304 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:52.440 always going to be outdoor accountability spaces. We have fenterverse authentiverse gotten you kid, 305 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.920 I mean ladies and Authenterverse that doesn't have an occupancy permit, and the 306 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:03.720 occupancy permit nobody has to have identity certificate. And you, as the builder 307 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:10.000 or owner inside of authentiverse get to decide the minimum identity quality. But for 308 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:15.240 let's say, a boardroom inside the facility will have a higher score required than 309 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:26.319 you know, the lobby. So it's it's the whole notion. You know 310 00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:33.240 that the assumption has been and this was Tyrner's Lee's vision is freedom and openness, 311 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.559 which is wonderful, and that's the way outdoors should be. That is 312 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:44.720 not the way indoor spaces should be. There's outdoors, there's indoors, and 313 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.559 then of course there's the in between space, you know, the part of 314 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:55.680 the restaurant, the you know, which is called a public accommodation, which 315 00:29:55.960 --> 00:30:02.759 does in authentiverse. You're you're you are still are required to have a certificate, 316 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:11.279 but but you know, no no I d QA requirement. If you 317 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:18.039 would like to see what biometrics do not do the job, go to Parry 318 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:23.000 Advisory dot com. That's one of our licensees. P A. R r 319 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:33.960 Y Advisory dot com. Okay tells the story, tells the story of Tom. 320 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:40.559 Tom has a phone, It checks his facial image, it takes his 321 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:48.000 checks this by his fingerprint and quite secure. But Tom goes out and buys 322 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:53.000 another eighty eighty people and the biometrics are quite secure, they work well, 323 00:30:53.519 --> 00:31:00.640 and Tom recks up. That's hard after credit cards, and he keeps keeps 324 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:06.559 up the payments, so they all have good credit scores until something like two 325 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:11.680 thousand and eight happens again things get a little tight these sides. Okay, 326 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:17.839 I'm going to get rid of these eighty fictitious people and the debts that they 327 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:25.119 owe to all of these merchants and banks. And that's when we we've discovered 328 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:30.039 the real cost of synthetic identities when we have another serious downturn. Mm. 329 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:34.599 Yeah, this stuff, I mean, it does keep me up at night. 330 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:37.119 I'm not gonna lie. I worry about this stuff. I check my 331 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.480 bank account every single day, and I'm glad I do, because you find 332 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:47.359 bad stuff in there. I had someone packed in there and was ostensibly buying 333 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:51.559 Google Ads, but I noticed something kind of interesting. He was listed in 334 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.640 the bank transaction as from Google Ads from Google dot coo instead of Google dot 335 00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:00.400 com. I'm like, well, that's interesting, and this is to me, 336 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:08.240 it just represents real cajones because to scan someone like that story to tell 337 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:10.480 you, Eric, I've got a story to tell you about this. You 338 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:15.440 know, that's another example of eternal vigilance. You know, the solution is 339 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:21.519 supposed to be eternal vigilance. And there's a prominent company that makes a lot 340 00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:30.039 of money training companies, their clients employees to recognize a fishing attack. So 341 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:35.880 every year I go to the RSA security conference in San Francisco. Occasionally I 342 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:39.920 go to the Black Hat as well, and other security conferences, and I 343 00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:44.039 make a habit of something. And this is gonna make me sound terrible, 344 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.680 and that's because I am being terrible. So I have a couple of beers 345 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:52.640 with a CISSP that is a certified security action, And after a certain point, 346 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:59.400 after we're really comfortable with each other, I being very disingenuous, We'll 347 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.079 say, you know, I gotta admit I've clicked on a bad attachment, 348 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:07.880 you know, all over fifty percent of the time, the security expert responds 349 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:12.119 by saying, yeah, I know, I've done that too. Now, 350 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:19.559 these are the people who are teaching these great unwashed masses how to how to 351 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:25.559 not fall into that trap, and they fall into it themselves. So, 352 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.319 you know, talking out of school here. Next time you know, I 353 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:34.319 go to RSA, I'm going to be I'm gonna have a target on my 354 00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:38.079 back. But it's true. It's absolutely true. We have the solution. 355 00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.599 Let us solve the problem for you, Eric, so you don't have to 356 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:46.599 check your bank account every day, and for all of your your audience members. 357 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:51.400 Let us solve the problem for it. The solution is old and proven. 358 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:57.359 It's all about accountability. It's all about you know, the accountability of 359 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:01.799 identity certificates that carry a measure of their own reliability. We do not yet 360 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:16.000 have a solution to to quantum. Oh right, yeah. If quantum arrives 361 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:22.400 with no post quantum cryptography solution, you know, we're we're all going to 362 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:29.760 back to some sun worshiping garters, you know. Well, And I try 363 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.800 to explain to folks what quantum means, and you know, we were joking 364 00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.719 earlier, I think, maybe on the break about the fact that IBM has 365 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.800 been talking about quantum for a long long time now, and we don't know 366 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:45.519 exactly when this is going to go general availability, and it takes incredible amounts 367 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:52.159 of energy to cool the system which does this stuff. I mean that they're 368 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.960 talking about having to get close to absolute zero to keep it cool enough to 369 00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:59.119 be able to run to do the things that it does. But in a 370 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.519 digital world. It's ones and zeros, and it's really not even that those 371 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:07.079 are representations. It's above a threshold and below a threshold, is how I 372 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.079 understand it. But with quantum, it's not just two directions. It could 373 00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:15.800 be thousands of different directions, so it's incredibly complex, but folks will pick 374 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:19.480 that stuff. After the break, we're talking to Wescust Malt today about authenticity 375 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.519 and certificates and trust and maintaining trust in your online systems. Will be right 376 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:30.760 back. You're listening to Inside Analysis. Do you own an annuity, either 377 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:35.519 fixed, rate, indexed or variable? Are you paying high fees and getting 378 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.519 low returns? If so, Annuity General would like you to have this free 379 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:43.679 book to learn the pitfalls and mistakes of buying an annuity. 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Here's your host Eric Kabanaugh by Folks 428 00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:45.559 Wilks about the Inside Analysis talking to west Kusmall Today about authenticity and security certificates 429 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:52.960 and the old fashioned mechanisms for securing things, namely having someone signed things digitally. 430 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:55.119 Of course, now we do have lots of great services out there, 431 00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:59.320 like docu Signed, for example. I'm a huge fan of docu sign. 432 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:04.000 It's a great way to sign electronically. And you have a third party that's 433 00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:07.519 tracking all this stuff, you have a place to store the information. They're 434 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:10.599 responsible for keeping tabs on all that kind of stuff. That's good. I 435 00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:15.039 love doc You Signed, because are going to tell you I hate file cabinets. 436 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.239 I hate keeping anything printed that has to be organized. It just drives 437 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.719 me nuts. I don't know if it's an OCD or what, but I've 438 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:28.519 never liked that. I've never liked having to manually organize objects inside environments. 439 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:31.800 I just don't like that. So I'd rather have it done digitally. But 440 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:36.039 I'll bring in West to kind of comment on this. You know, I 441 00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.800 would imagine that doc You Signed could be a potential customer for you folks. 442 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.840 Right, So they're out there authenticating yes, this person is signing with that 443 00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:46.639 person. They do it all sorts of different ways by knowing your location. 444 00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:50.400 And I actually wanted to get into this too a bit. You know, 445 00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:55.480 these devices that we have, they have all sorts of technology that manages metadata 446 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.199 around where you are, what browser you're using, actions you've taken. All 447 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:04.719 these kinds of things go into or baked into, if you will, the 448 00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:08.840 process of digitally signing something. So that's interesting and I think that it is 449 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:13.239 going to help with the deep fakes two in with fake news. It's these 450 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.440 stories that circulate, Oh here's a photograph. Someone says it's XYZ, turns 451 00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:20.119 out it's not, or turns out the date was wrong, it was years 452 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:23.559 ago. Things of this nature are all over the place these days online and 453 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:29.320 I think that in the devices themselves, we have a lot of good tools 454 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:31.960 that we can use because, for example, and a digital photograph I take 455 00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:37.719 was taken by my digital camera, and in the metadata of the image it 456 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:45.239 should persist the camera type, the moment at which this was shot. If 457 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:49.840 geospatial identification is baked in, then the location that was at All these kinds 458 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:52.719 of things come into play to help my score go up to say this is 459 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.320 authentic, but just tell me a little bit more about your solution and who 460 00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:00.719 your clients would be. Assume that's correct, that docu sign could be a 461 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:07.039 kind of yours, right, and tell us about that. Eric. Electronic 462 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:15.199 signatures and digital signatures are two different things. There's one vendor of electronic signature 463 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:22.440 services that bones up to that fact. Docu sign does not. If you 464 00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:27.599 think about it, all that metadata. How easily is that fate? Well, 465 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:36.639 not real easily if the amount in question is negligible, but if it's 466 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:42.599 a seven or eight figure amount, quite easily. I can. I can 467 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:52.360 you know, I can change the clock in my phone. I can. 468 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.039 I remember the days when you could do that. I used to trick. 469 00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:58.920 I used to trick my machine to keep software running, because you can roll 470 00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.920 the clock back on your computer and then launch the application within the window that 471 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:05.239 would work. We used to do that. You can't do that as much 472 00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:09.000 anymore. They got onto that because it's actually you can't. But that's for 473 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:17.039 another another conversation. What's the difference between a digital signature and an electronic signature? 474 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:28.679 Difference? In practice, most providers of electronic signature services use the same 475 00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:35.920 tech as digital signatures. It's not a technical difference. Here is the difference. 476 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.960 In an electronic signature. They rent you an identity for the duration of 477 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:45.679 the signing, and then after you're done signing whatever you're signing, they use 478 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:52.800 that identity for someone else. Whereas with a digital signature, it's the pen, 479 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:58.679 it's the private key inside of your phone that you have control over that 480 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.360 digitally signs. Tell me how you think that even if someone steals your phone, 481 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:07.599 they have to use those biometrics to get at it. Now, if 482 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:13.519 you're at if they're a if you're at gunpoint and they're telling you to sign 483 00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.920 something, you know, then you can have stress passwords and things like that. 484 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:27.920 But under all normal circumstances, that signature is not reputable. Now here's 485 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:34.480 a danger with electronic signatures. They've historically been used for real estate transactions. 486 00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:44.679 P ands on using a phone using docu sign real estate transactions are hard to 487 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:52.119 repudiate because well ordered set of procedures. Did you actually have a meeting with 488 00:44:52.159 --> 00:45:04.039 this realtor? Did you compare that now with UH with with physical supply chains, 489 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:14.760 manufacturers, distributors. We sign a deal saying I'm going to take over 490 00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:22.639 the next going to take a million of these widgets at eleven dollars and ninety 491 00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:27.559 two cents apiece. I'm committing to that and then all of a sudden, 492 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.760 my market dries up or a competitor comes along, and I really can't take 493 00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:37.000 a million of them. And I'm I'm really screwed if I look to this. 494 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:43.920 But oh, it's an electronic signature. I didn't sign that, you 495 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:45.719 know. Well, yes you did. Here it is right here. Oh 496 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.039 no, okay, prove it. Let's go to court. Prove, prove 497 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.480 to a judge and jury that it was me who signed that, you know. 498 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:58.280 And that's the problem with electronic signatures. Now it gets worse than that, 499 00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:07.239 because the electronic signature law in the United States basically says any representation digital 500 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:17.280 representation of a signature is an electronic signature. My sister was a commercial appraiser, 501 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:22.239 real estate appraiser, and she got out of that business. I don't 502 00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:28.280 I'm not saying this has resected her because she had some clients saying, mm, 503 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:31.760 you know, I'm I really think my property is worth more than that. 504 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.599 Let me just copy and paste a copy of my signature into this and 505 00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:45.440 raised it by a couple hundred two thousand, you know, And so that 506 00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:52.320 affected her mutation as an impreser, Like, how did she come up with 507 00:46:52.360 --> 00:47:00.000 that venue? You know you no, So electronic signatures are not the same 508 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:07.920 miss digital signatures. Yes, I do hope that the electronic signatures vendors add 509 00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:13.800 digital signatures. Problem is, it's like the problems the early days of SSL. 510 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.639 Making a site certificate costs nothing and you can sell it for a couple 511 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:24.360 hundred dollars, right, whereas integrity costs money. You know games that go 512 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:30.719 behind this site certificate? Is this really your company? Are you really responsible 513 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:35.440 for the content of this website? Yeah? Okay, how do you do 514 00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:38.760 that? Why are you going to talk to people and take notes and make 515 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:45.719 sure that that it's for real? It's costly. Its costly and rostly, 516 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:55.039 you know. And we've trained ourselves over decades now to squeeze labor intensive processes 517 00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:59.840 out of the way we do things. Well here we're I'm sorry we have 518 00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:04.840 to introduce human beings and labor intensive processes into it. But the good part 519 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:09.360 is case where every single time you engage in a transaction you have to go 520 00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:15.440 to an identity verification vendor, you know, and do knowledge based authentication or 521 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:20.639 something like that. In this case, you do it once you enroll. 522 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:25.960 You have your assestation officer takes about twenty minutes. And then that's your property. 523 00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:31.320 You own that credential. You can use it anywhere and it proves your 524 00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:39.440 identity anywhere, and you use it in environments of accountability, which again that's 525 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:45.559 what building is, right. You get to go into a building and use 526 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:49.199 the building because you belong there, and there's a reason why you're in there. 527 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:54.239 There's a reason why you're allowed access to these filing cabinets because they you 528 00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:58.280 know, in the case of moral cues, they know that, oh yeah, 529 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:02.199 that looks like Eric Havanaugh, and uh, you know, we'll let 530 00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:07.119 him do that. In the digital world, you need to you need that 531 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:13.159 digital digital certificate and the digital signature. Well, this is very very interesting 532 00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.559 stuff. Look this gentleman up online, wes Kuss small and the name of 533 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:20.079 your company have a couple of different companies. The name of this company is 534 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:27.519 say it again. Well, the continent where all this takes place is authentic 535 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.760 Verse. So if you go to authentic verse dot net, he's pretty much 536 00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:37.079 see a summary of the whole thing mentor verse dot nets And there's a podcast 537 00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:38.920 bonus segment coming up next. But very interesting stuff. We all want our 538 00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:43.440 stuff to be secure. We want someone taking your stuff. You've been listening 539 00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:47.719 to Inside Analysis and then no, I'm Leslie, Riley Counties in which there 540 00:49:47.800 --> 00:51:22.239 is no hospital offering obstetric care, no birth center and no obstetric We supply 541 00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:30.000 the words you paint the picture k c A. A early diagnosis of breast 542 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.400 cancer is the key to survival. Test today. 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Tune into the 618 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:13.039 Mortgage Voice every Saturday afternoon at three and Sunday at noon here on casey AA 619 00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:19.519 ten fifty am and one six point five FM. Bob La Here with my 620 00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:22.320 home improvement tip of the day. Though garage doors do a pretty good job 621 00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:25.840 of keeping bad guys away from your car, they're not so good at keeping 622 00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:30.679 out the elements. That's especially true of the floor in your garage is uneven. 623 00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:34.840 What to do Try this. Open the garage door so that the bottom 624 00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:37.840 is about head high. Cut a length of three quarter inch foam pipe insulation 625 00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:42.920 to fit the width of the door. Then position the insulation against the bottom 626 00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.920 of the door with the slit facing down. Next spread the slit in the 627 00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:50.880 insulation and use a screw gun or electric drill to attach the insulation to the 628 00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:53.480 bottom of the door. To keep the screws from tearing through the insulation, 629 00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:58.519 you'll probably want to add washers around the heads of the screws. Pipe insulation 630 00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:01.280 doesn't exactly add to appeal, so if you don't want it poking out the 631 00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:05.599 bottom of the door so it's visible from the street, just drive your screws 632 00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:08.079 a little more towards the backside of the door than the front. Get more 633 00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:13.320 info at bobyla dot com and right here at halt with me, Boby Dount. 634 00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.639 The benefits of adding a Ritchie to your operation extend far beyond saving you 635 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:28.559 time, money, and water. By choosing Ritchie, you'll conserve water, 636 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:34.960 protect the land, reduce energy, and promote a healthier environment for generations to 637 00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:39.239 come. Because we know, like you know, that every save drop matters. 638 00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:45.360 Start a ripple effect of sustainability today by visiting ritchie fount dot com, 639 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:52.119 slash sustainability Listena KCAA Little Melinda at one oh six point five FMK two ninety 640 00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:59.360 three c F Burrito Valley NBC News Radio, I'm Chris Garragio. How Speaker 641 00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:02.159 Kevin mccar mary says good progress is being made in talks to avoid a government's 642 01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:07.119 shutdown. Speaking on Fox News Sunday, he added that he's never seen anyone 643 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:08.519 win a shutdown. McCarthy faces challenge